1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Just a quick disclaimer before we get started. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Today's episode deals with topics of depression and suicide, so 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: please use discretion today and if this is a subject 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: matter you're not fully comfortable with, we recommend you maybe 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: give today's episode a skip. Lastly, if you or someone 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideations, please 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: two seven three eight two five five. Thanks for listening. 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: for everyone listener. Discretion is advised. 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I'm Evete Gentile and I'm. 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 3: Her baby sister, Roschia Pecuerero, and with us, as always, 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 3: is our amazing producer Trevor Young. 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Howdy, Howdy, what's up? 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 3: Trevor? I love it when that texting comes out. 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Howdies and y'alls all around. 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 3: Howdi's and y'alls. I love it well, Trevor, Andyvette. I 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 3: really wanted to reach out to the two of you 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: today and to our listeners because you know, Yvett and 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 3: I have been fortunate to do a lot of press 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 3: over the last few weeks, and one particular person asked 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: us a question that I think is so important for 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: the three of us and for our listeners, and she said, 29 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: what do you do for self care when you're not 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 3: doing facing evil, when you're not talking about these crimes 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: and these these horrible things that are happening. So like 32 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: for me, I loved that question because it made me 33 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 3: kind of stop and I was like, oh, like a 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: couple things. One, I'm very thankful to be in therapy, 35 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 3: you know, because mental health is health. And my therapist 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: she actually ended up sadly, she passed away not too 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 3: long ago, unexpectedly. And I have a new one and 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: I had already started seeing her. But that therapist, her 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: name was Karen, and she told me, every day, you know, 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 3: set a reminder on your phone and it literally says 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: Rasha practiced mindfulness for the day. And she's like, I 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: don't care if you say one good word to yourself, 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: or if you go and take a hot bath, because 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: she knew I loved hot baths, and so that's my 45 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 3: one thing that I can do for myself every day. 46 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: But I want to know. I want to know, Yvette, 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 3: what do you do for self care? And then I 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: want to know what you do, Trevor. 49 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: Gosh, there's so many things that I do, But for me, 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: it's really about getting outside and taking in the fresh air, 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: you know, putting on my running shoes. You know, that's 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: really therapy for me, and just I don't have to 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: type in a password, you know, to go to my 54 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: yoga to the gym. It's just putting on those shoes 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: and getting outside and just letting whatever is bothering me 56 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: or you know, exciting me, just let it all resonate 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: and take off running. That is kind of my go 58 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: to right now. As well as you know, I have 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: a little ritual that I do every morning where I 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: like incense to bring on the new day and to 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: be divinely blessed and protected, you know, as our mother 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: would always say. So those are a few of the 63 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: things that I do. Trevor, what about you? 64 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: It's interesting and I think it's probably a very good 65 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: question for this episode. For me, I think I learned 66 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: a long time ago that the best thing I can 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: do for myself is have a healthy and regular inner 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: dialogue that's constantly running. So I'm constantly talking to myself, 69 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: you know. I think that's one of the great things 70 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: about something like therapy is you're just working through things 71 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: with somebody, right, Like you're kind of playing chess with somebody, 72 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: but like chess for your brain. And so what I've 73 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: always sought to do is kind of be playing chess 74 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: with myself all the time, you know. So if I'm 75 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: feeling something, or if i'm you know, just have something 76 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: on my mind, I just always talk to myself. I'm like, so, 77 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: why am I feeling this way? You know, Oh, maybe 78 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: it's because you were you know this or that, or 79 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: you had gone through this the day before. And I'm like, hm, 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: that's interesting, and that makes me think back to when 81 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: I had this experience, you know. So I'm just always 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of working through things in my head. It's not 83 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: always possible, especially if you're really tired or stressed out, 84 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: It's true, so you know, when you can, and I 85 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: always try and set situations up for that sort of thing. 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: So I do I do that best, probably like on drives, walks, 87 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, bus rides, whatever it is. And that kind 88 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: of keeps me objective, keeps me aware of where I'm 89 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: at and how I'm feeling, and kind of helps me 90 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: pros us a lot. 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 3: And I think all of that self care is really 92 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 3: amazing to think about and talk about. And like you said, Trevor, 93 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: I think it's great for today's case, and I would 94 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: be honored if you could actually take us through it. 95 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: My son was my best friend through the height of 96 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: his depression. I was biaside trying to build the spirits 97 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: and to affect his behavior positively. 98 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: She just thought she was an acquaintance of Conrade's nothing more. 99 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 4: At the heart of this closely watched case, her text 100 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 4: messages and phone calls encouraging him to commit suicide, and 101 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: the debate over whether words can kill. Many questioning whether 102 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 4: Michelle Carter should have ever been charged in the death 103 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 4: of her boyfriend, given that no other Internet case has 104 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 4: resulted in a homicide conviction, and now big questions about 105 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 4: that light sentence she got that seemed to stun the 106 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 4: victim's family. 107 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: Conrad Roy was an eighteen year old from Massachusetts who 108 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: died by suicide in twenty fourteen. He had just graduated 109 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: from high school and was getting ready to attend college, 110 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: but Conrad had struggled with depression and suicidal ideations for years, 111 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: having attempted suicide two years earlier, and then on July thirteenth, 112 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, Conrad was found in his truck dead of 113 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: carbon monoxide asphyxiation in an apparent suicide. The family soon 114 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: learned that leading up to his death, Conrad had been 115 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: texting with a girl named Michelle Carter. When police searched 116 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: his phone, they discovered hundreds of text messages from Michelle 117 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: urging Conrad to take his own life. The following year, 118 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: Carter was indicted for manslaughter. The case and the trial 119 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: became highly publicized as one of the first cases to 120 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: ask was someone criminally responsible for encouraging someone else to 121 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: kill themselves? And since then there have been numerous documentaries 122 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: and even a fictionalized television show about the case and 123 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: so what really led to Conrad Roy's death, to what 124 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: degree was Michelle Carter responsible? And what does this case 125 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: tell us about the mental health needs of youth in 126 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: the age of technology and social media. 127 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: I know, Trevor, I remember when this happened, and to 128 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: be honest, I looked at it from two different perspectives. 129 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: One my daughter was very young at the time that 130 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 3: this happened, and you know, we didn't have social media 131 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: when you've met and Ira kids, and I think you 132 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: did have it a little bit, Trevor. But I think 133 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: what was so shocking to me is like, could his girlfriend? 134 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: Could Conrad Roy's girlfriend have actually caused this? Was she 135 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: the reason he finally decided to do it? And I 136 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: do want to be a little sensitive to you know, 137 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: people who have had, you know, suicidal ideations or thoughts 138 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 3: of suicide. I am not one of those people, no 139 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 3: matter how bad it's gotten for me. I've just never 140 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: been in that dark of a place, thankfully. But I 141 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: asked my wife before doing this episode if I could 142 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: share a little bit of her journey because when this happened. 143 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: Of course, I always think about her right and I 144 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: know her history, and she's been very open about dealing 145 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: with depression every day, and she herself has attempted suicide 146 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: a couple of times in her lifetime before we met, 147 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: and you know, before I met her, I think I 148 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: always thought that someone always has a choice, right, Like 149 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 3: they can always choose to not do it. But sometimes 150 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: maybe they just don't have that choice. Maybe it is medical, 151 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: maybe it is chemical, And like mental health is so 152 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 3: so so so important. 153 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: It is, and it's so important, and it's so different 154 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 2: for everybody. And I think that's what we're realizing, especially 155 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: you know, with this story that we're about to tell. 156 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: You know, I can't even imagine, you know, how Conrad's 157 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: family felt when, you know, they discovered these thousands and 158 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: thousands of texts from this girl that they don't even know. Yeah, like, 159 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: how could this and why did this happen? 160 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's something we're going to obviously talk about today, 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: but I will just say, this is really the time 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: period in someone's life that is the most sensitive, probably right, right, 163 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: that's not true for everybody, but like being a teenager, 164 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: being an adolescence is very emotionally difficult. And the fact is, 165 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: Conrad Roy was indeed part of a bigger, though regrettable trend. 166 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: And the data does actually show that teenage boys are 167 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: more likely to die by suicide than girls, which is 168 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: something to consider that maybe not everybody knows. 169 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's so true. And there's a another trend 170 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: too that I learned about while researching for this episode, 171 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: and rates of teen suicide and mental illness have actually 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 3: increased in recent decades. And one report showed that the 173 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 3: suicide death rate among people between the ages of ten 174 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 3: and twenty four increased fifty six percent between the years 175 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 3: two thousand and seven and twenty seventeen. 176 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: God, I believe that that is an alarming, alarming number. 177 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: I mean, why do we think this is happening, and 178 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: especially to teens? What do you guys think? 179 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: I mean, it's there. 180 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: Are like a lot of things that experts have looked at, 181 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: and there's like plenty to pick from, especially in today's 182 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: day and age. Right, Okay, So one big factor that 183 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: we can look at is economic stress. If you remember 184 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, which is right at the start 185 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: of those numbers you mentioned Russia, there was a huge 186 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: recession that had a massive impact on a lot of families, 187 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: especially kids, including my own. And not only that, but 188 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: there's the fact that social media started popping up around 189 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: that time, and I do think social media has had 190 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: a huge negative impact on the emotional development of a 191 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: lot of kids, a lot of teens. You know, I 192 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: had MySpace and middle. 193 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: School good on my Space. 194 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I think, like Facebook was just starting 195 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: to be a thing when I graduated high school. Nowadays 196 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: it feels like everybody has their own phone, Like all 197 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: the teenagers have TikTok. And I know for a fact 198 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: that you know, the sort of imagery and the sort 199 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: of you know, expectations for what your life should be 200 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: like through something like TikTok is like not super healthy. 201 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty toxic. So all this to say, 202 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: I think social media and phones not healthy for kids, 203 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: and I think the numbers reflect that. 204 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: Agreed one hundred percent. You know, I have, as we know, 205 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 2: I have a love hate relationship with with social media. 206 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: Russia is the one who introduced me to my Space, 207 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: and I think mom is the one who introduced me 208 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: to Facebook. Like I had no clue, you know. But 209 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: I agree with you, and I think this is something 210 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 2: that we can see in the story of Conrad Roy, 211 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: you know, dealing with this social media. So Trevor, with 212 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: that being said, can you please shed light on Conrad 213 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: Roy's story. 214 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Conrad was born on September twelfth, nineteen ninety five, 215 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: in Mattapoisett, Massachusetts. To all you New Englanders, I'm sorry 216 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: if I butcher that Conrad worked with his family's marine 217 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: salvaging business, and after high school he got his own 218 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: captain's license from the Northeast Maritime Institute, which is very impressive. 219 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: Very he was super intelligent at a super high GPA 220 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: in high school. But Conrad did deal with a ton 221 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: of issues growing up, of course, not limited to depression 222 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: and anxiety, he allegedly also dealt with abuse from his 223 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: father and grandfather, and then when his parents divorced in 224 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, Conrad did attempt suicide. Luckily, on that occasion 225 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: he was unsuccessful. 226 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 2: I can totally relate to this because divorce. When you 227 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: talk about divorce, and I remember when you know, my 228 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: parents divorced, how devastating that can be on kids, you know, 229 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 2: having to go through a messy divorce, you know, with 230 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: their parents and they're seeing all of that. So I'm 231 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: sure you know, Conrad had a lot more going on 232 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: than even his parents knew about at that time, because 233 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: they were probably going through, you know, their own things obviously, 234 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: But this is about the time that Conrad actually met Michelle, 235 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: and this is back in twenty twelve. 236 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting how this kind of lines up. But 237 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: both Conrad's family and Michelle Carter's family happened to be 238 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: in vacation in Florida at the same time in twenty 239 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: twelve from Massachusetts though, so the two of them met, 240 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: their families, kind of found each other, and they started 241 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: texting and messaging each other Conrad and Michelle. 242 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: Did I know Michelle also dealt with mental health struggles, 243 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: like just like Conrad did, so of course, I'm sure 244 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: they had a lot in common. And she also was 245 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: on Selexa for anxiety and depression, so you know, again, 246 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: they probably cemented a bond during this time, talking about 247 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: all of the things that both of them are going. 248 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: Through, and I think all the things that teenagers talk about, right, yeah, yeah, 249 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: and they were bonding over something that they both were 250 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: openly going through. And it's during this time that, of course, 251 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: they proclaimed their love for one another. You know, I 252 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: remember we had beepers back in the day, you know, 253 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: like I think my hyders. Yeah, my high school sweetheart 254 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: would text me no I'm seeing I'm even saying text 255 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: would beep me the numbers one four to three, which 256 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: meant I love you, you know, So I'm like, oh, 257 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: you know they said one four to three, that means 258 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: they love me. So I think that was kind of 259 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: what Michelle and Conrad we're going through at the time. 260 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: And I think they only met in person a handful 261 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 3: of times, right, I think like five times they only met, right, I. 262 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: Mean somehow though they only lived about an hour away 263 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: from each other there in Massachusetts, and sometimes they'd like 264 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: make plans to meet up, but it never seemed to 265 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: really work out. I guess when you are maybe a 266 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: little far away, it's hard. But they claim to have 267 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: had a really strong connection over technology over phones. But yeah, 268 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: I mean there was basically little to no face to 269 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: face interaction between these two. Most of it was online, 270 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: and that's where the spark seemed to be. Michelle herself. 271 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: I know you talked a little bit about her mental 272 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: health struggles, but you know, at least in school, she 273 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: was very liked and very popular. Her classmates voted her 274 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: most likely to brighten your day, and maybe that sort 275 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: of extroverted personality is what attracted Conrad. She also, as 276 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: you alluded to, had been dealing with mental health problems 277 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: since I think she was like eight or nine, so 278 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: I read that she had had an eating disorder when 279 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: she was yeah, very very young, and had been put 280 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: on various forms of medication, like before middle school, which 281 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: is wild very. 282 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: Very very young age. 283 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: So I mean, with everything you just said, it just 284 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: makes sense that, of course they probably mostly talked about, 285 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: you know, stuff like this, like suicide. Right, And she 286 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: allegedly actually says that at one time she talked him down. 287 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: I should say a number of times she talked him 288 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: down from his suicide attempts. And this is over the 289 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: course of you know, two years or so, right. 290 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and in fact, a month before he actually did 291 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: take his own life, she writes to him, and I'm 292 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: going to be quoting a lot of different texts over 293 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: the course of this episode, but here's one. She said, 294 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 3: quote you need professional help like me. End quote. But 295 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: then that changes. On July twelfth of twenty fourteen, the 296 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 3: day before he was found dead, she sent this really 297 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 3: chilling message at four nineteen in the morning. She writes, quote, 298 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: you can't think about it. You just have to do it. 299 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 3: You said you were going to do it, Like I 300 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: don't get why you aren't end quote, and he writes back, quote, 301 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 3: I don't get it either. I don't know end quote. 302 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: Oh god, it just breaks my heart. 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 3: I would be like, don't do it, right. 304 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: I Mean that's the weird part, right, That's what makes 305 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: this casee weird, is that she seems to be really 306 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: egging im on, well, like supportive at first, but like 307 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: there's this weird turn that happens where she's like, all 308 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: of a sudden, like, eh, just just do it right, 309 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: just get it over with, Like she's kind of like 310 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: frustrated that he's. 311 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 3: Not actually going through with it. 312 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, like going through with it. And that's like the 313 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: kind of like nugget of evil that people seem to 314 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: kind of latch onto. When we talk about this case, 315 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: it is like what would drive someone to do that thing? 316 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: Or and why was there a turn? 317 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: Right? Why did she flip? Right? Yeah? 318 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: Because he was clearly hesitating, right, he was not fully 319 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: sure about this thing. But it's it's clear that she's 320 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: at least like pushing on him by this point. 321 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: And apparently he's sort of anxiously texting all day and 322 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: his family does notice this, and his sister Camden actually 323 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 3: told reporters that at the time, she didn't know who 324 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: he was texting with, but in fact he was texting 325 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: with Michelle Carter and the two were going back and 326 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 3: forth about his plans to kill himself later that day, 327 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 3: and he wrote to her that he was worried about 328 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: leaving his family behind. He really loved his family, and 329 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: he wrote, quote like I want them to know that 330 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: I love them end quote. Michelle's re response was quote, 331 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 3: they know. That's one thing. They definitely know. End quote, 332 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 3: And earlier she'd texted, quote, everyone will be sad for 333 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: a while, but they will get over it and move 334 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: on end quote. Gosh, like it's so sad. And then 335 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 3: around six o'clock that evening, Conrad drove off in his truck, 336 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: saying he was going to see a friend and that 337 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 3: was the last time his family would ever see him alive. 338 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: We do need to take a quick break, but we'll 339 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: keep moving with the story when we come back. 340 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: So it wasn't like Conrad Roy to disappear for very long. 341 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 3: He'd driven off in his truck late the afternoon of 342 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: July twelfth, and his family had no clue where he was. 343 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 3: His mother, of course, became concerned and texted him in 344 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 3: the middle of the night, but received no response. Still, 345 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 3: she was assuming that everything was okay. She knew about 346 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: his struggles with depression, and she truly believed that he 347 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 3: would overcome it. 348 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: Then something odd happened. Late that night, Conrad's sister, Camden, 349 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: received the text from Michelle Carter. To Camden, Michelle was 350 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: just this random friend of Conrad's who lived somewhere else. 351 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: So his sister really had no idea the connection that 352 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: these two had. She didn't know that they were supposedly 353 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: boyfriend and girlfriend. She just knew that they had met 354 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: right on vacation. 355 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I know what he did. Yeah. 356 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 3: And in talking about this to a reporter, Camden said 357 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: that she thought her brother and Michelle were just friends. 358 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 3: But in this message, Michelle tells Camden, quote, we're boyfriend 359 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: and girlfriend now end quote, and then she asks, quote 360 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 3: do you know where your brother is? End quote? 361 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: Oh, this right here is like my first thought is like, 362 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 2: this is sick. Yeah, because she knows where her brother 363 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: is and for her to say that that is disturbing. 364 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: It also makes me think of a sociopath. 365 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? 366 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 2: Like that, it doesn't quiet add up. 367 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: It's also weird that she would make this declaration that 368 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: their boyfriend and girlfriend. Now, I mean, if you're assuming 369 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: that Conrad has taken his own life by this point, like, 370 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: why are you, I don't know, suggesting that you are 371 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: like together and dating. 372 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: It's just like she wants to feel seen and feel 373 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: important in this horrific time. 374 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: I think like she's in control of the situation somehow. Anyhow, 375 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: so the next day the family does go searching for Conrad, 376 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: and at one point his mother gets the sort of 377 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: what she describes as a rush through her body and 378 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: she kind of senses spiritually that her son is gone. 379 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: And it turns out that he is, and they find 380 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: him in his truck in a remote corner of a 381 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: kmart parking a lot. So he had turned on a 382 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 1: gas powered water pump in his truck and let the 383 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: cabin fill up with carbon monoxide and he died of asphyxiation. 384 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and meanwhile, Michelle Carter's weird behavior intensifies. She ends 385 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: up showing up at the funeral a few days later 386 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 3: and apparently makes a little bit of a scene. 387 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. A friend of Conrad says, Michelle seemed to be 388 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: acting out the role of a grieving widow. It's almost 389 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 2: like like she was obsessed with Glee and the characters 390 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: on Glee. It likes it seemed like a performance, right, right. 391 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: But the family then discovers she's been also organizing this 392 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: charity event in Conrad Roy's name, and the family has 393 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: no idea. 394 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Michelle presents herself as this anti suicide advocate 395 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 3: and she did set up this memorial. It was actually 396 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 3: a memorial softball game in his memory. And all of 397 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 3: this just strikes the family as odd. One they didn't 398 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 3: even know who she was, and I watched a documentary 399 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 3: all about it. She set it up in her hometown 400 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: rather than in Conrad's. 401 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's weird. I wonder like how she sees herself. 402 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: That's like the one thing I can never really get 403 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: a good grasp on. The more I read about this 404 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: and you know, watch videos. Does she actually see herself 405 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: as an anti suicide advocate? Does she actually think that 406 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: she's like a positive force making a difference in the 407 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: field of mental health or is this all like this 408 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: really kind of like messed up, you know, power trip 409 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: facade thing. And I really don't know, but you know, 410 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: it's either one she's like an evil person, or two 411 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: she's like delusional. Those are like the only two options 412 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: I can see here. 413 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: You know, I think it's both, Trevor, I would have 414 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: to say, I mean, just in my opinion, you know, like, yes, 415 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 2: she is delusional and at the same time, what she's 416 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 2: doing is evil. 417 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 3: I would like to jump in as a devil's advocate 418 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: for a moment, only because I know what I was 419 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: like at seventeen, you know what I mean, Like, granted 420 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 3: I was never in that position, but her brain wasn't 421 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 3: even fully developed yet, and she herself had mental health issues. 422 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 3: That's the only thing I can you know what I mean, 423 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: Like she was seventeen, Yeah, she was seventeen. Does it 424 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 3: make it okay? No? Was she an anti suicide advocate 425 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 3: when she talked him into killing himself, you know, just 426 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 3: a few days prior? 427 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, that's a good point. I do think we 428 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: forget that, Like, yeah, you're right, Like her brain's not developed, 429 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: she's a minor. 430 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still heartbreaking. 431 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: And I have to say too, you know, like even 432 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 2: you know her doing all this, like for me, I. 433 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 3: Would be like, who is this girl? Where did she 434 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: come from? 435 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: But I'm sure you know, at the time, right her family, 436 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: they were in shock, you know, and grieving the loss 437 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: of their son. So either're thinking, oh, you know, I know, 438 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: the mother is thinking, well, at least he had this 439 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: girlfriend who loved and adored him, so she thought, even. 440 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: Though they didn't know about her in the moment when 441 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: he was alive. Yeah. 442 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean, let's talk about the investigation then. 443 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: So it's ruled a suicide and the police to decide 444 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: to look into it a little more, and they find 445 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: his phone. They're able to get into it, and that 446 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: is where they discover all of these messages from Michelle Carter. 447 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: So he had erased all other text threads on his 448 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: phone except for the ones with Michelle, So it was 449 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: almost like a focal point when they checked his phone. 450 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: It was like all these messages were there and that 451 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: was the only thing on his phone. And in the messages, 452 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: what they find, without a doubt, is very damning. I know, 453 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: we love a few of them, but here are some 454 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: more we can go into. 455 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: I mean, no kidding, I mean, let's get into it. 456 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: In one exchange, he asked her how was your day, 457 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: and she responds, when are you going to do it? 458 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: My day was okay, how was yours? I mean, how 459 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: bizarre is that into me? That's just cruel? 460 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's so gross and creepy. 461 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. And it goes on and they talk about their day, 462 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: and then she says again, when are you going to 463 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,479 Speaker 2: do it? Stop ignoring the question. 464 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: What the hell? Just keep sagging, And there's yet another exchange. 465 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: This is after he's been depressed for quite some time. 466 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: She's advocating for suicide as his best option and writes, quote, 467 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 3: it's painless and quick end quote. And this is between 468 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 3: all of these professions of love for him. So it's 469 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: like kind of manic, right, like going back and forth. 470 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: And one thing that's incredibly chilling is that she even 471 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: brings her friends into this. So just over a week 472 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 3: after Conrad dies, she texted a friend telling her she's 473 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 3: worried that she'd be implicated in his death. And she 474 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 3: does this sort of with of course, all the trauma 475 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 3: of a teenager, and she writes to her friend Sam, 476 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 3: quote Sam, they read my messages with him. I'm done. 477 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: His family will hate me and I can go to 478 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 3: jail end quote. Later she tells this friend Sam that 479 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 3: she was there when Conrad Rory actually took his last breath. 480 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 2: So obviously, I mean, she is clearly taking pleasure in this, 481 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: like in all of it. And again like she she knows, 482 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 2: she knows what she did. 483 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think she probably at least has 484 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: some sort of like twisted logic in her head that, yeah, 485 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, this was like the right thing to do somehow, 486 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: like this was like a mercy and that, like it's 487 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: just that nobody else will understand, but like at least 488 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: we know that we loved each other and this was 489 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: like the healthiest thing or something like that. 490 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost as if it's like the whole thing 491 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: is very intoxicating, Like she's playing out on both sides 492 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: of it. 493 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 3: You know, she acts like she loves him, yet she 494 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: wants him to take his life right right. And yeah, 495 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 3: it's very much a movie. And I can understand why 496 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: it was made into a mini series on Hulu, Like 497 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 3: I totally can see the dramatization of it. But again, 498 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 3: we have to remember right when we were teenagers, you 499 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 3: know how everything was so loaded with drama. Well, I 500 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: was never dramatic. I don't know what anyone's talking about, 501 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 3: but you know, many I know just kidding, but no, 502 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: many you know, especially you know teenage you know, more 503 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: feminine kids like I think they definitely have a flair 504 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: for the dramatic. And even when you're talking about death, 505 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: when you're talking about it, it doesn't seem real, right, So 506 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: maybe Michelle didn't think he was actually ever going to 507 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: do it. She was just being super dramatic because we 508 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: don't fully understand. I think when we're teenagers that anyone's 509 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: going to die, right, And that's kind of the sense 510 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 3: of what I'm getting here. I don't think she was 511 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 3: a cold blooded, heartless murderer. I just think she needed 512 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 3: She was reaching out for help as well. 513 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, going back to my question 514 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: earlier about like whether or not she was just delusional 515 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: or a bad person, I mean the way you say that, 516 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, leans towards the more delusional yeah theory, right, 517 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: that you know, in her own mind, maybe she really 518 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: thought this was like her own Romeo and Juliet story 519 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: in some kind of dark, twisted way, and therefore it 520 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: was justified. I feel like she's just like doesn't have 521 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,239 Speaker 1: a grip on reality, and I think maybe some of 522 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: her other mental health issues would back that up. 523 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so absolutely. I mean in the medications that she 524 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: was on as well. 525 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: Right, exactly exactly, And that's something they bring up a 526 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: lot in the trials, which get to so speaking of trials, though, 527 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: Michelle Carter is in fact indicted. So on February fourth 528 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen, they indict her with involuntary manslaughter and 529 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: she has arraigned the very next day and charged as 530 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: a youthful offender since she was only seventeen at the 531 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: time of Conrad's death. And so this big trial is 532 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: where a lot of crazy things happen. So we're going 533 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: to talk about that trial in just a minute. We 534 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: do have to take another quick break, though, so we 535 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: will be back after that. 536 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: At trial, the prosecution has an abundance of evidence against 537 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 3: Michelle Carter in the case of Conrad Roy's death, and 538 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: they have so much evidence, of course, in the form 539 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: of these thousands of texts. So first of all, she 540 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 3: helped him find his method. She actually wrote to him 541 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 3: and another quote here, hanging is painless and takes like 542 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: a second if you do it right. End quote. Right. 543 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we know though that that's not how he 544 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: actually died. But five days before his suicide she sent 545 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: him a news release from the US Consumer Product Safety 546 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: Commission entitled quote winter Warning, Portable generators hold top spot 547 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: in CPSC report on carbon monoxide deaths and incidents. So 548 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: she sends him this report, and then minutes before they've 549 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: been texting about ways to generate carbon monoxide. And then 550 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: she tells him in another text, quote google ways to 551 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: make it end quote Wow, And then she sends him 552 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: this news release that I just mentioned, and he responds, 553 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: quote portable generator, that's it. End quote. So that's where 554 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: he gets the idea. 555 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: And it's so crazy because they actually made a TV 556 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: show which is on Hulu and it's called The Girl 557 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: from Plainville, and this story it garnered so much attention 558 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: because again, in how often have we seen on television 559 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: where a teenage girl tells her boyfriend just kill yourself? 560 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: Just do it right? 561 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 562 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, it could be this 563 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: sort of thing happens more often than we know about. 564 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: But it definitely felt like the first public case of 565 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: this sort, which is why it gets so much media attention, 566 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: which I know we'll get to in a second. But 567 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: the only other thing this case reminds me of is 568 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: a very different type of scenario, but kind of goes 569 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: back to this question of whether or not seventeen year 570 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: olds with mental health problems should be held accountable. Is 571 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: the DC sniper case. If you remember, one of the 572 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: shooters was a seventeen year old boy who was largely 573 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: kind of opted into it by an older man, And 574 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: there was always this question of, like, you know, should 575 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: the seventeen year old be held accountable for something that 576 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: like maybe he was led into doing an adult manipulated, 577 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: maybe brainwashed, even you know, it becomes very gray because 578 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: the more that you talked to him his name was Malvo, 579 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: Lee Malvo, you know, the more you realize like he 580 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: definitely had enough facilities to like know right from wrong 581 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: by seventeen. And I think you can kind of apply 582 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: that same logic to Michelle here, which is like at seventeen, 583 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: like say what you will about some of her mental 584 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: health problems, but you still generally have an idea of 585 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: like what is right and what's wrong. Right, Yeah, And 586 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: the fact that she was texting her friend right like, hey, 587 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: they're going to get me if they read these texts, 588 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: Like she knew this was wrong and she was going 589 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: to get in trouble for it. So that's what they're 590 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: all looking at right now in this trial. The other 591 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: points the prosecution makes are that Michelle spent weeks talking 592 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: Conrad out of his doubts, you know, all that your 593 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: family won't get over it stuff. You know, she was 594 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: trying to like chip away at some of the things 595 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: that we're holding him back. 596 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess we just go back again and again, 597 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: like why would she do this? 598 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? And I was watching a documentary earlier today preparing 599 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: for episode, and I saw the prosecution arguing that she 600 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 3: was desperate for friends and attention, and days before Conrad's death, 601 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 3: she sent text to the girls that she supposedly wanted 602 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: to get closer with, wanted to be more popular around, 603 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 3: pretending that Conrad was missing to get their sympathy, like 604 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 3: she kind of had a dry run a few days 605 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 3: before he actually took his life. And in fact, prosecutors 606 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 3: went so far as to say that Conrad still being 607 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 3: alive was actually a problem for Michelle because of the 608 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 3: lies she had spun a few days earlier with her friends, 609 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: So if he remained alive, it would expose her as 610 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 3: a liar, right. 611 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: So I mean that kind of sens was there. Yeah, 612 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: but really that's not even the darkest part of it. 613 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: So at about six point thirty on the night of 614 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: his death, they end up talking for forty five minutes 615 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: or so over the phone. So, according to one article, 616 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: quote during that conversation, as the cab of the truck 617 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: filled with gas fumes, Roy decided to get out. Carter 618 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: later told a friend and in a message she probably 619 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: didn't expect to ever become public, she wrote, quote, I 620 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: fucking told him to get back in the truck. Yeah, 621 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: So he actually was like backing out of this. He 622 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: was ready to get out of that truck, and right 623 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: at the last moment, she told him to follow through, 624 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: get back in there, finish the job. 625 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 3: So so gross. It's like she put the nail in 626 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 3: his coffin, even though he's the one that put himself there, 627 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 3: right she did. 628 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like she wanted him dead. 629 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. And meanwhile, you know she's already lying to her 630 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 3: friends and saying that she was afraid he'd killed himself. 631 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. 632 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 2: So disturbing on so many levels, because first of all, 633 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 2: she knows where he's at. She could have, you know, 634 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 2: easily called his mom, called his sister called nine one one, 635 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 2: but instead, like you said, she put the nail in 636 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 2: the coffin and told him to get back in the truck, 637 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 2: I mean a vet. 638 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: Like you said, she's kind of playing both sides of this, right, Yeah, 639 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: she's trying to be the virtuous girlfriend, but then also 640 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: trying to gain sympathy, knowing full well that this is 641 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: like kind of a sham situation that she's been in 642 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: control of the whole time. Right, Well, let's talk about 643 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: the defense in this trial. So those defending Michelle Carter 644 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: say that Conrad Roy was planning to kill himself anyway, 645 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: and point to his past attempts. They say she didn't 646 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: threaten or physically assist him, that she just wanted to 647 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: help him, I guess, basically to escape the mental anguish 648 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: that he was in. They also say that she should 649 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: not be charged as an adult, and they frame all 650 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: of this as a matter of free speech, and this 651 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: becomes a slippery slope you get into when it comes 652 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: to right to die issues, which we probably should talk 653 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: about at some point today. But despite all of this, 654 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: she is indeed convicted. She's found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, 655 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: and she's sentenced to two and a half years, made 656 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: up of fifteen months in jail in a period of 657 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: supervised probation, which is pretty short. It is, so that 658 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: means that she's out already today. She was released in 659 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: January of twenty twenty, getting out three months early for 660 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: good behavior. 661 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's actually kind of sad when you think 662 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 3: about it, because in her yearbook, Michelle was voted quote 663 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 3: most likely to brighten your day end quote. 664 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's the irony here. 665 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the irony when looking at this case, Like, 666 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: I just have to go back to words are very powerful, 667 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 2: and those words that she sent in that text, you know, 668 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 2: telling Conrad to get back in that car, to me, 669 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 2: that is an act of violence. 670 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 3: She could have gotten him help, She could. 671 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: Have gotten him help, but the words that she chose 672 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: were so incredibly powerful that he got back in that 673 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 2: car and now he's not here. 674 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that she's partially responsible 675 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: for this, Right, It's just like the question is like 676 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: to what degree? And then also like what is the 677 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 1: right punishment for the level of involvement that she had, 678 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: because there hasn't really been anything like this before, right, 679 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: there's not much of a president. I don't know. And 680 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: that's part of this next, maybe big last topic here, 681 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: which is that this case became huge. It was notorious. 682 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean I remember seeing Michelle Carter's face everywhere in 683 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Yeah, we've had documentaries, We've had the fictional 684 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: show all about Michelle Carter on Hulu. I mean, I 685 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: don't know, what do you guys think, Like, why are 686 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: people so into this case? Other than that, you know, 687 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: I guess we've never seen anything like this before. 688 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: It's just fascinating because if you look at her, like 689 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: she's a beautiful girl, like you would think everything is 690 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: fine in life, so, you. 691 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 3: Know, right, And I think part of that is she's 692 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 3: like good looking, seemingly you know, pretty, she's white, she's 693 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 3: from the suburbs, and she was caught doing and seeing 694 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 3: these horrific and horrible things. And I think that fascinated 695 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 3: people in a way. I mean, people love salacious true crime, 696 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 3: and this is as salacious as you can get. It's 697 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 3: messed up in so many ways. 698 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a bit of cognitive dissonance there, I guess, 699 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: And I guess I've always not like necessarily how the 700 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: coverage of the story focused on Michelle, you know, and 701 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: not Conrad. Yeah, exactly. You know, I guess she is 702 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: like the monster of the story, right, Like when we 703 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: hear about Jeffrey Dahmer, we hear about Dahmer. We don't 704 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: hear about the people he killed usually, right, you know, 705 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: people like to focus on the person, and you know, 706 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: coming from the journalism world, they you know, red flag 707 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: that all the time, like don't talk about the shooter 708 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: when there's a school shooting, right, you know, don't talk 709 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: about the kill or don't give them attention to, don't 710 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: give them a platform. You don't want to inspire other people, 711 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, only talk about the victims. And the truth is, 712 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: like this isn't about Michelle. You know, we're talking about 713 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: a bigger problem here where youth today are dealing with 714 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: an epidemic of depression, you know, as we said, bolstered 715 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: by social media and phones and all that stuff. So 716 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: that's what we should be talking about. 717 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, etchever, that's right. And those statistics you mentioned at 718 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: the top, I mean there's been a huge increase in 719 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 2: recent years, which is so sad. 720 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean two thousand and seven to twenty seventeen 721 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: was that window that we saw like a fifty plus 722 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: percent jump, you know, and I think we definitely we 723 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: need to curb that somehow. You know, we need to 724 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: realize that social media is probably making things worse if 725 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,399 Speaker 1: we don't regulate it. And that's what I was saying 726 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: at the top. You know, we need to I think, 727 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: try harder now more than ever to you know, provide 728 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: mental health resources and like really think about the effects 729 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: of kind of isolated phone time. 730 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Words are powerful, right they are. And I think 731 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 3: it's all about having conversations. 732 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 1: Right. 733 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 3: I'm a parent myself. Our little girl is ten, and 734 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 3: she has very fiercely protective moms and aunties and uncles 735 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 3: taking care of her. But it's about having conversations. So 736 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 3: I want to encourage all of the parents or you know, 737 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 3: just guardians out there. You don't even have to be 738 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 3: a parent. You can be an uncle and auntie, a cousin, 739 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 3: a friend, you know, check on your kids and you know, 740 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 3: look at the messages and the things that they're consuming. 741 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 3: Like I get a report every week of what Leilani 742 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 3: is watching on YouTube. But we have that open dialogue 743 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 3: and conversation. So I hope that other caregivers out there 744 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 3: can do that with you know, the young people in 745 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 3: their lives as well. But I know that we can't 746 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 3: control that. We can't wrap our kids and our youth 747 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 3: in a bubble, you know. I think I remember Conrad 748 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 3: Roy's mom saying, like I wish I had you know, 749 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 3: tied him, you know to the radiator of the day before, 750 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 3: Like you can't live your life like that. So resources, 751 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 3: like we have said, are very very important, and I 752 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: would love for you all to check out the Youth 753 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 3: Mental Health Project. They have a comprehensive list of issue 754 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 3: specific resources, everything from depression to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia, 755 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 3: and we will of course post more resources on our website. 756 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 2: Our final message of hope and healing this week is 757 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 2: dedicated to Conrad Roy and other people who find themselves 758 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 2: in a deep struggle with depression. 759 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 3: Severe depression can feel like absolute despair and it can 760 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 3: seem like there's no way out. Depression is an illness 761 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 3: and it's very real. 762 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 2: We want to share with those who are going through 763 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 2: depression and those who know people struggling with it that 764 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: it can get better. 765 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,839 Speaker 3: Yes, and many people can get treatment for depression and 766 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 3: they are glad that they took the steps that they 767 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 3: needed in order to start feeling better, and it starts 768 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 3: by asking for help. 769 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 2: Maybe Conrad Roy was never able to fully take those steps. 770 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 2: Today we honor him, his family and everyone out there 771 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 2: who's ever struggled with depression in their own family. You 772 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 2: are not alone. Onward and Upward, Emua emua. 773 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 3: Well, that's our show for today, And as we said 774 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 3: at the beginning of the episode, if you or someone 775 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 3: you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please call 776 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 3: the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two 777 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 3: seven three eight two five five. We would love to 778 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 3: hear what you thought about today discussion and if there's 779 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 3: a case you'd like for us to cover, find us 780 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 3: on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email us 781 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 3: at Facing Eagle Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until next 782 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 3: time Aloha. 783 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 784 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia paccuerero in Avet Gentile, 785 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf 786 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 787 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 1: Albright In Payne Lindsay Our executive producers on behalf of 788 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. 789 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 790 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil, pod at 791 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv. More podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, 792 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 793 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.