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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Could it be real? Is

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Speaker 1: this true? If police release a DNA sample, could the

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Speaker 1: murderer of beauty Queen John Benet Ramsay be identified within hours?

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Serious X

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Speaker 1: one eleven. First of all, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: To think that in the archives of the Bolda Police

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Speaker 1: station is the remaining DNA that was found on John Benet,

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Speaker 1: and that you have the ability to today solve this case.

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Speaker 1: Yet they're not handing it over. That's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: If their reasons are anything less than transparency, then full transparency.

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Speaker 1: It is heartbreaking. You were hearing our friends at Australia's

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Speaker 1: sixty Minutes. Why not release what we believe to be credible, reliable,

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Speaker 1: usable DNA deoxyribonucleic acid. Why not release it and hopefully

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Speaker 1: put an end to one of the biggest murder mysteries

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Speaker 1: that have plagued our country. With me an all star panel,

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Speaker 1: but before I introduced them all, let me first go

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Speaker 1: to Audrey Conklin, our reporter from Fox and News Digital.

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Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at odd pants Audrey Conklin,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Yet another wrinkle in

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Speaker 1: the never ending saga of John Boney Ramsey. Nobody's gonna

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Speaker 1: let it go until there's an answer. What's the latest.

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Speaker 1: The latest is the Ramsey family is pushing for new

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Speaker 1: DNA testing. They want the Boulder Police Department to allow

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Speaker 1: an independent agency to conduct testing on the more than

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty pieces of evidence in this case,

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Speaker 1: John Ramsay, John Bennet's father, unbuild a petition back in

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Speaker 1: April asking Colorado Governor Polis to do this, and so

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Speaker 1: that's what the family is pushing for right now, and

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Speaker 1: so far they haven't really received any answers. I want

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Speaker 1: to go to for instic expert and Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starvin you hit series

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Speaker 1: on iHeart Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: When I hear there are two hundred and fifty items

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Speaker 1: with potential, didn't you say that autikaklin potential or verify

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Speaker 1: DNA on them? They have DNA evidence that could potentially

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Speaker 1: be retested to build out a profile of the suspect. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so what we know Joe Scott Morgan is that there

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Speaker 1: is DNA. What does this really mean to you? Because

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Speaker 1: to say there's DNA yet, there's DNA on this pen

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Speaker 1: and it's going to have my epiphilial seals on it.

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Speaker 1: But if this was found that a murder, saying what

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Speaker 1: would it prove? To just give the blanket statement there's DNA,

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Speaker 1: how is that going to help me solve this case?

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Speaker 1: Jump in, Well, it's a process of elimination, and firstly,

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Speaker 1: it's important to eliminate those individuals that are known to

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Speaker 1: be in that home. But what if one of them

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Speaker 1: is the killer? And I am not referring to Burke

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Speaker 1: And because I believe John Bena Ramsey still had a hymen,

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Speaker 1: it's my belief that she was not molested by an

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Speaker 1: adult male because full on child rape would have destroyed

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Speaker 1: her hymen completely. I agree. But if it's someone else

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Speaker 1: related to John Benay, would that be explained away as saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: that would naturally be in the home. Well to a

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Speaker 1: certain degree, however, where there are focal concentrations of sample,

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Speaker 1: say in inappropriate areas. You know you mentioned the Hyman

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Speaker 1: being intact. However, we have to remember that there was

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Speaker 1: vaginal traumas. If you think about a clock face, the physicians,

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Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologists actually talk about that there's a slight

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Speaker 1: abraided area about the seven o'clock position to the opening.

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Speaker 1: Are you talking about the vaginal opening of his child? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I am now wait, wait, hold on, hold on seven o'clock. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming you're referring to if she was in the

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Speaker 1: middle of having a pelvic exam right at seven o'clock.

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Speaker 1: Here's my question, how do I know that that is

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Speaker 1: a recent or an old abrasion? They'll be able to

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Speaker 1: term that, and they actually used in the autopsy report,

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Speaker 1: which I've been reading for years now, they talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the abraided areas that she had on her body.

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Speaker 1: That's a it is when we think about skinning our knee.

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Speaker 1: Most of the abrasions that she has are had or

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Speaker 1: related to these ropes and the bindings that she had on.

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Speaker 1: And when they're exposed to say air, and they'll have

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Speaker 1: almost a parchment like dried out area. And we know

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Speaker 1: what scrapes look like after they dry. Are you trying

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Speaker 1: to say a scab No, I'm not trying to say

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Speaker 1: a scab. I'm just talking about ahead. I'm just talking

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Speaker 1: about when the skin has been insulted or abraided, it

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Speaker 1: begins to dry out. There's not enough time for a

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Speaker 1: scab to form. All right, that's that's something that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen in an anti mortem state. But those are significant. Now,

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Speaker 1: what they could do is looking at the aforementioned area

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Speaker 1: in her vaginal area. You know, they'll have to age

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Speaker 1: that and give a conclusion. You can go back to

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Speaker 1: doctor Myers. R. Okay, wait a minute. You know what,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Morgan, I think what you're saying. Let me just

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Speaker 1: take a stab at this. Yeah, is okay. In response

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Speaker 1: to my question, if there is an abrasion at seven

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Speaker 1: o'clock within this child's vaginal area, right seven o'clock, they

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Speaker 1: could look at it and determine is it old or

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Speaker 1: is it new, Just like any other abrasion on your skin,

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Speaker 1: like when you skin your knees, you can look and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that just happened, or you can say, oh, that happened

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Speaker 1: this afternoon, or that happened a couple of days ago.

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Speaker 1: By based on the degree of healing. Yes, yeah again yes,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our long

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Speaker 1: time friend in college, Jim Moray at Inside Edition, John

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Speaker 1: Bennet's father, John Ramsey, is calling on the Governor of

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Speaker 1: Colorado to take the case out of the hands of

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Speaker 1: the Boulder Police and transfer it to an independent agency.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who do this to a child is just beyond sick,

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Speaker 1: maybe still out there, and if he is, he's probably

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Speaker 1: killed other children. He or she. How did the whole

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Speaker 1: thing start? Art? Take a listen to the nine one

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Speaker 1: one call, please party, were fine on them? Kinder? Sorry?

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Speaker 1: Plain to me? When fine? Okay? So we were a

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Speaker 1: note brought, a note, was resting? How old as she

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Speaker 1: got her? Good? God, I want to go. I don't

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Speaker 1: know where to feel them? And my god, dame cheer,

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Speaker 1: what is the name gender? Ransom? Note? Here? The ransom now?

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Speaker 1: Because it's a TC victory? Please okay? What's your name?

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Speaker 1: Are you happy? Lambs here? And the mother? Oh my god, please,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay, hol me enough to tell them? Okay, do

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Speaker 1: you know she's been got out here? My god? Please? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I am honey. You were hearing the nine on one

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Speaker 1: call placed by the mom Patsy Ramsey, The ransom note

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Speaker 1: says SBTC victory, and that has been analyzed over and

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Speaker 1: over and over. Some theorize it's saved by the cross

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Speaker 1: victory or it could be a reference to John Ramsey's

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Speaker 1: Subic Bay Training Center. So I don't know what SBTC means,

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Speaker 1: but those are two windows into the mind of whoever

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Speaker 1: wrote that ransom note. I want to go to doctor

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Speaker 1: Monty Miller, Director forensics DNA experts, UM specialist in sex

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Speaker 1: assault and murder, former forensics scientist for the TEA. It's

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Speaker 1: part of the public safety state crime Wow, that's not shabby,

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Speaker 1: doctor Monty Miller. What do you make of the demand

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Speaker 1: now to have that DNA tested? Why hasn't it been tested?

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Speaker 1: And what do you make of what Audrey Conklin from

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Speaker 1: Fox News Digital is saying that there are two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty items that could be tested. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: they would testimer. I mean I think that would you know,

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Speaker 1: test the most important ones, the ones that are on

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Speaker 1: the intimate regions and some of those start with those,

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Speaker 1: and you know, work your way out. They only need

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Speaker 1: a small amount of DNA. You know, they've already used

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Speaker 1: this to catch some of the other you know, cold

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Speaker 1: case killers like the Golden State killer and some of

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Speaker 1: those other people. And you know you might get nothing,

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Speaker 1: but why not, why not look at it? There's there's

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Speaker 1: nothing to learn exactly, Monty time Stories with me, Grace.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Monty Miller joining us from he's the director of

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Speaker 1: Forensic DNA Experts LLC. Doctor Monty. Maybe it'll be a

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Speaker 1: big flought. Maybe we won't get anything, but what if

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Speaker 1: we do. Can I ask you about the tiny speck

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Speaker 1: of male DNA that was found at the scene that

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Speaker 1: really doesn't match up to anyone. The underwear that John

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Speaker 1: Benay was wearing when her body was found did not

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Speaker 1: fit her. I understand it was several sizes too big,

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Speaker 1: as if someone had bought it and then realized wrong

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Speaker 1: size and just kept it for later. She was wearing

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Speaker 1: the wrong size underwear and there was a speck of

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Speaker 1: male DNA on it. As my understanding, Could mail DNA

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Speaker 1: get on packaged underwear in the manufacturing facility, Well, it's possible.

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Speaker 1: I mean they'd had that problem and come up with

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Speaker 1: swabs that they've used it a crane scene where you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it was in Britain where somebody came up

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Speaker 1: and they thought it was a serial killer, and later

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Speaker 1: they found out it was somebody at the swab factory's DNA. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So that certainly can and does happen, but it's pretty uncommon.

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Speaker 1: Most of the manufacturing, you know, nobody touches anything. But

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Speaker 1: you know it doesn't always happen. You know, they have

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Speaker 1: the people that take things out to check it, to

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Speaker 1: make sure the packaging is right, to inspect the things,

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Speaker 1: and so some things do get touched, some things do

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Speaker 1: get handled, but most of that would be gone if

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Speaker 1: it were washed. Yeah, I don't know if these underwear

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Speaker 1: were straight out of the package or if they had

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Speaker 1: been washed, which is a really good point. Had they

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Speaker 1: been washed or were they straight out of the package?

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Speaker 1: And where was that package? Was it upstairs in John

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Speaker 1: and A Ramsey's underwear drawer where you may put stuff

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Speaker 1: until you're going to wear it, put new underwear or

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Speaker 1: socks until you wear them. Those are answers that we

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Speaker 1: don't have. But I agree with you, doctor Monty Miller,

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Speaker 1: that I would feel more convinced my DNA found on

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Speaker 1: her body or on her person around her a vagina

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Speaker 1: or anus. I would feel more comfortable with DNA that

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Speaker 1: was on the rope that was used to bind her.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that for a moment. I assume that's

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Speaker 1: part of the two hundred and fifty items that could

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Speaker 1: be tested. The rope. Why is that significant the rope

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Speaker 1: to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Well, the real reason that

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Speaker 1: they want to use the rope is because the person

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Speaker 1: who would have tied her up would have come into

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Speaker 1: contact with that and there'd be good friction and pressure

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Speaker 1: and there might very well be some good skin cells

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Speaker 1: on there. You really should only find her and whoever's

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Speaker 1: been in the contact with that rope. So if the

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Speaker 1: rope is new, then you're able to get some good

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Speaker 1: DNA from the places where the knots were tied. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: because with rope, if you're tying a rope asie, when

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Speaker 1: you make then and pull it, your epiphilial skin cells

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Speaker 1: are getting on that rope. And as doctor Monte Miller

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Speaker 1: just pointed out, if it's new rope, then it's going

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Speaker 1: to be only your DNA on there. Most likely, guys,

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Speaker 1: you were just hearing that nine one one call. Now

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friensy KPRC. It is the

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Speaker 1: ransom note that has been analyzed millions of times over

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Speaker 1: the past twenty years since the murder of the child

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Speaker 1: Beauty Queen still and arrest has never been made. We

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Speaker 1: went to handwriting analyst Alice Weiser. She analyzed the Jean

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Speaker 1: Benet Ramsey ransom note and was a contributor to Court

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Speaker 1: TV twenty years ago. She did a comparison to Patsy

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Speaker 1: Ramsey's handwriting prior to the murder and the ransom note. I,

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Speaker 1: of course cannot say by looking at this as she

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Speaker 1: absolutely did it, but we found fifty five commonalities between

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Speaker 1: her writing and the ransom note. D in her handwriting

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Speaker 1: prior to this matches perfectly the D in the ransom note.

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Speaker 1: The way it curves and goes around the S is

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Speaker 1: exactly the same, she says. The M is also the same.

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Speaker 1: I would have to look at this note and say,

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Speaker 1: I feel quite positive in feeling that the note was

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Speaker 1: written by Patsy Ramsay. Let's talk about DNA on the

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Speaker 1: ransom note that I'll circle back to Sarah Ford and

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. What about the possibility of epiphilial cells

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Speaker 1: skin cells on the note? Is it too late? And remember,

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Speaker 1: cops are telling us that nearly one thousand items have

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Speaker 1: already been DNA tested. Wait a minute, does that mean

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Speaker 1: with the latest technology? And if they were to say what,

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Speaker 1: we've used up the DNA and the testing, what about

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Speaker 1: the possibility of replicating or regenerating that DNA When we

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Speaker 1: think of a way, like you cut your fingernail, Well,

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Speaker 1: two weeks later, your fingernail has grown back. There is

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Speaker 1: a way to replicate in the lab certain DNA DNA

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Speaker 1: that you may use up while you're testing it, but

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Speaker 1: it can also be replicated before the testing, so you

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Speaker 1: have enough, not every time, but sometimes. What about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of DNA Joseph Scott Morgan joining us DNA off

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Speaker 1: the ransom note? And if it's already been tested, could

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Speaker 1: it be retested with newer technology? Yeah, I'm supposing that

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Speaker 1: if they were able to maintain the sample. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know the time for being pristine as long

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Speaker 1: since passed. And here's another issue, Nancy, in this case,

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Speaker 1: we have to remember when when the call went out.

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Speaker 1: When the call went out, this is being treated like

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Speaker 1: a kidnapping, right, You had a couple of uniform cops

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Speaker 1: that showed up here. Also, how many people traps through

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Speaker 1: that house during that period of time, completely unprofessional and

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Speaker 1: you've got Patsy proclaiming on the call, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, there's a note. There's a note. Well,

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Speaker 1: how many people, over the course of them looking for

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Speaker 1: her handled this note. I mean, it's the most glaring

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence, and it's the one thing that multiple

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Speaker 1: people would have had access to. You know, you got

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Speaker 1: friends coming up, remember it was like Christmas time. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's people in there, and you've got Christmas decorations up there,

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Speaker 1: serving coffee or whatever it is, and you've got all

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Speaker 1: these people that are kind of orbiting this area, and

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Speaker 1: that for me is kind of troubling playing Devil's advocate

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Speaker 1: to that. I would expect Patsy to have picked up

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Speaker 1: the ransom note, and maybe even her husband, maybe the

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Speaker 1: cop on the scene, And because it was so unprofessionally handled,

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Speaker 1: the cop may not have had on gloves, or maybe

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Speaker 1: they did, I don't know, But because of that, I

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Speaker 1: would totally expect for Patsy's DNA to be on that

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Speaker 1: piece of paper. But what would be interesting is if

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Speaker 1: nobody else's DNA was on that piece of paper or

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Speaker 1: on the pen that was found let's talk about handwriting analysis.

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Speaker 1: This case put handwriting analysis under the spotlight. I was

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Speaker 1: fortunate enough to have tried handwriting analysis cases and to

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Speaker 1: use Sarah Ford, the legal director the sc victim's assistant network. Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Handwriting analysis, in my mind has become a science, less

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Speaker 1: of an art and more of a science. I mean,

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Speaker 1: having you ever looked at something went oh, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: my husband's handwriting or that's my daughter's handwriting. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's even to the untrained eye, it is very often

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Speaker 1: easy to determine, much less when every loop and whirl

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Speaker 1: is carefully studied under a microscope. Now, my first handwriting

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Speaker 1: analysis case was of a bank robbery with the bank

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Speaker 1: bring note. Lucky for me, the bank robber was dyslexic,

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Speaker 1: so every time he did his handwriting analysis, he was

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Speaker 1: also flipping letters and writing. He also had a very

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Speaker 1: vague familiarity with punctuation, so it said dope, exclamation, touched period,

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Speaker 1: the aloram reversing the letters alarm, comma, this comma is comma,

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Speaker 1: a comma comma robie another misspelling. So when he did

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Speaker 1: his handwriting analysis for the Georgia State Crime Lab, he

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Speaker 1: did very much the same thing, injected a necessary punctuation

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Speaker 1: everywhere and reverse letters, so I didn't have to worry

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Speaker 1: about how he crossed his tea or dotted his eye.

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Speaker 1: It was really apparent. What do you make of handwriting analysis?

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Speaker 1: Because other experts said this was not Patsy Ramsey's handwriting.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone going to have a probably a different

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Speaker 1: viewpoint on this. You know, expert witness. You know, a

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Speaker 1: jury would be able to determine their credibility and their analysis,

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Speaker 1: and they would testify to that. But I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: I've tried those cases too. I've actually had my handwriting analyzed,

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Speaker 1: and you can try to trip them up, you can

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Speaker 1: try to do different things. We even have someone else

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Speaker 1: write something and they are good. It is not it

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Speaker 1: is a science. They're really good, you know too. And

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Speaker 1: everybody on the panel, as I am forced to remind you,

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Speaker 1: this ain't tea at high grow with the queen jump in.

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Speaker 1: This is not just a textbook analysis of DNA or handwriting.

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Speaker 1: This is a little girl whose case has never been resolved.

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Speaker 1: Someone sex assault at her and murdered her, and no

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Speaker 1: one has ever been brought to justice. And let me

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Speaker 1: be clear, as I said on day one, doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: based on stats and just knowing what I do know

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Speaker 1: of Burke. Never did I ever believe it was Burke.

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Speaker 1: And people that are grasping in that straw have been

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Speaker 1: wrong from the get go, as has been proven in court. Also,

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Speaker 1: as I mentioned, because of her Hyman alone being intact,

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Speaker 1: that tells me an adult male most likely did not

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Speaker 1: molest her, and in my mind that rules out the father.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that in my mind rules out the father

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Speaker 1: John Ramsey, is that in the ransom note, the ransom

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Speaker 1: was his exact the exact amount of his bonus that

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Speaker 1: year under an eighteen thousand dollars. What idiot would point

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Speaker 1: to finger and himself by putting in his bonus amount

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Speaker 1: or Subic Bay Training Center where he trained. No, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it was him for many reasons. So in

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Speaker 1: my mind, circumstantial evidence rules those two out. But can

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Speaker 1: you imagine doctor Athony Marshall is joining us high profile

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Speaker 1: psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot

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Speaker 1: com and she's a star of a Netflix show, Bling Empire,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, can you imagine what John Ramsey is going through?

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Speaker 1: It's already lost one daughter. I believe his older daughter

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Speaker 1: died in a car crash. One older daughter passed away.

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Speaker 1: He's lost John Benet, his wife Patsy has passed on.

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Speaker 1: His son, fought a valiant fight in court to stop

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Speaker 1: people saying that he committed the crime. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: guy has been through a lot and now he can't

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Speaker 1: get in the DNA tested. Can you imagine the hell

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Speaker 1: he's going through. I cannot imagine the hell. And just

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Speaker 1: just logically, he and Blake bulld are pushing for this

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Speaker 1: DNA to be released. If they were guilty, they would

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Speaker 1: not be pushing for the DNA to be released absoor

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Speaker 1: waiting a valiant fight. Did you see the picture of

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Speaker 1: a Bony Ramsey's father at crime con He was sitting

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Speaker 1: next to his daughter's picture, the pictures blown up and

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Speaker 1: he looked so old and dejected and really all by himself.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think of when this crime happened, he

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Speaker 1: had his daughter, his wife, his son and people in

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Speaker 1: the house who was a Christmas party, a household full

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Speaker 1: of life, and then one by one, after losing Joan

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Speaker 1: Bany Ramsey, he's lost other family members. And sometimes we

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Speaker 1: see this when there is one bad happening in a

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Speaker 1: person's life. It causes a negative cascading effect of similar

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Speaker 1: events where they keep having accidents, they're losing people or

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Speaker 1: losing their jobs. You know, it's as if they go

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Speaker 1: into a depression or some kind of downboard spiral. And

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Speaker 1: this is the opportunity to pull him out of that,

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Speaker 1: to give him some clarity. But Nancy, you know people

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Speaker 1: are anti science. He's anti science. I'm not anti science.

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Speaker 1: Love science. Why are you saying that you love science?

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Speaker 1: Every everybody on the panel of science. But this is

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Speaker 1: a very scientific inquiry. It is to get the DNA

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Speaker 1: and to analyze it using new techniques. What if you

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Speaker 1: have old detectives, old people on the police force who

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Speaker 1: have been, you know, covering this case, working on it,

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Speaker 1: trying to crack a cold case, and they like the

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Speaker 1: old methods. You know what, you have a very good point.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that you said, Remember how forgive me

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Speaker 1: everybody for using him. But he's just basically a buffet

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Speaker 1: of examples of pot pourri of bad acting. Scott Peterson,

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Speaker 1: remember how he would not speak at the candlelight vigil

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Speaker 1: for his wife Lacy and his unborn science Connor because

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Speaker 1: he was too busy in the back talking to his

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Speaker 1: mistress on the phone. I find it very hard to

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Speaker 1: let me say, jive to reconcile. If John Ramsey murdered

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Speaker 1: his daughter, why would he be the one pushing for

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Speaker 1: DNA for new DNA testing. And so I agree with

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Speaker 1: you on that. And also the old phrase you can't

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Speaker 1: teach an old dog a new trick, you know, not

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Speaker 1: suggesting in any way that you're let's just say a

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Speaker 1: silver fox, just Scot morgam. But I've seen that before

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Speaker 1: where nobody wants to try anything new, would you say?

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Speaker 1: And then I'll follow up with doctor Monty Miller that

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Speaker 1: if this DNA is released by police, that the killer

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Speaker 1: could be identified in a matter of hours. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about a matter of hours. It takes time. The headlines,

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Speaker 1: that's my question. Well, yeah, and you know whoever wrote

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Speaker 1: those headlines may not know anything about yeah exactly. But

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Speaker 1: it is a process, and right now it seems as

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Speaker 1: though that they've got the best shot that they've that

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Speaker 1: they've ever had. What I hear what you're saying. In

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Speaker 1: order to make that come true, you would have to

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Speaker 1: have the known you have to have the known DNA

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Speaker 1: off John Benet's body or an article at the crime scene,

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Speaker 1: and you'd have to know who to compare it too. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but if you have those two variables A plus B,

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Speaker 1: you should be able to get C relatively quickly. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would have said relatively quickly. But I would use

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Speaker 1: caution in doing this. We've waited this long. If the

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Speaker 1: killer's profile is already in the system. Yeah, if the

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Speaker 1: killer's profile is already in the system in some kind

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Speaker 1: of particularly some kind of genealogical database, which I would

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Speaker 1: assume is what they're driving at here, unless you've got

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Speaker 1: some kind of predator that's out there in some kind

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Speaker 1: of database that exists already in that in that context,

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Speaker 1: what about it, Doctor Monty Miller, Well, I think yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, certainly, if he's in the CODIS database, they

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Speaker 1: would have already founding if they had the DNA. The

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Speaker 1: geneological database is the best way to go. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: we've waited this long. It really is a matter of days,

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Speaker 1: though it isn't going to be months or years or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. So you know, you got two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty six samples or whatever it is, so you

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Speaker 1: need to run them, you know, just run a few

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Speaker 1: and see what you get, then run a few more.

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Speaker 1: You can add these into that genealogical database, and you

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Speaker 1: know you're liable to find at least some relatives. But

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Speaker 1: then you've got to go through that and then decide

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Speaker 1: which ones are reasonable. Let me ask you this, Audrey

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Speaker 1: Conklin joining us. She is a Fox News digital reporter

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Speaker 1: on this case, Audrey, So let me understand what's happening today.

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Speaker 1: Explain today. As I mentioned at Prime Con, at the

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Speaker 1: Crime con Convention in April, John Benet's father, John Ram,

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Speaker 1: they asked the Colorado governor to allow an independent agency

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Speaker 1: to conduct DNA testing on the materials in this case.

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Speaker 1: The same he really wants to retest certain pieces of evidence.

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Speaker 1: And there are more than two hundred and fifty in

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Speaker 1: this case for more DNA samples that could then be

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Speaker 1: processed and potentially connected to other DNA samples and databases

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Speaker 1: containing unique genetic information for thousands of individuals who may

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Speaker 1: be the suspect in this case or related to the

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Speaker 1: suspect in this case. And so they really just want

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Speaker 1: to further what police, what authorities can do to bring

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Speaker 1: up new names or keep the case relevant. Time stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us

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Speaker 1: at this hour, there is a new renewed push to

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Speaker 1: solve the murder of a beautiful, young beauty Queen John

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Speaker 1: Bena Ramsey her murder. And also at this hour, John

425
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: Benet's father, John Ramsey and half brother are petitioning the Governor,

426
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Jared Poulis to hand over DNA samples. The Boulder Police

427
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: Department has been sitting on to para bond Nano Labs

428
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: to do DNA testing in the case. Why now, Well,

429
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: it's not as if this is the first time he's asked,

430
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: this is a renewed effort. Why now, what do you

431
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: make of it, Sarah? For doctor Bethany Marshall, just Scott

432
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: Morgan and doctor Montey Miller. Why now, why the new

433
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: and renewed push. What do you think, Audrey Conklin. I

434
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: think it's because DNA technology is more advanced than it's

435
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: ever been, and they recently had this opportunity at the

436
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: Crime Convention to make themselves heard and make this renewed

437
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: push for more answers in the case, and they're really

438
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: trying to hold the Colorado government accountable and say, okay,

439
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: let's take the next step forward. Nancy, I could jump

440
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: in on this. They're for an interesting Yes'm just from

441
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: a mental health psychological perspective. There are a lot of

442
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: amateur genealogists who love to solve these crimes. And just

443
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: like we saw recently with social media, people in social

444
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: media solving crimes because they've taken pictures and videos, and

445
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, they began to move at a pace faster

446
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: than the police force, we might see a whole new

447
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: ground swell of amateur genealogists kind of weighing in and

448
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: trying to solve this crime as well, which I think

449
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: is quite interesting. I agree, Nancy, go ahead here. Yeah. Look,

450
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you you and I were both at

451
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: Crime Come this year, and when I found out that

452
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: he was on the dais where he was on the

453
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: program that is mister Ramsey, I felt like he was

454
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: going to walk into a bus saw in that place.

455
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: Because this is the first time he's been in a

456
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: forum like this. He is emboldened at this moment time.

457
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: I think he knows something. That's just my thought. He

458
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: certainly he certainly has intestinal fortitude walking into a room

459
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: with five thousand people at Cromcott. We were there, we

460
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: were there, we saw the whole thing. And I'm just thinking,

461
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: Sarah Ford, Legal director or South Carolina victim assistant, network

462
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: of a father, a parent, father or mother? Whose child?

463
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: Whose little child? And in this case it is six

464
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: year old John Bena is murdered in a brutal way

465
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: and it's never solved. And hey, maybe he is grasping

466
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: at straws, but maybe he's not. First, before you answer that,

467
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: Sarah Ford, take us an hour cut seventeen, our friend

468
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: Jim Murray. He's also demanding that the latest cutting edge

469
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: DNA technology be used to find John Benet's killer. There's

470
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: evidence sitting in acer somewhere that has never been tested

471
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: for DNA, and it could be tested. Yeah, and you

472
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: think I could solve this crime and it hasn't been done.

473
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: That's correct. Technology has advanced so far in twenty five

474
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: years that to not go back and apply the latest

475
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: technology is just foolish. I don't understand it either. Take

476
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: a listen now to our cut nineteen again, Jim Ray,

477
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: who do you think murdered your daughter? I was asked

478
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: that question earlier on I said, I don't know anybody

479
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: this evil. I don't think I've been around anybody this evil.

480
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: One investigator told John Ramsay, John Benet may have been

481
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: murdered in a personal vendetta to hurt him and his family.

482
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: You may not even know who they are. And you

483
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: know that's a tough pill to swallow. Do I believe

484
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: it's some vendetta like out of a movie? No, I

485
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 1: really don't. I think it's going to be much more

486
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: simple than that. But to doctor Sarah Ford, legal director,

487
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: South Carolina Victim Assistant Network, can you imagine a parent

488
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: seeking justice and the police won't release the evidence, and

489
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: we know that this was mishandled. My local cops at

490
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: the get go, they bungled the scene horribly. I don't

491
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: trust them now either. It's absolutely tragic, Nancy, But I

492
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: think we have to look at this that if police

493
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: are looking at this from with nineteen ninety six eyes,

494
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: we're in twenty twenty two. You know, the way we

495
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 1: look at it cases back then completely different the way

496
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: we try cases now. It's completely different. The things we know,

497
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: and so you know, there is no expiration on justice

498
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: for victims period, and whether it's been two decades, three decades,

499
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: whatever it's been, these family members have rights under Colorado

500
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: law that they are victims and they have the right

501
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: to pursue remedies under their statutes. And I think that

502
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: this family definitely needs to file a motion in court

503
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: to force the Boulder police to turn that evidence over

504
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: and also Sarah Ford. At this point, Colorado's governor announced

505
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: two will quote look into how much the state can

506
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: assist using technology. How long is he going to look

507
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: into it? Is going to finish reading the documents and

508
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: make a decision. I mean, Audrey Conklin, the governor, said

509
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: that a long time ago. Why has nothing happened? To

510
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: tell you the truth, I don't know why nothing has happened.

511
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: The Boulder Police Department has pretty consistently stated that they're

512
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: investigating ways to use DNA technology to keep testing evidence

513
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: in this crime and save processed more than fifteen hundred

514
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence. You know, they keep saying the same thing.

515
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: The governor has also said that he would look into it,

516
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: but I don't think any updates have been made since then.

517
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: And just so you know, John Ramsey has also called

518
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: for child murders to be investigated as federal crimes to

519
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: get government agencies at federal government agencies like the FBI

520
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: to get involved in cases like this from the outside.

521
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: So that's something like this doesn't happen again, you know,

522
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. When I hear a politician say they're

523
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: looking into it, that's like when they say they're appointing

524
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: a committee. Yeah, nothing's happening, Nothing is going to happen.

525
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: Nothing's happening now there They and Ramsey can't go to

526
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: the local DA because they're obviously not insisting the police

527
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: cough up the DNA to have it tested. You can't

528
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: go to the cops. They're the one the ones not

529
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: handing it over. So where I mean, what is going

530
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: through John Ramsey's mine now? I mean he's running out

531
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: of avenues. The governor said I'll look into it, but

532
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: nothing's happened. Nancy. There's always resistance to change, whether it's

533
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: a new science, whether it's a new way of looking

534
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: at a case, whether it's respecting a family that you

535
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: have disrespected historically, whether it's taking up new ways of

536
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: looking at evidence, and all of a sudden you have

537
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: to provide funding to do that for other families as well.

538
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: In government and gurocracy, change is very very slow, and

539
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: look how old is this case? I mean how many

540
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: decades now? Twenty five years old? Twenty five years old?

541
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: And the governor there, the Colorado governor agreed to review

542
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: the petition months ago, but nothing has happened. So what

543
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: if anything Sarah Ford can Ramsey do now go over

544
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: the governor's head. That would be going to the Feds.

545
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: It could be going to the Feds. It could be

546
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: going to the Colorado Supreme Court and asking for this

547
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: evidence to be tested. I mean, this is reliable, space

548
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: and proven technology that they're not handing over. And if

549
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: they're not going to do anything about it, whether it's

550
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: the DA or the police, that I think that this

551
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: family has a right to ask for that and ask

552
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: for it formerly in court and make the court decide

553
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: to doctor Monte Miller, what breakthrough technology could be used

554
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: all these items that hasn't already been used? Well, I

555
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: mean it's it's really using the same technology because their

556
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: technology is just it's the same, only it's just gotten

557
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: a little more robust. We're doing it a little better.

558
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: You can get DNA samples results from a smaller amount

559
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: of DNA. When you get results, oftentimes you get more markers,

560
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: so you get more information and so um, it's not

561
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: so much different. It's different from ninety six, but probably

562
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: in the last ten or fifteen years, it hasn't changed

563
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: a lot as far as the technology. It's just it's

564
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: gotten better. Like our cars, you know, have gotten better

565
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: since the fifties, you know, the technology here has gotten better,

566
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: though it's very, very similar. But you know, I'd like

567
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: to weigh in and in the fact that I think

568
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: they should call, you know, a lawyer and get that

569
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: before the court and get a court order to order

570
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: them to allow them to do whatever testing that they can.

571
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: And to you, Jessica Morgan, isn't it true that there

572
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 1: are labs that exist now that specialize, specialize and compromised

573
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: DNA such as muddy DNA, old DNA, very little DNA,

574
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: dirty DNA, DNA that has been under the water. There

575
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: are labs that specialized and compromise DNA that didn't exist

576
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: a long time ago. I just don't see the hold up.

577
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: I guess he's going to have to go to the fans.

578
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: He's either have to go to the Colorado Supreme Court

579
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: or he's going to have to jump over them to

580
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: the Federal District Court. There in Colorado and go into

581
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: the federal system. A. Yeah, And I think that one

582
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: of the one of the things here is that they're

583
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: thinking about private labs and the state. I think it

584
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: is going to be hesitant in that area where you

585
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: can form this out to a private lab that has

586
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: perhaps better access to better technology, and they don't want

587
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: to take their hands off of this. That's the only

588
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: thing I can think of, you know, why not roll

589
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: the dice at this point. It's just like you said

590
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: just a second ago, Nancy, we're twenty five years down range.

591
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: Now twenty five years and still no closer. You know what,

592
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: I agree, Joe Scott Morgan. If the state crime Lab

593
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: doesn't have the capability, just send it to a private

594
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: lab and get it done. We wait God willing for

595
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: justice to unfold. Nancy Grace crimes Tooy, signing off, goodbye friend,