WEBVTT - Episode 5: “Grace Doe: Shauna Garber” 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.760 Human beings are not conditioned to react to a gruesome 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:14.400 homicide scene. Those who come across bodies during the normal 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:21.720 course of life display a wide range of emotion shock, disbelief, confusion, horror, fear, 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.120 and of course guilt. When I began to focus my 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:31.200 career on missing people long ago, what unnerved me most 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.839 was that a loved one had vanished and family members 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.760 were left to wonder, to wait, to suffer, not knowing 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.960 what happened or where they were. You would think, as 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.840 I used to, that the discovery of a body resolves 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:53.120 a small part of the emotional puzzle surrounding a missing person. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:59.960 But that's not always the reality. So you come upon 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.920 on the skull, you and your husband. Your husband sees 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.039 the skull, you walk over to it. What is your 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:07.640 first thought? What are you thinking? 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.040 We didn't know really what to think. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.600 If you recall at the end of the previous episode, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.640 Randy and Linda Grohler happened upon the skull and remains 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.920 of a young woman just up the road from their Anderson, 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:21.960 Missouri home. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.000 I'll tell you what it looked like if somebody had 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.640 set a skull off in museum's jailp on the ground 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.679 it was just as shiny as could be, just as 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:33.720 bleached out as it all could be. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.640 And were there any clothes or were there any ligatures 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.840 around the neck or head or body of the. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.080 Skull was detached from the body, and the rib cage 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:48.600 was detached from the body. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:49.440 You know. 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.080 The only clothes that was on the body that we 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.400 found was where the pelvis and legs were in ten 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:00.440 shoes it had. She had tennis shoes on. Heclass cable 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:05.240 around her neck, but her hands we didn't move anything 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.720 until after the corner got there. But the hands were 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.680 tied to the rope looked like clothesline rope. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.600 And how did this make the both of you feel 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.520 when you it settled into you that you had found 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:20.440 a body. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.679 Well, it was disturbing to me, but you know I 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.840 had been in the martuary business before, so I wasn't 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.720 too upset. My wife, Linda, she got real upset about it. 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.400 Matter of fact, she had she had to go to 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.560 the doctor and get medication to help her sleep at night. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.040 Tell me about that, Linda, what was troubling you? 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.680 They thought that she was dumped there and we couldn't 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:46.200 help her. 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:52.160 That here is somebody's daughter sister mother, and nobody knows 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.040 she's there. She's missing. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.000 And the part that bothered me for years was, I 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:03.320 somebody did reporter missing, You know, if you got a 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:04.520 child and you. 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.080 As I listened to the Rollers described their experience, the 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.520 bindings they mentioned jumped out at me. Although it was 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.440 a point of contention among law enforcement, one could argue 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.920 that bindings could have been part of the Dana Stidham 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:21.760 crime scene. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.360 It was kind of like a clothesline rope and stuff 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.120 like that. It was different times. 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.240 Finding the skull and remains of a young woman so 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.000 close to their home had jogged the memory. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:34.440 For the Rollers. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.440 And then we got to think of this bones in 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.560 our front, all right, This is the part that really 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.440 bothers me. Our dog at Siberian Husky had brought part of. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:45.480 Her home with him. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.960 We thought it was dear bones. We didn't look at 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.760 it closely, but I think it was what part of 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:57.839 her vertebrate we're backbone rhythm, the bottom over? 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:00.640 Is there anything else that you remember? 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.720 When the sheriff and the coroner were up there, the 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.080 corner happened to be Gayl Duncan. At the time. I 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.760 remember Gail telling me that This is not going to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.360 be a problem identifying the body because of the extensive 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:18.000 dental work. 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:24.080 That plausible offhand comment about Jane Doe's teeth and her 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.960 eventual identity will turn out to be the understatement of 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.880 this case and send law enforcement on a thirty year 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:40.560 quest to identify her. Previously on Paper. 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:45.039 Ghosts, he went down there and he took something from 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.880 a little dead girl, and I didn't like it. 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.000 It seems to check all the boxes for a sexual 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.440 predator going into the store with a hood on their face, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.600 standing behind the women, sneaking up behind them in some 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:57.640 cases groping them. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.080 But I went back there with him and we saw 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:05.200 the skull, and then on further looking we can see 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:06.960 the rest of the body. 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.000 My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.400 and author of more than forty true crime books. This 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:26.599 is season four of Pay for Ghosts the Ozarks. 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.279 This road here that we just turned off of would 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.960 have been US seventy one Highway, So this road here 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.120 would have been so much busier. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:39.080 Okay, have heard. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.960 Justice Oscar Tally Road in Anderson, Missouri was a bit 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.719 confusing for this new englander trudging through the Ozarks in 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:51.799 early twenty twenty three, searching for answers in two decades 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:56.040 old cold cases. I met Detective Lorie Howard and her partner, 0:05:56.120 --> 0:06:00.320 Detective Ronda Wise, from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office out 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.279 at the crime scene. 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.120 Hi, how are you, Detective Lorie Howard? How's it going? 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.000 You know I might not be the best person to ask. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:14.200 I have no idea. 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.039 You've been busy, huh. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.600 I have been so busy, so busy. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.640 And the word Laurie Howard is one of the most 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.520 dedicated investigators I have ever had the privilege of calling 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:29.960 a friend. She's disciplined, resolute, and laser focused on making 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:35.560 sure murder victims have a voice. Detective Howard picked up 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.640 the Oscar Tally Road Jane Docase about fifteen years ago. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.560 Do you think there's possibility it can be solved? 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:43.599 I know it will. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.160 I'm not tooting my horn here, but I'm not out 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.159 to give up on it, and I have reason to 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.560 believe that it will be solved. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.840 Oscar Tally is what I would call a backcountry road. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.440 There are a lot of these throughout the Ozas, unpaved 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:07.760 name streets surrounded by vast forests thickly settled on both sides. 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.000 Lorie Howard and Ronda Wise work under current McDonald County, 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.520 Missouri elected Sheriff Rob Evenson. The grit and persistence they 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.160 display to work a case and stick with it despite 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:29.840 barriers is a skill not all law enforcement possesses. As 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.360 the years passed after Jane Doe was found, the course 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.960 of events surrounding this case can only be described as bizarre. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.920 After I pulled up to where Jane Doe's remains were 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.840 found by the grollers, Detective Howard jumped in my vehicle 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.600 and put me right into the mindset of the killer. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:54.720 She is hunting, all right. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.120 So the working theory is more than likely they would have. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.600 Come from this direction, the direction that we came off 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:02.360 of the main highway. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:03.840 Far off the main highway. 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.640 Oh yeah, the whole road looked essentially really really narrow. 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.480 It's been widened since then. If you go with my theory, 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:12.760 he would have come from that side and come out 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.240 this way and gone out this way. Either way, whether 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.400 you're a neighbor here or whether you're a neighbor here, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.200 this sits in an area that's echoe because there's a 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.680 park with some water down here, so this truck would 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:25.120 have been. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:26.320 Loud at the time. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.840 I mean, you hear birds, so a really loud, mufflered 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:31.720 truck would be heard by all of these people. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.800 There's that mention of a truck again, which figures so 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.720 prominently in Danis Stidham's case. As we chatted, a man 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.360 came walking out of the woods toward us. Laurie knew 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.679 exactly who he was, A guy whose name I have 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.120 to bleep out, she shouted, calling him by his name, 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.080 making his way to the vehicle he couldn't hear as 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:57.640 we continued talking. 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:00.560 So this guy hay stuff. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.560 People come out here and look, we've been out here 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.720 a lot at times, and he's just not crazy about it. 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.160 We have people that think he did it. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.160 There was a Mac truck without a trailer parked nearby. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.840 I'm not one of them, but you know, but there's 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.520 people that can say that he's had something to do 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.160 with it because he's a little hinky. 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.560 He's a trucker. Truckers are the largest number of serial 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:23.559 killers in the country. 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:24.000 They are. 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:25.640 But I'm not sold. 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.040 The man was just a few yards from my vehicle. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.360 He's getting ready to probably show you there was an old, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.720 abandoned house, creepy as hell, and that's where they would play. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:37.959 But more importantly, what I'm going to show you is 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.319 going to be this concrete pad which was in front 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.080 of that garage, which is where she was like. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.240 He stood now at the window on Lori's side and 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.720 demanded to know what we were doing. 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.120 Well, I'm Detective Howard, so it's nice to meet you. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.800 I'm Matthew. Matthew okay, So I explained to him that we. 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.000 Were just The guy was cautious and preoccupied with why 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.600 we were out there, but he also mentioned he might 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.440 have some information. He said he knew Randy and Linda 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.959 Grohler very well, that couple up the road who found 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.480 Jane Doe. We stepped out of the vehicle and stood 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.440 together as Laurie and the guy started to discuss people 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.400 in the area they both knew. I gave them the 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.760 space to speak privately and pulled Detective Ronda Wise aside 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.079 for a little chat. What's it about the cold case 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:29.439 work that attracts you to it. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.280 I've been saying this a lot in the last couple 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:31.760 of days. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:33.600 It doesn't matter. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.800 Who solves the cold case, as long as it gets 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.400 solved so that that family can have that closure. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:40.360 Perfect. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.000 You know, as Ronda and I talked, Laurie walked over 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.000 with a surprised look on her face. The curious dude 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.360 she was speaking to apparently had something. 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:52.760 Laurie, we good here. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.480 You think I want you to talk to this man? 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:55.079 Okay. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.240 I had no idea that he had something to offer. 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.920 But he was here the night that he heard this. 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.760 He was down the road where the party was taking place. 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.840 He can validate there was a party. He can validate 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.480 that the kids said there was a scream. He can 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:10.600 validate what happened to me. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:26.280 Back in nineteen ninety three, kids reported that they heard 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:32.000 a female scream on Halloween night, and that's not exactly 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.880 evidence of a murder, which was why law enforcement back 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.760 then had not given much weight to the statements. But 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.439 this new witness, who just appeared as I was at 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.480 the Jane Doe crime scene with detectives Laurie Howard and 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:53.560 Ronda Wise, seemed to corroborate the information. I walked over 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.640 to the man and asked him to start at the. 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.079 Beginning, and I won't use your name. 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:05.120 Okay, Okay, So it's Halloween night and what happens. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.680 A bunch of us kids are just having a party 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.480 at a house there, and one of the couples left 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.000 and came started up the hill, heard a scream, came 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.640 back down, told us a couple guys walked up here. 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:20.960 We didn't hear nothing. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.920 After that, And did anybody hear a truck. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.640 Just to see what was going on? 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:27.880 Okay? Okay? 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.800 And nobody saw a vehicle leave anything like that. 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.160 It had been several minutes, so the truck had probably 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.200 had already been gone. They heard a scream and it 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.800 freaked them out, and they went back down because it's 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:41.679 dark up here. 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.920 A ten year old boy who lived on Oscar Tally 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:50.000 RoadHead reported coming across Jane Doe's body on November three, 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:53.800 about a month before she was found, closer to that 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.520 Halloween night date. He told his parents, but they rode 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:02.120 it off as a Halloween prank. Then those three additional 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.000 young witnesses, two boys and a girl at a Halloween 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:10.760 party nearby, reported hearing a truck drive down Oscar Tally 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:16.040 and stop before hearing a woman's scream and the truck 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.800 then taking off in a hurry. For Laurie Howard, it 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.960 all now made sense. So it was a terrifying scream. Yeah, 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:30.200 it wasn't some like they're playing volleyball or something. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:31.760 It was a it was a shriek. 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.800 So that's the second person that has I didn't know existed, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:40.640 and we know that it was around Halloween, which we suppositioned, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.280 but he can tell us for sure that it was 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:44.440 a Halloween party going on. 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.560 According to the official report written on December second, nineteen ninety, 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.040 Jane Doe was found in high grass twenty feet off 0:13:55.160 --> 0:14:00.920 Oscar Tally Road near an old Rundown barn. Binder twine, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:06.200 electrical cord, nylon rope, and paracord were used to restrain her. 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.240 She wore blue jeans and a denim jacket. She was 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.920 thought to be between twenty and thirty years old. Her 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.319 upper rib cage was found near the porch of the barn, 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:23.720 dragged there, likely by wild animals. Those bindings were significant 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.920 and appeared to be important to Jane Doe's killer, maybe 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:35.040 even his signature. Here's former Sheriff Don Slessman, who investigated 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.160 the case in the years after Jane Doe's body was discovered. 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.080 See they had a towel wrapped around her head and 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:48.239 they had attached that with electrical wire single strand electrical 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.480 wire with the insulation on it. That don't make sense 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.120 in poachords just a much crazy. 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.720 And was she hogtie hands and. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.760 Feet, a towel around her head. 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.680 Yeah, after a towel around. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.760 Her head, around her face as well, or just. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.120 Her head her face so she couldn't finally see. 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:12.520 Yeah, that's interesting. 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.160 With the electrical cord, the bendable electrical cord with the. 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.720 Copper in it, right, Yeah, the solid copper center and 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:24.160 then it had the good black insulation you know, like 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.080 you were a house with. But it looked like they 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.680 just a grab player they could and tie her up 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:35.120 with it. M four five different things. And the para 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.040 cord you know back in those days paara cord is 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:40.760 something not everybody. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.680 Had unless you were in the military. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.880 Yeah. 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.320 For investigators in the case, those very particular bindings at 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.000 the gene Do crime scene brought to mind one particular 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:06.600 serial killer of record, Dennis Rader, self proclaimed to bind, torture, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:13.560 kill his victims. You might also know him as B. T. K. 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.480 In early twenty twenty three, detective Laurie Howard went out 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.479 to speak with Rader the first of many visits specifically 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.600 about Jane Doe. In fact, the night before I met 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.240 with Ronda and Laurie at Jane Doe's crime scene, they 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:39.160 brought btk's daughter, Kerry Rawson and interviewed him again. The 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.880 Sheriff's office in Pahuska, Oklahoma had created a task force 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.040 looking into the forty seven year old cold case murder 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:53.920 of Cynthia don Kinney and additional cold cases, including Detective 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.360 Howard's Jane Doe. The sheriff was kind of stuck on 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:04.280 linking BTK Laurie's oscar tally Jane Doe. I sent some 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.560 frustration from Laurie and Ronda not to mention disagreement with 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:13.440 where Sheriff Eddie Verdon of Osage County was with BTK 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:18.080 and Jane Doe. Ronda and Laurie saw no evidence connecting 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.280 BTK directly to their Jane Doe, and the more they 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.879 spoke to Rader about it, the more they felt Osage 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:30.960 County was only interested in closing cases, not solving murders, 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:36.280 and BTK seemed like as good a scapegoat as any. Still, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.760 it didn't mean that Detective Howard wasn't looking at Raider 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.840 as a serious suspect in Jane Doe's case. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.360 Early on, I would have been remiss if I had 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:55.440 not said I have to see Dennis Raider aka BTK 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:02.160 because of the bindings. They're massive, it's overkill. It's obviously 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.359 something that's important to the crime. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.000 How many different bindings are we talking about? How many 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.760 different types of twine attire. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:16.040 Six and eight and essentially you're gonna have coax cable, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.560 You're gonna have parachute cord, nylon cord, which is like 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.879 a camping type of cord, raided rope. We call this 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.720 yellow cord that we're looking at here. That would be 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.000 like a tree trimmer type of cord. You also have 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.440 what we refer to as baling twine. It's a type 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.840 of sisle twine that you might see in hay bails. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:36.760 All of that was used on her. 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.160 All of it was used on both for our wrists 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.359 and her feet and then tied together with a shoelace. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.760 Well, that's pretty significant. I think it is. 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.600 Significant, and BTK thought it was significant. He's meticulous. 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:52.360 That is not meticulous. 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:53.480 That is not meticulous. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.000 That's very unorganized. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.879 This would be indicative of somebody who tighter left her, 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.160 came back tighter, lefter came back. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:04.919 Possibly for quite. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.560 A while, I wondered what BTK thought about all this 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.720 new attention directed at him. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:17.520 He was very anxious to see his name plastered all 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.960 over the media again. He said, I don't have very 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.960 much longer to live, and he said I can see 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.960 the headlines now BTK gives last confession and all of 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:29.560 this kind of thing. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:30.080 Wow. 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.080 So what I heard was BTK could not yet be 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.199 ruled out of Oscar Tally Jane Doe's murder. 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.360 What I would say about that is, I do believe 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:47.000 wholeheartedly that there are other victims in Kansas, and more 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.679 than likely parts of Oklahoma, you know that are close 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.919 to Kansas. But really that was his thomping grounds. I 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:56.879 can put him in Missouri, I can put him in 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.760 Southwest Missouri. But what I don't think he was ever 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.840 alone there. I believe that every time he came to 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.320 Southwest Missouri he was with his family and it was 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:08.359 as a fishing trip. 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:13.480 I had heard BTK was very ill, so I asked 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:14.359 Laurie about it. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.320 I mean, he was animated and the person that I 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.399 saw when they wheeled him in, because he's now in 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.440 a wheelchair. He has scoliosis, he's doubled over, he doesn't 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.719 walk well. Yes, cellulitis in both legs. He's got kind 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:33.520 of an ashen appearance. And by his own account, he said, 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.480 I probably won't live that much longer. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.560 The Oscar tally Jane doe murder felt somewhat disorganized, not 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.400 to mention outside btk's comfort zone of a confined space 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.200 such as a house. Plus, if we're comparing Jane Doe's 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:56.600 murder with Dana Stidhams as potentially being linked, BTK could 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.879 mostly be excluded from Dana's case based on how she 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.960 went missing, the multiple sightings of her after, and where 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:08.280 she was found. So what did BTK have to say 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.919 about Jane Doe's case specifically? 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.920 And so when I would put, you know, his work 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.800 in front of him, I'll say it was a code, 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.119 and I was asking him about his own code. He 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.920 would become very animated and excited. He'd go, oh, look 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.760 at that, that's mine, you know, And we'd go over 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.600 what the code meant and what he wrote and how 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.280 he wrote it, and you know, how the codes were 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.960 written out. He was very forthcoming on all of his work. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.440 And then when we would, I would slide over some 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.480 of his journal entries that had projects, his different projects 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:42.840 and things. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:48.240 BTK was known to use the word project for his murders, and. 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.200 I would say, you know, hey, what about this, and hey, 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.040 tell me about it. He had no problems talking about 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.960 the ten that he'd already killed, and even some of 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:01.560 the journal entries that weren't that we know of, he 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:05.159 would explain them. So every time I would put a 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.760 piece of paper in front him, he was overjoyed that 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.959 I had his work, and I had one project in 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:14.719 particular that I had mentioned to him, and you know, 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.840 he was just a totally different person, and he said, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.280 nobody's ever asked me about that, and he was very 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.080 excited about it, which leads me to believe that's probably 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:25.320 a potential victim. 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.439 Laurie then showed BTK a photo of the bindings used 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.000 on Jane Doe. 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:35.720 No animation, nothing. He literally almost had a look of 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.280 disgust on his face, and it was what he said 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.159 was that's overkill. I don't know why anybody would do that. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:44.760 So it was almost like he had a lack of 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.120 respect for the work that he was looking at. 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:53.120 I cannot undersell the incredible amount of bindings found at 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.160 this crime scene, but it's the parachord and ropes that 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:02.200 most interested me at that time. Would have been very 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.040 hard to find and purchase if you were not in 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:10.760 the military. Jack Lenny, the new suspect and Dani's case 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:14.359 I mentioned in the last episode, had done a long 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:19.920 stint in the military. He also lived in between Bellavista, Arkansas, 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.359 and Anderson, Missouri, and was known to come up into 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:33.320 Anderson at times, and he drove a truck with the 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.680 discovery of Jane Doe not far from the Danastidham crime 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:40.760 scene in Bella Vista. The BCSO took notice. By then, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:45.240 the BCSO had latched onto the guy I'm calling Jack Lenny. 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:50.439 Here's Lieutenant Hunter Petray, who begins by explaining why the 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:55.880 bcso's case against their chief suspect, Mike McMillan went stagnant 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:58.639 and the focus turned to Lenny. 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:03.040 Part of the problems physical evidence DNA witnesses. You know, 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.639 you have to realize in law enforcement that sometimes you 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:09.320 can arrest people and you think your case looks good, 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:13.320