WEBVTT - Pinterest's Second Act 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.520 Here in Silicon Valley, there's been this entrenched myth for 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.240 decades around the kind of person you need to be 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.400 to be a successful entrepreneur, that to take a startup 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.840 from scratch and turn it into a multibillion dollar business 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.360 that changes the world, you have to be brash and 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:26.239 loud and brutal dictatorial, even to be the alpha male 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.520 in the room. Think about all the things written about 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.960 the late Apple founder of Steve Jobs, or Amazon founder 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.639 Jeff Bezos, or Uber CEO Travis Clanic, who at least 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.879 until recently, seemed to revel in his public persona as 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:45.839 a controversial, cutthroat leader. And in this industry that celebrates 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.080 men like this, there's a pair of co founders who 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:54.000 have faded into the background. They're quiet and polite and understated. 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.080 They don't seek the limelight in the eyes of his 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.120 journalists who graved drama. You could even say that they're 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.080 a little bit boring. Meet Pinterest co founders Evan Sharp 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:09.280 and Ben Silberman. Ben and I better low tolerance for 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.360 for ego, a little tolerance for people who are assles, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:14.720 and um, you know, we prefer to build a great, 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.880 ambitious business for people through each other at dignity by default, 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.119 so that's something that's a little bit unique. Surprisingly, maybe 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.360 that's what what has been perceived as, like, Oh, you know, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.479 the pinterest founder is a very slow and study. Maybe 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:31.399 it's just that you guys aren't assholes. There was a 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.240 time when pinterest was one of the buzziest startups in 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:40.319 Silicon Valley. Investors valued the company at eleven billion dollars, 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.200 But recently people don't really talk much about Pinterest. I've 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.160 been asking venture capitalists what they think of the company. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.040 Their answer most of the time is that they don't 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.120 think about pinterests much at all. But in the background, 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.600 away from the spotlight, pinterest says it's been quietly insteadily 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.800 building out its business all along. Its founders Ben and Evan, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.000 as well as president Tim Kendall, spoke to us in 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:21.280 a very rare interview. Hi, I'm Akiito and I'm Fara Fryar, 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.760 and this weekend Decrypted, we'll be taking you inside a 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:29.200 company that you might have forgotten about. Despite the company's 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.480 low profile these days, it's actually still the most valuable 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.520 startup in the world, according to a list kept by 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.760 the research company CB Insights. While we were busy analyzing 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.320 this and that melodrama erupting at our favorite startups. Pinterest 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.720 has been at work preparing for its second act. Can 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.919 thinterest capture our attention again? Or like so many other 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.320 startups in this business that burst onto the scene only 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.320 to be overshadowed by the next new thing, will they 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:08.280 just fade out of you? So we shared tips on 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.000 going to the flower Mark which is just across the street, 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:16.720 which is wonderful. Nice animal welfare aspects of keeping a 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.680 chicken in your backyard? Is that most of the chickens okay? 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.160 So Sarah tell us what we're listening to here. A 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.959 couple of weeks ago, I was invited into an internal 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.600 company in conference at pinterest called nit Con. It was 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.200 the most pinteresting thing ever. What were they doing like 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.160 all the cool d I y stuff you can view 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.400 on the app. Their own employees were doing demos for 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:45.600 each other and ads engineering exact demo beer brewing. Another 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:50.400 engineer was demoing latte art i ate some carbonated grapes. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.520 Did that taste good? Oh my god, it was. They 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.000 were very strange and it sounds like a lot of fun. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.640 Everyone was so nice. I've had a great time and 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.920 this was a company wide thing. Yeah, even in the 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.320 international offices. It sounds like kind of a silly thing 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.680 for an entire company to commit to. But I guess 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.400 if they invited you to attend this thing in the 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.360 first place, they must have cared about it too. Yeah, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.719 I mean it is. It is very important. Business is 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.200 basically about inspiration. You go there to find images of 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.280 things you want to do, places you want to see, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.880 food you want to make, you collect them, and if 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.279 you show an interest in certain things interests, well, you know, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.240 the algorithm will show you more things like that. Like 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.880 the employee who was making carbonated grapes. He was actually 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.880 really all into the crazy things you could do with 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.960 whipping cancers, like instantly infused tequila or make nice fluffy, 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.480 microwavable cake batter in addition to the public rape and Sarah, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.400 I can't say I've ever really used pinterest myself. I 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.560 don't think I really get it. But you said you 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.719 use it pretty regularly. Yeah. I basically only use it 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.839 on the private secret setting to plan a wet and 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.560 it's really the only place you can easily compare image 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.960 inspiration of things like dresses, Bouquet's color combinations, at least 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.919 for now. Today's Pinterest has one hundred seventy five million 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:17.760 monthly active users. That's decent, but not tons. Snapchat, which 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.120 is a much younger company, has about that many daily 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:26.120 active users. Twitter has over three hundred million monthly, Instagram 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:31.799 six hundred million, Facebook almost two billion. Yeah, at seven 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.279 years old, it's not growing quite as fast as some 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.680 of the others, and the company is relying on word 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.760 of mouth to win more users. The way Exact tell it, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.360 pinterest biggest problem is that people like you can't think 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.240 of a reason you'd want to use it because they think, 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.479 why do I need another social network? But here's Pinterest. 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.720 Co founder Evan I would say emphatically, Pinterest is not 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.720 a social network. And I and when I say that, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.640 because here you don't come to Pinterest to share pints. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.400 Is not about expressing yourself to others. It's out about 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.120 sharing with friends. Pinterest is much more like a search 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.640 engine than it is a social network. People who come 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:12.839 to Pinterest thinking it's like Facebook or Instagram, they don't 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.359 have a great experience because they upload a photo and 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.159 then they're expecting to get feedback. But that's not what 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.600 Pinterest is for. And so that misconception can also make 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.400 it more difficult for some people to understand what pinterest 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.159 is and how it can be useful for them. And 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.159 in this environment where people don't quite get Pinterest, here's 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.720 the biggest threat to the company that an app that 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.160 you already use will start offering you the same features 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.600 as Pinterest, so you'll never end up having to use 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:45.560 it at all. Here's CEO and co founder Ben I mean, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:52.159 as a smaller company relative to the tech giants at Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Um, 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.680 it's not negotiable that we have to move really really quickly. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:01.200 Otherwise what happens, well, otherwise, like you get you get eliminated, right, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:06.039 I mean, that's just the story of technology. Are are 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.320 companies just like eliminating other companies. There's one search engine, 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.880 there's one dominant social network, there's one dominant e commerce player, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:16.640 And so if you're going to carve out of space, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:18.559 you have to be you have to move really quickly 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.760 to own that space. How confident are you that you 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.440 own it? I think we're off to a good start, 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:27.960 but we have a lot of work to do. It 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.680 seems like every day there's another Pinterest like thing that 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:38.280 gets built into Instagram or Google or Amazon. For Pinterest, 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.040 this threat of these larger companies taking over their features 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.720 is very real. Just last week, Google announced that you'll 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.480 be able to shop via image search for example. Instagram 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.560 this week announced that you can start to collect inspirational photos. 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:57.040 But given how competitive this space is, it doesn't seem 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.400 like Ben and Evan have been really aggressive in the field. 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.600 They appeared on the cover of Forbes with the caption 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.160 move over Zuck. Pinterest has a revenue model that puts 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.840 Facebook and Twitter to shame. That might have been too 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:16.920 optimistic in hindsight. Well, talking with Tim Kendall, the company's president, 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.040 it's clear that there's still a big gap between Pinterest 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:27.800 and the tech companies that it's sometimes compared with accelerating. Um, 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.240 it's quite very fast. Is it great faster than they 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.760 did last year? Um, it's hard from It depends on 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.200 what you depends on what you measure, like how you 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.280 measure it, Like, I don't want to say something it's 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.560 like factually inaccurate. We're really pleased with the trajectory UM 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.920 and my standards for trajectory a very high because I've 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.199 seen big trajectories up up close and it's a it's 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.480 a really good trajectory. So it sounds like not the 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.720 kind of explicit growth that we've become so accustomed to 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.400 in the valley. Well, more slow and study testing new 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.360 ad features with small groups of advertisers and then broadening 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:11.160 to larger groups. So how how big could pinterest be 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.679 in in five years? Oh? I I think it could 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.720 be um in terms of revenue, you know, billions and billions, 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:22.520 you know, I think it could be a huge company. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.720 I mean, if you think about again, if we are 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.720 the place that you go on your phone to figure 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.280 out what you're going to do with your life, from 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.040 the small to the big, from the near term to 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:38.320 the long term, like we become this this planning capability 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:44.840 that just be almost essential to people in the same 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.000 way that that Google became essential to people when they 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:54.520 knew what they were looking for. Sources tell me pinterest 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.080 is aiming to make more than five million dollars in 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.880 revenue this year, so that's still a long way to 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.360 go before billions. It's seen it's been hard for them 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.240 to grow internationally, in part because it's a product that's 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.800 so varied and culturally specific to users around the world. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:15.600 Not everyone is interested in Easter egg decorating ideas for example. Right, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.960 But finally, pinterest has more users outside the US than inside. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.440 In Kendall, the company's president told me they're only just 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.640 getting started when it comes to making money from those 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.280 guys and building out that revenue stream could could be slow. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.160 And is pinterest doing okay financially well? The company sets 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.000 some very aggressive targets for itself and then didn't reach them, 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.000 according to report in tech Crunch. But they're doing just fine. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.560 The last rays of three sixty seven million was in 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.960 and then there's actual revenue coming in funding this expansion 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.040 around the world. Still, like a lot of Silicon Valley startups, 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.680 pinterest isn't making a profit an you have plenty of 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.240 money from the last SEMy rays. Still you are you? 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:06.240 You guys are profitable. We're not profitable, right, But if 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.600 you were profitable, that would mean you weren't spending on growth. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.880 The revenue that comes in gets put into I mean, 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.440 we re invested in the business. Maybe that explains why 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.920 I've been hearing about this company's eventual I p O 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.720 since Yeah, it feels like Snapchat, on the other hand, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.559 went from rumors to i p O fairly quickly. For 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.240 a company to make its case convincingly to Wall Street 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.839 and other investors, it needs to be able to show 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.080 that it can make money reliably, and that if it's 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.640 not already profitable, there's a clear strategy for getting there. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.640 Wall Street investors want explosive growth when they invest into 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.320 slok On Valley Company. This is what Tim told me 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.800 when I asked him about it. So you said, you're 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.960 you're not really thinking about or you're not discussing I 0:11:55.080 --> 0:12:02.760 p O internally currently plants any plants we're discussing it? Um? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:10.360 Are we discussing it internally? I don't know how to comment. Um, 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.680 But what do you think is the time frame that 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.440 makes sense for today? I mean, we don't. We really 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:21.200 don't have plans. Yeah, yeah, so there's not we don't 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.280 have plan, so there isn't a timeframe. But you don't 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.240 want to be acquired by like Google or something. I 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.240 think Ben has been really clear that we want to 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.480 be a standalone, independent company, and and that's definitely that's 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.640 why I'm here. You don't need the money right now, No, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.600 I mean the businesses the business is on a great 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:44.719 trajectory um and and I think that we're I think 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.960 we've grown in a really smart way that's put the 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.760 position to put the company position where we have lots 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:55.560 of degrees of freedom, um, such that we're not going 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:57.520 to be in a position where we'll be forced to 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.960 do something that isn't in the best interest of building 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.480 sustainable kind of independent company. Okay, So reading between the 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.120 lines here, it does sound like they're inching a little 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.720 bit closer, but that they have a lot more that 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.000 they have to prove first. Yeah, especially if they're hoping 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.880 for their company to be valued highly. When they last 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.600 raised money, the company is worth eleven billion on paper, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.440 but people told me that pinterest would be unlikely to 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.920 fetch those kinds of numbers. Right now, pinterest still has 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:33.360 a bit to prove. Talking to the founders, it sounds 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.360 like they think the path to new users and eventually 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.160 revenue growth is improving the product. And the interesting thing 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.679 about pinterest is somehow they've ended up in a lot 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:49.440 of Silicon valleys buzziest investment areas, artificial intelligence, computer vision. 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.720 It's something that pinterest board member Jeremy Levine is really 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.320 excited about. Jeremy is a partner at the venture capital 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.040 for Embesssamer Venture Partners, which is one of interest biggest investors. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.560 The company continues to innovate in a really compelling way, 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.720 and so in its early days, um it was sort 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.880 of a leader in visual discovery and sort of the 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.040 great format that has not been copied many times over 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.720 by other services on the internet. But even you know, 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.600 very recently they launched this unbelievably cool search feature UM. 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:22.280 I used it all the time on my phone and 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.000 it allows you to take a picture of a physical 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.920 object and use that as a launching pad for search UM. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:34.440 And it's sort of an amazing integration of machine vision technology. Well, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.680 Pinterest has these a hundred seventy five million monthly active 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.200 users actually labeling images as part of the way they 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.040 use the platform, and so it opens up some great 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:48.720 technical opportunities that other companies might not have access to. 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.320 Here's Evan, the co founder, talking about how it works. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.360 You know what I would say about computer vision is 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.400 you need two things. You need more rellion, two things 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.640 you need the computer vision algorithms themselves. Right, So what 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.480 enables your your phone to say taking and take an 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.720 image and say here are the five things in that image? 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.080 And then you need the catalog, right, the data to 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.120 match results back to that image. And that's what we 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.920 have that's distinctive. You know, five ten years from now, 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:21.000 the algorithms for computer vision will be relatively commodified. But 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.480 won't won't be is that is the catalog itself and 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.720 the data we have. And so by really focusing on 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.920 enriching that catalog and making it really actionable and leveraging 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.640 all of our curation data, right, people are saving hundreds 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.040 of millions of things all the time. Actually, here's a 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.880 way of saying it, right. You could you could say 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.560 that we have a computer vision team of four or 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.120 five people if you look at the engineers, or you 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:45.040 could say that we have a computer vision team of 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.680 hundred and seventy five million plus people because all the 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.680 people on Pinterests are out there saving things supports there's 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.120 definitely a chicken and egg with the catalog. We call 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.880 it the catalog and the user base. But the good 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.000 thing is that a lot of Pinterests is people saving 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.360 ideas from around the up to their boards, to their collections. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.240 And so as we start to grow internationally or catalog 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.200 grows along with it. So what do you make of 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.880 Pinterest envisioning itself as basically the Google for images is 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.400 do you think this is an achievable target? Well, I 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.000 guess they would say more the Google for ideas Pinterest. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.720 Whole argument seems to be that you search for facts 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.000 on Google like what temperature do you need the oven 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.120 to be at? Hooked chicken? You search for ideas on 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.000 Pinterest like how should I season or prepare the chicken? 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.320 And now with the AI, it's like I took a 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.920 picture of this chicken dish? What is it? And is 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.880 there a recipe? And Pinterest will show you dishes that 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.800 look like it and other things you may not even 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.640 have thought of. That sounds pretty amazing. Do they actually 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.600 have the technology to do it? I tried it with kale. 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.920 It's actually pretty impressive, But you need to get people 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.960 to use it, and that's a different challenge. You know. 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.200 That's especially making to me given how small pinterest engineering 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.040 team is. We just heard Evans say that there's only 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:11.840 four or five engineers in his computer vision team. Facebook, Amazon, Google, 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.160 They must have hundreds of engineers working on these problems 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.680 and they're going all in on AI two. Well, those companies, 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.120 though larger, aren't used the way Pinterest is, So they 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:28.480 don't have this database of people's aspirations. What do you mean? 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.680 Like these guys are saying you go to Pinterest to 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.080 decide what you want to do or buy, or see 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.520 or experience. So it's tied to activities like travel, remodeling, 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.000 cooking babies, whereas on Facebook you might talk about what 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.639 you've done already. So really it's an advertiser's dream. Here's 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:51.840 Tim again. We're the first company that's taken that commercial 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.399 discovery experience and put it on the phone in a 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.080 way where people get lots of utility because they actually 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.200 are able to plan their lives in a way. It's 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.600 great for them and completely aligned with what businesses and 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.639 advertisers want to do, which is that they want to 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.160 connect with the right people who are interested in their 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:16.800 products or services. So you know, I joined because I 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.080 think it's the most interesting business to be built since 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:27.760 gool Will built AdWords sixteen years ago. So this brings 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.440 us to the secret sauce that pinterest is hoping will 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:35.440 turn the dynamics of the digital advertising market in their favor. Yeah, 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.800 until now, tech companies have scrambled to take their credit 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:43.639 for something the industry calls attribution, and that basically means 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.280 that if you end up buying a handbag on Amazon, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.240 Facebook wants to be able to say that you made 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.040 the purchase because of an ad that they showed you. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.600 But pinterest says they're playing for a whole new part 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.840 of the online advertising market. They want brands to know 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.639 that without pinterras, you wouldn't even know their brand exists. 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.840 You wouldn't even know you had an opinion on it. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.800 So I think what we've proven to advertisers is that 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.399 people see an idea that could be their product as 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:20.320 an advertisement, and that first impression right of seeing that 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.760 handbag that you've you've never seen in your life, and 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.240 that experience of going from I don't know what I 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.680 want to wow, I want the handbag that it never 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.159 occurred to me that I wanted that moment. We have 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.240 begun to prove to advertisers that that's probably the most 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:47.600 valuable and important moment in generating demand. Okay, So pinterest 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.680 has these big challenges and I p O isn't really imminent, 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.959 and on top of all that, it's not this buzzy 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.080 company that it once was. So I'm wondering is it 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.760 getting harder for pinterest hire good engineers. It's actually super 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.440 competitive to be hired there. And that might go back 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.800 to the being nice thing. When I asked Evan about it, 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.200 he said, anyone with a sort of rash personality gets 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.600 quote organ rejected from the organization. I mean, I would say, 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:19.600 we're not very extroverted, all right, We're not out there 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.600 talking all the time, and I think we don't want 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.200 to be famous or anything like that, and so it's 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.080 a different kind of leader. How does that benefit even 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.720 how's that hurt you? I'm probably not the best person 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.520 to ask, you know. Um, I mean, there's definitely a 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.600 superpower make yourself into a name. It's easier to get covered, 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.360 it's easier to people have an attraction to celebrity there there. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:41.880 I mean, I think sometimes you have stories we want 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.960 to tell. But other than that, it's just not something 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.160 this top of mind. It's not that it's bad or good. 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.680 And the fact that pinterest has kept this low profile 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.800 in the press hasn't bothered Jeremy, the board member and 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.720 investor we heard from earlier. He thinks it's actually been 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.280 an asset. It's run by a humble team that's kept 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.560 its heads collective heads down, UM and focus on just 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.320 building a great service and not getting wrapped up in 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.879 what may be hot or exciting and in the headlines 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.080 within the general tech press or the Silicon Valley. UM. 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.880 That's allow of them to just keep plugging away. Startups 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.520 reflect their founders, right. Whoever works there would need to 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.639 be really excited about working with a guy like Ben. 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.600 He's a bit soft spoken, but here he is describing 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.520 his ambition for the company. I don't know. I mean, 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:37.320 I really love, ah, the promise of our product. I 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.359 really love the idea that there's a place that you 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:44.240 can go that is constantly kind of inspiring you to 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.520 try new things, and it's giving you all the knowledge 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.760 and information to actually make those real. So I really 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:53.159 love that idea. There's nothing like that right now. I 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.760 just really want us to make that reel in the world. 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.679 And a very easy way to motivate yourself is that 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:03.359 we don't come copletely fulfill that promise UM for so 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.639 many people in the gap between filling that promise and 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:09.280 where we are today, Like that's the work we have 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.920 to do, UM. But I think it would be great, 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.600 you know, I think that, you know, we all grow 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.080 up with these online services that really resonate with them. 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.600 Mean I mentioned, you know, I can't really imagine I 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.120 can't really imagine my life without Google actually specifically without 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.800 Google Maps, or you know, I can't really imagine our 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.399 life without like a self like a smartphone. And I 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.840 hope that interest with somebody be so useful to people. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.639 They could so reliably get inspiring ideas that they wouldn't 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:38.960 be able to imagine how they just used to kind 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:47.760 of go through life and like find inspiration for things. Normally, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.040 hearing an executive say something like that, you know, a 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.800 goal to conquer the world with an idea, it can 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:58.119 get pretty annoying because we've heard it so many times before. 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.359 When Ben says this, it sounds interesting because really he's 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.800 so rarely talks with the public. And you know, another 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.600 part of being a quiet company, I also cover Twitter, 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.840 the public isn't as laser focus on critiquing what you're 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.399 doing all the time. You can work in peace at Twitter. 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:19.840 Every time they change a design there's a used ruvolt. 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.479 So those are benefits like employees getting along and they 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.600 can work in peace. And we've heard the drawbacks, that 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.240 growth can be slower than expected, that people can start 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.640 to doubt the promise of pinterest, or even worse, that 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:36.520 they can stop caring. But ben in Evan, it sounds 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.359 like they at least feel like they're moving pretty fast, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.800 and they're excited about the future, and they're making some 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.360 really big bets. In the meantime, the rest of Silicon 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:57.120 Valley is going to continue to be impatient. And that's 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.959 it for this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:02.480 Do you use Pinterests, do you think it has a 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.919 future or do you see Instagram or Google winning this battle? 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.800 Email us at decrypted at Bloomberg dot net, or you 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.280 can write to me on Twitter. I'm at Sarah Fryer 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:16.600 and I met Akio seven. You can subscribe to decrypt 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:19.480 It on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts and 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.040 leave us a rating and review. This helps us make 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.600