WEBVTT - Shonda Rhimes 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.320 For nearly two decades, Shonda Rhymes has been one of 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.640 the most important people in television. She ran Thursday nights 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.239 at ABC, and her show Gray's Anatomy is still a 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.799 top performer sixteen years after its debut. Recently, Shanda brought 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.439 her considerable skills to Netflix, where her reign as a 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.639 hit maker continues. I first met Shanda when she joined 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.759 the board of trustees at the Kenny Center, where I 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.880 learned she's not just a creator, but a leader. When 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.519 this episode appeared, Appear, Shanda discusses her ambitions at Netflix 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.560 and the goal she set for her production company, Shonda Land. Shanda, 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.680 you shocked the entertainment world a few years ago when 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.600 you said that you were leaving ABC, even though you 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.279 were mostly their biggest profit source on the entertainment programs 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.239 in the evening. And we're moving to Netflix, which is 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.000 not a television production company but a streaming television company. 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.400 So why did you do that? You know, I really 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.760 had been looking at what was going on in the industry. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.680 You know, television ratings had been sort of slowly lowering. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.680 A lot of people were watching things like Netflix. I 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.080 knew what I was watching UM and I knew what 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:09.800 was exciting me and where it felt like the really 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.760 exciting programming was coming from. And I also was looking 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.360 for a certain kind of freedom. You know, I've been 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.000 making a very particular brand of television for ABC. You know, 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.480 Shonda Land on ABC was a certain brand of television 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.920 which I was very proud of. But I really wanted 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.920 to spread my wings and do more than that, and 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:30.480 this was a real opportunity to do so. So you 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.720 go over to Netflix. Now when everybody is when somebody 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.520 is famous and they move, let's saying a baseball player 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.440 or a football player they go to a different team, 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.959 or somebody tries something different, people are always saying this 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.520 person isn't really as good as they their reputation and 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.320 they're gonna flop. And there's a lot of um. I 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:50.480 would say, in Hollywood, maybe there's some people that don't 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:52.800 like people that are too successful, and so they're kind 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.960 of wishing secretly maybe they're gonna flop. But you didn't flop. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.960 You had an incredible hit. Uh, Your first show Britain 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.120 was the big most successful opening show of any thing 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.400 on Netflix ever. All is Fair in Love and War. 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.400 So when they went on for the first time. Were 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.840 you worried that night whether it would actually be a 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:17.480 success or did you not panic? You know what's interesting, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.359 I wasn't scared about the success of the show. That 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:23.960 that's not my job. I always say that I was 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.840 happy by then because Netflix was already happy. Everybody had 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.560 already really liked the show. Everybody was really pleased with it. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.640 I wasn't worried about numbers or how it was going 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:34.919 to do. One of the things I liked about Netflix 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.160 was everybody told me I didn't have to worry about 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.440 the numbers. You know, ratings don't quote unquote matter on Netflix. Um, 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:43.320 of course they do, but you know, that was the 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.080 sort of thought that was had, so I wasn't worried 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.760 about that. I was much more nervous when we were 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.080 editing the show and we were seeing what the product 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.240 was like. I wanted to see what the shows turned 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.160 out as and how they felt. So once I knew 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.440 the shows were good and I wanted to watch them, 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.120 and I felt really good about them, and I felt 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.040 like they could be exciting and addictive. And then it 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.480 turned out that this they felt the same way, I 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.000 felt fine. I don't even think I paid attention that 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.560 very first day that they came out. You also started 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.840 another show that will be coming on Netflix called Inventing Anna, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.240 which is about a woman who pretended she was a 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.160 wealthy German heiress. It turned out she was not. Why 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.080 didn't you think that was going to be attractive for 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.720 a series? I was fascinated by this story. One because 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:31.160 I'm fascinated by journalism, and I really loved the journalism 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.360 that went with uncovering this story. But two, Anna is 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.680 a really interesting character to me. She's a truly a genius. 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:40.840 And I also think that if she were a guy 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:42.960 and she had pulled it off, people would have just 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.560 applauded her um. But I think because she was a 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.480 woman and she sort of had the audacity to believe 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:50.560 that she could do this, it felt a little bit 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.280 like in a front to a lot of people. She 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.200 was sort of labeled in a lot of ways that 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.720 I don't think we label men. And I liked this 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.200 idea of this woman with all of this ambition and 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.440 no place to put it. There is something about that 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.760 that felt really profound to me and felt very now 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.440 for where we are now. So when you're writing something, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.400 it's a solitary kind of thing. How do you do 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.760 writing but also you're doing production and you're doing other things. 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.360 How do you concentrate and have the time alone to write? Well? 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.960 You know, there is an aspect of writing that is 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.040 um communal. You know, there is the writer's room where 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.000 it's you and sort of seven or right other writers, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.359 and your job is to sort of help them through 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.200 writing their drafts of the show that you've created, which 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:36.279 is both amazing and fun and very difficult. What the 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.480 pandemic did, I think is sort of make that writer's 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.880 room process a lot harder. Um. But for me, you know, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.120 writing is it's a very solitary experience, and I'm a 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.120 very fast writer when I have the space and the 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.839 time to do so, I feel like I'm much more 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.719 naturally an introvert, and so being you know, being the 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.800 person who writes and does that stuff is much easier 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.120 for me than the other parts of it, which are 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.560 the public parts or the the producing city in groups 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.120 and explaining to everybody what has to happen part. But 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.520 finding the balance has been um much easier than I thought. 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.560 During COVID, I assume you were working out of your 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.479 home more than your office. So is it easier to 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.080 write a show or create a show from home with 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:22.520 three young daughters running around? Um? I found, you know, 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.719 being at home to be both revelatory in the sense 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.120 that I had always felt like there was so much 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:31.159 there was so much work to be done that I 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.560 had to be standing right in front of everybody to 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.480 be doing and then I discovered that no, actually, a 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.520 a lot of people got a lot more freedom to 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.080 do things that I didn't need to be controlling and 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.839 be I got a lot more writing done just being 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.480 at home. Are you going to change the way you operate? 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.719 Will you spend more time at home now? Or you say, actually, 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.600 I can't wait to get back to my office. I 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.040 definitely I'm going to spend more time at home, mainly 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.240 because I get a lot more writing done here. Um, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.000 there's not as many interruptions. I've discovered how little I 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.360 am needed on set. You know. I used to joke 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.800 that if I'm standing on a sound stage, I'm the 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.640 only person who's not working because I'm either writing or editing. 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.000 So from where they're shooting, I'm the only person not 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.520 doing a job. So to me, UM, I think there's 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.400 a lot more that can be done if I'm at 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.080 home now, which I never would have believed before. Um, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.600 it's that feeling of you're so you're so necessary everywhere 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.560 and discovering that you're not that necessary everywhere, but that 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.040 the places where you can be necessary, you can really 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.400 make a difference if you focus on those. So let's 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.279 talk about your background. Um, you grew up in a 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:41.599 suburb of Chicago. You're the youngest of six children, is 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.320 that right correct? So when you're the youngest of six, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:45.680 I guess you get a lot of hand me down 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.440 clothes and your parents really pay attention to the youngest 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.480 of six. By that time, they're kind of done, aren't 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.880 they gone. You know what's interesting is I didn't get 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.360 a lot of hand me down clothes, and my parents 0:06:55.400 --> 0:07:00.320 were very focused on us, which was delightful for me. Um, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.680 my parents are educators, so I think for them, they're 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:07.480 very They were very intensely focused on um, making sure 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.920 that we had what we needed. My mother I always said, like, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.640 if we were poor, I did not know it because 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.640 my mother made all of our clothes and they were 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.080 all fantastic looking, and we there was a lot of 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:19.880 focus placed on us. My mother stayed home for a 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:21.360 long time for us, which I think it was a 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.880 big sacrifice for somebody as intelligent as she was and 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.800 as interested in being at work as she was. But 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.280 she really made sure that we were well placed in 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:31.800 the world and sort of ready to go out into 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.360 the world and be who we were supposed to be. Okay, 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.360 so you grew up and you went to college. How 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.880 did you happen to pick Dartmouth Because it's fairly isolated 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.400 and much different than Chicago. You know, it was interesting. 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.680 I went um on a college tour and Dartmouth was 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.800 one of the places that we visited, and honestly, I 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.040 fell in love with the place when I got there. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.360 It was beautiful, It was in the middle of nowhere. 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.000 It felt very much to me like what college was 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.200 supposed to be. Every single person I met there had 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.160 been was really friendly and had something great to say 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.880 about it, and very different from a lot of the 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.840 other colleges I went to. It was surprisingly diverse at 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.760 the time. I think they had you know, what might 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.200 not seem like a big number now, but I think 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.680 like eighteen percent of the students were students of color 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.800 or something like that, and it felt very welcoming, and 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.000 I thought, well, this is a place for me, and 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.440 I absolutely loved my time there. So when you graduated, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.480 you said, Okay, now I'm going to go into something 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.400 important like private equity or investment banking or not. You know, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:31.640 I was really lost for a little while when I 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.000 got out of college because I really wanted to be 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.439 a writer. I wanted to be Tony Morrison when I 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.120 grew up, but I didn't know how to do that. 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.480 And I also, you know, my parents had sacrificed a 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.000 lot financially for me to go to this school, and 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.199 I didn't want to be a disappointment. So I got 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.320 a job in advertising for a little bit. And then 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.080 I read an article that said, um, it was harder 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:56.599 to get into USC Film School than it was to 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.280 get into Harvard Law School. And I thought, well, my 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.600 parents can't fall that because it's graduate school and it's 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.640 difficult to get into. And so I applied to USC 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:05.200 Film School. I got in and I went and I 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.680 told my parents, but I can teach, and as professors, 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.600 my parents thought, well, she's right, she can teach, and 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.920 so it felt like something real for them. So you 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.120 got a master's at USC and then you were sort 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.920 of writing on the side a bit during the daytime 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.960 or an evenings or how are you doing that? Yeah, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.280 I got a job at a place that helped the 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.600 mentally ill homeless learned job skills and find places to live. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:30.959 I was like an administrative assistant, and at night I 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.640 would write my scripts and I had a I had 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.840 an agent or a lawyer at the time. You know 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.600 that everybody got one out of film school kind of 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.600 hoping that something would happen for them. And I end 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.240 up selling a script and that script basically changed my life. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.360 And I had that script not sold, you might be 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.880 still in advertising or what would you think you'd be doing. 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.960 I remember when, like a month before that script sold, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:01.000 I had applied for the post baccalaureate year that prepared 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.920 you for medical school at Brent Mahr and I was 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:04.240 going to go and do that. And then I was 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.160 going to go to medical school because I thought, I 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.440 can't I can't start this way anymore, like this is 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.200 not this is not for me. I'm going to go 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.240 be a doctor. And luckily I did not do that. 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.880 So the medical professions loss is the creative writing communities 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.240 gain right because you're not a doctor, but it worked 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.600 out okay, And I hope that, you know, maybe the 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.880 writing about doctors inspired a lot of young women to 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.559 be doctors, So hopefully it was also the medical professions games, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:30.760 as I like to think of it. Most people who 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:35.120 have been successful in Hollywood as producers where writers have 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:40.720 been white men. Um Norman Lear Aaron Spelling are two 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.679 classic examples. When you came along, you were not a 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.719 man and you were not white. So was there a 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:51.000 lot of discrimination against you that you felt pompably at 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:56.079 the time or was it very subtle? I was tind 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.040 of have to be a difficult question to answer. And 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.880 I say that because, um, I don't know what it 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.320 feels like to be a white man, So I don't 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.360 know how people were treating the white men at the time. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.480 I only know how I've always been treated. And I was, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.839 you know, raised very clearly by my parents to be 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.040 a person who did not look at things as obstacles. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.240 I looked at things as hilst to climb. And when 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.840 anybody treated me in a way that was not respectful, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.080 I was taught that that was always their problem and 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:26.680 that they needed to be put in their place. And 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.120 then I should move forward. And so I'm sure that 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.120 I experienced a lot of things that were not probably 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.360 what other people experienced. I just chose not to be 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.800 defeated by them or or even bothered. Some of them. 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.280 I probably didn't even bother to notice. So today, given 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.679 how prominent you are in the entertainment world, do you 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.800 feel discrimination at any point now? Or you don't feel 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:53.680 any discrimination? Um? No, I mean, I'm there's an there's 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.120 an in celerity that comes with, you know, being in 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.600 a certain position in Hollywood, But that doesn't change the 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.880 fact that, you know, if somebody doesn't know who you are, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.800 they still see you as, you know, just another person 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.280 of a person of color. The racism in this country 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.000 is the racism in this country, unfortunately. So the events 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.000 that led to the murder of George Floyd obviously affected 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:20.760 our country dramatically, and certainly the African American community particularly. Um, 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.480 how did you respond to that you're a prominent African 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.640 American figure in the country. Um, did you feel you 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.040 had some obligation to speak out or do more or 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:34.800 how did it change your life? Would you say? I mean, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:39.160 I still I think that I think the events well, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.480 I think that the entire George Floyd situation. I did 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.360 a couple of things. One, obviously, like anybody else, I 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.640 felt nothing but rage and frustration. But I also felt 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:55.000 real dismay that a lot of people use that event 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.760 to finally discover that racism existence. Um. That was. That 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.040 was disturbing to me. That it took that something that 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.880 horrific for people to go like, oh wait, there's inequality. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.559 That was That was a little upsetting for me. I 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.440 don't necessarily know that I felt like I had a 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:16.559 particular obligation to do anything, um, more than any other person. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.400 Did you know a lot of people were marching, a 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.600 lot of people were protesting. I think the beauty of 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.000 what happened with George Floyd was how many average citizens 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.840 stood up and did something. Um. I think that's that's 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.640 the power of that moment, and hopefully will continue to 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.360 be the power of that moment. But I also feel like, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.840 whatever I'm asked this question, I never quite know how 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.160 to walk the line between saying like, well, here's what 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.320 I did, and here's what I think is important, and 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.560 because I feel like it might let people off the 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.520 hook a little bit, because it also suggests that racism 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.960 is the problem of people of color. And really, I 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.600 feel like I always want to say, well, it's not 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.320 what I did to work on the George Floyd problem. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.400 It's not what I did to work on racism. You know, 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.400 race is m is a white people's problem, and what 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:03.719 are white people doing to solve it? So, to me, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.559 like that's the big question that should be asked. Public 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.160 companies often focus on shareholders now increasing they're worried about 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.760 other stakeholders, employees, communities, and so forth. Your own company, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.720 do you focus it on having some social responsibility as well? 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.920 You know, it's interesting we've been struggling with that concept 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.520 right now because we don't sell activism. We sell entertainment. 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.280 And you know, if we wake somebody up to the 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.200 idea that they have a severarate responsibility or that there's 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.520 a social justice issue that they could be involved in, 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.320 or that there's a feminist issue that they can be 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.040 involved in, that's a wonderful side effect. But I also 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.480 know that given just who we are as a company 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.120 and the kind of stories we tell and the kind 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.400 of work that we do, there's other aspects of us 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.560 that feel important to how we as a company engaged 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.640 with the with the area around us. So I feel 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.680 like it's important, for instance, to create worlds in which 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.320 we're making pathways for other people cloud have opportunity in 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:06.360 this industry UM and figuring out other philanthropic ways that 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.720 makes sense for us as a company UM that feel 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.800 right for who we are. So you're thinking companies should 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.560 perhaps have a role in commenting on climate change or 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.040 rightel discriminations and assessing that works for us. But I 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.800 do feel like I spend my energy and my money 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.480 and my time on companies that are that share the 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.880 values that I share. And I'm not interested in spending 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:30.880 my money and time and company and companies that don't 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.480 share those values. And I mean I actively don't share 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.800 those values. I don't necessarily know how I feel about 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:37.840 companies that remain neutral at this point. I've been really 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:39.720 thinking about that because I do think people have the 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.200 right to remain politically neutral. It's the ones that sort 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:48.200 of are going in opposite directions, actively destroying the climate 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.560 or actively working against women's right to choose things that 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.320 things that I find worrisome that I that I'm concerned about. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.760 So let's talk about Shanda Land. You've built a quite 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.680 a I would say entertainment company back. So let's go 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.160 through some of the things and how you're able to 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.360 do all that. So let's talk about, for example, UM, 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.880 you have a podcast as well. Now you're doing with 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.840 I Heart Media. Is that right? We have a podcast division, yeah, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.280 called Shonda Land Audio. The great thing is is that 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.920 you know, I am really lucky that I have amazing 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.960 people who work with me at Shonda Land. So UM, 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.640 Sandy Bailey, who runs our digital division, came to me 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.440 and said, I really think that we could have a 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.360 podcast division and it could be really powerful. And she's 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.480 been overseeing it and has come up with some really 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.520 great shows. And part of the beauty of it is 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.840 we can take somebody like Katie Lows, who start on 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.160 Scandal and who was in inventing Anna, and showcase her 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.200 with a podcast called Katie's Crib, which is about parenting, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.720 which has become one of the most popular podcasts on 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.120 Apple iTunes and on my Heart and those things to 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.680 listen to. We can do a podcast with someone like 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.840 Laverne Cox who's also in inventing Anna. We can take 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.240 a show like Bridgetain create a podcast about it, UM 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.560 that's doing really well. Also do behind the scenes video footage. 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.320 Take that video footage, put it on our website, UM 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.280 shondlan dot com and sort of have a nice synergy going. 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.960 And that's been really important to me to really create 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.600 a world in which all of the aspects of our 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.800 shows and all the aspects of UM are are people 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.480 I call them the people in our Shawonda Land family 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.600 can find a place to be creative and exist in 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.359 one spot. Now you have a partnership as well with Dove, 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.560 and that is designed to, I think, among other things, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.640 let people UM know more about the way their hair 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:34.200 might be UM worn. Can you explain your views on hair, 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.959 particularly for African American women and children. Well, you know, 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.480 the partnership with Dove has been long standing, and one 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.200 of the things that I always have loved about Dove 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.400 is that they have been really UM positive and really 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.879 assertive about the idea that real beauty is defined in 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.480 all forms. You know, every skin and everybody, every kind 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.000 of woman is their own definition of beauty. And they 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.680 have been, you know, instrumental in working on Crown Act, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.840 which is um a law that's been passed and I 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.440 can't remember how many states by this point UM that 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.680 says that you can't be discriminated against because of the 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.800 way you wear your hair, and that has been a 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.359 real issue for a lot of people of color. You know, 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.040 you hear the stories of the basketball kid who gets 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.600 his dreads cut off before he's allowed to play, or 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.800 somebody who's fired because of the way they're wearing their hair. 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.959 At work. We try really hard to sort of umu 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.840 police the way people look, because it doesn't look like, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.080 you know, the way somebody feels that they should look, 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.239 and that is a real bias in this country. And 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.399 so the idea that we could create something called the 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.359 Crown Act allows people to you know, sort of embrace 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.600 who they are culturally and wear their hair the way 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.000 they need to wear their hair, or be who they 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.440 need to be, versus trying to achieve some standard that's 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:54.680 based on sort of a white, you know, European centric 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.480 idea of what people are supposed to look like. So 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.800 you wrote a book as well, You're Yes, and that 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.040 was reflecting the fact that you're one of your sisters 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.800 had told you you always said no. So you decided 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.400 that one year you would say yes to speaking engagements, 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:15.159 graduation commencement speech, and so forth, So, what made you 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.720 decide to say yes that one year? And are you 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.360 happy you did? So? You know she did, she said, UM, 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.640 one Thanksgiving, she just said, you never say yes to anything, 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.760 you know. I've been detailing all of these these invitations 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:33.040 I've gotten, and that year, UM we were I was 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.040 on the board of the Kennedy Center, and UM I 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.000 had gone to I went to the Kennedy Center Honors 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.560 and I was told, not asked, told that I was 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:42.800 going to sit in the box with President Obama and 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:48.119 Mrs Obama UM for the honors. And I did, and 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.199 I had a wonderful time. And I didn't know them 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:51.560 at the time, and I had a wonderful time, and 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.840 it was a lovely evening. But I realized on the 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.119 way home that if somebody had asked me if I 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:57.840 wanted to sit in the box with them, I would 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.800 have said no. And I would have said no because 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:02.520