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Speaker 1: I've spent the last few weeks listening to a lot

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Speaker 1: of moms, moms from all over the world with kids

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Speaker 1: of all ages who work in all sorts of different

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Speaker 1: jobs and industries. Each was cobbled together their own system

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Speaker 1: to make their lives, their kids, their relationships, their jobs work.

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Speaker 1: So there's a doctor's appointment, preschool function, etcetera. I will

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Speaker 1: move meetings around in order to accommodate those. I decided

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Speaker 1: to work part time now so that I could spend

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Speaker 1: more time with the kids. I work from home, so

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Speaker 1: my family responsibilities and never really stop. I have been

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Speaker 1: able to balance my workload by scheduling things like confidence calls, trainings,

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Speaker 1: or presentations around my daughter's naptimes to have a lot

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Speaker 1: of flexibility to handle work responsibilities. Um but fortunately my

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Speaker 1: husband also works evenings and weekends, so he has daytimes

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Speaker 1: to kind of pick up after school and do doctor's

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Speaker 1: appointments and dentists visits and things of that nature. I

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Speaker 1: actually really left my full time job to start my

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Speaker 1: own business so I could create more flexibility with my kids.

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Speaker 1: So the way we made it work well. First of all,

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Speaker 1: we moved to London because the firm asked me to

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Speaker 1: take out a business, so my wife quit her job,

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Speaker 1: so we actually made it work, basically replicating a straight

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Speaker 1: couple's life. These women told me all the ways they

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Speaker 1: were coping with the demands of work and parenting, but

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Speaker 1: the more they talked, the more you could hear that

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Speaker 1: despite all of these strategies, it's still not really working.

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Speaker 1: I just want to add the sheer exhaustion that both

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Speaker 1: of us feel, and I think this isn't unique to

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Speaker 1: being a mom, and I think my husband also feel

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Speaker 1: this feels this way at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: You've spent all day working and then you come home

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Speaker 1: and you have to run around after a toddler. I

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Speaker 1: wish I was able to do my entire job at

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Speaker 1: work and then come home and be a parent, but

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Speaker 1: actually I work every night. I think that's what surprised

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Speaker 1: me the most, that I need to be really present

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Speaker 1: with my kids, but that the work doesn't stop. And

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Speaker 1: find myself incredibly emotionally drained just from the work that

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Speaker 1: I do, and then to have to come home and

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Speaker 1: not really be able to recharge in the same way

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Speaker 1: is a challenge. Just to put it that way, it's

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Speaker 1: a challenge. You don't really think about all that you

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Speaker 1: do as a mom because you have this surviving mentality

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Speaker 1: of I gotta do what I gotta do and it

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Speaker 1: just has to be done. Everything we've been hearing from

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Speaker 1: parents is backed up by data. There was this Pew

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Speaker 1: survey that came out a few years ago that gave

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Speaker 1: a portrait of the modern American family. In more households

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Speaker 1: than ever, both parents work, a huge change from the

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Speaker 1: way families looked less than half a century ago. That's

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Speaker 1: been good economically for families. Two income families make more

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Speaker 1: than twice as much as single income ones. But in

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Speaker 1: those two income households, both moms and dad's said they

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Speaker 1: feel stressed, hired, and like they lack quality time with

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Speaker 1: their children, friends, and partners. Right now, we're asking people

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Speaker 1: in two income to parent households to do three jobs,

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Speaker 1: one of which does not pay. In single parents, they're

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Speaker 1: doing two jobs for the price of one. The stress

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Speaker 1: of that is wearing on everyone. But even if you

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Speaker 1: don't have kids, this is your problem too. For those

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Speaker 1: who want to keep working at the same level, getting

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Speaker 1: pregnant and having a child often deals them an involuntary setback.

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Speaker 1: We are failing mama's and daddy's all across this country,

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Speaker 1: and we are failing our kids as will. You should

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Speaker 1: never say I'm ready to the baby. Am I ready

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Speaker 1: to lose my job? There was no single industry where

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Speaker 1: women aren't punished for appropriating. When men have children, they

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Speaker 1: experience a pay bump. When women have children, the opposite happens.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg cruns to the numbers and found that Wall Street

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Speaker 1: is the worst when it comes to gender pay gaps.

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Speaker 1: Gender is no longer the factor creating the greatest wage

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Speaker 1: discrepancy in this country. Motherhood is welcome to the paycheck.

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Speaker 1: I'm Rebecca Greenfield when I say the current system isn't working.

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Speaker 1: It's not just the emotional and mental toll it's taking

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Speaker 1: on people with kids. It's a bad deal for all

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Speaker 1: of us. We started the series talking about the gender

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Speaker 1: pay gap and why women on average in the US

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Speaker 1: make around less than men. We know motherhood is one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest contributing factors. Women with kids aren't able

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Speaker 1: to live the lives they want and make as much

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Speaker 1: money as they could be making. And we know that

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Speaker 1: dads are also penalized in their careers when they try

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Speaker 1: to help out at home. But the gender pay gap

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Speaker 1: and the motherhood penalty aren't just problems for women or

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Speaker 1: even parents. Right now, the rest of us we're benefiting

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Speaker 1: from women taking on the unpaid work of raising kids.

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Speaker 1: That may seem like a great deal, but as we've

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Speaker 1: explained this season, holding women back from fully participating in

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Speaker 1: the workforce hurts the economy. Making it financially untenable to

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Speaker 1: have kids also hurts the economy, and a weekend economy

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Speaker 1: is everybody's problem. Once we see this as everyone's problem,

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Speaker 1: it becomes easier to see that everyone is responsible for

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Speaker 1: the solutions, and societies can make huge changes when they

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Speaker 1: commit to supporting the needs of working women. How do

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Speaker 1: I know that, because there was one time in the

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Speaker 1: history of the United States when that happened. Everyone chipped

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Speaker 1: in to make the lives of working women easier, and

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Speaker 1: it was better not just for these women, but for

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Speaker 1: their children and the economy. Me During World War Two,

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Speaker 1: women went to work in greater numbers than ever before

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Speaker 1: because the country needed them to. That mean figuring out

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Speaker 1: what to do with their children while they spent their

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Speaker 1: days working. Susan Burfield looks at the brief moment when

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Speaker 1: the US government provided high qualities, subsidized childcare for working

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Speaker 1: women of Richmond ship Builders were women seven workers with

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Speaker 1: small children, inspired the founding of thirty five nursery school

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Speaker 1: units and ten extended day care centers, which mothered over

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred youngsters at a time. World War two was

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Speaker 1: a national emergency. Because of that, a lot of previously

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Speaker 1: unthinkable things became necessary. Women were recruited to work in

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Speaker 1: the very busy, very understaffed factories and shipyards. Rosie the

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Speaker 1: Riveter became a cultural icon, but what about Rosie's kids.

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Speaker 1: During the whole course of the war, the women start

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Speaker 1: to play more and more of a role in actual production,

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Speaker 1: and then we get to the point where, well, what

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Speaker 1: does it take for women to come into the into

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Speaker 1: the workforce? One of these conditions, the last element of

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Speaker 1: all this is childcare. Lincoln Cushing is the archivist at

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Speaker 1: Kaiser Permanente, a company that during the war was building

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Speaker 1: ships for the Merchant Marines using this new influx of

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Speaker 1: women workers. When millions of women rushed into the workforce,

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Speaker 1: many moved to the coast for jobs, and that meant

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Speaker 1: they didn't have family to look after their kids. They

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Speaker 1: had to scramble to come up with solutions. Newspapers published

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Speaker 1: shocking accounts of mothers leaving their kids in their cars,

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Speaker 1: near factories or outside schools until their shifts were over.

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Speaker 1: Some movie theaters were filled with children waiting for their moms.

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Speaker 1: It was obvious that something had to be done to

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Speaker 1: care for all these children, So, with some government funding,

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Speaker 1: Kaiser began to build daycare centers right there in the shipyards.

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Speaker 1: What persuaded companies and the government to solve the problem

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Speaker 1: wasn't just the tales of neglected kids. The widespread lack

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Speaker 1: of childcare was affecting their bottom line. Women with kids

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Speaker 1: often had to miss shifts, and that meant factories could

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Speaker 1: miss type production deadlines. America was at war and every

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Speaker 1: worker needed to be on duty. Still, having a company

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Speaker 1: watch over your kids and the government pay for it

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Speaker 1: wasn't popular At first. This was a new thing. The

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Speaker 1: idea that the government would be involved in childcare was

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Speaker 1: a was a pretty radical concept, and it was not

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Speaker 1: It was not an easy sell. There was a lot

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Speaker 1: of reason to believe that having industry or government take

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Speaker 1: care of your kid was a problematic situation. Up to then,

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Speaker 1: Americans generally thought of day care's custodial welfare, sometimes cruel.

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Speaker 1: It was used only by the poor and those who

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Speaker 1: didn't have family around. Most people still believed that children

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Speaker 1: should be cared for by a mother who stayed home

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Speaker 1: full time in order for them to grow up safe, happy,

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Speaker 1: and well adjusted. The war effort intensified, production ramped up,

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Speaker 1: and eventually the need for women to show up to

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Speaker 1: work on schedule became more and more obvious. Public opposition

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Speaker 1: to the child care centers began to fade. Having these

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Speaker 1: facilities was seen as a patriotic act, and that that

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Speaker 1: undercut a lot of the resistance to it as well.

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Speaker 1: Famous architects designed the centers for Kaiser in Oregon and

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Speaker 1: California right near the shipyards. Teachers ran them, nurses oversaw

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Speaker 1: medical clinics in the centers. The shipyards operated seven days

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Speaker 1: a week around the clock, so the centers did too.

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Speaker 1: The day started with a health inspection. There's first aid

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Speaker 1: facilities there, so if your kid is sick, your kid

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Speaker 1: is taking care of your kid. Kids inoculations, They had

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Speaker 1: art classes. They had people coming in to teach all

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Speaker 1: sorts of wonderful things. There were outdoor recreational activities. They

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Speaker 1: had nutritionists, on staff so that your child was getting

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Speaker 1: a well balanced meal. The children ate a baked apple,

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Speaker 1: scrambled eggs, holy toasted milk for breakfast. They got a

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Speaker 1: daily dose of cod liver oil. And when it was

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Speaker 1: time to go home, there was even more help for mothers.

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Speaker 1: For a small fee, a mother would be able to

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Speaker 1: pick up a meal at the end of her shift

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Speaker 1: and picking up her child so that you don't have

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Speaker 1: to just pick up your kid, go home and make dinner.

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Speaker 1: And it was all affordable for women. They were earning

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Speaker 1: union wages and the centers were subsidized by the government.

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Speaker 1: Mothers paid about fifty cents a day, the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: seven dollars today. The government ran similar child care centers

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Speaker 1: for other mothers involved in the war effort that weren't

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Speaker 1: connected to specific companies as the Kaiser centers were. What

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Speaker 1: made these centers possible, and the government subsidized ones like

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Speaker 1: Kaiser's was a piece of legislation that passed to nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty called the Landom Act. The initial intent of this

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Speaker 1: piece of legislation actually was not to provide or or

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Speaker 1: fund childcare programs. It was initially intended to fund the

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Speaker 1: construction and maintenance of big infrastructure projects that were necessary

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Speaker 1: to prepare the nation to go to war. That's Chris Herbst.

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Speaker 1: He's an associate professor at Arizona State University and an

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Speaker 1: expert on childcare. The inclusion of money for childcare in

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Speaker 1: the Landom Act has been called an inspired afterthought because

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Speaker 1: the money was essentially snuck in, there was no congressional debate,

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Speaker 1: and the program could get going quickly. It was the

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Speaker 1: first time in the nation's history that public money was

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Speaker 1: spent on daycare for kids who weren't poor. It wasn't universal,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't meet all the demand, but at the

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Speaker 1: peak in July, there were more than three thousands nurse

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Speaker 1: serving a hundred and thirty kids in communities involved in

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Speaker 1: the war effort. The total cost was about hundred million dollars,

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of a billion dollars today. The centers provided

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Speaker 1: one teacher for every ten kids, and they adjusted their

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Speaker 1: schedules and services depending on the community. This coincided with

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Speaker 1: women's shifts within factories. If you were a school aged child,

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Speaker 1: you generally attended these childcare programs for a fewer hours,

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Speaker 1: usually before school and after school. Uh these school aged

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Speaker 1: children received help with homework with music lessons. The primary

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Speaker 1: takeaway is that these programs were really flexible. They were

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Speaker 1: implemented in service of women's employment. But what about that

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Speaker 1: idea lots of people had that daycare was bad for children,

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Speaker 1: that it would damage the mother child relationship and harm kids.

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Speaker 1: Researchers interviewed mothers and looked at the center's records. Teachers

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Speaker 1: observed that of the kids made notice both social progress.

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Speaker 1: Every single one of the five mothers interviewed by the

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Speaker 1: researchers reported that their kids enjoyed nursery school. Many said

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Speaker 1: they became better mothers they were more patient at home. One,

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Speaker 1: a welder named Wilma Thatcher, called the center the best

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Speaker 1: thing that could happen for working mothers. Other research showed

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Speaker 1: that childcare helped kids become social beings and it reduced friction, nagging,

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Speaker 1: and quarreling between mothers and kids at home. Chris calls

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Speaker 1: them the high water mark of childcare in the US,

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Speaker 1: but they wouldn't last. The war ended, factories slowed production

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Speaker 1: for the military and began to prepare for the soldiers

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Speaker 1: to return. The government announced it would cut the funding

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Speaker 1: for the Landam Act centers Kaiser closed its own child

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Speaker 1: service centers, women protested. Eleanor Roosevelt wanted the centers to

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Speaker 1: remain open. Here's an excerpt from her syndicated column My Day.

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Speaker 1: The closing of child care centers throughout the country certainly

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Speaker 1: is bringing to light the fact that these centers were

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Speaker 1: a real need. Many thought they were purely a war

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Speaker 1: emergency measure. A few of us had an inkling that

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Speaker 1: perhaps they were in need, which was constantly with us,

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Speaker 1: but one that we had neglected to face in the past.

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Speaker 1: Now mothers have had the opportunity of going to work

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Speaker 1: and leaving their children in a center where they felt secure.

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Speaker 1: They knew that the children would be properly fed, given

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Speaker 1: supervised recreation and occupation, and medical care if necessary. They

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Speaker 1: were able to work better, and they were less exhausted physically.

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Speaker 1: But the men were coming back. The experiment was over.

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Speaker 1: The daycares existed for just a couple of years, but

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Speaker 1: they radically changed the way Americans thought about childcare. Mothers

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Speaker 1: could see and research confirmed that the kids thrived in

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Speaker 1: the group setting. The educational activities and healthcare gave them

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Speaker 1: a head start. The services, the meals, the mending, the

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Speaker 1: infirmary all reduced working women's stress. All of this helped

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Speaker 1: change the perception that childcare was bad for kids, and

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Speaker 1: Chris found that women whose kids were in the Landamax

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Speaker 1: centers tended to remain in the workforce after the war.

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Speaker 1: They probably became uh sort of fairly firmly entrenched in

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Speaker 1: the labor force uh. And so when the war ended

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Speaker 1: and men came home, they continued to to enjoy employments,

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Speaker 1: seek the benefits from employment, and likely worked throughout the

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Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Women continued working, but now they

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Speaker 1: had to manage without the subsidized childcare, without the medical

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Speaker 1: attention for the kids, and without the hot meals. The

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Speaker 1: women were left on their own to find affordable ways

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Speaker 1: to care for their kids while they went to work,

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Speaker 1: and it left women wondering if they would ever get

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Speaker 1: that much help again. High quality, government subsidized childcare didn't last,

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Speaker 1: but its legacy did. Over the next two decades, more

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Speaker 1: women entered the workforce and more women sent their kids

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Speaker 1: to daycare. Public attitude started to shift. It was no

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Speaker 1: longer considered fringe or negligent for mothers to leave their

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Speaker 1: kids with someone else. By seventy almost of kids between

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Speaker 1: the ages of three and five were in some sort

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Speaker 1: of daycare or preschool program. By then, the conversation about

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Speaker 1: childcare was very different than it was before the war.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't if women should go to work and leave

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Speaker 1: their kids, It was what to do about the needs

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Speaker 1: of working parents. In one Congress passed a bipartisan bill

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Speaker 1: that would have created a national system of federally funded

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Speaker 1: childcare centers. Tuition would be subsidized depending on a family's income.

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Speaker 1: The cost was about two billion dollars, which would be

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Speaker 1: around twelve point six billion dollars today. Congress sent the

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Speaker 1: bill to President Richard Nixon. Here's Chris herpst again. So

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Speaker 1: President Nixon had essentially on his desk a bill that

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Speaker 1: would have provided universal, publicly provided childcare. He was reportedly

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Speaker 1: in favor of this bill was set to sign it,

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Speaker 1: but was ultimately dissuaded by some members of his senior staff.

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Speaker 1: The reason the same ideas that had initially made daycare unpopular,

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Speaker 1: that was bad for children and bad for mothers to

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Speaker 1: have the government helped them raise their kids, even though

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Speaker 1: the research had found otherwise. Pat Buchanan, the arch conservative,

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Speaker 1: was advising Nixon in the White House. Philish Laughlely was

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Speaker 1: railing against feminism on TV. They want this to be

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Speaker 1: a right of all women, of all mothers to park

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Speaker 1: their children in a daycare center at the taxpayers expense,

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Speaker 1: So the women and be out fulfilling themselves somewhere. And

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Speaker 1: this flows from their their rationale, their dogma that is

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Speaker 1: so unfair that that mothers are expected to take care

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Speaker 1: of their babies. The Republican right argued that child raising

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Speaker 1: should be the sole prerogative and responsibility of families, or,

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Speaker 1: as Shlapley would say, mothers. When Nixon vetoed the legislation,

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Speaker 1: he said that it would weaken families. This was also

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Speaker 1: during the Cold War, when state sponsored programs raised alarms

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Speaker 1: about America descending into communism. Nixon said that communal approaches

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Speaker 1: to child rearing went against the family centered approach. It

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Speaker 1: was the closest we'd gotten to government subsidized childcare since

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Speaker 1: the land Am Act, and after this veto it was dead.

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Speaker 1: That didn't mean women stopped working or seeking out help

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Speaker 1: from others for child care. Over the next forty years,

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Speaker 1: even more women went to work and even more people

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Speaker 1: sent their kids to daycare. Now almost seven percent of

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Speaker 1: kids between the ages of three and five are enrolled

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Speaker 1: in a preschool or daycare program, and that's where we

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Speaker 1: are today. Of women with kids work, but we're still

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Speaker 1: telling women that it's their job and their job alone

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Speaker 1: to figure all of this out, that this is all

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Speaker 1: on their shoulders, so they're forced to make impossible choices

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Speaker 1: about work and family. Many of them tell us it's

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Speaker 1: not working, and we see that in the data. That's

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Speaker 1: the gender pay gap. Women's earnings suffer when they have kids.

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Speaker 1: But things don't have to be this way. It's not

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Speaker 1: that subsidized childcare is the be all and all solution

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Speaker 1: for working parents or for closing the pay gap. But

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people on the left and

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Speaker 1: the right agree there's a problem here. On the right,

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Speaker 1: some are proposing tax credits for parents who stay home.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren is trying to resurrect subsidized childcare, and politicians

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Speaker 1: on the left and right have proposed new ways of

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Speaker 1: paying for parental leave. I don't know exactly what the

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Speaker 1: answer is, but when we take the needs of working

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Speaker 1: women seriously, like we did back in World War Two,

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Speaker 1: we see progress. And until we stop viewing this as

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Speaker 1: a woman's problem. Women will keep internalizing that they're on

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Speaker 1: their own, and then they blame themselves when they inevitably

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Speaker 1: can't meet the unrealistic standards we've put on them. We

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Speaker 1: heard that from so many of the women we spoke to.

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Speaker 1: But then it also feels like this weight, It feels

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Speaker 1: like this terrible way to that I feel horribly guilty

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Speaker 1: that I leave her. I feel like I can't be

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Speaker 1: doing my best at both at the same point in time,

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Speaker 1: and that weighs on me. The main thing is just

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Speaker 1: feeling like I am not doing a good job at

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Speaker 1: either thing, like that I am failing simultaneously both the

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Speaker 1: gift and the coast. For me, honestly, would be the balance.

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Speaker 1: I love my children, obviously, and I also love my career.

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Speaker 1: Um So, while I am very appreciative of the hours

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Speaker 1: that I have, which are very very flexible, you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I am saying when I have to miss, you know,

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Speaker 1: certain events during the day, I find that I have

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Speaker 1: this guilt that I'm not yet really making enough money

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Speaker 1: to justify the cost of childcare. And so you think

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Speaker 1: the logical solution would be, well, then why don't you

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Speaker 1: stay home with the kids and not pay for childcare.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. I don't have the patience. I've

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Speaker 1: tried on at different times or on different days to

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Speaker 1: do part time daycare, and I actually find myself unable

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Speaker 1: to spend ten hours alone, twelve hours alone with the

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Speaker 1: kids by myself on any given day. It's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of work and it's exhausting. One word keeps coming

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Speaker 1: up in these women's stories. Guilt. They feel guilty when

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Speaker 1: they have to leave their kids to go to work.

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Speaker 1: They feel guilty when they're not doing enough at work.

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Speaker 1: These women are doing so much and yet they still

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Speaker 1: feel inadequate. Part of it is that they have expectations

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Speaker 1: that are self imposed, meaning they feel like they have

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Speaker 1: to be perfect at work, and they have to be

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Speaker 1: perfect as a parent, and they have to be perfect

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Speaker 1: as a partner, and it's just impossible. That was Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: She's a therapist, a calumnist for The Atlantic, where she's

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Speaker 1: written about parenting extensively, and the author of Maybe You

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Speaker 1: Should Talk To Someone. Asked her about how women can

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Speaker 1: manage these feelings, and she says that parents can start

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Speaker 1: to feel better as soon as they realize it's impossible

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Speaker 1: to do it all. People aren't talking enough about what

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Speaker 1: what you really have to do to make all of

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Speaker 1: those pieces of the puzzle fit together, and they're not

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Speaker 1: always going to fit perfectly, and they're going to be

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Speaker 1: times when you have to let something go at home

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Speaker 1: or you have to let something go at work, and

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Speaker 1: it's not like you can do all of them at once.

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Speaker 1: And I think if you if you go in with

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Speaker 1: that orientation, you're gonna feel much better about the situation.

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Speaker 1: Laurie says, it's not just that people need to realize

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Speaker 1: that they're gonna miss things at work and at home.

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Speaker 1: The research shows that kids do best with what Laurie

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Speaker 1: calls the good enough parent. Most kids want the good

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Speaker 1: enough mother, the helicopter mother, the mother who's always there

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Speaker 1: that's bad for your kids, and so is the neglectful mother.

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Speaker 1: But most of us are the good enough mother. And

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Speaker 1: I think that you can also be the good enough worker,

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Speaker 1: which means that you do your job really well. But

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Speaker 1: they're going to be times when you know something gets

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Speaker 1: in the way, and you can be the good enough

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Speaker 1: partner as well. It all comes back to women feeling

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Speaker 1: like it's their obligation to do everything on their own.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to do everything at a level that you

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Speaker 1: can't do all of those things at once. At that level,

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Speaker 1: I think you have to be clear about what your

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Speaker 1: needs are, clear about what your time constraints are, and

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Speaker 1: ask for help. So many of us are so afraid

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Speaker 1: to ask for help because we think that it implies

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Speaker 1: that we're not competent, or we're weak, or something's wrong

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Speaker 1: with us. We all need help. At the beginning of

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Speaker 1: this season, I talked about my own mixed feelings about

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Speaker 1: whether to have kids or not. After months of digging

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Speaker 1: into the way motherhood affects careers and hearing from lots

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Speaker 1: of working parents and other people who don't have or

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Speaker 1: want kids, I'm no less ambivalent. One thing I am

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Speaker 1: certain about is what it would take for me to

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Speaker 1: feel satisfied as a parent and in my career. Lots

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Speaker 1: of help and I wanted to be okay to admit

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Speaker 1: that and also demand it, to demand it from institutions, companies,

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Speaker 1: and our government because they're getting something out of it too.

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Speaker 1: This is the last episode of season two of The Paycheck.

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Speaker 1: If any of the stories resonated with you, or if

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Speaker 1: you have a story of your own, we'd love to

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Speaker 1: hear from you. Leave us a voicemail at two on

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Speaker 1: to six seven zero one six and thank you for listening.

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Speaker 1: If you like the show, please head on over to

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate, review, and

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Speaker 1: subscribe to get updates in your feed. Hey, I'm Janet Paskin,

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Speaker 1: an editor on the Paycheck. This was the final episode

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Speaker 1: of the season, but next week we'll be back with

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Speaker 1: an encore, a special show taped at the Bloomberg Equality

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Speaker 1: Summit in London, where Rebecca is talking women's soccer, the

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Speaker 1: World Cup and whether we'll ever see anything close to

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Speaker 1: pay parity for female athletes. Watch your feeds, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be great. This show was hosted and reported by me

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Greenfield and reported by Susan Burfield. This episode was

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Speaker 1: edited by franchisea Levi and produced by Samantha Gadzick. We

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Speaker 1: also had production help from Liz Smith, Jillian Goodman, Janet Haskin,

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Speaker 1: and Laura Carlson. Special thanks to Magnus Hendrickson Toefer for has,

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Speaker 1: Brian Bremner, Laura Zelango, Sharon Chen, Brendan Scott, and our

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Speaker 1: calleaus in Singapore and Hong Kong. Our original music is

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Speaker 1: by Leo Sidrin. Catherine Virginia did the illustrations on our

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Speaker 1: show page, which you can find at bloomberg dot com.

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Speaker 1: Slash the paycheck, and thanks to all the women and

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Speaker 1: men who spoke to us for this episode and the

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Speaker 1: entire series. Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts