WEBVTT - Ghislaine Maxwell’s Attack-the-Victim Strategy 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.680 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.840 The bail hearing for Gallen Maxwell ended with the judge 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.680 ruling that she must span the next year behind bars 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:16.440 awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. The judge sighted Maxwell's 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:21.599 extraordinary financial resources and international ties and concluded there was 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.360 a substantial risk that Maxwell would flee the country. The 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.680 British socialite pleaded not guilty to charges that she helped 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:33.200 her longtime boyfriend Jeffrey Epstein run a sex trafficking scheme 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.960 targeting girls as young as fourteen. The bail hearing offered 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.239 a glimpse at Maxwell's strategy at trial and at her 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.760 life hiding from authorities at a luxurious secluded a state 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.800 in New Hampshire, guarded around the clock by a team 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.760 of former British military Joining me as Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.040 Legal reporter, pat you actually attended the hearing, So tell 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.160 us what it was like in this in the midst 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:01.200 of the coronavirus pandemic. Well, it's of the first hearings 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.600 that was held in the Seroal Courthouse in Lower Manhattan, 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.160 and you know this is a place that's seen big trials, 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.040 show trials of world Calm and Bernie made Off case 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.240 and it's been shut down throughout the pandemic, and they 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.840 opened it earlier this month for hearing and it's open 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.039 to the public that on a restricted basis. You have 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.720 to get your temperature checks before you go in. We 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.560 went in and they had the Central Jury Room, which 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.600 is this massive room where the jury potential jurors gather 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.959 before they go up to trial. They had this massive room, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.679 socially distanced chairs, so about six ft apart. It was 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.320 seating for about sixty people, and they had giant screens overhead, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.960 and everybody was in remote places. So Glenne Maxwell was 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.800 in a lawyer's conference room over a screen, probably a 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.920 laptop in the federal jail in Brooklyn. Per lawyer Mark 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.880 Cohen was in his office. The judge was apparently at 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.840 her possibly her home office. She was not in the courthouse, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.919 I was told, And everybody was appearing virtually, so it 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.359 kind of unusual to see court not in court. Tell 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.359 us about Maxwell's appearance. What did she look like? Well, 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.440 her lawyer had complained that since she arrived at the MDC, 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.240 they had not allowed her to take a shower for 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.640 seventy two hours. She seems in great physical shape. She 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.960 had her hair pulled back in a bun. She was 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.640 wearing brown looked like short sleeve jail fatigues. And she 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:42.760 speaks in a very posh, clipped, educated British accent, very composed. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.200 She's had her shoulders squared, and she was really attentive 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.240 throughout the hearing. Was there a separate hearing for the 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.680 bail as opposed to the pola. The hearing happened in 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.080 several chapters. The first one is they have to do 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.560 a whole proviso where the judge advises everybody be and 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.160 and asks Maxwell if she's consenting to appear. Virtually, she 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.640 has a right to be in the courthouse and have appearance, 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.680 but because of the coronavirus pandemic, the courts are closed 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.720 and this was going to be happening virtually, So that 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.920 was the first part. Second part was she was arraigned 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.000 and entered a not guilty plea, and then the next 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.760 part was the prosecutors and the defense lawyers made their 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.079 best arguments for why Maxwell should get bail. Her lawyers 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.639 were arguing or why she should not be bailed because 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.160 she poses a flight risk. So let's talk first about 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.040 some of her arguments for bail. Of course, COVID nine 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.240 team and her lawyer is Mark Cohen, who's a former 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.640 federal prosecutor in Brooklyn. He argued that she should get 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.560 five million dollars bond because keeping her in the jail, 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.600 it's cumbersome and too difficult to show her all these 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.080 thousands of pages of documents. He said he had to 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.480 read most of the stuff over the own to her. 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.080 Because all the federal jails are under shut down, they 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.960 can't have attorney's visits for the reason that the attorneys 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.800 could bring COVID into the jail or the virus could 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.280 get spread, so there are no attorney visits. Everything's done 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.640 virtually over video conferencing, So showing a client evidence over 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.040 a screen and having them read it over the screen 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.839 is really really difficult. And they only get a limited 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.760 amount of time anyway in these for these lawyer conferences, 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.880 So imagine only getting an hour to share your clients 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.440 two thousand pages of documents. So that was number one. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.000 This was going to hamper her ability to defend herself. Secondly, 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.120 they argued she's at risk because she's fifty eight, that 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.720 she could get coronavirus, but the judge noted that she 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.480 had not raised any pre existing conditions that would possibly 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.880 put her at risk. So the judge, who has in 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.960 the past allowed other people out of prison because of 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.200 the virus, did not make a finding on that, so 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.760 that was a losing argument for her. Now, one of 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:04.040 the alleged victims testified. Her name is Annie Farmer. She 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.480 says she was sixteen years old when she met Maxwell, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:13.560 and Maxwell invited her to meet Epstein because he was 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.760 going to offer her to pay for her education. She 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.440 was invited for a weekend at this New Mexico retreat 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.440 with other high school students because they were meeting this 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.839 finance here who was looking for intelligent children to help 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.120 back their education. And she find herself all alone with 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.880 Epstein and Maxwell and a New Mexico ranch, and that's 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.839 when the abuse started. So she spoke out, and the 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.640 victims are entitled to speak out, you know, don't allow 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.240 this person out because of the harm they've caused me. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.960 That's under the federal world. I've been talking to Bloomberg 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.240 legal reporter Pat Hurtado about Galine Maxwell's bail hearing. Was 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.240 the prosecutor's argument, basically that there's nothing that can ensure 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.719 that she won't leave the jurisdiction. Yeah, that was the argument. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.080 Maxwell wanted out on five million dollar a bomb secured 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:05.440 by six people unnamed to she said, we're siblings, unnamed. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.240 She wasn't putting up any of her money. She was 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.200 offering to put up property about three point seven five 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.400 million in the UK, that's hers, but she was not 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.839 offering to put up any of her own money. The 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.359 government said she has all these mysterious finances. There seemed 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.360 to be possibly fifteen bank accounts, including a Swiss bank 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.200 account which appears to hold up more than twenty million dollars, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.520 and there's been a lot of transactions going back and 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.679 forth where money would be funneled from an Epstein account 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.720 to her account, back and forth. And they're not clear 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.640 the origins of the money or how much she has. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.960 They know she has at least one Swiss bank account 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.599 and where this money went. She sold an apartment to 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.320 townhouse It's pretty County on East sixty five Street on 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.640 the upper east Side for about fifteen million a couple 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.800 couple of years ago, and the government says we don't 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.400 know where that money went. And then she bought this 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.920 how in New Hampshire where they arrested her, you know, 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.800 a hundred fifty six acres in Bradford, New Hampshire for 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.880 one point two million, but it was purchased under an LLC. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.840 And the government said there were all these red flags. 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.040 When they questioned Maxwell, she they said she's been less 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.320 than truthful. For example, when pre trial it is called 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.400 pre trial services and it's the court people who interviewed 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.040 the person and say, okay, you just got arrested. Tell 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.800 us a bit about yourself. Do you have any bank accounts? 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.200 You know, help us out here because we're trying to 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.119 assess if you're eligible for bail or if you're too poor. 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.480 You need as a sense lawyer so you can get 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.880 a federal defender paid for by the government. Maxwell. When 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.480 they asked her where she lived, she said, oh, I 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.040 live in a house. I don't know who owns it, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.240 but the people who own it let me live there. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.480 And the government said that was very curious to them 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.600 because they got a call from the real estate agent 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.320 who sold the New Hampshire proper the who said that 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.840 they recognized Galae Maxwell as the woman who had come 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.720 with a man. The man said his name was Scott 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.400 and the woman said her name was Jen, and how 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.160 he introduced himself as retired British military who was working 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.080 on a book, and she introduced herself as Jen Marshall 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:25.400 and said she was a journalist who is looking for privacy. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.760 So the circumstances of I don't know who owns my house, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.800 but the real estate agent said, this is the woman 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.200 I recognized to introduced herself as somebody completely different. The 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.640 government said these are ruses that show that she's willing 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.640 to be less than forthcoming and hide off the grid 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.520 to conceal herself, and that she's been hiding for the 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.280 last year, and Judge finally decided with the government there 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.880 was just too much risk and too many unknown factors 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.040 about her. She's also a French citizen, and France does 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.600 an extradited citizens, so that's also a problem. We got 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.320 some insight into how she was living while she was 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.480 hiding in New Hampshire, including that she had a team 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:12.320 of former British military guarding her. Yeah, and the defense 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:17.120 lawyer Mark Cohen was making an argument that Galais Maxwell 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.960 has been the victim of a sensatiable media basically that 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.800 have been going after her, so that Maxwell hired these 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.080 people was a team of former British military who guarded 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.920 her compound and that when the FBI says, when they 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.000 got to her gate, it was locked. They had to 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.520 cut the lock. They were immediately confronted with a guard 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.600 who demanded who they were, and they announced that they 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.120 were FBI and they were there to arrest her. They 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.840 go up to the front door and one of them 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.040 looks through the window and sees Maxwell running away from 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.840 the door, and then they announced themselves and they say 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.640 they had to breach the door, and then they went 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.760 in and they found her hiding in another room. One 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.160 of the agents found a cell phone wrapped in tinfoil, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.320 which they said was a misguided effort to avoid being 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:14.400 tracked on her phone. Now, her lawyer said this is 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.120 all because Maxwell has been victimized by the media who's 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.640 always trying to track her down. So this is what 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:25.079 she did. She hired guard to protect her from the press, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.760 and that the phone last year sometime that he claimed 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.920 that her phone had been hacked by British press and 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:37.160 that's why she was wrapping it in tinfoil to avoid 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.480 this phone from being hacked by the press. When the 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.800 judge said no bail, you're going to be in jail 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.120 for about a year until your trial, did she have 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.720 a visible reaction. I mean, some people said they saw 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.640 her wiping a tear from her eye. What I saw 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.600 is that almost looks like someone who was sitting up straight, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.120 very perky and attentive, and she had the look of 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.120 you know, she was totally impassive expression the whole time. 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.000 But when she lost that argument and the judge that 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.560 I find her a risk, she has the ability to flee. 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.680 There's no circumstances I feel comfortable allowing her out. She 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.720 seemed to deflate, and her shoulders sagged, and she looked 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.280 she cast her eyes down and she stopped looking up, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.120 so it looked like, you know, somebody, the air went 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.240 out of her. The defenses arguments at the bail hearing 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.560 hint at possible trial strategies from Maxwell, and one was 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.960 challenging the credibility and the motives of the alleged victims, 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.600 one of whom had just testified. Yeah, and one of 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.200 the people that the defense lawyer Cohen went after was 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.560 Annie Farmer, and he basically, in a kind of a 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.040 parenthetical aside, said, you know, this is a woman who 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.079 has filed a lawsuit seeking millions of dollars from this Maxwell, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:58.719 who has also applied for There's an Epstein Victims compensation 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.440 fund est ablished out of this more than six million 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.560 dollars that was in Epstein's estate when he died last 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.040 August in a federal jail awaiting sex trafficking charges. So 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.760 in May they worked out a deal where they established 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.520 this fund that would have trustees and the victims of 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:22.080 Epstein's abuse could make applications to be compensated because of 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.760 the abuse. And he was basically suggesting, don't listen to 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.600 any Farmer because she wants money and she's seeking millions 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.120 from Maxwell, and she's going to get millions from Epstein's fund. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.640 Is that kind of attack on the alleged victims, who 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.439 were teenagers at the time risky, especially in the me 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.920 too era? Mighty backfire a trial? Um, Yeah, you know, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.120 it's interesting because I covered Harvey Weinstein's trial and it 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.800 was a similar kind of approach that it has not 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.280 and Bill Cosby certainly did it in his trial, so 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.480 it hasn't been successful in the Post meets New World. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.400 And I asked, um, David Boys is a lawyer for 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.920 any farmer and he represents other victims. And I said, 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.120 are you confident you know there's if you're aware of it. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.160 There's a history of litigation. Um. Some of the victims 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.600 did sue Epstein in federal court. Um. There's a long 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:24.240 travail of lawsuits and cases. Um. After the victims find 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.680 out that there was a plea deal that Epstein got 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.800 in the Southern District of Florida where he evaded prosecution, 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.640 they were upset that they were cut out. And you know, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.360 under the law, it's called a Crime Victims Restitution Act 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.280 where victims can be have to be notified and then 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.000 they get to participate and say this person did this 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.040 to me, and I want you to judge to know 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.280 to inform the judge for a sentence. Well, these people 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.000 got didn't get told. And the women found out after 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:55.880 the fact that he got a plea deal and it 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.760 was all over. The case was over. So UM, the 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.560 as women basically want that there's a lot of out there. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:09.559 There's depositions, there's testimony. Um, they've spoken out, they filed lawsuits, 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:11.880 So when I was asking David boys, are you worried 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.400 about some of these victims that they may get assailed? 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.840 And are new confident that Annie Farm her, knowing what 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.480 happened today, will be able to sit withstand this kind 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.520 of cross examination if maxwell lawyers go after her, and 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.000 he said, fine, I'm perfectly confident she's going to stand 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.040 up just fine. So you know, it remains to be seen. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.200 It would be quite a trial because it will be 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.480 Epstein's top lieutenant that these young women said, you know, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.080 I was fourteen years old. I was sixteen years old, 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.640 and this lady came up to me and she seemed 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:44.720 so nice, and she befriended me, and she checked me 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.120 into Epstein's world. Did the defense attorney also try to 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.120 portray Maxwell as a bit of a victim herself here, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.920 which seems like it would be a stretch before a jury. Well, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:15:00.960 he indicated that she a didn't know anything was going on, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.720 and then it seemed like he could possibly be indicating 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.760 that that might be an avenue they're going to explore 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.600 she didn't know what was going on behind closed doors. 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.800 I wasn't there, I didn't know it. But secondly that 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.800 if she was involved. If there was any involvement, it 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.040 was because she was in Epstein's thraw kind of signaled 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.080 that he was going to raise that it's got to 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.320 be it's going to be more developed, I believe, you 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.760 know when we see down the road when these papers 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.440 get filed and the motions start getting made and there's 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.600 a July trial day, so we'll have a July twelve 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.120 one trial day. That's literally going to be nearly two 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.120 years to the day from when Epstein first got arrested. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.200 In reading about it, it seems as if the defense 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.440 attorney was just throwing everything against the wall to see 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.880 what would stick, even saying that, oh, there were no 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.520 video or audio tapes of what happened, which is certainly 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.600 not a requirement right right, and and once that was 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.800 one thing that David Boys was saying to me after 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.720 the hearing, that, um, you don't need stuff in this 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.320 day and age, and another defense lawyers said this former 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.200 prosecutor said this to me that you know, that was 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.720 an argument you made, Oh there's no video, and people say, 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.280 but there was this that argument was made before cell 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.080 phone You know, people make cell phone videos all the time. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.200 And now we see what happened to George Floyd, for example. 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:34.280 But there is the testimony. These these former prosecutors and 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.440 boys were saying, if you hear the steering accounts from 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.880 a woman, and the jury assesses whether that person is 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:46.600 credible the story enough is going to be pretty potent 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.480 evidence before a jury. And the other thing the government 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:55.239 says is they have travel records, photographs, and other material 0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:00.600 that will actually, um, you know, corroborate what these young 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.320 women said happen, even though it's twenty five years old. 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.920 I have to say that it seems as if since 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.159 Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide that all the attention that might 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.480 have been on his trial and him and all the 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:18.919 blame is going to be pushed to her. Yeah. I 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.360 think that's what's happened. I mean, um, there's an speculation 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.080 of if she played guilty, could she possibly give up 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:31.600 other people in the network. But um, the former prosecutors 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.000 I spoke to said, you know, you you view her. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:39.639 She was Epstein from the victim's accounts. She was Epstein's enabler. 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.640 She was the one that enticed and lured these young women, teenagers, 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:50.399 kids into his orbits and constantly funneled this these women. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.159 And then also the government says she was present so 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.880 that she kind of would quote unquote normalize the abuse. Well, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.119 it can't be so bad as this lady. She is, 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.520 this nice lady. Oh you're asking me to take my 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.040 clothes off to do a massage. Oh, well, the lady's 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.680 still here, you know, and she helped normalize this a 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.120 barrent behavior for these poor kids, many of whom were 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:18.640 homeless or destitute or came from broken homes. So it's 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:25.199 Jeffrey Epstein died in August of twenty but this is 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.600 as close as you get to his second in command. 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.320 And you know, if she was involved with this, with 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.480 this behavior as the as the victims say she was, 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.320 then you know it's uh, there's there's a reason why 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.159 she's going to go to trial. One final question, is 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.680 anyone considering or is there a thought that since she'll 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.200 be in jail for a year, that they'll be pressure 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.600 on her to lead guilty. And I mean, would the 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.439 government even want to give her a deal? Yeah, some 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.040 of the some of the people I was talking to 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.240 said yes, this would be you know, she may get 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.760 realized it's not so much fun being in lock up. 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.360 It's not fun to be told when to take a shower. 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.840 And the conditions at the Federal jail in Brooklyn have 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.919 come under incredible scrutiny for the lack of you know, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.880 the women don't get enough air, they don't get time outside, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.760 and they don't get even get sunlight. It's a Some 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.679 of the dormitories are like one big giant room with 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.840 a bunch of bunk beds side by side. And during 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.320 the pandemic, they've been complaints that the women have been 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:40.679 ordered during a lockdown. There's been some situations whatever security situations, 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.520 and they're told to sit on their beds all day 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.879 long and don't move, and they have to be escorted 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.800 to go to the bathroom and they're not necessarily allowed to. 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.720 So it's been kind of you know, it's not the 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.920 greatest conditions. So if she's in these conditions when she's 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.359 used to living quite the life, living very well. She's 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.479 the daughter of a British publishing baron, Robert Maxwell. She 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.760 grew up, she went to Oxford, She's lived very very 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.760 high life and now suddenly the reality may be sinking 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.520 in for her in a federal jail. Not a lot 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.399 of fun facing federal charges that maybe it's time to 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.200 kind of deal with the government and try to get 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.240 some leniency, whether or not they get offered to her, 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.720 and whether or not it's a deal that she accepts, 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.760 and whether or not, you know, she might have to 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.160 throw herself on the mercy of the court, and if 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.480 whether or not she wants to give up other people 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.040 and the government possibly might be suspicious if she starts 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.840 pointing fingers at other people when they know otherwise that 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.680 she was more directly involved than they were. It's called 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.919 cooperating down. So whether you would go point down to 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.280 a person lower on the on pyramid, on the power 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.800 pyramid and say, oh, it's their fault, you know, that's 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.480 not going to look good for her before a federal 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.840 judge trying to implicate someone else and claim that she's 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.679 less culpable. So it remains to be saying, what's going 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:06.480 to happen next? And if she gave up to other people, um, 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:11.160 who would they be. Someone likened this to somebody who's 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.800 the head of a drug kingpin running a drug conspiracy 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.600 right drug trafficking. The drug kingpin dies, but his top 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.680 lieutenant is still around. So if that top lieutenant wants 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:24.960 to plead guilty. Who are they going to implicate? There 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.679 might be other people involved that they're the still number 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.680 two in this this organization. So what they were suggesting 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.760 to me as she may decide to point fingers at 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.719 other people, but they may just be other clients. And 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.160 I'm not condoning those other individuals who may have been 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:48.439 clients because they were having sex with underage girls. But um, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:53.040 in the world of who's culpable and Jeffrey and Epstein's 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.520 sex trafficking ring, it's gonna be equation. The government's going 0:21:57.600 --> 0:21:59.359 to have to work out. Thanks so much for being 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.760 on the Bloomberg A Show, Patty. That's Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:08.240 Legal Reporter. After last minute legal battles and exhausting all 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.879 legal avenues, the Texas Republican Party has given in and 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.960 is having its convention online. The Texas State Supreme Court 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.439 refused to force the city of Houston to allow the 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.639 party to host its convention indoors at the George R. 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.919 Brown Convention Center as the city is fighting the coronavirus pandemic. 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.119 Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Laurel Culkins So Laurel 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.880 tell us about the legal whirlwind. Okay, well, it all 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.439 erupted at the last minute, sort of the middle of 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:40.719 last week when Houston's Mayor Sylvester Turner, after repeatedly trying 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.760 and failing to convince the Texas Republican Party to shift 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.399 to a virtual convention, instructed convention officials to find a 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:52.440 way out of the contract. And they've decided that the 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:56.280 risk of six thousand more or less delegates coming to 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:59.480 the city of Houston, which is an epidemic hot zone 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.960 at this point, was simply too great a risk for 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.359 a health stand point to both the attendees and a 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.120 local convention and hotel and restaurant workers. So they triggered 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.720 the forced masure clause, which is an escape clause in 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:15.639 contracts that says, if you cannot perform this contract, you 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:19.440 don't have to. Okay. Immediately, two different groups of Republicans suit, 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.800 and they suit on different grounds. The Texas Republican Party 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:27.280 itself said, well, that's actually not forced masure. You can 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.639 safely hold a convention for six thousand people in a 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.919 hall built for fifty thousand people with appropriate social distancing 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.080 and cleaning procedures. You just don't want to, and that's 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:41.440 an improper use of forced masure. Well, the other group, 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.960 let's just call them the rogue Republican big wigs because 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.760 they're not actually the Texas Republican Party. They also sued, 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.639 and they claimed constitutional ground that Turner, who is a Democrat, 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.760 was squashing their constitutional rights to free speech and assembly 0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.680