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Speaker 1: It's that time time, time, luck and load.

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Speaker 2: So Michael Very Show is on the air. So in city,

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Speaker 2: in Democrat city politics, over the last fifty years, there

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Speaker 2: have been power shifts in who the boss is, but

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Speaker 2: there has never been a boss in fifty years who

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Speaker 2: had the consolidated power that Rodney Ellis does not even close.

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Speaker 2: There's been, you know, a big donor over here, been

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Speaker 2: a former congressman or former state rep who had some

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Speaker 2: influence over here. You know, Ben Reyes had some influence

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Speaker 2: on the East End, but even that was always challenged.

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Speaker 2: You had Gene Green who kind of had you know,

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Speaker 2: labor and some Hispanic Ben Reyes who had kind of

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Speaker 2: the more activist Hispanic and Sheila was trying to create

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Speaker 2: a Black Brown coalition, and she had her folks, and

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Speaker 2: each of them could could gather together and help get

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Speaker 2: a candidate across the finish line. But they didn't stack

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Speaker 2: bureaucracies from top to bottom with their handpicked choices. They

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Speaker 2: didn't have outside plenty of attorneys from Beaumont and Port

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Speaker 2: Arthur that would come in and spend a fortune. They

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Speaker 2: didn't have the strategy and the constant consistency that Rodney does. Now.

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Speaker 2: Some of you folks struggle to understand this, So I'm

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Speaker 2: going to say it yet again. If I tell you,

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Speaker 2: for instance, that Simone Biles at her peak, was really

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Speaker 2: good in gymnastics, that does not mean that I think

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Speaker 2: that her comments about Riley Gaines were accurate. I think

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Speaker 2: they're despicable. What I don't do, which too many people

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Speaker 2: have done, is if I like someone tell you they're

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Speaker 2: great at everything else or that they're going to win,

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Speaker 2: and if I don't like someone tell you they're going

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Speaker 2: to lose and that they also can't be bench press

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Speaker 2: forty pounds, I don't do that. I'll just tell you

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Speaker 2: exactly what I think is going to happen, based on

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Speaker 2: what I believe and based on the body of information

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Speaker 2: and experience I have. So let's go back without judgment.

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Speaker 2: This is what happened. So Sheila dies. It was known

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Speaker 2: that she was ill for some time. In fact, it's

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Speaker 2: funny most people don't know what's going on in Democrat

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Speaker 2: politics because I was involved for years, so many years

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Speaker 2: in city politics and have so many folks as sources

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Speaker 2: and friends. A lot of times, when I say something

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Speaker 2: I know to be true, I can't tell it because

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Speaker 2: people will trace where I got it, and it would

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Speaker 2: surprise people and burn my source. But I said, Sheila

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Speaker 2: has a terminal illness. She's going to die. And I

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Speaker 2: had people who loved the show. You said she don't die.

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Speaker 2: She ain't died yet, Michael, you said she don't die.

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Speaker 2: You said she'll die. Three weeks ago, boom, she was gone.

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Speaker 2: The people in the inner circle knew that she was

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Speaker 2: about to die, so the plotting had already begun. So

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Speaker 2: when the news emerged Sheila died, Oh my goodness, we

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Speaker 2: had no idea. Yeah, they know, And the calls had

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Speaker 2: been made and the meetings had been held and everything

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Speaker 2: had been put into place, and Sylvester was going to

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Speaker 2: be the replacement. Enter Jolanda Jones. When I left city council,

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Speaker 2: Jolanda Jones replaced me in that seat. Jolanda is a

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Speaker 2: former UH athlete. She's tall, she's striking like Grace Jones.

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Speaker 2: She's smart, she's crazy, she will fist fight you and win.

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Speaker 2: She's tough. She's a I don't know if she was

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Speaker 2: an Olympian, but I know she was a collegiate national competitor.

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Speaker 2: She's tall and strong and smart and loud and fearless.

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Speaker 2: Now she's all so crazy, and you know that that

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Speaker 2: kind of makes her. She'll turn. She has that there's

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Speaker 2: a constantly changing allegiance.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's Castlereagh and Metternick and the pieces on the chessboard.

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Speaker 2: But some people like her, and some people like her

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Speaker 2: that also like Sheila are also like Rodney. Here she's spunky.

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Speaker 2: So she was going to run in the congressional in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen congressional district seat for Sila's seat. Rodney cuts

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Speaker 2: a deal with her. Look, sylvester'z ill we all know it,

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Speaker 2: which they did. If you don't run against Sylvester, you

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Speaker 2: let him be the congressman. I'll support you to replace

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Speaker 2: him and it won't be long. She took the deal,

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Speaker 2: just like Amanda Edwards took the deal to step out

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Speaker 2: of the mayor's race against Sheila Jackson Lee and Rodney

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Speaker 2: and Sheila would support her in the congressional seat to

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Speaker 2: replace her in of course they didn't. These young politic,

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Speaker 2: young black politicians, take these people at their word and

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Speaker 2: they dupe them every time. Let's get you out of

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Speaker 2: this race. You got plenty of time, and we'll support

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Speaker 2: you in the next race. You don't do that anyway.

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Speaker 2: So Rodney was going to support her to replace Sylvester,

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Speaker 2: but he already had Christian Menefee because he can control

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Speaker 2: Christian Menefee, who is the who. He's gotten a county

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Speaker 2: post where he can control him there, so he slides

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Speaker 2: Christian Menefee over into that congressional seat and then he's

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Speaker 2: got his replacement to put in Christian Menefee seat. Rodney

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Speaker 2: is a boss the way I have never seen a

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Speaker 2: Republican or Democrat. And I've studied politics here for fifty years.

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Speaker 2: I know all the players. Rodney has complete and utter

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Speaker 2: control like I've never even seen anything in the realm

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Speaker 2: of this. A lot of Democrats have had enough. He's

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Speaker 2: the one who pushed kim On out. He's the one

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Speaker 2: who supported kim On. Then he's the one who pushed

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Speaker 2: her out. He's the one who puts Shawn Tier there.

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Speaker 2: And as long as Shawn Tier does exactly what he wants.

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Speaker 2: He pushed a lot of the old white judges, Democrat judges,

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Speaker 2: the white liberal judges out of their Harris County judicial

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Speaker 2: seats and replaced them with black women that he could control.

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Speaker 2: And in two election cycles in a row, he pushed

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Speaker 2: them all out. There was a lot of resentment. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of old white money that were some of

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Speaker 2: it Jewish, some of it gay, some of it just

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Speaker 2: old white liberal money. And Rodney has overstepped with a

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Speaker 2: lot of those so that he could have complete and

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Speaker 2: utter control. So Grant Martin, his candidate was Jolanda. So

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Speaker 2: when Jolanda cut the deal, Grant probably told her not to.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that for sure. She cut the deal,

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Speaker 2: Rodney betrayed her. Grant's pissed off. So there is now

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Speaker 2: a split between Rodney, who controls the gay faction, and

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Speaker 2: the entirety of the Harris County Republican Party. A large

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Speaker 2: part of that the black community. They're the Black Democrat

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Speaker 2: power structure. And then you've got Grant Martin over here

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Speaker 2: and a niece, and they've got a lot of connections

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Speaker 2: with the business community. There will be a lot of

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Speaker 2: Republicans who will quietly support them, who would maybe prefer

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Speaker 2: a Republican County judge. But they figure and these can

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Speaker 2: push Lena out, and that's the devil. They know that's

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Speaker 2: what's going to be happening over the next year, and

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Speaker 2: it's gets your popcorn. It's going to be good.

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Speaker 1: A lot of this introductions the love Budd Steenjel this

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Speaker 1: has been race driver Michael Berry Funny ramon the King

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Speaker 1: of Dean suggested for general audiences.

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Speaker 2: Energy the term you hear a lot in our community

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Speaker 2: because we're the energy capital of the country that is

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Speaker 2: in Houston, and a lot of jobs tied to the

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Speaker 2: energy industry, by which we mostly mean oil and gas

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Speaker 2: and natural gas, and much bigger component of that than

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Speaker 2: it would have been twenty five thirty years ago. And

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Speaker 2: then you've got the shellionaires, the folks in the Eagleford

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Speaker 2: share shell Shell. I never wondered why would eagle Ford

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Speaker 2: became Eagleford, but I like it. And you have folks

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Speaker 2: that were just sitting on ranching land. It wasn't that valuable,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden they're rich. Overnight it became

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Speaker 2: the Beverly Hill buildies all over again, lots of them.

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Speaker 2: And then you've got guys like Jeffrey Hildebrand, and you've

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Speaker 2: got guys like Rich Kinder, and you've got folks that

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Speaker 2: have made billions of dollars with energy assets and building

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Speaker 2: energy companies, and who knows what any of them do.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I like to think I have something of

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Speaker 2: an understanding, but it's it's a fascinating, fascinating part of

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Speaker 2: our overall economy and of the of the spirit of

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Speaker 2: what our community and state looks like. I mean, who

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Speaker 2: can forget the Shamrock Hotel and the stars parading through

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Speaker 2: this little hotel and they're skiing in the swimming pool.

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Speaker 2: Glenn McCarthy giant, the Great Wildcatter, personalities of the Cockrels

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Speaker 2: and Robertson's and Cullens and through the years, which to

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Speaker 2: this day, to this day are still if you look

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Speaker 2: at the largest charities writing checks for most every weether

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Speaker 2: it's cancer, muscular dystrophy, the local Little League, those charities

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Speaker 2: are all not all, are largely the Quintanas and Cullens

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Speaker 2: and all those families that were oil and gas families

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Speaker 2: and then electric in one way or another becomes a

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Speaker 2: major part of our policy discussion. We had the grid

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Speaker 2: go down a few years ago, and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden we looked like California with brown outs. That was serious.

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Speaker 2: We had the Valentine's Day freeze, which if you remember,

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Speaker 2: had folks screeching. You know who was going to make

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Speaker 2: it and who wasn't generators were running out of fuel.

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Speaker 2: You had local municipalities or the electric companies shutting off

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Speaker 2: generators because they were pulling too much gas. Oh, we

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Speaker 2: assume there might have been a spell. Well, that's why

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Speaker 2: I bought the damn generator. Idiot, stop it. You have

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Speaker 2: added to that. Now you've got when our oil, our

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Speaker 2: gasoline prices at the pump have relatively stabilized under Trump,

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Speaker 2: even despite the fact that Biden dumped so much of

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Speaker 2: our strategic reserves. Now you've got electric being a part

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Speaker 2: of the transportation component mix, and that all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: the number of people I know who drive electric cars

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Speaker 2: today versus fifteen years ago, it's very surprising, and they

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Speaker 2: love them. I don't think electric cars will replace internal

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Speaker 2: combustion engine, but it raises to me the more important

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Speaker 2: the policy question. If our grid can't keep up with

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Speaker 2: just air conditioning our homes, and they're trying to get

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Speaker 2: us to live in a terrarium like lizards at seventy

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Speaker 2: eight degrees at home so we don't use too much

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Speaker 2: electric power, then what about that power grid that Elon

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Speaker 2: wants to put in your garage that can hold enough

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Speaker 2: power to run the whole house. What about people that

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Speaker 2: are running their electric car on that from home every day.

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Speaker 2: There's no way we keep up with that, not with

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Speaker 2: our current bandwidth on our grid. I find these to

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Speaker 2: be very interesting questions. I am not a renewable energy guy.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a solar guy. I'm not a wind guy.

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Speaker 2: I am a big nuclear guy. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: the answer to a lot of our questions, not all

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Speaker 2: of them, but it's part of the mix. But I

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Speaker 2: do think it's important to hear from folks with different perspectives,

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Speaker 2: lots of experience, who are well respected in their field.

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Speaker 2: John Berger is one of those folks. Came highly recommended

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Speaker 2: from a fore from a number of folks. He co

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Speaker 2: founded Conentango Capital Management, a venture fund which focused on

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Speaker 2: early stage energy technologies and everything John Berger has worked

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Speaker 2: on is things that I poo poo all day long.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's only fair to talk to folks

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Speaker 2: and ask why are you so high on soldar? Why

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Speaker 2: are you so high on renewables, and just to have

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Speaker 2: him share his perspective. John Burger is our guest. Welcome. Thanks,

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Speaker 2: Michael's great to be here. That was kind of a

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Speaker 2: backhanded introduction. I don't know if you caught all that.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to deny that. And the reason was

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Speaker 2: I didn't want you to get all I told you

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Speaker 2: this the first time I met you. I didn't want

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Speaker 2: you to get all fired up over soldar and me

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Speaker 2: sit here going mm hmm, and people at home go,

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Speaker 2: you hate Solder Michael, why are you lying? All right?

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Speaker 2: So you were recommended to me as a guy who

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Speaker 2: has forgotten more about energy overall than most people will

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Speaker 2: ever know. I mean, I suppose we could put mister

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Speaker 2: Simmons into that category, or rich Kinder. But let's start

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Speaker 2: with something that everyone cares about, and that is the grid.

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Speaker 2: You've been an advisor to FIRK, the Federal Energy Regulation

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Speaker 2: Regulatory Committee. You've been around this a long time. You've

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Speaker 2: looked at alternate ways to monetize alternate energy sources. Where

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Speaker 2: are we on the Texas grid right now? Because my

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Speaker 2: fear as a Republican is going this is going to

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Speaker 2: bite Republicans on the rear and lead to a switch

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Speaker 2: and power in the state. But where are we in

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Speaker 2: grid bandwidth now and where do we need to be?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, we had a trying summer in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three and then last year and twenty twenty four

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Speaker 3: is actually pretty benign, really benign maybe from a power

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Speaker 3: plant producer's perspective, to benign in terms of the cash

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Speaker 3: flow that would go to these plants. And so why

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Speaker 3: is it that we've been able to dodge some of

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Speaker 3: these bullets as a demand from you know, data centers

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Speaker 3: and restoring and LG terminals and a bunch of you know,

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Speaker 3: just economic growth. Why have we been able to dodge

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Speaker 3: some of these bullets? And the answer is surprising, As

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Speaker 3: you know, solar in batteries, batteries in particular, I think

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Speaker 3: we're over to twelve gig a lot hours now in

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Speaker 3: climbing higher in storage, and that's been key and instrumental

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Speaker 3: between solar and storage to really solve problems, say for instance,

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Speaker 3: in last summer and as a great example of that

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Speaker 3: in August. So when you look at these technologies and

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Speaker 3: talk about them, look at them as technologies. You know,

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Speaker 3: I always say a solar panel never voted for either

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Speaker 3: a Democrat or a Republican, and it's just technology, and

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Speaker 3: that's what we need to be looking at, as well

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Speaker 3: as looking at and embracing our history with all the

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Speaker 3: fuels that I think are be needed for a long time,

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Speaker 3: specifically natural gas, and then looking ahead to new technologies,

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Speaker 3: Like you're a fan of Michael with nuclear, I'm less enthusiastic,

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Speaker 3: so I'll put that up there. Much less enthusiastic about nuclear.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fine to work ahead, but we've got

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Speaker 3: to understand that they're the problems of cost and planning

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Speaker 3: and getting these plants online and solved yet, and those

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Speaker 3: are really big problems.

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Speaker 2: So it's just as John Berger is our guest. You

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Speaker 2: might have known him from Sonova or a number of

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Speaker 2: other energy plays he's been the leader of over the years, coming.

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Speaker 1: Up the excitement of Oshan, the Michael Barry Show, Everything

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Speaker 1: You Need and most Everything you Want.

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Speaker 2: John Berger is our guest. He is a committed energy

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Speaker 2: buff in the monetization and policy side of how we

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Speaker 2: power things, a subject I find of great interest because

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Speaker 2: you know, we can talk a lot about political issues,

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Speaker 2: but energy is probably the greatest issue we spend the

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Speaker 2: least amount of time on, and we think of it

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Speaker 2: only in terms of what we pay for gas at

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Speaker 2: the pump, But it's so much more than that. It's

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Speaker 2: so much more than just what we pay in our

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Speaker 2: electric bill. Now start adding what you pay for gas,

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Speaker 2: your electric your office, your company's electric bill, manufacturing, the

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Speaker 2: cost of airlines, the cost of a ticket to get

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Speaker 2: here and there, the cost of heating and cooling your home.

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Speaker 2: All of these things affect your quality of life in

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Speaker 2: a massive, massive way. So, John, we were talking about

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Speaker 2: the electric grid. You've been very involved with renewables. I

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Speaker 2: am less bullish on renewables, but make the pitch. Give

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Speaker 2: me the two to three minutes on why you think

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Speaker 2: renewables are important and the sort of standard criticism you

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Speaker 2: get of prioritizing those, and how you would defend that certainly.

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Speaker 3: So I think, you know, first and foremost, let's set

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Speaker 3: aside the pricing of carbon.

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Speaker 2: You know that is a you know, pollutant.

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Speaker 3: We can get into that argument about whether it is

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Speaker 3: or isn't, and whether you know we should or how

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Speaker 3: we should ration carbon or not.

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Speaker 2: And so let's set that aside.

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Speaker 3: Let's just look at these Uh Solar, by the way,

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Speaker 3: solar and wind have very little incommon. I just want

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Speaker 3: to make that point. One's rotating machinery, one solid state.

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Speaker 2: Uh No, they had a lot in common.

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Speaker 3: All Right, you're all right, grant you that you grant you,

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Speaker 3: But I just want to make that point because that

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Speaker 3: that that that has the material difference. And let me

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Speaker 3: let me make this one you can put on your

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Speaker 3: office building or your home and one you can okay,

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Speaker 3: and that changes everything. And just like a battery, I'm

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Speaker 3: talking to you on a phone that has a lithium

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Speaker 3: ion battery, it's the same technology that Tesla puts you know,

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Speaker 3: Elon puts in the.

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Speaker 2: In the power walls.

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Speaker 3: So this is solid state technology and it's again technology

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Speaker 3: that's getting cheaper and better, and we need to embrace it.

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Speaker 3: Just like electric vehicles I heard you talking about. You know,

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Speaker 3: will it replace the internal combustion engine or not?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. But what I do know is is.

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Speaker 3: That the Tesla I drive is essentially a big iPhone

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Speaker 3: on the way to think about it, there's not much

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Speaker 3: to it in terms of cost structure. So we're seeing

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Speaker 3: this cost structure come down. And what we want to

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Speaker 3: do is and I want to take an issue with

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Speaker 3: something you said Houston being the energy capital of the country.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm going to say it's the energy capital of

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Speaker 3: the world. And to do that, we must embrace everything.

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Speaker 3: We must embrace oil. We must embrace natural gas. We

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Speaker 3: must embrace advancement in nuclear technology. We can get there.

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Speaker 3: But solar and software and storage batteries of all types,

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Speaker 3: we need to embrace all that because we're going to

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Speaker 3: need all of it. It's not just us, but it's

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Speaker 3: the entire world. And so when you look at solar

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Speaker 3: and storage, whether it's in front of the meter, which

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Speaker 3: means by the utilities and the big power lines, or

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Speaker 3: on your house, which we call behind the meter, it

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Speaker 3: is providing local power that a gas plant, a combined

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Speaker 3: cycle gas plant, one at scale, can't do. Now my

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Speaker 3: personal opinion, a combined cycle gas plant can do a

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Speaker 3: a whole lot better job, even at these prices where

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Speaker 3: gas plants have gone to over the last three years,

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Speaker 3: than a solar farm. Okay, And so I think that

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Speaker 3: the point here is is that all this has a

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Speaker 3: place in the mix. And what I've said over and

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Speaker 3: over for over a decade is if you had to

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Speaker 3: generalize it and say what does the future look like,

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Speaker 3: I think the future looks like centralized gas and decentralized

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Speaker 3: solar and batteries, because that makes the grid, whatever the

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Speaker 3: grid is in the local area. In this case Urkot

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Speaker 3: in Texas, we're talking about look more like the Internet,

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Speaker 3: where you have instead of just one way Soviet style

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Speaker 3: command control powers going down in place and you just

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Speaker 3: have loads at the endpoints of the system. Now you've

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Speaker 3: got all these small generators and big generators. You know,

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Speaker 3: think data centers and think the iPhone that I'm talking

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Speaker 3: to you on, and it's all going in two directions.

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Speaker 2: It's a network.

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Speaker 3: And that's what's exciting about what we see as the future.

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Speaker 3: And so when you strip away the politics here and

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Speaker 3: just look at this, it's say this makes sense, makes

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Speaker 3: sense together, it's not one of the others together. And

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Speaker 3: I'll make this point about Texas in particular, Governor Abbott

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Speaker 3: and the governor's perform. Governor Perry and Governor Bush ought

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Speaker 3: to be very proud. Yet again Texas is showing not

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Speaker 3: just the country but the world and having leadership about

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Speaker 3: having capitalism in the power markets. And what I mean

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Speaker 3: by that is what we don't realize often as folks

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Speaker 3: from Houston and Dallas is is that we're unique in

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Speaker 3: the entire country. We're we're even unique to the folks

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Speaker 3: that live in Austin and sant Anton and that we

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Speaker 3: have steparated the customer facing so think you know, rely

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Speaker 3: on energy champions and so forth, from the actual polls

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Speaker 3: and wires, which is center point, from the actual generation,

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Speaker 3: which is you know, think NRG, Calpine and Constellation and

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Speaker 3: so forth. And that gives us a competitive marketplace that

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Speaker 3: embraces new technologies and lets them say, Okay, let consumers

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Speaker 3: choose what they want. If they want panels on their home,

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Speaker 3: they can get panels our home. They want to drive

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Speaker 3: an EV, they can drive an EV. If they don't,

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Speaker 3: that's fine too. We are leading the country on that.

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Speaker 3: And I really say that the biggest thing that we

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Speaker 3: have going for again Texas is leading, as Kevin Avas

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Speaker 3: be very proud, is is that we're showing the way

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Speaker 3: about how to solve the power problem that we are

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Speaker 3: now talking about with almost on a daily basis and

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Speaker 3: in common conversation. The only way forward is to open

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Speaker 3: it up, get consumer's choice, and embrace capitalism.

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Speaker 2: John, you talked about the Texas approach and things we've

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Speaker 2: done well. I want to I want to get a

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Speaker 2: little more granular on what you said, because the devil's

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Speaker 2: in the details here. You said, if folks want to

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Speaker 2: drive an EV. Well, the Biden administration gave us seventy

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Speaker 2: five hundred dollars tax credit if you bought an EV.

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Speaker 2: That is an alter that's altering the marketplace. Secondly, if

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Speaker 2: you said if you want to if you want solar, okay, fine,

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Speaker 2: but there have been some very aggressive tax credits on solar.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, the solar folks who send out these

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Speaker 2: blast spam emails, the number one thing they push is

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Speaker 2: not great energy, stable energy, sustainable energy. It's tax credit,

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Speaker 2: tax credit, tax credit. So to me, when you are

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Speaker 2: leading with tax credit as your as what you're going with,

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Speaker 2: it looks like the Trump administration is going to pull

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Speaker 2: away out of the budget. This this the one big bill,

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Speaker 2: the EV tax credit. But you're not just saying everyone

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Speaker 2: can choose. You are attempting to guide the consumer's choice

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Speaker 2: with a subsidy.

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Speaker 3: Well that that's a fact. Now what's also a fact is,

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Speaker 3: again out of Houston, Dallas, the rest of the country

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Speaker 3: operates the power industry or power industry as a Soviet

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Speaker 3: style system, and so that is massively subsidized as well. Okay,

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Speaker 3: And so what my view is, drain this one. You know,

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Speaker 3: the regulations of you know, a four letter word. I

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Speaker 3: understand that, but you can call it consumer choice updating.

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Speaker 3: Regulate the regulatory landscape and rules that govern the US

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Speaker 3: power industry to make it look like more like Europe.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for God's sake, I hate to say this,

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Speaker 3: but you know, the French are more capitalistic in their

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Speaker 3: power industry than we are outside Houston, Dallas, and that's

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Speaker 3: got to change. And so when you embrace that and

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Speaker 3: you take out the subsidy that is the Soviet style

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Speaker 3: system in power, then I think we need to take

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Speaker 3: a harder look at all these credits and so forth

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Speaker 3: and just and get rid of them. And that seems

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Speaker 3: to me like a fair trade if we can get

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Speaker 3: everything on a level playing field to let the market work. Now,

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Speaker 3: the separate question is mentioned earlier, how do we price carbon?

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Speaker 3: If we want to ration it, we want to tax it, how.

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Speaker 2: Do we do that?

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Speaker 3: I personally don't like the way that this country is

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Speaker 3: alighted on tax credits and subsidies to do that. I

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Speaker 3: like a cap and trade system and so forth, But

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Speaker 3: that's a secondary question.

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Speaker 2: Cod with and John Berger is our guest. More Community.

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Speaker 3: To meet the Michael Barry's.

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Speaker 2: Energy policy in Policy and practice should not be run

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Speaker 2: by the government. It should be within constraints regulated by

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Speaker 2: the government. And there are some places where you need regulation.

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Speaker 2: I mean, most everybody understands you want to give some

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Speaker 2: sort of guardrails. The questions where woul those guardrails be.

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Speaker 2: John Berger is our guest. He's been a policy advisor

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Speaker 2: to the FERK, but he's also been on the capitalist side,

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Speaker 2: the private sector side of how you make money. And

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Speaker 2: it's important to understand that it's the guys who are

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Speaker 2: trying to make money who are going to drive policy

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Speaker 2: and who are going to drive energy in practice, as

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Speaker 2: it should be in every industry. John Berger mentioned a

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Speaker 2: moment ago that deregulation is a four letter word. It's

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Speaker 2: a nasty thing, is a bad thing, it's a bad reputation.

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Speaker 2: And I will give you why. I think that is

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Speaker 2: being the headquartered town of Enron, and having had a

431
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: lot of friends that worked at Ron, and many of

432
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: you probably did as well, and friends that did nothing wrong.

433
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: They were part of a company that was doing some

434
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: things wrong and doing some things very right. Some really smart.

435
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: They really were the smartest guys in the room. I

436
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: do believe that they just had some ethical lapses. There

437
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: was a deregulation of the energy market in California, and

438
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: I think this is more than anything else, what makes

439
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 2: people hate deregulation. So as this fired, wildfire burned in California,

440
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: just as we saw recently in Palisades. There was audio

441
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: that later was turned over to regulators of energy traders,

442
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: and they say, burn, baby burn, that's a beautiful thing.

443
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: Listen to this under the carne if you're order to

444
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: forty five twenty one, how.

445
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: To burn the baby burn, that's a beautiful thing.

446
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: So this was reducing output, driving up prices, and Run

447
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: was getting rich off of it. So the audio files

448
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: that were handed over to regulators letter said he just

449
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: f's California. One in run employee says that he steals

450
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: money from California to the tune of about a million.

451
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: That's a million a day. Will you rephrase that? Asks

452
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: a second employee. Okay, he he arbitrages the California market

453
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: to the tune of a million bucks or two a day,

454
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: So it's pretty nasty. The inrun worker is heard in

455
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: the tape saying, if you took down the steamer, how

456
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: long would it take to get it back up?

457
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: Oh?

458
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: It's not something you want to just be turning off

459
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: and on every hour. Let's put it that way. Well,

460
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: why don't you just go ahead shut her down? Well

461
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 2: this was later used as by utility regulators as they

462
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 2: were manipulating the market. It looks bad. And one of

463
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: the employees at Enron is caught on tape saying they're

464
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: effing taking all the money back from you guys, all

465
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California. Response, Yeah,

466
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: Grandma Millie Man, Now she wants her f and money

467
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: back for all the power you've charged right up, Jimmed,

468
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: right up her ass for fing two hundred and fifty

469
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: dollars a megawatte hour. It's bad, It's very bad. In fact,

470
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: the Ron lawyer who made this submission made the statement

471
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: that this doesn't prove anything other than the fact that

472
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: quote people at Enron sometimes talked like Barnacle Bill the

473
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: sailor what a line. John Berger is our guest. How

474
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: much did that particular incident that was seared into the

475
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: nation's mind because Enron became the picture of grotesque greed

476
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: affect our ability to have a deregulated within within reason

477
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: energy market.

478
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think people think about that, Michael, you know,

479
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: quite a bit. But I'm going to take a different

480
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 3: tact on that completely and say that that's not the

481
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: reason deregulation failed. There was a big trend in deregulation

482
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 3: across the economy, trucking, airlines, gas, natural gas, a lot

483
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: of different areas started in the late seventies and really

484
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: took hold in the eighties and finished up in the nineties.

485
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: And power was a part of that deregulation movement. Okay,

486
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: The problem is unlike was take telecommunications, fantastic analogy and

487
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: example you had in the nineteen nineties. We you know,

488
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to date myself here, but remember the formation

489
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: of the Internet and cellular technology was just coming to

490
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: the four for average person, and yet fiber optics. So

491
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: the point is you a lot of new technologies, distributed technologies.

492
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: When you look at the Internet and cellular capability to lepany,

493
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: and when.

494
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: You look at power, what did you have? Nothing?

495
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 3: There was no technology change. And so when you look

496
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: at the big failures in the case of the power industry,

497
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: it wasn't just in Ron. We had a lot of

498
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: other bankruptcies too. Around town it was. You look at

499
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: the telecom side, there were no you know, there were

500
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: scandals there remember WorldCom Well, molobile crossing again, I'm dating myself,

501
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: but why didn't that stop telecommunications deregulating? Why didn't it?

502
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: I mean those are certainly in some cases more manipulated

503
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: and so forth than in ron supposedly. So the reason

504
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 3: was the technology won and we didn't.

505
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: Have technology changes in power.

506
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: We just got ahead of ourselves. We got policy, got

507
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: ahead of the technology. Well, now we've got the other

508
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: the opposite situation. We've got solar that's cheap, we've got batteries,

509
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: we've got software, We've we've advanced solid state technolologies like

510
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 3: silicon based chips and software and batteries. Right, we didn't

511
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 3: even have lithium ion back then it was in very

512
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: small quantities.

513
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: We had it very expensive. But now we have all this.

514
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: Now we're behind on the regulatory side. Now we need

515
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: to open up the market and allow these technologies to

516
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: do things that maybe the vast majority of us can't

517
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 3: think about doing, creating new business models at lower costs

518
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: for consumers.

519
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 2: That we couldn't do.

520
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: This is why capitalism works and government does not. You

521
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: don't turn an industry over to a gorament. I don't

522
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: care what industry it is. And power is not immune,

523
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: it's not different. It is an industry that ought to

524
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: be driven, as you said, by for profit companies with

525
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: rules with guardrails. So we got to update the regulations.

526
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: We got to make sure that people are protected with

527
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: distributed technologies like solar. Now you talked about going door

528
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: to door. We need to update these regular regulatory structures

529
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 3: so that consumers are protected. But we've got to do

530
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 3: the work. We got to get out of the way

531
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: and let the market do the work. And so when

532
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: you look at the difference here is public communications had

533
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 3: the technologies back in the nineties. Power didn't, and now

534
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: power has the technologies, and I think that would be

535
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: a world of difference. Imagine you have your own power

536
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: plant in your house, whether it's your car or a

537
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: solar or batteries or a generator on your home, and

538
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: now you can shut that power off from the grid

539
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: and just use your own so you don't.

540
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: Get jammed with bills.

541
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: That's that is the beauty of the market that we

542
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: have here in Houston and Dallas and the rest of

543
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: the country. Out of tape note and do like what

544
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: Texas has done.

545
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: I do think there has been a great deal of

546
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: resentment at the consumer level that the ev folks, the

547
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: solar folks, and I know you don't want to be

548
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: lumped in with them, the wind folks, the alternative energy folks,

549
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: that when they came in and tried to penetrate the

550
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: market and first really got a lot of political influence.

551
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: Especially during the Obama administration. There was this idea that

552
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: you had to trash the carbon based technologies that had

553
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: been with us for a long time, and you know,

554
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: you sort of say down with coal and up with electric.

555
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: I don't think you can have one without the other.

556
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: And I think there were a lot of people who

557
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: resented that, whether that be the coal industry or coal miners,

558
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: or the consumer who had his car turned off during

559
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: the Obomba administration every time he stops at a red light.

560
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 2: I think those sorts of things really pissed people off

561
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: and affected how people think about these sorts of things.

562
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: John Berger's Our Guests coming Up