1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Body bats. But Joseph's gotten more over the course of 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: my adult life. Like many of you, I'm sure i've been, 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: I've found myself in the position of having to rent, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: and the rentals that I have had, it's always a 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: mixed bag. You never know what you're going to get, 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: you know, and it's amazing how they can kind of 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: polish things up to kind of draw you in, lure 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: you in if you will. Now, I was never one 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: of these that was in some kind of huge apartment complex, 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, like they have today. I kind of stuck 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: with renting even a space and otherwise occupied home. I've 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: had basement apartments, I've rented entire homes in New Orleans 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: in particular, I would have an affinity for shotguns. Shotgun 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: doubles is what they were called, you know everything As 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: they say, you could fire a shotgun through the front 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: door and you'd never hit a wall because you'd go 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: out the back door. But I always liked those homes 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: and I like the history of them. But there are 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: certain structures out there, I think, and locations that develop 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: a history along the way. I've always stated as a 21 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: death investigator that I truly believe that places many times 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: are haunted, and they're not necessarily haunted by ghost but 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: by memories and the horror potentially of what happened. Today, 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about one such case that has 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: come to my attention that is absolutely horrific and has 26 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: been described that way by a prosecutor. Today, we're going 27 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: to talk about a little boy named Zamar King who 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: was left in a shallow gray in the backyard of 29 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: a rental home by his mother. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 30 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: and this is body Bags. David. Got to tell you something. 31 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: You know who the you know what the coolest place 32 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: was that I ever rented? I got it. You're not 33 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: gonna I bet you you would never guess this about me, 34 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: because it just it was kind of like lightning, that 35 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: kind of struck. Do you remember when we were kids 36 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: and one of the coolest movies that came out in 37 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: the early seventies was The Original Planet of the Apes 38 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Charlton Heston and crash Lands back on Earth in the future, 39 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: and you know, it had like Roddy McDowell in it, 40 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: and you know, whole cast of characters. Dude, I rented 41 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: a basement apartment, which, by the way, is dangerous in 42 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: New Orleans because everything floods. And that did happen to me. 43 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: By the way, I rented a basement apartment from an 44 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: old retired guy who was actually a marine that had 45 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: fought at Iwo Jima. Wow. And he was the chief 46 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: makeup artist for the Planet of the Apes. 47 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 48 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: And I had no idea in renting an apartment. Now 49 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: it was no he purchased his place. And he was 50 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: not from New Orleans, Oh wow, Yeah he was. He 51 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: was from Cali. He had born and raised in Cali 52 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: and wound up like many people do, falling in love 53 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: with falling in love with New Orleans, you know, on 54 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: one of these visits, and it was it was quite amazing, 55 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, just to get to know him and learn 56 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,279 Speaker 1: about old Hollywood because he he started working in Hollywood 57 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: right after he got out of the Marine Corps in 58 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: War two, so he was in that the studio you know, 59 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: the studio era of time, the studio system. Yeah, and 60 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: so it was pretty fascinating. And it was he was 61 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: a cool landlord. I mean, it was, it was awesome. 62 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: But this landlord in this story is it's a shocking 63 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: way that he tells this imagine, Joe, you're renting a property, 64 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: the former tenant is gone, and you've had to go 65 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: in and stage the property make it look better. Oftentimes 66 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: they'll even bring in furniture and things like that, so 67 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: the individual looking at the rentel it can get an 68 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: idea of what it could look like with stuff in it. 69 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: And it's while he's preparing to stage the house the 70 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: apartment that he sees in the backyard something odd. And 71 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 2: I cannot imagine what your first thought would be. But 72 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: if I saw something that looked like a small foot 73 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: sticking out of the dirt, I would think baby doll. 74 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: I would think somebody had a Halloween joke. You know, 75 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: That's where my mind would go. It would not go 76 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 2: to human being, to child. That would not be part 77 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: of it. And I thought, I can't wait to ask Joe. 78 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: This would a foot, a human foot sticking up out 79 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: of the ground look different than a fake foot, a 80 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: plastic foot, because a plastic foot made for a dollar 81 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: a mannequin would not change based on time or anything else. 82 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: It's just going to be sticking up out of the 83 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: dirt like a toy. But a human foot would have 84 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: suffered even for a very limited amount of time, some 85 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: type of decomposition. Oh yeah, would it be obvious to 86 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 2: the regular person? 87 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: You know? I think And this goes back to a 88 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: conversation that you and I'm a friend have had many 89 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: times relative to doing the double take, where your brain 90 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: is trying to say that this is something other than 91 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: maybe what my eyes are telling, right, And with decomposition, 92 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like it's kind of like one 93 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: of those puzzles or one of those images that you 94 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: try to stare at for a particular period of time 95 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: to try to pick out what's real, what's a true feature. 96 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: And because of a normal biological process such as decomposition, 97 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: you might look on the ground and think that it's 98 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: debris laying there like a piece of wood, because it's 99 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: going to have Unlike say, for instance, and this is 100 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: a great point where you talked about a baby doll 101 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: or a mannequin. Those things are manufactured basically plastic and 102 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: their form stays the same other than weathering over a 103 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: long period of time. But with a foot human foot, 104 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: if you were to see it month after month, it 105 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: is going to change in appearance and it will be 106 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: so modeled in the in in this environment, and also 107 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: with turn to Earth, which my assumption is is that 108 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: there was turned to earth here. You know, our tissues 109 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: blacken over a period of time as well, they will 110 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: go dark if not properly preserved, and so you'll have this, 111 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: you'll have this scene that kind of blends into the 112 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: natural environment. So my suspicion is is that the finder 113 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: in this case, And of course we always talk about 114 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: the finder, don't we. We talked about how important they are 115 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: because they're the first eyes on the finder in this 116 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: in this particular case, look down and I'm sure that 117 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: within their brain they're thinking, okay, what what precisely is this? 118 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: And they're drawn in and suddenly they begin to move 119 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: toward that location upon closer examination, and all of a 120 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: sudden details begin to pop out. And the foot in 121 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: and of itself is highly complex as far as an 122 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: anatomical structure. You know, each toe, each toe, nail, by 123 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: the way, each digit of the foot has got a 124 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: specific characteristic to it in size, structure, in the composition. 125 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: And so when you begin, and I can only imagine, 126 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: you begin to make out those details, particularly of the 127 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: tips of each toe. And if everybody will just think 128 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: about how your toes are kind of graduated in size, 129 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: going from the big toe to the h to the 130 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: one that goes we we we all the way home. 131 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, you're looking at these and they're going to 132 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: cease to blend. Now you're starting to see an outline. 133 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: And I've had this. I've had this happen Dave on 134 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: scenes where I've had people that are literally melted into 135 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: the environment. Okay, with decomposition and even with significant lighting 136 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: that is out there, strong lighting. I've had to stare 137 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time so that I could 138 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of outline things, you know, where I could try 139 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: to understand where the outer perimeter is of you know, 140 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: the final resting spot. And we're not even talking and 141 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: this is kind of fascinating about this case. We're not 142 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: even talking about animal activity, you know, where when we 143 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: get into this phase where elements of the body have 144 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: been taken away, that's that's not what we're looking at here. 145 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: This foot is actually intact. The fact that the foot 146 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: is intact and that it is appreciable and that, as 147 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: you mentioned, sticking up out of the earth is a 148 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: huge benefit for crime scene investigators and for me, investigators 149 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: that go out there because the key, the watchword here 150 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: is containment. Containment because you know therein as we've talked 151 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: about with human remains, human remains are the primary piece 152 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: of evidence that you have at any scene. Okay, these 153 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: remain stay are not scattered to the wind, so you 154 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: have them buried in one particular spot, and if there's 155 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: no other defect in the earth where you've got other 156 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: elements of the body sticking up, or where you have 157 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: indication of maybe burrowing animals, that sort of thing. As 158 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: far as this is, this is a gold mine for 159 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: anybody working in forensics because you've got containment here. 160 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: You know, Joe, when I'm looking over the story and 161 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: heire's actually dug a shallow grave in the backyard. And 162 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, whenever we see something like this usually it's 163 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: it's the end result of something that went too far. 164 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: A mother father disciplining a child and taking it a 165 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: step too far, causing their death, and then a panic 166 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 2: sets in to to get rid of the body to 167 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: you know, that's where we end up searching in trash, 168 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 2: you know, yards and things like that. In this case, 169 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: she's in a rental home, Joe, and she goes out 170 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: in the backyard and digs a shallow grave to place 171 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: her nine year old son. But then after doing that, 172 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: she leaves. Now you have pointed out on many occasions 173 00:11:52,760 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: that oftentimes the suspect will will take the the victim 174 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: and get rid of them close to home. And I 175 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: always thought that was so they could kind of lord 176 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: over the body, they could protect the body, and in 177 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: this and that way. Hey, if anybody comes looking, I 178 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: can misdirect them someplace else, I can protect what I've done, 179 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: nobody can find. 180 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: But she didn't do that. 181 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: She buries him in a shallow grave and then bolts, 182 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: doesn't pay rent, and leaves, and there's nobody there to 183 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: prevent the landlord from coming. As a matter of fact, 184 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: he has to come and stage the house, he has 185 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: to go through the front yard, in the backyard, he 186 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: has to inspect everything. So I guess in my head, 187 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 2: I'm thinking she did. Now there's the reason why they 188 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: very close to home and stay there. 189 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm glad you revisited that because we always, 190 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, I always think about control, control over. You know, 191 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: I actually had a guy that beat his grandmother to death. 192 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, for those that are familiar with Atlanta. 193 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: This was right in the height I think it was 194 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: probably in about ninety eight, maybe it was right in 195 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: the height of what's referred to in Atlanta as Freaknik. 196 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: And this a big spring break, you know, gathering. I 197 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: remember it was hot, and he beat his grandmother to 198 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: death and then takes her and buries her in a 199 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: clay wall beneath the house of where he had beaten 200 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: her to death. And I've you can look at it 201 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: a couple of ways. You can look, well, it's convenient, 202 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: I can do this under the cover of darkness. I 203 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: can just take her from the house and put her 204 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: under the house, and I'm not going to be seen, 205 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, leaving the home with the body in the car, 206 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: so that anybody could question what I'd done. You are 207 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: controlling in that sense. But in this particular case, Dave, 208 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: because and you know you pointed this out to me 209 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: yesterday when we were talking about the case. This is 210 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: a rental. This is a rental. So for me, I 211 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: think I concur with your assessment that this was a 212 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: reactionary event to something that had in fact gone horribly wrong. 213 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: It was and I hate to reduce it down to this. 214 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: This was a matter of convenience for this individual, and 215 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: of course I believe that panic set in and this 216 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: precious little life was taken and they disposed of in 217 00:14:43,400 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: a property that they didn't even own. David, I'd like 218 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: to know a bit more about this, and I'll go 219 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: and say it. This familial dynamic. Lord, we spent a 220 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,239 Speaker 1: lot of time talking about this on bodybacks. 221 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: Uh. 222 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: You know again the old trope about you have to 223 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: look at those that are within the intimate circle. You 224 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: know who who is it that would put their hands 225 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: on in this case, nine year old Zamar King to 226 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: the point where he winds up deceased and buried in 227 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: the backyard of a rental home. What is this familial dynamic? 228 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: Like if you could just come. 229 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: To there actually are a couple of children in the 230 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: home she had. You had nine year old Zamar and 231 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: you have her three year old son that was there 232 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: as well, so you got a six year age difference 233 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: between the two. And by the way, I don't know 234 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: if she has other children. Those are just the two 235 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: that she had in the home in Detroit that we're 236 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: aware of. She ends up leaving the police suggests that 237 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: she kills Zamar sometime in the U in October. They 238 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: don't know exactly the date because she killed him and 239 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: then buried him in the backyard, and being that she 240 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: was the sole custodian of the child, there could be 241 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: days where nobody saw them together or what have you. 242 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: So they're not exactly sure from that standpoint, but they 243 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: do know that she left in a hurry. She didn't 244 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: like have a lease that ran out, and she moved. 245 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: She left in a hurry, didn't tell the landlord, and 246 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: based on what we're seeing timetable wise, I'm guessing when 247 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: she didn't pay the rent for November. You know, the 248 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: landlord comes by, sees that she's gone, and that's when 249 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 2: he starts making plans to rent the place again. Meanwhile, 250 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: she has gone to Georgia with her three year old 251 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: and she's there while police are uncovering in Detroit. You 252 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: know that we've got this nine year old boy who's 253 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: just killed, left behind, where's the mom? And yeah, and 254 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 2: so they end up she's arrested in Georgia, where she 255 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: had moved. I mean she I'm trying to find out 256 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 2: what she was arrested for originally in Georgia, Joe, because 257 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: they had her in custody in Georgia. When police began 258 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: looking for her in Detroit. It was an unrelated charge, 259 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: unrelated to the murderer of the death of Zamar. But 260 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: she was in jail in Georgia. And then as police 261 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: were doing the old biland lookout for her, they had 262 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 2: traced her to Georgia. And again, I don't know how 263 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: all the detectives keep things straight. You know, they really 264 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: are incredible at what they've. 265 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: Got to be. You've got to be a great note 266 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: taker and keep up with your notebook and make sure 267 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: that everything has a time uh annotation on it relative 268 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: because it does get very and particularly when you're talking 269 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: about with multiple jurisdictions involved, because you know that the 270 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: folks down in Georgia uh where she wound up, which 271 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: I think was Brookhaven, if you was taken, those authorities 272 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: there are going to have to communicate with those individuals 273 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: uh in Detroit, where of course Zamar was found uh, 274 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: because they're they're trying to mesh all this together relative 275 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: to a timeline. Now, look, they're going to come, They're 276 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: going to come to us in forensics, and as you 277 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: well know, the biggest question that whether it's the general 278 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: public or police always ask us is not not just 279 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: how did they die, but how long has it been? 280 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: And we can only you know, we can only frame 281 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: these things out to a certain degree where we can say, Okay, 282 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: this is what we believe as far as it now. 283 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: With zamar he's last known or she's last known, the mother, 284 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: Pierce is last known to be present there back in October. Okay, 285 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: well she bolts after that period of time, and Dave. 286 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk about 287 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: this case today. This is a brand new case. This 288 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: is something that popped onto our radar, and again, Pierce 289 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: in this case, I have to make this disclaimer. She's 290 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: merely a suspect and has been charged alleged, and we'll 291 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: get into her charges in a bit. But it was 292 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: so over the top and so very bizarre, you know, 293 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: considering a lot of the stuff that comes across your 294 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: desk in my desk, that I wanted to address it 295 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: and just just to say that she's not you know, 296 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: she's not been convicted in this case, but you know, 297 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: he was found and correct me if I'm wrong. I 298 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: think his remains were actually found January the ninth. If 299 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken up in Detroit or approximates that period 300 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: of time. 301 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: Actually, Joe, the remains of Zamar were found on January sixth, 302 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 2: and to she was arrested in Georgia on January tenth, 303 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: now on January tenth, for the death of Zamar. But 304 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: to be very careful here, she already was in the 305 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: system with police on child abuse charges, alleged child abuse 306 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: of the three year olds. 307 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: Which please, Dave, please tell me that the three year 308 00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: old is a. 309 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: Lot The three year old is alive, Okay, And again 310 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 2: you're mentioning how I knew this story is it is 311 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: very new. We're talking a couple of weeks ago now. 312 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: So to get the timeline is they believe police believe 313 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: that sometime in October Zamar was killed, that he was 314 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: smothered and chocked. We need to get into the autopsy 315 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: in just a minute, but they believe, they investigators believe 316 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 2: he was killed in October and that she fled town 317 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: after the first of November. The landlord, and that's why 318 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: I was looking at the dates, and how long before 319 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: a landlord, you know, starts the process of moving somebody 320 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 2: out that doesn't pay rent, you know, and things like that. 321 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: And so she leaves. His body is buried in a 322 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: shallow grave in the backyard. She's in Georgia and runs 323 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 2: a foul of the law, allegedly for abusing the three 324 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: year old. On January sixth, they find the body of 325 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: Zamar in the backyard. His hands and feet are tied 326 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: by the way, and they then take her into custody 327 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: for that, for the death of Zamar in Georgia. Her 328 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: other child, the three year old, is put into foster 329 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: care in Georgia. And this is all happening just last month, 330 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: so a few weeks ago. And of course they're going 331 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: through the entire process now of putting this case back together. 332 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: But that kind of lines you up there. 333 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: Wow, this takes this to an entirely different kind of 334 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: ghastly level. First off, I think the sweet lord above 335 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: this three year old is still alive, because you know, 336 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: I found Dave in a lot of these cases that 337 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: we cover. God, this sounds horrible and forgive me, but 338 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and say it. I don't care. 339 00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: The first one's hard, but after that, there's an ease 340 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: I think that overcomes the perpetrator. I've done this already, 341 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: I can do it again. It's not a bridge too 342 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: far if you will that the initial event. You know, 343 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: I've lightened my load by abstein myself of this nine 344 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: year old. How much easier now would my life be 345 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: if I didn't have the three year old? And I 346 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: just thank the Good Lord that this child is now 347 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: hopefully safe and is protected and is not, you know, 348 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: within arm's reach of this alleged perpetrator. Because you know, 349 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that a mama could harm her child. 350 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: Let's don't even say harmed, let's say killed, murdered, bury 351 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: a child in the back yard of where that child 352 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: probably played, probably walked over that same earth bolts out 353 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: of town with a three year old, you know, they're 354 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: they're not where else do you have to go? You know, 355 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: I talked about how there's uh. I've said this before, 356 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: but there's uh. You know, there's there's no uh, there's 357 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: no basement in the house of depravity. It just keeps 358 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: going and going and going. Hopefully the future is going 359 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: to break a little bit brighter, perhaps for the three 360 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: year old, but still we have to understand what actually 361 00:24:49,000 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: happened to Zamar Dave. I'm going to say something to 362 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: you right now that I don't know that I've ever 363 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: mentioned to you on on body backs and it it 364 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: actually applies to the title of the show. Did you 365 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: know that in medical legal death investigation that we don't 366 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: simply have one sized body back. Did you know that 367 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: we have children's body bags? Most people don't know that, 368 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: and we will, we do utilize those, and a lot 369 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: of people don't understand that, and it's weird. I wanted 370 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: to kind of paint this picture for you and for 371 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: our friends. I was, you know, in the offices that 372 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: I've worked in, we have what's referred to as you 373 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: have freezers where you store bodies, but you also have 374 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: what are referred to as cool rooms, which are these big, 375 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: big walk in rooms where bodies are literally on the gurney. Okay, 376 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: they're on a tray, uh, but they're not like slid 377 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: into the wall, okay in one of the doors that 378 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: opens up. So when you walk in, you're surrounded by bodies. 379 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got and generally, depending upon the office 380 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: in the manufacturer, you can have white body bags, you 381 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: can have black body bags. I've seen them in blue 382 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: as well. I think I've even seen orange. But you 383 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: walk in and David's always it's always those little tiny 384 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: body bags that you see in that room that you 385 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 1: know you're about to have a really bad day. And 386 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: and when you think about zamar and I have no 387 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: way of knowing if the Detroit Medical Examiner used a 388 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: child body bag. But he's only nine, Dave, he's probably diminutive, 389 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: he's smaller, and we carried these bags, you know, and 390 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: it denotes something that's different. You know, kids are always different. 391 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: I mentioned this over and over multiple interviews I've given 392 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: over the year, over the years. Rather, when you see this, 393 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: it's striking. And then you line all of the bodies 394 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: up in the body bags at the various stations where 395 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: you're about to do the examinations, and it's still it 396 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: stands out. It's like this dark, dark beacon. You know, 397 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: that's flashing because you know what's waiting. And it's one 398 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: thing to unzip a bag that contains the remains of 399 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: an adult. But when you pull down that zipper, and 400 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: that zipper has a very very distinctive sound, It's very 401 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: robust compared to other sounds. The morgue in and of 402 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: itself kind of echoes with sounds. And you open that 403 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: bag and you see some precious little face sticking up. 404 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: And when I think about Zimar and the condition, my friend, 405 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: that he was left in, what type of willpower does 406 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: it take for you to dig not just a grave, 407 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: but a shallow grave, and then to stare down on 408 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: those mortal remains of that precious little child and you 409 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: start pitching dirt in on top of them. To what 410 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: load do you have to sink in order to get 411 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: past that hurdle? You know, people, I think a lot 412 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: of people think that individuals like me, you get numb 413 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: to it. And I've been around dead bodies since I 414 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: was twenty years old. We're talking about an accused who 415 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how many you know, dead bodies Peers 416 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: has been around. I cannot imagine she's been around dead 417 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: bodies of her own offspring. If that gives you, you know, 418 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: you can you even begin to plumb the depths of that, 419 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: you know. So that's one of the things that's really striking, 420 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: you know, about child deaths and about child homicides in particular, 421 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: and the way bodies are treated. 422 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: Dave, you know, the prosecutor in this case, your name 423 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: is Kim Worthy, and she actually talked about it. She 424 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: said that I've been a prosecutor for a long time, 425 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: and I often say that I have seen it. All 426 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: the horrors of this child abuse case defy that the 427 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: alleged actions of this defendant a the most callous I 428 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 2: have seen and hoped never to see again. We've got 429 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 2: the details from Zamar being alleged, no, not allegedly killed. 430 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: He was killed, they believe in October. They believe that 431 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: he was then buried on that property by his mother. 432 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: And the hands and feet are tied, Joe, and I'm 433 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: they're not being specific if his hands and feet were 434 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: tied before he was killed. 435 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: Now, now I read one report where it said they 436 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: thought that they were done post mortal. Okay, and Dave, 437 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: that raises another specter, brother, And here it is how 438 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: long how long had had Zamar been deceased? And just 439 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: go with me here on this line of logic from 440 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: an investigative perspective, If in fact Zamar had been deceased 441 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: for some time, this child may have very well have 442 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: had Roger Mortis setting in. And in order to accommodate 443 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: this horrible task that she decided upon, she had to 444 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: break riger or at least contain the limbs. The limbs 445 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: are very hard to manage. So if she if in fact, 446 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: as has been alleged, she brought about the death of Zamar, 447 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: if he's in a rigid position, you might have to 448 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: break riger and you can't do that. It becomes bodies 449 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: become very stiff. And then in order to guarantee that 450 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: he's going to stay in this kind of contained, easily 451 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: manipulated position. And I'm not talking about some kind of 452 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: psychobabble manipulation that I'm talking about physical manipulation of the body. 453 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: If that's the case, then the hands could in fact 454 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: be bound and the ankles be bound. The one interesting 455 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: thing is is she goes to Trouble allegedly to bind 456 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: the ankles, but yet the foot is sticking up by 457 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: the ground, and so you can kind of go with 458 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: it slide of logic, and you're thinking, what was this 459 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: dynamic that had that had occurred? Because if if I 460 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: am to believe that that report about this may have 461 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: been done post mortem, then why why go to this trouble? 462 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: And there are certain scientific, you know, certain scientific conclusions 463 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: that you begin to to reach relative to this. 464 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: I couldn't figure it out. Joe, I was trying to 465 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: figure out before or after, But how did Zamar die? 466 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 2: How does a nine year old child? And again the 467 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: mother allegedly did this, she's been charged with it, but 468 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: she also has a three year old, And back to 469 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: that timeline. Very quickly after leaving Detroit, after burying her son, 470 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: leave allegedly going to Georgia from Detroit with her three 471 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: year old. Police were called to her on December twentieth, 472 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 2: five days before Christmas, of alleged child abuse of the 473 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: three year old. 474 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: And it was. 475 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: During the time that she was in jail on that 476 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 2: charge that the other charges came through from Detroit and 477 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: things started linking up, you know, from the investigation standpoint 478 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: in Detroit and Georgia and all that. But when I 479 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: was trying to figure out what was taking place in 480 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: that home and thinking, you know, you mentioned, well, you 481 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: know about somebody being able. 482 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: To repeat the work. 483 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: The worst thing you can do is kill somebody, right, 484 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: That's the top of the line. It doesn't get any 485 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: worse than that. So if you at once, I mean, 486 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: I had never thought about that, Joe, I did it 487 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: before I can do it again. Was that what she 488 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 2: was trying to do to the three year old. You know, 489 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: somebody step in. I want to find out more of 490 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: what took place with that child. But anyway, the nine 491 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 2: year old after they get the nine year old out 492 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: of the grave, and I have to wonder. And you 493 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: pointed out earlier that one of the questions we always 494 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: ask is when can you tell me when this child died? 495 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,959 Speaker 2: And I'm you know, I think a lot of times 496 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 2: we wanted to be very specific, you know, what day 497 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: and what time of the day. And you know you've 498 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: cleared that up from me, and I'm thankful that you have, 499 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 2: because I really I was one of the many that 500 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 2: thought that you could do it, like counting the inside 501 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: rings of a tree, you know, that you could get 502 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: me down to lunchtime on the twenty third of November, 503 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: you know, October or whatever. I thought you could. I 504 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: didn't realize how tough it was to determine. I had 505 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: no clue. I really did think it was something you 506 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 2: guys did is no. 507 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: No doos make things. And I've talked about this before, 508 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: as you well know, Uh you've heard me, you know, 509 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: blather on about it. 510 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 2: Uh. 511 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: And it's because it's it's one of those things that 512 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: has to be dispelled because of what we hear in 513 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: in modern media and you know, in television shows and whatnot, 514 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: because people think that we're you know, that we're magical 515 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: elves where we can facilitate these sorts of things, and 516 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: that is just that's not the case where we can 517 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: narrow this down. One of the other issues relative to 518 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: UH to Zamar's death is this, you know, this dynamic 519 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: of decomposition. How does that play into making a terminal diagnosis? 520 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: You know where you're you're actually stating not just the manner. 521 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: I think the manner is pretty obvious. Here we have homicide, uh, 522 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: but how how compromised were the remains, you know, as 523 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: the medical examiner stood over his little body in the 524 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: morgue there. Well, it's it's interesting because they came up 525 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: with a couple of possibilities. Here they're saying smothering, but 526 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: they also talk about net compression. And net compression. You know, 527 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: when you think about something being compressed, okay, that that 528 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: is a force that is being applied to a specific area. 529 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: So when you say net compression, it sounds very generalized 530 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: to me, because if there was say a mechanical assisia 531 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: like you're using a literature, then not why not state that, 532 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: But they saw something in the structures of the neck 533 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: that gave them the impression that force had been applied 534 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: to the neck where perhaps the trachea is compromised, you know, 535 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: and if you feel, if you feel your trachea in 536 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: the center of your neck, it's cartilaginous and you can 537 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: actually fracture cartilage. But that's not firmly stated at this 538 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: point in time because we don't have the autopsy report, 539 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't have it at this point in time. 540 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: But did they see any little fractures in the in 541 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: the cartilage that might marry up with somebody placing a 542 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 1: hand like a c clamp or something like that over 543 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: the trachea. But then they're saying smothering as well, And 544 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering what signs of smothering they saw, because 545 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: smothering is arguably one of the most difficult diagnoses to 546 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: make as far as from a medical legal death perspective, 547 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: because you can use a hand, you can you know, 548 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: the asic idea, you can use a pillow, you know, 549 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: that's that's that's pressing down on the nose in the mouth. 550 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: But here's here's something that I've also entertained with this 551 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: case day. There are abusers out there, and we know 552 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: that Miss Pierce has been charged with abuse of a 553 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: three year old in charge, not convicted. But did you 554 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: know that sometimes abusers and this goes back to an 555 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: earlier statement you made. I don't know if you're aware 556 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: of this, and you may have made a diagnosis here. 557 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: Did you know that some abusers will block the airway 558 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: of the child that they're abusing, uh, to deprive them 559 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: of oxygen in order to get a point across. Okay, 560 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: whether they've got they're running their mouth, or they're doing 561 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: something that the individual doesn't agree with. You've got an 562 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: adult lording over a small child. So I'm going to 563 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: show you. I'm going to put my hand over your 564 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: nose in your mouth, and that'll shut you up and 565 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: you'll feel that horror of that. Well, I think the 566 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: question is did that occur here and it went too far? 567 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I promise you this, zamar King, 568 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: This nine year old buried in the backyard of a 569 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: rental home and abandoned did not deserve this. And I 570 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: can promise you this myself and Dave mac will be 571 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: following up on this case to find more specifics and 572 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: hopefully more answers. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 573 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: body Facts