Speaker 1: Here in Silicon Valley, there's been this entrenched myth for
Speaker 1: decades around the kind of person you need to be
Speaker 1: to be a successful entrepreneur, that to take a startup
Speaker 1: from scratch and turn it into a multibillion dollar business
Speaker 1: that changes the world, you have to be brash and
Speaker 1: loud and brutal dictatorial, even to be the alpha male
Speaker 1: in the room. Think about all the things written about
Speaker 1: the late Apple founder of Steve Jobs, or Amazon founder
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos, or Uber CEO Travis Clanic, who at least
Speaker 1: until recently, seemed to revel in his public persona as
Speaker 1: a controversial, cutthroat leader. And in this industry that celebrates
Speaker 1: men like this, there's a pair of co founders who
Speaker 1: have faded into the background. They're quiet and polite and understated.
Speaker 1: They don't seek the limelight in the eyes of his
Speaker 1: journalists who graved drama. You could even say that they're
Speaker 1: a little bit boring. Meet Pinterest co founders Evan Sharp
Speaker 1: and Ben Silberman. Ben and I better low tolerance for
Speaker 1: for ego, a little tolerance for people who are assles,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, we prefer to build a great,
Speaker 1: ambitious business for people through each other at dignity by default,
Speaker 1: so that's something that's a little bit unique. Surprisingly, maybe
Speaker 1: that's what what has been perceived as, like, Oh, you know,
Speaker 1: the pinterest founder is a very slow and study. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's just that you guys aren't assholes. There was a
Speaker 1: time when pinterest was one of the buzziest startups in
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. Investors valued the company at eleven billion dollars,
Speaker 1: But recently people don't really talk much about Pinterest. I've
Speaker 1: been asking venture capitalists what they think of the company.
Speaker 1: Their answer most of the time is that they don't
Speaker 1: think about pinterests much at all. But in the background,
Speaker 1: away from the spotlight, pinterest says it's been quietly insteadily
Speaker 1: building out its business all along. Its founders Ben and Evan,
Speaker 1: as well as president Tim Kendall, spoke to us in
Speaker 1: a very rare interview. Hi, I'm Akiito and I'm Fara Fryar,
Speaker 1: and this weekend Decrypted, we'll be taking you inside a
Speaker 1: company that you might have forgotten about. Despite the company's
Speaker 1: low profile these days, it's actually still the most valuable
Speaker 1: startup in the world, according to a list kept by
Speaker 1: the research company CB Insights. While we were busy analyzing
Speaker 1: this and that melodrama erupting at our favorite startups. Pinterest
Speaker 1: has been at work preparing for its second act. Can
Speaker 1: thinterest capture our attention again? Or like so many other
Speaker 1: startups in this business that burst onto the scene only
Speaker 1: to be overshadowed by the next new thing, will they
Speaker 1: just fade out of you? So we shared tips on
Speaker 1: going to the flower Mark which is just across the street,
Speaker 1: which is wonderful. Nice animal welfare aspects of keeping a
Speaker 1: chicken in your backyard? Is that most of the chickens okay?
Speaker 1: So Sarah tell us what we're listening to here. A
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, I was invited into an internal
Speaker 1: company in conference at pinterest called nit Con. It was
Speaker 1: the most pinteresting thing ever. What were they doing like
Speaker 1: all the cool d I y stuff you can view
Speaker 1: on the app. Their own employees were doing demos for
Speaker 1: each other and ads engineering exact demo beer brewing. Another
Speaker 1: engineer was demoing latte art i ate some carbonated grapes.
Speaker 1: Did that taste good? Oh my god, it was. They
Speaker 1: were very strange and it sounds like a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: Everyone was so nice. I've had a great time and
Speaker 1: this was a company wide thing. Yeah, even in the
Speaker 1: international offices. It sounds like kind of a silly thing
Speaker 1: for an entire company to commit to. But I guess
Speaker 1: if they invited you to attend this thing in the
Speaker 1: first place, they must have cared about it too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it is. It is very important. Business is
Speaker 1: basically about inspiration. You go there to find images of
Speaker 1: things you want to do, places you want to see,
Speaker 1: food you want to make, you collect them, and if
Speaker 1: you show an interest in certain things interests, well, you know,
Speaker 1: the algorithm will show you more things like that. Like
Speaker 1: the employee who was making carbonated grapes. He was actually
Speaker 1: really all into the crazy things you could do with
Speaker 1: whipping cancers, like instantly infused tequila or make nice fluffy,
Speaker 1: microwavable cake batter in addition to the public rape and Sarah,
Speaker 1: I can't say I've ever really used pinterest myself. I
Speaker 1: don't think I really get it. But you said you
Speaker 1: use it pretty regularly. Yeah. I basically only use it
Speaker 1: on the private secret setting to plan a wet and
Speaker 1: it's really the only place you can easily compare image
Speaker 1: inspiration of things like dresses, Bouquet's color combinations, at least
Speaker 1: for now. Today's Pinterest has one hundred seventy five million
Speaker 1: monthly active users. That's decent, but not tons. Snapchat, which
Speaker 1: is a much younger company, has about that many daily
Speaker 1: active users. Twitter has over three hundred million monthly, Instagram
Speaker 1: six hundred million, Facebook almost two billion. Yeah, at seven
Speaker 1: years old, it's not growing quite as fast as some
Speaker 1: of the others, and the company is relying on word
Speaker 1: of mouth to win more users. The way Exact tell it,
Speaker 1: pinterest biggest problem is that people like you can't think
Speaker 1: of a reason you'd want to use it because they think,
Speaker 1: why do I need another social network? But here's Pinterest.
Speaker 1: Co founder Evan I would say emphatically, Pinterest is not
Speaker 1: a social network. And I and when I say that,
Speaker 1: because here you don't come to Pinterest to share pints.
Speaker 1: Is not about expressing yourself to others. It's out about
Speaker 1: sharing with friends. Pinterest is much more like a search
Speaker 1: engine than it is a social network. People who come
Speaker 1: to Pinterest thinking it's like Facebook or Instagram, they don't
Speaker 1: have a great experience because they upload a photo and
Speaker 1: then they're expecting to get feedback. But that's not what
Speaker 1: Pinterest is for. And so that misconception can also make
Speaker 1: it more difficult for some people to understand what pinterest
Speaker 1: is and how it can be useful for them. And
Speaker 1: in this environment where people don't quite get Pinterest, here's
Speaker 1: the biggest threat to the company that an app that
Speaker 1: you already use will start offering you the same features
Speaker 1: as Pinterest, so you'll never end up having to use
Speaker 1: it at all. Here's CEO and co founder Ben I mean,
Speaker 1: as a smaller company relative to the tech giants at Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Um,
Speaker 1: it's not negotiable that we have to move really really quickly.
Speaker 1: Otherwise what happens, well, otherwise, like you get you get eliminated, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just the story of technology. Are are
Speaker 1: companies just like eliminating other companies. There's one search engine,
Speaker 1: there's one dominant social network, there's one dominant e commerce player,
Speaker 1: And so if you're going to carve out of space,
Speaker 1: you have to be you have to move really quickly
Speaker 1: to own that space. How confident are you that you
Speaker 1: own it? I think we're off to a good start,
Speaker 1: but we have a lot of work to do. It
Speaker 1: seems like every day there's another Pinterest like thing that
Speaker 1: gets built into Instagram or Google or Amazon. For Pinterest,
Speaker 1: this threat of these larger companies taking over their features
Speaker 1: is very real. Just last week, Google announced that you'll
Speaker 1: be able to shop via image search for example. Instagram
Speaker 1: this week announced that you can start to collect inspirational photos.
Speaker 1: But given how competitive this space is, it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like Ben and Evan have been really aggressive in the field.
Speaker 1: They appeared on the cover of Forbes with the caption
Speaker 1: move over Zuck. Pinterest has a revenue model that puts
Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter to shame. That might have been too
Speaker 1: optimistic in hindsight. Well, talking with Tim Kendall, the company's president,
Speaker 1: it's clear that there's still a big gap between Pinterest
Speaker 1: and the tech companies that it's sometimes compared with accelerating. Um,
Speaker 1: it's quite very fast. Is it great faster than they
Speaker 1: did last year? Um, it's hard from It depends on
Speaker 1: what you depends on what you measure, like how you
Speaker 1: measure it, Like, I don't want to say something it's
Speaker 1: like factually inaccurate. We're really pleased with the trajectory UM
Speaker 1: and my standards for trajectory a very high because I've
Speaker 1: seen big trajectories up up close and it's a it's
Speaker 1: a really good trajectory. So it sounds like not the
Speaker 1: kind of explicit growth that we've become so accustomed to
Speaker 1: in the valley. Well, more slow and study testing new
Speaker 1: ad features with small groups of advertisers and then broadening
Speaker 1: to larger groups. So how how big could pinterest be
Speaker 1: in in five years? Oh? I I think it could
Speaker 1: be um in terms of revenue, you know, billions and billions,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it could be a huge company.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about again, if we are
Speaker 1: the place that you go on your phone to figure
Speaker 1: out what you're going to do with your life, from
Speaker 1: the small to the big, from the near term to
Speaker 1: the long term, like we become this this planning capability
Speaker 1: that just be almost essential to people in the same
Speaker 1: way that that Google became essential to people when they
Speaker 1: knew what they were looking for. Sources tell me pinterest
Speaker 1: is aiming to make more than five million dollars in
Speaker 1: revenue this year, so that's still a long way to
Speaker 1: go before billions. It's seen it's been hard for them
Speaker 1: to grow internationally, in part because it's a product that's
Speaker 1: so varied and culturally specific to users around the world.
Speaker 1: Not everyone is interested in Easter egg decorating ideas for example. Right,
Speaker 1: But finally, pinterest has more users outside the US than inside.
Speaker 1: In Kendall, the company's president told me they're only just
Speaker 1: getting started when it comes to making money from those
Speaker 1: guys and building out that revenue stream could could be slow.
Speaker 1: And is pinterest doing okay financially well? The company sets
Speaker 1: some very aggressive targets for itself and then didn't reach them,
Speaker 1: according to report in tech Crunch. But they're doing just fine.
Speaker 1: The last rays of three sixty seven million was in
Speaker 1: and then there's actual revenue coming in funding this expansion
Speaker 1: around the world. Still, like a lot of Silicon Valley startups,
Speaker 1: pinterest isn't making a profit an you have plenty of
Speaker 1: money from the last SEMy rays. Still you are you?
Speaker 1: You guys are profitable. We're not profitable, right, But if
Speaker 1: you were profitable, that would mean you weren't spending on growth.
Speaker 1: The revenue that comes in gets put into I mean,
Speaker 1: we re invested in the business. Maybe that explains why
Speaker 1: I've been hearing about this company's eventual I p O
Speaker 1: since Yeah, it feels like Snapchat, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: went from rumors to i p O fairly quickly. For
Speaker 1: a company to make its case convincingly to Wall Street
Speaker 1: and other investors, it needs to be able to show
Speaker 1: that it can make money reliably, and that if it's
Speaker 1: not already profitable, there's a clear strategy for getting there.
Speaker 1: Wall Street investors want explosive growth when they invest into
Speaker 1: slok On Valley Company. This is what Tim told me
Speaker 1: when I asked him about it. So you said, you're
Speaker 1: you're not really thinking about or you're not discussing I
Speaker 1: p O internally currently plants any plants we're discussing it? Um?
Speaker 1: Are we discussing it internally? I don't know how to comment. Um,
Speaker 1: But what do you think is the time frame that
Speaker 1: makes sense for today? I mean, we don't. We really
Speaker 1: don't have plans. Yeah, yeah, so there's not we don't
Speaker 1: have plan, so there isn't a timeframe. But you don't
Speaker 1: want to be acquired by like Google or something. I
Speaker 1: think Ben has been really clear that we want to
Speaker 1: be a standalone, independent company, and and that's definitely that's
Speaker 1: why I'm here. You don't need the money right now, No,
Speaker 1: I mean the businesses the business is on a great
Speaker 1: trajectory um and and I think that we're I think
Speaker 1: we've grown in a really smart way that's put the
Speaker 1: position to put the company position where we have lots
Speaker 1: of degrees of freedom, um, such that we're not going
Speaker 1: to be in a position where we'll be forced to
Speaker 1: do something that isn't in the best interest of building
Speaker 1: sustainable kind of independent company. Okay, So reading between the
Speaker 1: lines here, it does sound like they're inching a little
Speaker 1: bit closer, but that they have a lot more that
Speaker 1: they have to prove first. Yeah, especially if they're hoping
Speaker 1: for their company to be valued highly. When they last
Speaker 1: raised money, the company is worth eleven billion on paper,
Speaker 1: but people told me that pinterest would be unlikely to
Speaker 1: fetch those kinds of numbers. Right now, pinterest still has
Speaker 1: a bit to prove. Talking to the founders, it sounds
Speaker 1: like they think the path to new users and eventually
Speaker 1: revenue growth is improving the product. And the interesting thing
Speaker 1: about pinterest is somehow they've ended up in a lot
Speaker 1: of Silicon valleys buzziest investment areas, artificial intelligence, computer vision.
Speaker 1: It's something that pinterest board member Jeremy Levine is really
Speaker 1: excited about. Jeremy is a partner at the venture capital
Speaker 1: for Embesssamer Venture Partners, which is one of interest biggest investors.
Speaker 1: The company continues to innovate in a really compelling way,
Speaker 1: and so in its early days, um it was sort
Speaker 1: of a leader in visual discovery and sort of the
Speaker 1: great format that has not been copied many times over
Speaker 1: by other services on the internet. But even you know,
Speaker 1: very recently they launched this unbelievably cool search feature UM.
Speaker 1: I used it all the time on my phone and
Speaker 1: it allows you to take a picture of a physical
Speaker 1: object and use that as a launching pad for search UM.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of an amazing integration of machine vision technology. Well,
Speaker 1: Pinterest has these a hundred seventy five million monthly active
Speaker 1: users actually labeling images as part of the way they
Speaker 1: use the platform, and so it opens up some great
Speaker 1: technical opportunities that other companies might not have access to.
Speaker 1: Here's Evan, the co founder, talking about how it works.
Speaker 1: You know what I would say about computer vision is
Speaker 1: you need two things. You need more rellion, two things
Speaker 1: you need the computer vision algorithms themselves. Right, So what
Speaker 1: enables your your phone to say taking and take an
Speaker 1: image and say here are the five things in that image?
Speaker 1: And then you need the catalog, right, the data to
Speaker 1: match results back to that image. And that's what we
Speaker 1: have that's distinctive. You know, five ten years from now,
Speaker 1: the algorithms for computer vision will be relatively commodified. But
Speaker 1: won't won't be is that is the catalog itself and
Speaker 1: the data we have. And so by really focusing on
Speaker 1: enriching that catalog and making it really actionable and leveraging
Speaker 1: all of our curation data, right, people are saving hundreds
Speaker 1: of millions of things all the time. Actually, here's a
Speaker 1: way of saying it, right. You could you could say
Speaker 1: that we have a computer vision team of four or
Speaker 1: five people if you look at the engineers, or you
Speaker 1: could say that we have a computer vision team of
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five million plus people because all the
Speaker 1: people on Pinterests are out there saving things supports there's
Speaker 1: definitely a chicken and egg with the catalog. We call
Speaker 1: it the catalog and the user base. But the good
Speaker 1: thing is that a lot of Pinterests is people saving
Speaker 1: ideas from around the up to their boards, to their collections.
Speaker 1: And so as we start to grow internationally or catalog
Speaker 1: grows along with it. So what do you make of
Speaker 1: Pinterest envisioning itself as basically the Google for images is
Speaker 1: do you think this is an achievable target? Well, I
Speaker 1: guess they would say more the Google for ideas Pinterest.
Speaker 1: Whole argument seems to be that you search for facts
Speaker 1: on Google like what temperature do you need the oven
Speaker 1: to be at? Hooked chicken? You search for ideas on
Speaker 1: Pinterest like how should I season or prepare the chicken?
Speaker 1: And now with the AI, it's like I took a
Speaker 1: picture of this chicken dish? What is it? And is
Speaker 1: there a recipe? And Pinterest will show you dishes that
Speaker 1: look like it and other things you may not even
Speaker 1: have thought of. That sounds pretty amazing. Do they actually
Speaker 1: have the technology to do it? I tried it with kale.
Speaker 1: It's actually pretty impressive, But you need to get people
Speaker 1: to use it, and that's a different challenge. You know.
Speaker 1: That's especially making to me given how small pinterest engineering
Speaker 1: team is. We just heard Evans say that there's only
Speaker 1: four or five engineers in his computer vision team. Facebook, Amazon, Google,
Speaker 1: They must have hundreds of engineers working on these problems
Speaker 1: and they're going all in on AI two. Well, those companies,
Speaker 1: though larger, aren't used the way Pinterest is, So they
Speaker 1: don't have this database of people's aspirations. What do you mean?
Speaker 1: Like these guys are saying you go to Pinterest to
Speaker 1: decide what you want to do or buy, or see
Speaker 1: or experience. So it's tied to activities like travel, remodeling,
Speaker 1: cooking babies, whereas on Facebook you might talk about what
Speaker 1: you've done already. So really it's an advertiser's dream. Here's
Speaker 1: Tim again. We're the first company that's taken that commercial
Speaker 1: discovery experience and put it on the phone in a
Speaker 1: way where people get lots of utility because they actually
Speaker 1: are able to plan their lives in a way. It's
Speaker 1: great for them and completely aligned with what businesses and
Speaker 1: advertisers want to do, which is that they want to
Speaker 1: connect with the right people who are interested in their
Speaker 1: products or services. So you know, I joined because I
Speaker 1: think it's the most interesting business to be built since
Speaker 1: gool Will built AdWords sixteen years ago. So this brings
Speaker 1: us to the secret sauce that pinterest is hoping will
Speaker 1: turn the dynamics of the digital advertising market in their favor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: until now, tech companies have scrambled to take their credit
Speaker 1: for something the industry calls attribution, and that basically means
Speaker 1: that if you end up buying a handbag on Amazon,
Speaker 1: Facebook wants to be able to say that you made
Speaker 1: the purchase because of an ad that they showed you.
Speaker 1: But pinterest says they're playing for a whole new part
Speaker 1: of the online advertising market. They want brands to know
Speaker 1: that without pinterras, you wouldn't even know their brand exists.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't even know you had an opinion on it.
Speaker 1: So I think what we've proven to advertisers is that
Speaker 1: people see an idea that could be their product as
Speaker 1: an advertisement, and that first impression right of seeing that
Speaker 1: handbag that you've you've never seen in your life, and
Speaker 1: that experience of going from I don't know what I
Speaker 1: want to wow, I want the handbag that it never
Speaker 1: occurred to me that I wanted that moment. We have
Speaker 1: begun to prove to advertisers that that's probably the most
Speaker 1: valuable and important moment in generating demand. Okay, So pinterest
Speaker 1: has these big challenges and I p O isn't really imminent,
Speaker 1: and on top of all that, it's not this buzzy
Speaker 1: company that it once was. So I'm wondering is it
Speaker 1: getting harder for pinterest hire good engineers. It's actually super
Speaker 1: competitive to be hired there. And that might go back
Speaker 1: to the being nice thing. When I asked Evan about it,
Speaker 1: he said, anyone with a sort of rash personality gets
Speaker 1: quote organ rejected from the organization. I mean, I would say,
Speaker 1: we're not very extroverted, all right, We're not out there
Speaker 1: talking all the time, and I think we don't want
Speaker 1: to be famous or anything like that, and so it's
Speaker 1: a different kind of leader. How does that benefit even
Speaker 1: how's that hurt you? I'm probably not the best person
Speaker 1: to ask, you know. Um, I mean, there's definitely a
Speaker 1: superpower make yourself into a name. It's easier to get covered,
Speaker 1: it's easier to people have an attraction to celebrity there there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think sometimes you have stories we want
Speaker 1: to tell. But other than that, it's just not something
Speaker 1: this top of mind. It's not that it's bad or good.
Speaker 1: And the fact that pinterest has kept this low profile
Speaker 1: in the press hasn't bothered Jeremy, the board member and
Speaker 1: investor we heard from earlier. He thinks it's actually been
Speaker 1: an asset. It's run by a humble team that's kept
Speaker 1: its heads collective heads down, UM and focus on just
Speaker 1: building a great service and not getting wrapped up in
Speaker 1: what may be hot or exciting and in the headlines
Speaker 1: within the general tech press or the Silicon Valley. UM.
Speaker 1: That's allow of them to just keep plugging away. Startups
Speaker 1: reflect their founders, right. Whoever works there would need to
Speaker 1: be really excited about working with a guy like Ben.
Speaker 1: He's a bit soft spoken, but here he is describing
Speaker 1: his ambition for the company. I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I really love, ah, the promise of our product. I
Speaker 1: really love the idea that there's a place that you
Speaker 1: can go that is constantly kind of inspiring you to
Speaker 1: try new things, and it's giving you all the knowledge
Speaker 1: and information to actually make those real. So I really
Speaker 1: love that idea. There's nothing like that right now. I
Speaker 1: just really want us to make that reel in the world.
Speaker 1: And a very easy way to motivate yourself is that
Speaker 1: we don't come copletely fulfill that promise UM for so
Speaker 1: many people in the gap between filling that promise and
Speaker 1: where we are today, Like that's the work we have
Speaker 1: to do, UM. But I think it would be great,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that, you know, we all grow
Speaker 1: up with these online services that really resonate with them.
Speaker 1: Mean I mentioned, you know, I can't really imagine I
Speaker 1: can't really imagine my life without Google actually specifically without
Speaker 1: Google Maps, or you know, I can't really imagine our
Speaker 1: life without like a self like a smartphone. And I
Speaker 1: hope that interest with somebody be so useful to people.
Speaker 1: They could so reliably get inspiring ideas that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: be able to imagine how they just used to kind
Speaker 1: of go through life and like find inspiration for things. Normally,
Speaker 1: hearing an executive say something like that, you know, a
Speaker 1: goal to conquer the world with an idea, it can
Speaker 1: get pretty annoying because we've heard it so many times before.
Speaker 1: When Ben says this, it sounds interesting because really he's
Speaker 1: so rarely talks with the public. And you know, another
Speaker 1: part of being a quiet company, I also cover Twitter,
Speaker 1: the public isn't as laser focus on critiquing what you're
Speaker 1: doing all the time. You can work in peace at Twitter.
Speaker 1: Every time they change a design there's a used ruvolt.
Speaker 1: So those are benefits like employees getting along and they
Speaker 1: can work in peace. And we've heard the drawbacks, that
Speaker 1: growth can be slower than expected, that people can start
Speaker 1: to doubt the promise of pinterest, or even worse, that
Speaker 1: they can stop caring. But ben in Evan, it sounds
Speaker 1: like they at least feel like they're moving pretty fast,
Speaker 1: and they're excited about the future, and they're making some
Speaker 1: really big bets. In the meantime, the rest of Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley is going to continue to be impatient. And that's
Speaker 1: it for this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Do you use Pinterests, do you think it has a
Speaker 1: future or do you see Instagram or Google winning this battle?
Speaker 1: Email us at decrypted at Bloomberg dot net, or you
Speaker 1: can write to me on Twitter. I'm at Sarah Fryer
Speaker 1: and I met Akio seven. You can subscribe to decrypt
Speaker 1: It on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts and
Speaker 1: leave us a rating and review. This helps us make
Speaker 1: our show better and it also gets our podcasts in
Speaker 1: front of more listeners. And one last thing before we
Speaker 1: let you go today, Starting now, you can use Bloomberg's
Speaker 1: Io s app or our new Google Chrome extension to
Speaker 1: scan any news story on any website and instantly show
Speaker 1: your relevant news and market data related to the companies
Speaker 1: and the people you're reading about. It's a pretty cool feature.
Speaker 1: Check it out by downloading our io s app or
Speaker 1: search for the Bloomberg extension on the Chrome Store. Learn
Speaker 1: more at bloomberg dot com slash lens. This episode was
Speaker 1: produced by p A Gig Cary Magnus Hendrickson, Endless Smith.
Speaker 1: Alec McCabe is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next week, yeah h