1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 2: Welcome to Day It Happened Here, a podcast about I 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 2: don't know, this is coming out like Tuesday, right, maybe Wednesday. 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: You probably know what this podcast is about. If you don't, 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 2: it's about things falling apart putting it back together again. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 2: I'm your host Mia Wong. 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 3: With me is James Hi Mayh and I'm very excited 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 3: to to lend some stuff. I'm sure to be great. 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: Nothing, well, okay, the good news that the first guy 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: we're talking about died. That's that's the only good news. Great, great, 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: more good news. But we're doing some episodes about the 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 2: Daily Wire. You're gonna get a lot more actual stuff 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 2: about the Daily Wire in the next two episodes. This 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: is the this is the preliminary background information episode. But 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: you know, for people who aren't familiar with the Daily Wire, 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 2: the Daily Wire is a very large and very powerful 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: right wing media empire. You know, Ben Shapiro's people, Matt 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 2: Walsh is there, and they are They've become increasingly powerful 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: because of their ability to drive the actions and sort 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: of like not even really mid level, like high mid 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: high level like Republican officials, particularly at a state level, 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: towards you know, horrific anti trans policies stuff like that. Yep, 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: they've had this incredible divorced dad power of those two guys. 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: Like it's like a yeah, it's like a Pokemon situation, 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: you know, like it just it's inside, it's like shaken ball, 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: but sometimes they let it out and control their Republican 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: body with it. Yeah, and so okay, you know. But 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: in order to really sort of understand who these people 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: are and why they're able to sort of be like this, 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: we need to talk about the ways that this is new, 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: because you know, there's always been of writing, like Christian 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: media figures who do terrible stuff, but the way the 33 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: daily wire works is different than this stuff has worked 34 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: in the past. And in order to understand what is 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: different about this than these sort of like previous eras 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: of like Christian antiqueer violence, we need to talk about neoliberalism. 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: So this is this is not the normal starting place. 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: You're talking about the religious right, but if you want 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: to actually understand what's happening right now, you have to 40 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 2: go back to the origin and structure of neoliberalism so 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: you can understand how it's shaped. Right when Christian organizing 42 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: the last about fifty years. I want to start this 43 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: by talking about a guy who is not normally considered 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: part of the Christian right at all. In fact, he's 45 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: not even an American and his greatest influence is on 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: his home country of Germany. The man I'm talking I 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: want to talk about is Wilhelm rope Key. I've mentioned 48 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: him on this show before, but that was several years ago. 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: Now he is not a very well known figure, and 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: that's not good because he is one of the smartest 51 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 2: and one of the most dangerous neoliberals. So in order 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: to really get a sense of who rope Key is, 53 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: we need to talk about the beginnings of neoliberalism. 54 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: So we need to. 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: Talk about Hyak and his sort of attempt to recruit 56 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: a bunch of new liberals to oppose. While mostly to 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: oppost communism, it later becomes about also opposing fascism. But 58 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: the problem that Hyak has is that so in the 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: nineteenth this is happening in the nineteen twenties and really 60 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties. The problem is that the people who 61 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: Hayak have been trying to recruit from Germany a dream 62 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: the thirties all joined the Nazi Party. So in Many 63 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: such cases. Yeah, it's a real issue for them. 64 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, once again the Libs have let us down. Shocked. 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, you know, in the in the nineteen forties 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: after the war, when Hyak is trying to do this again, 67 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: he turns to William rope Key instead of the original 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: guys who've been Nazis because Ropeke had been out of 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: the country for the whole Nazi things, so he kind 70 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: of had skipped out on it. 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: Okay, smart move on his front. 72 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know this this gets him an invite 73 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: to like Montpellier, and so the whole sort of the 74 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: origins of neoliberalism and rope Key is he's one of 75 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: the architects of what's called ordoliberalism. So the Order Liberals 76 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: are one of the factions of you know, they're one 77 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 2: of the factions of neoliberalism. What's interesting about the way 78 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: We're gonna talk a bit about what they believe. But 79 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: what's interesting about the Order Liberals is that they're not 80 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: really economists. I mean, some of them are, but it's 81 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: a lot of sociologists. And this means that the way 82 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: that they think about the world is very different than 83 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: the way that like Hayek or you know, like a 84 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: like von Mises or like all the you know, the 85 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 2: sort of like mainline like guys who are economists in 86 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: the neoliberal movement think the order. Liberal roles believe that 87 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: there is a natural capitalist hierarchy in a society that 88 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 2: produces stability. But they also understand that capitalism in general 89 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: and neoliberalism, like specifically the thing they're trying to bring about, 90 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: adamizes people. You know, it destroys social bonds, It tears 91 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: the fabric of communities apart, and it destroys the notion 92 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: of any collective self identification, replacing them with sort of 93 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: market exchange and empty consumer symbols masquerading as identity. You 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: know thing for example, the rise of stand culture or 95 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: i mean, god like the thing we do, which is 96 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: like it's. 97 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: Going to say streamers, you know, so that's friends on 98 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: your phone. 99 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is extremely bad, and rope Key realizes 100 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: this is a real issue for the success of neoliberalism, 101 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: because people don't actually like being completely autonomized market agents 102 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: with no real social relations other than wages and contracts. 103 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: And you know, if presented with these options, they might, 104 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: for example, turn to communism or god forbid, anarchism, yeah, 105 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: but Rokey, you know, Rokey is on the side of 106 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: bad and. 107 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: The side of bad. Yeah, I think a great title 108 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 3: for the episode side of that me his biography God. 109 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: Rokey's conclusion from this is that you can't just rely 110 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: on the market passively coming into existence, because if markets 111 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: were supposed to passively come into existence, or if they 112 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: were you know, like the sort of like spontaneous order 113 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: thing that talks about when he's lying, like, if that 114 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: was actually true, they would just have there would be 115 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: everything would be market economies already. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 116 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: It's like no, like we would have had the exact 117 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: same economic and political system for the last thirty thousand years, 118 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: but we haven't. So in order to do this, you 119 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: have to make people into good neoliberal market subjects, and 120 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: this requires the intervention of the state. The product of 121 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: this is that Roki is one of the architects of 122 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: what's called structural policy. These are specific state policy things 123 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: that are used to create markets by you know, sometimes 124 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: it's it's there's a whole variety of ways that this happens, 125 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: but by acting on and transforming like physically people right 126 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: like what they do, what they believe, how they congregates, 127 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: like what things they're allowed not allowed to do, what 128 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: things are incentivized. This, this is structural policy. This is 129 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: the origin of what's later going to be called structural 130 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: or reform, which is the kind of stuff that the 131 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 2: IMF does to an economy to create markets by taking 132 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: food from the mouths of babies and making the babies 133 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: work to get the food. 134 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great to see any way. 135 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that part of neoliberalism broadly, a lot of 136 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: that comes from order liberalism, and it comes from people 137 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: like Roki. But rope Key realizes that, you know, there's 138 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: a problem of structural policy as an abstract concept, right, 139 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: which is that in order for it to work, you 140 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: need to a take control of the state, because again 141 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: this is a state, but there is a top down 142 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: state reform project, right, and be there has to be 143 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: something beyond the state to create the kind of subjectivity 144 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 2: you need to instill, you know, to instill in people 145 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: to make them behave quote unquote as market agents. Right, 146 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: you can't just use the state in the market to 147 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: make people behave in the way that they're supposed to, 148 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: you know, to be good sort of like workers for 149 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: the workers for the Great market. You need something else 150 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 2: is specifically, neoliberalism needs its own form of collectivity. It 151 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: needs its own thing that creates social bonds between people. 152 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: It needs its own kind of sort of identification to 153 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: combat the sort of collective society of the left. Now. 154 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: Part of Ropekey's plan, and this is something you share 155 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: us with the other order liberals is that they want 156 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 2: to do this with you know, they want to use 157 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: the patriarchal family and small businesses as like the sort 158 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 2: of social basis of all of their sort of routing politics. 159 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: This is very endurable routing politics stuff they also have. Weirdly, 160 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: this is one of the things. It's in the fifties 161 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: and sixties. There's a lot of sort of on every 162 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: side of the political aisle, like kind of romantic utopianism 163 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: ish about like the countryside. You know, this can swing 164 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: wildly between like Mao or like the Japanese fascists or 165 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: the neoliberals. They have this dream of sort of turning 166 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: rural areas into these like bastions of like reaction against 167 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: the left, and that did kind of happen in the US, 168 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: but it didn't happen like it happened because the rural 169 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: economy was completely annihilated and replaced with like a series 170 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: of meth labs, not because I guess technically was a 171 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: dowddream result. It's just that it didn't it. It wasn't 172 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: the sort of idyllic like good like farmer family things 173 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 2: that these people wanted. 174 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, they got there in an interesting way. Yeah, 175 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: with like massive agribusiness and meth labs are your two 176 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 3: choices in life? 177 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like and you know, so like like yes, 178 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: they this is one of these things where instead of 179 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: achieving their goals through cultural means, they achieve their goals 180 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: through like the massive uh like unbelievable economic violence. But 181 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: you know, okay, so that's that's the other thing that 182 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: that and that's all sort of standard neoliberal theory, right. 183 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: But what makes rope Key kind of unique is that 184 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: he's really one of the first of these people to 185 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: realize that you need another force, and that force is 186 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: the church. And this is something that people don't talk 187 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: about a lot when they talk about neoliberalism, but a 188 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: lot of these people are very very deeply Christian. Here's 189 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: Ropeke talking about his ideal society, quote rendering to the king, 190 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: what is owed to the king, but also giving to 191 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: God what belongs to God? 192 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: So what belongs to God? 193 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: And now one now I'm concerned. I mean he's it's 194 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: funny because like he's taken the Bible verse like that 195 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: you're taking to the render under Caesar, like what belongs 196 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: to Caesar, render under blah blah blah blah blah. But 197 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: like it's he's made it enormously more alarming. Yeah, yeah, deeply, 198 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: like because like the thing about the render under Caesar 199 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: is that that's a statement about about like living under 200 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, right, right, Like this is just he 201 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: just wants you to fucking have a king. Yeah, give 202 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: shit to everyone needs to a God who is also 203 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: the king. 204 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: Right, It's not even like like the necessity of the 205 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: state thing, like you just dump dumped in like a point, 206 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 3: let's hereditary, inbred person to give money to. 207 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean she's not like I So, okay, I 208 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: I should I should probably not slander him as thoroughly 209 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: as I'm doing here because I don't actually quite think 210 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: he literally becomes a monarchist. But she does believe that 211 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: there should be like I don't know, you describe it 212 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: like there should be democratic parties, but that like actual 213 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: economic policy shouldn't be like managed by them, Like you 214 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: need like a super a thing above the democracy, which 215 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: is the IMF, to make sure that there's the little 216 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: the little democratic people don't like start getting any ideas 217 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: about the economy. 218 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: Like technocracy like a. 219 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you don't put but like the thing 220 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: with the technocracy and this is this is genuinely kind 221 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: of what has been happening in Europe is that like 222 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: living under a technocracy really sucks. Yes, like it sucks 223 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: like politically, it sucks materially, and it sucks like emotionally. 224 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: And you know, the right has been able to make 225 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: a lot out of sort of like this opposition to 226 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: like the global bureaucracies or whatever, which is like, okay, 227 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 2: like you guys made these things in the first place, 228 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: Like I, I, you know, you don't get a fucking 229 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: complain about the bureaucracies that you set up and ran, 230 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 2: but you know I haven't stomped him. Yeah, but but 231 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: rope key, rope key. 232 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: You know. 233 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 2: So a lot of the other order liberals become really 234 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: sort of like you know, are become obsessed with taking 235 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: over the IMF, which they do and they take over 236 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: the World Bank and they become you know, they do 237 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: that stuff. Rope Key is obsessed with using the using 238 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 2: religion as like another kind of social force that he 239 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: can bind the othererberal sort of movement together with. And 240 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: so he sets out to form like like a kind 241 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: of like reactionary Catholic international to bring neoliberalism to the world. 242 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: That is a troubling concept. 243 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it doesn't work, which is the good news. Well, 244 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: and the problem is it doesn't work. It's not that 245 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't work because it's a bad idea. The reason 246 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: that it doesn't work is that he's trying this in 247 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: like the fifties and sixties, and it is too early 248 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: for that shit. Yea, Like you know, I mean, and 249 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: this is something I feel like I should at some 250 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: point I should actually do a deep dive into this 251 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: on the show. But I've talked about this a couple 252 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: of times. There is a very powerful form of kind 253 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: of like conservative Christian politics in Europe at this time. 254 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: It's like the Christian democracy movements. There's like if every 255 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: single country if you look at it like this, from 256 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: like the fifties through like the nineties, I mean, and 257 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: even to this day. In Germany, for example, like there 258 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: was a party called the Christian Democrats yea, and they 259 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: win like at least sixty percent of all elections, like 260 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: in Italy, they're in power for like forty years. But 261 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: the problem with Christian democracy from the perspective of someone 262 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: like Roki is that like if you sort of if 263 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: you take like these parties, right, these parties are you know, 264 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: these are these are the Christian Conservatives of this era. 265 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: They are way way too far left for uh, for Roki. 266 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: And that's not just a sort of like Rope, Look 267 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: got how far right Rope he is, although he is 268 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: so like if if you took Elder Moro, who's like 269 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: the great Italian Christian democratic statesman, multiple time Prime Minister 270 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: of Italy, killed in an insane web of conspiracies, like 271 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: if you, yeah, look i'd labor. Like if you took 272 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: Elder Morrow and you dropped him into the modern American Congress, 273 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: he would be to the He is again the leader, 274 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: he's like the leader of Italian Well he's technically from 275 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: the central left faction of the Christian Democrats, but he's 276 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: like the guy who's not a socialist or a communist, 277 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: like in terms of Italian politicians, who's not also a fascist? 278 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: And if you took him from like the seventies and 279 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: you plopped him into the American Congress, he would be 280 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: to the left of AOC, Like AOC is pro ceasefire 281 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: in Gaza, right, like she's she's pro ceasefire in Palestine. 282 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: Alder Morrow allowed the Popular Threat for the Liberation of Palestine, 283 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: which is the Palestinian Communist per mill terry, to operate 284 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: out of and carry out attacks like from Italy. Right, 285 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: like this guy you would like she is. 286 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 3: Well, if you go far enough right, you might get 287 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: that as well. 288 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: To be fair, no, but but it wouldn't be the PFLP, 289 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: though I guess I guess some of the German neo 290 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Nazis kind of liked them. But right, yeah, like like 291 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: imagine in the US any politician being like, yeah, the 292 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: PFLP could operate out of the US or only our 293 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: only our only condition is that we like we're gonna 294 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: let you operate, but we're not gonna like protect you 295 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: from uh like shim Bette or whatever, like the Masad. Yeah, 296 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: like racontact you from the Masade like that. But you 297 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: know you can you can do your stuff here? Could 298 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: you imagine that shit happening? This guy was a this 299 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: guy is a conservative in Europe right in like you know, 300 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: so this is what Rope he's responding to, like the 301 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 2: the existing Christian you know, and and and you know, 302 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: to some extent, like the Christian the Christian Democrats are 303 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 2: very very successful stopping communism, right, They're really good at it. 304 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: They stop communism from taking hold anywhere in Europe. But 305 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: they're not like capitalist enough for ROKEI. So when we 306 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: come back from this thing ROKEI would have loved, which 307 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: is ad transitions, we're going to talk about more of 308 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: what Rochi was doing and how it shaped neoliberalism and 309 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: the Christian right. Woo yay, we're back. Roki is having 310 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 2: a great time in his grave. We're gonna get the 311 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: thing that makes him spin at his grave, which I'm 312 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: very excited about. 313 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 3: Accident. 314 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: But okay, so you know, like as we've sort of 315 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: been talking about, the Christian Democrats are not the Christian 316 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 2: The Christian Democrats in a lot of countries are Catholic. 317 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: Some of them, like I think like there are Protestant 318 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: like Christian, but like yeah, but like a lot of 319 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: a lot of them are Catholic, So I mean, it's 320 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: it's it's a really interesting kind of like predecessor to 321 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: like modern fire right politics, where you get these like 322 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: both of the US and Latin America, where you get 323 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: these sort of like these Catholic Protestant alliances like this 324 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: is this is like Matt Walsh. You know, we're gonna 325 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: be talking about more in the next two days, Like 326 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 2: is a Catholic theocrat, right, but a lot of his 327 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: base are like you know, are like Baptists and like 328 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: the more even more feral charismatic Christians and like you know, 329 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: but but you know, but these these groups are able 330 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: to sort of work together, but they're not able. They're 331 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: not working together way that Rokey wants. So and this 332 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: is the thing that I think is very very scary 333 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: about rop Key, and and especially about the people who 334 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: took this model right, whether explicitly or implicitly, people who 335 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: people who figure out the same because a lot of people, 336 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: some people like kind of directly to go for Roki, 337 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: some people discover it through like I very weird readings 338 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 2: right wing readings of gramscy Uh, it's a whole thing. 339 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: I'll talk yeah one day I'm gonna get Eve on 340 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: the show and we're going to talk about that, because 341 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: it's fucking wild. 342 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: What the Yeah wow, I think that Gramscy is not 343 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 3: the most like inaccessible you know, like it. You know, 344 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 3: there there are some like left theorists who just just 345 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 3: vomit words so much so you can just project a 346 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 3: meaning on z them, But I have not. 347 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: I mean, they're thing their thing. This is This is 348 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: Eve Avenger's like thesis is that these people saw that 349 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: like leftist are reading Gramsey read Gramsey, and we're like, 350 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: we're going to do the right wing version of this. Okay, 351 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 2: yeah so now it's yeah, but you know, so so 352 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: so man, these people are rediscovering the same things that 353 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: Roki has figured out in like the fifties. But the 354 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: thing that Roki is doing is she's figured out all 355 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 2: the essential elements of the modern Christian right. You promote 356 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: neoliberalism with one hand, and then you sell the solution 357 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: to the atomization that your neoliberalism causes on the other 358 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: hand with the church and the church, yes, we will 359 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: serve as the basis of your political organization. 360 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is that is a there's a way of 361 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: doing it. 362 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this. It's an interesting there's a lot 363 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: of people who do this same thing. Like, at some 364 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 2: point I'm going to finish my I'm going to write 365 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: the thing about like this is actually what libertarianism is 366 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 2: to a broad extent, is that libertarians are the people 367 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 2: who like take the problems that the market produces and 368 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: then try to sell you a solution which is more 369 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: of those same problems but worded differently. 370 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so with people that weed now, so it's fine. 371 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but but you know so, but this is this 372 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: is the Christian version of it. But again, rope Key 373 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: to a large extent is smarter than the people who 374 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: come after him because he understands that this project, this 375 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: this this sort of Christian deliberal project is a constant 376 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: struggle against atimization that and and this adamization has to 377 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: be actively politically combated by the church, like both politically 378 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 2: and socially. And if it's not like actively combatd by 379 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: the Church, this whole project is going to start to 380 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: come apart. Now rope Key is not the man who's 381 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 2: going to lead the mob of Christian fanatics into the 382 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: Promised Land. And part of this is also because he 383 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: is like too racist for like the sixties, which again 384 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: like so like in the parts of the sixties when 385 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: he's saying the really racist stuff like segregation is legal 386 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: in the US, right, like yeah, like that, this is 387 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: this is this is where we're at with this off. 388 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: He's too racist for that. And the thing that he's 389 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: really really racist about is Rhodesia. Oh fucking hell like apearance, Yeah, yeah, 390 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: this is this is the Rhodesia pivot, which is that. Okay, 391 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: So the orthodox neoliberals, people like Hayak are pro Rodesia, right, 392 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: and this is Milton Friedman. These people are pro Rhodesia, 393 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: but they're smart enough to use dog whistles and talk 394 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 2: about it in terms of like economic terms and like 395 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: stability of gard and blah blah blah blah blah blah. 396 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 2: Rooke is just openly saying race war shit like I'm 397 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: not gonna read it, but he is effectively like the 398 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: spiritual forefadder of like the four chan mass shooter like that, 399 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: that's how racist he is. And you know, it turns 400 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 2: out that just again openly like open race war shit 401 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: is like too much for Hyak and he gets kicked 402 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 2: out of the mainsream neoliberal organizations, and tragically, tragically for 403 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: all of us. Rokey dies before you can see his 404 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: beloved Rhodesia reduced to a pulp by a series of 405 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 2: anti imperialist insurgencies. He dies before he dies, before all 406 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: of the Rhodesion or like society's fucking fuel supplies stored 407 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: in one spot blown out. 408 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 3: I can say, see, if they had a more distributed 409 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 3: market economy, man, they wouldn't have had just just that 410 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 3: all their fuel in one giant bottle which they burned. 411 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 3: Spoiler for anyone who hasn't been following the history of Rhodesia, 412 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 3: not the country anymore. 413 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank Christ. I actually don't think Christ. Fuck Christ. 414 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: Christ didn't do shit. 415 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank all those people who went out there and analyst, 416 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 3: et cetera. Yeah, and of course all the American people 417 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: who went out to join the Rhodesian military and killed 418 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: other white Rhodesians by accident, by shooting at people who 419 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 3: are theoretically on their side. Yeah, shout out to them. 420 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: We're not going to get into North Korea backing another 421 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 2: genocide in Zimbabwe here. That's also a fucking thing. I've 422 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 2: not doing. Apologies for that, because actually fucking sucked yeah, 423 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: but you know, okay, but he he dies before he 424 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: can see his beloved Rhodesia fucking eat shit die. But 425 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: what ROKEI had is a very clear version of the 426 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 2: the hierarchical, neolerbal society that he wanted to create. Right, 427 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: and he is very especially by the end of his life, 428 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: if he is very explicit about what this is. It 429 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: is a Christian, white supremacist, patriarchal world. And to build it, 430 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: the right is going to have to use the church 431 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: to stave off the alienization and adamization of capitalism. And 432 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: we're back now. In order to build this new world, 433 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: the world that Ropekey sort of imagines, the religious right, 434 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: the actual religious right that's going to bring this up 435 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: into fuition, sets off from a number of angles. I 436 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: think the most famous part of this is probably the 437 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: sort of moral majority infrastructure, which is this network of 438 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: like Think Tank's political advocacy Organization's TV Network's mailing lists, 439 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 2: like their own insane right wing colleges, god terrifying places. 440 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 2: But the fundamental social basis right, the fundamental collective space 441 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: around which the right is organized eyes was the church. 442 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of sociological talk in the last 443 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: few years about like quote unquote third spaces. So the 444 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: third space is supposed to be this place that's like 445 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: not the home or not the workplace that people can 446 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: exist in and form bonds in. And you know, people 447 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: talk about like bridge clubs blah blah blah blah blah. 448 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 2: But the thing about the US is that, like the 449 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: fucking YMCA, like all of these things that people talk 450 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: about as the third space are just the church in 451 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: different forms, yea literally church or a bunch of church 452 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: run events. 453 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, especially like the more like a rural you get 454 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 3: like it is this and this and this is one 455 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: of these things like that this was actually like one 456 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 3: of the sort of rear flanks of the workers movement, right, 457 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 3: which is that like in large parts of Appalachia, right, 458 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: you have a bunch of really really militant like miners 459 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 3: unions for example. 460 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 2: But then you know, but all of them are also 461 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 2: like are also are also Baptists. And that is fine 462 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: as long as you know you're you're you're dealing with 463 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: Baptists who are doing well. I mean, I say fine, 464 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: but like it's not an existential threat to the workers 465 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 2: movement when you're dealing with like like you know, like 466 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 2: it's easier for an arrow to like, sorry, it's easier 467 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 2: for a camel to walk through the head of a 468 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: pin than it is for a rich mandy go to 469 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: have in Baptists. But the moment that still starts flipping, 470 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: that's a very very dangerous sort of rear guard. You 471 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: see this Naian American communities where like you know, Asian 472 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Americans generally, like the last two generations like Millennials and 473 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: gen Z are tacking really really hard left, except the 474 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 2: fucking Christians who are like forming this this insane rearguard. 475 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: Because I've complained about this before around fucking I'm doing this. 476 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: This is this is this is a Christianity episode. I 477 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: could talk about this that the thing the thing about 478 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 2: Asian Christians is that they're all they're almost all like 479 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 2: first Schenk converts, so they all have convert brain, which 480 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 2: means completely fucking bat shit. Yeah. So you know, and 481 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 2: this is one of the things that we're talking about here, right, 482 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: is that the physically the church serves this very very 483 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: important engine kind of kind of revolution. There's this engine 484 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: of sort of spreading reactionary politics even among groups of 485 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: people who you normally wouldn't get that kind of sort 486 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: of right wing politics from. And this is where, you know, 487 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: face with the sort of leftward shifts in the US 488 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: and the sixties and seventies globally too, face with you know, 489 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: I mean literally the specter of revolutions and not even 490 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: like sometimes not even specters like you know, this is 491 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: post sixty eight, right, there's been a bunch of actual uprisings. Yeah, 492 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 2: and they're the place that they make their move is 493 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: by trying to seize control of various pieces of church infrastructure. 494 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: We're going to take a Catholic example and a Protestant example, 495 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: and we're not going to do the obvious Orthodox example 496 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: because we'd be here for a century. So let's start 497 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: with Roki's beloved Catholic church. I think I don't know 498 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 2: if I'm gonna do a little bit of left inside baseball. 499 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: I think people on the left tend to be really 500 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: obsessed with the like liberation theology people. But the problem 501 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: with liberation theology people is that they were around for 502 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: maybe like thirty years, right, But by the time you 503 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 2: get to the end of the eighties, these people are 504 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: all dead, right, Like they're either dead or they're like 505 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: Ortega and they've become these like literally they start calling 506 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: themselves the Third Way and are like cutting all these 507 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: deals with like really right wing social groups. But so 508 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: and so this means that the dominant politics of like 509 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 2: the capital, like t Capital c. The Catholic Church is 510 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 2: very gets very very right wing. Well it's not even 511 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: that as much as it gets right wing, but it 512 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: is very right wing. And the stuff that they're doing 513 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: is very, very scary. One of the things that I 514 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: don't think people really realize is that so that probably 515 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: you've heard the term gender ideology. Yeah, yes, yeah, do 516 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: you know where that's from? 517 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: Is it from I've fucking forgotten the place where Harry 518 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: Potter goes. 519 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: Hogwarts. Yeah. JFK is a fucking Johnny come late bastard. 520 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: Like she she she got into this game after that 521 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 2: ship had already started. Gender ideology is a term k rowling. 522 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: Jfk rowling is powerful speaking like this. 523 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: The term gender ideology comes from the Catholic Church, and 524 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: it's developed in reactions specifically to feminism, and very specifically 525 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: it's developed in reaction to to arguments from feminists that 526 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: that you know that gender is socially constructed, you know, 527 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: because in the Catholic Church's position is like, well, no, 528 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: that's heretical because obviously gender was assigned by God. And 529 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: because gender is asigned by God, like women are like 530 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: you know, women are like like submissive blah blah blah 531 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: blah blah. Yeah, like natural this is this is this 532 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: is the natural order. This isn't like a sociologically constructor thing. 533 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: This is the natural It's been in tusays Billy b 534 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: because they're like like unfathomably sexist. 535 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 3: Is this like around there, like Elaine Pagel's beef with 536 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 3: the church, I'm not sure of Blaine Pagel's if with 537 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: Elaine Pagel's God the Father Got the Mother. 538 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: I think this is a bit before my time. 539 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, this is for World History stands at 540 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 3: the University of California in common topic. 541 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think I think this is actually in the same. 542 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 3: I've played videos of her to my students, and definitely 543 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 3: in the eighties, like the vibe is powerfully eighties. 544 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I guess that's a bit late because so 545 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the generality, all this stuff comes out 546 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: of the early night. Well, I guess it's like early nineties. Okay, 547 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: So one of the things that happens is that a 548 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 2: lot of you know, in the nineties, the Catholic Church, 549 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: and they have a bunch of like rad fam allies here, 550 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: by the way, do you have this massive fight in 551 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: the un about like recognizing the right abortions and other 552 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: like sexual reproductive rights. And the Red Fems are pissed 553 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 2: off because I mean, there's a whole so they're they've 554 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: been they're aligned with the Catholic Church is like an 555 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: anti sex work thing and like an anti porn thing. 556 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: And then also like a lot of the Red Fems, well, 557 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: I gat, I got in so much trouble for saying this, 558 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: but like, holy shit, there's somebody those people are insanely 559 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: trenchs phobic. Yeah damn wow. But you know, but like this, 560 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: this is this, there's this massive battle inside the United 561 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: Nations between a bunch of feminists and or like feminists 562 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: who are like normal, and then like there's the shitty 563 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 2: radvm factions and the Catholic Church on the other side. 564 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: And Pope Benedict in particular goes like all out on 565 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: this stuff, both on the international level and in terms 566 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: of like local churches like goes on the offensive against 567 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: abortion and queer liberation, and meanwhile the Protestant Church is 568 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: doing like exactly the same thing. They're like pro except 569 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: like I think, I think, like even more fascist, which 570 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: is really really and I say, this is someone who 571 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 2: has raised Lutheran like that that is really the core 572 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: of Protestantism is like what if we did Catholicism but 573 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: like somehow shittier, like like Martin Luther. One day, I'm 574 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: going to do my thing on the world's greatest kind 575 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: of revolutionaries and then one of them is Martin Luther, 576 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: because oh yeah, very clear, because like like I might. 577 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: My argument for this is that the greatest kind of 578 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 2: revolutionary is the person who starts out at on on 579 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: the side of the revolution and then turns against it. 580 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: And so Martin Luther's thing was he was trying to 581 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: outflank the Catholic Church in the sixteen hundreds from the 582 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: right on anti Semitism. Sorry, I meant a sixteen sixteenth 583 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: century fififteen hundred and fifty hundreds, which is even worse, 584 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: fifty hundreds Catholic Church they have expelled they have like 585 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 2: just they have there. This is this is in the 586 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 2: period where they were like expelling all of the Jews 587 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: from Spain right, and Martin Luther's trying to like flank them, 588 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: and this is the kind of shit that's happening like 589 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: in the US at this point, which is you know, 590 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: this is this is this is the this is the 591 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: Protestant sort of following the Catholic like why and in 592 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: some ways blazing their own trail of going really hard right. 593 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: So probably the most famous and I think definitely one 594 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: of the most important examples of this is the right 595 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: wing seizure of the Southern Baptist Convention in nineteen seventy nine. 596 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: So for people who don't know about the Southern Baptist Convention, 597 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: they are a very very large and influential like group 598 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: of Baptist churches, and they've been kind of like they'd 599 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 2: been anti segregation, they've been sort of like trending left, 600 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: and there's this is one of the things. This is 601 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: a very very famous thing in the history like if 602 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: if you're you know, it's sort of like the history 603 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: and mythos of the right wing is like in nineteen 604 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: seventy nine, at this convention, these like there's like these 605 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: group of pastors who are like, ah, the church is 606 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: getting too woke or getting too left. They scrolled out 607 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: this plan like on a fucking napkin to like how 608 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 2: they were going to take over the church. And they 609 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: do it. They see they seek control Baptist Convention, and 610 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: they purge all of their enemies and it is very 611 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: very quickly, within a matter of like a couple of years, 612 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: it's converted into this factory for right wing violence. Yeah, 613 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 2: they they are. They ruthlessly Purgectingo sent in the churches. 614 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 2: A bunch of churches leave because they're like, what, who 615 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: the fuck are these people? Like just these absolutely right 616 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: wing fanatics. Is like I've taken controls. A bunch of 617 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: churches leave, but a lot of them stay. And you 618 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: know what they're what their project is is that they 619 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: start creating these sort of totalitarian micro states, like in 620 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: like this is this what they turn churches into, and 621 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 2: this is what they turn households into, because these households 622 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 2: become enormous centers of abuse, like just unfathomable amounts of 623 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 2: violence can sort of get get sort of spread out 624 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 2: of this stuff. And you know the way that these 625 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: things work, right is is is you may have seen 626 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: have you seen those like fucking deranged umbrella memes that 627 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: the Christian right makes on Twitter. No, so, okay, they're 628 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: supposed to be like these like umbrellas, and there's like's 629 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 2: some familiarly or the umbrella like protect you from the things. 630 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: So there's like the family and is had the family. 631 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: They're like protected by the authority of the husband. You're 632 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: protected by the authority of the church, protected by the 633 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: authority of like the theocratic state. 634 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 3: Okay, no, this is like the most cursed Russian doll. 635 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 2: It's awful, And this is just what these people believe, right, 636 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: and they enforce this through psychological and physical violence. These 637 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 2: people are they're sending out instruction manuals about how to 638 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 2: beat your children right and how to do it in 639 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: ways that you won't get caught, you know. And like 640 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 2: what I'm saying, these are like totalitarian micro states. That's 641 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: not an exaggeration that that is what these households are. Like, 642 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 2: they're unbelievably violent. You as a child or is under 643 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: constant surveillance. You are literally forced to through physical violence 644 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 2: to maintain their gender norms. And this is the base 645 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 2: of the Christian of the homophobic Christian right. These churches 646 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: are pumping out shocktroopers. And these are the shock troopers 647 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: both of neoliberalism and homophobic con transphobic violence. And when 648 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: I say shockstroppers, I do mean this literally. Because an 649 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: enormous number of these people, and this is part of 650 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: the reason's politics, it starts to fall apart. Like I 651 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: grew up around these people. A lot of these people 652 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 2: went to fucking a rock and got the absolute shit 653 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 2: blown out of them. But you know, these people, like 654 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: these these churches, this is you know, you can look 655 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 2: at the sort of panopoly of the people who do 656 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 2: right wing like homophobic violence. Right the queer basher, the 657 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: peronew kicks their kid out of their homes for being gay, 658 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 2: the homophobic boss who fires and abuses queer workers, the 659 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 2: doctor who assaults us and then denies his medical care. 660 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 2: These people are pumped up by the church. And what 661 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: the church is doing here is they're serving as the 662 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: equivalent of sort of of unions in the left right. 663 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 2: And when I say unions, I'm talking more like the 664 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 2: nineteen oh seven IWW of in like the twenty twenty 665 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 2: three AFLCIO. These churches are the social and organizational space 666 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 2: in which the right constructions its world right, it's the 667 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 2: sort of nexus of homophobic organizing from the beginnings of 668 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 2: the Hope of Home, like right through like their fight 669 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 2: against gay marriage. But Kaba, something happened that rope well, 670 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: I think rope Key might have suspected this, but something 671 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 2: happens that his inheritors did not expect. And that's something 672 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 2: is the only thing I failed to consider is what 673 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: if neoliberalism came for the church. So one of the 674 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 2: things that has happened in the last and I mean 675 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: literally we are talking the last ten years or ten 676 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 2: to fifteen years, really the last like ten years, church 677 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: attendants and this is also actually true well of synagogual 678 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: mosco attendants with the church tendants has been declining way more. 679 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 2: It used to be like you know, if if if 680 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 2: you're are you a member of a church? Moster synagogurea 681 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: like Gallup has been pulling this since the fucking forties. 682 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 2: It used to be the rate of it of being 683 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 2: a member of a church st Agaga mosque was it 684 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 2: was for like basically until like two thousand, it was 685 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: hovering around seventy percent. It's now forty seven. That is 686 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 2: a catastrophic drop. That is a rewriting of like fundamentally 687 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: what the US is. The US has been a like 688 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 2: Christian health state, like since it was created, right, Like 689 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 2: the US is founded by like religious extremists whose problem 690 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 2: is that they weren't allowed to pursue Catholics enough. So 691 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: this has been this has been a church country more 692 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: so than like most of the European countries. You did 693 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 2: the settling up until literally the last twenty years, and 694 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: the drop between twenty ten and now is like fourteen percent. 695 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: And this is this is and it's not just that 696 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: the membership rates are going down, like the actual church 697 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 2: attendance is going down. And so in this context where 698 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: less people are going to a church, less people belong 699 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 2: to a church, the political strategies that have been based 700 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: on using the church as like your default social network. Uh, 701 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 2: they don't have the kind of reach that they used to. Yeah, 702 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 2: and if that's your political strategy, this is a catastrophe 703 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 2: for you. Now, you know, we could talk that there 704 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: are like, there are lots of reasons this is happening, 705 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: part of which is sort of like the secularization of 706 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: the US. Part of this is that there's been so 707 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,479 Speaker 2: many fucking atrocious abuse scandals in these churches that people 708 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: are just fucking leaving because that's what happens. Yeah, you know, 709 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: and one day, one day, the thing I really will 710 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: get canceled for is when I would the episode I 711 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 2: do about how this happened in the DSA and how 712 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: it just haulowed out the membership because you know, it 713 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 2: turns out wh people get abused, they just fucking leave. 714 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, not just the DSA, like unfortuately. 715 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 2: Yes, this happens in so many organizing like this is yeah, 716 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 2: stuff being fucking creeps. Yeah, but like you know, yeah, 717 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,320 Speaker 2: the Christian right has a particularly bad because they don't 718 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 2: they did there or address it, right, this is part 719 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 2: of their ideologies that this is good. 720 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the problem, like at least in the left, 721 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,439 Speaker 3: Like it keeps fucking happening, and we do recognize it's bad. 722 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 3: We sometimes just seemingly people on the lefts are prepaired 723 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 3: to allow it to happen because I think it's not 724 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 3: as bad as the alternative, but which is bullshit. But yeah, 725 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 3: when you have a church which actively kind of encourages it, yes, actually. 726 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 2: And and and part of and the other the other 727 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: thing that's happening here, right, is that, like the other 728 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 2: thing that's generating this is just there is just the 729 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 2: neoliberal adimisation of society, like it's it's tearing apart, sort 730 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: of like social bound you know. And and I mean 731 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 2: one of the things I think you have to be 732 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 2: careful of when you talk about neoliberalism tearing about social 733 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 2: bonds is that not all a lot of those bonds sucked, 734 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 2: Like it was not good that everyone with seventy percent 735 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 2: of Americans were going to church, right, Like, not good 736 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 2: at all. That sucked. It was deeply evil. But you know, 737 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 2: it tears apart like it tears, it tears apart bonds, 738 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 2: not entirely without regard to ideology, but it still does 739 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: do it. And this means this context has completely reshaped 740 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 2: what right wing like anti career and anti transorganizing looks like. 741 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 2: And the right right now, the right solution to that 742 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: is the Daily Wire. And we will get explained that 743 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 2: in very great length tomorrow and the day after that, 744 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: So stay tuned. 745 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 3: Does and three of the bad Guy, Well, we already 746 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 3: had a bad guy. I guess he's dead. 747 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 2: These ones, Yeah, this is the bad guy number two, yeah, three, four, 748 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 2: maybe after the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention. 749 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're right up there there. They've still got 750 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 3: time too. You know, they're already only in their ascendancy, 751 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 3: so we shouldn't judge him too, Eddie. 752 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: Yep, but yeah, this has Beennike, it happened here. Go 753 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: make these people's lives miserable. 754 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Bench Perry is miserable because I write a 755 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: peace of pop mechanics about how to tear down the 756 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 3: statue and he is still mad about it because he 757 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 3: said I can't wait for their piece about mods of 758 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 3: cocktails and I never wrote that as well, So Ben 759 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 3: Shapiro can suck it. Thank you for the career help 760 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 3: of Ben Shapiro. 761 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 762 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 763 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 764 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 765 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 766 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for 767 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: listening