WEBVTT - iPhone Inventor Wants to Shape the Future

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Our next guest

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<v Speaker 1>credited and with created the iPod, building the iPhone. He

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<v Speaker 1>founded the smart home company Nasty, spent more than nine

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<v Speaker 1>years at Apple, including being advisor to Steve Jobs, who

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<v Speaker 1>was then CEO and of course co founder of Apple.

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<v Speaker 1>In the past, our next guest has talked and tweeted

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<v Speaker 1>about device addiction and Silicon Valley's responsibility to fix it.

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking about Tony Fidel, the principle at Future Shape.

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<v Speaker 1>He's the founder and former CEO of Nesta Labs. As

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<v Speaker 1>Carol mentioned, he's got more than three patents to his name.

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<v Speaker 1>He's also the author of a new book. It's called Build,

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<v Speaker 1>an Unorthodox Guide to Making Things worth making. Tony joins

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<v Speaker 1>us from Palo Alto. Tony, good to talk to you again.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you great? Thanks Carol, Thanks to Tim for

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<v Speaker 1>having me. Honest. Yeah, great to be here. It's good

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<v Speaker 1>to have you with us. Hey, we gotta start with

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<v Speaker 1>the iPod because the end of an era this week. Tony,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, you know, but Apple, after twenty years only

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<v Speaker 1>discontinuing the iPod um. This is a this is a

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<v Speaker 1>product that you are credited with helping invent. Uh talk

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<v Speaker 1>to us about what it means for Apple to discontinue

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<v Speaker 1>it and the impact that the iPod has had not

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<v Speaker 1>just on Apple but on consumer technology. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the iPod is it's bitter sweet, obviously if you see

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<v Speaker 1>your baby go. But you know, at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the day, the march of technology, the drumbeat of technology

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<v Speaker 1>never stops, right, And I've been in this business long

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<v Speaker 1>enough to know that you can't get to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>two wedded to any one thing because you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>might have to eat your own And that's exactly what

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<v Speaker 1>the iPhone did. You know, the iPod um created the

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<v Speaker 1>conditions that Apple to be able to make the iPhone.

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<v Speaker 1>So without the iPod there would have been no iPhone.

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<v Speaker 1>So it feels really good to know that what we

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<v Speaker 1>did in the iPod and brought Apple into where it

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<v Speaker 1>is today. You know, it's yeah, it was last week,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, the most valuable company on the planet, and

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<v Speaker 1>that was because of the iPods. What's really really wonderful

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<v Speaker 1>to know. Well, and I talked to us about your

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<v Speaker 1>journey because that's so much a part of this book,

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<v Speaker 1>um build and and who you wanted to read this

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<v Speaker 1>book and what lessons you hope are what you hope

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<v Speaker 1>people would take away from reading it? Well, I think

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<v Speaker 1>you know. I stepped back and I thought about the

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<v Speaker 1>mentors that I've had over the years. And that's the

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<v Speaker 1>reason why I'm able to talk to you today is

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<v Speaker 1>those people helped me. And if I didn't get that

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<v Speaker 1>help back in the day, maybe I would not be here.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when I thought about those mentors, most of

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<v Speaker 1>them had died, and I thought, oh, it's now my

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<v Speaker 1>turn to be mentor, And so how can I do

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<v Speaker 1>that at scale and take the journeys through companies like

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<v Speaker 1>General Magic and Phillips and Apple and Nest and all

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<v Speaker 1>the lessons learned on building transformative technology, and really the

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<v Speaker 1>books about human nature, so which so I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 1>really go for you know, what were you if you

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<v Speaker 1>were in high school or if you're in college or

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<v Speaker 1>a new grad. What do you need to know? What

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<v Speaker 1>you look behind the scenes of the product that you

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<v Speaker 1>probably grew up with and and how those were developed,

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<v Speaker 1>But not just like from a technical point of view,

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<v Speaker 1>but from a human nature point of view. Building your career,

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<v Speaker 1>building products, building teams, companies, businesses. So it's all about

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<v Speaker 1>trying to give back to help those those those people

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<v Speaker 1>with their careers um and and hopefully one day they'll

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<v Speaker 1>change the world as well. Well. So how did Steve

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<v Speaker 1>Jobs help you? Well, uh, you know, I think for me,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he helped one by giving us an environment

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<v Speaker 1>to actually thrive, to be able to create the iPod.

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<v Speaker 1>That was the first thing. But the other one is

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<v Speaker 1>really to learn about storytelling in detail. And what happens

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<v Speaker 1>is is you really need to not just create technology

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<v Speaker 1>for technology. Say that's what happened to General Magic, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's what I learned so painfully up the disaster that

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<v Speaker 1>was that company. And so watching him massively tell a story,

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<v Speaker 1>a non fictional story, through marketing and through the products

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<v Speaker 1>that we created and all the customer touch points, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you get to see a master at work. And then

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<v Speaker 1>we were able to then take those lessons and create

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<v Speaker 1>a company like nest and and change the world there

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<v Speaker 1>with a small, tiny team because we learned how to

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<v Speaker 1>do it right. And uh, Steve really was a master

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<v Speaker 1>storyteller in with using technology. Tony Fidela's principle at Future

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<v Speaker 1>shape also the founder and former CEO of Nest Labs.

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<v Speaker 1>He led the teams that helped create the iPod, iPhone

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<v Speaker 1>and the Nest Learning thermostat Tony. When when people hear

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<v Speaker 1>an intro like that, they think of all the successes

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<v Speaker 1>that you've had in your thirty plus career in hardware,

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<v Speaker 1>But your book also goes into failure, specifically the first

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<v Speaker 1>ten years of your career before you were on the

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<v Speaker 1>team at Apple that helped create the iPod. Um tell

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<v Speaker 1>tell us a about that in the lesson that you

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<v Speaker 1>learned in failing before succeeding well through failure. That's really

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<v Speaker 1>the only way you learn, you know, in school, it's taught.

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<v Speaker 1>You're taught that failure is failure um, and you need

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<v Speaker 1>to learn and get in a right um. In life,

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<v Speaker 1>it's exactly the opposite. When you fail and you keep

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<v Speaker 1>put pushing forward, you actually learned. And so the failure

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<v Speaker 1>that was General Magic, which was creating the iPhone just

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen years too soon, right, there's a whole movie about it.

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<v Speaker 1>What I learned there was that we were making a

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<v Speaker 1>product for other geeks. We were trying to impress each other.

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<v Speaker 1>We weren't trying to to solve pain for customers that

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<v Speaker 1>were in the in the world at that time. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>we didn't even know that there are such things that

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<v Speaker 1>email and downloadable games and all that stuff until fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>years later. So that was one big thing at at

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<v Speaker 1>Phillips where we created the Phillips Vilo and Ninos were

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<v Speaker 1>handheld products. I also learned about sales and marketing and

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<v Speaker 1>how critical was that if you had a great story

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<v Speaker 1>to tell it properly. Hey, Tony, hang on a second,

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna continue do a little bit more news, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we'll continue with you. Tony Fidel over at Future Shape.

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<v Speaker 1>His new book is called Build. We're going to continue

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<v Speaker 1>that conversation. You are listening and watching on YouTube Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Business Week, Carl Master, Tim Stanevic, This is Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get right back to Tony Fidel, principle

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<v Speaker 1>at Future Shape, as we talked about, you know, spent

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<v Speaker 1>nine years in Apple, you know, credited with creating the iPod,

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<v Speaker 1>building out the iPhone. He also founded the smart home

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<v Speaker 1>company Nasty. He's got a new book out. It's called Build,

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<v Speaker 1>An Unorthodox Guide to making Things worth making. And Tony,

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<v Speaker 1>what I wanted to ask you is what's worth making

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<v Speaker 1>in today's environment? What what in terms of the environment

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<v Speaker 1>just in general, like yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you how do you make things worth making?

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<v Speaker 1>So I always start with the pain. I'd much rather

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<v Speaker 1>go their customers have pain. I don't want to give

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<v Speaker 1>them vitamins, customers who some of like vitamins, not everyone

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<v Speaker 1>needs them. When you have pain, you need to, you

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<v Speaker 1>need to, you know, just squash that pain down. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's even better if you if you give them a

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<v Speaker 1>pain killer and a superpower at the same time, so

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<v Speaker 1>they can do things with the product or service that

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<v Speaker 1>they never thought possible before, and they feel like there's

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<v Speaker 1>they have new new superpowers. And so you really have

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<v Speaker 1>to focus on the pain and do it in a

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<v Speaker 1>way that people feel really amazing about it. Okay, so

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<v Speaker 1>it's clear how you did that at Nest with the

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<v Speaker 1>Nest Learning thermostat, a product that continues, I think to

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<v Speaker 1>solve a pain point in many consumers lives. We both

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<v Speaker 1>have them, Yeah, we both have them, and um, Tony,

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<v Speaker 1>but but where's the pain? Where's the pain today? Because

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<v Speaker 1>I look around and I see the innovation at a

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<v Speaker 1>company like Meta Platforms, for example, and that's the metaverse,

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<v Speaker 1>or do we feel pain in the real world and

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<v Speaker 1>need to be in the metaverse. I feel real pain

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<v Speaker 1>from the climate crisis we have, in the health crisis

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<v Speaker 1>we have, and our social crisis is we have that

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<v Speaker 1>we're generated out of this intermediation between humans. It first

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<v Speaker 1>started with text and video and photos, and now we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna say we're gonna go in the metaverse and we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna get connected and dance and have meetings. To me,

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<v Speaker 1>that's toxic. We've seen what it's done in the past.

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<v Speaker 1>You're not going to get into the metaverse. People are

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<v Speaker 1>not gonna want to go and live in there and

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<v Speaker 1>dance in there and and connect. We need to have

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<v Speaker 1>controls on that stuff before we ever. You know, we've

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<v Speaker 1>been talking about controls on text and Twitter, all these

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<v Speaker 1>other things, these social platforms. Why we want a new

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<v Speaker 1>environment where disconnects us even more and allows more toxicity

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<v Speaker 1>to grow. Let's fix the social problems we have on

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<v Speaker 1>the with the technology we have, Let's not create even

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<v Speaker 1>more of them. So let's go and also let's fix

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<v Speaker 1>the problems in the real world, the climate crisis that

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<v Speaker 1>we have. There are so many things that we need

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<v Speaker 1>to address right now and this, these these goals that

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<v Speaker 1>we have are coming so quickly. If not, we could

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<v Speaker 1>lose at all. It's it's, it's it's it's absolutely astonishing

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<v Speaker 1>to me that we are diverting incredible, smart, brilliant brains

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<v Speaker 1>and resources to things that are not solving the real

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<v Speaker 1>problems that we have today. So, you know, you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about social um and the social universe, do you think

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<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk is someone who can fix Twitter to some

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<v Speaker 1>extent um and some of the downside of that social

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<v Speaker 1>media platform. And I don't think I'm saying anything subjective.

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<v Speaker 1>I think many would argue that it can do a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of good, but it can also do a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of harm like other social media. Absolutely, it's not just Twitter,

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<v Speaker 1>there's so many things. But um could he could he

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<v Speaker 1>fix it? He could fix it if he wants to

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<v Speaker 1>fix it in the right way. I think what we

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<v Speaker 1>have to understand here is we can't just go putting

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<v Speaker 1>people back onto the Twitter platform if we don't change

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<v Speaker 1>the environment at which they come back onto it with.

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<v Speaker 1>If we continue to drive you know, revenue based on

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<v Speaker 1>amplify um, misinformation and and and these kinds of things,

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<v Speaker 1>then we have not done anything to fix Twitter or

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<v Speaker 1>fix these social networks, we have to divorce the amplification

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<v Speaker 1>mechanism from the revenue mechanism. If we don't do that,

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<v Speaker 1>the toxicity will only grow. And we can't just let

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<v Speaker 1>anyone on to say free speech, free speech in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the town square was never amplified. Should not amplify

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<v Speaker 1>that for revenue purposes? Do you think some of these

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<v Speaker 1>big tech companies have just become too big and kind

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<v Speaker 1>of too controlling in terms of the narrative? Uh, and

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<v Speaker 1>the trend of where technology is going. I think with

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<v Speaker 1>great power comes great responsibility, and if they can't rain

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<v Speaker 1>themselves in, then they're going to need to be reined

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<v Speaker 1>in by the government or what have you. The inectuity

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<v Speaker 1>is growing so dramatically and the concentration of powers growing

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<v Speaker 1>so dramatically, not just then the people who use the

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<v Speaker 1>products or are used by products, but who also the

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<v Speaker 1>ecosystems they create, and they continue to extract so much

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<v Speaker 1>revenue from apps or what have you. It needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be rebalanced. If not, we saw this in government. When

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<v Speaker 1>there's an equity, there's revolution. They're going to have revolution

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<v Speaker 1>against them if they do not ringing themselves in so

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<v Speaker 1>I do see the power growing too strong, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to have to modulate down otherwise they will be

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<v Speaker 1>they will be forced to do so. Tony. Last time

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<v Speaker 1>you and I spoke was I believe back in and

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<v Speaker 1>you were at that time pushing for controls on Apple products,

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<v Speaker 1>specifically monitors monitoring how much we were using those products

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<v Speaker 1>to give Apple customers an idea of just how much

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<v Speaker 1>time they were spending on their phones. Apple has since

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<v Speaker 1>done that. In each week I get a really depressing

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<v Speaker 1>report that shows how much time I'm spending on Apple devices.

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<v Speaker 1>Are Are you satisfied with with that type of disclosure

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<v Speaker 1>that you're seeing from Apple right now? And and what

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<v Speaker 1>have you learned after taking on that project? Well, you

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<v Speaker 1>know that was that was something that they implement and

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<v Speaker 1>based on public reaction to you know this this social

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<v Speaker 1>or the screen time addiction. Um, I think we're only

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<v Speaker 1>of the way there. It was a good start, but

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<v Speaker 1>there has been really no innovation and continuing to take

0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.559
<v Speaker 1>it to the next steps. So I think they still

0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.600
<v Speaker 1>need not just Apple, but Google, all the different platforms,

0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, PlayStation even, They need to go after and

0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.840
<v Speaker 1>and start looking at this the what they can do

0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 1>for the screen time limitations and the information, so not

0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.960
<v Speaker 1>just the tools and the control tools, but also the

0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.959
<v Speaker 1>information by which we disclose what these apps can do

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.480
<v Speaker 1>not just two kids, but also to adults. And if

0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.640
<v Speaker 1>you look at it, you know we now they now

0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.240
<v Speaker 1>added over since that they added privacy labels to tell

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.839
<v Speaker 1>you what are the privacy things that these apps do

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.599
<v Speaker 1>and don't do. Why don't we have um digital nutritional

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 1>information about what these apps can do to kids or

0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.840
<v Speaker 1>what have you when you do consume them? You know,

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 1>do they have toxic ads inside these free to play games?

0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, sure they might be might be get games

0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.600
<v Speaker 1>that kids can play. The ads that pop up. I've

0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.440
<v Speaker 1>seen it with my dark it can be very toxic

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.880
<v Speaker 1>and my Dada comes to me, you know, screaming, going

0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 1>what is this daddy? So I think we need to

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.480
<v Speaker 1>be much more on what's going on and what we're consuming.

0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.200
<v Speaker 1>Just like nutrition labels on the side of a on

0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the side of a food product, we need to have

0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.719
<v Speaker 1>that for our apps. For this kind of addictive um

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 1>qualities of certain apps. We run out of time. I

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>wish we had more. Please come back because we would

0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>love to continue this and really pick your brain to

0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 1>about thoughts when it comes to health and climate and

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 1>things that we could definitely do in a better way

0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.559
<v Speaker 1>and really address some of those errors where there is

0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.920
<v Speaker 1>pain in our society. Tony, Thank you so much Tony

0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.240
<v Speaker 1>Fidell for principle at Future Shape his new book check

0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.280
<v Speaker 1>it out, Build and Unorthodox Guide to Making Things worth

0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. Good stuff. Yeah yeah, very thought. Well, uh,

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 1>and considering all that's going on in our world,