1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: I I'm Rick Devised. You probably know me from the 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: UK version of the Office, or the Office as we 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: call it in the UK. Hello, and welcome back to 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: the Office deep Dive. I am your host Brian Baumgartner. 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: Today you will get to listen to my conversation with 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: the one and only one of my comedy heroes, Ricky Gervais. 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: Ricky was the co creator of the British version of 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: the Office along with Stephen Merchant, who we spoke to 9 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: last week, and Ricky, in addition to creating the show, 10 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: also played David Brent, the British counterpart and the inspiration 11 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: for Michael Scott, who was somehow possibly even more cringe 12 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: e than Michael was. I didn't think it was possible either, 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: but only Ricky himself could pull that off. Now, obviously, 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: Ricky is a very, very busy man, and when I 15 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: interviewed him, he was doing a ton of press for 16 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: another show he created called Afterlife, which I am obsessed 17 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 1: with that show. I absolutely love it. Everyone. You should 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: go and watch it if you haven't um. But Ricky 19 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: was doing so many TV appearances at the time that 20 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: when I spoke to him, he thought that this was 21 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: another video interview, which it was not. So here I am, 22 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm lounging in I'm in my sweatpants, and Ricky is 23 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: looking sharp, he's looking camera ready, he's looking Gervais sexy, 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: is how I like to call it. Um, So just 25 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: keep that image in your head as you listen. Um. Anyway, 26 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: I am totally psyched that I got a chance to 27 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: talk to him, and I so appreciate him making the 28 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: time for us. So sit back, relax and enjoy the 29 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: incomparable Ricky Gervais. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble 30 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month, left 31 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: over from the night before. Um, do you know what 32 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: we're doing here? Isn't a podcast about the history of 33 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: the Yeah? So, like the ten second version is basically 34 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: the Office American version since two thousand seventeen, it's the 35 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: number one streaming show in the world. It has over 36 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty five billion minutes that have been 37 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: stre stream in essentially two years. And so what we're 38 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: doing is going back and trying to figure out why 39 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: this has happened. Um. Yeah, Well, I mean it's a 40 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: testament to all the hard work, hard work that went 41 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: into it, and the rioting and the acting, the fact 42 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: that it's about everyday people and about everything exactly. All right, 43 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm just going to start at the beginning and I'll 44 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: ask you questions. So what were the what were the 45 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: influences that had you and you know, Stephen talked to 46 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: me a little bit about you know, how you guys 47 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: got to know each other and you hired him as 48 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: as your assistant the radio station. Well, what were some 49 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: of the influences that you guys had. Well, it goes 50 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: back before that, It goes back before that. I had 51 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 1: David Frient as a character. Um, you know a few 52 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: years before that. In fact, I worked in an office 53 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: for like ten years, and obviously that's the biggest influence 54 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: real life, being part of it of a working office, 55 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: and you know, you start noticing that the fact that 56 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: you're thrown together with random people and you have to 57 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: get along. So you know, that was one theme. Um. 58 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: Coupled with that. Throughout the nineties, I watched a lot 59 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: of those docu soaps that were happening here where ordinary 60 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: people got their fifteen minutes of fame. Um. There was 61 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: one called Airline and Airport, and you know, all that, 62 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, the hotel, and sort of they'd make celebrities 63 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: out of these normal people because they were just ordinary people. 64 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: But they were funny and at work and and of 65 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: course now fames a different beasts. Now they'd get an 66 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: agent and they try and get their own game show 67 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: and make the most of it, and you know, but 68 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: then it was sort of it was they were quite quaint. 69 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: But I did notice that people started to be obsessed 70 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: with fame in the nineties, and of course that's just 71 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: got worse and worse, worse, and and it sort of 72 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: eats itself. So those are the those are the sort 73 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: of big things, an ordinary person getting his one shot 74 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: of fame, wanting to be famous. You know, if you 75 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 1: take away that it was a fake documentary, it doesn't 76 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: make much sense because you say, well, why is David 77 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: Brent acting like that? Oh, he wants to be famous, 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: he wants to be discovered, he wants to be loved, 79 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: he needs to hug you know. So so it was 80 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: a bit it was a we weren't spoofing the genre, 81 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: but the fact that it was meant to be a documentary. 82 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: You know, it's fifty of the show before you start 83 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: writing the sitcom and um, so how much how much 84 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: of the comedy comes from it being a documentary. Well, 85 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: you've got to believe this is a real person who 86 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: wants to be famous. So you've got to really believe that. 87 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: Um your eavesdropping almost you're you're looking on someone's life. 88 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: Because if you start thinking about you know it's it's written, 89 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: anything can happen. So you have to try and make 90 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: the ordinary extraordinary. And once you realize that David Brent 91 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: just wants to be discovered and become famous and needs 92 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: to hug it all seems to make sense really, and 93 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: from a personal point of view, I wanted it to 94 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: be a more about body language, not just acting and 95 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: saying the lines. I wanted it to be you know, 96 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: people notice things like I hated it in the drama 97 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: or comedy where someone would hang up the phone and 98 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: then talk to themselves, you know, like go mm hm, 99 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: he doesn't usually call on a Tuesday. They had to 100 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: find a way of showing someone was worried or lying, 101 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: and you know you do that by the guy sort 102 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: of not looking at you and then flicking his eyes 103 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: at the camera, or you know, you had to somehow 104 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: act like you would if you were being filmed and 105 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: being caught out, and so there was there was lots 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: of reminders that this was a fake documentary because otherwise 107 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: it just wasn't that special or interesting. It's that there'd 108 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: be no reason to be making, you know, a sitcom 109 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: where these people were acting like that, unless it was 110 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: because one of them sort of wanting to be discovered 111 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: and famous. So it really was about you know, TV 112 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: in itself. It was about people, the beginning of this 113 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: new narcisism, this beginning of people doing anything, you know, 114 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: living their life like an open wound, just doing anything, 115 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: and and that was the beginning of bad behavior being rewarded. 116 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: You know, as soon as we people thought, well I 117 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: made it. I made an absolute proud of myself on television. 118 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: But they've invited me on a new program to talk 119 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: about it. You know, it's okay. And then people start, 120 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: you know with people that would break the law and 121 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: then write a book, you know. So that was the 122 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: ninth is. I saw that a lot. But apart from that, 123 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: it was it was still about people. It was still 124 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: about people being randomly thrown together and getting along, you know, 125 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: and and conflict. But that the fact that it was 126 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: a fag documentary, and one person in particular wanted to 127 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: come out of this famous because he was looking for something. 128 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: He was searching for something, you know. That was a 129 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: very very big part of it. Yeah, it's interesting you 130 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: talk about behavior, right, and that so much of the 131 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: comedy comes from that. Greg Daniels shared with me that 132 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: he would send his writers down to the set to 133 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: just observe the actors because you can't write people's behavior, 134 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: you can't write their body posture, you can't write that stuff. 135 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: And so to really observe, for the writers on the 136 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: American Office, to actually observe the actors and the characters 137 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: in their setting, because so much of the humor came 138 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: from that. Yeah, and that's because obviously, in realize, so 139 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: much communication is non verbal. You know, just someone being, 140 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: as I said, someone lying, they don't look at you, 141 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: They touched their face. They when they're nervous, they touched 142 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: their own head. You know. Brent kept fiddling with his tie. 143 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: He wasn't quite comfortable being in charge. The way he 144 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: convulsed and giggled to show that he wanted to be 145 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: one of the gangs. And you know, you're you're right 146 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: that if we hadn't shot a little pilot showing the character. 147 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: It was like a couple of years before we did 148 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: the actual thing. I went back to the office I 149 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: used to work in, and I had like friends who 150 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: still worked there, but I we used as extras, so 151 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: it looked very hyper real. But they also like to 152 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: see what I meant if I have said, oh, this 153 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: is a character. He's quite boring, really and quite desperate 154 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: to be loved. He doesn't say anything funny, he screws 155 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: up jokes in and when he makes a joke, no 156 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: one laughs. And then he touched his tie and looked 157 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: at the camera. They think, what is this? You know, 158 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: it just doesn't jump off the page. It was it 159 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: was a performance piece. Initially it was it was about 160 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: behavior and about a man who was doing stuff to 161 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: be loved and famous, and deep down he wanted to 162 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: be popular and he thought being famous would that would 163 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: be a short cut to it. And you know, he 164 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: he threw everything. You know, he wanted to be a 165 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: philosopher and a teacher. He wanted to be cool, he 166 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: wanted to be sexy, he wanted to be funny, he 167 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: wanted to be all those things that he wasn't quite 168 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: And that is comedy. It's most basic, particularly in sitcom. 169 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: A sitcom is about an average guy or gal and 170 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: an average person who's trying to do something they're not 171 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: equipped to do. And that's what we're laughing at the 172 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: blind Spot. So I just made David brent so about 173 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: the blind Spot. But it was so it was so 174 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: obvious and cringe e what we were trying to say 175 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,479 Speaker 1: with this man. He was delusional, And that in itself 176 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: was about people who wanted to be famous. Because in 177 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: the nineties there were people, as I said, there were 178 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: these people that in you know, quaint docu soaps, just 179 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: getting on with their life and being discovered and having 180 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: their fifteen minutes and that was it. But then all 181 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: these talent shows started and how many times have you 182 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: seen people on the talent show crying, going, please, I 183 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: just want this, vote for me, I just want this. 184 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: You want to go, well, what's that got to do 185 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: with me? Why you what? What's that got to do 186 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: with us? What? What a we care? Whether you want 187 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: to be famous just because you want it, Well, what 188 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: are you going to do for it? What? What have you? Whatever? 189 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: Have you put in? You know? And then It wasn't 190 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: even talent shows. Then it was just people and being 191 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: famous for being famous and doing anything to be famous, 192 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: you know, or being a housewife, I said, being a housewife, right, 193 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: like suddenly being a housewife Beverly Hills or whatever, like yeah, 194 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: it's yeah exactly, but but just just people, you know. 195 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: And then it got to be that the producers are 196 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: in on it. People would say, let me go in, 197 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: big Brother, and I promise our cause trouble, start a fight, 198 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: to take my clothes off, and the producers said, okay, 199 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: you're in. It was these It was honestly, it was 200 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: these contrived things people. You know, you watch shows like 201 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: The Apprentice, and these people they say anything to get 202 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: on with the blessing of the producer that wants to 203 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: see conflict, you know, are going there, I'll put the 204 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: cat among the pigeons. I'm a man who will steamroller 205 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: anyone who gets in my way. I say what I think, 206 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: I ruck all feathers, and the producers are going, well, great, 207 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: let's do it. Yeah, let's let's and and suddenly there 208 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: was there was this culture of misbehavior that was being rewarded. 209 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: But I think that it was just the start of it. 210 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: When I came with David Brent, it was just you know, 211 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: and as I say, he was mainly before television, before docusents, 212 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: he was mainly just a Frankenstein of those guys you 213 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: meet growing up. You know, your elders who should know better, 214 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: your teachers who sometimes embarrass themselves, your first boss who 215 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: was an idiot, and it's it's someone behaving when they 216 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: should know better. And that's why it was important that 217 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: he was the boss, really because if he weren't the boss, 218 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: he could be an idiot. And sometimes sitcoms made the difference, 219 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, the mistake of they they got that right 220 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: and then they went on holiday, and on holiday it 221 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: doesn't matter to much because people can behave badly on holiday. 222 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: So you need that restriction, you need that authority that 223 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: he's undermining. You know, it has to be someone who 224 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: shouldn't be behaving like this because they should be a 225 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: role model and they should know better. So all those 226 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: things were put in the mix. And the big theme 227 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: of it as well was uh, men as boys and 228 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: women has grown ups because there was also a PC 229 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: culture that I saw come in where people were taught 230 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: what to say and do, but they didn't really mean it. 231 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: So guys like him, they knew that they couldn't be 232 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: sexist upstairs because they're you know, they're get in trouble 233 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: with hr. And they talked a good talk and they 234 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: talked about sexism, misogyny and racism, but deep down they 235 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: hadn't changed and they could get away with that in 236 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: the warehouse. So Brent was caught between two worlds because 237 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: he wanted to be loved by everyone. He wanted to 238 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: be a lad downstairs with a warehouse, but then he 239 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: had to behave properly in front of his boss. So 240 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: it was a man who was caught. He was caught 241 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: between two worlds. He wanted to say terrible things, but 242 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: the camera was rolling. He wanted to be one of 243 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: the guys, but his boss was watching. So this was 244 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: a man who wasn't comfortable with himself because he wasn't 245 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: being honest with himself. He it wasn't being honest because 246 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: he didn't He just wanted a hand out of business 247 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: cards that said, great bloke, just laugh at my jokes. 248 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: But life isn't that easy. Do you remember the first 249 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: time you met Ben Silverman, Yes I do. I was 250 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: walking down the street in London. I think I was 251 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: going to see my agent, and the phone rang um 252 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: and he said, Hi, it's Ben Silverman. You don't know me. 253 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: I wanna I want to remake the Office for America. 254 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: And I went, okay, all right, he said, can we 255 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: beat up? He said, I mean town. I went right. 256 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: He said, where are you? I'll come to you. I've 257 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: jumped the cab. I went okay, and I looked up 258 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: and I said, right and right outside Starbucks in ward 259 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: Or Street and he went, wait there, I'll be there 260 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: in fifty minutes, and he jumped in a cab. He 261 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: got I've never met anyone like him. He came and 262 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: found me because obviously knew what he looked like because 263 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: he'd watched the Office. And he talked to me and 264 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: I said, well, listen, let me introduce you to my 265 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: agent to get the ball rolling. And I took him 266 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: in to see Duncan Hayes as my UK still is 267 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: my UK agent, and that's and that was the beginning 268 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: of it. And then I can't remember all the details 269 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: or all the phone calls, but I think the next 270 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: big step was we sort of auditions show runners and 271 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: we saw some amazing ones from my favorite programs of 272 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: all time. We we chose Greg, and I think we 273 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: chose Greg not just because of his body as work, 274 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: which was as good as anyone's, and he was a 275 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: nice chat but I think I think it was because 276 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: he was the only one that brought up that he thought. 277 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: It was a love story that was very important to me, 278 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: the love story. So you know, I didn't want to 279 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: I never thought of it was, you know, just the sitcom. 280 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, you traditionally sitcoms were, as I say, an 281 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: ordinary guy getting into Caper's and then you know, back 282 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: at Square one, and there wasn't there wasn't really romance. 283 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: But you know, we stole that from America because you know, 284 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: and movies, because you know, there was always a love 285 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: interest in movies and a lot of Americans shows had 286 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: more romance and love interests than than ours. It was 287 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: usually about a grumpy, middle aged man, so we we 288 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: like that. And then I can't remember what all of 289 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: this this was in, but I think it was the 290 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: Golden Globes where we won to the Office and I 291 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: won Best Comedy Actor. I think that was the same 292 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: week that we went to Ben Silverman's office and I 293 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: don't know it before and after, but then Ben and 294 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: Greg came to London. At that I think that was 295 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: nearer the time when we were very getting very close 296 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: to actually start in production, and we worked out the translation, 297 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: what was slow in America, you know, what was the 298 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: equivalent of this, and what was the equivalent of that? 299 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: And do we have this and what we almost did 300 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: like a blueprint to you know, just americanizing stuff, and 301 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: then we started. Then we started auditions and and that 302 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: was it. I do remember at one point, I think 303 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: before or auditions, or when we were thinking of looking 304 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: for you know, that David Ben and I think Ben 305 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: Silverman called me and said, why don't you playing? And 306 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: I said, well, what were the point of that? I 307 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: did my bed. Now I want to rest. Now I 308 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: want some I want some other schmuck to do a 309 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: two episodes. But mainly my real apart from the fact 310 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: that I was lazy and I was terrified of being 311 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: working hard for seven years, I said, no, this should 312 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: be this should be made by Americans for Americans. And 313 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: I was flattered that they even let us being involved 314 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: as we were. But you know, it really took off 315 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: when they started making their own show. Is. The first 316 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: episode was basically a remake, but then it just got 317 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: further and further away, and you know, by the end, 318 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: it yeah, it was. It was its own show. And 319 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: I remember that people were scared because The Office was 320 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: such a media darling, you know, to a few Americans, 321 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: even its peak. I remember the Office in America, the 322 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: our version. I remember it was the biggest show on 323 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: BBC America and it had something like one point one million, 324 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: and Ben Dield was saying, listen, there's a lot of 325 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: people that haven't seen this that won't be prejudiced. But 326 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: of course, I remember he was worried about the press 327 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: saying this is a you know this, we love the original, 328 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: um and he came up with a really good thing. 329 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: When they were saying, why would you do a remake 330 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: of this that the original was perfect, he said, well, 331 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: why I wouldn't. I wouldn't make the film of a 332 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: shitty novel. I'd make a film of the best novel 333 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: I could find. And I thought that was such a 334 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: clever counter. But of course we want to remake of 335 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: something that's really good. At what we do a remake 336 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: of something that was terrible, And then soon, you know, 337 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: people forgot that there was original. Some people don't even 338 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: know there's an original to most Americans that they have 339 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: no idea that this is a remake, and they don't care. 340 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: And you know, and I imagine most people who love 341 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: the American Office they prefer it to the British version. 342 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: So and which is a great position to be in 343 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: for me. I remember once it was after syndication and someone, 344 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: someone on Twitter sent me a tweet that said, the 345 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: American version of the Office is so much bigger and 346 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: better than yours. How does that make you feel? And 347 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: I sent back, fucking rich exactly. I don't think you 348 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: had any problem with the success of the American version 349 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: of the Office. No, I was, you know. But I 350 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: remember also early days, it was an okay start. It 351 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: was a new sitcom. I mean it was on network TV, 352 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: so it was already audacious, was pretty out there, and 353 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: the ratings were not good. It was a bit spiky 354 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: and different, and and I think it struggled, and I 355 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: think we got they deferred people's wages too, so it 356 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: could keep going, and and you know, people really pulled 357 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: together to try and get this going. And then I 358 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: think that there was two big breaks as I remember 359 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: one was they discovered that it was watched by the 360 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: right demographic for advertising, even though it was only getting 361 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: a few millions. I think it was the highest percentage 362 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: of people earning over a hundred thousand dollars. I think 363 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: it was second to Win and Grace, And so advertisers 364 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: loved it, and so the channel loved it. So there 365 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: was all that behind the theme things going on. And 366 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: then Steve Kral became a huge film star, so it 367 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: took off. It just and then it grew and grew 368 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: and grew and got bigger and bigger, and it's still 369 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: getting bigger and bigger. It's remarkable. Remarkable. Yeah. One of 370 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: my favorite Emmy moments of all time was the bit 371 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: you did with Steve Correll. What do you think about 372 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: the fact that he never won an Emmy? Didn't he 373 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: never How many did he get nothinated for? He must 374 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: he got nominated every year. He probably got six or seven, 375 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: but he never won. Wow. Wow, oh in your face, 376 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: Steve Carrell? Um? Wow? So was I up against him? Then? 377 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: When I won I won an Emmy for my before 378 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: it's an extra and I wasn't there. And that's the 379 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: one where John Stewart gave it to Steve. Yes, oh 380 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: so one of them was my fault that you didn't win. 381 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: Now I feel bad. Yeah, that was funny that bit. 382 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: I just I bumped into him on the red carpet 383 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: and said, I've got an idea if you could that. Um, 384 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to come and get my only back and 385 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: you've stolen it. And he just went, do whatever you want. 386 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: And he just played it so so deadpalent and so 387 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: great and it was just lovely when he bent down 388 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: and gave it back to me. He's great, I think. 389 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: I you know, I have said this many times an interview, 390 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: never to his face. I always wind him up in public, 391 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: obviously that's my job. But he is such a brilliant, 392 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: hard working, conscientious, it's just a lovely man who it's great. 393 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: He's so versat up And then we got to see 394 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: him that he was a dramatic actor after all this 395 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: was over. I mean, we really we really lucked out 396 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: when we got Steve Corral for being our sitcom, didn't we. Yeah, 397 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: he's one of the best. Yeah, because you know he 398 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: can be you know, he can be snide and rude 399 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: and unaware and somehow you still have that feeling where 400 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: you you just want to love him. I know, I 401 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: know it is. Yeah, he's some, he's remarkable, but I 402 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: still beat him at the ends. Let's not forget that. 403 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: Oh dear, um, were you pleased with how Greg Daniels 404 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: adapted the show? I thought it was great. I just 405 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: thought it was great, how dense it was, how fast 406 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 1: everything was, how many plot lines, and how written it was. 407 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I know there was, you know, a lot 408 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: more writers, but I just thought he held it together 409 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: and he kept the heart and he kept the love story. 410 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: It was. It was as funny as anything needed to be. 411 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: It looked great, and it just got better and better. 412 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: And I was so proud of him and everyone, and 413 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, and and Steve Carrell. And then it was 414 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: a joy for me to pop up in a couple 415 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: just for fun, like I would have, like I would 416 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: have in my favorite show. I did a Simpson, I 417 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: did a Family Guy, I did Sesame Street, and this 418 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: was like this show, but I you know, you forget 419 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: that it came from an idea you had ten years before, 420 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: but it was this monster and I felt flattered that 421 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: they invited me to do a cameo in it. So 422 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: that's how good it was that I felt flat out 423 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: that I was invited to be in this show. That's 424 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: how good I thought it was. Oh, that's that's crazy. 425 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: I just watched last night. I had somebody sent me 426 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: those two clips and you and Steve at the elevator 427 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: banks doing your Chinese impression, and you know, I mean 428 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: that was completely ad libbed, but but we just bumped 429 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: into and I just thought, because it was the time 430 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: when people were thinking of you know, I think it 431 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: was already out there that Steve was leaving, wasn't it. 432 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: And so I dropped in this little false thing for 433 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: the bands where I said, any jobs going And I 434 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: just thought that was a fuddy little tease. You. I mean, 435 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: your show started with the idea of redundancy, right, and 436 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: then in the American version, it really went on unlike 437 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: anything that was happening in American television, like dealing with 438 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: serious issues like race, homosexuality, healthcare, you know, et cetera. 439 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: And as we talked about before, like that that UNPEC 440 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: or the the woke culture as they call it now, 441 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: well exactly. But you know the thing is that again, 442 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: it's important that people know that the difference between the 443 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: subjects of a joke and the actual target, and the 444 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: target was actually people pretending to be all those good 445 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: things but not quite getting it right. We were taking 446 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: the stab of this this false notion of just pretending 447 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: to have like equality and fairness but not really. And 448 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, we did it to a certain extent in 449 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: our version. And certainly David Frent, you know, was was 450 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: fascinated with with difference and he was had that terrible 451 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: white middle class anchored about anyone thinking he was sexist 452 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: or racist, and so he overcompensated. He was basically a 453 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: good person, but he overcompensated. He panics around different you know, 454 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: around disability or color or anything like that. So that 455 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: was funny because and we're we're laughing. We're laughing at 456 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: that white ant. That's what we're laughing at. And of 457 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: course people getting it wrong. You know, he's funny because 458 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: he's getting it wrong. He's trying to do the right thing, 459 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: but he's not a quick he's not a quick to 460 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: do it. Yes. Yeah, one thing someone told me recently, 461 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're aware of this. You know, American 462 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: television was basically every show was set up with a 463 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: love story, right here are the lovers. It's you know, 464 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: a will they won't they or a married couple, and 465 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: then you have kind of the wacky boss or the 466 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: wacky uncle who comes in for you know, ninety seconds 467 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: of the show, makes people laugh and then he goes 468 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: away again. But what your show did was you inverted 469 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: it right. You made the wacky boss the central figure 470 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: of the show, which meant you had to care about him, 471 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: because before who cares what the wacky boss or the 472 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: wacky uncle is thinking. But you put him central, and 473 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: you put the love story in the corner, but you 474 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: make that just as important. But it makes people want 475 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: to lean in and and watch. That's exactly right. I 476 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: said once that people tune in for David Brent, but 477 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: they stayed for Tim and Dawn because there's a will 478 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: they won't. You've got to stick around. You've got to 479 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: see the result with that. It is something you want, 480 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: and that's an emotional connection which is stronger than just gags. 481 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: And I see it in all forms of comedy. I 482 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: see it in stand up. You know, you you can't 483 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: go and see someone who just tells a hundred killer 484 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: jokes and they're great, but after about fifty you're looking 485 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: at your watch and there's no reason to stay, and 486 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: you could pause, and you could, you know, but someone 487 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: shambles out and they tell you a story about the 488 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: day they've had, and you're related. You can't leave. You 489 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: want to know what happened. And I think that's what 490 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: the Love Story did, because we wanted to see if 491 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: they got together, and I tried it a certain amount 492 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: with them, you know, brenth development, because I think people 493 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: eventually wanted him to be happy, because I like the 494 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: fact that people thought it was just awful with no 495 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: redeeming features. But then you see that he's wounded too, 496 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: and he's looking for love, and he's not a bad person. 497 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: He's just been doubt a bad hand, and you know, 498 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: he made the mistake. He thought things like being on 499 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: Telly would make him feel better, and you know, he 500 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: thought that popularity was as good as respect. It's just 501 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: been lied to, really by television. And I think people 502 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: saw that in the end, and they saw that actually 503 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: he wasn't he wasn't that bad a bloke. He was 504 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: all right, and everyone's wounded, everyone's looking for love, everyone 505 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: needs a hug. And I'm glad that eventually been thought 506 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: of him fondly. Yeah, it's it's crazy. This is just 507 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: occurring to me now. So maybe this is a stupid idea, 508 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: but you know, you talk about him just wanting fame 509 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: and being you know, in the family of say a 510 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: Big Big Brother contestant. But in a way, David Brent 511 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: actually had more reality right than than a real person 512 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: on one of those shows, because you eventually got to 513 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: see the inside of David Brent and those guys on 514 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: Big Brother. You don't ever see the inside, no you don't. 515 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: And also what happened with something like Big Brother is 516 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: it started off like a quite a good social experiment 517 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: where no one really knew how they were going to 518 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: come across, not even the producers, and there was real drama. 519 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: Then they started contriving it. Then they started putting in, 520 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: as I said, people who were willing, they were already 521 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: at their lowest there. They had nothing to lose, they 522 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: had no dignity to lose, so it wasn't even particularly interesting. 523 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: You know, when a load of feral people are happy 524 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: to run around and fight each other and take their 525 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: clothes off, you think, well, what are we watching this ball? 526 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: Where's the conflict? They're happy with that, there's no just 527 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: see what I'm saying, there's no there's no human interest 528 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: story because it's like they don't care about themselves. They 529 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: know what's happening. They've gone in there to get fIF 530 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: demons to pay cash in on it, sell their story 531 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: to the paper, and buy a house, and good luck 532 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: to them. But I don't know why that it was 533 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: no longer entertaining because it wasn't real. It's strangely reality, 534 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: as you said, reality TV became less real than than 535 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: a well scripted drama about reality, and so you know, 536 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: that's what happened. I think over that time, what are 537 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: you most proud of the legacy of the office. Oh, 538 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: that's so difficult. That's so difficult to say. I'd say 539 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: it was the first time I tried my harvest anything. 540 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that. And I got addicted to that. 541 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: I was sort of this guy that would cruise around 542 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: and I did well at school because I was smart, 543 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: and it was almost like I wore it like a 544 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: badge of honor. I didn't need to try hard. And 545 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: I realized that that's not a good attitude. And then, 546 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: you know, and then I tried to become a pop 547 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: star and failed miserably. And my mistake was wanting to 548 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: be a pop star, and I should have wanted to 549 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: be a songwriter. And so when I came to this 550 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: later in life, I thought, I want to be a writer, director. 551 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: I want to be famous for something. If if fame, 552 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: if I'm going to be an actor and be famous, 553 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: I'd better be famous for something. I better do something 554 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm proud of. And right in the office I knew 555 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: at the time, and I knew in retrospect that that 556 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: was the first time I had really tried my harvest 557 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: at anything, and it was a great feeling. And I 558 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: don't think you can have success without hard work. You know, 559 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: if he didn't work hard, it loses a bit of 560 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: its success. So that's what I'm proud is held trying 561 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: my harvest. Well, it's uh, I mean, you know, look 562 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: at everybody who was involved in the American version owes 563 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: everything to you, you know, working your hardest on something. Um, 564 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: I'll just ask you one more thing that that at 565 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: the end of the American Office, it ends to talking 566 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: head by the character of Pam, and she is talking 567 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: about you know, she thought it was weird that people 568 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: who work in a paper company would be the subject 569 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: of a documentary, like why would anyone want to watch us? 570 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: But she said, you know, in retrospect, she feels like 571 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: that they were a really good subject for documentary because 572 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 1: there's there's beauty and ordinary things, and isn't that kind 573 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: of isn't that kind of the point? And that was 574 00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: what Greg's perspective was. That's exactly right. I always been 575 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: fascinated with trying to make the ordinary extraordinary, just trying 576 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: to take a tiny little story that you wouldn't think 577 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: anyone's interested in, and and making people interested in it. 578 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: And I remember when I was at school, I used 579 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: to write and my teachers say, yeah, it's a bit melodramatic. 580 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: And I realized that I was taking it from Telly 581 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: and films and and he kept going a bit more dramatic, right, 582 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: And this really annoyed me. So I decided to try 583 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: and do the most boring story I could, right, just 584 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: to annoy my teacher. I was like thirteen, And so 585 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: what I did was my mom used to look after 586 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: this old lady who lived near us, and when I 587 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: was born, i'd go around, I'd watched my mom sort 588 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 1: of make a tea and clean up and that, and 589 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: it was boring for a kid, and I thought, I 590 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: know what I do. I'll write about that, right this 591 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: teature a lesson and I remember just writing exactly what 592 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: was happening, and I handed it in and I've got 593 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: it back and the teacher had given me an aid 594 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: and said much better, and I almost didn't get it. 595 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: I did. I did hum because I think he knew 596 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: what I was doing, but he also knew what I 597 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: was saying was the truth and that I I've done 598 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: it from real life as opposed to a top show 599 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: on Telly, Do you know what I mean? And then 600 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 1: I was gonna realize that ordinary life is the most 601 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: fascinating thing we have. Everyone's life is fascinating to them 602 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: and and if you look into it, it can be 603 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: fascinating to everyone because it's it's unique and real and 604 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: it happened and it was a life, and I think 605 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. And then you know, I've taken that on 606 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: my new series Afterlife. It's about the mundane things in life, 607 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, saving you there this factions and it's true, 608 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: it's just true. Everyone thinks that you know what their 609 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: their lives a bit boring and mundane. But it's not. 610 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating. Well, I was not going to be 611 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: overly nice to you until the very end, but your 612 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: ability through all of your shows, obviously, and you as 613 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: a person, your ability to find that humanity in people 614 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: that you do not expect to be likable, is a 615 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: great gift that you know you've given everyone. Blah blah. 616 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to sound too nice, but you know 617 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I love it. Thank you very much. 618 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: That's that is. That's lovely. Thank you, thank you so much. 619 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Yes, and good luck with afterlife. 620 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: I cannot wait to watch it, and thank you man, 621 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: and enjoy a drink on me tonight. I'm going to 622 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: have one now. I'm sure some of the residuals that 623 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: that we made. It just just something that we pay. Okay, 624 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: there nothing but the greatest champagne we day on top. 625 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: All right, thanks mam, all right, cheers, all right, bye 626 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: bye bye. That is a rap on Ricky Gervais. Ricky, 627 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. I hope it 628 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: was worth your time, if for no other reason than 629 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: to find out that Steve never won an Emmy I'm 630 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: very pleased that I could provide that level of joy 631 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: for you. To the rest of you as always, thank 632 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me, and don't forget to 633 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: subscribe to the Office Deep Dive on your podcast app. 634 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,479 Speaker 1: Do your so that you and I can keep well 635 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: diving deeper. I hope you have a great day and 636 00:39:53,560 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: I will see you again next week. The Office Deep 637 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, 638 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, 639 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is 640 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. 641 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great 642 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: friend Creeve Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olansky.