1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, My guest today is 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Professor Amy Wax. She is currently the Robert Mundheim Professor 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: of Law at the University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School. 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: She joined the law school's faculty with tenure on July 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: two thousand and one and was granted a chair in 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: May two thousand and seven. As an assistant to the 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: Solicitor General in the Office of the Solicitor General at 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: the US Department of Justice in the late nineteen eighties 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, she argued fifteen cases before the US Supreme Court. 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: She holds both a medical degree in neuroscience from Harvard 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: Medical School and a law degree from Columbia, and she's 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: here today to talk about issues including the freedom of 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: speech on college campuses. So I'm really pleased to welcome 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: my guest, Professor Amy Wax. Amy, welcome, and thank you 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: for joining me on news World. Well, thank you for 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: having me. Now. I had to say, looking at your 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: education and career history, I was intrigued that you first 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: earned a medical degree in neuroscience from Harvard Medical School, 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: then immediately went to law school, first at Harvard, and 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: then you transferred to Columbia. Was that always your plan, No, 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: it kind of evolved over time. I went to medical school, 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: but then I realized I was probably temperamentally unsuited to 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: the practice of medicine and tried law school. I was 24 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: thinking of doing a philosophy degree, actually, and after I 25 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: got to law school, I realized that I really loved 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: a law and was going to enjoy the practice of law. 27 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: So I did gradually turn from medicine to law. Finished 28 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: my law degree, did a clerkship, and ended up in 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: a wonderful position working for the Reagan and Bush administrations 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: in the Solicitor General's office. And that was a terrific 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: experience which confirmed me in my enjoyment of law. And 32 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: then I ended up in a academic career, teaching at 33 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: the University of Virginia Law School for seven years before 34 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: I came to Penn in two thousand and one. So 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: my life took me in an unexpected direction. But I 36 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: am married to a professor of medicine, my husband, who's 37 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: an oncologist, so I do function as a doctor's wife, 38 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: sort of vicariously. It's interesting because you actually started and 39 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: got a Bachelor of Science semicum laude in molecular biophysics 40 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: and biochemistry at Yale, then you will come Laudie at 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Harvard in the medical school, and then you got to 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: JD from Columbia. That's really a pretty impressive academic record. Well, 43 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: thank you. It was a long time ago. Well, that 44 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: happens to all of us, and in the absence of death, 45 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: it's eventually a long time ago. I'm curious. I mean, 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: it's really a big jump psychologically from thinking like a 47 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: molecular biologist to thinking like a lawyer. In your own experiences, 48 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: how did you find the transition? Well, not really, and 49 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: not the way that I approached the law anyway, which 50 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: is in a rigorous, evidence based analytical way, which asks 51 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: hard questions, tries to look at them rationally and logically, 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: tries to attend to the evidence. The facts emphasize proof, 53 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: and the methodologies really aren't all that different, although the 54 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: questions being addressed are different. In many cases, it's really 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: a matter of intellectual habits of mind. One brings very 56 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: similar habits to both endeavors. I would hope at LEAs 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: ideally so nowadays less and less because of the way 58 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: the culture has gone unfortunately, but I think in the 59 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: best possible worlds, they're not too far apart in how 60 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: people approach them. And is that because they're both analytical. Yeah, 61 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: they're both analytical. They both involve logic and evidence and 62 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: reason and rigor from premises, from facts, and a sense 63 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: of where the evidence takes you and how certain you 64 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: can be about your conclusions. I mean that enters into 65 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: both areas, I think, as it should into any intellectual endeavor. 66 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: So you went from practicing law to being a professor 67 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: teaching law? What led to that transition? When you practice, 68 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: people bring problems to you, legal problems to you, and 69 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: you are constrained to work on them, and that can 70 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: be a lot of fun. And I enjoyed that. Certainly. 71 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: I enjoyed it in a justice depart where we got 72 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: to work on some very important and interesting questions at 73 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: the highest level. Certainly, the Solicitor General's office was an 74 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: idyllic setting where the best and the brightest operated. But 75 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: I was attracted to academia because it let me work 76 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: on questions and issues that interested me. It gave me 77 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: the freedom to do that, and that's quite a privilege. 78 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: And I also really enjoy teaching. I enjoy introducing students 79 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: to the fundamentals of law, two important legal concepts, trying 80 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: to shape the way they think about the law and 81 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: influence how they approach and think about the law. And 82 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: I find that very satisfying. So that was a lot 83 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: of fun for me too. So he first became a 84 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Virginia. What was Virginia like 85 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: as a campus? Oh, it was great. I mean that 86 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: was back in nineteen ninety four when I first got there, 87 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: left the Justice Department and UVA well, first of all, 88 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: it was a totally different era. I think academia and 89 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: the universities have gone seriously downhill since then, and that's 90 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: been a major crisis in the intellectual life of our 91 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: nation and something I'd like to talk more about. But 92 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety four UVA it was a wonderful 93 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: atmosphere of openness to different ideas on popular opinions and 94 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: were welcome. There was a give and take, There was 95 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: academic freedom, there was respect for dissent and difference, and 96 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: I think UVA, of all the law schools even operating 97 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: at that time, was one of the very best for 98 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: that kind of atmosphere. So I felt very fortunate to 99 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: end up at UVA, especially since even then there was 100 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: a left word tilt in academia, and I, being a 101 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: person of the right, was even a little bit of 102 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: fish out of water. But I never felt that I 103 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: was unwelcome or ill treated at UVA. Really was an 104 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: idyllic period, certainly in my intellectual life. And do you 105 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: think that as you talk to people back there, do 106 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: you think the UVA has followed the pattern of moving 107 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: towards a more woke environment. Yes, I do. I think 108 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: it's been a little bit slower in getting there maybe 109 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: than some other places, but I think it's very firmly 110 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: in that camp now. It's as far as I know 111 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: from what I hear, and of course I haven't been there, 112 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: so I don't have any direct experience, so this is 113 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: just what people tell me. But my understanding is that 114 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: UVA has just gone the way of all the other 115 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: top schools and top law schools. But in the interim, 116 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: even now, I've spent twenty years at the University of Pennsylvania, 117 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: that's correct, twenty years going on twenty one. And was 118 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: it substantially more open back when you first went there? 119 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: It was more open when I first got there, Yes, absolutely, 120 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: And it was more open in the faculty certainly, and 121 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: their willingness to engage different ideas and different concepts and 122 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: unpopular opinions. And I think the really critical thing was 123 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: that the students were much more willing to do that, 124 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: and their tendencies towards intolerance and towards sort of taking 125 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: the easy path of saying, well, I don't like this 126 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: person's opinions, get rid of them, fire them. Those tendencies 127 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: were swelched. No one paid attention to them. The people 128 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: in authority stood up to the students and said, no, 129 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: that's antithetical to academic freedom, and it's terrible for your education, 130 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: because you are training to be a lawyer. Lawyer has 131 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: to operate in an adverse ary system where they hear 132 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: all sorts of untoward views and positions and opinions that 133 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: they don't agree with and they have to engage with those. 134 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: So back when I started at Penn, there was a 135 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:18,239 Speaker 1: very clear and firm understanding of the necessity for confronting 136 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: and engaging a range of views and positions, and that 137 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: understanding has now virtually disappeared. I would say it has 138 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: virtually disappeared in a few short years. And if I'm 139 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: hearing you correctly, though it's as much student driven as 140 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: faculty driven. Yes, I think it's student driven. It's partly 141 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: faculty driven at least through kind of faculty cowardice and 142 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: indifference and acquiescence in the zeitgeist. But what really drives 143 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: it is just a failure of leadership, an unwillingness of 144 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: the people in charge to stand up and defend these traditional, 145 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: important core values. And then the other piece of it, 146 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: Newt is that the universities have put in place these 147 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: massive grievance bureaucracies that are in charge of receiving complaints 148 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: from students and everyone involved. That's all they do. They 149 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: sort of sit around in their office drinking coffee, waiting 150 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: for people to come and wine at them. And then 151 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: they're charged with sort of going out and reviewing the 152 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: supposed offenders, the ones who have upset someone or offended 153 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: someone or said something untoward. And that's all part of 154 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: this sort of diversity, equity and inclusion monstrous initiative and 155 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: bureaucracy that has practically taken over the university at this point, 156 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: driven by cultural changes, by racial reckonings, and by federal initiatives. 157 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: The Department of education, which is really I think the 158 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: villain here and all of the sort of funding driven 159 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: requirements and mandates that have given these bureaucrats so much power. 160 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: It's very striking just in terms of the culture at 161 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: large on the academic campus that there was a survey 162 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: in July by the Harvard Crimson that liberal faculty at 163 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: Harvard out number of conservatives eighty two to one. Right, 164 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: that's less than two percent of the faculty identify as conservative. 165 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: Yale twenty seventeen study found seventy five percent of the 166 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: faculty numbers were liberal or very seven percent were a conservative. 167 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the term student facing administrators is, 168 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: but there was a survey of some nine hundred of them. 169 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Liberal staff members outnumbered conservatives by twelve to one. Only 170 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: six percent of campus administrators identified as conservative seventy one 171 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: classified as liberal were available. In that context, you're almost 172 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: guaranteed to start out every morning in a world of hostility, exactly. 173 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: And I mean this has been long in the making, nude. 174 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the faculty academia has always tilted somewhat left, 175 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: and it's just become more and more left leaning, to 176 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: the point where it's almost impossible to find someone with 177 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: traditional and conservative views in the university. Now, there was 178 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: a period when, even though the faculty was very left leaning, 179 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: they did feel an obligation to at least try to 180 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: be impartial and present issues in an even handed way. 181 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,479 Speaker 1: I mean, when I was at Yale in the early seventies, 182 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: I never felt that there was a pronounced political tilt 183 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: to the idea that we're being presented to me, even 184 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: though I'm pretty sure that my professors there weren't a 185 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: lot of conservatives among them. But even that obligation has 186 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: now just died, and there is just this overt, unabashed 187 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: presentation of issues that is completely one sided. I mean, 188 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: there is a pronounced imbalance in the way that ideas 189 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: and issues and subjects are presented in the university and 190 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: at colleges, and nobody apologizes for it. It really tells 191 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: in the kind of education that students are getting, and 192 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: it's a national crisis. I have students who take my 193 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: Conservatism Conservative Thought class, which is really kind of a 194 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: unique class in a way. I'm amazed at it survives, 195 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: who tell me I have never encountered these ideas. This 196 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: is in law school. They've already had sixteen plus years 197 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: of hyper expensive education, and they tell me, I just 198 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: have never encountered these authors before. I've never heard these 199 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: ideas before. You've opened up a whole new world to 200 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: me that I never even knew existed. And I can 201 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: only look at them and say, you know, I am 202 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: so sorry because you have spent all this money to 203 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: in effect be indoctrinated with this little niche. Let's use 204 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: the word extreme point of view. There is this pronounced 205 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: imbalance in the way issues are presented. There is affirmative 206 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: and actrination in neo Marxist ideas left leaning ideas, and 207 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: that is very alarming. The Conservatives and Republicans in this 208 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: nation need to wake up and realize what is going 209 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: on in the universities and how that is being exported 210 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: to politics, to culture, to moral thinking and works to 211 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: the disadvantage of traditional conservative ideas. The mismatch between what 212 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: goes on in the universities and the population at large 213 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: is so great and it is very destructive. Our elites 214 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: are being pushed to the left by self appointed elite arbiters, 215 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: and that to me, is a crisis. So has that 216 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: developed as a general pattern? How did you slide into trouble. 217 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: I slid into trouble by expressing some unpopular positions and 218 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: opinions on political and cultural and moral questions. And a 219 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: group of activists, students, social justice warriors, very vocal and 220 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: aggressive students, complained about it using social media, which of 221 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: course is an accelerant of any sort of grievance or 222 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: a complaint, and people outside the university picked up these themes. 223 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: They complain vociferously to my dean, And instead of my 224 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: dean doing what he should have done, which he had 225 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: a duty to do as a leader in higher education, 226 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: which is to say to them, look, that's what academic 227 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: freedom entails. Professors will have a range of opinions that 228 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: is really important to your education as well. If you 229 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: don't like them, then try to think of counter arguments, 230 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: or try to go and talk to the professor and 231 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: convince her. Otherwise, instead of doing that, he engaged in 232 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: an outrageous exercise of educational malpractice and decided to give 233 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: in to these grievance mongers and promised them that he 234 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: would try to sanction me and punish me for essentially 235 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: my opinions. And this, of course is completely contrary to 236 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: my tenure contract, completely contrary to much articulated principles of 237 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: academic freedom. But he didn't care because and Knut. This 238 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: is another baleful trend. The students call the shots. This 239 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: is a complete inversion of the proper order of things. 240 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: The most untutored, benighted, and ignorant members of the university community, 241 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: the students who are there to be educated. I'm not 242 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: saying anything surprising here. They're the ones in charge. It's 243 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: a complete topsy turvy inverted world. So that is what's 244 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: happening on campus. And I think the effort to sanction 245 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: me and perhaps even strip me of my job, I 246 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: don't know what they're really intending. That is emblematic of 247 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: a host of changes that are taking place on campus, 248 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: and the point of them is to consolidate the left, 249 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: far left hold on the university and drive out anyone 250 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: who is not with the program. It is a bold 251 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: and brazen attempt to effect a complete takeover of the 252 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: academic sphere by the far left people who represent a tiny, 253 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: tiny slice of opinion in our nation, and consolidate their 254 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: power center. I am just a casualty of, or a 255 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: potential casualty of that effort which has been going on 256 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: all around the country. So I have to confess I 257 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: get lost in some of this. I know, to one 258 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: point that the Daily Pennsylvanian and something signed by fifty 259 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: four students and alumni which attacked the ideas of you 260 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: and Alexander, had written a piece and they talk about 261 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: that they're steeped in anti blackness and in white hetero 262 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: patriarchal respectability. Now I think I'm lacking full understanding of 263 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: the modern world because I have not got a clue 264 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: what a hetero patriarchal respectability is or why it's a 265 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: horrifying concept. What am I missing here? I'm not going 266 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: to be able to explain it to you, because I 267 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: think it's total gibberish. Okay, I mean one of the 268 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: hallmarks of the criticisms and critiques against me is that 269 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: they use all of this jargon, which is just cheap talk, 270 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: all sorts of labels and accusations and terms that are 271 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: never defined, that are never nailed down, that are never 272 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: tied to any rules or obligations. They're just insults. They're 273 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: pure insults. They're vacuous insults. But underlying them is an 274 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: effort to dismantle and destroy. Well, I'll put it this way, 275 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: Western civilization, right, all of the achievements, the traditions, accomplishments 276 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: of our European Western way of life, which is hated 277 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: by the left, is despised by the left, and is 278 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: viewed as irredeemably racist and evil and destructive and oppressive. 279 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: So bourgeois values, which of course are the mainstays of 280 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: decent life and of our communal life, they are seen 281 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: as core to what is most despicable in our traditions 282 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: and civilization and has to be banished and destroyed. That's 283 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: the best way I can explain it, because I just 284 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: find it utterly mystifying. I certainly don't share that view, 285 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: but once again, it's effectuated through this kind of mindless, idiotic, 286 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: accusatory name calling, which never has to explain itself, justify itself, 287 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: define itself, because it's part and parcel of the university 288 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: and the way it operates that nobody ever puts these 289 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: students speech to the fire and challenges them if they 290 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: are activists or minorities or marginal groups. They just get 291 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: away with anything. In the piece you wrote, I'm fascinating 292 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: body because you say quote all cultures are not equal, 293 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: or at least they are not equal in preparing people 294 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: to be productive in an advanced economy. Now, I would 295 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: argue as a historian, that is so patently obvious and 296 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: so completely true that the fact that these people become 297 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: hysterical tells you a lot more about the people than 298 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: about the sentence. Well, the fact that it's obvious and 299 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: plain for anyone to see that not all cultures are equal. 300 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: They're not all equal, and their achievements in their suitability 301 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: for modern technology and modern technological societies, for democracy, for freedom, 302 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: for rights, the fact that not all cultures respect those 303 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: things and defend those things equally. I mean, I just 304 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: think it is so obvious that the more obvious it is, 305 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: the more threatening it is. And it seemed to create 306 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: almost a sense of rage that you would write that, right. 307 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, noticing as you know, as a crime, Noticing 308 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, what's in front of your eyes is now 309 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: a crime. And it all goes back to this idea 310 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: of equality, this commitment to sort of the hyper equality 311 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 1: of everything, which obviously you know is counterfactual. We're committed 312 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: in our society to legal equality, to political equality, but 313 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: it's only recently that that's been extended to equality of 314 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: outcome and equality of results, and equality of value, and 315 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: equality of contribution, equality of esteem. I mean, that wasn't 316 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: really part of the deal, and now all of a 317 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: sudden it's mandatory, even when the evidence points directly in 318 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: the opposite direction. That's what's going on. I'll add one thing, 319 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: which is Theodore Dalrymple, Lee conservative writer, said something very interesting. 320 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: He said, one of the ways in which Neo Marx's 321 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: social justice totalitarians exert control is by humiliating people into 322 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: admitting that something or professing that something is true which 323 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: they know not to be true, forcing them to say 324 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: things that they know to be false. That is the 325 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: ultimate exertion of power that these people revelate. Christ and 326 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: I did a movie called Nine Days to Change the World, 327 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: which is a study of Pope John Paul. Seconds returned 328 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: to Poland in nineteen seventy nine, which was enormous success 329 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 1: and was the beginning of the collapse of the Soiviet 330 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: Empire in Eastern Europe. And while we were there, the 331 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: Solidarity Union, which had been one of the leaders in 332 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: bringing down the Soviets in Poland, gave me a poster 333 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: which I have on my wall, which they had made 334 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one. It says in Polish, for 335 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: Poland to remain Poland, two plus two must always equal four. 336 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: And it's a direct repudiation, of course, of the George 337 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: Orwell point in nineteen eighty four, where the torturer says 338 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: to the citizen, if the state tells you two plus 339 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: two equals three, at equals three, and if the state 340 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: tells you two plus two equals five, at equals five. 341 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: And in a sense, that's what you're describing. That the 342 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: tutolitarians who now dominate our campuses, and that's what they are. 343 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: They're the direct descendant of the Bolsheviks, the direct descendant 344 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: of the radical wing of the French Revolution, the director 345 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: Senator Malzi Dung, who was himself a Leninist. I only 346 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: get off into politics, but it is saw today and 347 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: the naming of a brand new bill with a title 348 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: so totally false that it would take into a tolitarian 349 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: system to make you believe it was true. And I 350 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: think that's now become their norm, that the world is 351 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: what they say it is. Our job is to shut 352 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: up and do what they tell us. Well, exactly, and 353 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: I think in the university now it's a two plus 354 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: two equal five world, or else, or else you're fired, 355 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: or you won't be hired, or you won't be promoted, 356 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: or you won't be recommended. Actually it's interesting because they're 357 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: just dozens of bizarre allegations against me, many of which 358 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: are false, by the way, but there are two that 359 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 1: illustrate this point really well. Not only do we have 360 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: to say two plus two equal five, but we have 361 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: to profess overtly contradictory concepts and inconsistent concepts. So, of 362 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: course you know that on the modern campus, affirmative action 363 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: is a sacred item of faith. All good people support 364 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: affirmative action. It's absolutely essential for bringing about diversity, and 365 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: if we didn't have it, we wouldn't have enough minorities 366 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: on campus. And actually, if you look at the Harvard 367 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: affirmative action case, the briefs, they basically say that we 368 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: must have affirmative action. But then I'm accused of insulting 369 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: and humiliating a student by telling that student you know, 370 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: you were a person who benefited from affirmative action and 371 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: getting into your Ivy League college and getting into pen 372 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: law school and that's somehow an affront an insult. Why. 373 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, it's almost certainly true based 374 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: on the statistics. Secondly, I thought affirmative action was something 375 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: to be celebrated. It's something wonderful, it's something to be embraced, 376 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: So how can it be an insult At the same time, 377 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to wrap my head around these two sort 378 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: of simultaneously contradictory concepts, and yet I must. The second 379 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: thing is I'm accused of bias against minority students. They 380 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: could reasonably believe that I'm biased because I said minority 381 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: students aren't evenly distributed through the class in terms of 382 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: their grades, which has been shown over and over again 383 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: in a number of different law schools. But they never 384 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: take into account that we have blind grading at Penn 385 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: Law School. Blind grading is supposed to eliminate the possibility 386 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: of bias. So it is irrational for the students to 387 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: infer that I am showing bias or that they have 388 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: a reasonable fear that I will be biased in grading 389 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: them because we have a system that eliminates the possibility 390 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: of bias. But the students are never corrected in their 391 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: irrational fear. The Dean never says, well, you have to 392 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: understand your fear has no basis. There's no evidence that 393 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: she's ever been biased in the way she grades you, 394 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: and she couldn't be because we have this system where 395 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: she doesn't know who she's assigning grades too. So these 396 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: are just examples of completely incoherent statements. Well, can you 397 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: explain though. One of the most jarring attacks on you 398 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: is the assertion that on the Glenn Show, you said, 399 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm quoting I don't think I've ever seen a black 400 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: student graduate in the top quarter of the class, and 401 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: rarely rarely in the top half, right, And I was 402 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: going by my observations on the Clerkship Committee, where I 403 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: see lists of class rank, and those lists do exist, 404 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: and they are made, and what I've seen at graduation, 405 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: and I was only reporting what I had seen, So 406 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: perhaps what I've seen is inaccurate. But I will tell 407 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: you this taught civil procedure for twenty years. And I 408 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: know because after I graded them and assign the grades, 409 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: those grades were unblinded and I see who got what grades, 410 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: and I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty, okay, 411 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: one hundred percent certainty that in twenty years, I have 412 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: only had a handful of black students in the top 413 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: half of my class and civil procedure, and that's just 414 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: something that I observed and there I'm in a position 415 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: to observe it. And they have never adduced any evidence 416 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: to contradict it. Never they don't even feel an obligation 417 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: to do that. So that's just a fact, and it 418 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: comports with what's been shown at other law schools u 419 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: CELA Law School data reported in various briefs before the 420 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. There's nothing surprising about this new It's just 421 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: the way things are when you have affirmative action, where 422 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: you have double standards for people from different groups. It's 423 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: what you would expect. I was sort of surprised that 424 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: in June this year, Dean Rugger Rocio a letter was 425 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: just kind of amazing and which he accuses you of, 426 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: quote your intentional and incessant racist, sexist, is enofhobic and 427 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: homophobic actions and statements. I mean, that's sort of throwing 428 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: the book emotionally. What is it based on. That's just 429 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: name calling. It's just name calling. I'm not going to 430 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: bore you with the particular statements that supposedly displayed by racism, sexism, etc. 431 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: Because many of them are just ridiculous. They're pickyun beyond belief, 432 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: and it's not based on anything right, It's just not 433 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: based on anything at all. Defines those terms. What makes 434 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: a statement racist, what makes it white supremacist? What makes 435 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: it homophobic? It feels no obligation to explain that. I mean, 436 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: the charge of homophobia is based on critiques I made 437 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: of same sex marriage before same sex marriage was legalized, 438 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: on a panel in which I was invited to present 439 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: the case against legalizing same sex marriage. That's an academic exercise. 440 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: Fifteen years later, someone takes that as a personal insult. 441 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: That's absurd if you know the actual facts, It's ridiculous 442 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: and very dangerous. It's the kitchen sync theory, just throwing 443 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: everything at you and hope something sticks. Yes. And actually, 444 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: the first complaints against me were just based on my 445 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: political opinions. Now I think they're panicking because they know 446 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: of it. Tenure protects my extra mural expressions of political opinion. 447 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: Now they're insinuating that I said things in the classroom 448 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: without telling me what class I said them, in, what 449 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: course it was, what the lesson was that I was presenting, 450 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: what the topic was under discussion, who the witnesses were, 451 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: no information whatsoever, just these sort of fragments of recollections 452 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: of students from eight years ago, ten years ago, twelve 453 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: years ago. I think they're just panicking and trying to 454 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: get me on abusing my classroom, which I have never done. 455 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: I have never said much of what they have attributed 456 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: to me. They are desperate. It is defined by the 457 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: current dominant left on the campus as you're clearly a conservative. 458 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: Did you grow up that way or did you migrate 459 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: towards it? Well, I don't think my opinions have changed. 460 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: I've always viewed things pretty much the way I see 461 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: them now. It's just that now considered conservative. Back when 462 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: I was growing up, the stuff is considered common sense. 463 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: A lot of the opinions I have I heard around 464 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: the dinner table at my home. My parents were political moderates, 465 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: my mother was a registered Democrat. I think what used 466 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: to be regarded as and is still here's the thing, 467 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: it's still regarded as mainstream, common sense, moderate opinion in 468 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: the real world among real people, and of course discussed 469 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: in people's living rooms and around dinner tables all the 470 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: time is now regarded as unacceptable in the university. The 471 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: university sees these opinions as ultra right conservative extreme views. 472 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: So it's only in the distorted world of academia that 473 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: positions and beliefs like mine are consider it extraordinary. You know, 474 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: a fight on this scale against an institution the size 475 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: of the in responsiblitia must be very expensive. You've going 476 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: to go fund me and we're going to post that 477 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: on our show page. Yes, that's true. If people want 478 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: to contribute, and I would be very grateful. We will 479 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: post that on our show page so that people can 480 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: have easy access to for your help. Because you know, 481 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: you're taking on a huge system and a big bureaucracy 482 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: in a university, it has very deep pockets to persecute people. Absolutely, 483 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: and I'm learning that the hard way. I want to 484 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: thank you for your courage and your refusal to back down, 485 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: because sometimes that's the way history gets made and somebody 486 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: just has the courage to stand there and say no, 487 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: and I really appreciate it. I want you to know 488 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: that I'm very impressed with your calmness and the fact 489 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: that you're willing to defend common sense, even if it 490 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: is uncommon and the strange world you find yourself in. Well, 491 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: you know, we owe it to our young people, the 492 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: people coming up behind us, to stand up for what's right. 493 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: And I keep that in mind all the time, the 494 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: young people coming after us. That's why we need to 495 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: stand up to this insanity. I agree. I want to 496 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: thank you very very much and I hope that everything 497 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: is going to work out, and I have a hunch 498 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: it probably will. Thank you, Thank you for having me on. 499 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, professor Amy Wax. You can 500 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: get a link to donate to our legal defense fund 501 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World 502 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: is produced by Yinglis Street sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 503 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, and 504 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 1: our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 505 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley special thanks to the team 506 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: at Gingwish Street sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 507 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 508 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 509 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 510 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: newts World can sign up for my three free weekly 511 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: columns at gingwistreet sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 512 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: This is news World,