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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five,

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Speaker 1: or she.

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Speaker 2: Had us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you, I never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me the podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two quties you've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it. I am your favorite Qutie lo LeBlanc.

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Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth also a cutie favorite an

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Speaker 2: equal favorite, Yes, double favorite qties here.

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Speaker 3: Double cutie, double fave. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Today is part one of our interview with Christina Babbin.

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Speaker 1: She is a survivor of the Children of God. She's

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Speaker 1: going to tell us about growing up in the cults,

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Speaker 1: being separated from her family, and moving from country to country,

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Speaker 1: as well as the group's love bombing, flirty fishing, and

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse practices put into place by the leader

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Speaker 1: David Berg.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll also discuss what it was like being sent

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Speaker 2: away to ABUSEI of punishment camps in Japan and the Philippines,

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Speaker 2: being trapped on a compound with armed guards surrounding the parameter,

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Speaker 2: and some of the many control tactics, including taping the

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Speaker 2: children's mouths shut if they laughed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty harrowing stuff, so heads up content warning.

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Speaker 1: We obviously definitely talk about child abuse. Skip this one

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Speaker 1: if that is too much for you, And in part

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Speaker 1: two next week we will get into the lighter side

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Speaker 1: of things. We'll talk about how she finally came to

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Speaker 1: leave the group, her first taste of freedom, and so

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Speaker 1: much more. But before we begin our journey with Christina Babin,

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Speaker 1: I would like to know something, Megan, and that is

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Speaker 1: what is the cultiest thing that has happened to you

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Speaker 1: this week?

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Speaker 3: Ooh, ooh, ooh, the cultiest thing that has happened to

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Speaker 3: me this week? I feel a little bit like this.

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Speaker 2: One isn't my best, but it is something that's happening

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Speaker 2: to me this week, which is maybe some girls out

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Speaker 2: there can relate. I just started the Tracy Anderson workout program.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever done this?

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Speaker 4: Low?

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever done any workout programs.

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Speaker 3: So no, Well, I've heard about it. People always are obsessed.

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Speaker 3: I've never wanted to whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: But I've started doing it, and I'm becoming one of

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Speaker 2: those people who won't do anything else. So it's happening.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want it to happen. I didn't expect it

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Speaker 2: to happen, but here it is. I'm a Tracy Anderson

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Speaker 2: workout person. Now what do you like about it?

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Speaker 3: It's just really weird. She's really weird.

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Speaker 2: Also, I just saw at the checkout at the grocery store.

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Speaker 2: She has an entire magazine like Oprah called like Tracy

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Speaker 2: and yes.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, she's building an empire, that Tracy.

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Speaker 3: She's building an empire.

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Speaker 2: I mean every single page of the magazine has a

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Speaker 2: picture of.

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Speaker 3: Her in it.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's.

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Speaker 3: Like Oprah Times.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know anything about this person. I have

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Speaker 1: to see what she looks like. Now, Okay, Tracy Anderson

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Speaker 1: is a white lady who is skinny and has abs. Okay, blonde, yep,

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Speaker 1: fake lips. All right, carry on, you nailed her.

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Speaker 3: It's Tracy Anderson. Whoo and uh yeah. Now I'm just

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Speaker 3: kind of like, where have you been all my life.

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Speaker 2: Tracy Anderson considered buying the magazine the other day. That's

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Speaker 2: insane not doing that. But it's just happening. My mind

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Speaker 2: is being taken over. And she does these speeches at

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Speaker 2: the end of her class.

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Speaker 3: They make no sense. She did a two minute speech.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: But what was she talking about?

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Speaker 2: Is this helicopter flying over it's probably Tracy.

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Speaker 3: It's probably Tracy landing on my house right now. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I think it's gone.

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Speaker 2: But so it's the end of the class and she's like, listen,

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Speaker 2: working out has to come from the inside out. You

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Speaker 2: can't have it come from the outside And you can't

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Speaker 2: just mimic me, because if we do this move and

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Speaker 2: you're doing it from the outside in, then you're gonna

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Speaker 2: fall down. But if you're doing it from the outside out,

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Speaker 2: then you're gonna be in your own body.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, that makes no sense, that doesn't

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Speaker 3: make sense. That's not true.

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Speaker 1: I only work out from the inside in and it

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Speaker 1: works great for me, to be honest, that's so dumb. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like it makes sense from if you're doing yoga, but

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Speaker 1: for just like a workout program, it just didn't.

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Speaker 3: I didn't get it. I rewound.

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Speaker 2: I kept listening because now she is my cult leader,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, makes sense to me, Tracy Anderson, Like,

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Speaker 2: I want to know what you're saying. But then I

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Speaker 2: was just like, but you're saying something so dumb that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: So you kept listening, and now that repetition is planting

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Speaker 1: seeds in your brain that are growing until you are

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Speaker 1: a Tracy Anderson robot. Right, But Tracy Anderson robots hot, Yes,

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Speaker 1: Gwyneth Palchers and Tracy Robot so a right track. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes total sense completely.

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Speaker 3: What about you? What's the cultiest thing to happen to you?

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Speaker 1: I mean this is a terrible one because I was

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Speaker 1: not paying attention at all, but I watched the first

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Speaker 1: episode or maybe two episodes, literally can't remember of nine

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Speaker 1: Perfect Strangers. The new Nicole Kidman as a cult leader

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Speaker 1: show right do you have you seen? Have?

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Speaker 4: Not? No?

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Speaker 3: Sorry? Is that what you were waiting for?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: I haven't.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman plays a new agey wellness cult leader who's

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Speaker 1: hosting a wellness retreat. And these ten stressed out people

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Speaker 1: are all have come from all different kinds of light,

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Speaker 1: And I mean not that many different kinds of life.

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Speaker 1: A bunch of white people are showing up at this

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Speaker 1: place pretty much to destress and listen to what this

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Speaker 1: wise lady has to say. She like has them all

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Speaker 1: lie in coffins in the ground. She is talking a

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Speaker 1: bunch of charismatic nonsense. For me personally, I have seen

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Speaker 1: so many cult movies and shows because aside from this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I also have been working on a future for my

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Speaker 1: entire fucking life that I'm never gonna fish. I'm totally

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Speaker 1: gonna finish it. Of course I'm writing it right now

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Speaker 1: that is inspired by some of my own experiences. So

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Speaker 1: there is a cultleader in it. So me watching it,

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Speaker 1: I'm like a little bit like, yeah, whatever, I've seen

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Speaker 1: this a million times. However, people who have, who are

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit less immersed in the cult material

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Speaker 1: than me, are loving the show. If you guys like

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Speaker 1: cold stuff, you'll probably like it. Nicole Kimmon has an accent,

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Speaker 1: and it actually is like, I mean, I think she

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Speaker 1: does a great job. She totally like captures that kind

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Speaker 1: of character.

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Speaker 3: What kind of accent, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't know, I again barely paying attention. Okay, so her name,

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Speaker 1: her character's name of this on the show. Is Masha

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Speaker 1: Dmitrichenko so made me Russian?

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Speaker 3: Oh no, idea, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But anyway, Melissa McCarthy's in it, and Melissa McCarthy

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Speaker 1: is i think also the executive producer or an executive producer,

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Speaker 1: and she's playing a serious role, which is fun to

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Speaker 1: see her in.

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Speaker 3: And I liked that is she nailing it?

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Speaker 1: She is nailing it right, No, it's great.

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Speaker 3: It's great to.

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Speaker 1: See her stretching her and acting chops. Anyway, so I

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Speaker 1: again barely paying attention. However, I'm pretty sure this is

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Speaker 1: the wrong takeaway from the show. But Danon and I

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Speaker 1: were watching it, shout out to my friend Danin and

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Speaker 1: we were like, we should go to a wellness retreat. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that that seems like a thing that does.

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Speaker 2: Not beakela that you are supposed you are crying.

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Speaker 1: So then I spent forty five minutes googling affordable wellness retreats.

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Speaker 1: Turns out there aren't any, which makes upstle there.

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Speaker 2: Are in Thailand. Did you see any Thailand wellness retreats?

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Speaker 1: I did see some overseas wellness retreats that were affordable, However,

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Speaker 1: inherently to get overseas.

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Speaker 3: It costs a.

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Speaker 1: Fair amount of money anyway, Probably not gonna do that,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds really nice, you know, not just like

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Speaker 1: a really mild like no real leader, but just like

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Speaker 1: some yoga, some meditation, just a chance to unwind distress.

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Speaker 1: As we all know, my anxiety this month has been

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Speaker 1: pretty horrific. So you know, I'm just looking for looking

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Speaker 1: for a chance to get some R and R. But

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do it with Nicole Kidman. All right,

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Speaker 1: that's my story.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you could join a cult that has this as

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Speaker 2: part of the like indoctrination and then leave.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like it's hard to do that, but

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Speaker 1: because once it's working, you're like, well now I have to.

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Speaker 3: Stay, right, But the rest of us would come save you.

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Speaker 1: We would get you, Okay, trust me, listeners. If I

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Speaker 1: joined a cult that was working for my anxiety and

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Speaker 1: it was working so well that I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: leave and I felt like I had to stay, would

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Speaker 1: you all gather in a crowd and come save me?

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Speaker 2: Pull Please send us your answer to that on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: y r.

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Speaker 1: N please dm us. Okay, I'm doing okay, it's fine,

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Speaker 1: doing great. Let's start the interview.

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Speaker 5: Now okay, welcome Christina Bavin.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, thanks for having me, Yes.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for being here. So all right, your story is wow,

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Speaker 1: incredibly harrowing. You know, as I think you saw. We've

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Speaker 1: had someone who was in the Children of God on

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Speaker 1: the show, but she was only in when she was younger,

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Speaker 1: and your experience is just like shocking. So can you

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Speaker 1: start us at the beginning and tell us just like

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Speaker 1: how did you end up in the group? Like how

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Speaker 1: did your parents end up in it? What was the situation?

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Speaker 4: So the Children of God was a fundamentalist type of

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Speaker 4: Christian group that started in nineteen sixty nine by David Berg.

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Speaker 4: He was a failed Christian minister. He was studying communism

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Speaker 4: and socialism in college and he decided to target the

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Speaker 4: youth of that time, and that was there was a

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Speaker 4: lot of turmoil going on in the world, and he

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Speaker 4: found the youngsters very open to a sort of rebellious philosophy.

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Speaker 4: And most of our parents joined during that time. And

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Speaker 4: it was a very puritanical, very pure. It was a

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Speaker 4: rejection of capitalism, a rejection of traditional Christianity in a

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Speaker 4: more pure way. It wasn't looked at like, oh, we're

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Speaker 4: going to be this crazy sex cult. It was we're

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Speaker 4: going to be a pure or original Christian type of

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Speaker 4: group that we're gonna be party.

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Speaker 3: I mean, sounds good so far and fury right. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Actually they used music and dancing and a lot of

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Speaker 4: love bombing, constant happiness and smiles that never ended. A

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Speaker 4: lot of community, just a lot of beautiful young people

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Speaker 4: in long hippie skirts, singing and dancing on the beaches.

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Speaker 4: They would pass out peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and

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Speaker 4: it was just, you know, they were right for the

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Speaker 4: picking during that time. So my mom, she had already

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Speaker 4: given birth to me and my older brother, and it

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Speaker 4: looked like a beautiful world to raise her children in,

224
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Speaker 4: and so she jumped in with both feet and both kids.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and your mom was she married, She was.

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Speaker 4: At the time, or was just getting a divorce at

227
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Speaker 4: the time, and so she joined the cult. And the

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Speaker 4: cult automatically like took us and hit us and eventually

229
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Speaker 4: sent us overseas. They did an arranged marriage with my

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Speaker 4: mom with somebody that she had met.

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Speaker 3: Whoa, whoa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how long did that take to get her into

233
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Speaker 1: a new marriage.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure of the details. You know, that's the story.

235
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Speaker 4: I hope one day my mom will tell. But yeah,

236
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Speaker 4: there was a lot of back and forth of kidnapping us,

237
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Speaker 4: back and forth and the court, but the cult ended

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Speaker 4: up winning.

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Speaker 1: And really, yeah, it was the cult versus your dad

240
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Speaker 1: fighting for custody or.

241
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Speaker 4: My dad and my grandparents. Yeah, that's very common in

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Speaker 4: destructive groups. One person will want to join and the

243
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 4: other won't, and then the cult comes along with this

244
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Speaker 4: big community and convinces them we're going to take care

245
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Speaker 4: of you and your kids, and everybody outside of the

246
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Speaker 4: cult is considered bad, so we're going to rescue you

247
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Speaker 4: from this bad man who's trying to raise your children

248
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Speaker 4: in America, which is horrible. So that's kind of where

249
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Speaker 4: it all started, and we were kind of shuttled around.

250
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Speaker 4: I think it was nineteen seventy two. The founder wrote

251
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Speaker 4: a letter. He communicated to all of his followers through letters,

252
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Speaker 4: and he had leadership that he mandated these letters to

253
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Speaker 4: and they supervised and they would go around visiting different

254
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Speaker 4: communes and making sure everybody was fulfilling the letters and

255
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 4: doing what they were supposed to do. It was very

256
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 4: much a pyramid scheme or a pyramid of leadership with

257
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Speaker 4: most of us being on the bottom. So during nineteen

258
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Speaker 4: seventy two he said, everybody needs to leave America. We

259
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Speaker 4: need to all go overseas, and everybody started leaving. It

260
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Speaker 4: was called the Great Escape. And once he got everybody overseas,

261
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Speaker 4: that's when his doctrines started to change from a more

262
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Speaker 4: traditional Christian philosophy to where he started incorporating his own

263
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 4: insidious ideas, especially on sex. So nineteen seventy three he

264
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 4: started putting out the first sexual letters. It kind of

265
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,640
Speaker 4: came in like batches. Nineteen seventy two he did One Wife,

266
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Speaker 4: and what that philosophy was, it basically was disbanding of

267
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Speaker 4: the nuclear families. So in other word, oh no, there

268
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,480
Speaker 4: is no traditional husband and wife, mother and father. We

269
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,440
Speaker 4: are all one family. It was very interesting though that

270
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 4: he put one wife as the title. That's kind of

271
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Speaker 4: a shocking statement, but then as you read it, it's

272
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 4: just like, oh, we're one family. We can all be

273
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Speaker 4: mothers and fathers, we're all married to each other. Well,

274
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Speaker 4: one year later he did I think it was the

275
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 4: law of Love where he said, okay, since we're all

276
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Speaker 4: one wife now, we should also be sharing sexually with

277
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Speaker 4: each other. You know, we're sharing everything else. He started

278
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Speaker 4: up kind of a swinger culture, and then a year

279
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Speaker 4: after that he instated and started talking about doing flirty fishing,

280
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Speaker 4: which was a form of prostitution. So it was kind

281
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 4: of a slow gradual thing. But before he started any

282
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Speaker 4: of that, he took everybody away from their families, away

283
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Speaker 4: from their country. We were already all on the run.

284
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Speaker 4: I remember going from country to country fleeing authorities. I

285
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Speaker 4: remember being kicked out of Jamaica that we went to

286
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,920
Speaker 4: Puerto Rico. The government there they kicked us out because

287
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 4: they said we were Cia.

288
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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

289
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So then we ran to Puerto Rico, and we

290
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 4: were just always running from the law, running from any

291
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Speaker 4: form of authority because we were living outside of that system.

292
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Speaker 3: I'm just thinking, you know, it's called the Great Escape.

293
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Speaker 2: So I'm assuming you guys are feeling under a lot

294
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Speaker 2: of stress. And I remember reading in an article you

295
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Speaker 2: speaking about how your bedtime stories were like apocalyptic nightmare,

296
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 2: the world's about to end. So is that what you're

297
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,640
Speaker 2: running from, Like this must be incredibly stressful.

298
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, we believed that the end of the world was

299
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Speaker 4: coming upon us soon. We believed that America was going

300
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 4: to be destroyed. The Antichrist was going to seize power

301
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 4: and we were all going to be martyrs. But we

302
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 4: had a mission to accomplish before that day came, and

303
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 4: so we did need to escape and do as much

304
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 4: we called it witnessing and as much prostolytizing as we

305
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 4: could to ensure that as many people on earth could

306
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 4: have the chance to be saved before the end of

307
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 4: the world. So we were running from a good many

308
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 4: things on every side.

309
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you actually running from the law in the

310
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 1: United States?

311
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 4: Right? David Berg officially was the one that the authorities

312
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 4: were targeting in the early seventies. I believe that Interpool

313
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 4: ended up putting out out something looking for him. There

314
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 4: was like a reward and stuff looking for him. But

315
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 4: because none of the children were being schooled in a

316
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,359
Speaker 4: traditional way, because hundreds of people would be living in

317
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 4: one house, because we would be invading churches or standing

318
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 4: on the street corners, the law was never on our side.

319
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Speaker 4: So in our eyes, we were being persecuted. And everything

320
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 4: that he was saying kind of matched up with how

321
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,159
Speaker 4: people were treating us. So in America, you know, you

322
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:34,960
Speaker 4: don't get away with a lot of those things. The

323
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 4: way that we were able to in other countries. In

324
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,920
Speaker 4: other countries they were like, oh, crazy foreigners, these crazy Americans,

325
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,080
Speaker 4: always doing what they want, you know. Yeah, so it

326
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 4: was a very very smart move. There's not only a

327
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,159
Speaker 4: statute of limitations, there's a limitation of borders, and not

328
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 4: every country has extradition laws. Man, this was the largest

329
00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 4: conspiracy with children that was successful in training the children

330
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 4: to cover up abuse and what was done. We were

331
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Speaker 4: a well trained army. I mean, I don't doubt that

332
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 4: he believed that he was some kind of messiah and

333
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 4: that he believed what he was saying. But we know

334
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 4: that humans can convince themselves, right, But the adults and

335
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,439
Speaker 4: especially the leadership, they knew what was happening. It was

336
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 4: interesting because in nineteen seventy eight, when the Jonestown massacre happened,

337
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,639
Speaker 4: the founder actually disbanded the cult at that time, like

338
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,280
Speaker 4: after that happened and changed the name. So the cult

339
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 4: went from the Children of God to the Family of Love,

340
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,479
Speaker 4: to the Family then to the Family International.

341
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Speaker 1: Which is what they are now.

342
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 4: Yes, so every time that some kind of major thing

343
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 4: happened where it started looking bad for the group, the

344
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 4: name would.

345
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Speaker 1: Change, right, classic move, yes, so classic unreal you left

346
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: the United States, and so what was your trajectory? Where

347
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 1: were all the places you lived?

348
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 4: So we went to Jamaica, then Puerto Rico, then we

349
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 4: went to Canada. We drove through the US. I don't

350
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 4: know how long that took, but we drove through the

351
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 4: US to Mexico and back up to California. And we left.

352
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 4: From California. We lived in Hawaii, Guam, Saipan, Japan, the Philippines. Wow,

353
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 4: move back around again.

354
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,119
Speaker 3: Who's paying? Like, how do you guys get the money

355
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 3: to do all of this?

356
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 4: Yes, follow the money. That's a very important aspect of

357
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 4: the cult that a lot of people don't talk about.

358
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 4: I find that everybody is so fascinated with the sexual

359
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 4: aspects that we forget some of the most important part

360
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 4: of this besides the sexual abuse. It was like nineteen

361
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 4: seventy four was when he first started talking about blerty fishing.

362
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,640
Speaker 4: So basically all the women in the cult became prostitutes.

363
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,199
Speaker 4: You know, some of them fought against it. It was

364
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 4: definitely not something that any of the women joined to do.

365
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 4: Nobody was allowed to work outside of the cult. It

366
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 4: was against the rules. If you took a job, you

367
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 4: were automatically excommunicated, rejected, and you were going to die

368
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 4: a horrible, fiery death and possibly through children. So like

369
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 4: there was no way to make money. So David Berg

370
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 4: came up with this new mission that the ultimate form

371
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 4: of love was sex and that was the thing that, Oh,

372
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 4: we can minister to people outside by giving them sex,

373
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 4: and then they in turn can give us money. They

374
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 4: would do it on their own, they would be part

375
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 4: of escort services, and all of us little girls, we

376
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 4: all watched the women put the makeup on and put

377
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 4: the perfume on, which was something that was not allowed

378
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 4: in the group unless you were actually going to be

379
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 4: a prostitute. So we would watch that and that's what

380
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 4: we all kind of aspire to be, like, oh, we'll

381
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 4: get to go get dressed up. And that was if

382
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,479
Speaker 4: we lived long enough, then we could do that. Chances

383
00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 4: were we knew we were.

384
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,880
Speaker 1: Going to die because the apocalypse is coming right, yeah,

385
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 1: because Jesus was coming back right like the world was

386
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 1: about to end.

387
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my god. But if something happening, you did it,

388
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 4: then that was our only future. Like that's what women

389
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 4: were here to do. So that went on for twenty one.

390
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: How old were you when you're observing all of this.

391
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 4: So that was my whole time growing up because I

392
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 4: was born in nineteen seventy four, so it was a

393
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 4: very strange way of growing up. And that went all

394
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 4: the way up into the eighties, and I want to

395
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 4: say that it was like maybe eighty seven. Yeah, it

396
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 4: was almost in the nineties when they said no more

397
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 4: and they decided not to do FFing anymore, which was

398
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 4: flirty fishing unless you already had a John that was

399
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,479
Speaker 4: already an established john. They say, oh, we stopped it

400
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty seven, But the thing is it didn't stop.

401
00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 4: They just stopped gathering new john.

402
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: So this is like an official declaration from the top

403
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: that you are gonna have flirtyfish. You're going to go

404
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: out there, You're going to pull in then and get

405
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 1: their money. How was this information disseminated?

406
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 4: So Father David wrote letters and the letters were printed

407
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 4: ups and they came in the mail, and then he

408
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,959
Speaker 4: had leadership that would come around and inspect and they

409
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 4: would travel and make sure that you were doing what

410
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 4: you were supposed to be doing. So it was interesting

411
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 4: because during the disbandment that happened after the Jonestown, part

412
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 4: of that was kind of a reorganization process. There were

413
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 4: a lot of people that were not happy with the

414
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 4: flirty fishing and the things that were going on. So

415
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 4: basically he kind of disbanded and then rebanded. So when

416
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 4: you rebanded back with the group, you kind of had

417
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 4: to agree to these terms. So that was your trying

418
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 4: to figure it out if you weren't all on board

419
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 4: with all of his doctrine, right, So that was going

420
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 4: on for a while. But also at the same time,

421
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 4: because it's not enough for a few women to you know,

422
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 4: bring it in money, we also had to have more

423
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 4: money just to have houses and to be able to

424
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 4: go out. So the children also were the bread winners.

425
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 4: And so during the day we would go out and

426
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 4: we would sing on the street corners, we would pass

427
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 4: out tracks. We would beg for money and food, and

428
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 4: so that was the two forms of income. The men

429
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,479
Speaker 4: would drive the women around and drive the children around,

430
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 4: and that's how it worked. The women and children were

431
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 4: the breadwinners.

432
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: And what were the men doing all day?

433
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 4: They were driving us around.

434
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: That's it.

435
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: They were just like supporting the sex trafficking. Okay, cool.

436
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 4: They helped, you know, count the money, and they played

437
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 4: the guitar and wow, I mean there's still work to

438
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 4: be done. They weren't laying around eating bonbonds. They were busy.

439
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 4: Remember there were so many children, so each woman had

440
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 4: like eight to twelve children. Oh my god, you have

441
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 4: one man and one woman for that many children. So

442
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 4: the men were driving a lot of people around.

443
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really interesting. It's like a reverse polygamy situation

444
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: where the men are the ones taking care of all

445
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: the children.

446
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 4: Well, no, the men didn't take care of the children either,

447
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 4: so they didn't.

448
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Okay, sounds like a great deal for the women.

449
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And then the men were rewarded at night

450
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 4: by they had sharing schedules, so all the women and

451
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 4: older children. Older kids would also be put on these

452
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 4: sharing schedules, and so they would every night, the leadership

453
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 4: would decide, Okay, now you're going to sleep with so

454
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 4: and so, and you're going to sleep with so and

455
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 4: so my we think is an appropriate age. Then you know,

456
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 4: this man's going to teach you how to have sex

457
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: or this woman.

458
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh usually twelve, right, it was twelve the normal.

459
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 4: That's what a lot of it was. Now. Younger kids

460
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: also did experience that as well, but usually with like

461
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 4: the sharing schedules. It was like older children to younger teenagers.

462
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: Sharing schedules is such a like benign term for such

463
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: a horrific thing that it's actually referring to. That's like,

464
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: it's just so creepy.

465
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: But it was seen in the world as a beautiful

466
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 4: form of self sacrifice and a beautiful way of showing love,

467
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 4: and we were taught that it was a beautiful, wonderful thing.

468
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 4: We were told that ALcom did not like it and

469
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 4: that it was considered a bad thing, but it was

470
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: just quite normal for us. Most of us did not

471
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 4: like it, though, but since it was taught as also

472
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 4: a sacrifice, it kind of made sense. Like h So

473
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: it was kind of confusing because you were like, ooh,

474
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 4: I'm not into right, But they say it's good.

475
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: But it's right that I'm not into this because I'm sacrificing.

476
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 4: You grow up thinking something's wrong with you because everybody

477
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 4: around you is endorsing it and you're not allowed to

478
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 4: talk about it, so you like, Okay, I don't like it,

479
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 4: but it's not abuse. It's just I'm a weirdo.

480
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: Right right.

481
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 4: We did a lot of practicing and training to not

482
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 4: tell outsiders the truth. That was like our routine was

483
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 4: we would do mock court cases. We would do mock

484
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 4: raids where adults would pretend to be a fool and

485
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: the children to answer correctly, behave correctly, never show signs

486
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 4: of stress, only shows signs of happiness. And that was

487
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 4: part of our everyday life. So when the world kind

488
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 4: of started taking notice of what was happening, communes were

489
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: raided around the world and children were taking away. And

490
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 4: when they did that and they were questioning the children,

491
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 4: they found all the children very happy and very stress

492
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 4: free and very in control of what they were saying.

493
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 4: The children knew exactly what to say, so they were like, oh, like,

494
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 4: there's nothing bad going on despite all the literature which

495
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: was very obviously promoting abuse.

496
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: Right, we talked about how flirty fishing was implemented, but

497
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: can you talk about how he actually dictated that child

498
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: abuse was good and the thing to do.

499
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: So David Berg was our voice of God for us.

500
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 4: Everything that he said was supposed to be followed. We

501
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 4: all tried to copy his behavior and be more like him.

502
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 4: So he started out, like I said, he started out

503
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: with the one wife, and then in these letters he

504
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 4: was slowly let out more and more about his own

505
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 4: life and how he was abused as a child and

506
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 4: he enjoyed it. He felt a lot of shame around that,

507
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 4: and his mother shamed him a lot when she caught

508
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 4: him masturbating and things like that. So he would share

509
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: these things and then share his opinions, and then he

510
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 4: would have like a revelation, you know. So he would

511
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 4: be kind of prepping you and saying these things in

512
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 4: his letters, and then he would come out, oh, well,

513
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 4: here we should all be one wife, and then a

514
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: little more prepping over the next year, and then oh, well,

515
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 4: now I just came up with this thing called the

516
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 4: law of love, which means anything that is done in

517
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 4: love is good and pure. And then he would prep

518
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 4: you a little more and then say, you know what,

519
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 4: it's not a bad thing for children to have sex.

520
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 4: You were already so prepped by that time, and it

521
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: just slowly escalated, like it's that one little saying of

522
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: you put a frog in hot water and it's going

523
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 4: to jump out. Yeah, But if you put a frog

524
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 4: in cold water and slowly turn up the heat, the

525
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 4: frog is going to boil, but never jump out because

526
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 4: it doesn't realize what is happening, absolutely, and so that's

527
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: what was happening for sure to our parents. And then

528
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: because we were one wife and all of the children

529
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 4: were cared for by different people. And actually, once you

530
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 4: got to be a certain age, they would try to

531
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: send you to a different commune, and so you would

532
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 4: live away from your parents with other adults, so you

533
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 4: weren't seeing necessarily these things being done to you. Some

534
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 4: parents did, but others had no idea because you know,

535
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 4: they weren't doing it to their kid. They weren't on

536
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: the sering schedule with their own kid. It was another commune.

537
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 4: One thing that I really want to emphasize is that

538
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: while this was a sex cult, the sex was only

539
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 4: a fraction of what we experienced. It's the part that

540
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 4: everybody wants to talk about and that everybody is fascinated with.

541
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 4: But the mind control and the thought reform programs that

542
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: we had to go through were incredibly difficult. You know,

543
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 4: we were not given an education when we started to rebel.

544
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: They made camps that they put us into that were

545
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: just full of mind control tactics and public beatings. A

546
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: lot of fear was installed in us. It was very,

547
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 4: very difficult, and during those times. It was not about

548
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 4: sexual abuse. So this this was a group about control,

549
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: and this was one of the most successful groups when

550
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 4: it comes to having a beautiful storefront, having horrible things

551
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 4: going on behind, and then getting away with it. So

552
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 4: what's happening now is I'm only one of many that

553
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 4: are coming out Now, we are coming out and saying Okay,

554
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: no matter what we said when we were children, this

555
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 4: actually happened. But it took me ten years after leaving

556
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 4: the cult to even admit to myself that it was abuse.

557
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: It took me a long long time. I was just

558
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: telling myself I didn't like it, I don't enjoy this lifestyle.

559
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 4: It must not be for me, right, But it took

560
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 4: long and then it took me another ten years or

561
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 4: so before I felt I could share it publicly.

562
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: Wow, so you are sent to a camp? Does that

563
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: mean that you had been rebellious? Were you rebelling against

564
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: the lifestyle? Like what was happening that led them to

565
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: send you to this place?

566
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: So really, I think all of us kind of were.

567
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 4: You know, there were a couple kids that it kind

568
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 4: of started out with where maybe they stole some thing

569
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 4: or they had a rebellious attitude, but really like if

570
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 4: you got caught singing an outsider song that you heard somewhere,

571
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: if they caught you with a book, or they caught

572
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: you with lipstick, you know, if they caught you with anything,

573
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 4: if your attitude just wasn't right. So basically most of

574
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: us went through one of these camps, and there were

575
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 4: different levels of camps. The initial ones were a very

576
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 4: clever way of starting the trafficking of us. So they said,

577
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: we're sending all of the kids that are twelve and

578
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 4: up to this camp, and they did, I think it

579
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 4: was twelve camps around the world. So all these kids

580
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 4: went to this camp. It was like a month or

581
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: two long. It was basically heavy, heavy indoctrination. It was

582
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 4: all of Robert Lipton's eight thought reform criterion, you know,

583
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: that they used on us. They didn't use a lot

584
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 4: of critical abuse or sexual abuse, but it was just

585
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: all the manipulation and the mind control. So then when

586
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: that camp was over, instead of sending us back to

587
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 4: our parents, they then dispersed us around the world and

588
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 4: they just trafficked us from commune to commune as often

589
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: as they could. They just kept us moving. We didn't

590
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 4: know where our parents were. They didn't know where we were.

591
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: You know, if you got a letter, you were lucky.

592
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 4: But they never got to send the letter to the home.

593
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 4: They would send it to World Services, and the World

594
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 4: Services would send it to us. Oh where I never

595
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: heard from my family.

596
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples of some of the

597
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: tactics that they would use that fall under those eight criteria?

598
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 4: Okay, so well, the first one, which I think is

599
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: the most important, is the miliu control, which is the

600
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 4: French word for you know, your surroundings. They control everything

601
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 4: that comes in and out. Everything around you is controlled,

602
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: and then it goes to all the information that comes

603
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 4: into your head is controlled, and then your thoughts are controlled.

604
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 4: So it starts with no leaving compounds, nobody coming in,

605
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 4: no books coming into the compound, no conversations that are

606
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 4: not repeating the prophet's words. And then you started tattling

607
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 4: on yourself and your thoughts and your mind. You weren't

608
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: allowed to think. It was constant memorization, constant quoting of

609
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: the scripture. You never went anywhere alone. You did not

610
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: go to the restroom alone. You showered together. There was

611
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: no alone time. You didn't go into the closet alone.

612
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: Being alone was a form of punishment, so they would

613
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: put you in isolation and solidary confinement for months. Sometimes,

614
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, you would put on restriction with signs

615
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 4: on you or duct tape on your mouth saying I'm

616
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 4: not allowed to speak to anybody.

617
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

618
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 4: So a lot of those things, maybe not the silence restriction,

619
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 4: but the milieu control was also something that they used

620
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 4: on our parents as well. They didn't go anywhere by themselves,

621
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 4: at least compared to most people. You know, they always

622
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 4: had somebody with them. I'm guessing when they were flirty

623
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 4: fishing that they got to be alone, but with an outsider.

624
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 4: But even that, like you had to write reports every night,

625
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: we all wrote a report. We reported on ourselves, We

626
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 4: reported on other people, We reported on our thoughts, We

627
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 4: were reported on conversations. It was down to we reported

628
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 4: on how we used the bathroom.

629
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: Whoa And would people tell on each other if they

630
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: saw like any little.

631
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 4: Thing, Yeah, yeah they did. I remember I got in

632
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: trouble a few times because of things that crept out

633
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 4: of my mouth, and I would try to tattle on

634
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: other people, but not tattle on people, So I would

635
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 4: talk about other people, but not tell on them. Usually

636
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 4: I would be like telling on myself, so I would

637
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 4: be combining the two. I would be like, oh, I

638
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: was talking to Johnny today and I started daydreaming about

639
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 4: spending time with him. So then I'm like tattling on

640
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 4: him because I'm mentioning his name, but I'm really tattling

641
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: on myself. But then it's nothing too horrible, so they

642
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 4: just go, oh, make sure you don't get too attached

643
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 4: to Johnny, or we'll make sure not to put you

644
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 4: on shifts together. Because they did not allow intimate relationships,

645
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 4: so you couldn't fall in love with somebody. You couldn't

646
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: have a friendship because you loved everybody, so if you

647
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 4: got too close to somebody, they would separate you. Wow,

648
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 4: so you really kept it on the down. That was real.

649
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 4: But it was a great way to tattle on yourself.

650
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: And since we were moved from commune to commune, you

651
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 4: could use the same tactics on different leaders. So I

652
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 4: would find a tactic that would work, and then I

653
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 4: would use that on every leader in every commune to

654
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 4: kind of stay on the download.

655
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: Ahh yeah, like being kind of vague about what you

656
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: were feeling or like, what what did that look like?

657
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 4: No, Like I said, I enjoyed somebody's company today more

658
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 4: than other people's.

659
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: Uh huh, okay, okay, if you.

660
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 4: Confess something like a doubt, then they would do an

661
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 4: extracism on you in public humiliation. So I was sort

662
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 4: of a believer, but sort of not with our lifestyle.

663
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: I believe that we could not survive on the outside world.

664
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: I believe we needed each other. I believe I needed

665
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 4: the cult. I wasn't totally convinced about the end of

666
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 4: the world. I was like, oh, yeah, I guess it's possible.

667
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 4: I don't know. But then I also just was very

668
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 4: observant of the adult's behavior and of hypocrisy, and I

669
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 4: think I really did believe in God because I was like,

670
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 4: if God is real and he knows, I'm doubting in

671
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 4: my head. And then Sally over there just got in

672
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 4: trouble when I know she believes more than me. I

673
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 4: was like, God really is powerful. He's not gonna fall

674
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 4: for these tricks. And I was like, okay, so he

675
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 4: obviously doesn't really care as much as they care. So

676
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 4: I kind of just like, I don't know if that's

677
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 4: cognitive dissidence. But it was making sense in my mind.

678
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: That's I feel like, that's so observant. Yeah, that's actually

679
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: so smart to even be able to make that observation.

680
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: I feel like when I would witness hypocrisy, I just

681
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: would ignore it. As a kid. I wouldn't like compare

682
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: God being omniscient to like the behavior of adults necessarily,

683
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: you know.

684
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, in our call, the stakes were so very high.

685
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 4: You watched other people be tormented and you watched horrible

686
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 4: things happen to them, and so it was kind of

687
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 4: a stink or swim. So I don't know that I

688
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 4: was more observant or more smart than anybody else. I

689
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 4: just had a will to survive and I just was like, Okay,

690
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 4: I gotta somehow make it. And I was watching people

691
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: be broken around me, and I was like, I don't

692
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 4: want to be broken, and eventually they did break me.

693
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 4: And there's months that I can't remember after that, where

694
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 4: really I just lost memory. Yeah. We went to a

695
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 4: huge camp in the Philippines and it was called the

696
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: Jumbo because obviously it was mass and the founder actually

697
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 4: lived nearby. We didn't know that, but his ambassadors would

698
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 4: come and inspect and the closer you got to the top,

699
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 4: the worst things were. The closer that you got to burg,

700
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 4: the more control, the more sexual abuse, everything was more

701
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 4: I don't know what you call it insidious. The closer

702
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 4: you got to the top, the less freedom you had.

703
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: Did you ever meet him?

704
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 4: No? I never did, and I never had a desire to.

705
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 4: So I was a weirdo in that way. I was

706
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 4: never into him. I always had the sick feeling in

707
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 4: my stomach when people would get like invited to go

708
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 4: stay at his house. I was always like oooh for them, like,

709
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 4: oh no, But I never said that because that was

710
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 4: like the worst thing you could say, right. I was

711
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 4: kind of never into that. That was kind of a

712
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 4: bad scene, you know. I loved being able to go

713
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: bag on the streets. I didn't like the begging part,

714
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 4: but I'd love the opportunity for something to happen, for

715
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 4: me to get a glimpse of a television or I

716
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 4: would pages of magazines out and like go sneak into

717
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: the bathroom and read them and then I would flush

718
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 4: them down the toilet. So wow. I was always looking

719
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 4: for some kind of taste of the outside world. I

720
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 4: was so curious. I was thirsty for worldliness.

721
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you taught yourself how to read?

722
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

723
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 4: Yeah? So, oh, I don't know if it's me, but

724
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 4: being one of the older kids, there was a very

725
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 4: de emphasis on education, and the founder said nobody needs

726
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 4: anything more than a sixth grade education. So it wasn't

727
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 4: like forbidden to educate your kids. But because our mothers

728
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 4: were having so many babies, they were worked to death,

729
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: and then we older kids were having to take care

730
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 4: of all the babies and go out on the streets

731
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 4: and beg for money, like we had to do all

732
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 4: of that and then try to fit some schooling in.

733
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 4: So what happened was like if it was your day

734
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 4: to be with the kids. And every family was a

735
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 4: little different. So there were some family who were like, okay,

736
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 4: well we're gonna make sure all of our kids have

737
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 4: a sixth grade education. It's just my family didn't happen

738
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 4: to and a lot of others didn't. But there is diversity,

739
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: even in the cold.

740
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

741
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 4: So you were teaching the younger children, and we would

742
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 4: try to teach the younger children the alphabet and the

743
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 4: phonics and stuff. So I knew my alphabet, and I

744
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 4: knew my phonics and I was around ten, and my

745
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 4: stepdad was like, we figured out I didn't know how

746
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 4: to read. And he was like, well, you have to

747
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 4: read because you got to read the word of God.

748
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: And so he plopped down the Bible and he was like,

749
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 4: you have till tomorrow to read me something from the Bible. WHOA.

750
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 4: I was like, oh shit, but I knew, I knew

751
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 4: what I needed. So I just like, I don't remember

752
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 4: how late I stayed up, but I kind of took

753
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 4: my phonetics and I found some verses that I had

754
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 4: memorized because I knew they were in you know, Ephesians

755
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: or you know First John R. And I found those

756
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: and then I took the phonics and just the sounds

757
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 4: and kind of worked out the concept and then practice

758
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 4: on a couple other verses and I was like, oh okay,

759
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 4: so wow. Wasn't never really a strong reader, but now

760
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 4: I am. I love to read. I read a lot.

761
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: That's awesome but so cool.

762
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: How did you feel about your stepdad? What was your

763
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 1: relationship like with him?

764
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 4: Ooh, that is a tough question. Good and bad. I

765
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 4: saw him as my keeper who I was supposed to

766
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 4: work for, and if I kept him happy and brought

767
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 4: enough money home. Then he was happy and not stressed.

768
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 4: So we did not have a close relationship. He joined

769
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 4: the cult because he had a difficult life, and that

770
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 4: bled over into you know, everything he did. I do

771
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 4: have one good memory. He taught me how to sing

772
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 4: some Elvis songs, which was absolutely forbidden in the cult.

773
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 4: It started in Saipan, and then I ended up spending

774
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 4: a little time with them in Japan. And he would

775
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 4: take me out to bars at night. And I was

776
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 4: very young to be singing in bars, but we would

777
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 4: go and sing in bars and bring the money home.

778
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 4: So I would work all day long and then go

779
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 4: sing at night in the bars and bring the money home.

780
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 4: A lot of work, a lot of work for us.

781
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: I mean, the trauma is just it's on every side.

782
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: It's just so much. I also think I read that

783
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: you couldn't smile. The opposite if oh, you had to smile.

784
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 2: You had to smile constantly.

785
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 4: There was a never ending happiness that you needed to exude,

786
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 4: which was why it was so easy to fool outsiders,

787
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 4: because you could look pleasant and happy and smile all

788
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 4: the time. So getting out into the real world, I

789
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 4: found it so complex. People were so complex out here.

790
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 4: There wasn't just happiness and then anger and fear. People

791
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 4: had likes and dislikes. People had flavors of ice cream

792
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 4: that they liked. People had feelings of disapproval, they had

793
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 4: feelings of romance, they had feelings of discontent towards their jobs.

794
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 4: There just was so much that I just had never

795
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 4: experienced or never had a word for. Our language was

796
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 4: very limited because you were either happy or you were bad.

797
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 4: You know. There was no undepressed, There was no depression.

798
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 4: You know, there was no elation either. There were only

799
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 4: certain times when we would like chant together, which again

800
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 4: all cults have some form of chanting. M h. It's

801
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: very interesting. I guess not all, but it is a

802
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: very common thing. So you could be elated in that

803
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 4: moment when you were getting high on lack of oxygen

804
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 4: because you were chanting so heavily. But laughter and joking,

805
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 4: any kind of silliness was absolutely not allowed, so you

806
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 4: just had to be smiling and pleasant.

807
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: So maybe it was laughter that would get your mouth

808
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: tape shut.

809
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, okay, laughter, laughter, got it? Got it?

810
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: So how does that work with the love bombing? Because

811
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: when I imagine love bombing, I imagine like giggly hippies dancing

812
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: around and telling you how great you are, Like, how

813
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: does that actually work?

814
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 4: That was something that continued all throughout my life. You

815
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 4: would do it hardcore with outsiders that you were trying

816
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 4: to bring in. You know, you would hug them, You

817
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 4: would tell them you love them. You were taught to

818
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 4: try to touch them as much as possible, any excuse

819
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 4: you got to touch, hug them, smile at them, tell

820
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 4: them you love them. We also did that with each other,

821
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 4: so if you visited another commune or came into another commune,

822
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: everybody would hug you and smile. And we were so

823
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 4: authentic in that, and I really do believe it's because

824
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 4: we needed each other. We thought we were alone in

825
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 4: the world and everybody was out to get us. So

826
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: you were just like, I love you. You know, you

827
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 4: were authentic in that. You would also do it after

828
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 4: every punishment. So if you were punished, we would do

829
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 4: like public humiliations where the person would be, you know,

830
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 4: in the middle of the room and we would all

831
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 4: be praying against their evil spirits, against their will, against

832
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 4: their pride. And when it was over and the tears

833
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 4: were falling and you could tell they were yielded or

834
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 4: we were just all exhausted. Then the hugging would come.

835
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 4: Everybody would rush that person and hug them. In abusive relationships,

836
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 4: it's called like punishment reward. You really get like these

837
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 4: endorphin rushes and these dopamine rushes. You know, you get

838
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 4: brought way down and then you get pulled back up again,

839
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 4: and you can kind of get addicted to these highs

840
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 4: and lows.

841
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 3: Right of course.

842
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and what extreme lows that I

843
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: bet The highs after that just felt so high. I

844
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: mean it's just like, yeah, yeah, such extreme manipulation.

845
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, Okay.

846
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: We will continue that next week in part two. Leaving

847
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: it there for now, Megan, So, I believe we've already

848
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: discussed whether or not you joined the Children of God,

849
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 1: and the answer to my memory was a resounding no. Yes,

850
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: but that's only because of what we know to be

851
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: true about it. I would imagine. So, I guess what

852
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: I want to know is, do you imagine yourself to

853
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: be vulnerable to love bombing?

854
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 3: Yes?

855
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 2: Extremely, because I love love and I love to be

856
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: showered in it, So extremely vulnerable.

857
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 3: Yes.

858
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: So if some girls come up to you at a

859
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: party and they're like, you look amazing, and they're like,

860
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: we know this great group that you should join because

861
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: you're just so amazing.

862
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

863
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: Is this how love bombing works? And then you go

864
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: to the thing and they're like showering you with attention

865
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: and telling you how much they want to see you

866
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: come again and how special you are. You'd be like, yeah, sick,

867
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna come back.

868
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess.

869
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: I guess it depends on what they were teaching at

870
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: the thing, but most likely if it was innocuous enough, sure.

871
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: They're just like chanting or singing or doing yoga.

872
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah right, I wish this, Yeah, yeah, I would love that.

873
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,479
Speaker 2: And I can totally see how her mom would get

874
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: sucked into something like this, like it so easily.

875
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean too. One thing that I thought was

876
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: interesting was that it seemed like they were sort of

877
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: initially presenting themselves as like an antidote rebelling against the mainstream,

878
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: because they were promoting like communism and socialism, you know,

879
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: which is anti capitalist and whatever. But then the extreme

880
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: Christian stuff feels like it contradictory to that to me,

881
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: is it not?

882
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, really, Yeah, it's so it's so strange.

883
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: I don't know how they laid that out in a

884
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: way that made sense for anybody, but it's it's a

885
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: very strange compilation of different things over there.

886
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: I could totally see that actually working now in this climate.

887
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously if people didn't have all the information

888
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: about the group, because there are strong, you know, anti

889
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: capitalist feelings happening right now, and I could totally see

890
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: there being some kind of like political leaning, you know,

891
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: socialism promoting group, but that also appeals to our like

892
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: roots are like childhood roots because so many of us

893
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: grew up conservative or grew up Christian right, so it's

894
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: like kind of marrying those it's like.

895
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, yeah, super smart. Yeah.

896
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: Also, I will say something that my boyfriend, Oh, I

897
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: have a boyfriend. Now, you guys, I have boyfriend. Hello,

898
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: he's so cute. Something my very smart, funny, sexy boyfriend

899
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: has brought to my attention, I guess is just like

900
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: how Christianity like actually, you know, for what it is

901
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: supposed to be actually is basically socialism sore. Those two

902
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: things that do not necessarily conflict at all, and the

903
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: only thing that really conflicts at that point is like

904
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: the streamism and the you know, abusiveness obviously, right, but

905
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just felt like it felt like

906
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: an interesting juxposition to me. But yeah, I love bombing.

907
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: I I mean, obviously I would be vulnerable to that,

908
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 1: but I am someone who's like distrustful of people who

909
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: lay it on too thick or like give me too

910
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 1: much attention too soon, Right, So I wonder if I

911
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 1: would be the ideal candidate for that particular recruitment tactic

912
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: versus like you would probably be.

913
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: The ideal candidate for like ignoring, Like that would be

914
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 2: like if they just completely ignore deal.

915
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 3: You'd be like I want to join.

916
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's an elite group that, like I have

917
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: to jump over hoops to jump through hoops, you don't

918
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: jump over hoops Lola jump guys like jump right over it,

919
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: such a good shot. Yeah, if if they don't want

920
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: me to be a part of it, I feel like

921
00:49:57,920 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: that would maybe be more likely to appeal to me.

922
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: But also that's bullshit, because I love attention, y'all. I

923
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: fucking love attention. Who am I kidding?

924
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: Who doesn't?

925
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: But I think I think cult wise and more Elee

926
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: approach Wood would appeal to you more. You're right, if

927
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: anybody wants to get you in a cult, I'm just saying.

928
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: It's totally true. The Illuminati would be the ideal cult

929
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: for me. You know, I want to I want to

930
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: feel special and nice, smart and like you know, I

931
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know you guys, but hate bombing

932
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: is what I'm saying.

933
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, give her some hate bombs.

934
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 1: Please please don't, please don't. Okay, all right, Well, there's

935
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: there's much more to get into next week, and uh,

936
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: keep listening, Prince, please keep listening.

937
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: We hope you have an amazing week. Remember to follow

938
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: your gut.

939
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 3: Watch out for red flax.

940
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: And never, never, ever ever trust me.

941
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: Bye