WEBVTT - Mystery Cults, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.320 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:16.440 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.720 And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.480 two in our discussion of the mystery religions or mystery 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:27.480 cults of the Ancient Mediterranean. Mystery cult is a category 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.840 used by scholars to refer to worship systems in the 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.680 ancient Greco Roman world that were centered around powerful, intense 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:44.080 experiences of secretive mystic rights revealed only to the cult's initiates. Now, 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.520 in part one of the series, we talked mainly about 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.400 the historical context of these rights and some about how 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.600 they overlapped with and differed from the most common religious 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.440 practices of Greek and Roman polytheism. We also talked about 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.760 a book that is going to be one of our 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.120 major background sources in these episodes. That is a book 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.720 called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World by Hugh Bowden, 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:11.640 who is an ancient historian at King's College, London. This 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.080 book was published by Thamson Hudson. The edition both Rob 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.560 and I were reading is the one from twenty twenty three. 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.200 There was an older edition before that, and today we 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.200 wanted to come back and get a little bit deeper 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.920 into the mysteries by going beyond the general and looking 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.440 at a couple of specific examples. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.120 Yeah, and I feel like one of the really interesting 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.319 things about these various mystery cults is that a lot 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:41.199 of the mysteries really do remain, in part because any 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.480 knowledge that we have of the ancient world is incomplete, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.520 at least to some degree. But also these guys were 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.920 just really good at keeping their mysteries intact in some cases, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.760 and what went on behind closed doors remained behind closed doors, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.760 and we just have to speculate regarding that details of 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.160 what say, initiation rights consisted of and what they meant, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.880 both in terms of like personal meaning to the initiate, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.520 but also within like the sort of the larger like 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.680 worldview of the particular cult. 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:15.640 That's right, and we do know a lot of things, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.720 especially about the more public aspects of the mystery religions, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.200 because they often had a kind of you know, public 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.640 facing elements and then the hidden elements. And it's particularly 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.400 those those secretive hidden elements that you know they are. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.240 There are many cases where we still don't really know 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.680 today what they were about We may have some claims 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.440 from the ancient world, we may have some pieces of evidence, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.519 but yeah, a lot of mysteries remain. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:41.760 Though. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.960 One thing I do want to mention, it's something we 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.880 got into in the last episode, is a bit of 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:51.640 clarification on the role of mystery in mystery religion, because 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.800 that can be somewhat misleading and could maybe cause people 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.799 to think about the idea of a mystery cult as 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.040 a religion where the the main goal is to solve 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.960 a kind of information puzzle. It's like to get the 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.560 hidden answer to a question, and that really doesn't seem 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.000 to be what these mystery religions were primarily about. They 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.919 had very elements that we could absolutely call mysterious. There 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.840 were secret rights, there were secret sacred objects that were 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:21.840 hidden from view, and all you know, you could only 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.280 see what they were if you were initiated. But the 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.960 main goal of these religions was, especially as argued by 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.720 Bowden in this book, we've been talking about, not primarily 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:35.400 to solve an information puzzle and like learn the secret, 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.680 but instead it was to have a profound experience to 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.680 take part in these mystic rights, these secret rights that 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.280 would cause some kind of experience or encounter directly with 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:49.600 the power of the gods. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.000 So mystery very much in the sense of the Beatles 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.720 album from sixty seven, The Magical Mystery Tour. 0:03:58.440 --> 0:03:59.920 I don't know what sense that would be. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.800 Well, I don't think it really revolves around the particular 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.520 puzzle or a particular mystery is there, But it's more, 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.720 you know, versed in psychedelic weirdness and yeah, yeah, and 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.760 perhaps cryptic meaning. I mean, I am the Walrus, right, 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.120 What are we to make of this song? What are 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.120 we to make of the imagery associated with it? 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.640 I remember way back when I first heard that, I 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.560 was much younger, and the line about the like yellow 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.680 custard dripping from a dead dog's eye seemed especially unbeatlesy 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:29.000 to me. 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.680 They get pretty weird, they get pretty weird. There's kind 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.479 of the Beatles that you think you know and associate with, 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.800 sort of the mainstream understanding of the Beatles, But then 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:41.960 you can really dig into. 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.080 Some weird stuff in there as well, no doubt. 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.320 But setting aside the mysteries of the Beatles, I would 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.280 like to turn our attention now to the mysteries of mithraism. 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:54.960 We mentioned, you know, in the last episode, we're talking 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.279 very much about the Greco Roman world, and this is 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.479 definitely one from the Roman world. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.400 Right, this is one coming later on the scene than 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.880 most of the other examples will we'll end up talking. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.159 About right, Right, we're talking the first through the fourth 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:12.560 century CE, so it's taking off alongside another brand new religion, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.240 that of the way, centered around the teachings of Jesus Christ. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.920 This would of course come to be known as Christianity 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:23.440 at least by like one hundred CE. But this is 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.479 where I should I should throw out that we have 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:30.360 of course mentioned Mithraism in passing or in a few 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:35.159 details on the show. In the past. We mentioned mithra 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.680 in our Hogs of Hell episode as well as in 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.840 our episodes on Whistling. As I mentioned then, fans of 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.520 the Ridley Scott produced sci fi series Raised by Wolves, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.719 which ran twenty twenty through twenty twenty two, we'll also 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:54.080 remember the name as in the fictional future of this series, 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.840 it is the predominant religion that is practiced by one 0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.800 of the key factions in that show. So sort of 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.680 like an alternate future where instead of perhaps Christianity taking 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:09.760 off as this influential human religion, what if Mithraism is 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:14.799 the religion that took off and ended up defining a civilization. 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.640 Rob, would it be fair to say, based on what 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.640 you've read that it's kind of shocking how little we 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.760 know about Mythraism with certainty, given how popular it was 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.480 during its heyday in the Roman Empire. 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.600 Yeah, that's that is something that impressed me as well, 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.839 because we're not talking about something that was just practiced 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.400 by say like a few elites, you know, in the 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.000 basement of a palace here and there, or something to 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.440 that effect, or a few deranged cultists to sort of 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.839 imagine the again the sort of Kolakuthulu dungeons and dragons 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.839 treatment of cults. Now, this was this was widely practiced 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.719 during this time period again, first through fourth century CE, 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:58.000 and it was wildly popular, especially in the Roman army. 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.200 H And wherever the Roman army went, so too traveled 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.480 the mystery cult of Mithra, with its temples popping up 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.520 just throughout the Roman Empire of the time, as far 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.600 north as the British Isles. And we have a surviving 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.600 archaeological evidence all these special temples, which we'll get back 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.960 to in a bit, and we can piece together some 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.400 of what went on. Now. One of the interesting things 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.440 here that we're going to dig into here is, of course, 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:31.000 the idea that we have a religion, a cult an 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:35.240 organization here, and its ideas are based on pre existing 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:42.120 religious ideas. And for a while, the way historians interpreted 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.520 it was to go back to some of the myths 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.160 that informed Roman mythraism and use that to try and 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.240 piece together what Roman mythraism was all about. So I 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.040 want you to keep that in mind as I read 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.840 a quote here from an older source. This is from 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.760 will Durant Caesar and Christ from nineteen forty four, in 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.720 which he writes that during the period of roughly thirty 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.680 CE through ninety six CE, one sees a great influx 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.680 of foreign faiths and to Rome and Roman life, and 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.760 these faiths, he writes, enter into Rome via returning soldiers, 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.360 war captives, and also merchants. A lot of people are 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.480 coming in and out of Rome. People brought their traditional 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.840 gods with them, and he writes that quote. The Roman 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.320 government treated these alien faiths for the most part with toleration. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.480 Since it would not permit foreigners to its own worship, 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.280 it preferred that they should practice their imported rights rather 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.640 than have no religion at all. In return, it required 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.680 that each new faith should exercise a similar tolerance towards 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.680 other creeds, and should include in its ritual sum obsessence 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.560 to the Emperor's genius and the goddess Roma as an 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.480 expression of loyalty to the state. So we touched on 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.440 this before that. Generally the Romans were like, fine, you 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.360 practice whatever faith you already had or have or have 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.400 brought with you. Just make sure that it's you know, 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.240 checking off the right boxes and you know, not messing 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:08.560 up anything we have going on at the top. 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.680 Not questioning our authority. I don't think that the Roman 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.680 rule on this should be seen as generally merciful, because 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.880 the Roman Empire for the large part, was not very merciful. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.480 It was more like they didn't really care about this. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.520 Their idea of religion was not an evangelical one, and 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:28.560 they were not trying to convince other people to follow it. Instead, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.560 it was just like, you need to obey us and 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.559 not cause problems otherwise, practice whatever you want. 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.120 Right, Yeah, I think that's a fair way of understanding it. Yeah, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.120 And we don't need to lean into some idea that 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.160 the Roman the Roman authorities were just in general super tolerant. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.480 But in this respect, you know, you can make an 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.160 argument that, okay, they kind of were, but only because 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:50.720 they didn't care what you're doing, as long as you 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.880 didn't upset the order of things. And in this section 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:01.319 of the book by Durant, he does mention Mithra. In Mithraism, 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.440 he writes, from hostile Parthia came the cult of another 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.600 sudden god, Mithras. Its devotees were enlisted as soldiers in 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.079 the great cosmic war of light against darkness, of good 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.160 against evil. It was a virile faith that won men 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.480 rather than women, and pleased the Roman legions stationed on 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.080 distant frontiers where they could hardly hear the voices of 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.400 their native gods. So already that's a lot to unpack. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.920 We have this again, this the nineteen forty four text. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.840 But the interpretation that Durant here seems to be making 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.400 is that of a foreign mystery cult taken up almost 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.880 exclusively by male Roman soldiers, and worshiped in every far 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.840 flung corner of the Roman controlled territory. Perhaps some deity 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.200 and faith that cast the role of the enlisted not 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.000 as mere protectors of Rome, but perhaps his warriors and 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.360 some sort of epic struggle against the darkness. All right, 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.200 So that was nineteen forty four's interpretation. But where are 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.920 we at now, So into Hugh Bowden's mystery Cults in 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.680 the Ancient World, which we've been looking at here, the 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.760 author does have a lot to say about Mithraism, but 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.200 as is often the case with some of these mystery cults, 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.160 there's a lot we don't know and we'll never know 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.280 concerning the details of the faith. And it seems like 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.280 the trend he says, for a while was to try 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:27.800 and use information regarding ancient worship of Mithra in ancient 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:34.000 Iran in the interpretations of this Indo Iranian faith as 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.480 a way to try and figure out what Roman Mythraism 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.760 was about. Because, to be clear, there was worship of 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.439 a deity known as Mithra in ancient Iran and accounts 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:47.760 date back to at least fourteen hundred bcee. And then 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.520 eventually Mithra becomes the central figure of these Roman mystery 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.800 cults of Mithraism, the details of which again are not 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.840 all that forthcoming, but we do have some literary references, 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.800 we have archaeological evidence, some of it fairly recent, you know, 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.959 and we also have some artistic imagery that has survived, 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:10.160 and from this a fair number of conclusions can be drawn. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.560 But the current predominant interpretation, according to Bowden, is that 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.800 the cult of Mithra in the Roman Empire was something 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.720 mostly new. It was for the most part for Romans 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:28.320 and by Romans, despite these Persian motifs that were applied 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.240 to it. So in previous decades, again, it was common 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.719 for historians to try and piece together the details of Mithraism, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.319 based in part on aspects of the ancient Indo Iranian 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.240 religion centered around Mithra, but current trends tend to dismiss this. 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.040 So in Bowden's chapter on Mithraism, he doesn't mention anything 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.120 about soldiers of light against darkness. I'm to assume that 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:54.480 perhaps that's something that previously historians drug in from the 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.199 more ancient model of Mithra's worship. 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.440 You know, you can very much see the appeal of 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.520 that older interpretive lens, which tries to figure out what 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.240 a religion means by searching out the earliest versions of it. 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:12.160 Because we tend to think about the primacy of originals 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.920 like originals in time, you know, we've talked about this 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.080 coming up before on the podcast when we were talking 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.200 about Greek myths. We're trying to find, like, what's the 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.480 earliest written version of this so that we can know 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.440 what the real version of the myth is, you know, 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.360 but that's not actually the real version of the myth. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.880 And finding maybe the earliest version that was written down 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.040 that we still have access to and does not tell 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.960 you how people hundreds of years later, in a different 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.520 time in place understood the story or what it meant. 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.160 It just you know that, I mean, it is worth 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.520 knowing that tells you one thing, but it doesn't necessarily 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.720 tell you that thing. And so searching out what myth, 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.400 what a god or a religious figure mint in one 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.080 time and place, even though it came earlier, that doesn't 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.240 necessarily tell you what it meant to people in a 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.160 different time in a different place. And I think this 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.240 is still true today. I think actually, say, if you 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.560 just went to the New Testament and read the Gospels 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.400 and then tried to read from those and predict what 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.040 form Christianity would take as practiced, say in the United 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.480 States in the twenty first century, you'd be so far off. 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.720 You have no idea what to predict from that. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.160 Yeah, yeah, and I think we can point to examples 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.600 of this and other major religions as well, and also elsewhere. 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.760 I instantly thought to Dracula, perhaps because I had Dracula 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.120 on the mind a lot recently. But it's like, imagine 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.560 you were to examine the text known as Dracula three thousand. 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.560 Let's see what year did Dracula three thousand come out? 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.520 You think I know off the top of my head. 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:50.840 Yeah, I expect you to two thousand and four. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.000 Okay, okay, okay, that sounds right. 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.880 So imagine you watch a Dracula three thousand and then 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.280 you were like, I wish to understand what this film 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.280 is trying to say. I am going to read this 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:06.200 book by brim Stoker Dracula, and that shall answer all 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.480 my questions. I can take everything is in that book 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.240 and apply it to this movie and me, Yeah, to 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.680 a certain extent, there might be some useful connections to 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.840 be made there, But Dracula. Dracula movies are all built 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.840 around the central figure of Dracula, but the textual Dracula 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.160 in brim Stoker's original novel might not prove all that 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.239 useful and understanding. Some depictions of Dracula in other media, 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.160 including Bella Lugosi's Dracula, which we discussed in Weird Hoalse 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.920 Cinema recently, or say Marvel Comics Dracula, The Dracula and 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:41.160 Dracula three thousand, or whatever Dracula update you're looking at. Sometimes, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.320 you know, a Dracula movie may just take Dracula out 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.200 of it and they're just ignoring everything else thematically, plot wise, 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.400 time period and so forth. Like the Dracula in Monster 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:57.200 Squad is only loosely related to the original novel. 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:57.920 That's right. 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.880 So it may in fact be a very interest exercise 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.120 to see which elements from the older version are poured 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.320 it into the newer version and which are left behind. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.760 So it's not like it is useless to compare the versions, 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.520 but it is not necessary. But understanding the earlier version 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.800 does not necessarily tell you what to expect in the 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:20.320 newer version. Say, if we had pages missing from the 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.880 you know, all we had was like an incomplete script 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.680 of Dracula three thousand. We didn't have the movie, and 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.480 we were trying to figure out what was still in there. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.040 Going back to the novel Dracula would not tell us. 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.840 Right, and that would be again assuming that all all 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.320 adaptations of Dracula and all Dracula media still holds the 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:41.160 original novel in some regard or looks to it in 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.080 some fashion. You know, you can look at all various 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.400 examples though, of religions where there is some sort of 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:52.640 old text that remains important and the particular like model 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.520 of that religion may still be unrecognizable across time even 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.600 though it's based on the book. And in the case 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.400 of Roman mythraism, I'm not it's my understanding that we're 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.800 not really dealing with any kind of like central texts 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.640 that would have been the authority. The main authority would 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.560 have been perhaps some collection of myths, but also a 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.960 modern understanding of astrology. And so it really sounds like 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:23.960 it takes mithra It takes this Indo Iranian deity and 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.840 then creates a new form out of it, you know, 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:31.560 almost kind of like propping up some astrological ideas with 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:37.240 the appeal of this foreign deity and again creating something 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.479 new that is by Romans for Romans, likely with its 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.960 origin according to Bowden, in Italy, if not in Rome itself, 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.000 rather than the frontiers. It was then carried out to 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.680 the frontiers by Roman soldiers. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:51.280 Hmm. 0:17:51.520 --> 0:18:03.880 Okay, So, based on what the evidence we do have 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:10.520 regarding Roman Mythriism, which again involves some texts, some archaeological evidence, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.840 and also some artistic depictions, the cult would have met 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:19.800 in special cave like and sometimes partially cave based chambers. 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:25.879 These were called mithraeum. They were long, windowless rectangles with 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.320 chairs or seating down the long walls of the chamber 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.240 and so again no windows, so you just had to 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.359 depend on torches and or candles, and these would have 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:42.360 illuminated a strongly astrological decor so based on archaeological evidence, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.359 the exclusively male devotees of Mithraism would often join together, 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.800 apparently in feasts that included a lot of meat, some wine. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.600 And I have to note that I'm already getting like 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.920 a very strong Elks club vibe here. You know, it 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.000 sounds just like a men's club where they're all getting 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:05.280 together to drink and eat meat and maybe observe some rights. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.679 I mean, if you can experience the power of the 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.400 gods and just drink with your bros at the same time, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:12.200 that's a good two for one. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.680 Yeah. Yeah, So the astrological decor here would have included 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:22.040 depictions of the Sun is vitally important because Mithra is 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.120 even in Roman mythrism, a solar deity or a solar figure. 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.800 You have the Moon, the planets all coming together in 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.760 what we might think of as an astrological model of 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.960 the universe. And Balden argues that in the absence of 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.480 any key surviving text and only a few myths of 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:45.280 Mithra and his adventures slash live slash mythic existence, modern 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.880 understanding of astrology again like this would have been first 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.600 through third century understanding of the stars and then the 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:57.320 astrological model of how these stars and planets are impacting 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.760 our lives. This would have likely served as the unifying 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.840 factor of the religion across you know, its various far 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.920 flung forms. You'd see some changes in the way things 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.639 were depicted, but in the absence of any kind of 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.680 like top down doctrine, this is what you had, And 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:20.480 so a mithraem Again the temple where the Mithra worshipers 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.479 held their ceremonies and their feasts. It likely the building 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.720 itself likely served as a model, perhaps for further indoctrinization 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.840 into the astrological secrets of Mithraism, but also as a 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.080 model of the universe and the initiates place in it, 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:39.919 which I think that alone is kind of interesting to 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.440 think of in terms of soldiers in the Roman army, 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.080 you know, perhaps very close, if not on the frontiers 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.159 of this, you know, this vast region, and perhaps feeling 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.280 far from home and having some you know, maybe more 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.520 specific thoughts and questions about where I am in time 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:02.159 and space, but perhaps those are echoing you greater questions, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.520 and maybe that's where Mithraism comes into their lives with meaning. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.959 Now again, we have a lot of evidence, archaeological evidence 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.760 about what may have gone on at some of the 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.760 feasts that they had. There's at least one side and 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.800 what is now Belgium from the third century that suggests 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:22.320 ritual destruction of wine vessels as well as feasting. I 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.200 think they said that perhaps feasting exclusively on male animals, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.560 but also some eels. That Bouten points out they might 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.840 not have been able to sex the eels. Maybe they 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.040 meant it meat eat only male eels as well, but 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.400 at any rate, they ate a lot of meat, they 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:42.080 drank and or ritually destroyed wine vessels. And then he 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.040 also says that there's evidence at this one side and 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.639 no other side of a wine vessel with a snake 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.920 motif that, when heated, would have resulted in steam escaping 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:55.440 from the serpent's mouth. Oh cool, Yeah, pretty cool. But 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:57.280 we don't know what that may or may not mean. 0:21:57.880 --> 0:21:59.040 Maybe it was just cool. 0:21:59.440 --> 0:21:59.640 Well. 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.600 I don't want to comment on mythraism specifically, but with 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.480 respect to many of the mystery religions, I think cool 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:08.880 on its own may have. 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:09.720 Been reason enough. 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.280 Again, a lot of these cults I think you could 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:20.320 you could think of as being oriented towards producing profound, exciting, 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.359 dazzling sensory experiences. 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.359 And so I don't know, a. 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.359 Snake breathing out wine steam that seems like that. Could 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:30.800 that could be one of those things? 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.879 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I should also point out that I 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.719 believe the Belgium site indicates potentially potentially a large feast 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.320 like something like hundreds of individuals, But for the most part, 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.560 the mithraum were understood to be, you know, smaller places 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.600 where you would have a more intimate gathering. And if 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.480 there were, and you might have like more than one 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.520 mithraeum in a given area so that you could keep 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.320 the number small, so that that might also stack up 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:01.000 with some of how we're interpreting what the these spaces 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.479 and these meetings could have meant to these individuals. You know, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.959 it would have perhaps been a smaller, comfortable meeting and 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:13.680 not necessarily like a grand feast, all right, so about see. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:16.920 But obviously it can't all be cozy feasts, right because 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.840 as we've been discussing, mystery cults also involved at times 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:29.199 harrowing rights of initiation, sites and sounds that were unique 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.240 in life that gave you some insight into the inner 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:36.480 workings of the universe or the afterlife or what have you. 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.920 And as Bowden points out, there were apparently some rights 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.680 involved here. So there were like seven grades of mythraism, 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.119 and it's likely that each initiate that each grade of 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:53.040 mythraism involved a different ritual. But we do know a 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:57.639 little bit about the rituals that were involved, most notably 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:02.280 one that involves a sword and crown. For instance, Christian 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:08.600 writer Tertullian, who lived roughly one through two twenty ce 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:13.480 mentions a mithra in right by which the initiatet is 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:17.960 taken into a dark space. Obviously, the mithram and offered 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.080 a crown at sword point, and then he is expected 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:24.320 to strike the crown from their own head onto their 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:29.040 own shoulders and proclaim that no Mithra is my crown. 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:32.439 I do not need any other crown but Mithra. And 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:36.240 based on surviving frescoes and some evidence from some pottery, 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:39.760 we also have some vague ideas that the initiate would 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:43.040 have been brought into this ritual space bound and naked, 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.080 or at least blindfolded and naked, and then made kneel 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.440 for the placement of the crown, and then eventually made 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:53.320 to lay upon the ground or the floor of the mithram, 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:57.479 perhaps held down even And the general interpretation is indeed 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:00.840 that this, at least this grades initial would have been 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:04.040 rather terrifying. You know, you're at sword point, You're naked, 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.960 brought in blindfolded again, into a space that is either 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.680 a cave or partially a cave, or at least designed 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.320 to be as lightless as a cave and lit only 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:18.439 by torches, with also these added astrological signs around you. 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.360 It's funny, especially in this version, thinking about the comparisons 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:26.320 we have two more recent things in our own culture 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.560 like this strikes me as part religious ritual but also 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:31.560 just part fraternity initiation. 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:34.600 Yeah, it reminds me. I can't help but think of 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:36.399 the episode of The Simpsons with it. What are there 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:41.000 the stonecutters stonecutters skin? Yeah, yeah, with the very all 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:44.080 the different initiation rights that were all essentially just ritually 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:44.960 spanking each other. 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.960 I mean in our culture, when that is depicted in 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:51.600 media and storytelling, it's usually played for comedy. Now, it's 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:55.520 kind of mocking the silliness of this, but I think 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:59.520 there are some pretty profound psychological reasons why, you know, 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:05.760 why a lot of brotherhoods or groups that are encouraging 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:08.840 people to form a deep bond and commit to secrecy 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:13.159 and things like that, why they involve painful and confusing 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:16.159 initiation processes. And we'll talk about that more as we 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:19.119 go on and discuss some of these other mystery religions. 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.080 But it seems like not an accident to me, Like 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:26.240 there's a kind of psychological triggering mechanism involved where when 0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:31.040 you've been through some kind of pain and suffering, it 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:33.719 for some reason triggers you to commit more deeply. 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:36.920 Yeah, it's like we just pretended to threaten to kill 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:40.879 you with the sword, but now we're all bros. And 0:26:40.920 --> 0:26:43.000 we can have some wines and meat that sort of thing. 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.679 That's again oversimplification of what's going on here, but we 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:50.359 can't help withdraw those comparisons. So at the center of 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.679 all this we still have this solar deity of sorts, 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:57.560 this Mithra at once the Sun itself and also seemingly 0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:01.359 a servant of a greater Sun god, perhaps born out 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.040 of an egg. I think a little unsure in some 0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:06.000 of these depictions, like if Mithra is supposed to be 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:09.080 emerging from an egg or maybe it's the sun. And 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:12.119 then Mithra rises to chase the lunar bull with a 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:15.480 sword and eventually slay it, and that's where we get 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:16.240 to that symbol. 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.560 Yeah, this is one of the main motifs I was 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:22.560 familiar with, not really knowing that much about Mithraism, but 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:26.359 I knew that there were artistic motifs that involved a 0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:29.560 sort of fight or struggle with a giant bull or 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:32.240 maybe being killed by a bull or killing the bull. 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:39.159 Yes, this is the Taroktini, and it is this recurring 0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:43.960 visual motif of Mithraism. In it, we see the unconquered 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:47.720 sun god Mithra dressed in a cloak and what is described. 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:51.240 I don't think he's wearing this in every depiction, but 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:55.000 at least it's more prominent in some a Persian style hat, 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:58.320 and he is grappling a bull and stabbing it through 0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.720 the neck with his sword. At the same time, a 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:06.000 scorpion is stinging the bulls testicles, and a dog and 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:09.720 a snake are drinking blood from the sword wound. Okay, 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:14.520 all while a sun watches on a moon watches on. 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:17.960 There are also two figures that are present that each 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:20.000 have a torch, and they're sometimes part of this is 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:22.000 two One is holding the torch high, one holding the 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:28.480 torch low. Everything is very astrologically charged here, with these 0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:35.800 different symbols having zodiac references entailed. The central idea here, though, 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:38.200 which may not have been revealed or apparent to all 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:41.440 adherents to Mithraism, is that it has to do with 0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:44.960 the position of the sun and the constellation Taurus during 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:48.280 the hottest months of the year late July till late August. 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.200 So Baldn contends that some elements of this faith may 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:58.040 have originally originated in Eastern Anatolia, but the cult of 0:28:58.120 --> 0:29:02.320 Mithraism is again likely originated itself largely in Italy and 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:05.520 likely within Rome, and was then taken out to the 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:10.440 far flung frontiers by Roman soldiers. So and it's also 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:14.400 telling that apparently, despite its foreign elements and inspirations quite 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:18.880 clear inspirations, it was likely considered a very Roman thing 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:24.680 to do, and ultimately it backs up and acknowledges Roman ideals, 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.840 and so it likely attracted initiates who wanted to be 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:33.200 more Roman, including foreigners in Rome, which is interesting to 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.000 think of. It may have offered some degree of social 0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:39.400 upward mobility, but it also doesn't seem to have offered 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:43.640 any notion of privileged status in the afterlife, but instead 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:49.240 likely leaned heavily on an astrology fueled understanding of where 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:52.560 one stood in the world and maybe in the universe 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.920 in the larger sense. I mean, but this is just 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:58.280 me spitballing here, but it does like all these elements 0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:02.160 they do they do sound like the things that might 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:07.160 be created by people who are having a certain crisis 0:30:07.280 --> 0:30:09.920 about like who they are and where they belong in 0:30:10.000 --> 0:30:14.080 the world. That might you know, fit in in an 0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:18.440 empire that is expanding at the same time absorbing different elements, 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:23.560 you know. And then this this structure of this cult 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:27.600 is built out to sort of give you some level 0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:29.960 of assurance and say, no, no, no, don't worry. We know 0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:32.240 a lot about the movements of the stars and the planets, 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.720 and no matter how you know crazy, everything else is 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:38.440 getting out there, like this can tell you exactly where 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:40.560 you are and who you are in the grand scheme 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:41.000 of things. 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:44.600 Yeah, the meaning is written in the sky. 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:48.680 Yeah. But at the same time, also like, hey, this 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:51.960 thing's pretty popular. I want to fit in. I should 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:54.000 probably go to this too. I hear they sometimes have 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:56.800 meat and wine, So you know, I think you have 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.000 to factor all these different ideas into it. But it 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:03.120 does sound like the initiation rituals could be very terrifying, 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.280 at least based on the way that I am interpreting it, 0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.480 And it seems like Bowden and others have interpreted maybe 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:11.640 it was played just for giggles, but I doubt it 0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:14.520 based on so based on the comparisons we have in 0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:25.200 other mystery cults. 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:28.960 Well, speaking of other cults that would interface perfectly with 0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:32.640 things that people in the ancient world wrote about. The 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:35.520 next example that I want to talk about. I don't 0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:38.440 know if we'll have a chance to explore everything about 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:41.000 these in today's episode with the time we've got left, 0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:45.520 but we can at least start talking about the Elusinian Mysteries, 0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:51.000 probably the most famous mystery cult of the Greek world. Now, 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:54.320 we know about the Eleusinian Mysteries from a number of 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:59.440 sources of information, primarily from what ancient authors wrote about them, 0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:04.760 including from literature that that attempts to describe things about 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.080 them directly, but then also from literature that makes oblique 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:11.360 or incidental reference to them. And it turns out there's 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:13.040 a lot of the latter. I mean, there will just 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:16.680 there will just be little dialogues of Plato where you know, 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:22.240 Socrates says something that implies a certain understanding of what 0:32:22.280 --> 0:32:25.520 the Elusinian mysteries meant, but is not meaning to talk 0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:27.920 about them directly, not like here, let's have a discourse 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:29.400 about them. 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:33.000 That's another thing. I guess it's interesting, too important to 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.840 realize and discussions. It's like, there's there's stuff that is 0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:40.240 forgotten because it was secret, and there's also plenty of 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:42.200 things that were forgotten because it was just common knowledge. 0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:43.200 Why would you write that down? 0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:44.120 Yeah, exactly. 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:48.280 Also, apart from the ancient written sources, we have some physical, 0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:53.880 archaeological remains, especially at eleusis the cult center, including artworks 0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:58.120 that depict elements of the associated myth. One example of 0:32:58.160 --> 0:33:02.160 the ladder is a marble fred from the sanctuary of 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:06.000 Demeter at el Usus, of which there are copies from 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:09.360 scattered about from the Roman period as well. But rob 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:11.320 I included an image in our outline for you to 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:15.760 look at this marble relief. It shows the goddess's Demeter 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:19.840 and Persephone standing on either side of a nude young man, 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:23.520 and they are just towering over the guy. They're much 0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:26.840 bigger than he is. The youth is thought to probably 0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:31.160 be a figure named Triptolemus, who is a figure in 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.640 mythology sent by Demeter to teach agriculture to the people, 0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:38.320 sort of a kind of an intermediary Prometheus of grain 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:41.840 in a way. And one interesting thing about this marble 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:44.480 relief you're looking at, rob is that the Demeter and 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:49.000 Persephone here are they're like holding their hands out as 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:51.960 if they're each holding something out to this naked man, 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:57.360 and their marble fingers probably originally held some kind of object, 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:00.240 but that object or those objects are gone. 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:01.280 And we don't know what they were. 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:05.520 Oh hell, so some basic facts to ground us about 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:09.920 the Eleusinian mysteries. They were based out of a city 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.560 called Eleusis, which was located in the region of Attica, 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:17.240 only about twenty three kilometers west of the city of Athens, 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:19.319 so pretty close to the city of Athens and also 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:24.160 close to another important ancient city called Megara. The myth 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:28.440 associated with the mystic rights of Eleusis is a version 0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:32.960 of the story of Demeter and Persephone. Now, as with 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.800 most of the big Greek myths, there are multiple versions 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:39.560 of this story in circulation, with lots of differences in 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.640 the narrative. So I am specifically going to be talking 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:45.640 about the version of the story found in the Greek 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:49.440 hymn or poem known as the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:54.279 which was written in dactylic Hexameter, probably sometime between six 0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:57.879 fifty and five fifty BCE, and this is the take 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:00.600 on the story that seems to directly implicate the city 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:05.840 of Eleusis. So in this myth, Demeter, the Greek goddess 0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:09.040 of agriculture in the harvest, has a daughter with the 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:11.960 god Zeus, and in a lot of versions of the 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:15.600 story the daughter is named Persephone, but in the version 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.040 of the story told at Eleusis, the daughter is referred 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:24.840 to only as Corey, Corey or Corey Kri, meaning maiden. 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:28.719 So core and Persephone are basically the same character, but 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:31.200 I'm going to use core in my telling here because 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:34.520 of the Eleusinian connection. So the trouble begins in the 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:39.279 story when Zeus, without the consent of Demeter, allows his 0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:42.279 brother Hades, the god of the underworld and the king 0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:46.279 of the Dead, to kidnap Demeter's daughter, Corey while she 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:50.279 is out gathering flowers upon a plane, and Hades takes 0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:54.200 her away to his subterranean kingdom of the Dead. When 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:57.880 Demeter finds out that her daughter is missing, she spends 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:01.920 nine days scouring the earth, scouring the face of the 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.520 earth in grief, searching for her daughter by torchlight. It's 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:08.880 mentioned that she carries a torch and eventually a couple 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:13.400 of other gods, Hecate and Helios, tell Demeter what happened, 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:16.200 and so here we get to the part involving the 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:21.120 city of Eleusis. Demeter, disgusted with Zeus and with the 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.799 gods for allowing this to happen to her daughter, she 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:27.600 leaves Mount Olympus disguises herself as a human and then 0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:30.839 walks all over the world, and eventually she ends up 0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:33.720 in the city of Eleusis, where she meets the family 0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:37.120 of a king named King Celius, and she is hired 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:41.399 to work for the king's family as a nurse. Now, 0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:44.200 in Bowden's retelling of this myth, there are a number 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:46.960 of great details here that are very cryptic to the 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:50.040 modern reader and sort of fascinating. 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:50.760 For this reason. 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:53.200 I love little details where it's like, why include that, 0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:56.839 what does that mean? So it says that she is 0:36:56.880 --> 0:36:59.840 invited into the house of the family of King Celius. 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:02.960 She has offered a chair to sit, but says no, no, no, 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:06.680 I'll just sit on this stool covered in a fleece instead. 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:10.360 M And then she has offered a cup of wine, 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:13.959 but she refuses the wine and instead accepts a type 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:18.960 of beverage. It's a beverage or perhaps a gruel, the 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:21.799 name of which in Greek is spelled k y k 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:26.319 e o n like kai kion, but I have heard 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:31.319 it pronounced as kukion, so I'm gonna say kukon. It 0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:35.520 is made of water grain and herbs. Bowden specifies that 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:38.600 the grain is barley, and the herb is mint. So 0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:42.120 think of a kind of beverage or gruel made with 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:44.120 with barley, water and mint. 0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:47.600 Could be good, could be good, could be could be 0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:48.440 rather refreshing. 0:37:48.800 --> 0:37:51.080 Remember that drink. We may not It may not be 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:53.000 till the next episode that it comes back, but it 0:37:53.040 --> 0:37:57.080 will factor in. At el usis also in here. It 0:37:57.080 --> 0:37:59.520 says that Demeter smiles at a joke made by a 0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:03.560 woman name I am Bi. Anyway, Demeter in disguise is 0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:08.040 hired to nurse the newborn prince in this household. The 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:13.640 newborn prince is named Demophoon, but instead of feeding him 0:38:13.760 --> 0:38:17.640 each night in secret, she anoints him with ambrosia and 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:21.080 then exposes him to the fire in the hearth. And 0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:24.480 there's a reason for this. This is a process she's 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:28.480 doing to make the boy eventually immortal, so she's sort 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:33.560 of transforming this baby into a god. However, it doesn't 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:37.719 work because one night, Demeter in disguise gets caught. She 0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:40.400 gets caught in the middle of doing this by medanaira 0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:46.400 Demophoan's mother, who screams in terror, which you can understand 0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:50.120 why that would happen, but Demeter, Demeter is not happy 0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:53.280 about this, She explains what she was doing, and she says, 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.160 you know now that the spell is broken. Now that 0:38:55.160 --> 0:38:59.400 you've caught me, Demophoon cannot become immortal. And Demeter is 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:02.719 very angry by this reversal, and she says, Okay, what 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:05.760 you've got to do now to appease me is build 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:08.560 me a temple. Build a temple to me in elyusis, 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:11.520 and I will teach you sacred rights that you need 0:39:11.560 --> 0:39:13.560 to do in my honor in order to keep me 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:17.200 from getting really mad. Next, and I mentioned this in 0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:21.040 the last episode, Demeter says, all grain on Earth is 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:24.560 going to stop growing right now. This is bad for 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:27.480 humans obviously because we need that to eat, but it's 0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:30.280 also bad for the gods because they need to receive 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:34.919 grain as sacrifices from humans. So it seems like this 0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:37.759 finally gets Zeus to do something about the problem that 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:41.160 he created. He's like, Demeter, what can I do to 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.319 make you happy? And Demeter says, give me my daughter back, 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:48.520 and so Zeus agrees. He sends the messenger god Hermes 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:52.040 to Hades to the underworld to tell him that Corey 0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:55.040 the Maiden must be allowed to return to the world above. 0:39:55.560 --> 0:39:58.840 But Hades has a trick up his sleeve. Before Corey leaves, 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:03.600 he gives her pomegranate seed, a pomegranate seed from the underworld, 0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:07.640 and she eats it, and now having eaten the food 0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:12.280 of the underworld, she is ensnared. She cannot permanently leave, 0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:15.160 and while she's free to spend two thirds of the 0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:18.040 year up above, she has to return to the land 0:40:18.080 --> 0:40:21.520 of the dead for one third of each year. And 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:26.120 this myth is often linked to seasonal cycles of growth 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:30.080 in agriculture, though not necessarily with the seasons you're thinking of. 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:33.040 I think the natural way that most people would interpret 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.600 it is okay, so the you know, the daughter of 0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:39.440 the grain goddess, she can come up to the upper 0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:41.960 world during the you know, the spring, in the summer 0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:44.680 the warm months, and then in the winter when the 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:48.400 when the plants die after the harvest, she disappears. 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:48.840 Into the underworld. 0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:52.000 That may be it, but actually Bowden says it could 0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:55.560 be the other way around, because in Greece, the hottest 0:40:55.600 --> 0:40:58.640 part of the summer was sort of often the least 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.640 productive agricultural seeds because things would be very dry, and 0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:03.880 the winter was actually used as a It was a 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:08.000 very productive agricultural season, and so maybe sort of that 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:11.200 way around instead of the way we naturally think. But 0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:13.759 however it actually lines up with the seasonal timeline. It's 0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:19.000 clear to understand why this myth has agricultural significance. 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:20.120 Anyway. 0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:23.040 At the end of the myth, after being comforted by 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:26.400 her own mother Raya, who is one of the Titans, 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:30.400 Demeter allows the grain to grow again. And then Demeter, 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.279 as she promised, comes back to the people of Eleusis 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:37.840 to teach them the mysteries. She teaches them special rights 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:40.920 that they would have to do in her honor. And 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:43.759 then I want to read from What follows is a 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:47.320 translation of a passage in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, 0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:49.720 the version that appears in Bowden's book. 0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:52.960 So it goes, so. 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:56.240 The whole broad earth grew heavy with leafage and bloom, 0:41:56.680 --> 0:42:01.080 and she went to the lawgiver kings Triptolemus and horse Goading, Diocles, 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:06.520 strong Eumolpus, and Celius, leader of hosts, and showed them 0:42:06.560 --> 0:42:10.480 the conduct of her sacred matters, and taught her solemn rights, 0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:15.680 which one cannot depart from or inquire about, or broadcast 0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:19.680 for great awe of the gods restrains us from speaking. 0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:23.080 Blessed is he of men on earth who has beheld them, 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:26.879 whereas he that is uninitiated in the rights, or he 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:30.280 that has no part in them, never enjoys a similar 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:32.960 lot down in the musty dark when he is dead. 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:35.520 Oh wow. So first of all, I love that this 0:42:35.640 --> 0:42:36.640 is not for broadcast. 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:37.439 Yeah. 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:41.200 And then but then also, unlike seemingly with our example 0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:45.480 of mythraism, this mystery cult does seem to impart some 0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:51.680 sort of privileged knowledge of and or destination in the afterlife. 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:54.560 It does, but I want to complicate that with something 0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:56.960 in just a minute here. So yeah, so many interesting 0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:00.640 things going on here. The goddess teaches the people of 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:05.360 eleusis the secret rituals, says, you cannot depart from these rituals, 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:07.920 so don't change them, don't give them up. You cannot 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:12.640 ask questions about them, no talking, no questioning, and you 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:15.840 cannot talk about them with the uninitiated. You've got to 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.000 keep them a secret only to the people who have 0:43:18.200 --> 0:43:19.840 been initiated. 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:19.800 To the cult. 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:24.439 And of course, if you are initiated and you get 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:28.160 to witness these rights, you are blessed. If you are 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.319 not initiated and know nothing of the mysteries, then you 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.080 are not blessed, and you will apparently have a worse 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.359 fate in Hades, down in the musty dark. And if 0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.919 I'm interpreting this right, it does not say that those 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:42.680 who have been blessed by witnessing the rights will not 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:47.719 go to Hades. Instead, it just seems like something is 0:43:47.760 --> 0:43:49.839 going to be different from them. You know, it's going 0:43:49.880 --> 0:44:01.360 to be better for you. Now to explore that a 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:04.960 little more, this last part about the effect of initiation 0:44:05.120 --> 0:44:09.680 to the mystic rights on a person's lot in the afterlife. 0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:12.640 That is a major part of how mystery cults have 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:18.040 been understood by later scholars. Was, I think once widely 0:44:18.160 --> 0:44:21.160 held that the mystery cults of the reco Roman world 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:25.920 were mainly about improving a person's lot in the afterlife. 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:29.319 But Bowden argues that, at least in some cases, the 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:33.280 evidence is this was not a major focus of the rights, 0:44:33.440 --> 0:44:36.200 and that any belief that you would have a better 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.160 afterlife by having been initiated was more of a side 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:44.800 effect of having achieved a special closeness or direct encounter 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:47.640 with the gods through the mysteries. It was not the 0:44:47.640 --> 0:44:51.759 primary goal or function of the mysteries, so we don't 0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:54.640 have evidence that the goal was like to go to 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:57.920 heaven by doing these rituals. It was just kind of 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:01.640 like there were blessings and good things about having this 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:04.839 mystic encounter, about going through the rights, and one of 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:07.920 the things that came with it in some cases was 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:10.840 that it's said that something is better for you after 0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:11.279 you die. 0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:14.359 Okay, so again, it's not that you're going to get 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:17.480 a better treatment in the afterlife. It's something maybe a 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:22.200 little more sublime. Hear me out. I don't know if 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:24.319 this is a good a good idea, a good one. 0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:26.400 It may not be a good idea. Maybe it's not 0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:29.280 a good analogy. But imagine you're going to go see 0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:34.960 the Android Lloyd Weber musical Cats, and beforehand, someone who 0:45:35.000 --> 0:45:37.480 is wise and knowledgeable comes to you and says, before 0:45:37.520 --> 0:45:41.239 you go, read this nineteen thirty nine poetry collection Old 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:43.960 Possum's Book of Practical Cats by T. S. Elliott. Just 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:46.360 of course, these are the poems that the musical is 0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:49.759 based upon. And you might then ask, oh, if I 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.319 read this, will I have better seats? No, you will 0:45:52.320 --> 0:45:54.960 not have better seats. Based on reading this, but perhaps 0:45:54.960 --> 0:45:58.160 you'll understand the musical more or you'll have some deeper 0:45:58.160 --> 0:46:02.000 connection with the musical, and that will enhance the experience 0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:05.000 of it. Something to that effect, as opposed to like, 0:46:05.160 --> 0:46:07.960 will this secret knowledge actually get me closer to the 0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:08.879 front or give me more. 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.279 Legrom Yeah, that may well be a good analogy, except again, 0:46:12.320 --> 0:46:15.480 it would not be about reading anything in particular here. 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:18.200 It would be like about having the experience. Maybe instead 0:46:18.239 --> 0:46:21.239 it's like should you go to see the play? Like 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:23.560 that's really the thing that it's more like, isn't it. 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:26.640 It's like going to take part in and witness something 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:30.759 kind of be part of a collaborative theatrical experience. But yeah, 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:32.920 I think that's a good way of thinking about it, 0:46:32.960 --> 0:46:36.120 because I want to read another thing that an ancient 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:39.680 source that abouten mentions in the book. So you know, 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.000 many ancient authors, as we talked about last time, are 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:45.920 unable or unwilling to profane the cult of the Lusinian 0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:48.359 Mysteries by sharing the secrets of its hidden rights. So 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:51.680 we don't get you know, many ancient sources where people 0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:54.400 are like trying to tell us what happened inside the 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:59.680 inside the secret chamber, but multiple writers attest to the 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:03.600 power of the mysteries and the positive effect they had 0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:07.880 on those initiated. One of those passages cited in Bowden 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:13.000 is from the Greek anthology by Crnagoras published that was 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:16.640 written in the first century BCE, and what Krnagoras says 0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:20.520 is quote, even if yours has always been a sedentary life, 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:23.319 and you have never sailed the sea nor walked the 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:26.760 roads of the land, you should nevertheless go to Attica 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:29.719 so that you may witness those nights of the festival 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:32.720 of Great Demeter. For then your heart may be free 0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:35.600 of care while you live, and lighter when you go 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:38.680 to the land of the dead. Oh wow, yeah, So 0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:42.560 whatever happens, it is said by many to be a 0:47:42.719 --> 0:47:46.520 powerful experience that is perceived as life altering in a 0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:50.239 good way. For a modern comparison, when you read some 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:53.239 of these ancient passages where people talk like this, it's 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:56.480 kind of like how some psychedelic evangelists talk about taking 0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:59.560 LSD for the first time you realize your cares and 0:47:59.600 --> 0:48:02.960 anxiety are meaningless, you lose your fear of death. Maybe 0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:06.960 things like that. It's also kind of the way sometimes 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:11.280 people talk about contemplative practices or experiences that they believe 0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:15.440 are spiritually important, like meditation, though the way the mysteries 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:19.959 are described it is a much less regular and more 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:23.560 high intensity experience than meditation usually is, I guess, but 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:26.800 similar kind of descriptions of like a way of opening 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:30.480 the mind, of changing your relationship to life. Your heart 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:33.279 is lighter, and you can be lighter when you go 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:34.360 to the land of the dead. 0:48:35.280 --> 0:48:38.120 Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I'm reminded of going 0:48:38.160 --> 0:48:40.960 to a haunted attraction here in our modern world. You know, 0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:44.440 go to a haunted house around Halloween, where the various 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:48.160 actors and various tricks will be utilized to scare you 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:50.400 and give you a good laugh. I mean, it is 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:55.600 like a sensory overload experience. And granted it it has 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:58.080 no religious agenda. Well I take that back. Sometimes it 0:48:58.080 --> 0:48:59.600 does have a religious agenda. 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:01.719 But yeah, there are those, Yeah, but. 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:03.920 In general it does. The idea of just scaring you 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:07.200 doesn't have a religious agenda. But now that I've accidentally 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.879 mentioned it, I am reminded, Yeah, maybe there's a case 0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:14.720 to be made that like church themed or orchestrated haunted 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:20.280 attractions like small town affairs are kind of in keeping 0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:23.640 with mystery cults to some degree, I guess based on 0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:29.960 my experience of those Christian haunted house haunted attractions, there 0:49:30.040 --> 0:49:34.080 tended to be very little in terms of like supernatural 0:49:34.120 --> 0:49:36.719 content in them. Generally they were depicting like real life 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:41.359 ours and not so much like here now you are 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:45.080 witnessing angels, maybe you're witnessing demons, but you know you're 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.200 not going to see you glory from the other side. 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:51.040 I think the common recipe is you get to see 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:53.920 people go into hell, yeah, and that the point of 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:56.799 the hell house also is a persuasive one, like it's 0:49:56.840 --> 0:50:00.320 supposed to make you afraid that, oh, I'm to go 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:02.080 to hell like the people in the play here, and 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:04.319 it's going to be scary if I don't say the 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:07.279 Sinner's prayer and get saved or go to this church here, 0:50:07.800 --> 0:50:09.680 And so it's like a way, it's like a foot 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:12.640 in the door. It's trying to get you into the 0:50:12.920 --> 0:50:17.840 actually the doctrinal religion, the regular, more low intensity experience 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:21.080 of going to this church, whereas with the mysteries, it 0:50:21.160 --> 0:50:24.440 seems like the point of the mysteries was the experience 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:27.680 of the mysteries is like that was what it was about. 0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:30.799 At least in the case of the Elusinian Mysteries. It 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.680 wasn't like a persuasive event to try to get you 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:37.799 into to show up every week. Instead, it was like, 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:40.160 this is why you're here, this is what it's all about. 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:42.960 There there's often the sense that it's not something you 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.560 could even put into words exactly like it was that 0:50:45.680 --> 0:50:50.160 level of an experience, not I'm keeping again, not dissimilar 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:56.120 from some of the accounts of psychedelic experiences and paranormal experiences. 0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:01.920 Rather different from in that regard compared to a haunted attraction, 0:51:01.960 --> 0:51:05.640 where generally you can describe everything quite well once you 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:06.799 leave the facilities. 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:09.839 All right, So we've talked about a written version of 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:13.160 the myth associating the goddess Demeter with the city of 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:15.320 l Jusis, and we've talked about how people in the 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:19.759 ancient world wrote about the personal effect of being initiated 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:24.160 or attending the mysteries. But what's beyond this, of course, 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:27.640 is to describe the rituals themselves. I think we do 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:29.759 not have time left to do that today, so I 0:51:29.760 --> 0:51:31.200 think that should be where we pick up in the 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:32.160 next episode. 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:34.800 All right, So we'll meet you back here on Thursday 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:38.279 for our continued look at the ancient mystery cults of 0:51:38.360 --> 0:51:41.719 the Greco Roman world. In the meantime, we'll remind you 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:43.760 that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:46.919 and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.839 short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set 0:51:49.840 --> 0:51:51.960 aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:53.440 film on Weird House Cinema. 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:57.320 Huge Things, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 0:51:57.640 --> 0:51:59.080 If you would like to get in touch with us 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.560 with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:03.640 a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:06.680 you can email us at contact, stuff to Blow your 0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:15.560 Mind dot com. 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:18.600 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:21.479 more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:37.960 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.