1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: Technology with tex Stuff from hat dot com. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: and welcome to tex Stuff. I am your host, Jonathan Strickland. 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer at how Stuff Works. I'm really 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: excited to bring you this episode today. In nine d two, 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Disney released a film unlike any other in the company's history, 6 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: And if you boil the story down to its basic themes, 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: it's really not that unusual. Right. You have a hero 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: who rises up against a tyrant of a villain and 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: helps a group of resistance fighters overcome oppression. Now, that 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: story has been told in numerous ways before and since, 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: but this particular version had some really interesting quirks to it. 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: The film was called Tron. Tron follows the story of 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: a character named Flynn, who is a video game designer 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: and hacker who once was the employee of a corporation 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: called InCom. One of Flynn's co workers named Dillinger, stole 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: Flynn's work and arranged Flynn's removal from the company and 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: covered it all up. Flynn plans a daring computer raid 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: on the company with the help of two of his 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: former co workers. His big goal is to uncover the 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: actual evidence that in fact, Dillinger stole Flynn's work, and 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: his big opponent in this raid is an artificial intelligent construct. 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: It's a piece of code. It's some software. It's called 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: the Master Control Program or m c P. Now, originally 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: that started out as a chess game, but it had 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: started to assimilate other programs into its own code and 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: systematically growing more powerful as a result. So imagine sort 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: of like the borg absorbing other entities to gain more strength. 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: That's kind of what the m c P is doing. 29 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: It gets more and more capability as it absorbs their programs. 30 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: So while Flynn is trying to break into Income's systems, 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: the m c P detects him and uses a laser 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: to convert Flynn into digital information and essentially upload him 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: to the computer. That pulls Flynn into the computer world 34 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: and their Flynn encounters programs and in the world of 35 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: the computer simulation or the computer environment. These programs have 36 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: the appearances of humans in this universe. They also resemble 37 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: their creators, whoever programmed them. One of those programs is Tron. 38 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: The name is short for Electronic. Tron is a security 39 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: program and is designed to keep an eye on the 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: m c P, but he also acts kind of like 41 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: a gladiator in various games that the m c P 42 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: forces programs to participate in, and as some people mentioned 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: within the context of the film, he fights for the users. 44 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite quotes from Tron. Users in 45 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: the Tron universe are sort of seen as like gods. 46 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: They are the creators, and the programs look to users 47 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: for guidance and for approval, and they have had all 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: communication cut off by the m c P, so they 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: wonder if the users are still out there. There's this 50 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: whole existential crisis going on in the world of Tron, 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: and that's an interesting piece of the mythology of the movie. 52 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: Flynn eventually, of course, helps bring down the m c 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: P and he escapes the computer world. He's also able 54 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: to prove that Dillinger stole his work, and he ends 55 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: up becoming the new head of Income as a result. Now, 56 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: the film was not a big success at the box office, 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: but it did find itself a cult following and also 58 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: had a profound impact on the way people would visualize cyberspace. 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: I would even say that you could see elements of 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: the design from Tron find its way into early implementations 61 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: of virtual reality. And the production of the film itself 62 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: relied heavily on some really innovative work from numerous people 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: in order for the film to actually come into being. 64 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: So Ramsey, the under producer, arranged for me to have 65 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: an interview with the writer and director of Tron, Stephen Liszburger. 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: What follows is our conversation about the technology he used 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: to create the movie, as well as his philosophy about 68 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: technology and stuff in general, really the things that informed 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: the creation of Tron. I hope you enjoy Stephen Listburger. 70 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: It is a pleasure to have you on the show. 71 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining Tech Stuff my pleasure. Now before 72 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: we jump into Tron, and I've got a lot of 73 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: things to ask about for Tron. Uh, maybe my listeners 74 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: would probably appreciate understanding a little bit about your background 75 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: leading up to Tron. You had a background in animation 76 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: leading up to that. I come from the East Coast. 77 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: I was born in New York and went to college 78 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: in Boston at TOPS and went to the School of 79 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: the Museum of Fine Arts, where I studied film for 80 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: five years, including animation, and I had my own company 81 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: in Boston that did some live action, but primarily animation, 82 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: and uh, we eventually ended up with a studio on 83 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: the East Coast and went on the West coast. We're 84 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: and our biggest job was doing Animal Olympics for the 85 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: NBC television network, and during that we developed Tron and 86 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: then tried to do it independently, but we couldn't pull 87 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: it off, So we were fortunate enough to get in 88 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: business with Disney. Yeah. I imagine a project with the 89 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: scope of Tron would have been extremely challenging to pull 90 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: off without some some pretty major help. And I also 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: imagine that Disney's background in animation uh led to some 92 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: some aid when you guys were working on Tron, because 93 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that people who have seen the film 94 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: are really aware how much actual hand drawn animation techniques 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: were incorporated. This was an era before computer graphics had 96 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: reached that digital age where you do everything you know 97 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: digitally on a computer and then you can just export 98 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: to a video file. This is way before all of that, 99 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: So I imagine Disney's involvement was somewhat helpful because that 100 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: was a studio that actually understood animation. Yeah, all of 101 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: that is true, And just to unpack that, um, if 102 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: we had tried to do it independently, I think it 103 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: would have we wouldn't have made it eventually. We would 104 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: have had to either go under or bring in someone 105 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: else because we were somewhat naive. We had an idea 106 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: how we would do it, but we in retrospect the 107 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: scale of it was something that none of us had 108 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: experienced with. On paper, we thought we could work it 109 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: all out. It added up and made sense. But when 110 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: we got into it at Disney, many times I thought, 111 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm really glad we're here and not in any other 112 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: studio because, as you said, we we had. We had 113 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pieces of artwork, um 114 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: put any into just the frame blow ups. Every individual 115 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: frame of the electronic World blown up shot in seventy 116 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: moment are blown up. They were when they were stacked up, 117 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: they filled two entire moving vans. I mean it was 118 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: tons and tons and tons of images and it it 119 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: didn't freak Disney out because they said, yeah, we're used 120 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: to handling millions of pieces of artwork. And in the end, 121 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: that was totally the strength production wise of the project 122 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: because we all of us working on it were familiar 123 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: with animation. Even the live action people had quite a 124 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: bit of experience and animation, so we sort of took 125 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: the best from live action, and then we turned the 126 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: whole live action movie into an animated movie. And once 127 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: it was at that level, you could treat it like 128 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: mass production. You could just keep multiplying the number of 129 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: teams working on the individual scenes, and and there was 130 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: a system there. We weren't reinventing the wheel. That system existed. 131 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: People knew how to do, you know, animated effects, and 132 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: how to work with these numbers of probably it had 133 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: to be over a million pieces in the end. And 134 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: the funny thing about it is how efficient it was, 135 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: because we ended up doing all of the special effects 136 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: in Tron one in half the time that it took 137 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: to do them in Tron too well, and and correct 138 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: me if I got this, get any of this wrong. 139 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: I want to see if I can kind of lay 140 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: out for my listeners sort of a general approach to 141 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: the electronic world sequences, which took up more almost an 142 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: entire hour of Toronto. I think about somewhere around the 143 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: realm of fifty three to fifty five minutes something like 144 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: that of a footage in this electronic world. So the 145 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: thing is there was an underlying template that I had 146 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: in mind, which is, you know, a sort of live 147 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: action short at the beginning then followed by an animated 148 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: movie is what Disney used to make. And you know 149 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: they always did that with their live action films and 150 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: animated and live or live and animated, and so that 151 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: combination is what I was going for. You know, it's 152 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: sort of a it's it's kind of an animated feature 153 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: in terms of that length of about seventy minutes, with 154 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: the live action being kind of a short at the beginning. 155 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: So and the way that would work out, like you said, 156 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: you shot on seventy millimeter in large each frame. Because 157 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: to remind my listeners, some of whom are are too 158 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: young to really remember the days of film, it's really funny, 159 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, once time moves on and people forget about 160 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: how difficult it was in the past. It's a little 161 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: bit like the next generation doesn't really care how difficult 162 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: it was before. And you know, there was no way 163 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: to composite film if you that was efficient, if you 164 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: did effects and you had characters and you had a 165 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: fantasy background, there really was no good way to put 166 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: all of this together. Blue screen existed, but I've shot 167 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: blue screen, and you know, if if you had at 168 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: the time, if you had twenty or fifty blue screen 169 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: shots in the film, that was a lot. Well, we 170 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: had nine composite shots that we had to do, nine 171 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: shots that had you and beings in worlds that didn't exist, 172 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: plus their costumes who were supposed to be glowing. And 173 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: there was no digital compositing. You couldn't even run computer 174 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: animation consecutively. We only had enough computing power. We had 175 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: total two megabytes, and we only had enough memory to 176 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: render one frame at a time period, so you could 177 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: never look at the light cycles moving. You could only 178 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: look at this individual frame. Then you had to wait 179 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: forty five minutes and rendered the next frame and look 180 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: at that one. And the only time we ever saw 181 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: the stuff put together is after we set up a 182 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: film camera and clicked like in an animated movie, one 183 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: frame at a time off of this computer animation, and 184 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: then people would all go into the screening room and 185 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: sit there. Even the guys that did all the computer 186 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: work had never seen it moving. And we saw it 187 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: for the very first time when we filmed it one 188 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: frame at a time and then ran it back. And 189 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: so to put all of this together to composite it. 190 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: The only way we could do it was to do 191 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: blow up every frame and make it into an animated movie. 192 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: And what we did to combine it with the computer 193 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: animation was to try to find a sort of middle 194 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: ground where the live action would look like it had 195 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: been rendered by a computer and the computer animation wasn't 196 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: too attempting to look too real because we couldn't do real. 197 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: Many of the looks in the computer aspects of Tron 198 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: look the way they look because not because we sat 199 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: there and said, oh, wouldn't this was great? And wire 200 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: frame instead of fully rendered. No, no, no, it was 201 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: wire frame because that's all we could do, and it's 202 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: phenomenal to to give a sense of scale. You're talking 203 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: about twenty four frames a second with film, every single 204 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: one of those frames being for the electronic world being 205 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: blown up so that animators can go in and and 206 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: hand draw elements onto those frames, each of those frames 207 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: having to go through multiple exposures depending upon how many 208 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: colors you had, because each time you added a different color, 209 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: you had to do another level. You had to photograph 210 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: everything all over again. Uh, you're you're talking frames. If 211 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: you start doing the math. If you're thinking fifty three 212 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: minutes that because well, I don't want to do the 213 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: math right now, but I think, well, this thing is 214 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: it's um if it goes through the math. Do you 215 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: say this can't be done? Because just doing the colors 216 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: on each frame, the average number of exposures was I 217 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: think eighteen. Some of the frames in Tron were exposed 218 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: thirty six times. And because everything had to be held 219 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: in focus so that the blow ups were sharp, and 220 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: the blow ups are about the size of place Matt, 221 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: there was no depth of field. At seventy millimeter had 222 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: those light levels, So it wasn't those cameras. Those seventy 223 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: millimeter cameras were used by David Lean to shoot Lawrence 224 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: of Arabia, and afterwards I really understood why, because in 225 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: the desert there's enough light. But for any of the 226 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: situations we were in, I had to shoot characters when 227 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: they were speaking to each other and over the shoulder shots. 228 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: They had to be shot on separate passes. So I 229 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: would have Bruce in the foreground with no Jeff that 230 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: he was talking to looking at, and I get him 231 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: in focus, and then I get him out of the 232 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: frame and then I bring in Jeff and he'd say 233 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: his lines, and I chewed them separately, each one held 234 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: in focus, and then they were put together. But yeah, 235 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: that the in animation, there's a thing called an exposure sheet, 236 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: and it's showed. It tells the animation cameraman what levels 237 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: are photographed and what order, and there there's about, I 238 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: don't know, three seconds of animation per exposure sheet. And 239 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: so what we did was we took those exposure sheets 240 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: and instead of that sheet being filled in for three seconds, 241 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: which is seventy two frames, it was one frame in tron, 242 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: one exposure sheet per whole sheet, three seconds of animation 243 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: per individual frame. But again, it was only possible to 244 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: put all of this together through animation. We were under 245 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: an extreme deadline, I heard all. I never was given 246 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: a real good reason by Disney why we were in 247 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: such a rush, but we were. And I've heard various 248 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: theories over the years that there was, you know, some 249 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: competition in the marketplace that summer, and so that's why 250 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: they wanted us to come out then. But sometimes I 251 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: wonder what would have happened if we had come out 252 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: the following winter, which made more sense, and that would 253 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: have given us six more months. I mean it was 254 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the deadline was so severe that, um, we took only 255 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: one day off every fourteen days. That was the legal limit. 256 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: So um, we would work thirteen days and then we 257 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: get one day off, and then we worked thirteen days 258 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: in it one day off, and to complete the rephotography 259 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: of all these blown up frames. Um, at the end, 260 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: I think we had twelve this division animation stands going 261 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, three shifts on each and 262 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: the strain on the film in terms of getting it done. 263 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: From a director standpoint, that was kind of crazy. But 264 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: because I was new to this, you know, I just 265 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: accepted it. But the picture was after I shot all 266 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: the live action that the film had to be completed 267 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: in three weeks blocked, so not one frame of the 268 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: movie could be changed. Frames could be taken out and removed, 269 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: but I couldn't change or add anything. So you know, 270 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: now directors get three or four months to live with 271 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: their movie in the editing room, I had three weeks 272 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: after that it was locked. And the thing that's interesting 273 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: is what I had to lock was actors in there, 274 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: unaltered tron suits on all black stage and then I 275 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: had no computer animation yet because that wasn't done. So 276 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: when I locked the movie and said this is the 277 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: movie I'm making, there were no effects in it. There 278 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: were no colors in it. It was black and white. 279 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: Many of the scenes just had individual actors because you know, 280 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: it was one or the other, like I said, and 281 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: there was just storyboards are a little little brains that 282 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: said effect goes here a solar sailor. And at that 283 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: point I had to say, okay, I signed off, this 284 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: is the movie we're going to release. From there on, 285 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: we just did nine months of filling it all in. 286 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: It's um Yeah, in retrospect it was insane, but at 287 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: the time it's compared to working on dron to Drown Legacy, 288 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: where everything was compositied in real time, where you could 289 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: just put the you know, computer animation together with the background, 290 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: together with the actors, and you know, you could make 291 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: changes up until like I don't know, a couple of 292 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: weeks before the movie was in theaters. Yeah, this is 293 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: a time where you can't even you can't even review 294 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: the footage immediately afterward obviously because you've got the filt 295 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: you have to process everything. So oh yeah, of course 296 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: there's no video tap. I mean, you know, you shoot 297 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: it and it goes off to the lab and then 298 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: you see it the next day in dailies at lunchtime. Um. 299 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: There was also no time to do reshoots or reduce um. 300 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean it was standard procedure on tron legacy that 301 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: when affects shots or shots were composited, that there would 302 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: be multiple reduce on each shot every frame. It was 303 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: none of that. I mean we were flying blind and 304 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: then we had to commit. Um. Once in a while, 305 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: when something was really screwed up, I would get to 306 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: redo it or reshoot a recomposite. But often what we 307 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: did we say, okay, there's a mistake. How can we 308 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: incorporate this mistake into the visuals or into the story, 309 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: and uh, we just went with it. So yeah, yeah, 310 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: I imagine that meant that you had a lot of 311 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: story boarding that was very precise from the very get go, 312 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: so that you could you could well, the team of 313 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: talented people I had was unbelievable, once in a lifetime. 314 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: I it was one of the great joys of making 315 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: the film. And uh yeah, incredible. I mean the team 316 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: I had from Listener Studios, my guys, some of whom 317 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: came from Disney originally and then left Disney and worked 318 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: at Listburger Studios and then ironically they found themselves back 319 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: at Disney. But we storyboarded the whole film before we 320 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: ever got to Disney, and we did all this artwork 321 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: for all the different thing you know, aspects the m 322 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: c P and all solar Sailor and the life cycles. 323 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: That was all done, but it was done by us 324 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: in house, and it was it was interesting that then 325 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: when I got to Disney and they said, well, you know, 326 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: if you wanted, if you could have a dream, what 327 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: would it be. And I would say, well, I'd like 328 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: Mobius to go over these storyboards, and then I'd like 329 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: sit Me to go over our vehicle designs, and both 330 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: of them to go are my costume designs, and I 331 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: like Peter Lloyd to go over production paintings. And so 332 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: what what worked out great is that we never approached 333 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: these great artists and said to him, we just have 334 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: a blank piece of paper and now I'm going to 335 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: explain to you what I'm trying to get to. It 336 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: was it was so much better that we said, look, 337 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: this is as good as we can get this, and 338 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: we're pretty confident that you know, there's more room to 339 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: improve this, and they never let us down. And I 340 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: think they really like that, you know, because they look 341 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: at our artwork and they go, yeah, this is really nice, 342 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: but this or why didn't you do that? Or why 343 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: didn't you do this? And Mobius would say, you know, 344 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: you could shoot this this way, but if you shot 345 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: it from this angle and if you showed this, then 346 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: the audience would know that. And uh, yeah, it was 347 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: amazing that it's awesome and it's great that you already had, 348 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, a nice idea to go in with and 349 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: not have to run the risk of asking an artist 350 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: to contribute and then say, oh, but that doesn't really 351 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: fit in what I was you know, and said that. 352 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: And the thing is I wasn't used to this part 353 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: of it either. The team that, you know, my guys 354 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: at List for Studios, we would throw stuff out all 355 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: the time and we would say, well, you know, that 356 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: looked good last week, but why don't we try this 357 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: LFE cycle design this week. And it was a learning 358 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: curve for me to work with, you know, Sid and 359 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: Mobius and they would say, no, this is it. There 360 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: are changes, there's no revisions. I'm not doing this again. 361 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: That was amazing. It would be at a little bit 362 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: like walking up to Da Vincian saying yeah, but yeah, 363 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: it go that way. Could you put some of the 364 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: life cycle an he hands it to you, you don't 365 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: say to him, he said, what about this? We do that? 366 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: You know, you know how about mud flaps. And it's like, now, 367 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: I don't think so at of thing that happened with 368 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: the LFE cycles. I will interject this and it never bothered. Said, 369 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: is that we sent the life cycles to MAGI, which 370 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: was Phil Middleman's company UM in New York. We had 371 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: three computer companies. One was in New York State and 372 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: that's where Chris Wedge used to work, who went on 373 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: to Great Blue Sky Studios and do ice age. And 374 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: then we had a company out here called Triple I 375 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: where Richard Taylor was. And then we also used Robert 376 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: Abeles company who was in Hollywood. But when I sent 377 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: the first LFE cycle drawings that said did to uh, Magi, 378 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: they said, we can't do this. The curves are too complex, 379 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: we can't render this. You don't have enough you know power, 380 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: it won't work. And I knew that, you know, it 381 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: was an incredible design. We all loved it, and so 382 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: I thought about it this I remember this was over 383 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: a weekend, some Sunday, and so then I said, how 384 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: do I keep the integrity of Sid's designed but simplify 385 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: it for the computer. And already, you gotta imagine, it 386 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: was already really simple in terms of color and shading. 387 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: And then I, I don't know how where I got 388 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: this idea, but I got the idea of what if 389 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: you took the bike, which was very three D, and 390 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: squeezed parts of it between two pieces of glass. To 391 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: imagine that squeezing it between two pieces of glass. So 392 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: if you look at it from the side, what I 393 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: did was I kept that faring in the front from 394 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: the way Sid designed it, but I flattened everything else 395 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: that was also full of all these compound curves, just 396 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: like I was pressing a piece of glass against it. 397 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: And that did it. We got enough of the complexity 398 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: out of it so that the computer guys could do it. 399 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: And by the way, I want to say one thing 400 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: about Magi that it was pretty funny, which is that 401 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: they're One of the main reasons their tanks in the 402 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: first Tron movie is because when I first went to MATCHI, 403 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: which was really early on. I was keeping track of 404 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: their capabilities, like years before we ever Matron. Their first 405 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: major contract was with the military to do tank simulations. 406 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: This was all the way back in the mid seventies. 407 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: This was totally like far out crazy stuff, you know, 408 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: darker stuff and mag I was doing. You know, it 409 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: looked like very crude video games, but it was tank oriented. 410 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: So then I at some point came to me and said, 411 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: if you know, if these chas vehicles are tanks, you're 412 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: going to be able to, you know, do a lot 413 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: of this pretty effectively because of your tank experience. And 414 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: they said, yeah, so that's why you know the tanks 415 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: worked out so well. Well, I'm I'm curious now kind 416 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: of stepping back from the the meta tech of how 417 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: the movie came to be and kind of diving into 418 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: the the actual content of the film itself. This is 419 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: a really big treat for me because not only do 420 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: I get to talk about filmmaking approaches and technology that 421 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: I totally geek out about, but I can also talk 422 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: about the mythology of Tron, which is incredible. It's very 423 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: prescient in a lot of ways that I'm not even 424 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: certain that that you guys were aware of at the time, 425 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: like things that that to me became really big conversation 426 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: points a decade or more further out from when the 427 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: film came out. Oh yeah, I mean, I'll tell you 428 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: something that will bloil your mind. I had a revelation 429 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: about the mythology of Tron the first movie two days ago. 430 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: I'm serious, because in discussions about Tron two and discussions about, 431 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, theoretical discussions about what the Tron three would be, 432 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it sheds light all the way 433 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: back to the first film, and I realized, oh, this 434 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: is why I was doing that. And I never really 435 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: understood that that clearly until you know, so, yeah, it's 436 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: that aspect of it. It's funny because I like to 437 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: talk about the technical achievement of Tron and the incredible 438 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: work and all the talented people that worked on it, 439 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: and I mean talked about unsung heroes, you know, Richard 440 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 1: with Richard Taylor and Bill Kroyer did and and there 441 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: the teams and all the three companies. I could go 442 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: on all day about how great that whole group was. 443 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: But then people go see Listenerger, he's such a geek. 444 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: You know he doesn't love story or characters, and that's 445 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: not true at all. I mean, what what actually got 446 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: Tron gave me the energy to make Tron was not 447 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: the geeky energy of computer graphics. What what motivated me 448 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: for years and made me put everything on the line 449 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: were the characters. And it was that story in particular. 450 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: And then I got so excited because I saw that 451 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: there was a chance we could actually do it with 452 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: this technology. But looking back at it, um, I have 453 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: to say that, you know, I is I was inspired 454 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: by the experiences of my own life up to that point, 455 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: even though I was young, and the story works on 456 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: many levels for me personally. Um so, yeah, I care 457 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: about that pretty deeply. I would say, well, it's the 458 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: effects of the film are phenomenal and I love them. 459 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: But as people have pointed out numerous times over the years, 460 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: effects don't make a story. And if you rely too 461 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: heavily upon the the bedazzle of effects and you sacrifice 462 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: the story, then you know, I don't find myself talking 463 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: about those films later on, right, I don't know, there's 464 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: nothing but nothing to hang on. Yeah, I know, well, 465 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: they don't resonate past to the you know, the moment. 466 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 1: The the thing that I've been thinking about and the 467 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: revelation I just had recently is that if you look 468 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: at if you look at a movie like Star Wars 469 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: or Um or an Avatar or Um Wonder Woman or 470 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: four Thoris of an example, the worlds of those films 471 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: are epic. I mean, there's nothing more epic than Nordic 472 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: mythology and spaces as epic as it gets, and it's infinity, 473 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: it's everything. So what happens in those films is that 474 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: Star Wars or a thor what happens is that you 475 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: get to have comedic characters because that they make the 476 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: epic grandeur of the setting relatable. So you know, it's 477 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: called Star Wars, which is about his epic, a tie 478 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: it as you could ever come up with. But then 479 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, Luke is kind of a goofy farm boy 480 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: with his you know and his robot friends are you know, 481 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: pretty funny. So you know, that's how we relate to 482 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: the epic. And the what I'm getting at where this 483 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: connects with Tron is that Tron has is kind of 484 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: the opposite formula if you think about it, because when 485 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: we did Tron one, all there was was you know, 486 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: pong games, and no one looks at a palm game 487 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: and says this is epic. You know, people stand out 488 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: at night and look at the stars and say this 489 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: is epic, but they don't stand in front of a 490 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: palm game in a bar and you know, look at 491 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: the the pong bar table and say this is epic. 492 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: So what we did was we kind of with the 493 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: character of Flynn, we added it's kind of an epic character, 494 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: you a non ethic world. And I think that for 495 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: the people that struggled with Tron, and some people still 496 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: do and say, you know, I don't get that movie. 497 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: Why are people excited about it? I think what what 498 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: they struggle with, even though they wouldn't necessarily say it, 499 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: is they struggle with the idea that something epic can 500 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: come and significant or grand can come out of something 501 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: that isn't well. And and to kind of continue your 502 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: your point, uh, you know, if you look at it 503 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: on the scale of something like Star Wars or thor, 504 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: you're talking about this cosmological scale, and when you're talking 505 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,479 Speaker 1: about Tron, you're talking about diving into a virtual space 506 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: that's confined within a very you know, limited physical space. 507 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: It's within a computer. It's almost like you're literally going 508 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: as small scale as you can get. We're talking about information, 509 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: not even a physical thing at this point, right, Well, 510 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: that's that's I think one of the reasons people are 511 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: drawn to take sort of sanctuary in the digital world, 512 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: and we do it all the time, is because we 513 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: control it. It's finite. You know, even though it's gotten 514 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: as complex as it is compared to the universe, it 515 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: still feels like it's ours. We can manage it, we 516 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: put it together, we can alter it. But you know, 517 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: the universe, we're getting really bad at dealing with the universe. 518 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: And so I think, well, it's also this is all 519 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: very generational because my generation traditionally, and certainly people older 520 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: than me just I can't tell you. I don't know 521 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: how old you are, but I'm sure you're younger than me. 522 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: People were terror fight of computers, just terrified, and Disney 523 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: was terrified, every you know, everybody was. And it's like 524 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: young people come along and they say, well, this scares 525 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: the hell out of my parents. What power is actually 526 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: here that does that? A little bit? Like, yeah, if 527 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: dad has a problem understanding this and it freaks them out. 528 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: I got to learn what this is about. And so 529 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: the idea that something significant was going to come out 530 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: of these you know, these limited worlds with this you know, 531 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: information storage and manipulation that was embraced by the next generation, 532 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: but it was you know, none of something that older 533 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: people wanted to accept, and they created this weird schism 534 00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: over the years with tron. I mean, you know, some 535 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: people said, oh my god, you know how this is 536 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: terrible if things go in this direction. And then twenty 537 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: years later they were doing ads for Apple computers and 538 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: I've I've seen that arc and people don't change. Generations change, 539 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: and um. The other thing, as long as I'm thinking 540 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: down this avenue is that I think the fundamental change 541 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: with the threat of computers. At the time, you know, 542 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: everybody was worried about, oh, you know, the computers are 543 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: going to take my personal data and they're going to 544 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: use it against me. I'm gonna lose my privacy. And 545 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: who could have predicted that they would take all our 546 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: personal data but they wouldn't have to battle us for it. 547 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: We would line up to hand it over. It's called Facebook, okay, 548 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: it's called you know everything else that you know wants 549 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: our credit card number, and so that has been you 550 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: know about no one anticipated that, no one back then, 551 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: and Tom didn't anticipate that either that. You know, I 552 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: talked to some of the heaviest people in the field 553 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: of computers back then, and you know, they would give 554 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: me notes and some of them would give me story suggestions, 555 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: but no one ever gave me a note that said, 556 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to hand. It's not that we're 557 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: going to fear it and battle it. We're gonna run 558 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: towards it as fast as we can. And it's and 559 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time thinking about how that 560 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: really happened or on what that really means, what are 561 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: the repercussions of that, And what I came away with 562 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: on that is that that computers put us, put the 563 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: users in a situation where they said, look, we'll take 564 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: care of the cognitive problems, so you're liberated from that, 565 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: and what what you can do with your extra time 566 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: is indulge your feelings. And you know, because that's what 567 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: we like to do. You know, we we get adding 568 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: machines so we don't have to do the math, so 569 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: then we can you know, go to the movies instead 570 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: of doing the math, and we can enjoy our emotions 571 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: and feelings. And that has continued to advance. You know. 572 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: It used to be like, okay, I'm not going to 573 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: learn too much math because I have an adding machine 574 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: and you know, now I have spell check, well, you know, 575 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: and then it's like, well I don't. Pretty soon I'm 576 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: not even gonna have to drive my car drive itself. 577 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: And so all these cognitive things are being you know, 578 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: we're so called being liberated from and then we're just 579 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: all about our feelings. And you know, we wanted that 580 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: for a long time. But in the past people humanity 581 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: dreamt about it the other way. You know, for hundreds 582 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: of years, people philosophers dreamt of a world that was 583 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: guided by reason because it was too much about people's feelings. 584 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: And you know, science and philosophy advanced so we could 585 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: get to this point where reason sort of determined our 586 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: our fate because reason is connected to underlying truth that endures. 587 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: That's why, that's what reason is. But emotions don't work 588 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: that way of you know, you can think that it's 589 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: worth you know, dying one moment for something. You know, 590 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: if I don't get invited to the problem, I should 591 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: you be better off dead, and then a month later 592 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: you could forget that you ever felt that way. And 593 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: so now we're we're kind of living in the age 594 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: of Trump where I'm digressing, I know, but we're living 595 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: in the age of Trump. We're it's all about these 596 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,479 Speaker 1: feelings every day, and we have we have the way 597 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: of of expressing those feelings to a larger audience than 598 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: ever before, instantaneously as soon as we feel you know. 599 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: So the cognitive power of computers has ironically completely liberated 600 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: our emotional feely side. Touchy feely side gets to stand 601 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: out every thought in his head because of Twitter whenever whenever, 602 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: whenever a disgruntled employee of Twitter isn't deleting his account. Yeah, 603 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: so weird relationship we've developed with technology. And I go 604 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: all the way back to you know, the early Toron days, 605 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: and I can see what we thought then, and I 606 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: can you know, I've experienced the arc you know, from 607 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: there to hear it's it's really interesting. Well, what's fascinating 608 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 1: to me is that you know, you talked about this 609 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: this thing about computers that were very scary to one 610 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: generation and very promising to the next. Uh. My background 611 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 1: is interestingly for me anyway, not not in technology. My background, 612 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: My scholarly background was in medieval literature and history. And 613 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: the funny thing is, you see the exact same story 614 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: play out upon the invention of the Guttenberg Press, because 615 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: it was taking taking books away from us, you know, exactly. Yeah. 616 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: Instead of instead of it being the church that was 617 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: completely in charge of creating manuscripts and books, it now 618 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: became the domain of printers who could produce them much 619 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: more quickly, which meant that people could actually own books 620 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: for the first time because they weren't prohibitively expensive, and 621 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: that transformed the Renaissance. Really, you could argue that was 622 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: an enormous inflorance on it, just as computers have been 623 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: granted a much more accelerated, but a similar transformative element 624 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: in our own society. So this kind of knowing this 625 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: sort of stuff, I mean, granted, a lot of this 626 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: stuff kind of evolved over the years since Tron has 627 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: come out and in some ways can change the way 628 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: we view Tron, which I actually I think that's great 629 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: for any piece of art, right that you can revisit 630 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: that piece of art and it means something new to 631 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: you based upon your experiences and the way the world 632 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: has changed. That's one of the wonderful things into how 633 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: what a relationship was with all of those things, the 634 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: things of the moment and eternal things at that moment 635 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: in time. M hm, you know. I mean, I'll tell 636 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: you another sort of past and future mechanism that I 637 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: thought about primarily after I made Tron, which is that, 638 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, the character of Flynn is kind of you know, afterwards, 639 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: I did quite a bit of study about the archetype 640 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: of the shaman character and what it what does the 641 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: shaman character do traditionally, And traditionally he he heals a 642 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: person who has lost their spirit because their spirit has 643 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: gone into you know, the nether world, the spirit world, 644 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: and that is why the person here is sick. And 645 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: the shaman has the power and the crossover into the 646 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: spirit world. And then because he has powers there, he 647 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: can retrieve the spirit of his friend, bring it back 648 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: to this world, and then put the two together. And 649 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: I'm reading about this, like, you know, specifics about this 650 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: twenty years later, and and then I'm thinking about what 651 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: Flynn did in the first movie, Alan and you know, 652 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: Laura come to him and they're sick. Why because they've 653 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: lost their spirit, they've lost their programs, and it's making 654 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: them sick. And he has lost information too. And then 655 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: he ends up crossing over into the digital realm and 656 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: you know what does he do there? He freeze them 657 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: up so that they can now get in touch the 658 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: you know, the information that is the Tron program can 659 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: get in touch with the user can get in touch 660 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: with it, and you know, and then he comes back 661 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: to this world. And I thought, you know, this is 662 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: this is pretty crazy that it's the role of the shaman, 663 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: but in a in a digital environment. And I wasn't 664 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: really thinking about that when I came up with it. 665 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: And not only that, but a role of a shaman, 666 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: a shaman taking the role of essentially our protagonist, uh, 667 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: the hero of the story, the one who makes the 668 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: who defeats the bad guy at the end. You know, 669 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: we have Tron, but we follow Flynn. Obviously, that makes 670 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: sense because Flynn is from our world, so we're seeing 671 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: the world of Tron through his eyes. That's very necessary 672 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: for the grounding of that for the audience. But it 673 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: is also interesting that that in a traditional narrative, we 674 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 1: would be following the story of Tron, right you start, 675 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: you follow the story of the guy who slays the 676 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: dragon at the end, uh, and so instead we're following 677 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: the character that enables that to happen. And yeah, it's 678 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: pretty funny that when at the end of Tron where 679 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 1: she says, you know, Flynn really did it, and Tron 680 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: doesn't know that, you know, he managed to overcome the 681 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: m c P because of what Flynn did. That that 682 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 1: happened on a whole, whole dimensional level above his head literally, 683 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: and he looks at her and he goes, oh, okay, 684 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: I really know what to do with that information. Yeah, 685 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, and I just I this thought popped into 686 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: my head, which is that, according to this definition of 687 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: what a shaman is, you could almost say that, um, 688 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz is a shaman story that Judy Garland's 689 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: character she crosses over to the other world and what 690 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: does she do. She helps her friends become whole. She 691 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: gets them a hard brain. It's a very similar mechanism. Absolutely. Yeah, 692 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 1: it's a interesting I had not even thought of that, 693 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: but that is a very a very apt uh comparison, 694 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: especially since Dorothy again is going into a world completely 695 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: unlike our own that has its own rules. As some history. 696 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:11,880 Speaker 1: I never thought of Dorothy as a shaman, but she is. Yeah. Well, 697 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: I have another question for you. This is one that 698 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: that not only I need to know, but my producer 699 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: Ramsey needs to know, and that is Master Control Program 700 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 1: m c P, one of the one of the great 701 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: villains of science fiction. What what what was? Did you 702 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,839 Speaker 1: have any specific inspirations for m c P, perhaps with 703 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: any other organizations that might have three letters in their 704 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: name or anything along those lines. Or from the beginning, 705 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: he was always machine like and when I want to 706 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 1: and there was a sort of Wizard of Oz component 707 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: to him too, speaking Wizard of Oz, because you know, 708 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 1: he was smoking mirrors and in the end he was that, 709 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,360 Speaker 1: you know a little. It all started with that little 710 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: chess player. But um, when I went to Triple I, 711 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,760 Speaker 1: they had one of the three computer companies. They had 712 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: created a juggling human character wearing a top hat who 713 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: um looked very human. He barely moved. He just stood 714 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: in one position and his arms moved and he juggled 715 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of balls and but he didn't speak or 716 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,959 Speaker 1: anything like that. And I don't think he ever moved 717 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,879 Speaker 1: his speed either. And then I saw that we I 718 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,600 Speaker 1: saw this, this image popped into my head that like 719 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz, we could have his face on 720 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: this machine like exterior that we had been creating for 721 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: the m c P and uh. But then we couldn't 722 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,720 Speaker 1: render it in flesh tones and have it speak because 723 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: we just didn't have enough computing power. So the only 724 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: way we could actually we do it was in wire France. 725 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: So you know, we we recorded David Warner's voice doing it, 726 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 1: and then we altered his voice and then we you know, 727 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: did what animators have always done is sync up the images, 728 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, the face with the soundtrack and the MCP 729 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: is really I guess the first talking had the first 730 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: c G character that ever was. And I always liked 731 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: the idea that you can be outside of him or 732 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: you can be inside of him. The scene where Sark 733 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: is actually you know, at the pedestal and the m 734 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,919 Speaker 1: CP surround him. I like that that. You know, it's 735 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 1: that's a relationship with the technology. We can be objective 736 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,879 Speaker 1: to it or we can be subjected to being inside 737 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: the technology and it's completely surround this. I always pictured 738 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: him as kind of a it's funny processor, like a 739 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,759 Speaker 1: food processor, because he's kind of like a juicer. You 740 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: think about it. You know, he brings in these programs 741 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: and he these entities and then he juices them to 742 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 1: extract their information. And I'll tell you a little funny 743 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,280 Speaker 1: um story about the m c P and Flynn, which 744 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: is that I didn't know that Jeff who's contribution. I 745 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 1: can't stop bragging about how you know, great he is 746 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: in that role, but um, and I cast him, so 747 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: the h that was my contribution. He did the rest, 748 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,239 Speaker 1: but he Um, I didn't know he was going to 749 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 1: do this clue persona. And so we started filming the 750 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: tank scene and he was doing it and it was 751 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: really cool and it was a daring move on his part. 752 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: But then the m c P the recognizers come and 753 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: they capture Clue and then they put him in the 754 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: m c P and uh, he starts getting d rez 755 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: and then he starts screaming for his life and Jeff 756 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: delivers this great, you know, heartfelt moment of like, you know, 757 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm not giving into you, MCP. But he doesn't do 758 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: it in the clue voice. He does it as in 759 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: his real voice, and neither of us caught that. No 760 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: one caught that inconsistency that if you think about it, 761 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: that should have been in the Clue program voice but 762 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: and you know, but it isn't. And it's a little 763 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 1: bit like it's kind of freaky because it's a little 764 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 1: bit like Clue was dying. And then the last thing 765 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: he did was act like you know, a user just 766 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: before the end. So that's you know, was kind of 767 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: a happy accident. But anyway, the the m c P 768 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: was was like, you know, a food processor with people 769 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: or characters. And that design actually did not change all 770 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: that much. I mean it was it was worked over 771 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: brilliantly by sid Mead and improved a lot, but that 772 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: the through line went back years. Well, I guess, uh 773 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: you know, to me just seeing that that image, uh, 774 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:49,759 Speaker 1: that that enormous had that booming voice, it's consuming the 775 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: the information uh from from other programs. To me today, 776 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,400 Speaker 1: like when I think of the Internet voice, that's the 777 00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: voice that's in my head. It's the voice of m 778 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 1: c P as it's consuming and you know, talking again 779 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: about pressions, like there's so much here about the merging 780 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: of what it is to be human and the technology 781 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: that we created. It really really seems like the singularity, 782 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,360 Speaker 1: like that concept of the singularity of of humans elevating 783 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: themselves to the next level, perhaps merging with machines or 784 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,960 Speaker 1: incorporating machines in some way. Sometimes it doesn't involve that, 785 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: but but a lot of the versions of the Singularity do. 786 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: This seems like, uh, it was very much in that 787 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: that sort of vein, like this idea of you know, 788 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: there were no we didn't use the term user before 789 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: Tron and people didn't know what the word meant, and 790 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,320 Speaker 1: people didn't have computers. I mean, there were no really 791 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, handful, but people were and they were crude 792 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: at best. So, um, this whole idea of your sort 793 00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:00,799 Speaker 1: of your alter ego, your avatar, the you know in 794 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: there in the form of your information that just keeps 795 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:10,840 Speaker 1: building every year, so that you know, it's it's getting 796 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,319 Speaker 1: to the point where we really are creating, as much 797 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: as possible, a double ganger of ourselves digitally. And I mean, 798 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is that Nintendo, I've heard, has 799 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: done studies on how people texture themselves in their mind's eye, 800 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:38,600 Speaker 1: and they've come to the conclusion that we imagine ourselves 801 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: is somewhat a cartoon version of ourselves. And I think 802 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that Nintendo video games as 803 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: successful and brilliant as they are. I mean, part of 804 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:55,800 Speaker 1: that success I think comes from working with that theory 805 00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: that you know, they're not realistic, and I say think 806 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: that the idea of a realistic double Ganger a sort 807 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: of copy of ourselves. I think that that's a in 808 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: some ways maybe more challenging, and I think that's part 809 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:21,279 Speaker 1: of the challenge that we're actually facing that you know, 810 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,680 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit like not only we're creating 811 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: a double Gang or Earth and a digital one. And 812 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I think we feel good about 813 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: that because it doesn't confound us like the universe. You know, 814 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,600 Speaker 1: it has problems like hackers and trolls. But yeah, we 815 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: can deal with that. But you know, because ultimately those 816 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: are people are and we don't understand its CEO two. Yeah, 817 00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:03,440 Speaker 1: you know. I uh, well, Stephen Listberger, this has been 818 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,640 Speaker 1: a huge thrill for me to to talk to the 819 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,680 Speaker 1: writer and director of a film that, you know what 820 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: played a big part in my childhood and I watch 821 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,239 Speaker 1: it frequently, so I have inc I want to take 822 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: this opportunity to thank you for your quarters. Oh there 823 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,800 Speaker 1: have been an I didn't even get into the arcades 824 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: section of this, because I mean, you know, I just 825 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,840 Speaker 1: had to had one footnote because I can't resist, which is, 826 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 1: you know people always talking about, well, the first Tron, 827 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, it didn't make enough money, it wasn't eat well. 828 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 1: The movie paid for itself as a movie, but the 829 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:46,200 Speaker 1: video game paid for the entire movie. Too many a 830 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: week's allowance went into disks of Tron for me. I 831 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: remember the full console, like the one you would step 832 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,360 Speaker 1: in and play and uh and yeah, I played a 833 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,120 Speaker 1: lot of that game. Yeah. Do you know about the 834 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 1: tron right in Shanghai. I have heard about this, I 835 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,000 Speaker 1: have not made my way to Asia yet and set 836 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 1: it out on YouTube. Tron Shanghai and it's pretty amazing. 837 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,520 Speaker 1: They worked on that ride for over fifteen years. Actually happened. Yeah, 838 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: I've heard. I've heard about a new one to do 839 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,320 Speaker 1: it in Florida now. So I'm really excited about that 840 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,480 Speaker 1: because you know, the thing is, like you said earlier, 841 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,920 Speaker 1: people think of Tron and you know, it's sometimes too 842 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,439 Speaker 1: literally like oh, you know, it's a small world in there. 843 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's a small world after all, And but 844 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 1: it's funny because with the Tron ride, the world of 845 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: Tron is immense. You're small and you get on the ride, 846 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: and in some ways that's the whole you know, that's 847 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 1: the most thrilling part to be small and have that 848 00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: recognizer looming over your head, for instance. Yeah, make that 849 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,120 Speaker 1: lead to realize, oh, you know, this world is not small, 850 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,080 Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's really cool to ride. But anyway, yeah, 851 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,800 Speaker 1: the game and the ride, I mean, I can't wait 852 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,600 Speaker 1: to experience the ride. I really, I really am looking 853 00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,680 Speaker 1: forward to that. The game remains one of my favorites. 854 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,080 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a child of the seventies and eighties, 855 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,360 Speaker 1: so the Arcade experience was really an important one for 856 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: me growing up. Also, Tron obviously being in that realm 857 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,600 Speaker 1: of For a lot of people, it was kind of 858 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,240 Speaker 1: their introduction to this concept of taking taking a very 859 00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,240 Speaker 1: abstract idea in the form of computer program and really 860 00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 1: turning it into something relatable. I mean, to have a 861 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,680 Speaker 1: computer program that could technically just be oh, well, this 862 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 1: is just a spreadsheet program, but no, in this world 863 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:54,680 Speaker 1: that is a an anthropomorphic creation that can fight for you. 864 00:58:55,120 --> 00:59:01,040 Speaker 1: That's uh pretty amazing concept. I this was a huge 865 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: thrill for me. I thank you so much. Yeah, if 866 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: you get a chance to get a word in. I mean, 867 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,280 Speaker 1: I'll totally be an extra in Tron three. I'm I'm 868 00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,160 Speaker 1: happy to be Yeah, just sitting at sitting off at 869 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: the side. I'm perfectly fine. I just want to I 870 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: want to be in the room where it happens as 871 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: they say, thank you for joining me again. Okay, you too. Bye. 872 00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,360 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that discussion with Mr Lisburger. I 873 00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,680 Speaker 1: could have easily kept talking for another hour or two 874 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: with him, and I get the feeling he would have 875 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: indulged me for as long as he had the time 876 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,000 Speaker 1: to do so. I've always had an appreciation for Tron 877 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,280 Speaker 1: I've always enjoyed that movie ever since it first came out, 878 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 1: But now that appreciation is even more profound, knowing the 879 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,960 Speaker 1: challenges that the team faced in order to produce this 880 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,880 Speaker 1: movie at the time that it was made, going to 881 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,920 Speaker 1: the point where you would swear that this was computer 882 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: generated imagery, and then knowing that it was hand animated, 883 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: hand drawn on top of actual individual cells of film. 884 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: It's incredible to think of how much work and care 885 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,080 Speaker 1: and love went into this film and created that distinctive 886 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,000 Speaker 1: look and feel. And also, I really do hope I 887 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,280 Speaker 1: can show up in Rawn three The Balls in Your 888 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: Court Disney call me. That wraps up this episode of 889 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,680 Speaker 1: tech Stuff. If you guys have any suggestions for future 890 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: topics that I could cover on this show, write me. 891 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,760 Speaker 1: Why don't you the email address to use this tech 892 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com or you can 893 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,160 Speaker 1: drop me a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle 894 01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,960 Speaker 1: for the show at both of those is tech stuff 895 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,919 Speaker 1: h s W. And of course you can come over 896 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,240 Speaker 1: to twitch dot tv slash tech stuff to watch me 897 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,640 Speaker 1: record shows live on Wednesdays and Friday's. The schedule is 898 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,760 Speaker 1: up there at that link. Just go to twitch dot 899 01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,920 Speaker 1: tv slash tech stuff. Joined the chat, be part of 900 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: the crowd. I'm always happy to chat with you guys, 901 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:11,480 Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you again really soon for more 902 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,840 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics because at house 903 01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:24,640 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com