Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: quick takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio Fed Wednesday up.
Speaker 1: That was a big deal. But we also just came
Speaker 1: from the plaza where we were surrounded by a bunch
Speaker 1: of leaders, heads of companies, heads of state, heads of organizations, nonprofits, you, governor,
Speaker 1: to there. There were definitely a lot of politicians as well,
Speaker 1: and it made us think a lot about leadership, and
Speaker 1: our next guest has a lot to say when it
Speaker 1: comes to being a prepared leader. We're talking about Erica
Speaker 1: H James. She's dean of the Wharton School at the
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania. She joins US now via zoom from Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: You've heard it before, but it's worth repeating. New Book along,
Speaker 1: written along with Lynn Perry Wootton, is the prepared leader
Speaker 1: emerged from any crisis more resilient than before. Erica, it's
Speaker 1: good to have you on a Bloomberg Business Week. How
Speaker 1: are you? I'm great, Tim Carol, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us. So you know, I
Speaker 1: know that you and Um Lynn wouldn't have done decades
Speaker 1: of research into leadership. What is the sort of common
Speaker 1: thread that ties all leaders together, whether we're talking about
Speaker 1: leaders of companies, leaders of business schools or or leaders
Speaker 1: of countries. Well, there's more than just one common thread,
Speaker 1: but I think there are a couple that are really important.
Speaker 1: One is a focus on what you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1: What's the outcome? WHAT'S THE VISION? What's the direction that
Speaker 1: you want to take your organization, Your City, Your Unit Um?
Speaker 1: And then the second is the ability to communicate effectively
Speaker 1: so that people buy into what it is you are
Speaker 1: asking them to do in order to get to that
Speaker 1: outcome or get to that vision. So communication of your
Speaker 1: outcome or desired end goal are the two things that
Speaker 1: are common among all leaders. has there been any kind
Speaker 1: of rethink on leadership coming off the COVID pandemic? I
Speaker 1: do think, you know, all leaders kind of took a
Speaker 1: real deep look at themselves and and and their strategies
Speaker 1: and how they deal with employer employees, especially as I
Speaker 1: feel like employees still a bit in the driver's seat
Speaker 1: at this point, when you've got a lot of workers
Speaker 1: are still saying I'm going to work at home, why
Speaker 1: I don't want to come back to the office. Um.
Speaker 1: But tell us about kind of the impact of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: I think the pandemic rocked everyone's world and you know
Speaker 1: what we thought to be true? The safety was which
Speaker 1: we thought are our universe operated in, was all sort
Speaker 1: of thrown up in in in the wind. Uh. So
Speaker 1: I do think that leaders are thinking about their responsibilities differently.
Speaker 1: I think they're thinking about their outcomes differently, I think
Speaker 1: they're thinking about their people differently and to your point,
Speaker 1: Carol Um, that rethink is being pushed a lot by
Speaker 1: employees and recognizing that they are in the driver's seat.
Speaker 1: They have a lot that they want to contribute, but
Speaker 1: they want to contribute in their own way and under
Speaker 1: their own terms, and I think leaders are now trying
Speaker 1: to come to terms with how do we manage in
Speaker 1: an environment where, you know, they were in charge, they
Speaker 1: set the rules, they set the policies and now have
Speaker 1: to be flexible to changing demographic and changing interests of
Speaker 1: their key stakeholders. Isn't this a good thing? Isn't this
Speaker 1: a great thing? It is a great thing and it
Speaker 1: will be a great thing over time. I think right
Speaker 1: now we're caught up in this middle stage where we're
Speaker 1: not quite sure where to exert influence and pressure and
Speaker 1: where to pull back. And until we sort of normalize Um,
Speaker 1: the flexibility, until we normalize what you know, the need
Speaker 1: to listen to a variety of stakeholders and and add
Speaker 1: their and put into the equation of our decision making,
Speaker 1: we're going to still be going through a pretty rocky period,
Speaker 1: I would argue, for a couple of years actually. You know,
Speaker 1: it is interesting too, when I think about a crisis
Speaker 1: like I hit you right and you're in the midst
Speaker 1: of it, you've got to deal with it and you're
Speaker 1: running around, you know, putting out fires and so on
Speaker 1: and so forth. But there are crisis that you know,
Speaker 1: as a result, stay with a company or a leader
Speaker 1: for a long time. How do you think about that?
Speaker 1: So in our work we talked about two different kinds
Speaker 1: of crisis. We talked about the sudden crisis, which is,
Speaker 1: as you describe, something that sort of happens out of
Speaker 1: the blue, we didn't really anticipate it, and oftentimes it's
Speaker 1: an externally imposed threat. So you know, the weather conditions
Speaker 1: in Puerto Rico right now are a crisis for that
Speaker 1: region of the world. Um At, a Paris attack is
Speaker 1: a crisis that happens pretty suddenly. And yet the kinds
Speaker 1: of crisis that we tend to deal with on a
Speaker 1: day to day basis but never really invest in learning
Speaker 1: how to manage them well, or what we call smoldering crises.
Speaker 1: Those are those things that are internal to the organization,
Speaker 1: oftentimes the function of poor decision making or in attention
Speaker 1: to particular issues, that just bubble onto the surface for
Speaker 1: quite some time until they erupt into something pretty significant.
Speaker 1: And I think both of both kinds of crises matter
Speaker 1: and we need to be responsive to them, but we
Speaker 1: tend to we in the UH, you know, create practices
Speaker 1: around the sudden crisis and less so about around the
Speaker 1: small green ones. We do want to get back to
Speaker 1: our guest. We're talking with Erica James, dean of the
Speaker 1: Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. She and her
Speaker 1: co writer have a new book out with Lynn Perry Wooden.
Speaker 1: It is called the prepared it's been a long day.
Speaker 1: The prepared leader emerged from any crisis more resilient than before.
Speaker 1: Um Erica, one thing I wanted to ask you. We're
Speaker 1: always interested in particular leaders and I'm curious what leaders
Speaker 1: you looked at uh in terms of what do you say? Well,
Speaker 1: I was just gonna I'm so sorry to interrupt your carrol.
Speaker 1: There are there are some really good Um blurbs on
Speaker 1: the back of the book from familiar leaders. Ross brewer
Speaker 1: over at Walgreens, boots alliance, at bastion, Delta, James Gorman, chairman,
Speaker 1: and Ce old Morgan Stanley. So I mean they've read
Speaker 1: the book. Yeah, but we're wondering about lessons like, you know,
Speaker 1: who specifically we should be looking at? Yeah, Erica, like
Speaker 1: it's just in this world it's so phone to get
Speaker 1: some specific examples of like kind of leaders that you
Speaker 1: guys have looked at who have come under pressure and
Speaker 1: had maybe their leadership tested. Yeah, well, I mean you
Speaker 1: named three terrific ones, all of whom were leading tremendously
Speaker 1: important organizations. UH, during the during the pandemic. You know
Speaker 1: that the transportation industry was thrown for a loop in
Speaker 1: the middle of the pandemic, and so what was you know,
Speaker 1: at bastion leading Delta through that? I remember talking with
Speaker 1: the colleague a Delta who said, Erica, this was the
Speaker 1: day that our revenue basically went to zero, which meant
Speaker 1: nobody was flying anywhere on Delta Airlines and that's a
Speaker 1: pretty tough place to come back from. Uh. So I
Speaker 1: he is a CEO that I admire tremendously and what
Speaker 1: he's been able to do both in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: through the pandemic, managing all of the different mandates around
Speaker 1: mask wearing, not mask, not mask wearing, that the political
Speaker 1: dynamic that is a part of that conversation, managing the
Speaker 1: Um the passengers on the plane and increased fighting and
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff, and they handled that as well
Speaker 1: as could be expected under the circumstances and I think
Speaker 1: part of what we saw in his leadership, for example,
Speaker 1: was a willingness to be really authentic, to talk very
Speaker 1: clearly about what they their decision making, why they were
Speaker 1: making their decisions. UH, set new guidelines, allow other people
Speaker 1: in the organization to come forward with their ideas and
Speaker 1: thoughts for for managing the situation and just sort of
Speaker 1: being in the throes of this with employees to get better.
Speaker 1: Dean James, I'm wondering if you know in your classroom
Speaker 1: you can identify, just by interacting with students who are
Speaker 1: going to be the next CEO Su a fair question.
Speaker 1: Good question. UH, no pressure. The students are listening and
Speaker 1: right yes, Um, it's it's hard to know for sure,
Speaker 1: but clearly there are people who have this spark about them,
Speaker 1: who are very articulate and what it is they're trying
Speaker 1: to achieve for their life or what problem they're trying
Speaker 1: to solve, and you can tell that they will be
Speaker 1: in a significant leadership role. Whether they are CEO or
Speaker 1: whether they're an entrepreneur. That's more difficult to predict, but
Speaker 1: there are some people who are just so clearly focused
Speaker 1: on contributing good into the world in some way that
Speaker 1: you know that they're going to rise to some significant
Speaker 1: level in society. It's so I mean I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to think right now about people I was in school
Speaker 1: with who have, you know, mostly high school at this point,
Speaker 1: who have gone on to incredible careers that I would
Speaker 1: never have guessed for them. And what what really, you know,
Speaker 1: surprised me about them and if they had that that
Speaker 1: leadership style, well, well, well, just to build on Tim
Speaker 1: like I think you know, is it fair to say, Erica,
Speaker 1: that people can have qualities that would make them initially
Speaker 1: put them in a position to lead something, but then
Speaker 1: it comes to maybe leaders who can do well when
Speaker 1: everything's doing well, versus the leader who all of a
Speaker 1: sudden is faced with a test or a major crisis. Well,
Speaker 1: I love that question, and one of the reasons is
Speaker 1: we tend to think that our title informs how effective
Speaker 1: we will be in a time of crisis, and that's
Speaker 1: not often the case and in fact sometimes it's the
Speaker 1: people who are more quiet, who are more reserved, who
Speaker 1: are readily going about their work, uh, and who aren't
Speaker 1: the most boastful or or aggressive members of your community
Speaker 1: that are paying attention to what's going on in the world,
Speaker 1: are paying attention to what's going on in their organization
Speaker 1: and it's that insight and that very quiet perspective that
Speaker 1: allows them to stand up in times of crisis. So
Speaker 1: the leader then needs to identify those people in the organization,
Speaker 1: and it's not always that people can hold a particular
Speaker 1: c suite title that are going to be the most effective.
Speaker 1: How about this wine? Sorry, Tim that's the brain. All
Speaker 1: of a sudden, like has kicked in. Um, women versus men?
Speaker 1: Are there any qualities or any generalities that we can
Speaker 1: make that women being better in crisis management or men
Speaker 1: being better in crisis management? Yeah, well, recognizing that, to
Speaker 1: use your word, these are generalities, but one of the
Speaker 1: things that we observed in writing the prepared leader is
Speaker 1: because the focus in our book was using the pandemic
Speaker 1: as a thread throughout all different types of crises, what
Speaker 1: we saw was women who brought to the pandemic a
Speaker 1: humanity and a recognition. Yes, there were health related issues
Speaker 1: that needed to be addressed, but there were also a
Speaker 1: level of emotional issues and interpersonal, dynamic issues that were
Speaker 1: part of this crisis that women brought to the forefront
Speaker 1: and surfaced in a ways, in a way that many
Speaker 1: people seem to appreciate. So that's not to say that
Speaker 1: men can't or didn't do that, but generally some of
Speaker 1: the characteristics that typically describe women and women's leadership found
Speaker 1: value in this particular crisis, which I think informs how
Speaker 1: we should think about the needs that are necessary for
Speaker 1: for leaders going forward. Before we let you go, just
Speaker 1: what's one leadership lesson you can leave with our listeners
Speaker 1: and our viewers at the end of the day here,
Speaker 1: I think the most important thing is to remember that
Speaker 1: people are the are at the heart of what you're doing.
Speaker 1: You're running a company which is not just the brick
Speaker 1: and mortar. It is actually the people you are working for,
Speaker 1: people your your your shareholders, your customer Mers, your clients,
Speaker 1: and understanding what it is they need and being responsive
Speaker 1: to those needs is really, really critical, and sometimes it's
Speaker 1: very easy to get sidetracked by other things that are
Speaker 1: actually less, less Germane, but may sort of capture your
Speaker 1: attention and we lose side of the fact that we
Speaker 1: need to be responsive to the people in our organizations,
Speaker 1: both our employees and our customers. Some great advice to
Speaker 1: wrap up on this Wednesday. Hey, Erica. Thank you so much, Erica.
Speaker 1: James Diana the Morton School at the University of Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Check out her new book written with Lynn Perry Wooten.
Speaker 1: The prepared leader emerged from any crisis more resilient than before.
Speaker 1: It's basically like learned from the crisis. Yeah, it's cool,
Speaker 1: but you know, she's also she's a professor, but she's
Speaker 1: also a board member. She's on Morgan Stanley's board. She's
Speaker 1: on Morgan, she's on survey monkey's board too. So she's
Speaker 1: got a lot of practical experience as well, privy to
Speaker 1: a lot of probably interesting conversations in times of real
Speaker 1: stress Um. That will do it for the this fed
Speaker 1: Wednesday for Tim Stanovic and the Hol Bloomberg Business Week
Speaker 1: team of a good and safe evening. This is Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Radio