Speaker 1: I I'm Rick Devised. You probably know me from the
Speaker 1: UK version of the Office, or the Office as we
Speaker 1: call it in the UK. Hello, and welcome back to
Speaker 1: the Office deep Dive. I am your host Brian Baumgartner.
Speaker 1: Today you will get to listen to my conversation with
Speaker 1: the one and only one of my comedy heroes, Ricky Gervais.
Speaker 1: Ricky was the co creator of the British version of
Speaker 1: the Office along with Stephen Merchant, who we spoke to
Speaker 1: last week, and Ricky, in addition to creating the show,
Speaker 1: also played David Brent, the British counterpart and the inspiration
Speaker 1: for Michael Scott, who was somehow possibly even more cringe
Speaker 1: e than Michael was. I didn't think it was possible either,
Speaker 1: but only Ricky himself could pull that off. Now, obviously,
Speaker 1: Ricky is a very, very busy man, and when I
Speaker 1: interviewed him, he was doing a ton of press for
Speaker 1: another show he created called Afterlife, which I am obsessed
Speaker 1: with that show. I absolutely love it. Everyone. You should
Speaker 1: go and watch it if you haven't um. But Ricky
Speaker 1: was doing so many TV appearances at the time that
Speaker 1: when I spoke to him, he thought that this was
Speaker 1: another video interview, which it was not. So here I am,
Speaker 1: I'm lounging in I'm in my sweatpants, and Ricky is
Speaker 1: looking sharp, he's looking camera ready, he's looking Gervais sexy,
Speaker 1: is how I like to call it. Um, So just
Speaker 1: keep that image in your head as you listen. Um. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I am totally psyched that I got a chance to
Speaker 1: talk to him, and I so appreciate him making the
Speaker 1: time for us. So sit back, relax and enjoy the
Speaker 1: incomparable Ricky Gervais. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month, left
Speaker 1: over from the night before. Um, do you know what
Speaker 1: we're doing here? Isn't a podcast about the history of
Speaker 1: the Yeah? So, like the ten second version is basically
Speaker 1: the Office American version since two thousand seventeen, it's the
Speaker 1: number one streaming show in the world. It has over
Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty five billion minutes that have been
Speaker 1: stre stream in essentially two years. And so what we're
Speaker 1: doing is going back and trying to figure out why
Speaker 1: this has happened. Um. Yeah, Well, I mean it's a
Speaker 1: testament to all the hard work, hard work that went
Speaker 1: into it, and the rioting and the acting, the fact
Speaker 1: that it's about everyday people and about everything exactly. All right,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to start at the beginning and I'll
Speaker 1: ask you questions. So what were the what were the
Speaker 1: influences that had you and you know, Stephen talked to
Speaker 1: me a little bit about you know, how you guys
Speaker 1: got to know each other and you hired him as
Speaker 1: as your assistant the radio station. Well, what were some
Speaker 1: of the influences that you guys had. Well, it goes
Speaker 1: back before that, It goes back before that. I had
Speaker 1: David Frient as a character. Um, you know a few
Speaker 1: years before that. In fact, I worked in an office
Speaker 1: for like ten years, and obviously that's the biggest influence
Speaker 1: real life, being part of it of a working office,
Speaker 1: and you know, you start noticing that the fact that
Speaker 1: you're thrown together with random people and you have to
Speaker 1: get along. So you know, that was one theme. Um.
Speaker 1: Coupled with that. Throughout the nineties, I watched a lot
Speaker 1: of those docu soaps that were happening here where ordinary
Speaker 1: people got their fifteen minutes of fame. Um. There was
Speaker 1: one called Airline and Airport, and you know, all that,
Speaker 1: you know, the hotel, and sort of they'd make celebrities
Speaker 1: out of these normal people because they were just ordinary people.
Speaker 1: But they were funny and at work and and of
Speaker 1: course now fames a different beasts. Now they'd get an
Speaker 1: agent and they try and get their own game show
Speaker 1: and make the most of it, and you know, but
Speaker 1: then it was sort of it was they were quite quaint.
Speaker 1: But I did notice that people started to be obsessed
Speaker 1: with fame in the nineties, and of course that's just
Speaker 1: got worse and worse, worse, and and it sort of
Speaker 1: eats itself. So those are the those are the sort
Speaker 1: of big things, an ordinary person getting his one shot
Speaker 1: of fame, wanting to be famous. You know, if you
Speaker 1: take away that it was a fake documentary, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make much sense because you say, well, why is David
Speaker 1: Brent acting like that? Oh, he wants to be famous,
Speaker 1: he wants to be discovered, he wants to be loved,
Speaker 1: he needs to hug you know. So so it was
Speaker 1: a bit it was a we weren't spoofing the genre,
Speaker 1: but the fact that it was meant to be a documentary.
Speaker 1: You know, it's fifty of the show before you start
Speaker 1: writing the sitcom and um, so how much how much
Speaker 1: of the comedy comes from it being a documentary. Well,
Speaker 1: you've got to believe this is a real person who
Speaker 1: wants to be famous. So you've got to really believe that.
Speaker 1: Um your eavesdropping almost you're you're looking on someone's life.
Speaker 1: Because if you start thinking about you know it's it's written,
Speaker 1: anything can happen. So you have to try and make
Speaker 1: the ordinary extraordinary. And once you realize that David Brent
Speaker 1: just wants to be discovered and become famous and needs
Speaker 1: to hug it all seems to make sense really, and
Speaker 1: from a personal point of view, I wanted it to
Speaker 1: be a more about body language, not just acting and
Speaker 1: saying the lines. I wanted it to be you know,
Speaker 1: people notice things like I hated it in the drama
Speaker 1: or comedy where someone would hang up the phone and
Speaker 1: then talk to themselves, you know, like go mm hm,
Speaker 1: he doesn't usually call on a Tuesday. They had to
Speaker 1: find a way of showing someone was worried or lying,
Speaker 1: and you know you do that by the guy sort
Speaker 1: of not looking at you and then flicking his eyes
Speaker 1: at the camera, or you know, you had to somehow
Speaker 1: act like you would if you were being filmed and
Speaker 1: being caught out, and so there was there was lots
Speaker 1: of reminders that this was a fake documentary because otherwise
Speaker 1: it just wasn't that special or interesting. It's that there'd
Speaker 1: be no reason to be making, you know, a sitcom
Speaker 1: where these people were acting like that, unless it was
Speaker 1: because one of them sort of wanting to be discovered
Speaker 1: and famous. So it really was about you know, TV
Speaker 1: in itself. It was about people, the beginning of this
Speaker 1: new narcisism, this beginning of people doing anything, you know,
Speaker 1: living their life like an open wound, just doing anything,
Speaker 1: and and that was the beginning of bad behavior being rewarded.
Speaker 1: You know, as soon as we people thought, well I
Speaker 1: made it. I made an absolute proud of myself on television.
Speaker 1: But they've invited me on a new program to talk
Speaker 1: about it. You know, it's okay. And then people start,
Speaker 1: you know with people that would break the law and
Speaker 1: then write a book, you know. So that was the
Speaker 1: ninth is. I saw that a lot. But apart from that,
Speaker 1: it was it was still about people. It was still
Speaker 1: about people being randomly thrown together and getting along, you know,
Speaker 1: and and conflict. But that the fact that it was
Speaker 1: a fag documentary, and one person in particular wanted to
Speaker 1: come out of this famous because he was looking for something.
Speaker 1: He was searching for something, you know. That was a
Speaker 1: very very big part of it. Yeah, it's interesting you
Speaker 1: talk about behavior, right, and that so much of the
Speaker 1: comedy comes from that. Greg Daniels shared with me that
Speaker 1: he would send his writers down to the set to
Speaker 1: just observe the actors because you can't write people's behavior,
Speaker 1: you can't write their body posture, you can't write that stuff.
Speaker 1: And so to really observe, for the writers on the
Speaker 1: American Office, to actually observe the actors and the characters
Speaker 1: in their setting, because so much of the humor came
Speaker 1: from that. Yeah, and that's because obviously, in realize, so
Speaker 1: much communication is non verbal. You know, just someone being,
Speaker 1: as I said, someone lying, they don't look at you,
Speaker 1: They touched their face. They when they're nervous, they touched
Speaker 1: their own head. You know. Brent kept fiddling with his tie.
Speaker 1: He wasn't quite comfortable being in charge. The way he
Speaker 1: convulsed and giggled to show that he wanted to be
Speaker 1: one of the gangs. And you know, you're you're right
Speaker 1: that if we hadn't shot a little pilot showing the character.
Speaker 1: It was like a couple of years before we did
Speaker 1: the actual thing. I went back to the office I
Speaker 1: used to work in, and I had like friends who
Speaker 1: still worked there, but I we used as extras, so
Speaker 1: it looked very hyper real. But they also like to
Speaker 1: see what I meant if I have said, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a character. He's quite boring, really and quite desperate
Speaker 1: to be loved. He doesn't say anything funny, he screws
Speaker 1: up jokes in and when he makes a joke, no
Speaker 1: one laughs. And then he touched his tie and looked
Speaker 1: at the camera. They think, what is this? You know,
Speaker 1: it just doesn't jump off the page. It was it
Speaker 1: was a performance piece. Initially it was it was about
Speaker 1: behavior and about a man who was doing stuff to
Speaker 1: be loved and famous, and deep down he wanted to
Speaker 1: be popular and he thought being famous would that would
Speaker 1: be a short cut to it. And you know, he
Speaker 1: he threw everything. You know, he wanted to be a
Speaker 1: philosopher and a teacher. He wanted to be cool, he
Speaker 1: wanted to be sexy, he wanted to be funny, he
Speaker 1: wanted to be all those things that he wasn't quite
Speaker 1: And that is comedy. It's most basic, particularly in sitcom.
Speaker 1: A sitcom is about an average guy or gal and
Speaker 1: an average person who's trying to do something they're not
Speaker 1: equipped to do. And that's what we're laughing at the
Speaker 1: blind Spot. So I just made David brent so about
Speaker 1: the blind Spot. But it was so it was so
Speaker 1: obvious and cringe e what we were trying to say
Speaker 1: with this man. He was delusional, And that in itself
Speaker 1: was about people who wanted to be famous. Because in
Speaker 1: the nineties there were people, as I said, there were
Speaker 1: these people that in you know, quaint docu soaps, just
Speaker 1: getting on with their life and being discovered and having
Speaker 1: their fifteen minutes and that was it. But then all
Speaker 1: these talent shows started and how many times have you
Speaker 1: seen people on the talent show crying, going, please, I
Speaker 1: just want this, vote for me, I just want this.
Speaker 1: You want to go, well, what's that got to do
Speaker 1: with me? Why you what? What's that got to do
Speaker 1: with us? What? What a we care? Whether you want
Speaker 1: to be famous just because you want it, Well, what
Speaker 1: are you going to do for it? What? What have you? Whatever?
Speaker 1: Have you put in? You know? And then It wasn't
Speaker 1: even talent shows. Then it was just people and being
Speaker 1: famous for being famous and doing anything to be famous,
Speaker 1: you know, or being a housewife, I said, being a housewife, right,
Speaker 1: like suddenly being a housewife Beverly Hills or whatever, like yeah,
Speaker 1: it's yeah exactly, but but just just people, you know.
Speaker 1: And then it got to be that the producers are
Speaker 1: in on it. People would say, let me go in,
Speaker 1: big Brother, and I promise our cause trouble, start a fight,
Speaker 1: to take my clothes off, and the producers said, okay,
Speaker 1: you're in. It was these It was honestly, it was
Speaker 1: these contrived things people. You know, you watch shows like
Speaker 1: The Apprentice, and these people they say anything to get
Speaker 1: on with the blessing of the producer that wants to
Speaker 1: see conflict, you know, are going there, I'll put the
Speaker 1: cat among the pigeons. I'm a man who will steamroller
Speaker 1: anyone who gets in my way. I say what I think,
Speaker 1: I ruck all feathers, and the producers are going, well, great,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Yeah, let's let's and and suddenly there
Speaker 1: was there was this culture of misbehavior that was being rewarded.
Speaker 1: But I think that it was just the start of it.
Speaker 1: When I came with David Brent, it was just you know,
Speaker 1: and as I say, he was mainly before television, before docusents,
Speaker 1: he was mainly just a Frankenstein of those guys you
Speaker 1: meet growing up. You know, your elders who should know better,
Speaker 1: your teachers who sometimes embarrass themselves, your first boss who
Speaker 1: was an idiot, and it's it's someone behaving when they
Speaker 1: should know better. And that's why it was important that
Speaker 1: he was the boss, really because if he weren't the boss,
Speaker 1: he could be an idiot. And sometimes sitcoms made the difference,
Speaker 1: you know, the mistake of they they got that right
Speaker 1: and then they went on holiday, and on holiday it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to much because people can behave badly on holiday.
Speaker 1: So you need that restriction, you need that authority that
Speaker 1: he's undermining. You know, it has to be someone who
Speaker 1: shouldn't be behaving like this because they should be a
Speaker 1: role model and they should know better. So all those
Speaker 1: things were put in the mix. And the big theme
Speaker 1: of it as well was uh, men as boys and
Speaker 1: women has grown ups because there was also a PC
Speaker 1: culture that I saw come in where people were taught
Speaker 1: what to say and do, but they didn't really mean it.
Speaker 1: So guys like him, they knew that they couldn't be
Speaker 1: sexist upstairs because they're you know, they're get in trouble
Speaker 1: with hr. And they talked a good talk and they
Speaker 1: talked about sexism, misogyny and racism, but deep down they
Speaker 1: hadn't changed and they could get away with that in
Speaker 1: the warehouse. So Brent was caught between two worlds because
Speaker 1: he wanted to be loved by everyone. He wanted to
Speaker 1: be a lad downstairs with a warehouse, but then he
Speaker 1: had to behave properly in front of his boss. So
Speaker 1: it was a man who was caught. He was caught
Speaker 1: between two worlds. He wanted to say terrible things, but
Speaker 1: the camera was rolling. He wanted to be one of
Speaker 1: the guys, but his boss was watching. So this was
Speaker 1: a man who wasn't comfortable with himself because he wasn't
Speaker 1: being honest with himself. He it wasn't being honest because
Speaker 1: he didn't He just wanted a hand out of business
Speaker 1: cards that said, great bloke, just laugh at my jokes.
Speaker 1: But life isn't that easy. Do you remember the first
Speaker 1: time you met Ben Silverman, Yes I do. I was
Speaker 1: walking down the street in London. I think I was
Speaker 1: going to see my agent, and the phone rang um
Speaker 1: and he said, Hi, it's Ben Silverman. You don't know me.
Speaker 1: I wanna I want to remake the Office for America.
Speaker 1: And I went, okay, all right, he said, can we
Speaker 1: beat up? He said, I mean town. I went right.
Speaker 1: He said, where are you? I'll come to you. I've
Speaker 1: jumped the cab. I went okay, and I looked up
Speaker 1: and I said, right and right outside Starbucks in ward
Speaker 1: Or Street and he went, wait there, I'll be there
Speaker 1: in fifty minutes, and he jumped in a cab. He
Speaker 1: got I've never met anyone like him. He came and
Speaker 1: found me because obviously knew what he looked like because
Speaker 1: he'd watched the Office. And he talked to me and
Speaker 1: I said, well, listen, let me introduce you to my
Speaker 1: agent to get the ball rolling. And I took him
Speaker 1: in to see Duncan Hayes as my UK still is
Speaker 1: my UK agent, and that's and that was the beginning
Speaker 1: of it. And then I can't remember all the details
Speaker 1: or all the phone calls, but I think the next
Speaker 1: big step was we sort of auditions show runners and
Speaker 1: we saw some amazing ones from my favorite programs of
Speaker 1: all time. We we chose Greg, and I think we
Speaker 1: chose Greg not just because of his body as work,
Speaker 1: which was as good as anyone's, and he was a
Speaker 1: nice chat but I think I think it was because
Speaker 1: he was the only one that brought up that he thought.
Speaker 1: It was a love story that was very important to me,
Speaker 1: the love story. So you know, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: I never thought of it was, you know, just the sitcom.
Speaker 1: You know, you traditionally sitcoms were, as I say, an
Speaker 1: ordinary guy getting into Caper's and then you know, back
Speaker 1: at Square one, and there wasn't there wasn't really romance.
Speaker 1: But you know, we stole that from America because you know,
Speaker 1: and movies, because you know, there was always a love
Speaker 1: interest in movies and a lot of Americans shows had
Speaker 1: more romance and love interests than than ours. It was
Speaker 1: usually about a grumpy, middle aged man, so we we
Speaker 1: like that. And then I can't remember what all of
Speaker 1: this this was in, but I think it was the
Speaker 1: Golden Globes where we won to the Office and I
Speaker 1: won Best Comedy Actor. I think that was the same
Speaker 1: week that we went to Ben Silverman's office and I
Speaker 1: don't know it before and after, but then Ben and
Speaker 1: Greg came to London. At that I think that was
Speaker 1: nearer the time when we were very getting very close
Speaker 1: to actually start in production, and we worked out the translation,
Speaker 1: what was slow in America, you know, what was the
Speaker 1: equivalent of this, and what was the equivalent of that?
Speaker 1: And do we have this and what we almost did
Speaker 1: like a blueprint to you know, just americanizing stuff, and
Speaker 1: then we started. Then we started auditions and and that
Speaker 1: was it. I do remember at one point, I think
Speaker 1: before or auditions, or when we were thinking of looking
Speaker 1: for you know, that David Ben and I think Ben
Speaker 1: Silverman called me and said, why don't you playing? And
Speaker 1: I said, well, what were the point of that? I
Speaker 1: did my bed. Now I want to rest. Now I
Speaker 1: want some I want some other schmuck to do a
Speaker 1: two episodes. But mainly my real apart from the fact
Speaker 1: that I was lazy and I was terrified of being
Speaker 1: working hard for seven years, I said, no, this should
Speaker 1: be this should be made by Americans for Americans. And
Speaker 1: I was flattered that they even let us being involved
Speaker 1: as we were. But you know, it really took off
Speaker 1: when they started making their own show. Is. The first
Speaker 1: episode was basically a remake, but then it just got
Speaker 1: further and further away, and you know, by the end,
Speaker 1: it yeah, it was. It was its own show. And
Speaker 1: I remember that people were scared because The Office was
Speaker 1: such a media darling, you know, to a few Americans,
Speaker 1: even its peak. I remember the Office in America, the
Speaker 1: our version. I remember it was the biggest show on
Speaker 1: BBC America and it had something like one point one million,
Speaker 1: and Ben Dield was saying, listen, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people that haven't seen this that won't be prejudiced. But
Speaker 1: of course, I remember he was worried about the press
Speaker 1: saying this is a you know this, we love the original,
Speaker 1: um and he came up with a really good thing.
Speaker 1: When they were saying, why would you do a remake
Speaker 1: of this that the original was perfect, he said, well,
Speaker 1: why I wouldn't. I wouldn't make the film of a
Speaker 1: shitty novel. I'd make a film of the best novel
Speaker 1: I could find. And I thought that was such a
Speaker 1: clever counter. But of course we want to remake of
Speaker 1: something that's really good. At what we do a remake
Speaker 1: of something that was terrible, And then soon, you know,
Speaker 1: people forgot that there was original. Some people don't even
Speaker 1: know there's an original to most Americans that they have
Speaker 1: no idea that this is a remake, and they don't care.
Speaker 1: And you know, and I imagine most people who love
Speaker 1: the American Office they prefer it to the British version.
Speaker 1: So and which is a great position to be in
Speaker 1: for me. I remember once it was after syndication and someone,
Speaker 1: someone on Twitter sent me a tweet that said, the
Speaker 1: American version of the Office is so much bigger and
Speaker 1: better than yours. How does that make you feel? And
Speaker 1: I sent back, fucking rich exactly. I don't think you
Speaker 1: had any problem with the success of the American version
Speaker 1: of the Office. No, I was, you know. But I
Speaker 1: remember also early days, it was an okay start. It
Speaker 1: was a new sitcom. I mean it was on network TV,
Speaker 1: so it was already audacious, was pretty out there, and
Speaker 1: the ratings were not good. It was a bit spiky
Speaker 1: and different, and and I think it struggled, and I
Speaker 1: think we got they deferred people's wages too, so it
Speaker 1: could keep going, and and you know, people really pulled
Speaker 1: together to try and get this going. And then I
Speaker 1: think that there was two big breaks as I remember
Speaker 1: one was they discovered that it was watched by the
Speaker 1: right demographic for advertising, even though it was only getting
Speaker 1: a few millions. I think it was the highest percentage
Speaker 1: of people earning over a hundred thousand dollars. I think
Speaker 1: it was second to Win and Grace, And so advertisers
Speaker 1: loved it, and so the channel loved it. So there
Speaker 1: was all that behind the theme things going on. And
Speaker 1: then Steve Kral became a huge film star, so it
Speaker 1: took off. It just and then it grew and grew
Speaker 1: and grew and got bigger and bigger, and it's still
Speaker 1: getting bigger and bigger. It's remarkable. Remarkable. Yeah. One of
Speaker 1: my favorite Emmy moments of all time was the bit
Speaker 1: you did with Steve Correll. What do you think about
Speaker 1: the fact that he never won an Emmy? Didn't he
Speaker 1: never How many did he get nothinated for? He must
Speaker 1: he got nominated every year. He probably got six or seven,
Speaker 1: but he never won. Wow. Wow, oh in your face,
Speaker 1: Steve Carrell? Um? Wow? So was I up against him? Then?
Speaker 1: When I won I won an Emmy for my before
Speaker 1: it's an extra and I wasn't there. And that's the
Speaker 1: one where John Stewart gave it to Steve. Yes, oh
Speaker 1: so one of them was my fault that you didn't win.
Speaker 1: Now I feel bad. Yeah, that was funny that bit.
Speaker 1: I just I bumped into him on the red carpet
Speaker 1: and said, I've got an idea if you could that. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm going to come and get my only back and
Speaker 1: you've stolen it. And he just went, do whatever you want.
Speaker 1: And he just played it so so deadpalent and so
Speaker 1: great and it was just lovely when he bent down
Speaker 1: and gave it back to me. He's great, I think.
Speaker 1: I you know, I have said this many times an interview,
Speaker 1: never to his face. I always wind him up in public,
Speaker 1: obviously that's my job. But he is such a brilliant,
Speaker 1: hard working, conscientious, it's just a lovely man who it's great.
Speaker 1: He's so versat up And then we got to see
Speaker 1: him that he was a dramatic actor after all this
Speaker 1: was over. I mean, we really we really lucked out
Speaker 1: when we got Steve Corral for being our sitcom, didn't we. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's one of the best. Yeah, because you know he
Speaker 1: can be you know, he can be snide and rude
Speaker 1: and unaware and somehow you still have that feeling where
Speaker 1: you you just want to love him. I know, I
Speaker 1: know it is. Yeah, he's some, he's remarkable, but I
Speaker 1: still beat him at the ends. Let's not forget that.
Speaker 1: Oh dear, um, were you pleased with how Greg Daniels
Speaker 1: adapted the show? I thought it was great. I just
Speaker 1: thought it was great, how dense it was, how fast
Speaker 1: everything was, how many plot lines, and how written it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know there was, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: more writers, but I just thought he held it together
Speaker 1: and he kept the heart and he kept the love story.
Speaker 1: It was. It was as funny as anything needed to be.
Speaker 1: It looked great, and it just got better and better.
Speaker 1: And I was so proud of him and everyone, and
Speaker 1: you know, and and Steve Carrell. And then it was
Speaker 1: a joy for me to pop up in a couple
Speaker 1: just for fun, like I would have, like I would
Speaker 1: have in my favorite show. I did a Simpson, I
Speaker 1: did a Family Guy, I did Sesame Street, and this
Speaker 1: was like this show, but I you know, you forget
Speaker 1: that it came from an idea you had ten years before,
Speaker 1: but it was this monster and I felt flattered that
Speaker 1: they invited me to do a cameo in it. So
Speaker 1: that's how good it was that I felt flat out
Speaker 1: that I was invited to be in this show. That's
Speaker 1: how good I thought it was. Oh, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 1: I just watched last night. I had somebody sent me
Speaker 1: those two clips and you and Steve at the elevator
Speaker 1: banks doing your Chinese impression, and you know, I mean
Speaker 1: that was completely ad libbed, but but we just bumped
Speaker 1: into and I just thought, because it was the time
Speaker 1: when people were thinking of you know, I think it
Speaker 1: was already out there that Steve was leaving, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: And so I dropped in this little false thing for
Speaker 1: the bands where I said, any jobs going And I
Speaker 1: just thought that was a fuddy little tease. You. I mean,
Speaker 1: your show started with the idea of redundancy, right, and
Speaker 1: then in the American version, it really went on unlike
Speaker 1: anything that was happening in American television, like dealing with
Speaker 1: serious issues like race, homosexuality, healthcare, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And as we talked about before, like that that UNPEC
Speaker 1: or the the woke culture as they call it now,
Speaker 1: well exactly. But you know the thing is that again,
Speaker 1: it's important that people know that the difference between the
Speaker 1: subjects of a joke and the actual target, and the
Speaker 1: target was actually people pretending to be all those good
Speaker 1: things but not quite getting it right. We were taking
Speaker 1: the stab of this this false notion of just pretending
Speaker 1: to have like equality and fairness but not really. And
Speaker 1: you know, we did it to a certain extent in
Speaker 1: our version. And certainly David Frent, you know, was was
Speaker 1: fascinated with with difference and he was had that terrible
Speaker 1: white middle class anchored about anyone thinking he was sexist
Speaker 1: or racist, and so he overcompensated. He was basically a
Speaker 1: good person, but he overcompensated. He panics around different you know,
Speaker 1: around disability or color or anything like that. So that
Speaker 1: was funny because and we're we're laughing. We're laughing at
Speaker 1: that white ant. That's what we're laughing at. And of
Speaker 1: course people getting it wrong. You know, he's funny because
Speaker 1: he's getting it wrong. He's trying to do the right thing,
Speaker 1: but he's not a quick he's not a quick to
Speaker 1: do it. Yes. Yeah, one thing someone told me recently,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're aware of this. You know, American
Speaker 1: television was basically every show was set up with a
Speaker 1: love story, right here are the lovers. It's you know,
Speaker 1: a will they won't they or a married couple, and
Speaker 1: then you have kind of the wacky boss or the
Speaker 1: wacky uncle who comes in for you know, ninety seconds
Speaker 1: of the show, makes people laugh and then he goes
Speaker 1: away again. But what your show did was you inverted
Speaker 1: it right. You made the wacky boss the central figure
Speaker 1: of the show, which meant you had to care about him,
Speaker 1: because before who cares what the wacky boss or the
Speaker 1: wacky uncle is thinking. But you put him central, and
Speaker 1: you put the love story in the corner, but you
Speaker 1: make that just as important. But it makes people want
Speaker 1: to lean in and and watch. That's exactly right. I
Speaker 1: said once that people tune in for David Brent, but
Speaker 1: they stayed for Tim and Dawn because there's a will
Speaker 1: they won't. You've got to stick around. You've got to
Speaker 1: see the result with that. It is something you want,
Speaker 1: and that's an emotional connection which is stronger than just gags.
Speaker 1: And I see it in all forms of comedy. I
Speaker 1: see it in stand up. You know, you you can't
Speaker 1: go and see someone who just tells a hundred killer
Speaker 1: jokes and they're great, but after about fifty you're looking
Speaker 1: at your watch and there's no reason to stay, and
Speaker 1: you could pause, and you could, you know, but someone
Speaker 1: shambles out and they tell you a story about the
Speaker 1: day they've had, and you're related. You can't leave. You
Speaker 1: want to know what happened. And I think that's what
Speaker 1: the Love Story did, because we wanted to see if
Speaker 1: they got together, and I tried it a certain amount
Speaker 1: with them, you know, brenth development, because I think people
Speaker 1: eventually wanted him to be happy, because I like the
Speaker 1: fact that people thought it was just awful with no
Speaker 1: redeeming features. But then you see that he's wounded too,
Speaker 1: and he's looking for love, and he's not a bad person.
Speaker 1: He's just been doubt a bad hand, and you know,
Speaker 1: he made the mistake. He thought things like being on
Speaker 1: Telly would make him feel better, and you know, he
Speaker 1: thought that popularity was as good as respect. It's just
Speaker 1: been lied to, really by television. And I think people
Speaker 1: saw that in the end, and they saw that actually
Speaker 1: he wasn't he wasn't that bad a bloke. He was
Speaker 1: all right, and everyone's wounded, everyone's looking for love, everyone
Speaker 1: needs a hug. And I'm glad that eventually been thought
Speaker 1: of him fondly. Yeah, it's it's crazy. This is just
Speaker 1: occurring to me now. So maybe this is a stupid idea,
Speaker 1: but you know, you talk about him just wanting fame
Speaker 1: and being you know, in the family of say a
Speaker 1: Big Big Brother contestant. But in a way, David Brent
Speaker 1: actually had more reality right than than a real person
Speaker 1: on one of those shows, because you eventually got to
Speaker 1: see the inside of David Brent and those guys on
Speaker 1: Big Brother. You don't ever see the inside, no you don't.
Speaker 1: And also what happened with something like Big Brother is
Speaker 1: it started off like a quite a good social experiment
Speaker 1: where no one really knew how they were going to
Speaker 1: come across, not even the producers, and there was real drama.
Speaker 1: Then they started contriving it. Then they started putting in,
Speaker 1: as I said, people who were willing, they were already
Speaker 1: at their lowest there. They had nothing to lose, they
Speaker 1: had no dignity to lose, so it wasn't even particularly interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, when a load of feral people are happy
Speaker 1: to run around and fight each other and take their
Speaker 1: clothes off, you think, well, what are we watching this ball?
Speaker 1: Where's the conflict? They're happy with that, there's no just
Speaker 1: see what I'm saying, there's no there's no human interest
Speaker 1: story because it's like they don't care about themselves. They
Speaker 1: know what's happening. They've gone in there to get fIF
Speaker 1: demons to pay cash in on it, sell their story
Speaker 1: to the paper, and buy a house, and good luck
Speaker 1: to them. But I don't know why that it was
Speaker 1: no longer entertaining because it wasn't real. It's strangely reality,
Speaker 1: as you said, reality TV became less real than than
Speaker 1: a well scripted drama about reality, and so you know,
Speaker 1: that's what happened. I think over that time, what are
Speaker 1: you most proud of the legacy of the office. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's so difficult. That's so difficult to say. I'd say
Speaker 1: it was the first time I tried my harvest anything.
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that. And I got addicted to that.
Speaker 1: I was sort of this guy that would cruise around
Speaker 1: and I did well at school because I was smart,
Speaker 1: and it was almost like I wore it like a
Speaker 1: badge of honor. I didn't need to try hard. And
Speaker 1: I realized that that's not a good attitude. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, and then I tried to become a pop
Speaker 1: star and failed miserably. And my mistake was wanting to
Speaker 1: be a pop star, and I should have wanted to
Speaker 1: be a songwriter. And so when I came to this
Speaker 1: later in life, I thought, I want to be a writer, director.
Speaker 1: I want to be famous for something. If if fame,
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be an actor and be famous,
Speaker 1: I'd better be famous for something. I better do something
Speaker 1: I'm proud of. And right in the office I knew
Speaker 1: at the time, and I knew in retrospect that that
Speaker 1: was the first time I had really tried my harvest
Speaker 1: at anything, and it was a great feeling. And I
Speaker 1: don't think you can have success without hard work. You know,
Speaker 1: if he didn't work hard, it loses a bit of
Speaker 1: its success. So that's what I'm proud is held trying
Speaker 1: my harvest. Well, it's uh, I mean, you know, look
Speaker 1: at everybody who was involved in the American version owes
Speaker 1: everything to you, you know, working your hardest on something. Um,
Speaker 1: I'll just ask you one more thing that that at
Speaker 1: the end of the American Office, it ends to talking
Speaker 1: head by the character of Pam, and she is talking
Speaker 1: about you know, she thought it was weird that people
Speaker 1: who work in a paper company would be the subject
Speaker 1: of a documentary, like why would anyone want to watch us?
Speaker 1: But she said, you know, in retrospect, she feels like
Speaker 1: that they were a really good subject for documentary because
Speaker 1: there's there's beauty and ordinary things, and isn't that kind
Speaker 1: of isn't that kind of the point? And that was
Speaker 1: what Greg's perspective was. That's exactly right. I always been
Speaker 1: fascinated with trying to make the ordinary extraordinary, just trying
Speaker 1: to take a tiny little story that you wouldn't think
Speaker 1: anyone's interested in, and and making people interested in it.
Speaker 1: And I remember when I was at school, I used
Speaker 1: to write and my teachers say, yeah, it's a bit melodramatic.
Speaker 1: And I realized that I was taking it from Telly
Speaker 1: and films and and he kept going a bit more dramatic, right,
Speaker 1: And this really annoyed me. So I decided to try
Speaker 1: and do the most boring story I could, right, just
Speaker 1: to annoy my teacher. I was like thirteen, And so
Speaker 1: what I did was my mom used to look after
Speaker 1: this old lady who lived near us, and when I
Speaker 1: was born, i'd go around, I'd watched my mom sort
Speaker 1: of make a tea and clean up and that, and
Speaker 1: it was boring for a kid, and I thought, I
Speaker 1: know what I do. I'll write about that, right this
Speaker 1: teature a lesson and I remember just writing exactly what
Speaker 1: was happening, and I handed it in and I've got
Speaker 1: it back and the teacher had given me an aid
Speaker 1: and said much better, and I almost didn't get it.
Speaker 1: I did. I did hum because I think he knew
Speaker 1: what I was doing, but he also knew what I
Speaker 1: was saying was the truth and that I I've done
Speaker 1: it from real life as opposed to a top show
Speaker 1: on Telly, Do you know what I mean? And then
Speaker 1: I was gonna realize that ordinary life is the most
Speaker 1: fascinating thing we have. Everyone's life is fascinating to them
Speaker 1: and and if you look into it, it can be
Speaker 1: fascinating to everyone because it's it's unique and real and
Speaker 1: it happened and it was a life, and I think
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. And then you know, I've taken that on
Speaker 1: my new series Afterlife. It's about the mundane things in life,
Speaker 1: you know, saving you there this factions and it's true,
Speaker 1: it's just true. Everyone thinks that you know what their
Speaker 1: their lives a bit boring and mundane. But it's not.
Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating. Well, I was not going to be
Speaker 1: overly nice to you until the very end, but your
Speaker 1: ability through all of your shows, obviously, and you as
Speaker 1: a person, your ability to find that humanity in people
Speaker 1: that you do not expect to be likable, is a
Speaker 1: great gift that you know you've given everyone. Blah blah.
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound too nice, but you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I love it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: That's that is. That's lovely. Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Yes, and good luck with afterlife.
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to watch it, and thank you man,
Speaker 1: and enjoy a drink on me tonight. I'm going to
Speaker 1: have one now. I'm sure some of the residuals that
Speaker 1: that we made. It just just something that we pay. Okay,
Speaker 1: there nothing but the greatest champagne we day on top.
Speaker 1: All right, thanks mam, all right, cheers, all right, bye
Speaker 1: bye bye. That is a rap on Ricky Gervais. Ricky,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. I hope it
Speaker 1: was worth your time, if for no other reason than
Speaker 1: to find out that Steve never won an Emmy I'm
Speaker 1: very pleased that I could provide that level of joy
Speaker 1: for you. To the rest of you as always, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me, and don't forget to
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Office Deep Dive on your podcast app.
Speaker 1: Do your so that you and I can keep well
Speaker 1: diving deeper. I hope you have a great day and
Speaker 1: I will see you again next week. The Office Deep
Speaker 1: Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
Speaker 1: our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Speaker 1: Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Speaker 1: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
Speaker 1: friend Creeve Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olansky.