WEBVTT - CCS Extends Its Reach Beyond Oil and Gas 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.680 This is Dana Perkins and your listening to Switched on 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.240 the B and EF podcast. So back in twenty twenty 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.200 was the last time that we dedicated an episode here 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.120 on this show to carbon capture and storage, and at 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.960 the time we discussed it in terms of an emerging 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:20.120 technology which could become important in the future for reducing emissions. Well, 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.080 perhaps now the future has come. Within the intervening period. 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.560 CCS looks like it has been growing fast, with the 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.840 investment in CCS having more than doubled year on year 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.120 as of Q one twenty twenty three. The total capacity 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.960 of projects under development as of late twenty twenty two 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.479 stood at two hundred and forty four million tons per annum. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.640 That's up forty four percent from the year before. So 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.760 which industries and sectors are driving this growth, why are 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.239 they looking at CCS in particular, and how does it 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.479 compare with other carbon abatement strategies. Today's show draws from 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.680 the recent BNF Carbon Capture and Storage market outlook, and 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.279 who better to speak with us about this topic than 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.280 two members of our Sustainable Materials team. The head of 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:08.240 the team, alent Tom Abraham, alongside Anastasia Tomasidu. Together, we 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.600 discuss the different industries that are utilizing carbon capture and 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.600 storage technology, including oil, gas, cement, and hydrogen and the 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.600 costs involved for each along with other hard to abate areas. 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.920 In the show, we also get into how carbon capture 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.920 is transported and stored In addition to some of the 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.959 surprising things that it can be used for, we also 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.440 address the potential bottlenecks for storing CO two and whether 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.480 it could pose a threat for the expansion of CCS. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.319 And lastly, we get into the role that policy plays 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.640 in the adoption of CCS technology, in which countries are 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:47.600 actively encouraging rollout with reforms and how effective they've actually been. 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.320 As always, if you like this podcast, if you subscribe, 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.360 you're going to receive an update when we publish future episodes, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.640 and if you give us a review on Apple Podcasts 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.280 or Spotify or any other players, it will make us 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.720 more discoverable by others. But right now, let's jump into 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:07.200 my conversation with Alan and Anastasia about where the CCS 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:21.000 market has gotten to since we last discussed it. Anna, 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.919 thank you very much for joining today. Thank you and Alan, 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:24.959 good to have you on the show. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:25.280 As well. 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.720 Thank you, Dana. Very excited for this conversation. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.480 Well, I'm looking forward to it because this is one 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.840 of those topics that we're revisiting because things have changed, 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.440 and that's always a good thing to see technology move 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.680 forward and for markets to be this kind of constantly 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.239 evolving thing. We're talking about carbon capture and storage today, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.760 and my first question is a definition, one which does 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.640 seem to be where I head at the beginning of 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.239 many shows, because there's a lot of vernacular and one 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.519 thing I've noticed was that a couple of years back, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:58.639 everyone was saying CCUS as opposed to CCS. Now I'm 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.680 noticing CCS being back as the go to term. Would 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.040 you be able to clarify the difference between the two 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.360 and essentially which term we're going to use for the 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:09.559 remainder of our conversation today. 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.200 Carbon capture and storage is what is referred to as CCS, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.919 and carbon capture utilization and storage is what is referred 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:21.000 to as CCUS. Now, the utilization part is important because 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.639 a lot of companies previously thought that they could capture 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.240 carbon and then use it for certain applications like creating 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.720 synthetic fuels or any other particular applications that they would 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.400 look for. But because of the maturity and policy, as 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.840 well as some incentives that are coming out in certain 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.840 markets which favor storage, the industry is starting to slowly 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.560 shift towards storage, and that's becoming a more important part 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.080 of the whole carbon captured discussion. And that's why you 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.200 have rightly noticed that a lot of discussions are now 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.680 focusing on ccs instead of ccus, but both are relevant. 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.400 What was the utilization part? What was it being used 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:57.720 for in a way that was economically beneficial. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.360 Historically most of it was used for enhancing oil production 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.560 from oil wells. You captured the CU two injected to 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.120 new oil wells and you increase the output from these 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.640 oil wells. Or you could also use it for carbonation 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.600 of beverages, for example, into your soda. That's also one 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.560 particular application. Or you could use it as a greenhouse 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.919 for increasing agricultural output in greenhouse versus agricultural production. So 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.640 different applications, but not very scalable. 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.200 I would say it's possible I drank a soda of 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.640 CCUS captured carbon. This is something that may have happened 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:34.839 and I didn't even realize it. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.400 Yes, if you were in the US, if. 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.640 I was in the US. We'll come to the regional 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.640 aspect of this particular technology application in a minute, but 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.360 let's talk a little bit right now about why this 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.560 is time for us to be talking about this. This 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.600 technology has become more prevalent, more often talked about, and 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.520 really in your mind. I mean, I know why we 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.159 asked you to come on the show, but why do 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.880 you think that there was a catalyst for you to 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.400 you talk about this topic and for us to revisit 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:03.520 CCS at this time. 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.800 So in the last decade, we've seen huge investment in 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.880 this technology, so many new projects and some Mu's news 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.680 it says capacity being announced. Between twenty twenty since we 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.440 last had a conversation, more than forty million tons of 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:23.480 capacity has been announced, which might sound huge, but by 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:25.720 the end of this decade, an additional three hundred and 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:30.120 seventy million tons of zotocupture capacity has been announced. So 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.520 this has been a massive change over the last few years. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.760 This is something that we always try to look at 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.080 how fast the industry is moving bar and we try 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.599 to capture it in our market outlooks. And one of 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.120 the things that we started noticing when we went about 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.760 writing this market outlook was two other important things that 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.719 were changing. One is we discussed about the use of 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:54.400 carbon dioxide and where it eventually ends. And historically most 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.000 of the carbon diexcite, like I mentioned, was used for 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.000 enhanced soil togory. About sixty percent of the carbon great 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.440 capacity historically used the CO two to enhance oil recovery. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.200 But when we look into the future twenty thirty twenty 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.240 thirty five, we are starting to see that flip. About 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.120 seventy five percent of the carbon capture capacity is now 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.479 trying to use the carbon dioxide and storing it away 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.719 permanently in deep geological reserves, when compared to just twenty 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.760 five percent today. So huge shift in terms of like 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.599 where we are sending the carbon dioxide that we're starting 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.040 to capture. And the other one is, of course we're 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.960 starting to see a divergence in terms of the geographical 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.880 footprint of the projects that are starting to be announced. Historically, 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.320 the US has been the largest market. The US continues 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.880 to be the largest market, but new large projects are 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:48.080 starting to come up in markets such as Canada, the UK, Germany, Netherlands, 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.320 and even the Middle East. So that's another difference that 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.360 we're starting to see when we look at the market 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:54.880 over the last three to four years. 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.359 Just thought something to what Alan has just said. 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.920 Another pig defense is in which sector is the capacity 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.000 is actually being added, And historically most of the capacity 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.160 was in natural gas processing plants, but now we see 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:12.480 lots of investment in sectors like hydrogen and cement and power, 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.920 especially in the US, and this diversification in terms of 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.360 verre city is supplied is also driving this huge capacity 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:21.720 boom that we're seeing. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.480 So you mentioned that the US has been and continues 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.320 to be a dominant player in this space. So let's 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.360 talk a little bit about the geographical split. This is 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.000 a popular technology from what you're telling me, in the West, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.520 but why why do you think that it is found 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.920 predominantly in North America and in Europe. 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.520 It's two reasons. One is, like I said, one of 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.360 the reasons for the dominance of the US when it 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.000 comes to carbon captic capacity is that the oil and 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.560 gas companies in the US have been at the forefront 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.239 of using this technology to improve the oil output from 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.760 their production facilities. And that's one of the reasons that 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.400 many of the projects that were initially located were in. 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.640 The US, and is that because perhaps national oil companies 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.560 are less interested at least until this point, in directly 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.720 managing their emissions with this technology. 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.760 It's two ways. One is the emissions is one part 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.480 of it. The other part is, of course, like how 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.280 do you increase the efficiency of your oil and gas 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.000 production as well and improve its output. So I would 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.720 say it's a balancing of both of these different parameters. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.720 But it also looks at how some of these US 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.240 based oil and gas companies were looking at this technology 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.760 as a way to understand how carbon capture works out. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.400 And there has been some historical incentives that also helped 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.480 in propping up this industry in the US and even 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.000 in markets like Canada where you used the captured carbon 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:45.040 dioxide in order to extract more oil and it created 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.280 a value stream for the captured carbon dioxide. Unfortunately, in 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.440 other markets outside of North America, we did not see 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.840 a value proposition for using the carbon dioxide that was captured, 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.200 and that's as a result you see very little projects 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.000 that were built in other markets. And when it comes 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.400 comes to why the US is leading, a lot of 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.199 that is coming down to again the activity of the 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.640 largest players in the market today, they're understanding about the technology. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.920 And also because the Inflation Reduction Act actually came out 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.400 with huge incentives that were offered to carbon capture projects 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.480 over the next ten to twelve years. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:23.480 So the usiras created financial incentives for this to do well. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.840 But before that took place, you mentioned efficiency being something 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.520 that these companies, the oil and gas community is looking 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.240 for when they're looking at ccs. Is it something that 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.480 helps them make money in the right circumstances or is 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.760 it always an additional cost For the. 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.160 Oil and gas companies, they had to pay a very 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.920 small amount for getting the carbon dioxide from an industrial 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.040 facility or even their own applications. So if they owned 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.280 a refinery or if they owned a natural gas processing facility, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.240 they already had to remove the carbon dioxide from these 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.440 processes and as a result, you ended up adding a 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.920 cost to your existing operational facility. Now you could use 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.920 that carbon dioxide to increase your oil output or your 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.640 gas output on the other hand, which meant you created 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.960 more value by using that cost to create more revenue 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.840 or profit from using that. So that was basically the 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:17.960 balancing act that the companies were trying to achieve. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.320 Here has the emissions trading scheme in Europe, so the 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.559 EU ETS has that been a big catalyst for ccs. 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.280 Like I said, the Europe has never been a big 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.280 market for carbon capture and storage, except for some of 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.360 the markets in the Nordics, such as Norway, where a 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.559 certain carbon tax in the very early stages in the 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.080 in the in the in the nineties, and you know 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.840 in the early two thousands started promoting a lot of 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:48.360 carbon capture projects in Norway. But beyond Norway, carbon capture 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.080 has never been a tool that has been used effectively 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.240 for emissions reduction in Europe. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.120 Let's talk a bit about prices then, because we're here 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.480 talking about different schemes that make it more than official 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:02.640 in certain parts of the world because the government is 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.920 supporting it. What is the current cost and really what 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.920 are some of our projections around where ccs might go 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:10.360 from a pricing standpoint. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.880 So these one of the things we have recently explored 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.440 in our research, looting at the cost of capture per 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.240 ton of CO two in various different industries, some of 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.960 which we've mentioned already, And the type of industry makes 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.720 a huge difference because in each industry of gases that 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.480 are emitted from which we capture the COO two from 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:33.040 have varying concentrations of CO two. The higher the concentration, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.559 that cheaper it is to capture it. So for high 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.040 concentration sources like natural gas processing and ethanol, the costs 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.040 are cheaper and they vary between twenty to forty dollars 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.040 per ton of CO two, whereas in other sectors where 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.160 concentration of cootwo is lower, like in hydrogen and cement, 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.680 the costs can be as high as eighty dollars per time, 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.000 so almost double. 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.760 And this is because when concentration of cootwo is. 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.720 Lower, more energy is needed, more where solvents are needed, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.920 and per equipment is needed to capture the same amount 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:05.960 of SOO two. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.640 So let's talk about those industries where this is a 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.640 really prime solution. You mentioned cement, steel, I'm hearing hard 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.000 to abate sectors. This is one of the solutions for 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:20.800 those parts of the economy that cannot electrify readily. What 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.760 would you say, or maybe the top few, top five 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.680 hard to abate sectors where CCS is really becoming increasingly popular. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:30.840 There are two ways to look at it. One is 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.080 based on the announced pipeline of projects from now through 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.600 twenty thirty five, and the other is in sectors where 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.160 it is essential to deploy ccs in order to get 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.520 to net zero. So let me address it in two parts. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.560 On the first part, which is based on the announced 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.240 pipeline of projects, when we look at the period from 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.000 now through twenty thirty five, most of the carbon capture 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.640 capacity is now targeted towards the production of hydrogen or ammonia, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.120 and again a large portion of it located in the 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.800 US and then comes in streets such as power, where 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.679 again about nineteen percent of the capacity by twenty thirty 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.880 five based on the announced pipeline of projects, could be 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.320 for capturing CU too from coal and gas power plants 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.320 in various parts of the world substantial number again, and 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.720 the third largest category when it comes to cthiu's capacity 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.440 by twenty thirty five could be natural gas processing, which 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.880 is the dominant use case today. So these three sectors 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.720 still become one of the most important ones. But the 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.080 interesting part here is that hydrogen and power were not 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.880 historically big sectors for carbon capture, and they are starting 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.840 to be emerges. Two very important sectors for carbon capture 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.679 capacity by twenty thirty five, and you talked about hard 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.480 to beat industries like cement and steel. These industries do 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.360 require carbon capture in order to reduce emissions and to 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.720 get to net zero. But when you look at the 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.480 timeline between now and twenty thirty five, unfortunately very few 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.200 companies are really looking at investing in this technology in 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.680 order to reduce emissions. As a result, only about seven 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.120 percent of the capacity by twenty thirty five could be 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:58.880 deployed in these two sectors. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:03.280 How low in CCS technology actually get the emissions coming 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.440 from these sectors. I'm assuming that it does not get 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:10.360 to zero, it does not wipe out the emissions. I'm 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.560 also assuming that it varies widely depending upon the density 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.680 of the carbon, as you had mentioned, So I guess 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.160 what the question I'm really asking is how good is it? 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.680 How effective is it in removing carbon from carbon intensive industries? 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.040 So this varies a lot. Most facilities aim for at 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.080 least ninety percent of the COETO to be captured, and 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.680 there's some facilities that have proven to be able to 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.120 capture a ninety five percent. There's interesting companies that claim 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.440 that they can capture more than ninety nine percent of 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.040 their emissions. But this is something that has only been 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:46.560 tested at small scale facilities and not actually been employed 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.320 in commercial plants. So it's something that we're also finding 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.200 very interesting. How much can they actually capture and can 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.360 they prove that they can capture as much as they 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:55.320 claim they come. 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.760 Well, then let's talk a little bit about the different 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:02.240 technologies that are out there. What is the dominant CCS 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.000 technology and is there a good amount of innovation either 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.080 from within oil and gas companies who are using CCS 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.000 or actually with startups that are VC funded. Really where's 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.520 the change coming from in terms of advancement of this technology, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.720 because it's been around for quite some time. I mean, 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.680 this has been a topic that the industry within decarbonization 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.440 we have discussed for many years. 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.720 I guess let's start from the beginning. There's firstly, three main. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.000 Parts of the process that we can capture CO two 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.920 from pre combustion, post combustion, and oxy combustion capture, and 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.120 their names kind of reveal what these means. So pre 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.720 combustion removes COO two from fossil fuels before the fuel 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.920 is actually burned, and this has a big benefit in 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.320 the sense that this gas has high partial pressures of 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.160 CO two, which makes the process quite efficient, but this 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.160 is hard to retrofit and implement that existing facilities. Post 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:59.440 combustion cupture happens after the fuel is combusted, and this 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.040 is the most commonly used approach and what most of 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.320 these large scale industrial plants use. Now, this is very 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.920 easy to retrofit to existing plants, but is a less 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:12.480 efficient process. And then, lastly, oxyfuel combustion is when instead 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.400 of air, we use a pure oxygen stream for a 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.200 combustion of the fuel and this generates a nearly pure 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.680 stream of cootwo which bypasses any subsequent capture processes and 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:25.520 the costs associated with them. 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.720 But how do we actually capture the CO two? How 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:30.680 do we actually get it? So? 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.440 The liquid absorption is by far the leading and most 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.680 mature technology and is the only technology that has been 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:41.360 used in large scale commercial plants. In this technology, the 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:46.120 CO two is essentially dissolved in a solvent, a liquid 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.840 solvent and is then released to create this pure CO 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.560 two stream that we can capture and the solvent is regenerated. 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:58.320 Many companies provide this technology, for example, MHI it'swishy and shell. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.000 They provide aimine based solvents to capture CO two, and 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.919 aimines have been around for years as this is the 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.680 benchmark technology, it's what has been traditionally used. But today 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.240 this is quite expensive, it has quite high energy requirements. 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.280 It spares some environmental concerns in terms of aimines being 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.040 leaked in the atmosphere. So there is a few companies 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.520 that are working on developing new innovative solutions, solvents with 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.760 different chemistries that don't rely on aimings at all, but 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.879 also completely different approaches like solid absorption where the CO 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.119 two is trapped but in the pores of very highly 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.400 porced materials, or things like membrane. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.920 Capture and by quite expensive. Put that in nominal terms 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:41.199 for me. 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.680 So as we talked about earlier, this varies so much 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.480 depending on the concentration of CO two in the off cases, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.840 and it can vary from around forty dollars per ton 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.520 of CO two to eighty dollars per ton of CO two. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.600 But as mentioned, the energy requirements for these plants are huge. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.560 Is there more to add? Are there more technology advancements 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.919 that are quite different technically speaking from the one you 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:09.159 just outlined. 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.680 So other than what I just talked about, so developing 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.960 different new more efficient solvents, new sorpents, solid serpents, and membranes. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.640 Many companies are working on the equipment itself and how 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.480 the process works. And many companies are not looking at 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.119 creating modulary solutions, which makes capital expenditure much lower. They 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.920 can create these standardized solutions that also leads to economies 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.400 of scale, so they can reduce cost a lot. Many 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.960 companies are looking at implementing KEAT integration and recovering their 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.800 systems to lower these huge energy requirements that we talked about. 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.320 These are some of the things they're working on. Also 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.680 simpler things like the arrangement of the equipment, how them 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.919 solid out serpents are packed in the equipment that's being used. 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:55.880 Just lots is going on. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.639 So we're talking an awful lot about the captured technology, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:02.399 but I want to pivot a little bit to talking 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.119 about what happens after we have all this carbon. So 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.960 if it's not going into my next soda, where is 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.439 it being stored and what are we actually doing with 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.120 it to make sure that it doesn't go back into 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:15.880 the atmosphere. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.440 Very good question, thankfully, if it's in soda, it ends 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.920 up in human beings. But otherwise what generly used to 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.880 happen is it used to be used for enhanced oil recovery. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.720 And as I mentioned, most of the capacity that's expected 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.200 to come in the next ten to fifteen years is 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.680 actually now pivoting towards storing this carbon for long periods 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.720 of time in deep geological reserves. It can be saliine 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.200 equifers or depleted oil and gas reserves. About seventy five 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.960 percent of the capacity, as I mentioned. Now, the big 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.360 question there is whether we have the infrastructure to ensure 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.800 that the CU two that is captured in these industrial 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.000 facilities get transported and the storage facilities and the transport 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.960 infrastructure is available. And that becomes another important aspect when 0:19:57.960 --> 0:19:59.639 we think about carbon captured. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.160 Is it transported? Is it put on trucks, trains, pipelines. 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.119 It can be done on any of these, but typically 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.720 most of them target to use pipelines, large pipelines where 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.399 you compress the carbon dioxide into a fluid state and 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.080 then push it along these pipelines into storage way wells 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.560 which are either within land boundaries or even offshore. And 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:28.000 it depends on the strategy from a company's perspective as 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.680 well as you know what different countries have in mind 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.000 when it comes to how to address the CEO to 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:34.359 that is being captured. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.360 We're putting it into the ground. Are there specific geological 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.760 conditions which must be required in order to be able 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.520 to store it or is it really just up to 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.480 having the space from a land use standpoint in order 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:48.360 to put it somewhere. 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.760 Typically the best places to park your CEO two is 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.879 deep geological reserves like Celia aquifers, which are either found 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.400 within land boundaries or even offshore. Now, what I mentioned 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.600 when it comes to how different countries are looking at 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.720 it differently, is that most of the capacity that is proposed, 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.880 say in the US, looks at storing carbon dioxide within 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.439 the land boundaries on shore, but when you come to 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.159 Europe there's a slightly different approach where most countries like 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.040 Germany for example, do not want carbon dioxide to be 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.840 stored within their land boundaries and as a result, they 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.640 want to push it outside deep offshore into depleted oil 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.960 and gas reserves or even Serie aquifers which are offshore. 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.840