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Speaker 1: I'm the kind of person when there's a trial and

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Speaker 1: they say, don't show that photograph to the jury, it

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Speaker 1: can inflame them, Dad, gumm it. They need to be inflamed.

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Speaker 1: They need to know the truth. It's not enough to

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Speaker 1: say the person was shot or the person was harmed

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Speaker 1: in some other manner with a straight edged weapon. They

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Speaker 1: need to see it. They are sitting in judgment of

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Speaker 1: somebody's freedom and they're trying to render a verdict and

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Speaker 1: give justice to a victim. Well, they need to understand

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened. And violence is ugly and it is awful,

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Speaker 1: and it's necessary to see it and understand it on

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Speaker 1: a level that you can, and that's what we have today.

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Speaker 1: So when you're talking about autopsies, police and prosecutors and

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Speaker 1: crime scene investigators, they attend autopsies and they do this

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Speaker 1: because it's beneficial. It's beneficial to the medical examiner and

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Speaker 1: the investigator to be able to talk about the facts

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Speaker 1: of the case, to ask each other questions, to look

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Speaker 1: at the pictures, to look at evidence such as shellcases,

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Speaker 1: to collect evidence that you want to go on and

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Speaker 1: take to the crime lab, like the victim's blood or

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Speaker 1: something that is located on the victim to bring reports

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Speaker 1: and crime scene photographs and again have that overall understanding

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Speaker 1: of what you are seeing on the victim's body and

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Speaker 1: how that lines up with what you saw at the scene.

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Speaker 1: It's imperative that this happens. It is sad, it's gut wrenching,

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Speaker 1: but it's necessary and it is a major part of

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Speaker 1: the homicide investigation. Now, I'm gonna tell y'all, I was

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Speaker 1: working a murder with a veteran homicide detective and it

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Speaker 1: was an unusual case and we were hoping that the

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Speaker 1: autopsy would generate some answers as to how this victim died.

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Speaker 1: We did not have a cause of death. So we

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Speaker 1: go to the autopsy and it's pretty standard. The medical

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Speaker 1: examiner and his assistant are there performing the autopsy, and

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Speaker 1: the detective and I are listening and trying to gather

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Speaker 1: as much information as we can, as well as share

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Speaker 1: information from the scene of the crime. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: this detective, after watching the medical examiner and this assistant work,

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Speaker 1: slides over to me and says, are you listening to this? Then?

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Speaker 1: I said, of course I'm listening. He said, I want

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Speaker 1: you to do something. I want you to listen again,

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Speaker 1: but think nineteen seventy soft porn. So I did. The

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Speaker 1: very next thing that I heard was the medical examiner say,

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Speaker 1: I need you to bend over a little more right there,

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Speaker 1: and the assistant said yes, doctor. Well you can only

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Speaker 1: imagine my reaction. So I started to kind of giggle.

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Speaker 1: You know that laughter when you're gonna laugh, and it's

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Speaker 1: completely inappropriate to be laughing. That's where I'm at. And

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Speaker 1: then I heard the medical examiner say, now she's up

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Speaker 1: on a step stool and she's trying to get right

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Speaker 1: over the injury to the victim, and he wants it

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Speaker 1: right dead, cinner. So he says, and I quote, bend

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Speaker 1: over a little more. That's it right there, and she

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Speaker 1: says yes, doctor. And then he says, can you move

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Speaker 1: your hips a little forward? Hold it, hold it, hold

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Speaker 1: it right there, right there, And she says right here, doctor,

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Speaker 1: and he said yes, right there, and she again says

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Speaker 1: yes doctor. Well, by now I'm about on the floor.

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Speaker 1: But I will tell you it changed how I can

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Speaker 1: survive mentally an autopsy. In our world, sometimes that's what

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Speaker 1: you have to do. Our humor is sometimes very dark

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Speaker 1: and a little twisted, but we can't spend all of

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Speaker 1: our time crying, so it's important to have that outlet.

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Speaker 1: It's important to have that support. Well, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you today we've got the goat. We've got the best

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Speaker 1: of the best. Joe Scott Morgan, Welcome to Zone seven. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I need a drink of water and uh maybe

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Speaker 1: a shot of bourbon after that that introduction, thanks Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: something to kind of calm my nerves a little bit. Yeah. Wow,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a real honor to be here. I

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Speaker 1: was just think back to all of the years that

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Speaker 1: I spent working in in the autopsy room, you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking back to you know, how you deal with things

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Speaker 1: and how you view it. Everybody has has a particular

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Speaker 1: way of handling those things that you you allow in

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Speaker 1: through your windows of the soul, your eyes and the

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Speaker 1: things you hear, things you smell, all of that. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have to, you know, change it up a little

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Speaker 1: bit in order to you know, continue to survive, to

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Speaker 1: climb that mountain your career, just to hang in. Some

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Speaker 1: days are better than others. But you're right. I tell

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Speaker 1: people many times that aren't used to being around that

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Speaker 1: dead and as a result of that, around their families

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Speaker 1: who have been through these horrible events because you're you're

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Speaker 1: really the when you work in my field and medical

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Speaker 1: legal death investigation, you're you're really one on one of

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Speaker 1: the families many many times because you talk to them

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Speaker 1: about a variety of different things, everything from identification to arrangements,

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Speaker 1: to their whereabouts, medical history. You really get to know

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Speaker 1: them and the family and the family dynamic. And I

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Speaker 1: think that there's a big part of us that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you'd like to reach out and give everybody a hug

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Speaker 1: and tell them everything's gonna be okay, but you know

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Speaker 1: that cost you something when you do that. I'm a

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Speaker 1: firm believer in the fact that we've got we all

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Speaker 1: have kind of a what I refer to as an

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Speaker 1: indwelling love bank. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: we're all human. There's only so much that you can give,

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Speaker 1: and if you try to give it all away to

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Speaker 1: everybody you come in contact with, there's nothing left for

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Speaker 1: those that are your family. You know, that are those

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Speaker 1: that you love, and so you have to be very

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Speaker 1: careful with that. It's it's something that has to be released.

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Speaker 1: Only you know one of those things, you know, break

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Speaker 1: glass in case of emergency, because if you went out hugging,

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Speaker 1: hugging everybody and trying to drive everybody's tears, it'd be

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Speaker 1: nothing left of you. You'd be an empty shell, and

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Speaker 1: many of us our empty shells. But it's certainly an

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Speaker 1: honor to be with you and to chat with you

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Speaker 1: today here on Zone seven. Well, it means the world

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Speaker 1: to me. And just in case there's anybody listening that

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Speaker 1: is not completely sure who you are. You are the

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Speaker 1: author of a fantastic book, Blood Beneath My Feet. You

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Speaker 1: are the host of the hit podcast Bodybags, and y'all,

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Speaker 1: that podcast is like no other. And you are a

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Speaker 1: distinguished scholar of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville State University. And

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Speaker 1: that's just a few things. But you're also a tremendous

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Speaker 1: father and grandfather, and loving husband and tremendous friend. Now,

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Speaker 1: you've worked a whole lot of scary, humbling, crazy cases,

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Speaker 1: but there's really nothing quite like this case in our world.

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Speaker 1: There's really not, without getting into the details quite yet,

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Speaker 1: but you know, just to kind of give folks a

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Speaker 1: baseline measurement, if you watch the news media incessantly, particularly

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Speaker 1: if it's influenced by true crime, you would think that

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Speaker 1: every single call that we were all on is some

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Speaker 1: kind of horror show. And the sad thing about that

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Speaker 1: is that it diminishes the cases that truly are horror shows.

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Speaker 1: You know, you get I think you build up. There's

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Speaker 1: a numbness or maybe a callous that's built up because

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Speaker 1: right now, as we're as we're chatting, there are people

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Speaker 1: out on the mean streets all over this country right

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Speaker 1: now doing the job that I used to do. I

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Speaker 1: no longer do it. I teach now. There are people

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Speaker 1: out there notifying families of deaths. There are people out

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Speaker 1: there trying to understand things that the general public cannot

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Speaker 1: even begin to imagine. And there are cases that you'll

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Speaker 1: never hear about. They're out there everywhere. You have to

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Speaker 1: look at things and try to get an idea. Many

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Speaker 1: times I have to reflectively think about, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: how does this case stack up compared to other ones

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Speaker 1: that I've seen. You know, you find elements in every

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Speaker 1: case that are similar to previous ones that you've worked,

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Speaker 1: or that you've reported on, or that you've taught about

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But when it comes to Melissa's case,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you, to the best of my recollection.

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Speaker 1: I don't recall case that is like this in this

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Speaker 1: particular location geographically, if you look at the geographical profile,

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Speaker 1: the nature with which her remains were treated, I think,

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Speaker 1: and by extension, I think going back into the anti

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Speaker 1: modern state, how she was treated as a person in life.

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Speaker 1: You can draw a lot of conclusions based upon how

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Speaker 1: she was eventually found. You can draw a lot of

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Speaker 1: conclusions about what her life may have been like. And

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Speaker 1: it's a very sad that's said commentary. It is, and

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Speaker 1: just for the people that may be joining us, I

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Speaker 1: just want to give a brief overview. So Melissa Wolfenberger

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Speaker 1: went missing. She was last seen by her mom November ninth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. Her husband said he last saw her

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Speaker 1: December of nineteen ninety eight. Her husband at that time

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Speaker 1: was working at a place called Action Glass. He never

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Speaker 1: reported Melissa missing, never called her family looking for her,

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Speaker 1: never tries to find her, never tells the children what

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Speaker 1: actually happened to her, moves out of their shared home

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Speaker 1: and goes to South Georgia, moves to a completely different

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Speaker 1: city now and lives under an assumed name. Then April

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Speaker 1: the twenty ninth, nineteen ninety nine, a severed school is

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Speaker 1: found on Avon Avenue in a single trashbag June third

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Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety nine. Arms and leg are found also

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Speaker 1: in trash bags down the street from Avon Avenue. In

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Speaker 1: November of nineteen ninety nine, Mom finally starts reporting Melissa

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Speaker 1: missing to law enforcement and they finally take a missing

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Speaker 1: person's report. A detective from another jurisdiction gets involved, and

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Speaker 1: when he sees that the skull is on Avon Avenue,

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Speaker 1: which is the same street where Melissa's husband worked at

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Speaker 1: Action Glass, he goes to Atlanta with another Atlanta detective

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Speaker 1: who already made the connection and says, hey, this has

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Speaker 1: got to be Melissa Wolfenburger. We need to do some

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Speaker 1: dental comparison. The remains on March the fourth, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three are identified as Melissa Wolfenburger. Now, one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to make clear a lot of times, y'all,

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Speaker 1: we say things like she was beheaded and dismembered, and

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Speaker 1: we move on. She was beheaded and dismembered, and we

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Speaker 1: move on. The reason Joe Scott Morgan is here today

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Speaker 1: is so we can talk about what that means, what

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Speaker 1: your body goes through, what that entails for the killer

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Speaker 1: to do so. Again, we're going to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: It is messy, it is gross, it is violet, it

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Speaker 1: is gut wrenching, and it is horrific to think that

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Speaker 1: anybody has gone through this. But again, in our world,

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Speaker 1: we don't have a choice. Joe's Scott to me, there's

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Speaker 1: at least four crime scenes. There's where she was killed,

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Speaker 1: which I believe was her home that she shared with Christopher.

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Speaker 1: There's the transport vehicle, which I'm going to make the

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Speaker 1: assumption was his work truck. There's the disposal site, and

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Speaker 1: then there's wherever her torso is. That's the progression that

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Speaker 1: you have to look at. You know, when you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about the deposition of remains, you come scratch

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Speaker 1: your head and you think, you know, the individual who

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Speaker 1: would be depositing remains would be somebody that would feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable in the particular area where they would have to

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Speaker 1: get out of a vehicle. We're assuming that they would

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Speaker 1: have been in a motor vehicle unloading the remains and

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Speaker 1: then taking them after being unloaded individually and taking them

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Speaker 1: and depositing them in a particular location, and so that

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Speaker 1: that implies a level of comfort when you look at

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Speaker 1: you know, you begin to think about a suspect that

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Speaker 1: might be involved in something like this, because the remains

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Speaker 1: didn't just accidentally wind up where they wound up. They

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Speaker 1: had to be moved to those locations, and you think

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Speaker 1: about the nature in which the remains are found. You know,

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Speaker 1: one thing that's kind of a thread that runs through

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Speaker 1: this is the fact that you've got bags that are

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Speaker 1: associated with this. That that implies an attempt to maintain

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Speaker 1: containment and when it comes to blood tissue, your painstakingly

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Speaker 1: having to wrap something. Now, they may not have been

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Speaker 1: wrapped like you would think if somebody went to a

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Speaker 1: butcher shop and ordered, you know, a piece of meat

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Speaker 1: where they wrap it in a butcher paper and tie it,

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Speaker 1: tape it up and all that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: still they're wrapped and individually and so that's that's key,

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Speaker 1: I think, and the person it also has a lot

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Speaker 1: of insight into the individual that would feel comfortable enough

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Speaker 1: to take remains and load them into their own vehicle

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Speaker 1: and transport them a specific distance to the deposition site.

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Speaker 1: They don't have any fear of being pulled over that

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Speaker 1: they're comfortable, they know where all the intersections are. They

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Speaker 1: know where people are walking, they know what time of

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Speaker 1: day to show up. That says a lot to me,

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Speaker 1: at least about the person that would have taken Melissa's remains,

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Speaker 1: loaded them up, and then deposited them. Well, it certainly

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Speaker 1: takes away a stranger. I mean, a stranger wouldn't know

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Speaker 1: where her husband worked. And again, this road is very narrow,

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Speaker 1: you know it, yea. And on one whole side it's

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Speaker 1: lined with woods and then a little divit in railroad

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Speaker 1: tracks and then on the other side nothing but small businesses. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I gotta interject something right here. Avon Avenue. I

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Speaker 1: am very familiar with Avon Avenue over the course of

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Speaker 1: over the course of my career. It's probably in the

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Speaker 1: top five streets in Atlanta that I worked deaths on.

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Speaker 1: I won't say they were all homicides, but I worked

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Speaker 1: a lot of deaths on Avon. In case anyone's wondering, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do have a number one street in Atlanta. It's

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Speaker 1: called James P. Brawley. For whatever reason, I caught a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases on James P. Brawley over the years.

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Speaker 1: And we used to think about that quite a bit

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Speaker 1: at the Medical Examiner's office when I worked there. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Avon Avenue. I would say that to find a

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Speaker 1: body on Avon Avenue if you're a police officer, maybe

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Speaker 1: even if you're a resident there and you're walking about

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Speaker 1: and you notice something would not necessarily be a shock

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Speaker 1: because it's not like it's unheard of. However, even given

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Speaker 1: that callous you know, use that word earlier, you know

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Speaker 1: that that comes along with death, and certainly I think

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Speaker 1: maybe to a certain degree people that frequent that area,

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Speaker 1: Even with that thrown into the mix, the condition in

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Speaker 1: which she was found would even shock the most hardhearted

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Speaker 1: among us, I think, the most jaded, if you will,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's truly, it's truly a shocking thing to

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Speaker 1: come across a dismemberment, and that's plainly what we have

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Speaker 1: in this case. And again that that goes to a

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Speaker 1: particular type of person that would be capable of doing this,

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Speaker 1: because not only do you in cases of dismemberment that

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Speaker 1: I've worked throughout my career, I was always kind of

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Speaker 1: interested in the individual that had done this because most

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Speaker 1: of the time now I have had cases where individuals

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Speaker 1: have had drug overdoses and they might not have had

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Speaker 1: a hand in the drug overdose, but they would attempt

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Speaker 1: to dismember the body so that they could get rid

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Speaker 1: of the body, so that the body wasn't around. But

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about somebody that would perpetrate

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Speaker 1: a homicide and then you have to take it to

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Speaker 1: another level beyond that, that's what's so shocking. I think

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Speaker 1: when you really sit down and you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about this and you think about who who would be

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Speaker 1: capable of doing who would want to do this? Because

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Speaker 1: you would, you would take take a person, this beautiful

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Speaker 1: young woman, and destroy her life by killing her, and

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Speaker 1: knowing full well that she's got babies, and that she's

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Speaker 1: got a family, and that she works, and that life

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Speaker 1: is hard, and her life is going to end this way.

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Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't just stop with the homicide. It's

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Speaker 1: the desecration of her remains. It's a very very disrespectful thing.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the part for me. You've already

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Speaker 1: killed her. I mean, it's already as bad as it

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Speaker 1: almost can be. You've done the worst thing to her

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Speaker 1: almost that you could do to her. Her life has ended.

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Speaker 1: But you don't stop there. And this as you're saying,

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Speaker 1: this was a process, this took equipment, This took time,

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Speaker 1: This took items like chlorots and trash bags and a saw.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't a quick, easy accomplishment. No, it wasn't. And

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Speaker 1: that's the thing about dismemberments that sounds so odd coming

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Speaker 1: out of my mouth, because I think, you know, people

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Speaker 1: are kind of taken aback when you say say those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. But you know, we in forensics, we

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Speaker 1: think about these things, you know, and you have to

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Speaker 1: It's like you were talking about earlier, Cheryl, where you

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Speaker 1: have to consider these things and bear witness to them

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Speaker 1: and then makes sense out of them. You have to

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Speaker 1: get past the bearing witness to in order to get

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Speaker 1: down to the science of it. You know, when you

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Speaker 1: see this case, you think about and rightly you mentioned

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Speaker 1: you have to have instruments in order to pull this off.

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Speaker 1: I think many people assume that this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a very easy undertaking, and it's not, because not

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Speaker 1: only do you have to have appropriate tools in order

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Speaker 1: to do this, you have to understand at some level

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Speaker 1: something about anatomy. And it doesn't necessarily have to be

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Speaker 1: human anatom it could be animal anatomy. You have to

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Speaker 1: understand where the weakest points of the body are in

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Speaker 1: order to take advantage of that, because sawing, whether it

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Speaker 1: is a handheld saw or a mechanical saw, is not

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Speaker 1: something that's to be undertaken lightly. And then there's the

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Speaker 1: human element of it, because it's not simply about using

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Speaker 1: a saw. Many times, what I have found in cases

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Speaker 1: of dismemberment is that the killer soon realizes or the

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Speaker 1: person that's doing the dismembering soon realizes that they can't

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Speaker 1: just use a saw because they have to get through

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Speaker 1: a soft tissue and many times a saw is insufficient

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Speaker 1: to that task. I think a lot of people believe that, well,

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Speaker 1: if I just have a saw, I can make this happen,

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Speaker 1: and it will make it easier. Well, not necessarily. A

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Speaker 1: lot of it depends upon the type of saw that

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Speaker 1: you're using. Sometimes you have to use a knife to

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Speaker 1: get through soft tissue. I mean we do in the morgue,

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Speaker 1: be perfectly blunt. We use saws in the morgue, and

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Speaker 1: you have to be able to get down to those

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Speaker 1: bony structures in order to do this. Because one thing

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Speaker 1: you quickly discover is that if you try to go

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Speaker 1: through a body with a saw and you're going through

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Speaker 1: soft tissue, you wind up making a bigger mess than

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Speaker 1: you anticipated in making. Whereas if if you trimmed a

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Speaker 1: way soft tissue and you went directly through bone, it's neater,

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Speaker 1: it's quicker, and it's not as over the top as

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Speaker 1: going through soft tissue, muscle, vessels, all those sorts of

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Speaker 1: things that are involved in attacking the entire body with

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Speaker 1: a saw. And so people generally learn that on their

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Speaker 1: first pass at at dismembering a body, they suddenly come

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Speaker 1: to the conclusion, oh, I need to trim this away

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Speaker 1: in order to make this work. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that has always happened, and in many cases where

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Speaker 1: people you know, suddenly had a revelatory moment, I think

341
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Speaker 1: when they're up to their elbows and blood tissue. With

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Speaker 1: the cases that you have worked where there was a beheading,

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Speaker 1: was there also a dismemberment of the arms and legs

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Speaker 1: or is that rare for even you? Not necessarily. One

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Speaker 1: of the interesting things that you'll find with dismemberment cases,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about cases that I've personally worked and

347
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Speaker 1: then cases that I've covered as a forensics analyst in

348
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: the news, is that people go in thinking that they're

349
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Speaker 1: going to complete the task. That's what's so curious about

350
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: Melissa's case is that we have dismemberment of the head

351
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Speaker 1: and then the limbs, but torso has never been found.

352
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Speaker 1: And the torso is the biggest task. It contains the

353
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Speaker 1: most weight, and it is the biggest mess. And I'm

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Speaker 1: just you know, we talked about how graphic this conversation

355
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Speaker 1: would be, but this is the reality of it, that

356
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Speaker 1: your true nemesis. How do you quarter a human remain

357
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Speaker 1: to the point where it is there is utility in

358
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Speaker 1: your movement because remember we started the conversation off talking

359
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Speaker 1: about deposition of remains, you know, the depositing of her

360
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Speaker 1: remains out in this location along Avon and I think

361
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Speaker 1: Harford Avenue. It's like an intersection a cross street. I

362
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Speaker 1: think was hard Harford and Avon. And well there were

363
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Speaker 1: you know, two separate, you know, incidents here, but relative

364
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Speaker 1: to deposition. But what happens to the torso, because that's

365
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: going to be when you're talking about head and extremities.

366
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's easy. That is the easier

367
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Speaker 1: of the task though, because now you're left with this

368
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Speaker 1: torso that is, you know, by all rights, the most

369
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Speaker 1: problematic to get rid of. What are you going to

370
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Speaker 1: do with it? You know, an arm, a leg, even

371
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Speaker 1: ahead head, that's something that can be taken and disposed

372
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Speaker 1: of quite readily. I started my career off in South Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there were a number of cases where

374
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Speaker 1: people would decapitate bodies and tossed it into the swamp

375
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Speaker 1: and they would never be seen again. And you know,

376
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Speaker 1: I'm thinking right now, I'm reflecting back. You know where

377
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Speaker 1: I'm going with this is the Derman case. We still

378
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: have They have still yet fun mister Derman's head in

379
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: that particular case, and so you think about that. But

380
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Speaker 1: when you're talking about Torso, that's a true obstacle for

381
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Speaker 1: a perpetrator, and you have to think about, well, what

382
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: would they have done with it. One of the interesting

383
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: things I think is looking back on this case and

384
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Speaker 1: thinking about it, I wonder if the perpetrator, for whatever reason,

385
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: sat around and considered, what am I going to do

386
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Speaker 1: with the remains? I've done this horrible thing. I've killed

387
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: this beautiful woman. I have essentially taken her apart. You've

388
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: got the easy part with the extremities in the head,

389
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: and you just take them and you you tossed them

390
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: away randomly, But then you get back and what are

391
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: you going to do with a torso? Is it something

392
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: that you didn't take with you out there? You know,

393
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: because my mind would think, well, okay, we found extremities

394
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: and we found a head, and granted it was in

395
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: days apart when these were found. Why would there not

396
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: be a torso out there somewhere? So you think, well,

397
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: did this individual just get fed up and frustrated and

398
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: decided well this is really going to stand out? So

399
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: they went to the closest dumpster. Maybe they went to

400
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: a distant dumpster, because if you wrapped a torso up

401
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: in plastic bags and you don't have you know, what

402
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: we refer to as dumpster divers, they're gonna come along.

403
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: That torsos could be in Fulton County landfill, never to

404
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: be seen again. Certainly this far down the line, it

405
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: would be gone completely by now. That could very well

406
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: be what happened, because I can tell you one thing,

407
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: this would not be something that would be easily disposed

408
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: of with fire and not be noticed. There's a lot

409
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: of pedestrian traffic in this area. Traditionally, there always has been.

410
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 1: You've got a certain level of homeless population that lives

411
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Speaker 1: in that area. You've got people that just like to walk.

412
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Speaker 1: You've got people that many times are engaged in let's

413
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: just say, nefarious behavior. Many times they noticed things. People

414
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: notice things out there. That's why I think that whoever

415
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: did this was very familiar with the area. They felt

416
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: a certain level of comfort, I think, and to a

417
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: certain degree. You can't discount the possibility of laziness, you know,

418
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: access and opportunity. If it was this husband and he

419
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: worked very very close to this area. And for all

420
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: I know, he may have gone out, you know, at

421
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: some point in time and have a smoke break and

422
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: then suddenly, you know, notice this area. Maybe I don't know,

423
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: he went for a walk around the area at some

424
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: point in time he saw you know, he saw low

425
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: growth scrub. Maybe he ventured off into an you know,

426
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: an abandoned lot. So he had he had kind of

427
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: a feel for it and would understand it and understand

428
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: the people. Because all you have to do at that business,

429
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: the glass company, you can get an old chair and

430
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: sit there on the loading dock or whatever and just

431
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: watch people just walk them down the street. They'll wave

432
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: at you, you know, after a period of time, they

433
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: come by, they ask you for things, you interact with them,

434
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: and over a period of time, as you're there, you

435
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: begin to know the neighborhood because you're kind of part

436
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: of the neighborhood, so that that implies kind of a

437
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: comfort and it goes and this is nothing new under

438
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: the sun. Again. You know, when you're profiling crimes and

439
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: you think about this, people that do profiling, they often

440
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: talk about that the perpetrators many times act in their

441
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: own air is those areas that they feel the most

442
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: comfortable with in order to do these deeds. It's not like,

443
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: you know, he would have done this and then driven,

444
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: I don't know, driven to Valdosta, Georgia to look for

445
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: a spot to deposit her body. I don't know. Maybe

446
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: this man had a history in Valdosta, Georgia, but I

447
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: guarantee you didn't feel as comfortable down there as he

448
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: would where her body was originally found. Let me ask

449
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: you this, if Melissa were in fact pregnant, which is

450
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: something she's told to Judge, something she told her mother,

451
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: do you think if he believed that she was pregnant,

452
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: and if her husband was responsible for this murder, do

453
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: you think he would have buried his child, meaning her Torso. Wow,

454
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: that's a fascinating point when you think about it. That

455
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: goes to an idea that we talk about in clandestine burials,

456
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: and it is the construct or of memorialization of the dead.

457
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: Profilers talk about it a lot because you think about

458
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: what happens in the case of memorializing. What are you

459
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Well, it means that even

460
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: though somebody is dead, you take care of the body

461
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: and the way you treat it afterwards. Well, it isn't

462
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: that a fascinating thing to think about? Because if Melissa

463
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: had in fact been pregnant, and she has mentioned this,

464
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: her torso essentially becomes a coffin. Just let that sink

465
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: in just for a second. People have probably entertained this,

466
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: and probably I'm not. You know, it's not like I'm

467
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: the brightest man on earth. People have probably thought about this.

468
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: You know, her body is a conveyance for this unborn child,

469
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: and somewhere deep in the dark recesses of an individual's mind,

470
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: they might look at her body that way, maybe unconsciously,

471
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to treat this in a special way because

472
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: it conveys the body of my unborn child, and so

473
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: they treat it different. But it seems like a lot

474
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: of trouble to go to because you know, the entire

475
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: body essentially is a vessel for the child. Why not

476
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: take the body and bury it intact? But it becomes

477
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: a bit more unmanageable if that's what you're doing. Torso

478
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: alone is more manageable, but yet it's very difficult to

479
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: dispose of. So I would be fascinated, really be fascinated

480
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: out in that area, in particular because there's there were

481
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: at one time a lot of abandoned structures that were

482
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: out in that area. There were some kind of wooded areas,

483
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, with a low growth scrub and that sort

484
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: of thing. Has the area over the years been gone

485
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: over sufficiently at that time if the torso had been

486
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: wrapped separately, which it would have had to have been

487
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: to prevent deposition of blood either at the scene or

488
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: in a vehicle, that people would really notice it really

489
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: stand out relative to the torso. You would look for

490
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: early on, You would look for turn to earth out

491
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: in those areas, because you know, people that do actual

492
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: clandestine burials, they think that if they turn the soil

493
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: put a body into a hole that they've dug, and

494
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: then take the soil that they've recently turned, put it

495
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: back on top of it, and pat it down. It

496
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: all looks the same, and it doesn't. It never does

497
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: you destroy the vegetation that's on top of the earth.

498
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: You've certainly destroyed the continuity in the physical composition of

499
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: the soil that may have been there for a hundred

500
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,239
Speaker 1: years and has never had a tool put to it.

501
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: So it stands out to people that are trained to

502
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: look at that sort of thing, you know, they look

503
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: at what's called the topography of a location when it

504
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: comes to clandestine burial. So I really wonder if a

505
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: thorough search of that entire area was done, those areas

506
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: that would have been readily accessible to the prime suspect

507
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: that would have been familiar with the area. Well, that's

508
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: one thing we tried to do with Trace, sergeant, you

509
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: know Trace, and she went out there and worked her

510
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: two dogs and they both independently hit on a area

511
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: the same area, And so we thought, let's get some

512
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: ground penetrate and radar out here, like, let's do this

513
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: thing for exactly what you're talking about, and to give

514
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: listeners a visual of what Joe Scott's talking about. Imagine

515
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: underground just a series of triangles where you dig and

516
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: put the ground back. The triangles are upside down, so

517
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: visually you can see that part of the soul that's

518
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: been disturbed, just what he's saying. And visually, on ground

519
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: penetrate and radar, you can see it. And if there's

520
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: something under there, like bones or rods or guns or

521
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: whatever you might be looking for, you can see it.

522
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: So I mean again, I think it's maybe something we

523
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: need to go back and search the other side. We

524
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: searched to the left, but I think we need to

525
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: go to the right, especially with what you're talking about

526
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: with geographical profiling. Y'all know good and well. I could

527
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: not talk to Joe Scott Morgan for just one episode.

528
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: Once we got on a roll, we just could not stop.

529
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: So join us again next week as doctor Death leads

530
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: us to the conclusion of what he believes happened to

531
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: Melissa Wolfenberger. And I just want to tell everybody something

532
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: real quick. Joe Scott is one of those folks. He

533
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: don't want nothing from you, but if he can do

534
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: something for you, he's going to be the first person

535
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: at your front door. And this podcasting game is competitive

536
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: and there are some cutthroat folks out there, and when

537
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: I thought, well, okay, I might try this, he was

538
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: the first person I called, and I said, do you

539
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: have any advice? And his classic response, should have a seat.

540
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: He told me the good and the bad and the

541
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: ugly and what I need to look out for, and

542
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, was so supportive, to the point he walked

543
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: me through every step that you would need to take

544
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: in order to set one up and even be remotely

545
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: ready for that first launch. And then he calls me.

546
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: He calls me a lot, and he gives me advice,

547
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 1: and he reminds me, and he encourages me and supports me.

548
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,919
Speaker 1: And that's something y'all wouldn't know. And again, he don't

549
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: want no accolade. He's probably not happy I'm saying this now,

550
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: but his podcast is so good y'all need to click

551
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: off this one and go to his immediately. But he's

552
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: that great that he's like, of course, I'll come on yours.

553
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: And I just want everybody to know he is not

554
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: only a part of my z own heaven. He lives

555
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: that philosophy for a lot of us. And so I

556
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 1: just want to publicly thank you for who you've been

557
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: to me for a long time, and I appreciate everything

558
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: about you. Look keep back. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this

559
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: is Zone seven h