1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Hey, Orney, what is your go to snack these days? 2 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Have you met me? Bananas? Of course, I knew you 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: were going to say that. I knew I was predicted 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: bulls like. I thought about saying something else, but you didn't. Yeah, 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: then I figured you were expecting me to say something else, 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: so saying banana was maybe the real surprise. Well that's 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: very clever, but I actually predicted that to what impossible? 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: Did you also predict what I'm gonna say next? Like 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: weasel or yah my lama ding dong? Totally, that's exactly 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: what I predicted. What how is impossible? Well? I wrote 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: the script for this goal open, Yes, but I always 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: go off script. Yes, but you do so very predictably. Hi. 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm or Hamming, cartoonists and the co author of Frequently 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: Asked Questions about the Universe. Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: particle physicist and a professor at U C Irvine, and 16 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm also quite predictable. Oh yeah, do you have a 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: regular routine that you always stick to? I do two 18 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: podcast episodes a week with my friend Jorge. Oh my goodness, 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: that's a surprise that you're still friends with this horr 20 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: guy and that people are still listening. But what do 21 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: you mean you did not like surprises? I am a 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: creature of habit. I like to lay out my schedule 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: and follow it. My wife, on the other hand, likes 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: spontaneous adventure, so you know, at least some interesting conversation. 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: What about like lunch, Do you know what you're gonna 26 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: eat for lunch every day? I do? Yeah, I eat 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: exactly nothing for lunch every day, So it's quite predictable. 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: That makes choosing easy. You don't have to think about 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: it because there's nothing to think about exactly. And you know, 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: in our family, we used to argue a lot about 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: what to eat for dinner, and then we hammered it 32 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: out into a weekly schedule. So we have you know, 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: pasta on Mondays and tacos on two days, cetera, etcetera. Oh, 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: my goodness, completely predictable then until the end of time. 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: But what kind of tacos? See, that's a big question, 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, there's always room for improvisation. Yeah, we have 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: to talk about it every time. Yeah, do you have 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: corn or tias or flower tortillas? Is that in your 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: schedule too? Oh we make our own tortillas. Yeah, corner 40 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: flower combination corn and flour, corner and flower. Yeah, a 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: little bit of each. It's like a quantum taco. It's 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: a superposition. It's super taco and flower. Oh man, that's crazy. 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: Is it also chicken and carnitas. It's delicious, is what 44 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: it is. But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of My Heart Radio, 46 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: in which we roll up all the deliciousness of the 47 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: universe into a corn and flower and talk tortilla and 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: serve it all up to you. We fill that taco 49 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: up with the incredible mysteries that are the universe, the 50 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: weird quantum effects that seem to govern the microscopic nature 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: of reality, and the incredible emergent phenomena that we enjoy 52 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: and gaze at every night when we look at the stars. 53 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: We wonder about all of it. We talk about all 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: of it, We explain all of it, and we take 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: a big bite out of all of it with you. 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: That's right, we talk about it with you because it 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: is a pretty delicious and amazing universe ready to be 58 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: rolled up and sandwich between amazing conversation and that jokes. 59 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: Hold on, do we just move from tacos to sandwiches 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: because like, not the same thing, man, well kind of. 61 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: I think traditional tacos have two tortillas and then you 62 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: roll them up what or fold them? What are you 63 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: talking about? Seriously? You know how to taco from a 64 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: taco truck. Yeah, but that's two tortillas underneath the filling, right, 65 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: that's not the same as a sandwich and then you 66 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: fold them over right. Gosh, so you're sandwiching kind of 67 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: things between them, right, you're seeing a sandwich and a 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: taco or topologically equivalent. We are waiting into a big 69 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: question here. Pretty you're gonna be saying a hot dog 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: is a taco? Mathematical food science? Yeah, well, I think 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: that pizzas and tacos and sandwiches are topologically non identical. Well, 72 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: here's a question. Is a cauzone a pizza taco really? 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Or a pizza sandwich? That's like second root of food 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: food calculus. There, I think I have to go ask 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: my friends in the math department about that one. Yes, 76 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that. But it 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: is a wonderful universe full of amazing and incredible things 78 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: that sometimes seem kind of unpredictable. And random and chaotic, 79 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: But it's amazing that we've sort of looked out into 80 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: the universe and figured out that there is a little 81 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: bit of order to all of that. There are laws 82 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: to the universe. Yeah. The great sweep of philosophy and 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: science is you try to look out in universe and 84 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: to wonder, are there laws that describe the incredible complexity 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: that we see in the universe. Is that lightning striking 86 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: that tree because it's determined by some physical law or 87 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: is it just some god up there getting angry and 88 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: deciding to smite that tree? And the universe actually be 89 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: described in a compact set of mathematical rules which determine 90 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: everything that happened, or is there still a little bit 91 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: of fuzz left in those rules? Yeah? And if there 92 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: are laws that govern how the universe works down to 93 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: the atomic and particle level, does that mean that the 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: universe is totally predictable because if it follows laws, then 95 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: you know what it's going to do. Right, That's exactly right. 96 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: And a few hundred years ago there was this growing 97 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: realization that, wow, the universe does seem to be kind 98 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: of explainable. And if the universe is explainable, even on 99 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: a microscopic scale. Doesn't that mean it's explainable on a 100 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: macroscopic scale. If everything is made out of tiny little 101 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: billiard balls, and you can describe and predict what happens 102 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: when two billiard balls bump into each other, then in principle, 103 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: can't you describe and predict what happens when ten to 104 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: the twenties six billiard balls bump into each other? Or 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: even if you can't describe it computationally, doesn't that mean 106 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: that it is determined? It's decided in advance. Yeah, it's 107 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: kind of this idea that we sort of started to 108 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: realize this we came to understand science and physics a 109 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: little bit more. It's kind of this idea that maybe 110 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: the universe was kind of like a giant clock, right, 111 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: that everything was like clockwork, and that you could totally 112 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: maybe predict or at least it seemed possible to predict 113 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: what the universe was going to do in the long term, 114 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: and sort of mind blowing, right to imagine that these 115 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: tiny little brains on this little rock in the corner 116 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: of the universe could like derive physical laws, could like 117 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: get the universe to reveal its actual underlying mechanism and 118 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: that might determine the whole future of the universe. I mean, 119 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: like what humors, right, what incredible ego to imagine that 120 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: we could understand the universe and predict its future, that 121 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: we could like reveal its deepest mechanism, the rules that 122 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: like force it to operate in a certain way. There 123 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: must have been a mind blowing sort of moment for physicists. Yeah, 124 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: it's pretty crazy. It's like a crazy plot twism. I 125 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: wonder if the universe predicted that too. And it's sort 126 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: of terrifying and also of relief. You know, Like it's 127 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: terrifying to imagine that the universe is totally pre pdictable 128 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and that we are all sort of like locked into 129 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: a future that's determined by the past. But it's also 130 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: sort of terrifying to think that the universe like doesn't 131 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: make sense or doesn't follow laws, that there are like 132 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: capricious beings up there that could just like decide what 133 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: gets that by lightning instead of you know, following some rules. 134 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: I don't know which universe is more terrifying. I mean, 135 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: I guess the one that's unpredictable. It's more terrifying to 136 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: you Danny, all right, yeah, exactly. That was an hard question. 137 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: But emotionally it's sort of fascinating, you know, to think 138 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: about being locked into these physical laws. Of course, as 139 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: a person, as an individual, I want to know what 140 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: those laws are and how they work and spend my 141 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: life unraveling that mystery. But to imagine that the universe 142 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: is locked in, that everything that you do and that 143 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,679 Speaker 1: happens to you is determined by what happened in the past, 144 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: that is sort of scary. Yeah. I feel like this 145 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: is getting a little psychological here, Daniel. Is physics for 146 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: you just one big quest to find order in the 147 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: universe and predictability. I do this instead of going to therapy. 148 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: It's a lot cheaper to probably I get paid to 149 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: do this instead of paying someone to do that to you. No, 150 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: I think it's psychological because it's philosophical. And the reason 151 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: that we do physics is because there are big consequences 152 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: to the answers that we reveal. When we learn the 153 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: nature of the universe, it tells us something about what 154 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: it's like to be human and what the rules are 155 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: and what the boundaries are for our lives. And so 156 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there are big psychological imvocations to understanding 157 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: how the universe works, and so upen to maybe about 158 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago. We thought that maybe the universe 159 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: was like a big clock and that you could predict 160 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: what it was going to do like a giant instead 161 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: of clockward gears following Uton's laws. But then somebody learned 162 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: that things aren't quite that way at the molecular level, 163 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: at the atomic level. That's right. You might be puzzling 164 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: over why we're talking about the universe as deterministic, because 165 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics paints a different picture of the universe at 166 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: its very smallest scale. Even though you're made out of 167 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: ten to the twenty six little objects, those objects are 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: quantum objects, and they don't follow the same rules as 169 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: billiard balls or baseballs or any other kind of balls. 170 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: They might not even be balls. They follow very strange rules, 171 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: and their futures are not necessarily determined by their past. 172 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: Are we talking about strange balls in this episode? That 173 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: I feel like this might be going into not safe 174 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: for work territory. But as you said, we learned that 175 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics cells is that there is sort of like 176 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: an adherent randomness in the universe. At the very smallest levels, 177 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: like there are things we can't possibly ever know, Like 178 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: there's a certain uncertainty um at the very smallest levels 179 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: of velocity and position. Yeah, it gives you a really 180 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: different view of how the universe works, right, like the 181 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: fundamental mechanism for how things operated the smallest level and 182 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: really fascinating twist. Of course, it doesn't change how things 183 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: work at the large level, right, Like you and me 184 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: and baseballs and billiard balls can all still be deterministic, 185 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: even if we're made out of tiny little things which 186 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: are fundamentally fuzzy. I guess you can still predict what 187 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: strange police are going to do. You can still predict 188 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: that they will make Daniel giggle on the podcast. Yeah, 189 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: so that was a big revolution in our thinking, going 190 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: from like things are like clockwork in the universe too, 191 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: maybe there's an inherent unpredictability or randomness to the universe 192 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: that we can never ever predict, right. Yeah. It was 193 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: a big shift and also maybe a bit of a relief, right, Like, oh, 194 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: it turns out that maybe I'm not locked into a 195 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: set of consequences that were determined by everything that happened 196 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: in my childhood. You know, and there's philosophical consequences there. 197 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: People wonder if it means there might be free will 198 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: because our actions are not predetermined. So this question of 199 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical randomness and free will and like human autonomy 200 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: and the soul and all this kind of stuff. There's 201 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: been a lot of discussion about what it means for 202 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: the universe to be fundamentally random, right, because I guess 203 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: if tiny little particles are sort of random, right, or 204 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: they act in random ways, then that means that you 205 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,599 Speaker 1: add them up, then maybe like people are random to 206 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,599 Speaker 1: or like unpredictable. At least there's a whole field of 207 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: people trying to understand whether quantum particles and their randomness 208 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: actually do add up to unpredictability for larger objects like 209 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: me and you and hippos, or if it's more like baseballs, 210 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: where the quantum randomness sort of like averages out and 211 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: doesn't affect the path of a baseball. So that's been 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: kind of our thinking for the last hundred years, that 213 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: things are random at a fundamental level, But maybe things 214 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: are starting to come back around from that today. That's right. 215 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: There are a series of experiments in the last few 216 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: decades which seem to conclusively prove that the universe is 217 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: fundamentally quantum mechanical, that it is not deterministic at the 218 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: smallest scale. But there's a lot of controversy about those 219 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: experiments and exactly what they mean and what the loopholes 220 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: are in those experiments, and there's some really fun ideas 221 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: that might be able to recover deterministic thinking about our universe. 222 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: So today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question 223 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: what is super determinism. I thought you were going to 224 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: say that in a sort of like a Superman voice. 225 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: Super determinism is that like the alter ego of mild 226 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: Manner determinism? Exactly? Determinism just works in the local newspaper 227 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: and wears glasses. Did it escape from a dying planet 228 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: in a pod? Yeah, it must have a fatal flaw. 229 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: So what is the fatal flaw of super determinism. I 230 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: think it's quantum mechanic paps, it's physics site kryptonite quantum mechanics. 231 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: But this is an interesting idea. I feel like we've 232 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: we're sort of swinging back and forth like a pendulum, 233 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: like we thought we were like clockwork and deterministic, but 234 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: then then quantum mechanics came around and we realized things, 235 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: we're actually kind of random, but now it's kind of 236 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: swinging all the other way around. That says that maybe 237 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics is not totally random. Yeah, and I think 238 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: it's because it's hard to grapple with the consequences of 239 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: these experiments. If you accept that the universe is fundamentally random, 240 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: like that is weird man in even if it gives 241 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: you an opportunity to not be predictable and you like that, 242 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: it is strange to think about the universe picking numbers 243 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: at random, deciding for every electron, so it's going to 244 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: go left or oh, it's going to go right. That 245 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: is really funky and it really counter to our intuitive 246 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: understanding of how the universe works. And so that's been 247 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: very difficult for people, including physicists right like Einstein, to swallow. 248 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: And so it makes people think creatively and try to 249 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: like find ways around it, like are you really sure 250 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,359 Speaker 1: that it has to be that way? Couldn't it possibly 251 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: actually still be deterministic? Yeah, But it's always good to 252 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: ask these questions because you never know maybe what do 253 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: you think is true is actually not true. You just 254 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: have to ask the question and come up with the experiment. 255 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: I remember, it's the experiments that really tell us what 256 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: we know. It's thought about these theoretical constructs. It's about 257 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: what the experiments have said, and so it's really crucial 258 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: to understand what are the loopholes in those experiments, what 259 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: did they really measure, and what did that actually tell 260 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: us about the universe, because sometimes all the interesting stuff 261 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: is in the loopholes. So as usually are wondering how 262 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: many people out there had heard of this theory of 263 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: super determinism, So Daniel went out there into the wild 264 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: of the internet. I think right, yep. These come from 265 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: our cadre of Internet volunteers who are willing to answer 266 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: weird philosophical questions about tricky physics topics without any chance 267 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: to look things up. So thank you very much to 268 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: everybody who participated. If you enjoy hearing these and you'd 269 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: like to hear your voice on the podcast, please don't 270 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: be shy. Right to us. Two questions at Daniel and 271 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: Jorge dot com. To think about it for a second, 272 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: what do you think super determinism is? Here's what people 273 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: have to say. It sounds like a made up word. Um, 274 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: so I'm going to say it's the kind of intense 275 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: determination than has exhibited when obtaining the infinity stones. I 276 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: have absolutely no idea. I'm going to say it has 277 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: something to do with um, the fact that I've heard 278 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: it said we actually have no free will and cause 279 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: an effect stems from entropy or something like that. I 280 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: don't know. I guess that super determinism means that the 281 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: universe at the macroscopic level is predictable. It does indeed 282 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: act like clockwork because of the quantum effects being statistically 283 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: averaged away on a large scale. So perhaps at the 284 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: macroscopic level, God doesn't play dice. Well. I don't know exactly, 285 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: but it must be something, something interesting because starts with 286 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: super I think it has to do with determinism, with 287 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: the fact that knowing a particles position and velocity at 288 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: any given time, you could determine the position and velocity 289 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: of that particle at any other point in time, so 290 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: you could say that the future is fixed. I say 291 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: it has something to do with that super determinism is 292 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: something that only philosophers worry about at night or particle physicists, 293 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: and it must have to do with fate destiny. If 294 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: determinism is just things being very determined. Super determinism would 295 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: be things being very much very determined. So I guess 296 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: like that everything is very much predetermined, so like extreme 297 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: cause and effect of things and particles. I don't know. 298 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna guess on this one. Also, I think, 299 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, determinism is the fact that there's no such 300 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: thing as free will, So maybe super determinism is the 301 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: opposite that there is a way to find free will 302 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: in the world. All right, very determined answers, very very determined, 303 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: a little predictable. Though I knew that were going to 304 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: say this exactly. Some people here confused it with the 305 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: idea of being determined, like having a lot of purpose 306 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: and will power. Yeah, I think my teenagers are super deterministic. 307 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're determined to be undetermined. They determined not to 308 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: listen to me. So let's dive into this, Daniel, super determinism. 309 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: I guess determinism wasn't doing it, so they have to 310 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: call in superdeterminism, you know, as reinforcements. But then, who knows, 311 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: maybe the next episode will cover ultra quantum mechanics. Quantum 312 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: you knock it down, We just come back with something stronger. 313 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: So maybe it's start with the basics. Here is there 314 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: sort of like a physical or mathematical definition of determinism. 315 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: So a deterministic view of the universe is one in 316 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: which the future is completely determined by the past. So 317 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: you have a set of initial conditions, meaning like you 318 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: know the location and the velocity of every object in 319 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: the universe, and you have rules for what's going to 320 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: happen to those next, including like collisions or near misses. 321 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: Then you can predict exactly what's going to happen. So 322 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: the future is determined by the past. The initial conditions 323 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: and the rules of the universe determine exactly what will happen. 324 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: It's a deterministic set of laws, right, Like if you 325 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: have a little ball, strange or not, and you have 326 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: a little ball and you know where it is and 327 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: what velocity it's going at, you can sort of know 328 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: the future, right Like you know the trajectory that bought 329 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: gonna take through the air, and you know where it's 330 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: going to land and soil you can go there and 331 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: catch it. That's really like predicting the future, right, It 332 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: really is predicting the future. And when I was a 333 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: high school or first taking physics. That's the thing that 334 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: attracted me to it the most. I was like, oh 335 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: my gosh, you can actually predict the future with physics. 336 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: It's sort of incredible. It's an amazing power, and it's 337 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: something that you also sort of know intuitively. Right, if 338 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: you're throwing the ball to somebody who's running with your 339 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: fast you know sort of how to throw so that 340 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: it gets to them at the right moment. You know, 341 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: you factor in their velocity, in their direction, and all 342 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. You don't expect that when you 343 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: throw the ball it's going to take like a random 344 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: left turn or a random right turn. You think that 345 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: mostly it follows the same rules. And that's why we 346 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: practice sports, right, pictures practice pitching because they can throw 347 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: the ball the same way over and over again and 348 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: get it into the captures Mith right, right. Unless you're 349 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 1: using strange balls, then who knows what they thought? We 350 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: were staying away from that joke, man. Predictably, I cannot 351 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: strange balls and strange strikes in this case. So that's 352 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: the deterministic university idea that, like, you know, if you 353 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: can predict where a ball is gonna allod mebe you 354 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: can predict everything down to like planets and galaxies, and 355 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: also down to the small levels, like you know, it's 356 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: tiny little particles if they move like little balls, and 357 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: you can sort of predict what they're gonna do, and 358 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: you can maybe predict the entire universe exactly. So that's fascinating. 359 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: But then, of course quantum mechanics sort of up ends that, right. 360 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics says that things are not determined. Things are 361 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: sort of random at a very basic level, like you 362 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: can't know something's position of velocity perfectly. And it's important 363 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: to understand what quantum mechanics sort of does and doesn't 364 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: say about the universe. It doesn't say that like things 365 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: are totally random, that electrons just like do whatever they want. 366 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: You know, there's no like brain in their deciding. There's 367 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: just going to cruise over here and cruise over there. Right, 368 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics is still deterministic in one way, it's just 369 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: not deterministic about specific outcomes. Instead, it's deterministic about probabilities. 370 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: Like quantum mechanics, there are laws and it says the 371 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: electron has a certain probability to be here in a 372 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,479 Speaker 1: certain probability to be there that's fixed based on the 373 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: previous data, Like what happened to the electron in the 374 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: past determines the probabilities for its future. It just doesn't 375 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: determine the actual outcome. When it comes to like measuring 376 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: where the electron is, the universe then decides, well, is 377 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: it actually over here or is it actually over there? 378 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: Is it's beIN up or is it spin down? So 379 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: the actual specific outcome for a quantum object isn't determined 380 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: until you measure it, but the probabilities are determined in advance. Right, 381 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: Although in quantum mechanics, isn't it sort of impossible to 382 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: know the initial conditions of something of like an electron 383 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: or a particle that you can't ever know where it 384 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: is and where it's going, right, You're exactly right. You 385 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: can't know all of the information about its specific location 386 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: and its velocity. Here, what we mean is you know 387 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: it's quantum state, which includes all of that fuzz So 388 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: if you know the quantum state of the electron, it's 389 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: probability for where it is right now, then you can 390 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: predict its quantum state in the future. It's probabilities for 391 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: where it's going to be in the future. So you 392 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: have an electron over here and it's doing something. You 393 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: don't know exactly where it is, but it has some 394 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: probabilities to be here there, and you do something out 395 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: of like you fire a photon at it, then you 396 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: can predict what its new probabilities are, So you don't 397 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: have to know exactly where it was, but you can 398 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: predict how it's probabilities will evolve with time. Right, it's 399 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: almost like if you throw a ball, you don't know 400 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: if it's going to be a right or left, but 401 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: you know that half of the time maybe it's gonna 402 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: veer right and half of the time it's gonna bear 403 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: to the left, but you know you don't know in 404 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: any particular throw which way it's going to hear exactly. 405 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: Or if you roll to dice, then you know what 406 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: the distribution of outcomes are, even though you don't know 407 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: what any individual outcome are. Now that's a little bit 408 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: of a tricky analogy because dice actually are deterministic, and 409 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: the reason you don't know the outcome is not because 410 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: they're truly quantum mechanical and random. They're actually just chaotic, 411 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: so it's approximately random. The universe we think is actually random, 412 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: but it's sort of in the same way that it 413 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: describes the probabilities of various outcomes very specifically, but doesn't 414 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: actually pick which outcome until you collapse the wave function. 415 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,239 Speaker 1: For those of you who wonder, like, well, how does 416 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: that happen? Does it mean to collapse the wave function? 417 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: What's going on there? Check out our episode about wave 418 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: functions and collapse with Adam Becker. Cool. So that's kind 419 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 1: of the prevailing view of the universe, that it's quantum 420 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: mechanical and that it's random at a very fundamental level, 421 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: that it's not deterministic. But maybe there's something wrong with 422 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: the experiments that natives think that way. So let's get 423 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: into what those experiments are and what is superdeterminism. But 424 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: first let's take a quick break. Alright, we're talking about superdeterminism, 425 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: which is I guess it's superpower determinism, Like it can 426 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: run faster than a speeding prediction. Yeah, exactly, it's a 427 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: souped up version. It's got like, you know, extra exhaust, 428 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: and it's a low rider. It's a shiny paint. Should 429 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: have gone with turbot determinism. That would have been a 430 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: more fun name. So there's this idea that quantum mechanics 431 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: tells us that the universe is random and a pretty ball, 432 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: and you can actually sort of test this, right, Like 433 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: you can do an experiment that tells you if something 434 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: truly is random or not, or maybe like it's actually 435 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: not random, but you just think it's random. Yeah, because 436 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: when this whole idea came out, people were skeptical because 437 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: you don't see this process, right. You can never like 438 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: see the universe going from fuzzy to specific, going from 439 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: like the electron has a probability to do this to 440 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: the electron is actually here. You can't observe that process 441 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: because of course any observation collapses the way function. So 442 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: people were wondering, like, how do we know this is real? 443 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: How do we know that the path the electron isn't 444 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: actually just determined? But there's some like information we're missing, 445 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: you know, like the electron was going to go that 446 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 1: way the whole time, we just didn't know it. You're 447 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: not comfortable thinking about electrons, you know, think about scenario 448 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: where you have, for example, two balls, a red one 449 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: and a blue one, and you put one red ball 450 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: in a bag and the blue ball in another bag. 451 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: So you can't see them, and then you and your 452 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: friend just like randomly picked bags. You look in your bag, 453 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: You're gonna have either a red ball or a blue ball, right, 454 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: And you might say, oh, well, it was determined the 455 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: whole time, Like the ball is either red or blue 456 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: the whole time. Right. It's not like magic that I 457 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: have a red ball or a blue ball. And so 458 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: people are wondering, like if the same thing holds for 459 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 1: quantum particles, like are they actually determined in advance? How 460 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: can we tell the difference between they're being really random 461 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: until the moment you check for them having been determined 462 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: the whole time. Right. That's kind of the basis of 463 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: this famous experiment that sort of proves the randomness of 464 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics called Bell's experiment, Right. It it's sort of 465 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: like if you take, as you say, at a red 466 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: ball and a blue ball, and you put them each 467 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: into bags so you can't see their color, and then 468 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: I guess, what do you do? You like hide them 469 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: behind your back and makes them up, and then you 470 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: give one to one person and they know they want 471 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: to the other person. It's not like the ball suddenly 472 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: lose their color or they're both colors at the same time. 473 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, one of them clearly has the 474 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: red ball and the other one clearly has the blue wall. 475 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: We just don't know what it is. And so that's 476 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: kind of the alternative to the idea of randomness and 477 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. It's like, well, that's not like the balls 478 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: like do something magical. We just don't know which balls 479 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: in which back exact. And the philosophically that goes by 480 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: the name of hidden variables. People think, well, maybe there's 481 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: just some information we don't have access to, so it 482 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: seems random to us, but it's not actually random, right, 483 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: there's some hidden variables, some details, some information that's being 484 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: carried along with the ball or the electron whatever that's 485 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: determining the actual outcome, and you can't actually change it. 486 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: The quantum mechanics is a very different view, right, And 487 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: the analogy of the balls, it would be like, you know, 488 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: the ball has not always been read or always been 489 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: blued the whole time. It has a probability to be either, 490 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: and it's in some weird quantum mechanical mixture state that 491 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: you can never see. But once you look at it 492 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: and boom, it collapses into red or blue. And the 493 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: craziest thing about the quantum mechanical interpretation is that this 494 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: can happen even if you're really far apart, Like you know, 495 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: if I take one bag and you take the other bag, 496 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: and we got on spaceships and go ten light years 497 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: in opposite directions and then look at our bags simultaneously, 498 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics says that those balls are not determined until 499 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: one of us looks. If I look at my bag 500 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: and I see red, then your bag instantaneously is from 501 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: undetermined to blue, even if you're ten light years away 502 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: from me. So that's the part that really got people confused, 503 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: especially Einstein and his collaborators, and made him think like 504 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: this can't be true because it would mean that the 505 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: universe is like non local, that this is like instantaneous 506 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: effect that happens across space time, which really bothered folks 507 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: like Einstein, right, because as soon as you open one bag, 508 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: you're sort of like you're determining what the other bag 509 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: is gonna be, even though it's really far away, exactly right, 510 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: And I guess the interesting thing is that the universe 511 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: or quantum mechanics seems to have these bags in them, right, 512 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: Like there's some something about the universe sort of obscures 513 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: things or hides them from us until we actually look 514 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: at them. Right. That's a weird thing about the universe. Right, 515 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: It's a very weird thing about the universe. And it 516 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: relies on this interpretation or quantum mechanics called the Copenhagen interpretation. 517 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: Says that quantum objects or quantum objects and they like, 518 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: have weird fuzziness to them, and that's cool, except when 519 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: a classical object like a person, looks at them, that 520 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they collapse and they can only 521 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: have one possible result instead of having probabilities of multiple results. 522 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: And as we've talked about the podcast a lot, that's 523 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: really problematic because we don't know what we mean by 524 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: classical object. We talked about this in the quantum eraser experiment. 525 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: It's really weird and fuzzy. And so there are other 526 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: views of quantum mechanics that try to avoid this, like 527 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: bowl mean mechanics that says that there are these weird 528 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: initial conditions. But all this weird quantum behavior was described 529 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: by Einstein as spooky action at a distance, like he 530 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine a way for the universe to do that 531 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: if I look at my ball and it goes from 532 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: like undetermined to red, that somehow that's going to make 533 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: your ball go from undetermined to blue. He couldn't imagine 534 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: that happening. He proposes as a thought experiment. He was like, 535 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: isn't this ridiculous. Here's an example of what your quantum 536 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: mechanics would have to do for it to work. So 537 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: then John Bell came up with a series of experiments, 538 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: try to see if we could tell the difference. Can 539 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: you tell the difference between those balls being actually determined 540 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: the whole time or them being undetermined until the moment 541 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: you look at them and those wave functions sort of 542 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: sign multaneously collapsing across space time, right, And I think 543 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: the idea is that, you know, if you do this 544 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: experiment or this like hiding balls and put them in 545 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: bags and take them far apart with like actual physical 546 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: billiard balls, like a red Billard ball and a blue 547 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: Buildard ball, then there's no question, like there's no randomness 548 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: in there, right, Like there is an actual blue ball 549 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: in my bag and an actual red ball in your bag. 550 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: There's no randoms there. But the I think the idea 551 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: is that if you do it with electrons or something 552 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: really really small, where you maybe have with some experiment 553 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: that takes an electron and splits it into two, like 554 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: a red electron and a blue electron, and it's a 555 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical process, then that's when things start to get weird, right, 556 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: that's when things sort of become spooky. Yeah, exactly. Nobody 557 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: thinks that that ball is actually red and blue simultaneously, 558 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: because it's not a quantum object. We're just using that 559 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: as a way for you to sort of grapple with 560 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: these things because it's hard to think about electrons. But 561 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: now let's think about electrons. Let's think about a quantum object. 562 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: As you say, electrons have these weird properties, and so 563 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: the key is that those two things are somehow constrained. Right. 564 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: We used red ball and blue ball because implicitly we 565 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: were saying they could only be one red ball and 566 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: only one blue ball. So if mine is red, yours 567 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: has to be blue. The constraints for the quantum objects 568 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: is things like spin. You create two electrons together or 569 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: electron depositron or whatever so that their total spin is zero, 570 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: and if I measure mind to be spin up, then 571 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: yours has to be spinned down, even if you're ten 572 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: light years away from each other. Now, the cool thing 573 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: about this, the reason that it's different for electrons and 574 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: for balls, is not just because they're tiny quantum objects, 575 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: but because they can have multiple versions of these properties. Like, 576 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: when I measure the spin of the electron, I can 577 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: choose what direction to measure the spin around right like 578 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: the top when you spin it, it spins around in access. 579 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: So when I measured the spin of the electron, I 580 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: can choose like some direction and measure the electron spin, 581 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: and the other electron ten light years away has to 582 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: have the opposite spin along the same axis. The crazy 583 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: thing about electron spin is that you can't measure its 584 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: spin simultaneously multiple directions. You measure it one direction that 585 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: fuzzes the spin in the other direction, sort of like 586 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: momentum and position. John Bell was able to take advantage 587 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: of this and came up with this crazy set of experiments. 588 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 1: We take our electrons far apart, we agree randomly on 589 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: three directions that we can measure the electron on three axes, 590 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: and then we do a bunch of measurements. And he 591 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: showed that in the quantum mechanical case, where these things 592 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: are not determined and they sort of like measurement along 593 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: one axis fuzzes the measurement along the other axis, then 594 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: in that case you'll get a different set of statistical 595 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: correlations between your measurement, and in the classical case where 596 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: it's hidden variables, where things are like determined in advance. 597 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: So sort of mind blowing that he came up with 598 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: this crazies beautiful, elegant set of experiments to force the 599 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: universe to reveal the fact that it was making these 600 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: decisions on the fly, that these things were really collapsing 601 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: at the last moment, not in advance, that there's no 602 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: information going with these electrons. It's helping you determine where 603 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: their spin is, right, because I guess the you know, 604 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: the counter the theory or the counter proposition is that 605 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, you took this electron, you split it into 606 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: a spin up and a spin down, you put him 607 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: into different bags. He took him far apart, and so 608 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: you could say that, well, you know, we don't know 609 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: whether the electrons are spin up and down, but the 610 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: electron sort of know, like just like the red ball 611 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: and the blue ball, like obviously one of them has 612 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: spin up and the other one's spin down. We just 613 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. And then when you open 614 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: it you might be surprised. But you know, somebody who 615 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: is tracking these electrons all along and totally knew which 616 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: one was up and which one's down. But I think 617 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: the kind of the power of the Bell's experiment is 618 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: that it somehow, through you know, complicated probabilities and scenarios, 619 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: it sort of proves that no, like not nobody knew 620 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: knows what these electrons were the whole time, like nobody, 621 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: not even like whoever is making the universe or running 622 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 1: the universe exactly, It's not determined. And the important thing 623 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: to understand here is that it's not a single measurement. 624 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: It's not like I measure spin up and you measure 625 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: spin down and then we say, aha, it wasn't determined. 626 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: You can't decide that from one measurement, right because that 627 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: could have been determined. And if we're measuring along the 628 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: same axis, like I'm always going to get the opposite 629 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: answer as you. The genius of Bell's experiment is that 630 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: it's statistical, is that I'm measuring a bunch of different directions. 631 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: You're measuring a bunch of different directions, and the quantum 632 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: mechanics comes in with a correlation of our multiple measurements. 633 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: It's very subtle effect. You can't see it from just 634 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: one measurement. You can do multiple measurements and study their correlations. 635 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: So it's not like super smoking gun, but it's very 636 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: clear evidence because the correlations you get from quantum mechanics 637 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: are very different from the correlations you expect in the 638 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: case you describe where it's like all secretly determined in advance, 639 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: and when we do these measurements and people have actually 640 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: done these experiments, they get the numbers that agree with 641 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: a quantum mechanical prediction, not the hidden variable prediction. Right. 642 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of like you can't tell if a coin 643 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: is like a fake coin or a bias coin, but 644 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: with one flip of the coin, you need to like 645 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: flip it a lot of times, you know, like, oh wait, 646 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: actually it's heads, you know, fifty one of the time 647 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: this is a theater's coin. Right. That's kind of like 648 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: the YEA behind builds experiment is that you run this 649 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: experiment where you split the electrons a whole bunch of 650 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: times and somehow you know the probabilities, the way you 651 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: set up the experiment, it tells you that the universe 652 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: is actually random. Yeah, And it's more than just that 653 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: it's random, right, It's more than just that it's not 654 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: determined until the moment you look at the electron. It's 655 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: also that it's weirdly nonlocal. And these effects are somehow 656 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: happening across great distances in space time. And they've done 657 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: these experiments, you know, where things are close to each 658 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: other because they're complicated, and then they've managed to do 659 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: them further apart and further apart and further apart. And 660 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: now we've done them so far apart that there's no 661 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: possible way information can travel from one of the electrons 662 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: to the other. Not like you're looking at one electron 663 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: and then zoom at the speed of light. It tells 664 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: thegether electron what to be, you know, I'm red, quick 665 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: be blue. There's no time for that to happen. These 666 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: experiments have been done so far apart with synchronized clocks 667 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: and everything, so there's no time for that to happen. 668 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: And yet they still see these results, which means that 669 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: the universe must be non local. Right, that like the 670 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: is happening in one place can instantaneously affect things happening 671 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: somewhere else. That's like really hard to swallow, right, And 672 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: here I thought we were supposed to shop local environment. Well, 673 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: I think the point is that, you know, we thought 674 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: that maybe quantum mechanics meant that the universe was random, 675 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: and we've actually proved it with Bell's experiments, and we're 676 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: actually going to dive into or at least trying to 677 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: dive into Bell's experiment in a later episode. But I 678 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: think the main point is that, you know, at least 679 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: until a few years ago, Bell's experiments sort put the 680 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: nail on the coffin that said that quantum mechanics is right, 681 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,959 Speaker 1: things are sort of unknowable and truly random at their court. 682 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: And so Bell's experiment shows that there can't be any 683 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: local hidden variables, right, that there's no information being carried 684 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: along with the electron that secretly determines in advance the 685 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: outcome of all of those experiments. And so now there's 686 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: a theory that says that maybe the Bell's experiments are 687 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: not all they're supposed to be, or maybe they're not 688 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: set up right, or maybe there are things actually in 689 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: the universe that we're not seeing that maybe do make 690 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: the universe totally deterministic or at least super deterministic. So 691 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: let's get into that. But first let's take another quick break. Alright, 692 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about super determinism, which is um pretty super 693 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: I guess at least super recent. Right, it's sort of 694 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: a new idea that maybe Bell's experiments are not quite 695 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: properly set up, right. I think super determinism maybe oversells it, 696 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, I would call it like bonkers determinism. It's 697 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: like deterministic determinism. It's like people who are really determined 698 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: to find deterministic loopholes, you know. I think most people 699 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: are convinced by Bell's experiments and the way they've been done. 700 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: It's really impressive to or to force experimentally. I think 701 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: people are pushing hard to find loopholes, to say, like, 702 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: are we absolutely sure is there a way you can 703 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: interpret these experiments and still have the universe b deterministic. 704 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: Not like we want to reject Bell or anything. It's 705 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: just like, let's just make absolutely sure is no other interpretation. 706 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: So this is sort of like an exercise in philosophical 707 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: thorough nous, So it's more philosophical, it's not physics, you 708 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, are you looking for loopholes 709 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: in like the arguments of Bell's experiment, or looking for 710 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: loopholes in like the mechanics, or like the details of 711 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: how it's carried out? Well, I think it's all connected, right. 712 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: The details of how it's carried out tell us exactly 713 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: what we can and can't conclude. The first iterations of 714 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: Bell's experiments they did them sort of close by, because 715 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: it's hard to have quantum particles that are entangled survive 716 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: travels long distances without getting perturbed by other stuff. To 717 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: preserve that entanglement over distances is challenging. So the first 718 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: iterations of Bell's experiments were sort of nearby, and there 719 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: weren't that precise. People thought, well, you know, these electrons 720 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: could still be communicating. There's still time for them to 721 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: send messages back and forth somehow. So then they did 722 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: them further and further apart, which is harder and harder, 723 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: and now we're sure that they can't be communicating. So 724 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing we're doing, is like looking 725 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: for those loopholes and then trying to close them wondering, 726 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: is there a way we could do this experiment in 727 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: a way that proves that that crazy alternative interpretation of 728 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: Bell's experiment can't be the case? So super determinism is 729 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: in that category. It's like, well, are you sure it's 730 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: not this crazy other bonker's idea? How do you actually know? 731 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: All right, Well, then what are the sort of the 732 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: arguments of super determinism. What are they saying about Bell's experiments? 733 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: So super determinism and this is going to sound sort 734 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: of nutty, says that, like the whole universe has basically 735 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: been contrived to trick us into thinking that the universe 736 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: is random and quantum mechanical, but actually the whole thing 737 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: is just like a setup. You're right, it does sound bonker. Wait, 738 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: you're saying the idea is that the universe is not random, 739 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: it's just sort of built in a way to make 740 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: it look random. Maybe everything really is determined, and it's 741 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: like determined all the way back to the Big Bang, 742 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, like things back in the very early times 743 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: in the universe determine things that happen now, including things 744 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: that seem to be usually separated in a way that 745 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: you couldn't coordinate them. Maybe if you just go like 746 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: far enough back in time and hatch your plot, you 747 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: can arrange things so that they look random, but they're 748 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: actually determined. I guess, how do you make something look random? 749 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: And what's the difference between something looking random and actually 750 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: being random. Well, let's take your example of a coin. Right. 751 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: Let's say I give you a coin and I wanted 752 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: you to test to see if it's fair. What are 753 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 1: you gonna do. You're gonna flip it a thousand times 754 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: or a million times. You'll measure the fraction of times 755 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: that you get heads or tails. Right now, what if 756 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: I give you a biased coin, one that gives you 757 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: heads seventy of the time, but I somehow arranged to 758 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: influence you and the way that you do your experiment. 759 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I distract you with bananas or you know, I do 760 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: a silly dance because I know how you flip the coin, 761 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: and I know how to affect you and bias your 762 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: experiment so that it looks like it's fifty percent of 763 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: the time. Then you're going to measure the coin to 764 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: be fifty percent of time heads. You're going to declare 765 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: that it's a fair coin. Even though it's not. So 766 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: if I can somehow interfere with the way you do 767 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: your experiment because I know you and I know how 768 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: to manipulate you, then maybe I can affect your conclusions 769 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: of that experiment. Whoa, whoa, Wait a minute. Okay, So 770 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: here's the set up, the setup. As you gave me 771 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: biased coin, like a cheater's coin that's actually gonna give 772 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: me heads seventy of the time. But you're saying that somehow, 773 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,720 Speaker 1: when I go to flip my coin a thousand times, 774 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: you're somehow going to you know, blow some air or 775 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 1: something so that it lands heads fifty percent of the 776 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: time during my experiments. But then when I go place 777 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: a big bed, then you don't do that. Is that 778 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: what you're saying? Yeah, something like that. And it's not 779 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: even as involved as I'm gonna blow some air. I'm 780 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: gonna specifically interfere with the experiment. I'm gonna let you 781 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: do your experiment, but i'm gonna manipulate you somehow into 782 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: thinking you've done it randomly, because when you flip a coin, 783 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: you know it's not actually truly random, right, Like you 784 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: flip a coin the same way twice, you're gonna get 785 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: the same answer. It's just sort of very difficult to 786 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: do that. So imagine I'm some super powerful demon and 787 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 1: I know exactly how to make you flip a coin 788 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: just the right way to get heads or tails, And 789 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: I'm some super powerful mind controller guy, and I can 790 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: make you do that somehow. This is a very ridiculous, obviously, 791 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: but it is a possible interpretation of the experiment, right, 792 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's absurd and outlandish, but it's sort of possible. 793 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: But I guess my question is, how exactly are you 794 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: manipulating me? Like somehow you know how I'm holding the 795 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: coin or somehow you know, like if I start with 796 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 1: my coin one way in my palm before I toss it, 797 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: then you're gonna do something so that it actually I 798 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: read it as heads or tails later on? Does that 799 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: what you mean? I'm not going to change how you 800 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: read the coin. I'm not going to change how the 801 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: coin flies through the air. I'm just gonna change how 802 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: you throw the coin, because how you throw the coin 803 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: determines actually what happens. So if I can get you 804 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: to throw it in a certain way, then I can 805 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: change the outcome of the experiment. Oh, I see, like 806 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: somehow this cheater's coin. If you throw it a certain way, 807 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: you'll get heads tails, but if you throw it maybe 808 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: a regular way, then you get heads tails. You're sort 809 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: of controlling how I throw it either way way or 810 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: the seventy percent way. And when I do the experiments, 811 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,959 Speaker 1: you're controlling me to do it, to toss it the way. 812 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: But when you when I go to place the bed 813 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: like for real, then you you have me through it 814 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: the other way way. And so that sounds ridiculous and 815 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: contrived and implausible to you. Then getting ready for Bell's 816 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: experiment and the effects of superdeterminism, that says that maybe 817 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: the whole universe is set up in a way so 818 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: that the people who have been doing these experiments, which 819 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: requires some randomness, right, because they're choosing these axes on 820 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: which to make these electron spin measurements. What if those 821 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: aren't actually random? What if that's been sort of like 822 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: contrived throughout the history of the universe, including like how 823 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: these people grew up, how they designed their experiments, how 824 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,760 Speaker 1: they chose to try to find random information to conduct 825 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: their experiments. All of that has been controlled since the 826 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: beginning of time, such that these experiments would look like 827 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: the random even though they're not. That's super determinism. You're 828 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: saying that, like in in Bell's experiments, you know, um, 829 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,439 Speaker 1: it's an experiment and it's random, And so even if 830 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: you like do the experiment perfectly, there is a possibility, 831 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: because it is sort of an experiment, that it might 832 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: tell you that the coin is fair even though it's 833 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: not right, because it's still a coin. Like even if 834 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: I take a fake bias coin, you know, and I 835 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: tossed it a thousand times, it's still technically possible for 836 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: me to get fifty heads tail. And so I think 837 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 1: you're saying that somehow my coincidence, Um, the universe since 838 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of time has been set up in a 839 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: way so that every time somebody runs Bill's experiments, somehow 840 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: they always pick the direction that tells me that the 841 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: coin is fifty, when actually it's exactly because there's this 842 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: step in these experiments when you have to pick what 843 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: access I'm not going to measure my electron on. You 844 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,959 Speaker 1: have one electron over here and one electron over there, 845 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: and each electron you need to pick one of three 846 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: ACTSI and then Bell's experiment tells you how often you'll 847 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: get the same result and how often you'll get opposite spins. 848 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: But you need to pick the axti randomly so that 849 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: you add up to the right correlations. And so if 850 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: you're not picking those randomly, if you're like contriving those 851 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: to always be the same direction, for example, then you're 852 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: not going to get one third. You're gonna get this 853 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And so it's possible to manipulate these 854 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: experiments in theory to make that happen. Now in practice, 855 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 1: the folks that do these experiments, they're very careful about this. 856 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: They don't just like use some random number generator off 857 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: the internet, like. They have developed these hilarious efforts to 858 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: make their experiments like really random and impossible to manipulate. 859 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: In the case of these experiments I was reading about 860 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fifteen, the measurement decisions were determined 861 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: by applying some operation to three bits of information from 862 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: three independent sources, one of which was random digits of pie, 863 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: another was binary strings derived from Monty Python and the 864 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: Holy Grail transformed into a bit sequence, another from episodes 865 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: of Saved by the Bell, which I love because you know, 866 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: this is Bell's experiment, and so they're using episodes of 867 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: Saved by the Bell, converting that script into a series 868 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: of numbers, and using that to generate part of their input. 869 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 1: I'm not sure they're making the experiment more legit, you 870 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, I'm listening to this and 871 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's less legit. So these crazy antics, Now 872 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: you know how television production works. In order to manipulate 873 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: Bell's experiment, Not only do you have to manipulate all 874 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,799 Speaker 1: these experiments across space and time, you also have to 875 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 1: somehow manipulate these meetings where they talk about the script 876 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: for these television episodes in a way that determines the 877 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: outcome of these experiments. Like it's ridiculous. You know how 878 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: impossible it is to get that through network executives. Well, 879 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: I think it is that, you know, when you run 880 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: Bell's experiment, and again we'll get into more details of 881 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: it in a later episode, but I think the it 882 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 1: is that there's some choice in the experiments, Like you say, okay, 883 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: we'll measure along this access, and it is technically possible 884 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: to pick an access that tells you that the coin 885 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,360 Speaker 1: is fair, right, Like, technically it's possible, And so the 886 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: it is that you know, maybe every time they've run 887 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: this experiment and they've picked a random direction, they've somehow 888 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: picked the direction that tells you that the coin is fair, 889 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: meaning like it's some strange, super weird coincidence that someone 890 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: we think the universe is random, but really we just 891 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: lived in this crazy universe where every time we run 892 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: Bell's experiments, we've always somehow chosen the direction that makes 893 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: it look Yeah, maybe these electrons really are determined by 894 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: local information that's not available to us, and we do 895 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: these experiments to try to suss that out. But the 896 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: experiments have a bit of a random element to them, 897 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: and if it's not actually random, and we think it's 898 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: random but were being tricked and manipulated, and then we 899 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: could conclude that the universe has this random element, that 900 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: there is this non local random thing happening, when in 901 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: reality it's not, And so that sounds ridiculous and unlikely, 902 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 1: and it is. You know, it's the state we're at 903 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: where we're like trying to swallow the weirdness of quantum 904 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: mechanics and just trying to make sure before we accept 905 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: the universe is this weird way that there is no 906 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: other possible explanation, and so again this is like an 907 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: exercise and philosophical thoroughness, just to make sure we thought 908 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: about all the other possibilities. Well, I guess you know, 909 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: it could be like, um, maybe we live in some 910 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: kind of multiverse and we just happen to live in 911 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: the multiverse where every time we run Bell's experiments we 912 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: think it's a fair coin, But really we're just somehow 913 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: fooling ourselves into thinking the coin is fair. Yeah, it's possible, right, 914 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: It seems really unlikely because there's been so many iterations 915 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: in these experiments in different conditions, and so it just 916 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: gets more and more implausible the more times we tested, 917 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: and the more times it comes out like bang on 918 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: exactly what quantum mechanics predicts. So it's not something anybody 919 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,240 Speaker 1: should take seriously as anything other than like an interesting 920 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: thought experiment, like how far do you have to go 921 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: to rescue determinism? How ridiculous do you have to imagine 922 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: the universe is in order for it to not be 923 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical in this way that we are slowly coming 924 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: to grips with. I see, so when you say super determinism, 925 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: it's really more like super stubborn determinism, Like it's not 926 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: actually like likely that it's true, but it's you're still 927 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: clinging to the idea that maybe the universe is determined. 928 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,239 Speaker 1: It's like super desperate is um. People are desperate not 929 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: to give up on determinism. Super desperate determinism. It's like 930 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: the bizarro superman. All right, well, what what does it 931 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: all mean? Doesn't mean that there that we're increasingly thinking 932 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: that there is free will or unpredictability in the universe, 933 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,320 Speaker 1: right that we've now maybe are getting closer to leaving 934 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: behind this idea that the universe is determined. Well, we 935 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: are definitely coming to grips with and accepting this consequence 936 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: that the universe is nonlocal that they have to somehow 937 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 1: make this collapse decision off space in no time, which 938 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,720 Speaker 1: is sort of amazing. And you know, another interesting loophole 939 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: or wrinkle to this interpretation of Bell's experiment is that 940 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: we have to remember that Bell's experiment just tells us 941 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: that there are no local hidden variables. It's possible for 942 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 1: them to be global hidden variables. Maybe there's like some 943 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: bank somewhere that keeps all this information and is arranging 944 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,399 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. And can transmit it across space 945 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: and time instantaneously. That's basically bow Mean mechanics. We had 946 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: an episode about that last year, so check that out 947 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,399 Speaker 1: if you're curious about that interpretation of Belle's experiment, which 948 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,840 Speaker 1: is actually one of Bell himself's favorite interpretations. But I 949 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: think that most people understand it to mean that the 950 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,760 Speaker 1: universe is fundamentally random, that there are these decisions being 951 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: made sort of at the last minute by the universe 952 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,399 Speaker 1: when the wave function collapses. What that means for free 953 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,360 Speaker 1: will is a question for philosophers. All right, well, I 954 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: guess um, maybe we should change their name to sad determinism. 955 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 1: But do you know, I thought maybe in our last 956 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,560 Speaker 1: episode we talked about how there is no simultaneity in 957 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: the universe, right, this idea that there's no real sort 958 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: of like fixed time in the universe. Could there be 959 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: some sort of loophole there? That's a good point, right, 960 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: how can you even talk about simultonay across space and time? 961 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: There isn't a loophole there because they've separated them so 962 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: far apart that we know that these things cannot be 963 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: costly linked to each other. So while we can't say 964 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: exactly which one happens first, this electron measurement or that 965 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 1: electron measurement. We do know that they can't be costly 966 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: linked because they're so far apart in space. All right, well, 967 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,320 Speaker 1: then I guess maybe the universe is really is random 968 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 1: and unpredictable. Um, let's test this right now. Daniel, what 969 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: am I going to say next? It's gonna be some 970 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:30,720 Speaker 1: joke about strange balls. Wrong. I was gonna say, thanks 971 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: for joining us. We hope you enjoyed that. See you 972 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and 973 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,840 Speaker 1: Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of I Heart Radio. 974 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: For more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I 975 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 976 00:49:53,719 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.