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Speaker 1: Hello, Hurdler's Emily Abadi here bringing you episode eighty eight

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Speaker 1: of Hurdle, a podcast that talks to everyone from entrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: to top CEOs and athletes about how they've gotten through

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Speaker 1: tough times hurdles of sorts by leaning in to wellness.

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Speaker 1: Now today, I am bringing you probably one of my

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Speaker 1: top five favorite Hurdle episodes to date, Andy Putical. He

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Speaker 1: is the co founder and voice of Headspace Now. Andy

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Speaker 1: and I recorded this quite some time ago. This is

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Speaker 1: actually a repost, but it is one that I kind

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Speaker 1: of wanted to bring back to the forefront, you know,

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Speaker 1: during the holidays when everyone's a little bit out of

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Speaker 1: their regular routine. I didn't want to bring you brand,

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Speaker 1: brand new content, knowing that I've got some gems in

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Speaker 1: the pipeline, but I did want to bring you something

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Speaker 1: that I think can be really special and something that

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Speaker 1: I really value. And that's why I am re emerging

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Speaker 1: miss Pudcomb's episode. Before we get into Andy's story, a

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Speaker 1: quick shout out to my sponsors, and then I will

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Speaker 1: it up with about eight to ten ounces of water

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Speaker 1: no code necessary. Next up, given a shout out to

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Speaker 1: my sponsor, Whoop. I was trying to explain what it

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Speaker 1: is that I love about my Whoop strap to a

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Speaker 1: couple of friends earlier today when we were at Swerve

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Speaker 1: on the Upper east Side. And the fact of the

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm just taking better care of my body

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Speaker 1: in so many aspects. I'll admit yesterday, I woke up

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Speaker 1: a little under the weather after a holiday party over

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Speaker 1: the weekend, and I knew immediately that I needed to

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Speaker 1: be a little kinder to my body throughout the day,

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Speaker 1: not just because I had a lower recovery score, but

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Speaker 1: also because my sleep quality wasn't that great and my

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Speaker 1: HRV heart rate variability was down considerably. When I check

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Speaker 1: in on the Whoop app, I can see exactly what's

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Speaker 1: going on with my body, and that can encourage me

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Speaker 1: to either have some more grace as I go out

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Speaker 1: throughout the day or hype me up to take on

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Speaker 1: an intense workout because I know that my body is

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Speaker 1: prepared for the extra strain. They are offering Hurdle listeners

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Speaker 1: Hurdle at checkout for fifteen percent off any membership and

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Speaker 1: to optimize the way you train. All right, Andy, putocom

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Speaker 1: wow again. This was probably one of the most special

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Speaker 1: conversations I've had since starting the podcast. A Christmas morning

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Speaker 1: car accident was the hurdle moment that changed Andy Puducum's

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Speaker 1: life Forever. Looking to process sudden loss, he went to

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Speaker 1: Asia to study as a Buddhist monk, and after ten

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Speaker 1: years of practice, he wanted to help others understand the

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Speaker 1: benefits of meditation. Now that's when he met co founder

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Speaker 1: Rich Pearson in Headspace was born. What once started as

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Speaker 1: an events company, Headspace now has more than thirty million

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Speaker 1: users and one million paid subscribers. And in today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we dive into the endless benefits of meditation, how to

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Speaker 1: shift our perspective on failure in life, and the excitedly

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Speaker 1: newly developed Headspace health programming that's coming out in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: And perhaps my favorite part of today's episode is how

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Speaker 1: we finish things off with an easy, super quick meditation

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Speaker 1: that is excellent for beginners. Do you guys know the

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Speaker 1: drill at Emily a Body at Hurdle Podcast. If you

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Speaker 1: have a hurdle moment of your own to share you

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Speaker 1: just want to say hi, feel free to reach out

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Speaker 1: to me. It's Emily at Hurdle dot Us. I feel

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Speaker 1: like now it's really important for me just to tell

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Speaker 1: you all again. How thankful I am for you. I've

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Speaker 1: been getting a lot of beautiful messages in my inbox

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Speaker 1: from listeners, including one from Lauren that literally brought me

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Speaker 1: to tears last Thursday. In it, she thanked me for

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Speaker 1: pushing through the hard days and showing up, and she

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Speaker 1: said some other stuff and I'll read it directly here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for creating something that can reach so many

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Speaker 1: people and really change the trajectory of their day and

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Speaker 1: for me, honestly, my life. Thank you for putting yourself

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Speaker 1: out there, for being honest and vulnerable and making so

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Speaker 1: many of us realize that we are not alone. I'm

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Speaker 1: telling you, and I said that I like teared up.

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Speaker 1: That is like the most the biggest understatement. I uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of work doing this, but

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Speaker 1: when your work feels like your purpose, it doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: so much like work. And so the holiday season, it's

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Speaker 1: just so important to tell the people that you care

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Speaker 1: about that you care about them. And I care about

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Speaker 1: all of you more than I'll ever be able to

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Speaker 1: put into words. I hope you enjoy this week with

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Speaker 1: your loved ones, and I know that for some it's

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Speaker 1: not the easiest time of year. So again, Emily at

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Speaker 1: Hurdle US, if you need to talk and thank you

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Speaker 1: with that, Let's get to Hurdle. I'm in the studio

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Speaker 1: today with Andy Puttacum. I uh, this is kind of

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Speaker 1: surreal for me right now. You know, when I concepted

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Speaker 1: Hurdle and I thought about the people that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to come into this room before even knowing this room existed.

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Speaker 1: You were probably the first or second person I wrote

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Speaker 1: down well and yeah, thank you. So it's it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like people probably tell you all the time

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Speaker 1: that it's weird to talk to you in person.

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Speaker 2: I do get that quite a lot. I get it

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Speaker 2: quite a lot. I also get a lot. It's normally

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Speaker 2: kind of in airports and restaurants and stuff where I

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Speaker 2: meet people who use headspace, and they often tell me

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Speaker 2: that they use headspace to go to sleep, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm always a little worried when I speak to people

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Speaker 2: are going to sort of slowly kind of doze off

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Speaker 2: or just pass out. But hopefully it doesn't happen.

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Speaker 1: During today's I'm glad I'm sitting here with a cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee. It's safe for me to say that I

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Speaker 1: think most everyone I know has either dabbled in or

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Speaker 1: uses Headspace regularly, which is not a surprise because headspace

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Speaker 1: now has more than thirty million members, which is unreal.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it's I think it's still you know,

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Speaker 2: we set out to do that obviously, but still a surprise,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's yeah.

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Speaker 1: So why don't you just a quick overview of what

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Speaker 1: headspace is before we really dive into it.

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Speaker 2: So the way I think about it is that Headspace

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Speaker 2: gives people the tools that they need to cope with life.

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Speaker 2: So we all have a mind, and we all struggle

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Speaker 2: with our mind sometimes, and it's surprising actually that there

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Speaker 2: aren't that many tools out there to help us cope

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Speaker 2: with our mind. If you think about healthy living generally,

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Speaker 2: there are loads of tools out there to help us

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Speaker 2: with our physical fitness and with our nutrition and sleep

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Speaker 2: and every other kind of aspect. There's not really that

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Speaker 2: much to kind of help with sort of the way

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Speaker 2: that we feel, whether we're feeling stressed, whether we're feeling anxious,

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Speaker 2: whether it might be feeling kind of sad or frustrated,

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Speaker 2: or whether we're just simply looking to kind of boost

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Speaker 2: certain elements of our life to be more focused more productive.

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Speaker 2: So it is meditation, but I think about it in

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Speaker 2: a broader sense. I think it's about the mind. It's

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Speaker 2: about the way that we relate to ourselves, and it's

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Speaker 2: about the way we relate to the world around us.

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Speaker 1: And of course when someone opens the Headspace app, it's

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Speaker 1: not a one track for all users. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of options.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of options. Do you know when we

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Speaker 2: first started and when we first launched the Apple sproke

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Speaker 2: about seven years ago. We launched company about ten years ago,

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Speaker 2: but we launched the app seven years ago, there was

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Speaker 2: just one route. So I did three hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: five days, and I sat in the recording studio for

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Speaker 2: a long time and did every single kind of day,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it progressed and took people on a journey,

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Speaker 2: and people who were into it was great. There's a

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Speaker 2: bit like getting on a train. You're either kind of

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Speaker 2: staying on that train till the end of the destination

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Speaker 2: or you're kind of getting off. And people would say, well,

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Speaker 2: right now, I'm struggling with my relationships, and you don't

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Speaker 2: get into relationships until like month five. So one of

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Speaker 2: my how do I apply my mind fins to my

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Speaker 2: relationships right now. So we change it to a sort

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Speaker 2: of a modular system where there are a packs that

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Speaker 2: you can do, so packs on relationships or on stress,

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Speaker 2: or on anxiety. So it just means that you can

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Speaker 2: sort of personalize your own journey a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Great. So when you say a pack, it's like, I

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Speaker 1: click on this section that says relationships and for it.

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Speaker 2: Could be a ten day course, it could be a

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Speaker 2: thirty day course, or it could just be a one

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Speaker 2: off single like just a one off ten fifteen to

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Speaker 2: twenty minute exercise.

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Speaker 1: And Headspace offers free meditation, but then it also offers

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Speaker 1: different opportunities to buy in if you want kind of

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Speaker 1: to level up your experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we we set out when we started, we

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Speaker 2: wanted to make sure that whatever whatever we did, we

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Speaker 2: would always make meditation available for everybody. So that kind

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Speaker 2: of it kind of dictated the model that we have,

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Speaker 2: which is a freemium model. So yeah, there are there

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Speaker 2: are some people who've used Headspace for years and never

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Speaker 2: paid anything, and that makes me really happy kind of

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Speaker 2: they were able to do that. But for people who

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Speaker 2: want to go deeper in certain areas, then yeah you can,

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Speaker 2: you can subscribe.

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Speaker 1: I just want to check. You said freemium. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: free and premium. That's on one word.

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Speaker 2: That's that's a real thing. At least he's on the

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Speaker 2: West Coast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a whole new language out there. So why

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Speaker 1: don't we backjock a little bit. Obviously Headspace didn't get

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Speaker 1: founded overnight. You didn't start talking meditations over night. So

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Speaker 1: why don't you tell me about where you're from, how

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Speaker 1: you were brought up.

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Speaker 2: So I was i'd say fairly kind of traditional kind

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Speaker 2: of household, but with a very very progressive mum. My

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Speaker 2: grandparents were doing yoga and having acupuncture back in the

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Speaker 2: fifties in London. And yeah, my mom had kind of

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Speaker 2: grown up in that household, and so was she was

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Speaker 2: working in stress management and she was doing kind of

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Speaker 2: relaxation stuff with people and even going into businesses like

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Speaker 2: back in the eighties. So it was a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: and so that was kind of all around me. And

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Speaker 2: we learned meditation from the age of ten or eleven,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was probably kind of it was

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Speaker 2: later on, it's probably my late teens that I kind

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Speaker 2: of became more interested in it and then eventually went

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Speaker 2: on to become a Buddhist monk.

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Speaker 1: When you say you were doing meditation at age ten,

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Speaker 1: what did that look like in your home?

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Speaker 2: That looked like sitting cross legged on my bed for

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes a day. And we started off back in

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Speaker 2: those days. There wasn't loads of stuff available. There wasn't

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Speaker 2: a lot of choice when it came to meditation. We

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Speaker 2: started off with transcendental meditation. And then as I as

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Speaker 2: I kind of read and as I learned more, as

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Speaker 2: I was kind of getting old, I became more interested

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Speaker 2: in the Buddhist traditions, and yeah, eventually kind of went

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Speaker 2: off to study as a monk.

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Speaker 1: This is so interesting to me. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have this misconception of what mindfulness and meditation is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you said it, you said, probably the one

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Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people think about sitting cross

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Speaker 1: legged on your bed. Some people think you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: have like some sort of special candlelight and stages burning.

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Speaker 1: But that's not really all that it is.

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Speaker 2: That's definitely not what it is. And there's a good

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Speaker 2: reason that I'm no longer a monk, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think it was for you know, I could see how

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Speaker 2: useful the skill was a toll was and how people

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Speaker 2: were put off by all those barriers, where it's cultural barriers, length,

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Speaker 2: linguistic barriers, whether it's the idea of wearing funny clothes

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Speaker 2: or sitting cross legged, and you don't need to do

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Speaker 2: any of that stuff. And so I kind of felt

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Speaker 2: really passionate that there was a way of presenting meditation

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Speaker 2: where it's for all of us, you know, and you

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Speaker 2: can sit on a chair, you can lie on the floor.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to do it for an hour, you

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Speaker 2: can do it for three minutes and still get some

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Speaker 2: kind of benefit out of it. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: use a funny, strange sounding foreign mantra. You can just

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Speaker 2: focus on your breath. That's enough. So I feel like

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Speaker 2: the way this sort of I guess new kind of

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Speaker 2: secular way of presenting meditation as open the doorway for

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Speaker 2: people to try in a way that it'd never really

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Speaker 2: been available in the past before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, on my way down here, I opened the

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Speaker 1: headspace commuting pack right, Yeah, yeah, that's And honestly, as

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Speaker 1: someone who for years now has been trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out what her ideal practice is, I try to fit

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Speaker 1: it in ideally once a day sometimes for me, kind

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Speaker 1: of an unconventional time is around three thirty four o'clock

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Speaker 1: when I feel like I need a break from my work.

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Speaker 1: I'm a weak enough to do it because I tried

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Speaker 1: doing it first thing in the morning, and for me

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Speaker 1: it just yeah, isn't always It doesn't always work.

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Speaker 2: That way for something different for everyone, you know, so

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Speaker 2: people always say it can when should I do it?

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Speaker 2: I think that my recommendation is that you at least

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Speaker 2: try it in the morning, but not everyone's a morning person,

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Speaker 2: so that's not going to work for everybody. But for

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Speaker 2: those people who get on with it in the morning,

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Speaker 2: it means you do it and it doesn't get forgotten

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Speaker 2: and so many things going on in our life, sometimes

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Speaker 2: it can slip down the to do list. It kind

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Speaker 2: of helps often people transition from sleep to sort of

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Speaker 2: the waking day or a bit more alert, a bit

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Speaker 2: more focused. And it also one of my favorite This

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Speaker 2: is years and years ago, this guy wrote in and

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Speaker 2: he said, look, the meditation is nice. I like it,

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Speaker 2: but the biggest thing I like about headspace is that

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Speaker 2: when I do it first thing in the day, I

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Speaker 2: make better choices throughout my day when it comes to

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Speaker 2: health and wellbeing. I'm more likely to go to the gym.

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Speaker 2: I'm more likely to be aware of what food I'm

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Speaker 2: eating and why I'm eating it, and those kind of things.

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Speaker 2: So it's almost like we start the day in the

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Speaker 2: way that we mean to go on. But say everyone's different,

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Speaker 2: and the most important thing is just to prioritize it

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Speaker 2: in your day at some stage. My one kind of

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Speaker 2: bit of advice is that maybe the kind of maybe

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Speaker 2: try not to leave it till last thing at night.

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Speaker 2: Lots of people will lie down to do it in

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Speaker 2: their bed at bedtime, and it's highly likely that you're

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Speaker 2: going to fall asleep at some stage.

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Speaker 1: If I'm if I'm listening that you're smooth at the

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Speaker 1: voy at night, I am nine times out of ten.

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Speaker 2: Beef I asleep.

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Speaker 1: Not that again, I had to say that you're someone

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Speaker 1: that puts everybody.

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Speaker 2: I don't take that at all personally. I think it's

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Speaker 2: a good thing. You know, people need rest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in nineteen ninety four you kind of began

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Speaker 1: your ten year training at some of the greatest Buddhist

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Speaker 1: centers throughout Asia. But I don't feel like everyone just

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Speaker 1: one day says to themselves, man like this is exactly.

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Speaker 1: My calling is to be a Buddhist monk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look growing up, you would if you'd have

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Speaker 2: met me at sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, even twenty, there's

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Speaker 2: no way you'd have been like, yeah, this guy is

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Speaker 2: going to be a monk. I wasn't living as a monk,

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Speaker 2: and I definitely wasn't behaving as a monk. And I

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Speaker 2: was living kind of a normal life, you know, of

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Speaker 2: a student and doing all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I want to you went to university in London.

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Speaker 2: I'm just outside London, and I got about a year

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Speaker 2: a year into it. And prior to going away to university,

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Speaker 2: there are a couple of things that had happened and

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Speaker 2: they were real kind of turning points for me in

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Speaker 2: my life. One was being involved in a car accident.

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Speaker 2: There was a big group of us standing on the

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Speaker 2: sidewalk Christmas morning after a party at Christmas Eve, and

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Speaker 2: a drunk driver crashed into the group and I was

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Speaker 2: on the outside of the group, so I didn't get

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Speaker 2: I didn't get hit, but twelve people kind of went

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Speaker 2: to hospital. Two of them died, and it was although

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Speaker 2: it wasn't immediate, I didn't kind of immediately go away

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Speaker 2: and think what am I going to do with my life?

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Speaker 2: I think it set something in motion where I was

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Speaker 2: kind of forced to ask myself what was life about?

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Speaker 2: And how was I going to find meaning and purpose

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Speaker 2: in my own life? And as that was kind of

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Speaker 2: beginning to sort of cultivate or steal a little bit,

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Speaker 2: my stepsister got run over as well, and she died

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Speaker 2: in a in a bicycle accident, so probably about six

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Speaker 2: months later. So I think those two things to yeah,

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Speaker 2: they kind of started this, yeah, this this search, if

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Speaker 2: you like. And I think it's really easy kind of

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Speaker 2: when those things happen, Like, we don't grow up learning

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Speaker 2: how to deal with those things, right, so it's really

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Speaker 2: easy to turn to i don't know, alcohol or drugs

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Speaker 2: or some kind of distraction to get us away from it.

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Speaker 2: And you know, of course, like any person growing up,

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Speaker 2: I dabbled with with things. But the problem is you

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Speaker 2: always then wake up the next day and your mind

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Speaker 2: is in the same place as it was before, so

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Speaker 2: the distraction is temporary. So I just started to think

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Speaker 2: kind of, you know, I needed I needed something kind

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Speaker 2: of a bit more, you know, long lasting, and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't so I knew it was something that I couldn't

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Speaker 2: get from a book. The doctor tried to convince me

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Speaker 2: something that you could find in a bottle of medication.

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Speaker 2: I didn't believe that. I hadn't grown up with that philosophy.

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Speaker 2: There are times and places for that stuff, but that

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Speaker 2: wasn't for me then. And so yeah, eventually I came

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Speaker 2: to the conclusion that I should I should go off

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Speaker 2: and find an environment in which I could really understand

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Speaker 2: my mind and find the kind of peace of mind

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Speaker 2: that I was looking for.

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Speaker 1: And at that time, were you talking to a therapist

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Speaker 1: or anyone to try to work through some of these issues.

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Speaker 2: I did, so I went for about six months, I

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Speaker 2: saw a therapist. So as my mum worked in that

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Speaker 2: kind of industry, she went to a therapist as well,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, I went to see one of her

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Speaker 2: friends for a little while, for about six months or so,

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Speaker 2: and it was useful, you know. I think it was

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Speaker 2: important to be able to express some of those those

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Speaker 2: things that I hadn't really been able to articulate very

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Speaker 2: well or understand. I don't think the therapy necessarily led

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Speaker 2: to going off and becoming an a monk, right, but

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Speaker 2: it definitely created an environment in which I felt more

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Speaker 2: able to more confident, I guess to say, Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is how I feel, and this is what I'm going

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Speaker 2: to do. Because it's a big thing to go home

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Speaker 2: to your your housemates at university, to go home to

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Speaker 2: your parents and kind of say, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to drop out at university. I love you guys,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to head off to India and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to become a monk. Not everyone you can probably imagine.

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Speaker 2: Not everyone's like super jazz. By that idea, my dad

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Speaker 2: maybe thought I joined a cult. My friends at university

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Speaker 2: kind of felt a bit not let down. But you

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Speaker 2: know why was I kind of leaving like halfway through.

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Speaker 2: So it took a degree of sort of confidence if

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Speaker 2: you like.

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Speaker 1: To do that at the time. Were you contemplating any

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Speaker 1: other options?

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Speaker 2: Not really, No, No.

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Speaker 1: Did you know anyone that had done this?

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Speaker 2: No? I did have. I had a at the time.

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Speaker 2: I was going out with this girl at college university

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Speaker 2: and she was really into kind of Buddhism and meditation

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Speaker 2: and stuff, and she'd been reading a lot of books

390
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Speaker 2: and she was always kind of telling me, you know,

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Speaker 2: how inspiring it was, these monks, these nuns that kind

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Speaker 2: of sit there and they meditate all day. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I thought she was crazy, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I was kind of like at the time, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure, I'm quite there and then but at

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Speaker 2: some level that was all kind of going in and

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Speaker 2: when it came to it, it was probably the one

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Speaker 2: of the easiest decisions. Is a big decision, but it's

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Speaker 2: probably one of the easiest decisions I've ever made.

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Speaker 1: It felt right.

401
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that you know, when you didn't call it,

402
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Speaker 2: you got your heart, but that are calling. But when

403
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Speaker 2: you know something, So that was such a sense of

404
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Speaker 2: perps Yeah, purpose that it doesn't matter what other thoughts

405
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Speaker 2: are there, whether it doubts or anxiety or anything, you

406
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Speaker 2: just kind of know. I honestly felt in that moment

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Speaker 2: like I had no other choice in my life.

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Speaker 1: And that can be applicable to a lot of different

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Speaker 1: things in life. Right. Absolutely, sometimes you just know what

410
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: you gotta do, You got to follow, you got you

411
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Speaker 1: gotta trust what's going on inside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would say not just sometimes. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a big believer that we create a lot of

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Speaker 2: noise in our in our thinking mind and often our

415
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Speaker 2: thinking mind obscure is that feeling, that sense, that connection

416
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Speaker 2: with our intuition. Our intuition is pretty good, you know.

417
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Speaker 2: The more time we can spend with that sense, the

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Speaker 2: generally the more smoothly kind of life goes. So as

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Speaker 2: much as possible, you know, I try to step out

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Speaker 2: of my thinking mind and be kind of present with

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Speaker 2: you call it intuition or quite confidence, that that feeling

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Speaker 2: where you kind of you just know it's the right

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Speaker 2: thing to do.

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Speaker 1: I think what's really impressive is not just that you

425
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: were so confident and following that inner voice, but also

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Speaker 1: that you were able to articulate and express how you

427
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Speaker 1: felt at that time. I think when we go through

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Speaker 1: difficult periods in our life sometimes and especially maybe I'm

429
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 1: being a little biased, but with men, I feel like

430
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Speaker 1: they have a difficult time expressing how they feel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, don't get me wrong. You know I definitely

432
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Speaker 2: didn't have it sort of completely down at that time,

433
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Speaker 2: and I really struggled with certain friends. So friends that

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Speaker 2: i'd kind of grown up with, you know, all they

435
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: kind of knew of me as a friend was, you know,

436
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 2: I played rugby with them, I'd go down a pub

437
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 2: with them, and drink, you know, and so we didn't

438
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: really kind of have a small town. We didn't have

439
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: that kind it is a very different times a long

440
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: time ago. We didn't have that kind of relationship where

441
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: we could, you know, discuss things in that way. So

442
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: I had to say, be creative, but I definitely had

443
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: to find routes in with each of those people, and

444
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 2: some of them understood it, and some of them didn't.

445
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: Those who didn't, over time, I think, have watched the

446
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: journey and are now kind of yeah, maybe maybe a

447
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: little more accepting of how it's gone.

448
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: I can only imagine the people that looked at you

449
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: then like you were crazy, and now they see how

450
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: wildly popular this thing that you've created out of all

451
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: of this experience has become.

452
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they also kind of those people I think

453
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 2: that's really important in life to whether it's family or friends,

454
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: you know, those are also the people that have known

455
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 2: me my entire life, and they wouldn't care like how

456
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: popular it became. They wouldn't kind of care about any

457
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 2: of that stuff. I'm still just Andy or PUDs as

458
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: they call me. Back home, and yeah, I really I

459
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: love going back into those environments where we kind of

460
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: we reconnect, you know when the old school friends and stuff.

461
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: There's something there which is really special. I think it's

462
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: not that you necessarily have so much in common. I

463
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: remember coming back from the monastery and meeting up with

464
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: them all and I realized that, oh wow, we been

465
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: doing really different things for the last ten years. We

466
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 2: might not have loads to chat about, but there's always

467
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: that kind of connection there from when you grow up.

468
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the ten year period between

469
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four and two thousand and four. Yeah, like

470
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: I highlight reel.

471
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: So the first thing to say is that I wasn't

472
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 2: a monk the entire time. You don't go and knock

473
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: on the door and say can I become a monk

474
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 2: now please? And they give you the ropes you kind

475
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: of got. No, yeah, I earned them. But you know,

476
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: there is a there's a process you go through. You

477
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 2: train as a lay person, then as a novice monk,

478
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: and then you take full ordination as a Buddhist monk.

479
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: I started in the Burmese school of meditation sort of

480
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: Southeast Asia, which is it looks quite austere, so for

481
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 2: people not that familiar with the different traditions of bism.

482
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 2: It's probably quite a lot of people. That's the monks

483
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: with the kind of like orange kind of robes you know,

484
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: you might see in Thailand and Lao and Vietnam, and yeah,

485
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: sort of schranker that part of the world. It's fairly

486
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: kind of fairly austere, and it was brilliant in terms

487
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: of creating a foundation. But for me, I felt that

488
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: I was still although I had sort of learned the

489
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: skill of meditation to some degree and I had a

490
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: sense of greater center piece, there was some element that

491
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: still felt like it was kind of missing in some way.

492
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: And I was very fortunate to meet a Tibetan Brimichet,

493
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: Tibetan lama, and I was so kind of struck by

494
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: his warmth, by his kindness, his compassion, his understanding that

495
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: I kind of I made the choice to to sort

496
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: of follow that tradition, and so I went off to

497
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: India and I became I became a Tibetan Buddhist, Tibetan

498
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: Buddhist monk, and there was a lot more focus on

499
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: I felt on compassion. It was really like the starting

500
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: point that we don't meditate for ourselves, we meditate for

501
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: the benefit of others. None of us live in isolation

502
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: in the world, and if our starting point is one

503
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: of altruism, empathy, and compassion, then we will naturally find

504
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: happiness ourselves for ourselves on that journey. So for me,

505
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: that was kind of what really resonated and what ultimately

506
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: allowed me to find that sort of peace of mind

507
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 2: that I was looking for.

508
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: And so where along the journey do you kind of

509
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: decide that you're good, like I'm good being here, it's

510
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: time for me to get back to maybe what I

511
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: was doing before, or did you know while you were

512
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: over there kind of how you saw this integrating back

513
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: into some sort of normal, more normal reasons.

514
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: I love to be I'd love to tell you that

515
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 2: I had that kind of insight, but I didn't, you

516
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: know I it. In fact, three years before I kind

517
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 2: of finished I'm training, I was still at a stage

518
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: where I kind of thought probably be a month for

519
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 2: the rest of my life, and I was open to

520
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: that idea. So I asked my teacher and I said,

521
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: you know, I was telling I was about to take

522
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 2: another commitment. I think at the time it was like

523
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: one years, three years or life, you know, And I said,

524
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: I I feel like I want to do it for life,

525
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: but I trust kind of your judgment more than more

526
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: than mine, So I'd like you to decide for me.

527
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 2: If you say life, I'd do it for life.

528
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: And helped by this idea of just putting your entire

529
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: life else's hands, I mean, it's not like renewing like

530
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: your Netflix subscribe.

531
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: As you say it like that, I realized it could

532
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: sound quite quite strange, but I had a huge amount

533
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: of trust based on experience kind of with this teacher,

534
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: and so I handed it over to him and he said, well,

535
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: I think you know, let's do like another three years

536
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: and sort of see see how it goes. And eventually

537
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: the monastery help me go and teach meditation at a

538
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 2: meditation center in Moscow and Russia. And whilst I was

539
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: living there, I that was when I would say it

540
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: was the beginning of starting to find a different language,

541
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: because I was essentially I was a monk but living

542
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: in a city. So I was kind of living the

543
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: life that everyone else was living, but at the same

544
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: time somewhat separate from it. And I could see that

545
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: the way I was dressed and everything else kind of

546
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 2: that was definitely a barrier and an obstacle and people

547
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: coming along to the meditation center. There was regular people,

548
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: they'd come along after work and stuff, and so it

549
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: was kind of realizing that there was an opportunity to

550
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: present this, as I say, in a way that hadn't

551
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: been presented before, maybe without the robes. And finally a

552
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: guy came in and said, look, I'd love you to

553
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: come and work with my execs at work. They're really

554
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: stressed out, but you can't come dressed like that. And

555
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: that got me thinking, you know, do I want to

556
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: be a monk or do I want to teach meditation?

557
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: I could do both, but there was an opportunity to

558
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: kind of teach meditation in a new way. So that

559
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: was how that's how it began.

560
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, obviously the amount of lessons you learned

561
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: during that time are limitless. If you had to articulate

562
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: one or two of the biggest takeaways from that ten

563
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: year period, I mean, and there's going to be so

564
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: many more takeaways in our conversation over the next little bit.

565
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: But do you have kind of something that you go

566
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: back to regularly from that time in your life?

567
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as much as possible, I just try

568
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of be present now and I

569
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: don't really kind of spend a lot of time thinking

570
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: about the past and kind of what I did in

571
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: the past. It was an incredibly special time. I feel

572
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: very fortunate to have done it. I would never change anything,

573
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: you know, it was really valuable time. I think the

574
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: most people. Probably people are spoke to imagine and when

575
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: you go away to a monastery or a nunnery, whatever

576
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: it might be, you're going to sit there on a

577
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: mountaintop completely blissed out, kind of you know your mind's

578
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: going to acquiere, and you get that a little bit

579
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: to begin with. It's like the honeymoon phase. And then

580
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: there's the realization that, oh wow, like I have to

581
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: sit with my mind every day and there's no distraction.

582
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: So I think the greatest kind of lesson that it

583
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: taught me was to be willing to be with my

584
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: mind as it is. So typically we go through life

585
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: and we're chasing after pleasant thoughts and we're trying to

586
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 2: get away from unpleasant thoughts. When you do a lot

587
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: of meditation, there's no choice but to sit with the

588
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: mind as it is. You start to see that actually,

589
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: if you don't get too involved with all that thinking,

590
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: did actually those thoughts just come and go.

591
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, I feel like though I've

592
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: got to say it that, don't you think at the

593
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: beginning making this decision, after those truly difficult modle moments

594
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: as we call them in the room, was you trying

595
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: to get away from some unpleasant thoughts?

596
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's almost inevitable. I don't think there's

597
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: any other way. In fact, if you speak to most

598
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: people who go down that route, it's the realisation of

599
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: suffering in life that's led them on that journey. So

600
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: but that turns it into something really powerful, you know.

601
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: So now when I look back at those things, of course,

602
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: it's it's always it's heartbreaking to think of people that

603
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: were lost and the impact that it had on their

604
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: families and our family and everything else. But I see

605
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: it in a very different way now, you know, it

606
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: had such a positive impact on my own life and

607
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: on my own journey, And so yeah, I think often

608
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: we look back at things and see them as bad

609
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: things or failures or difficulties or but then actually when

610
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: we kind of see how those things play out, very

611
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: often they have a really kind of positive impact. It's

612
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: the same way. I was chatting with someone the other

613
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: day and we were talking about a few years back

614
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: eye cancer, and they were saying, kind of would you

615
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: want that to have played out kind of differently? And

616
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: I said, actually, no, like it was such a positive experience.

617
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: I don't know how else to describe it. You know,

618
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: it was one it was before we had children. I

619
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: experienced some amazing time off with my wife and we

620
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: had the best time, and it was difficult and it

621
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: was challenging, but the meditation during that time kind of

622
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: helped me so much and facing some of those kind

623
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: of bigger challenges in life, I think kind of just

624
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: create this atmosphere of gratitude and appreciation and help to

625
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: kind of redefine what our purpose and meaning is in life.

626
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: So I don't see those things as as you know,

627
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: kind of essentially good or bad. They're just things that

628
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: happen to us in our life, and we can choose

629
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: kind of how we relate to those things and what

630
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: we do with them.

631
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: What a perspective to have, I mean, I think it's

632
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: admirable and I think it's something that I can say

633
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: that I myself definitely try to to take a step

634
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: back and look at the challenging times and the good times,

635
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: both with their equal amount of purpose.

636
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

637
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: I think it takes a strong person, especially in the

638
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: challenging times, to eventually be able to look back and

639
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: take the lessons from it. And I think a lot

640
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: of things that we could see as failures are often

641
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: the things that teach us the most.

642
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the temptation some people kind

643
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: of will inevitably kind of say I don't feel I

644
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: can do that, or it's too difficult, it's too painful.

645
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: The thing that meditation I find so helpful is that

646
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: it allows us to let go of that storyline. So

647
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: we might kind of think, oh, I'm not that kind

648
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: of person, I could never do Okay, that's just a thought,

649
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: see the thought, let it go, and then all of

650
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: a sudden, You're not that kind of person anyway. Like

651
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: you can, just like we all have the ability to

652
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: be present, to find a quiet confidence within ourselves, to

653
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: listen into our intuition, and to lead a life that

654
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: we would like to live. It's just that we get

655
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: so caught up in the thinking mind that we forget that. Sometimes.

656
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: I think that it's so funny we get these ideas

657
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: about ourselves that we believe to be facts. So it's like,

658
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: look at you, and I'll be like, I have brown

659
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: hair and I'm scared of heights. But the reality is

660
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: that I have brown hair and I feel as though

661
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm scared of heights. Yeah, that doesn't mean you know,

662
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: it's bigger than that. It's bigger than that.

663
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: I work with people all the time kind of who

664
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: will say they're, you know, they're feeling a certain kind

665
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: of way about themselves, and I'm this kind of person.

666
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: And then when they actually sort of sit and we

667
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 2: chat kind of a few weeks later, a few months later,

668
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: they realize that actually that storyline in their mind that

669
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: they've been carrying around often for years and years, sometimes

670
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: even decades, that's an old storyline. It has no relevance

671
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: or truth to their life as they know it right now.

672
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: And that's kind of for me. That's you know, people

673
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 2: think about enlightenment kind of this big, kind of massive

674
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: For me, like, that's kind of like enlightenment in life.

675
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: It's the realization that we're free, and so if we

676
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: can use meditation to kind of free ourselves from the

677
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: storylines of our mind and not be overwhelmed and not

678
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: be kind of to live this life of confusion. Then

679
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, life starts to look and feel

680
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 2: very very different.

681
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: What I think that now I'm most interested to know

682
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: is about how the gears shift, because I know that

683
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: in twenty ten when Headspace first launched and launched as

684
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: an events company. Yeah, so talk to me about that.

685
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was working when I went back to

686
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: the UK from Asia. I started working in sort of

687
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: private practice. I found a doctor who was very progressive

688
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 2: interested in mindfulness. Mindfulness was us beginning to enter sort

689
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 2: of mainstream medicine a long time ago. And through that

690
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: I met I met now my very dear friend and

691
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: co founder, Rich, and we started talking kind of about it,

692
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 2: what it would look like to take it outside of

693
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: a room working one to one with people and into

694
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: a sort of a to a bigger audience if you like.

695
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: And Rich suggested the very first time we met, he said,

696
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 2: we should just do the Nike Plus of meditation. Nike

697
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: Plus had only come out, I think about six months before.

698
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: Apps had only come out twelve months before. I had

699
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: no idea what an app was. I'd no idea what

700
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: Nike Plust was. And I said to Rich, Yeah, I

701
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: don't think you can do meditation like digitally. I think

702
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: you kind of have to be in the room, you know.

703
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: So Rich, I mean love him. He was so kind

704
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: of considerate and respectful. He was kind of like, oh, okay, yeah,

705
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 2: let's let's do that. Let's do events then instead. So

706
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: I wrote a few books and we did events and

707
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 2: that kind of got us. That got us going until

708
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: we were probably kind of two years into that, and

709
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: people who were coming to them the thing. I think

710
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: this happens really often. They came along and said, Wow,

711
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: I feel really inspired, But what do I do when

712
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 2: I go home? And this happens a lot. You know,

713
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,959
Speaker 2: people will go and retreat or they do New Year

714
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: things and it's like this big moment and then what

715
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: happens to the rest of the time. And Rich said, well,

716
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: maybe you could just try like recording something and they

717
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: could take it home with them. So we did, and

718
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: people liked it, and then people wanted more. So we

719
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 2: made an app.

720
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: Did the two of you ever think that the both

721
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: of you should talk on the app?

722
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 2: No, it was always just you, Yeah, because it would

723
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: have been weird, like you know, one of our one

724
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: of our sort of anchors or one of values if

725
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: you like, is his authenticity. And Rich didn't train in meditation.

726
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: He's I have to say, since that day I met him,

727
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: just over ten years ago, he's never missed a day

728
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 2: of meditation and he meditates for an hour every single day.

729
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: So I mean he's he's committed as a as a student,

730
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: there's no doubt. But his background was in creative development

731
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: and sort of marketing. So what Rich could bring to

732
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: it was this amazing lens of like, you know, how

733
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 2: should this look? How should it feel? Kind of what

734
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: what would our friends like? What would get our friends

735
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: to actually give? What would it take to get our

736
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: friends to actually try meditation? Because meditation is in the experience.

737
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: It's not in the hearing about it. It's not about

738
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: the reading about it. It's in actually sitting down and

739
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: doing it.

740
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: Sidetab Yeah, how long do you meditate every day?

741
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: It varies, So I have a fixed practice that so

742
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: when you're at the monastery, depending on what route you go,

743
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: I took quite a medicine if route in the monastery,

744
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: So I made certain commitments are for life and regardless

745
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: of whether you're a monk or not. So I still

746
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: do those kind of every single day, and then if

747
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: I have more time, maybe at lunchtime, then I'll do.

748
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,959
Speaker 1: Some then as well, you gave me no time announce.

749
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: And all of that. Yeah, and people always want to know,

750
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: and it's kind of it's not really about the length

751
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: of title. I don't like people getting hung up on

752
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: the time because if I say, you know, a certain amount, yeah,

753
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: then maybe people feel like they're not doing enough or

754
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: maybe they're doing too much. So we know kind of

755
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 2: from all the research that's been done, it's not really

756
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: about duration. It's about it's a quality rather than quantity.

757
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: So when you're starting out, three minutes is enough, five

758
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: minutes is enough, ten minutes is enough. Don't worry too

759
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: much about what the old bold bloke who when it's

760
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: set in a monastery for many many years, kind of

761
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 2: does because it's kind of not relevant. So what's relevant

762
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: for you in this moment right now?

763
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Right And I think it's interesting. I was looking at

764
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: some of the statistics on headspace, and obviously we'll keep

765
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: going with this story, but I'll route all some of

766
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: them off. Three weeks of headspace results in a twenty

767
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: three percent increase in compassion. It also resulted in these

768
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: research studies fifty seven percent decrease in aggression. Headspace also

769
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: can reduce stress levels and ten days and then four

770
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: weeks of headspace improves focus by fourteen percent. So I mean,

771
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: you guys, we're building something that was really impacting people.

772
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, our third employee, our second paid employee,

773
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: was a scientist, and we decided really early on that

774
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: if this was going to be credible, if we were

775
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: going to take this where we wanted to take it, it

776
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 2: was really important to establish it, as you know, as

777
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: scientifically validated kind of route to health and health and happiness.

778
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: So over time we've created a whole kind of health team.

779
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: We're currently working towards FDA regulation here in with a

780
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: separate health product here in the US, and we work

781
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 2: with the NHS in the UK. And I think it's

782
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: those kinds of studies have really changed the way in

783
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: which people view meditation. Back when I was in the monastery,

784
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: there was no real way of kind of knowing, well,

785
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: it's just making it different or am I imagining it?

786
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: So now you know, you can stick someone in an

787
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: MRI machine, a functional MRI machine, and actually kind of

788
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: see what's happening to the brain over a period of time,

789
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: and we know that it's not just a psychological phenomena,

790
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: it's a physiological one where the brain itself changes shape.

791
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: It gets thicker and stronger in the parts where we

792
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 2: want it to be thicker and stronger as we meditate.

793
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: Okay, so you come to this realization that events just

794
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: aren't going to cut it, your back on this kind

795
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: of thought process that like, maybe there's a room for

796
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: a Nike Plossum meditation. Yeah, how does how do you

797
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: pull the trigger?

798
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: So we were you know, events is interesting. It's I

799
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: don't think we would have had the success we've had

800
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: with the app unless we've done events first. The events

801
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: taught us everything that we needed to know for the app.

802
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: We were in a room with real time, real life

803
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: kind of people understanding kind of what was the right

804
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: way to talk about it, what exercises work, what did

805
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: and we were getting immediate feedback. So as that kind

806
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: of built up, I think there was just a sense

807
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: of we have to do this, and we got offered

808
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 2: the opportunity to put on the front page. And if

809
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: you're familiar with the Guardian newspaper Observer in the UK,

810
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: so it's one of the it's one of the biggest ones,

811
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: and the biggest month or the biggest week of the

812
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: year is early in January kind of you know, when

813
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: everyone gets excited about what they're going to do. And

814
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 2: they asked us to write a booklet so on how

815
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: to learn meditation, and this is a huge We were

816
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: still a really kind of small small company. They were

817
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: going to pay for it, and they were going to

818
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: put it on the front of every single newspaper, so

819
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: like millions of these kind of going out around the country.

820
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: And we thought about the opportunity and we were like, well,

821
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: imagine if on the back page we could say and

822
00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: register and subscribe with headspace and it was free, you know,

823
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: which for a company starting out there are only a

824
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: couple of us in the company, it was massive, so

825
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: that I think kind of encouraged us to pull the trigger.

826
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, it kind of worked out.

827
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: It's like what they say, it's start before you're ready.

828
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, and we did. We we really

829
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: from that, I think because Richard come from marketing and

830
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,919
Speaker 2: working with big brands, he really understood kind of how

831
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: those could help. I think there are only three of

832
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: us in the company. It was Rich and I in

833
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 2: one unpaid intern when when we went to see Virgin

834
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: Atlantic and say, hey, guys, you know, what are people

835
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 2: going to do when they fly across you know, like

836
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: let's let's put some meditation on your TV channels. And

837
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 2: they were up for it. And all of a sudden

838
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: you kind of get this this sleep. It's not just

839
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: more people becoming aware of the brand. It's that big

840
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: brand that people trust, kind of giving it their stamp

841
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: for approval and giving it credibility. So we've we've partnered

842
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 2: a lot as we've as we've gone on the journey.

843
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: So you have this big opportunity with the newspaper. Yeah,

844
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: and people are signing up everywhere. Yeah, and when do

845
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: these two guys in the UK decide that they need

846
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: to come to the US.

847
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. So off the back of that, I reckon we're

848
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: probably in the year or year and a half afterwards.

849
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: You know, we probably grew to a team of about

850
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 2: twenty in the UK, and we started to think about

851
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 2: where we could be best set for success. And I

852
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: do think the US is so forward thinking in terms

853
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: of entrepreneurship, in terms of investment and on the West

854
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: Coast definitely kind of towards kind of health and well being.

855
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: There's a leaning towards that. We were particularly interested in

856
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: finding an environment where there was a passion for health,

857
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 2: where there was strong technology, strong creative and strong entertainment. Ultimately,

858
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 2: we wanted to be this kind of content media platform

859
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: within the health space, and LA kind of ticked a

860
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: lot of those boxes. We also love to surf, and

861
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: we had a dream of getting up every morning and

862
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: surfing before we went to work a bad way for

863
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: a couple of years until till I had kids, But

864
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 2: I think there was there were lots of different reasons,

865
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 2: but professionally, yeah, it was a route to investment, and

866
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: it was a route to getting some of the very

867
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: best talent in the world to join the team.

868
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: For sure. So your headquarters now are in Santa Monica.

869
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: I have been. I went when I was there earlier

870
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: this year running around LA recording a ton of hurdle podcasts.

871
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: But when I was there, I loved how like wide

872
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: open and area, and I think when I was there

873
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: it was before. Now your headquarters have expanded even more.

874
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's big.

875
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: It's a big operation.

876
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: So there's a good few hundred people now and Santa Monica.

877
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: We have an SF kind of hub which is more

878
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: engineering and B two B and and then the London

879
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 2: the London crew and also kind of a small presence

880
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: in New York.

881
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: When did you realize after making the jump to the

882
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: US that, like you were on this projectory to be

883
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: I mean what it is now? I mean again, we're

884
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: talking thirty million members and one million paying subscribers.

885
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's grown a bit since then. Well, I

886
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: think too. I would say if I had to kind of,

887
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: you know, put a pin in the matter, I would

888
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: say it's probably it was probably twenty fourteen we launched

889
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 2: the second version of Headspace. It was that, I said,

890
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: it was a more kind of modular format. Apple kind

891
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 2: of fell in love with what we were doing and

892
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: gave us a lot of promotion, and we suddenly saw this.

893
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: It just felt like new people were joining kind of

894
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: all the time. We outgrew our place in Venice Beach

895
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: really kind of quickly and moved to Santa Monica. And

896
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: I'd say we went through a phase growing from maybe

897
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: fifty to like one fifty or one eighty. It just

898
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: seemed to happen in a period of months, right, and

899
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 2: I remember just walking into the office thinking I don't

900
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: know any of these people, like who are they? What

901
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: are they doing here? And so, you know, operationally, a

902
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: lot of things changed. We became a lot more kind

903
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: of efficient as an organization and started to hire people

904
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: who were so much better and so much more experienced

905
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: than we were in any of these things, and it

906
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: was it was just a huge relief to be able

907
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: to kind of hand over some of the things that

908
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 2: we've been doing ourselves for a long time.

909
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: It's insane, I mean to walk in in a period

910
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: of months and that your team has just grown this exponentially. Yea,

911
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: did you feel like you were having a lot of

912
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: those pinch me moments or did you ever feel like

913
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 1: you needed to like take a back step?

914
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: And it's interesting for both Rich and there have been

915
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 2: a couple of moments. I've been a couple of big

916
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: moments where we've both gone like, Wow, this is this

917
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: is crazy. There have not necessarily been moments in the office.

918
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: They've been I think more sort of cultural so on

919
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: the Tonight Show and meditating with Jimmy Fallon and his

920
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: audience and that for UR, we when we're in the UK,

921
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 2: we always said right at the very beginning, kind of

922
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: we would feel like we had moved the conversation on

923
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 2: in meditation. If one night we could be on a

924
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: live chat show kind of doing a meditation, and that

925
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: felt like a real kind of a real shift, a

926
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: real move. And I think both both of us like, wow,

927
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: this is crazy and't going to the White House and

928
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: places like I think there have been a number of

929
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: moments where we have kind of pinched ourselves. I think

930
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: in terms of the both of us are so involved

931
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: in the in the work. When you're involved in it,

932
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: it's very hard to kind of have that perspective of

933
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: stepping back and thinking, oh, this is this has really

934
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 2: kind of grown. We're very Fortunately the other day we

935
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: had Bill and Melinda Gates come in so we do

936
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: conversations at lunchtime, and they came in for a chat

937
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: and a Q and A with a team, and I

938
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: think that was another kind of moment of sort of

939
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: steff back and going, Wow, not only are they, you know,

940
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: doing air space, but they're kind of willing to spare

941
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: the time to come and see what's going on here.

942
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 2: And it was a testament to what the team's done.

943
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: But it's also a testament to how the space has

944
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: kind of moved on. Yeah, so it definitely are those

945
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: moments where I still kind of stop and reflect.

946
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: There are a lot of different people that use headspace.

947
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: I think that again, going back to those barriers of meditation,

948
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: I think using an app makes meditating a lot easier

949
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: for sure, for someone who doesn't really know how to

950
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: begin or can't get past like what I feel like

951
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: can be like that initial wall. What are some of

952
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: the actionable tips that you offer them.

953
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: So we're trying as much as possible to provide the

954
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: information that people need. We talk about it internally as

955
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: providing the most compelling invitation possible to actually try it.

956
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: So for some people that's going to be the science,

957
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: and it's kind of like, hey, you may not be

958
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: interesting actually doing the meditation in yourself here, but here's

959
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: what happens to people who meditate, and here's how impacts

960
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: our health and wellbeing. We are with our partnerships. So

961
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: with Nike, for example, we do, like you running, We

962
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 2: do loads of kind of collaboration stuff and it's like, Okay,

963
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 2: you may not want to sit down and meditate, but

964
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 2: maybe you want to learn how to be mindful when

965
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 2: you're out running.

966
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: I love that, by the way. Oh yeah, and that

967
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 1: must have been that must have been a pinch me moment.

968
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys joked at the very beginning, I know,

969
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: running and then Nike is like, hey, we should probably

970
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: talk about collaborating.

971
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, and that was I mean, that's really

972
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: it's also really it's like thrilling when a big brand

973
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: like that that you have a huge amount of respect

974
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 2: for and you've always kind of like to have them

975
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: come to you and say that would you like to

976
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: do something? That's amazing, So we really kind of enjoyed that.

977
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: So we're trying to provide these different routes in for

978
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: people who aren't necessarily ready for meditation just now. In fact,

979
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: right now we will Just recently we launched sleep within,

980
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 2: which is a whole separate thing within the app, and

981
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: the idea being that, hey, look a lot of people

982
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: will change to meditation kind of if they want to

983
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 2: sort of sleep a little bit better, but not everybody

984
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: kind of wants to take that route, So other other

985
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 2: exercises we can provide to help people kind of sleep

986
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: and then maybe they become interested in meditation along the way.

987
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 2: But I would say to anybody kind of look, you

988
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: can download it for free. You could. The shortest meditation

989
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: you can do when you first download it on take

990
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: ten is I think it's three minutes. Like this is

991
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: worth three minutes of your time just to experiment and

992
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: see it as an experiment. Don't take my word for

993
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: it that it makes a difference. I'm not promising that

994
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 2: it will. But try it for yourself and see if

995
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: you feel different after three minutes, and then maybe try

996
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 2: it for just a couple more days, just to kind

997
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: of be sure that you give it a give it

998
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: a fair chance.

999
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: And what about environmental factors?

1000
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's real. I've lived in a

1001
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 2: lot of very big, busy, noisy cities in my life,

1002
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 2: and definitely some places are easier to meditate than others.

1003
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: But I would say, don't worry so much about external noise.

1004
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 2: The only thing that you really need is not to

1005
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 2: be disturbed, as in physically disturbed during the three five

1006
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: ten minutes that you're going to sit down and meditate,

1007
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 2: same time, same place. Definitely helps, but it's not not essential.

1008
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: As I say, Actually during the exercise, I encourage people

1009
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: to use the noises. It might be your next door

1010
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 2: neighbors kind of a very loud music, or it might

1011
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: be a construction drill going on outside. How can you

1012
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: bring that into the practice and make so it shouldn't

1013
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: be an obstacle. Meditator is very flexible, so it's like,

1014
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: how do you work within the conditions that you find yourself,

1015
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: rather than, Oh, there's no point in be doing it

1016
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 2: here because it's not going to work. I need to

1017
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: head off to the Himalayas. You don't.

1018
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: You don't need to.

1019
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 2: I can testify I've.

1020
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: Done it on the subway. I think that's the ultimate test.

1021
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: The question I love to kind of ask as I

1022
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: wind down here is if you had the opportunity to

1023
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: offer that Andy, who was going through that really tough

1024
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: time after that car accident, some advice maybe looking back

1025
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: on the situation, now, yeah, what would you What would

1026
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: you say to him?

1027
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say anything.

1028
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 2: I wouldn't encourage myself at that time to do anything differently.

1029
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 2: You know, it's tempting to look back and to kind

1030
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 2: of think, if only I had known that, But if

1031
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 2: we had known that, then we would be on a

1032
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 2: different journey, and I'm really happy that I've lived the

1033
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: journey that I've lived, and that I'm on the journey

1034
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 2: that I'm on. I don't want it to be different,

1035
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: and so I wouldn't even want to go back and

1036
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: avoid those difficult times. I wouldn't want to find a

1037
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 2: way of getting out of that feeling of anxiety or

1038
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 2: depression or whatever it could be described at the time. Retrospect,

1039
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: I'm really happy that happened because that was the journey.

1040
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 2: Like the journey isn't the perfect painted picture in the

1041
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 2: future that we dream of the journey, I would say,

1042
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 2: I would argue, that's not even that important. That it's

1043
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: good that we have some direction in life, but the

1044
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 2: finished thing is not so important. The important thing is

1045
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 2: the journey, and the journey is rich. Sometimes it's beautiful,

1046
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: sometimes it's peaceful, sometimes it's ugly, and sometimes it's painful,

1047
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: and that's okay, that's the journey. I love that.

1048
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: I feel like the only way I know how to

1049
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: close out this session with you is to ask you

1050
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: if we could do like a two minute meditation.

1051
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: Sure we can't.

1052
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: And the good news is that maybe someone who's never

1053
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: opened the headspace app. But loves hurdle. Yeah, is gonna,

1054
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna. I'm gonna be comfortable here. It's gonna, you know,

1055
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: listen to this be like that. That was pretty dope,

1056
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna open the headspace app. So I'm ready.

1057
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: I'm ready, all right.

1058
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 2: So obviously, you know, I know you've I know you've

1059
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 2: used it before, but I'm going to assume that people

1060
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: kind of listening haven't used it before.

1061
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:05,479
Speaker 1: That's great.

1062
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 2: So just get yourself comfortable, doesn't matter too much kind

1063
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 2: of how how you're sat. You can even do it

1064
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: lying down if you prefer, but just take a take

1065
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: a moment to get comfortable. And I always encourage people

1066
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: to start with their eyes open rather than closed, just

1067
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: sort of taking in the space around You're not looking around,

1068
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 2: but just taking taking in the space around you. And

1069
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: then when you feel ready, just taking a big deep breath,

1070
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: breathing into the nose and outs with the mouth, and

1071
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: if you haven't done already, as you breathe outs with

1072
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: the mouth, just gently closing the eyes and just taking

1073
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 2: a moment just to enjoy that feeling of having stopped,

1074
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: having nothing to do, nowhere to go, just feeling the

1075
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: weight of your body against the seat or the floor

1076
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: beneath you. And as you pause, just checking in with

1077
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 2: your body, just noticing how the body feels. Sometimes you

1078
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: might feel a sense of heaviness or tiredness. Other times

1079
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 2: it might be lightness, excitement, And as you're becoming more

1080
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: aware of the body, just starting to notice how the

1081
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: breath in the body feels as well. So to begin with,

1082
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: just noticing where in the body. So for some people

1083
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: it's in the chest they feel that movement. Sometimes it's

1084
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 2: a diaphragm, sometimes it's a stomach. You'll put your hand

1085
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: on your stomach just to feel that if you find

1086
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 2: it easier. You don't have to do anything you have

1087
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 2: to breathe in any special way, don't have to try

1088
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 2: and stop thinking, Just allow thoughts to come and go.

1089
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm just going to stay focused on that feeling, that

1090
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 2: rising and falling sensation of the breath, just for the

1091
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: next ten or twenty seconds. To notice when you get distracted,

1092
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: letting go with that thought, just gently coming back to

1093
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 2: the breath again, and then just gently bringing the attention

1094
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: back to the body, back to that feeling of weight

1095
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: and contact. Starting to notice the sounds around you again

1096
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: and when you're ready, just gently.

1097
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: It's the best. It's the best every time. Andy, thanks

1098
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: so much for sitting down with.

1099
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 2: Me, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

1100
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: Please please take a moment and leave a quick review

1101
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: of the podcast by clicking the link with the description

1102
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: to this episode. We all face multiple hurdles in life.

1103
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: I want to hear about yours. Reach out to me

1104
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: at Emily at Hurdle dot us. Connect with the podcast

1105
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Hurdle podcast Andy. Where do

1106
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: they find you? Where do they find headspace? Give me

1107
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: the lowdown.

1108
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: We're at headspace dot com. You can download the app

1109
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: at iTunes or in the play store, and you know,

1110
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: you can find me on Twitter and Instagram and stuff.

1111
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm not the biggest kind of social media as you

1112
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 2: would imagine, kind of as a as a former monk,

1113
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: but yeah, have a look. We're out there, We're around,

1114
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 2: we are out there.

1115
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm at Emily a body. Thanks again, Andy, I appreciate it.

1116
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: Another hurdle conquered. Catch you guys next time.