Speaker 1: I've spent the last few weeks listening to a lot
Speaker 1: of moms, moms from all over the world with kids
Speaker 1: of all ages who work in all sorts of different
Speaker 1: jobs and industries. Each was cobbled together their own system
Speaker 1: to make their lives, their kids, their relationships, their jobs work.
Speaker 1: So there's a doctor's appointment, preschool function, etcetera. I will
Speaker 1: move meetings around in order to accommodate those. I decided
Speaker 1: to work part time now so that I could spend
Speaker 1: more time with the kids. I work from home, so
Speaker 1: my family responsibilities and never really stop. I have been
Speaker 1: able to balance my workload by scheduling things like confidence calls, trainings,
Speaker 1: or presentations around my daughter's naptimes to have a lot
Speaker 1: of flexibility to handle work responsibilities. Um but fortunately my
Speaker 1: husband also works evenings and weekends, so he has daytimes
Speaker 1: to kind of pick up after school and do doctor's
Speaker 1: appointments and dentists visits and things of that nature. I
Speaker 1: actually really left my full time job to start my
Speaker 1: own business so I could create more flexibility with my kids.
Speaker 1: So the way we made it work well. First of all,
Speaker 1: we moved to London because the firm asked me to
Speaker 1: take out a business, so my wife quit her job,
Speaker 1: so we actually made it work, basically replicating a straight
Speaker 1: couple's life. These women told me all the ways they
Speaker 1: were coping with the demands of work and parenting, but
Speaker 1: the more they talked, the more you could hear that
Speaker 1: despite all of these strategies, it's still not really working.
Speaker 1: I just want to add the sheer exhaustion that both
Speaker 1: of us feel, and I think this isn't unique to
Speaker 1: being a mom, and I think my husband also feel
Speaker 1: this feels this way at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: You've spent all day working and then you come home
Speaker 1: and you have to run around after a toddler. I
Speaker 1: wish I was able to do my entire job at
Speaker 1: work and then come home and be a parent, but
Speaker 1: actually I work every night. I think that's what surprised
Speaker 1: me the most, that I need to be really present
Speaker 1: with my kids, but that the work doesn't stop. And
Speaker 1: find myself incredibly emotionally drained just from the work that
Speaker 1: I do, and then to have to come home and
Speaker 1: not really be able to recharge in the same way
Speaker 1: is a challenge. Just to put it that way, it's
Speaker 1: a challenge. You don't really think about all that you
Speaker 1: do as a mom because you have this surviving mentality
Speaker 1: of I gotta do what I gotta do and it
Speaker 1: just has to be done. Everything we've been hearing from
Speaker 1: parents is backed up by data. There was this Pew
Speaker 1: survey that came out a few years ago that gave
Speaker 1: a portrait of the modern American family. In more households
Speaker 1: than ever, both parents work, a huge change from the
Speaker 1: way families looked less than half a century ago. That's
Speaker 1: been good economically for families. Two income families make more
Speaker 1: than twice as much as single income ones. But in
Speaker 1: those two income households, both moms and dad's said they
Speaker 1: feel stressed, hired, and like they lack quality time with
Speaker 1: their children, friends, and partners. Right now, we're asking people
Speaker 1: in two income to parent households to do three jobs,
Speaker 1: one of which does not pay. In single parents, they're
Speaker 1: doing two jobs for the price of one. The stress
Speaker 1: of that is wearing on everyone. But even if you
Speaker 1: don't have kids, this is your problem too. For those
Speaker 1: who want to keep working at the same level, getting
Speaker 1: pregnant and having a child often deals them an involuntary setback.
Speaker 1: We are failing mama's and daddy's all across this country,
Speaker 1: and we are failing our kids as will. You should
Speaker 1: never say I'm ready to the baby. Am I ready
Speaker 1: to lose my job? There was no single industry where
Speaker 1: women aren't punished for appropriating. When men have children, they
Speaker 1: experience a pay bump. When women have children, the opposite happens.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg cruns to the numbers and found that Wall Street
Speaker 1: is the worst when it comes to gender pay gaps.
Speaker 1: Gender is no longer the factor creating the greatest wage
Speaker 1: discrepancy in this country. Motherhood is welcome to the paycheck.
Speaker 1: I'm Rebecca Greenfield when I say the current system isn't working.
Speaker 1: It's not just the emotional and mental toll it's taking
Speaker 1: on people with kids. It's a bad deal for all
Speaker 1: of us. We started the series talking about the gender
Speaker 1: pay gap and why women on average in the US
Speaker 1: make around less than men. We know motherhood is one
Speaker 1: of the biggest contributing factors. Women with kids aren't able
Speaker 1: to live the lives they want and make as much
Speaker 1: money as they could be making. And we know that
Speaker 1: dads are also penalized in their careers when they try
Speaker 1: to help out at home. But the gender pay gap
Speaker 1: and the motherhood penalty aren't just problems for women or
Speaker 1: even parents. Right now, the rest of us we're benefiting
Speaker 1: from women taking on the unpaid work of raising kids.
Speaker 1: That may seem like a great deal, but as we've
Speaker 1: explained this season, holding women back from fully participating in
Speaker 1: the workforce hurts the economy. Making it financially untenable to
Speaker 1: have kids also hurts the economy, and a weekend economy
Speaker 1: is everybody's problem. Once we see this as everyone's problem,
Speaker 1: it becomes easier to see that everyone is responsible for
Speaker 1: the solutions, and societies can make huge changes when they
Speaker 1: commit to supporting the needs of working women. How do
Speaker 1: I know that, because there was one time in the
Speaker 1: history of the United States when that happened. Everyone chipped
Speaker 1: in to make the lives of working women easier, and
Speaker 1: it was better not just for these women, but for
Speaker 1: their children and the economy. Me During World War Two,
Speaker 1: women went to work in greater numbers than ever before
Speaker 1: because the country needed them to. That mean figuring out
Speaker 1: what to do with their children while they spent their
Speaker 1: days working. Susan Burfield looks at the brief moment when
Speaker 1: the US government provided high qualities, subsidized childcare for working
Speaker 1: women of Richmond ship Builders were women seven workers with
Speaker 1: small children, inspired the founding of thirty five nursery school
Speaker 1: units and ten extended day care centers, which mothered over
Speaker 1: fourteen hundred youngsters at a time. World War two was
Speaker 1: a national emergency. Because of that, a lot of previously
Speaker 1: unthinkable things became necessary. Women were recruited to work in
Speaker 1: the very busy, very understaffed factories and shipyards. Rosie the
Speaker 1: Riveter became a cultural icon, but what about Rosie's kids.
Speaker 1: During the whole course of the war, the women start
Speaker 1: to play more and more of a role in actual production,
Speaker 1: and then we get to the point where, well, what
Speaker 1: does it take for women to come into the into
Speaker 1: the workforce? One of these conditions, the last element of
Speaker 1: all this is childcare. Lincoln Cushing is the archivist at
Speaker 1: Kaiser Permanente, a company that during the war was building
Speaker 1: ships for the Merchant Marines using this new influx of
Speaker 1: women workers. When millions of women rushed into the workforce,
Speaker 1: many moved to the coast for jobs, and that meant
Speaker 1: they didn't have family to look after their kids. They
Speaker 1: had to scramble to come up with solutions. Newspapers published
Speaker 1: shocking accounts of mothers leaving their kids in their cars,
Speaker 1: near factories or outside schools until their shifts were over.
Speaker 1: Some movie theaters were filled with children waiting for their moms.
Speaker 1: It was obvious that something had to be done to
Speaker 1: care for all these children, So, with some government funding,
Speaker 1: Kaiser began to build daycare centers right there in the shipyards.
Speaker 1: What persuaded companies and the government to solve the problem
Speaker 1: wasn't just the tales of neglected kids. The widespread lack
Speaker 1: of childcare was affecting their bottom line. Women with kids
Speaker 1: often had to miss shifts, and that meant factories could
Speaker 1: miss type production deadlines. America was at war and every
Speaker 1: worker needed to be on duty. Still, having a company
Speaker 1: watch over your kids and the government pay for it
Speaker 1: wasn't popular At first. This was a new thing. The
Speaker 1: idea that the government would be involved in childcare was
Speaker 1: a was a pretty radical concept, and it was not
Speaker 1: It was not an easy sell. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of reason to believe that having industry or government take
Speaker 1: care of your kid was a problematic situation. Up to then,
Speaker 1: Americans generally thought of day care's custodial welfare, sometimes cruel.
Speaker 1: It was used only by the poor and those who
Speaker 1: didn't have family around. Most people still believed that children
Speaker 1: should be cared for by a mother who stayed home
Speaker 1: full time in order for them to grow up safe, happy,
Speaker 1: and well adjusted. The war effort intensified, production ramped up,
Speaker 1: and eventually the need for women to show up to
Speaker 1: work on schedule became more and more obvious. Public opposition
Speaker 1: to the child care centers began to fade. Having these
Speaker 1: facilities was seen as a patriotic act, and that that
Speaker 1: undercut a lot of the resistance to it as well.
Speaker 1: Famous architects designed the centers for Kaiser in Oregon and
Speaker 1: California right near the shipyards. Teachers ran them, nurses oversaw
Speaker 1: medical clinics in the centers. The shipyards operated seven days
Speaker 1: a week around the clock, so the centers did too.
Speaker 1: The day started with a health inspection. There's first aid
Speaker 1: facilities there, so if your kid is sick, your kid
Speaker 1: is taking care of your kid. Kids inoculations, They had
Speaker 1: art classes. They had people coming in to teach all
Speaker 1: sorts of wonderful things. There were outdoor recreational activities. They
Speaker 1: had nutritionists, on staff so that your child was getting
Speaker 1: a well balanced meal. The children ate a baked apple,
Speaker 1: scrambled eggs, holy toasted milk for breakfast. They got a
Speaker 1: daily dose of cod liver oil. And when it was
Speaker 1: time to go home, there was even more help for mothers.
Speaker 1: For a small fee, a mother would be able to
Speaker 1: pick up a meal at the end of her shift
Speaker 1: and picking up her child so that you don't have
Speaker 1: to just pick up your kid, go home and make dinner.
Speaker 1: And it was all affordable for women. They were earning
Speaker 1: union wages and the centers were subsidized by the government.
Speaker 1: Mothers paid about fifty cents a day, the equivalent of
Speaker 1: seven dollars today. The government ran similar child care centers
Speaker 1: for other mothers involved in the war effort that weren't
Speaker 1: connected to specific companies as the Kaiser centers were. What
Speaker 1: made these centers possible, and the government subsidized ones like
Speaker 1: Kaiser's was a piece of legislation that passed to nineteen
Speaker 1: forty called the Landom Act. The initial intent of this
Speaker 1: piece of legislation actually was not to provide or or
Speaker 1: fund childcare programs. It was initially intended to fund the
Speaker 1: construction and maintenance of big infrastructure projects that were necessary
Speaker 1: to prepare the nation to go to war. That's Chris Herbst.
Speaker 1: He's an associate professor at Arizona State University and an
Speaker 1: expert on childcare. The inclusion of money for childcare in
Speaker 1: the Landom Act has been called an inspired afterthought because
Speaker 1: the money was essentially snuck in, there was no congressional debate,
Speaker 1: and the program could get going quickly. It was the
Speaker 1: first time in the nation's history that public money was
Speaker 1: spent on daycare for kids who weren't poor. It wasn't universal,
Speaker 1: and it didn't meet all the demand, but at the
Speaker 1: peak in July, there were more than three thousands nurse
Speaker 1: serving a hundred and thirty kids in communities involved in
Speaker 1: the war effort. The total cost was about hundred million dollars,
Speaker 1: the equivalent of a billion dollars today. The centers provided
Speaker 1: one teacher for every ten kids, and they adjusted their
Speaker 1: schedules and services depending on the community. This coincided with
Speaker 1: women's shifts within factories. If you were a school aged child,
Speaker 1: you generally attended these childcare programs for a fewer hours,
Speaker 1: usually before school and after school. Uh these school aged
Speaker 1: children received help with homework with music lessons. The primary
Speaker 1: takeaway is that these programs were really flexible. They were
Speaker 1: implemented in service of women's employment. But what about that
Speaker 1: idea lots of people had that daycare was bad for children,
Speaker 1: that it would damage the mother child relationship and harm kids.
Speaker 1: Researchers interviewed mothers and looked at the center's records. Teachers
Speaker 1: observed that of the kids made notice both social progress.
Speaker 1: Every single one of the five mothers interviewed by the
Speaker 1: researchers reported that their kids enjoyed nursery school. Many said
Speaker 1: they became better mothers they were more patient at home. One,
Speaker 1: a welder named Wilma Thatcher, called the center the best
Speaker 1: thing that could happen for working mothers. Other research showed
Speaker 1: that childcare helped kids become social beings and it reduced friction, nagging,
Speaker 1: and quarreling between mothers and kids at home. Chris calls
Speaker 1: them the high water mark of childcare in the US,
Speaker 1: but they wouldn't last. The war ended, factories slowed production
Speaker 1: for the military and began to prepare for the soldiers
Speaker 1: to return. The government announced it would cut the funding
Speaker 1: for the Landam Act centers Kaiser closed its own child
Speaker 1: service centers, women protested. Eleanor Roosevelt wanted the centers to
Speaker 1: remain open. Here's an excerpt from her syndicated column My Day.
Speaker 1: The closing of child care centers throughout the country certainly
Speaker 1: is bringing to light the fact that these centers were
Speaker 1: a real need. Many thought they were purely a war
Speaker 1: emergency measure. A few of us had an inkling that
Speaker 1: perhaps they were in need, which was constantly with us,
Speaker 1: but one that we had neglected to face in the past.
Speaker 1: Now mothers have had the opportunity of going to work
Speaker 1: and leaving their children in a center where they felt secure.
Speaker 1: They knew that the children would be properly fed, given
Speaker 1: supervised recreation and occupation, and medical care if necessary. They
Speaker 1: were able to work better, and they were less exhausted physically.
Speaker 1: But the men were coming back. The experiment was over.
Speaker 1: The daycares existed for just a couple of years, but
Speaker 1: they radically changed the way Americans thought about childcare. Mothers
Speaker 1: could see and research confirmed that the kids thrived in
Speaker 1: the group setting. The educational activities and healthcare gave them
Speaker 1: a head start. The services, the meals, the mending, the
Speaker 1: infirmary all reduced working women's stress. All of this helped
Speaker 1: change the perception that childcare was bad for kids, and
Speaker 1: Chris found that women whose kids were in the Landamax
Speaker 1: centers tended to remain in the workforce after the war.
Speaker 1: They probably became uh sort of fairly firmly entrenched in
Speaker 1: the labor force uh. And so when the war ended
Speaker 1: and men came home, they continued to to enjoy employments,
Speaker 1: seek the benefits from employment, and likely worked throughout the
Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Women continued working, but now they
Speaker 1: had to manage without the subsidized childcare, without the medical
Speaker 1: attention for the kids, and without the hot meals. The
Speaker 1: women were left on their own to find affordable ways
Speaker 1: to care for their kids while they went to work,
Speaker 1: and it left women wondering if they would ever get
Speaker 1: that much help again. High quality, government subsidized childcare didn't last,
Speaker 1: but its legacy did. Over the next two decades, more
Speaker 1: women entered the workforce and more women sent their kids
Speaker 1: to daycare. Public attitude started to shift. It was no
Speaker 1: longer considered fringe or negligent for mothers to leave their
Speaker 1: kids with someone else. By seventy almost of kids between
Speaker 1: the ages of three and five were in some sort
Speaker 1: of daycare or preschool program. By then, the conversation about
Speaker 1: childcare was very different than it was before the war.
Speaker 1: It wasn't if women should go to work and leave
Speaker 1: their kids, It was what to do about the needs
Speaker 1: of working parents. In one Congress passed a bipartisan bill
Speaker 1: that would have created a national system of federally funded
Speaker 1: childcare centers. Tuition would be subsidized depending on a family's income.
Speaker 1: The cost was about two billion dollars, which would be
Speaker 1: around twelve point six billion dollars today. Congress sent the
Speaker 1: bill to President Richard Nixon. Here's Chris herpst again. So
Speaker 1: President Nixon had essentially on his desk a bill that
Speaker 1: would have provided universal, publicly provided childcare. He was reportedly
Speaker 1: in favor of this bill was set to sign it,
Speaker 1: but was ultimately dissuaded by some members of his senior staff.
Speaker 1: The reason the same ideas that had initially made daycare unpopular,
Speaker 1: that was bad for children and bad for mothers to
Speaker 1: have the government helped them raise their kids, even though
Speaker 1: the research had found otherwise. Pat Buchanan, the arch conservative,
Speaker 1: was advising Nixon in the White House. Philish Laughlely was
Speaker 1: railing against feminism on TV. They want this to be
Speaker 1: a right of all women, of all mothers to park
Speaker 1: their children in a daycare center at the taxpayers expense,
Speaker 1: So the women and be out fulfilling themselves somewhere. And
Speaker 1: this flows from their their rationale, their dogma that is
Speaker 1: so unfair that that mothers are expected to take care
Speaker 1: of their babies. The Republican right argued that child raising
Speaker 1: should be the sole prerogative and responsibility of families, or,
Speaker 1: as Shlapley would say, mothers. When Nixon vetoed the legislation,
Speaker 1: he said that it would weaken families. This was also
Speaker 1: during the Cold War, when state sponsored programs raised alarms
Speaker 1: about America descending into communism. Nixon said that communal approaches
Speaker 1: to child rearing went against the family centered approach. It
Speaker 1: was the closest we'd gotten to government subsidized childcare since
Speaker 1: the land Am Act, and after this veto it was dead.
Speaker 1: That didn't mean women stopped working or seeking out help
Speaker 1: from others for child care. Over the next forty years,
Speaker 1: even more women went to work and even more people
Speaker 1: sent their kids to daycare. Now almost seven percent of
Speaker 1: kids between the ages of three and five are enrolled
Speaker 1: in a preschool or daycare program, and that's where we
Speaker 1: are today. Of women with kids work, but we're still
Speaker 1: telling women that it's their job and their job alone
Speaker 1: to figure all of this out, that this is all
Speaker 1: on their shoulders, so they're forced to make impossible choices
Speaker 1: about work and family. Many of them tell us it's
Speaker 1: not working, and we see that in the data. That's
Speaker 1: the gender pay gap. Women's earnings suffer when they have kids.
Speaker 1: But things don't have to be this way. It's not
Speaker 1: that subsidized childcare is the be all and all solution
Speaker 1: for working parents or for closing the pay gap. But
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people on the left and
Speaker 1: the right agree there's a problem here. On the right,
Speaker 1: some are proposing tax credits for parents who stay home.
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren is trying to resurrect subsidized childcare, and politicians
Speaker 1: on the left and right have proposed new ways of
Speaker 1: paying for parental leave. I don't know exactly what the
Speaker 1: answer is, but when we take the needs of working
Speaker 1: women seriously, like we did back in World War Two,
Speaker 1: we see progress. And until we stop viewing this as
Speaker 1: a woman's problem. Women will keep internalizing that they're on
Speaker 1: their own, and then they blame themselves when they inevitably
Speaker 1: can't meet the unrealistic standards we've put on them. We
Speaker 1: heard that from so many of the women we spoke to.
Speaker 1: But then it also feels like this weight, It feels
Speaker 1: like this terrible way to that I feel horribly guilty
Speaker 1: that I leave her. I feel like I can't be
Speaker 1: doing my best at both at the same point in time,
Speaker 1: and that weighs on me. The main thing is just
Speaker 1: feeling like I am not doing a good job at
Speaker 1: either thing, like that I am failing simultaneously both the
Speaker 1: gift and the coast. For me, honestly, would be the balance.
Speaker 1: I love my children, obviously, and I also love my career.
Speaker 1: Um So, while I am very appreciative of the hours
Speaker 1: that I have, which are very very flexible, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I am saying when I have to miss, you know,
Speaker 1: certain events during the day, I find that I have
Speaker 1: this guilt that I'm not yet really making enough money
Speaker 1: to justify the cost of childcare. And so you think
Speaker 1: the logical solution would be, well, then why don't you
Speaker 1: stay home with the kids and not pay for childcare.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: I can't do that. I don't have the patience. I've
Speaker 1: tried on at different times or on different days to
Speaker 1: do part time daycare, and I actually find myself unable
Speaker 1: to spend ten hours alone, twelve hours alone with the
Speaker 1: kids by myself on any given day. It's just a
Speaker 1: lot of work and it's exhausting. One word keeps coming
Speaker 1: up in these women's stories. Guilt. They feel guilty when
Speaker 1: they have to leave their kids to go to work.
Speaker 1: They feel guilty when they're not doing enough at work.
Speaker 1: These women are doing so much and yet they still
Speaker 1: feel inadequate. Part of it is that they have expectations
Speaker 1: that are self imposed, meaning they feel like they have
Speaker 1: to be perfect at work, and they have to be
Speaker 1: perfect as a parent, and they have to be perfect
Speaker 1: as a partner, and it's just impossible. That was Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 1: She's a therapist, a calumnist for The Atlantic, where she's
Speaker 1: written about parenting extensively, and the author of Maybe You
Speaker 1: Should Talk To Someone. Asked her about how women can
Speaker 1: manage these feelings, and she says that parents can start
Speaker 1: to feel better as soon as they realize it's impossible
Speaker 1: to do it all. People aren't talking enough about what
Speaker 1: what you really have to do to make all of
Speaker 1: those pieces of the puzzle fit together, and they're not
Speaker 1: always going to fit perfectly, and they're going to be
Speaker 1: times when you have to let something go at home
Speaker 1: or you have to let something go at work, and
Speaker 1: it's not like you can do all of them at once.
Speaker 1: And I think if you if you go in with
Speaker 1: that orientation, you're gonna feel much better about the situation.
Speaker 1: Laurie says, it's not just that people need to realize
Speaker 1: that they're gonna miss things at work and at home.
Speaker 1: The research shows that kids do best with what Laurie
Speaker 1: calls the good enough parent. Most kids want the good
Speaker 1: enough mother, the helicopter mother, the mother who's always there
Speaker 1: that's bad for your kids, and so is the neglectful mother.
Speaker 1: But most of us are the good enough mother. And
Speaker 1: I think that you can also be the good enough worker,
Speaker 1: which means that you do your job really well. But
Speaker 1: they're going to be times when you know something gets
Speaker 1: in the way, and you can be the good enough
Speaker 1: partner as well. It all comes back to women feeling
Speaker 1: like it's their obligation to do everything on their own.
Speaker 1: They're trying to do everything at a level that you
Speaker 1: can't do all of those things at once. At that level,
Speaker 1: I think you have to be clear about what your
Speaker 1: needs are, clear about what your time constraints are, and
Speaker 1: ask for help. So many of us are so afraid
Speaker 1: to ask for help because we think that it implies
Speaker 1: that we're not competent, or we're weak, or something's wrong
Speaker 1: with us. We all need help. At the beginning of
Speaker 1: this season, I talked about my own mixed feelings about
Speaker 1: whether to have kids or not. After months of digging
Speaker 1: into the way motherhood affects careers and hearing from lots
Speaker 1: of working parents and other people who don't have or
Speaker 1: want kids, I'm no less ambivalent. One thing I am
Speaker 1: certain about is what it would take for me to
Speaker 1: feel satisfied as a parent and in my career. Lots
Speaker 1: of help and I wanted to be okay to admit
Speaker 1: that and also demand it, to demand it from institutions, companies,
Speaker 1: and our government because they're getting something out of it too.
Speaker 1: This is the last episode of season two of The Paycheck.
Speaker 1: If any of the stories resonated with you, or if
Speaker 1: you have a story of your own, we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you. Leave us a voicemail at two on
Speaker 1: to six seven zero one six and thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please head on over to
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate, review, and
Speaker 1: subscribe to get updates in your feed. Hey, I'm Janet Paskin,
Speaker 1: an editor on the Paycheck. This was the final episode
Speaker 1: of the season, but next week we'll be back with
Speaker 1: an encore, a special show taped at the Bloomberg Equality
Speaker 1: Summit in London, where Rebecca is talking women's soccer, the
Speaker 1: World Cup and whether we'll ever see anything close to
Speaker 1: pay parity for female athletes. Watch your feeds, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be great. This show was hosted and reported by me
Speaker 1: Rebecca Greenfield and reported by Susan Burfield. This episode was
Speaker 1: edited by franchisea Levi and produced by Samantha Gadzick. We
Speaker 1: also had production help from Liz Smith, Jillian Goodman, Janet Haskin,
Speaker 1: and Laura Carlson. Special thanks to Magnus Hendrickson Toefer for has,
Speaker 1: Brian Bremner, Laura Zelango, Sharon Chen, Brendan Scott, and our
Speaker 1: calleaus in Singapore and Hong Kong. Our original music is
Speaker 1: by Leo Sidrin. Catherine Virginia did the illustrations on our
Speaker 1: show page, which you can find at bloomberg dot com.
Speaker 1: Slash the paycheck, and thanks to all the women and
Speaker 1: men who spoke to us for this episode and the
Speaker 1: entire series. Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts