1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Human beings are not conditioned to react to a gruesome 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: homicide scene. Those who come across bodies during the normal 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: course of life display a wide range of emotion shock, disbelief, confusion, horror, fear, 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: and of course guilt. When I began to focus my 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: career on missing people long ago, what unnerved me most 6 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: was that a loved one had vanished and family members 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: were left to wonder, to wait, to suffer, not knowing 8 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: what happened or where they were. You would think, as 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: I used to, that the discovery of a body resolves 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: a small part of the emotional puzzle surrounding a missing person. 11 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: But that's not always the reality. So you come upon 12 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: on the skull, you and your husband. Your husband sees 13 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: the skull, you walk over to it. What is your 14 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: first thought? What are you thinking? 15 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: We didn't know really what to think. 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: If you recall at the end of the previous episode, 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Randy and Linda Grohler happened upon the skull and remains 18 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: of a young woman just up the road from their Anderson, 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: Missouri home. 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what it looked like if somebody had 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 3: set a skull off in museum's jailp on the ground 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: it was just as shiny as could be, just as 23 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 3: bleached out as it all could be. 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: And were there any clothes or were there any ligatures 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: around the neck or head or body of the. 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: Skull was detached from the body, and the rib cage 27 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 3: was detached from the body. 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 4: You know. 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 3: The only clothes that was on the body that we 30 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: found was where the pelvis and legs were in ten 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: shoes it had. She had tennis shoes on. Heclass cable 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: around her neck, but her hands we didn't move anything 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: until after the corner got there. But the hands were 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: tied to the rope looked like clothesline rope. 35 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: And how did this make the both of you feel 36 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: when you it settled into you that you had found 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: a body. 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 3: Well, it was disturbing to me, but you know I 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 3: had been in the martuary business before, so I wasn't 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: too upset. My wife, Linda, she got real upset about it. 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: Matter of fact, she had she had to go to 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: the doctor and get medication to help her sleep at night. 43 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: Tell me about that, Linda, what was troubling you? 44 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: They thought that she was dumped there and we couldn't 45 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: help her. 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: That here is somebody's daughter sister mother, and nobody knows 47 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: she's there. She's missing. 48 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: And the part that bothered me for years was, I 49 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: somebody did reporter missing, You know, if you got a 50 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: child and you. 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: As I listened to the Rollers described their experience, the 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: bindings they mentioned jumped out at me. Although it was 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: a point of contention among law enforcement, one could argue 54 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: that bindings could have been part of the Dana Stidham 55 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: crime scene. 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: It was kind of like a clothesline rope and stuff 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: like that. It was different times. 58 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Finding the skull and remains of a young woman so 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: close to their home had jogged the memory. 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 5: For the Rollers. 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: And then we got to think of this bones in 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: our front, all right, This is the part that really 63 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: bothers me. Our dog at Siberian Husky had brought part of. 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 5: Her home with him. 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: We thought it was dear bones. We didn't look at 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: it closely, but I think it was what part of 67 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 2: her vertebrate we're backbone rhythm, the bottom over? 68 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you remember? 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: When the sheriff and the coroner were up there, the 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: corner happened to be Gayl Duncan. At the time. I 71 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: remember Gail telling me that This is not going to 72 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 3: be a problem identifying the body because of the extensive 73 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 3: dental work. 74 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: That plausible offhand comment about Jane Doe's teeth and her 75 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: eventual identity will turn out to be the understatement of 76 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: this case and send law enforcement on a thirty year 77 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: quest to identify her. Previously on Paper. 78 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 6: Ghosts, he went down there and he took something from 79 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 6: a little dead girl, and I didn't like it. 80 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 7: It seems to check all the boxes for a sexual 81 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 7: predator going into the store with a hood on their face, 82 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 7: standing behind the women, sneaking up behind them in some 83 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 7: cases groping them. 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: But I went back there with him and we saw 85 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: the skull, and then on further looking we can see 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: the rest of the body. 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 88 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime books. This 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: is season four of Pay for Ghosts the Ozarks. 90 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 8: This road here that we just turned off of would 91 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 8: have been US seventy one Highway, So this road here 92 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 8: would have been so much busier. 93 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: Okay, have heard. 94 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: Justice Oscar Tally Road in Anderson, Missouri was a bit 95 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: confusing for this new englander trudging through the Ozarks in 96 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: early twenty twenty three, searching for answers in two decades 97 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: old cold cases. I met Detective Lorie Howard and her partner, 98 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: Detective Ronda Wise, from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office out 99 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: at the crime scene. 100 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 5: Hi, how are you, Detective Lorie Howard? How's it going? 101 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: You know I might not be the best person to ask. 102 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 9: I have no idea. 103 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 5: You've been busy, huh. 104 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 4: I have been so busy, so busy. 105 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: And the word Laurie Howard is one of the most 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: dedicated investigators I have ever had the privilege of calling 107 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: a friend. She's disciplined, resolute, and laser focused on making 108 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: sure murder victims have a voice. Detective Howard picked up 109 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: the Oscar Tally Road Jane Docase about fifteen years ago. 110 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: Do you think there's possibility it can be solved? 111 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 9: I know it will. 112 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 4: I'm not tooting my horn here, but I'm not out 113 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 4: to give up on it, and I have reason to 114 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 4: believe that it will be solved. 115 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: Oscar Tally is what I would call a backcountry road. 116 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: There are a lot of these throughout the Ozas, unpaved 117 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: name streets surrounded by vast forests thickly settled on both sides. 118 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: Lorie Howard and Ronda Wise work under current McDonald County, 119 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: Missouri elected Sheriff Rob Evenson. The grit and persistence they 120 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: display to work a case and stick with it despite 121 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: barriers is a skill not all law enforcement possesses. As 122 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: the years passed after Jane Doe was found, the course 123 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: of events surrounding this case can only be described as bizarre. 124 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: After I pulled up to where Jane Doe's remains were 125 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: found by the grollers, Detective Howard jumped in my vehicle 126 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: and put me right into the mindset of the killer. 127 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: She is hunting, all right. 128 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 4: So the working theory is more than likely they would have. 129 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 9: Come from this direction, the direction that we came off 130 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 9: of the main highway. 131 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 10: Far off the main highway. 132 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 9: Oh yeah, the whole road looked essentially really really narrow. 133 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 9: It's been widened since then. If you go with my theory, 134 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 9: he would have come from that side and come out 135 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 9: this way and gone out this way. Either way, whether 136 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 9: you're a neighbor here or whether you're a neighbor here, 137 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 9: this sits in an area that's echoe because there's a 138 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 9: park with some water down here, so this truck would 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 9: have been. 140 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 4: Loud at the time. 141 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 11: I mean, you hear birds, so a really loud, mufflered 142 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 11: truck would be heard by all of these people. 143 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: There's that mention of a truck again, which figures so 144 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: prominently in Danis Stidham's case. As we chatted, a man 145 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: came walking out of the woods toward us. Laurie knew 146 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: exactly who he was, A guy whose name I have 147 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: to bleep out, she shouted, calling him by his name, 148 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: making his way to the vehicle he couldn't hear as 149 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: we continued talking. 150 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 9: So this guy hay stuff. 151 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 11: People come out here and look, we've been out here 152 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 11: a lot at times, and he's just not crazy about it. 153 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 11: We have people that think he did it. 154 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: There was a Mac truck without a trailer parked nearby. 155 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 11: I'm not one of them, but you know, but there's 156 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 11: people that can say that he's had something to do 157 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 11: with it because he's a little hinky. 158 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 10: He's a trucker. Truckers are the largest number of serial 159 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 10: killers in the country. 160 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 11: They are. 161 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 4: But I'm not sold. 162 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: The man was just a few yards from my vehicle. 163 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 4: He's getting ready to probably show you there was an old, 164 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 4: abandoned house, creepy as hell, and that's where they would play. 165 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 4: But more importantly, what I'm going to show you is 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 4: going to be this concrete pad which was in front 167 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 4: of that garage, which is where she was like. 168 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: He stood now at the window on Lori's side and 169 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: demanded to know what we were doing. 170 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 4: Well, I'm Detective Howard, so it's nice to meet you. 171 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 12: I'm Matthew. Matthew okay, So I explained to him that we. 172 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: Were just The guy was cautious and preoccupied with why 173 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: we were out there, but he also mentioned he might 174 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: have some information. He said he knew Randy and Linda 175 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: Grohler very well, that couple up the road who found 176 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: Jane Doe. We stepped out of the vehicle and stood 177 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: together as Laurie and the guy started to discuss people 178 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: in the area they both knew. I gave them the 179 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: space to speak privately and pulled Detective Ronda Wise aside 180 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: for a little chat. What's it about the cold case 181 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: work that attracts you to it. 182 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 7: I've been saying this a lot in the last couple 183 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 7: of days. 184 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 12: It doesn't matter. 185 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 8: Who solves the cold case, as long as it gets 186 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 8: solved so that that family can have that closure. 187 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 12: Perfect. 188 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: You know, as Ronda and I talked, Laurie walked over 189 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: with a surprised look on her face. The curious dude 190 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: she was speaking to apparently had something. 191 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 10: Laurie, we good here. 192 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 9: You think I want you to talk to this man? 193 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 2: Okay. 194 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 9: I had no idea that he had something to offer. 195 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 9: But he was here the night that he heard this. 196 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 9: He was down the road where the party was taking place. 197 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 9: He can validate there was a party. He can validate 198 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 9: that the kids said there was a scream. He can 199 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 9: validate what happened to me. 200 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen ninety three, kids reported that they heard 201 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: a female scream on Halloween night, and that's not exactly 202 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: evidence of a murder, which was why law enforcement back 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: then had not given much weight to the statements. But 204 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: this new witness, who just appeared as I was at 205 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: the Jane Doe crime scene with detectives Laurie Howard and 206 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: Ronda Wise, seemed to corroborate the information. I walked over 207 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: to the man and asked him to start at the. 208 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 5: Beginning, and I won't use your name. 209 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So it's Halloween night and what happens. 210 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 12: A bunch of us kids are just having a party 211 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 12: at a house there, and one of the couples left 212 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 12: and came started up the hill, heard a scream, came 213 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 12: back down, told us a couple guys walked up here. 214 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 12: We didn't hear nothing. 215 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: After that, And did anybody hear a truck. 216 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 12: Just to see what was going on? 217 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 10: Okay? Okay? 218 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: And nobody saw a vehicle leave anything like that. 219 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 12: It had been several minutes, so the truck had probably 220 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 12: had already been gone. They heard a scream and it 221 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 12: freaked them out, and they went back down because it's 222 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 12: dark up here. 223 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: A ten year old boy who lived on Oscar Tally 224 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: RoadHead reported coming across Jane Doe's body on November three, 225 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: about a month before she was found, closer to that 226 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Halloween night date. He told his parents, but they rode 227 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: it off as a Halloween prank. Then those three additional 228 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: young witnesses, two boys and a girl at a Halloween 229 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: party nearby, reported hearing a truck drive down Oscar Tally 230 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: and stop before hearing a woman's scream and the truck 231 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: then taking off in a hurry. For Laurie Howard, it 232 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: all now made sense. So it was a terrifying scream. Yeah, 233 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't some like they're playing volleyball or something. 234 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 13: It was a it was a shriek. 235 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 14: So that's the second person that has I didn't know existed, 236 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 14: and we know that it was around Halloween, which we suppositioned, 237 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 14: but he can tell us for sure that it was 238 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 14: a Halloween party going on. 239 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: According to the official report written on December second, nineteen ninety, 240 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: Jane Doe was found in high grass twenty feet off 241 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: Oscar Tally Road near an old Rundown barn. Binder twine, 242 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: electrical cord, nylon rope, and paracord were used to restrain her. 243 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: She wore blue jeans and a denim jacket. She was 244 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: thought to be between twenty and thirty years old. Her 245 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: upper rib cage was found near the porch of the barn, 246 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: dragged there, likely by wild animals. Those bindings were significant 247 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: and appeared to be important to Jane Doe's killer, maybe 248 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: even his signature. Here's former Sheriff Don Slessman, who investigated 249 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: the case in the years after Jane Doe's body was discovered. 250 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 15: See they had a towel wrapped around her head and 251 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,239 Speaker 15: they had attached that with electrical wire single strand electrical 252 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 15: wire with the insulation on it. That don't make sense 253 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 15: in poachords just a much crazy. 254 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: And was she hogtie hands and. 255 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 5: Feet, a towel around her head. 256 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 15: Yeah, after a towel around. 257 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: Her head, around her face as well, or just. 258 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 15: Her head her face so she couldn't finally see. 259 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's interesting. 260 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: With the electrical cord, the bendable electrical cord with the. 261 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 15: Copper in it, right, Yeah, the solid copper center and 262 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 15: then it had the good black insulation you know, like 263 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 15: you were a house with. But it looked like they 264 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 15: just a grab player they could and tie her up 265 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 15: with it. M four five different things. And the para 266 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 15: cord you know back in those days paara cord is 267 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 15: something not everybody. 268 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: Had unless you were in the military. 269 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 15: Yeah. 270 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: For investigators in the case, those very particular bindings at 271 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: the gene Do crime scene brought to mind one particular 272 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: serial killer of record, Dennis Rader, self proclaimed to bind, torture, 273 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: kill his victims. You might also know him as B. T. K. 274 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: In early twenty twenty three, detective Laurie Howard went out 275 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,479 Speaker 1: to speak with Rader the first of many visits specifically 276 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: about Jane Doe. In fact, the night before I met 277 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: with Ronda and Laurie at Jane Doe's crime scene, they 278 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: brought btk's daughter, Kerry Rawson and interviewed him again. The 279 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Sheriff's office in Pahuska, Oklahoma had created a task force 280 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: looking into the forty seven year old cold case murder 281 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: of Cynthia don Kinney and additional cold cases, including Detective 282 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: Howard's Jane Doe. The sheriff was kind of stuck on 283 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: linking BTK Laurie's oscar tally Jane Doe. I sent some 284 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: frustration from Laurie and Ronda not to mention disagreement with 285 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: where Sheriff Eddie Verdon of Osage County was with BTK 286 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: and Jane Doe. Ronda and Laurie saw no evidence connecting 287 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: BTK directly to their Jane Doe, and the more they 288 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: spoke to Rader about it, the more they felt Osage 289 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: County was only interested in closing cases, not solving murders, 290 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: and BTK seemed like as good a scapegoat as any. Still, 291 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: it didn't mean that Detective Howard wasn't looking at Raider 292 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: as a serious suspect in Jane Doe's case. 293 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 8: Early on, I would have been remiss if I had 294 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 8: not said I have to see Dennis Raider aka BTK 295 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 8: because of the bindings. They're massive, it's overkill. It's obviously 296 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 8: something that's important to the crime. 297 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 10: How many different bindings are we talking about? How many 298 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 10: different types of twine attire. 299 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 8: Six and eight and essentially you're gonna have coax cable, 300 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 8: You're gonna have parachute cord, nylon cord, which is like 301 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 8: a camping type of cord, raided rope. We call this 302 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 8: yellow cord that we're looking at here. That would be 303 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 8: like a tree trimmer type of cord. You also have 304 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 8: what we refer to as baling twine. It's a type 305 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 8: of sisle twine that you might see in hay bails. 306 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 10: All of that was used on her. 307 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 8: All of it was used on both for our wrists 308 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 8: and her feet and then tied together with a shoelace. 309 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 10: Well, that's pretty significant. I think it is. 310 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 16: Significant, and BTK thought it was significant. He's meticulous. 311 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 10: That is not meticulous. 312 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 16: That is not meticulous. 313 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 10: That's very unorganized. 314 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 8: This would be indicative of somebody who tighter left her, 315 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 8: came back tighter, lefter came back. 316 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 16: Possibly for quite. 317 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: A while, I wondered what BTK thought about all this 318 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: new attention directed at him. 319 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: He was very anxious to see his name plastered all 320 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 4: over the media again. He said, I don't have very 321 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 4: much longer to live, and he said I can see 322 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 4: the headlines now BTK gives last confession and all of 323 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 4: this kind of thing. 324 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 12: Wow. 325 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: So what I heard was BTK could not yet be 326 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: ruled out of Oscar Tally Jane Doe's murder. 327 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 4: What I would say about that is, I do believe 328 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: wholeheartedly that there are other victims in Kansas, and more 329 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 4: than likely parts of Oklahoma, you know that are close 330 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: to Kansas. But really that was his thomping grounds. I 331 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 4: can put him in Missouri, I can put him in 332 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 4: Southwest Missouri. But what I don't think he was ever 333 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 4: alone there. I believe that every time he came to 334 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 4: Southwest Missouri he was with his family and it was 335 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 4: as a fishing trip. 336 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: I had heard BTK was very ill, so I asked 337 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: Laurie about it. 338 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: I mean, he was animated and the person that I 339 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 4: saw when they wheeled him in, because he's now in 340 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 4: a wheelchair. He has scoliosis, he's doubled over, he doesn't 341 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 4: walk well. Yes, cellulitis in both legs. He's got kind 342 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 4: of an ashen appearance. And by his own account, he said, 343 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 4: I probably won't live that much longer. 344 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: The Oscar tally Jane doe murder felt somewhat disorganized, not 345 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: to mention outside btk's comfort zone of a confined space 346 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: such as a house. Plus, if we're comparing Jane Doe's 347 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: murder with Dana Stidhams as potentially being linked, BTK could 348 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: mostly be excluded from Dana's case based on how she 349 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: went missing, the multiple sightings of her after, and where 350 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: she was found. So what did BTK have to say 351 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: about Jane Doe's case specifically? 352 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 4: And so when I would put, you know, his work 353 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 4: in front of him, I'll say it was a code, 354 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 4: and I was asking him about his own code. He 355 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 4: would become very animated and excited. He'd go, oh, look 356 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 4: at that, that's mine, you know, And we'd go over 357 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 4: what the code meant and what he wrote and how 358 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: he wrote it, and you know, how the codes were 359 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: written out. He was very forthcoming on all of his work. 360 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 4: And then when we would, I would slide over some 361 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 4: of his journal entries that had projects, his different projects 362 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: and things. 363 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: BTK was known to use the word project for his murders, and. 364 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 4: I would say, you know, hey, what about this, and hey, 365 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 4: tell me about it. He had no problems talking about 366 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 4: the ten that he'd already killed, and even some of 367 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 4: the journal entries that weren't that we know of, he 368 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 4: would explain them. So every time I would put a 369 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 4: piece of paper in front him, he was overjoyed that 370 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 4: I had his work, and I had one project in 371 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 4: particular that I had mentioned to him, and you know, 372 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 4: he was just a totally different person, and he said, 373 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 4: nobody's ever asked me about that, and he was very 374 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 4: excited about it, which leads me to believe that's probably 375 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 4: a potential victim. 376 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: Laurie then showed BTK a photo of the bindings used 377 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: on Jane Doe. 378 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 4: No animation, nothing. He literally almost had a look of 379 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 4: disgust on his face, and it was what he said 380 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 4: was that's overkill. I don't know why anybody would do that. 381 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: So it was almost like he had a lack of 382 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 4: respect for the work that he was looking at. 383 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: I cannot undersell the incredible amount of bindings found at 384 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: this crime scene, but it's the parachord and ropes that 385 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: most interested me at that time. Would have been very 386 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: hard to find and purchase if you were not in 387 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: the military. Jack Lenny, the new suspect and Dani's case 388 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the last episode, had done a long 389 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: stint in the military. He also lived in between Bellavista, Arkansas, 390 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: and Anderson, Missouri, and was known to come up into 391 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: Anderson at times, and he drove a truck with the 392 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: discovery of Jane Doe not far from the Danastidham crime 393 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: scene in Bella Vista. The BCSO took notice. By then, 394 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: the BCSO had latched onto the guy I'm calling Jack Lenny. 395 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: Here's Lieutenant Hunter Petray, who begins by explaining why the 396 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: bcso's case against their chief suspect, Mike McMillan went stagnant 397 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: and the focus turned to Lenny. 398 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 13: Part of the problems physical evidence DNA witnesses. You know, 399 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 13: you have to realize in law enforcement that sometimes you 400 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 13: can arrest people and you think your case looks good, 401 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 13: but you have to also think about the prosecutor's office. 402 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 13: They have to be able to get a jury to 403 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 13: convict somebody. So you don't just want to arrest somebody 404 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 13: if you don't think the case is good and you 405 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 13: don't think that the case is going to make it 406 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 13: through prosecution. You know, from everything, there's just not enough 407 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 13: at this point in time to. 408 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 5: Make an arrest. 409 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 13: And it's complicated because there are other people associated with 410 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 13: this case that are good for it as well, like 411 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 13: as far when I say good for it, I mean 412 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 13: as far as their history and their sexually harassing people. 413 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: And I bleeped it out, but Hunter portray mentioned Lenny 414 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: by his real name and also made a valid point 415 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: regarding Lenny's behaviors around women. Let's call them the suspects 416 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: because I'm not going to name him. I'm gonna knock 417 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: on his door Friday, but I'm not going to name 418 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: him unless he talks to me. Okay, but jeez, that 419 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: fucker looks like I mean. 420 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 13: You know, we talked early on about a little bit 421 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 13: of victimology, but you know, you also have to think 422 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 13: about suspectology going back and looking at his history. He 423 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 13: just made comments at Walmart at other places of. 424 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 5: Employment to females. 425 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 13: So I'm talking sexual advances and sexual harassment, and he 426 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 13: would come into Phillips there more Dana worked and other 427 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 13: females that work there and make those comments to them. 428 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: This type of misogynistic criminal treatment of women was common 429 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: and sadly normalized back in the eighties and nineties. Sexual harassment, 430 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: cat calling, demoralizing and abusive as it was, was barely 431 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: frowned upon back then. But what Hunter Portray tells me 432 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: next Pruce, the sexual harassment Lenny had been allowed to 433 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: get away with was next level. 434 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 13: There was also a female in Bentonville and she was 435 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 13: actually driving to work and he got in behind her 436 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 13: and almost ran her off the road and followed her 437 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 13: all the way up to the parking lot there at 438 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 13: Phillips where she ran inside, and she pretty much penned 439 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 13: it as that was. 440 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 5: You know, he made comments when. 441 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 13: He was interviewed as far as was it possible that 442 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 13: he may have stopped Dana, Well, maybe you know she 443 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 13: had a flat tire or something like that, which again circumstantial, 444 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 13: but we know that Dana had a low tire. He 445 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 13: also made comments of somebody had a seat belt or 446 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 13: something that was hanging out the door or something. He 447 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 13: would just stop people and not that he just would, 448 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 13: but that he had in the past stopped. 449 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 5: People for things. 450 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 13: He's one of those guys that, you know, by his 451 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 13: own admission, would could talk to anybody. He kind of 452 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 13: played it off as far as comments that they were 453 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 13: harmless that I just you know, I think he made 454 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 13: one comment to a girl, had she ever been eight? 455 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 13: Which has sexual you know in the windows there, but 456 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 13: he referred to it as well. She just took it wrong. 457 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 13: I was talking about her age, you know, comments like that. 458 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: Another thing we weren't aware of or knew much about 459 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: in the eighties was gaslighting. Didn't he show up at 460 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: a store once in a ski mask? 461 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 13: He showed up outside and made a comment, but he 462 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 13: was wearing like a ski mask, and they asked him 463 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 13: about that, and he says, yeah, you know, if it's 464 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 13: cold outside and sometimes I wear a ski mask. But 465 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 13: it's not like I was trying to rob anybody or 466 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 13: anything like that. 467 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what he drove at the time. He 468 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: drove a station wagon and a truck, right. 469 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 13: A few different vehicles, you know, And he was kind 470 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 13: of looked at initially because he worked. 471 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: For the company Lieutenant Petray Mentions here conducted work all 472 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: over Bella Vista and up toward the Missouri border where 473 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: Jane Doe was discovered. Lenny, in his forties, then living alone, 474 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: traveled all over those areas. And I should know this 475 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: was at a time when Dana Stidham worked at Phillips. 476 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: You see, Lenny knew her from going into that store 477 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: for breakfast and lunch nearly every day. 478 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 13: They did find some maps in his vehicle, but yeah, 479 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 13: he would have known the area like good because they 480 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 13: worked there. 481 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: Those maps, I might add, were marked with a pen 482 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: in areas where Dana was seen during the time she 483 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: was missing. 484 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 10: And he was an army guy too, right, the military. 485 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 13: Yeah, And in fact, I think even when he was 486 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 13: doing some stuff, he would still do some weekend stuff 487 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 13: with the military. 488 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: Sheriff Don told me the other day, he said, yeah, 489 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: he went down went down to Panami. Yeah, track that 490 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: Panama allegation included Lenny beating a sex worker. Do you 491 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: think Dana's case is connected to those cases? 492 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 5: Well, I can't rule it out. 493 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 13: And here's why I say that is, so you have Dana. 494 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 13: In summer of eighty nine, we had another case that 495 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 13: we call a bone woman, which we've now identified. Oh, 496 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 13: you have Yeah, that was in February of ninety. There 497 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 13: was another individual first part of ninety that was just 498 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 13: a couple of miles away from where Dana was found, 499 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 13: off that same road. And then of course you had 500 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 13: the one just across the line there in McDonald County. 501 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 13: All of this stuff within a year, like four homicides 502 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 13: within a one year period. Now, bone woman, we've been 503 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 13: able to identify and we pretty much we've closed it out. 504 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 13: We have a suspect, but the suspect's dead. We're pretty 505 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 13: sure that he did it, so we've closed that case out. 506 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 13: Don't think it's connected to the others. But when you 507 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 13: get that many homicides in that short of a period, 508 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 13: and also within that condensed area, you can't rule it out. 509 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: I asked about any similarities the BCSO found in Dana's 510 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: and Jane Doe's cases and if they considered the bindings 511 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: important within that scope. 512 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, she was bound for certain. 513 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 11: For sure. 514 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 13: We can't say that Dana was. We've got some red twine, 515 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 13: that's all we got. Possibly maybe, but you know, the 516 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 13: crime lab, the Emmy's office couldn't get any connection that 517 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 13: that stuff had. 518 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 5: Been used as any type of ligature or anything, So 519 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 5: maybe I don't know. 520 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 13: You know, when you start talking about Dana's case and 521 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 13: when you start looking at victimology, you know, Dana, you 522 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 13: look at low, moderate, high risk. To me, when I 523 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 13: look at this case and put everything together, Dana is 524 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 13: or was high low to modern risk. And I say 525 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 13: that just because of the lifestyle. But the lifestyle was 526 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 13: that of a teenager that runs around. Yeah, they party 527 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 13: at times, you know, they drink at times, But by 528 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 13: no means was her risk what I would consider high risk. 529 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 13: When you start talking about high risk, you start talking 530 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 13: about prostitutes. 531 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 5: So when you look at. 532 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 13: Dana, I don't see that same similarity. 533 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: Remember Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard in previous episodes. 534 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: He had gotten hold of some information about one of 535 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: Lenny's ex wives and eventually wound up speaking to her. 536 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 7: I remember her bringing up the fact they never found 537 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 7: Dana's purse. That was brought up unprompted, which stood out 538 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 7: to me because a year or so later she mentions 539 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 7: that this suspect might have had female purses at his 540 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 7: mother's house. 541 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: His ex wife insinuated that he had a fetish for 542 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: purses and he collected them. If you recall, although the 543 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: contents of Dana's purse were found, her large, unique denim 544 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: bag was not. 545 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 7: She also mentions that they met hitchhiking in the early 546 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 7: eighties and that they struck up a relationship. That's pretty 547 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 7: much it that She tells Binton County, Well, not only 548 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 7: did they meet hitchhiking, but he made sexual advances fairly 549 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 7: quickly in the vehicle. 550 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: Linny's ex wife went on to say she knows her 551 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: ex husband killed Dana, but doesn't think there is any 552 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: way for law enforcement to prove it. She mentioned finding 553 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: blood in a station wagon they owned, and remembered him 554 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: cleaning it and throwing his clothes away afterward. The way 555 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: she put it, he covered his ass when it came 556 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: to Dana. But get this, she was also there on 557 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: the Lenny flunked a polygraph and when he came out 558 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: of the room quote, he had a look on his 559 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: face like he knew he was caught. The oscar Talie 560 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: Jane Doe took on a different name not long after 561 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: her remains were discovered. It was clear early on that 562 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: identifying Jane Doe was going to take time and technology, 563 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: if it was even possible. So clear in fact, a 564 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: detective said in passing one day, only by the grace 565 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: of God, will you identify her? From that moment on, 566 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: she became Grace Doe, which is an important moment in 567 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: this case. The name Jane Doe is such a common 568 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: reference that it fails to conjure emotion or personalize in 569 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: an unidentified murder victim. Jane Doe suggests a more societal 570 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: need to help. But place another name in front of 571 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: Doe and suddenly there's an emotional connection. Based on the 572 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: state of decomposition, the only option to identify her was 573 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: to send dental X rays in for comparison, considering there 574 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: were several missing girls in the area fitting her general description, 575 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: in particular twenty one year old Patricia Ann Smith from Glencoe, Oklahoma, 576 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: and thirty four year old Trevor Ann Castile from Springfield, Missouri. 577 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: Within two weeks, both tests came back negative, no match. 578 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: Not knowing the identity of Grace Doe made finding her 579 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: killer that much more difficult, and, as Detective Lorie Howard explains, 580 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: when she came aboard in two thousand and seven, she 581 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: started literally from scratch without a body. 582 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 8: Couldn't find her. I couldn't find the evidence. I couldn't 583 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 8: find skeletal remains. I didn't have a report, so essentially 584 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 8: I still just had a story. Years later, driving people 585 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 8: absolutely crazy, I called the Emmy's office. 586 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 16: I called Columbia. I made various trips to North Carolina. 587 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 16: I went all over the place, and then one day. 588 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 8: I got a phone call from the Emmy's office in Colombia. 589 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 16: And she said, Okay, I found her. 590 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 8: So I immediately made a trip back up to Columbia, 591 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 8: Murray and I retreat her skeletal remains. 592 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: The first goal was to get a facial reconstruction done 593 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: so they had some idea of what she might have 594 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: looked like. This would also allow the Sheriff's department to 595 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: reach out publicly. While I was in Missouri, I met 596 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: with Sheriff Rob Evenson from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office. 597 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: Grace Stowe's murder is Evenson's case. 598 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 10: And when she's found, what happens. What was the most 599 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 10: difficult thing about it? 600 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 17: The most difficult thing about it, this goes on for 601 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 17: nearly thirty years, was to get an identification of who 602 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 17: the remains belonged or who. 603 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: She was, So you have a young woman her exact 604 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: age a guess found off the side of a secluded 605 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: backcountry road with houses and farms spread sporadically all over 606 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: the place. Nobody knows who she is. There are no 607 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: missing person reports linked to her, and she had been 608 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: out in the elements for about two. 609 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 17: Months, and so she went nearly thirty years without having 610 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 17: a name to go with those remains. 611 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 10: So it's hard to work a case if you're in 612 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 10: an investigator when you don't have an ID. 613 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 17: And my previous employment identity detective for about nine years, 614 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 17: so I've worked a fair number of homicides, and of 615 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 17: course that is the first thing besides your immediate crime scene, 616 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 17: that's the first thing that you need to do is 617 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 17: get your victim identified. Your victimology usually leads you to 618 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 17: your suspects and it leads you to the solution of 619 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 17: the case. 620 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 10: Okay, so her case goes cold because they can't identify her. 621 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 10: So there's really nothing you can do, right, I mean, 622 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 10: you can send DNA out, but at the time DNA 623 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 10: is in its infancy. 624 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 17: That's correct. Of course, technology has changed so much over 625 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 17: the most recent few years, so new opportunities, new tools 626 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 17: every year, things get better and better with DNA technology. 627 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 17: Of course, Laurie worked on this in her off time, 628 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 17: in her downtime when she wasn't working on something else, 629 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 17: and just kept trying and kept trying, and kept try ryan, 630 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 17: and eventually she was able to get with somebody with 631 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 17: a laboratory that was able to extract that DNA. 632 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: Extracting DNA from advanced decomposed remains is not as simple 633 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: as taking a hair or tissue sample and sending it 634 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: off to the lab for a profile. It's a complicated 635 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: scientific process with many different variables involved, chief among them 636 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: the funding to get the DNA to a place where 637 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: it's scientifically possible to even create a profile. Here's Lorie 638 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: Howard again. 639 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 8: I needed to get DNA in the system, and that 640 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 8: was actually harder than it sounds. 641 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 16: What I had was a fingernail. I had some hair. 642 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 8: So I was talking to North Texas Health and Human 643 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 8: Sciences in Texas and I was pretty much begging them 644 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 8: to take a fingernail and they said, you know, I 645 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 8: don't think I don't think it's going to work. It 646 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 8: doesn't mean our protocol speak. They're funded, and how they're 647 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 8: funded sometimes requires them to have a particular way of 648 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 8: receiving evidence. But they eventually said, okay, let's just see 649 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 8: if we can get some mitochondrial DNA, and I sent 650 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 8: them part of a fingernail. The mitochondrial DNA went into 651 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 8: the system but wasn't very helpful. 652 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: Of course, McDonald County's goal was to submit Gracetow's DNA 653 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: to all the ancestry genealogical forensic databases, with the hope 654 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: that someone with a connection to Grace was in one 655 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: of those databases. 656 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 8: I kept saying, can you please go back and look 657 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 8: and see if you have a Janeo? And they just 658 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 8: repeatedly said, no, I don't think we have anything that 659 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 8: meets what you're giving us. It was a matter of 660 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 8: figuring out what my best source of DNA might be, 661 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 8: and ultimately I took her mandible and I sat one 662 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 8: evening and extracted her teeth because I knew the molars 663 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 8: would probably be my best source. 664 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 10: Now she had really good teeth. She did, she did, 665 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 10: and what did that tell you? 666 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 8: I spoke to the forensick orthodonist and he basically said, 667 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 8: this woman was well cared for. But that was kind 668 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 8: of a dichotomy for people that aren't in the system 669 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 8: are not reported as a missing person. So I had 670 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 8: a hard time figuring out she was either loved and 671 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 8: had a good life and was well taken care of, 672 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 8: versus she's not in the system, nobody's recorded or missing. 673 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 16: Is she a runaway? So it tells you a lot 674 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 16: about the care generally speaking, but. 675 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 8: In her case that that wasn't the case because she actually. 676 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 16: Grew up in foster care. 677 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,879 Speaker 1: Another major hurdle, gray Stow had been bounced from home 678 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: to home. None of these families would have a blood 679 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: DNA connection to her. That other possibility of an expensive 680 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: facial reconstruc dirouction gnawed at Lorie. She needed to know 681 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: what this woman might have looked like, even more importantly, 682 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: getting that image out onto social media and the Internet 683 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: to see if anyone recognized her. 684 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 8: So ultimately what happened is I I asked Victoria Livewood 685 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 8: Forensic Reconstruction, it's out of Canada, to help me. And 686 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 8: I was very upfront and said I can't pay you. 687 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 8: I'm asking you for a lot and I really need it. 688 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 8: And Victoria was gracious and the best person to work with, 689 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 8: and she said I'll do it. But then the problem 690 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 8: became you can't just ship a skeletal remains over the border. 691 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 8: So I ran up against an I how am I 692 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 8: going to do this? And so I called our local 693 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 8: hospital in Neoshio, Missouri, and I spoke with some on 694 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 8: the board and I said, I'm about to ask you 695 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 8: something and I don't want you to tell me no. 696 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 8: And he said, oh, dear, and he said okay. And 697 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 8: I said, I really want to bring a skull and 698 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 8: mandible into you of a deceased person, a homicide victim, 699 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 8: and I'm asking you to take MRI an MRI photos 700 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 8: you know of the skull and mandible and give me 701 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 8: some images for free. 702 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 16: And he said, oh, oh, okay, I see. 703 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 8: And I said, please, I have no funds, I'm working 704 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 8: with very limited funds, but I have. 705 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 16: To do this. 706 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 8: And so he said, if you will bring her in 707 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 8: in the middle of the night, you know, midnight till 708 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 8: one o'clock, in a box covered, I don't want any 709 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,439 Speaker 8: anybody to touch this, I don't want to know you're here. 710 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 16: Essentially, just do what you have to do and I'll 711 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 16: set it up. 712 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:52,959 Speaker 10: And he did. 713 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 16: And so what I didn't know at the time was 714 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 16: that's never been done before. 715 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: They wound up using over three hundred images out of 716 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: what were hundreds of thousands. 717 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 8: And then I sent them, of course digitally to Canada, 718 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 8: and she had never worked that way either, so it 719 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 8: took a long time. She said, what do you think 720 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 8: the color of the eyes, the hair. We went back 721 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 8: and forth for a really long time. Clothing, and to 722 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 8: Victoria's credit, she said, this was the eighties, tell me 723 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 8: what this jean jacket looked like. She searched and found 724 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,800 Speaker 8: the identical clothing for the most part that she was wearing, 725 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 8: and for I'm going to say probably two years. We 726 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 8: went back and forth with this process, and true to form, 727 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 8: one day I come in and I open up and 728 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 8: I'm looking at my emails, and it says, Laurie met 729 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 8: Grace and there she was, there, her Grace. 730 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 10: And so what did she look like to you when 731 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 10: you saw that? And then she who was she? 732 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 16: She looked exactly like I thought she would look like. 733 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 16: I didn't know her, but Yana knew her, and she 734 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 16: looked exactly like what I thought she would look like. 735 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 16: And I just knew this was really who she is. 736 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 8: And I was so comfortable with it that I immediately 737 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 8: start calling media and said, hey, I want her everywhere. 738 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: The reconstruction by Victoria Linwood, which is available online with 739 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: a quick Google search, depicts a woman with brown hair, 740 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: brown eyes, and olive skin. She appears to be in 741 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 1: her late twenties early thirties. 742 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 10: Now when does she get identified? 743 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 16: The answer to that is forensic genealogy. 744 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: Submitting Grace's DNA into the forensic genealogy databases and thus 745 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: paying for it fell on Sheriff Rob Evenson's office. 746 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,919 Speaker 17: Well, we have to give credit to Mike Hall. Mike 747 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 17: was the former sheriff and he was sheriff until the 748 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 17: end of twenty twenty. And while he was in office, 749 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 17: he did keep Grace's case alive and he was able 750 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 17: to get hooked up with a lab that where he 751 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 17: was able to submit her DNA profile and this lab 752 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 17: was able to do some of this forensic genealogy and 753 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 17: came up with a possible familial match. 754 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: The company involved, Oathram, was able to extract DNA from 755 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: Grace Doe's remains and more significantly, create a profile that 756 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: was September twenty twenty. By January twenty twenty one, Oathram 757 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 1: called the McDonald County Sheriff's office. They had a match. 758 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 1: Grace Doe is Shawna Garber, and yet identifying Shauna produced 759 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: an entire new set of difficulties because though they had 760 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: a name, when Shauna was in her early teens, she 761 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 1: disappeared from any public record. She simply had no history. 762 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: What's more, the life Shauna ran from and the one 763 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 1: she ran toward turned out to complicate Detective Laurie Howard's 764 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: murder investigation even further. 765 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 6: I think it was KU Medcenter. At first she was 766 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 6: in the hospital near to Pete. I think it was 767 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 6: to Peka, and then she was transferred to the KU Medcenter. 768 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 6: Was she sick, No, she was burned. 769 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: How was she burned? 770 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 6: Our mother Ford lighting fluid on her. 771 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 5: And lit a match. 772 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,280 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Paper Ghosts, check out my other podcasts, 773 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: Crossing the Line with m William Phelps and White Eagle 774 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: wherever you get your favorite shows. Coming up next on 775 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts. 776 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 4: Well, first, he chose his own moniker, Find them, torture them, 777 00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 4: kill them. 778 00:46:59,600 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 7: Bet. 779 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 6: She was removed from several foster homes because our mother 780 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 6: would interfere, to the point she even threatened to kill 781 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 6: one foster family's kids. Our mother was an evil, vindictive 782 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 6: spawn Accoult. 783 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: I just remember being in the basement of this individual's 784 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: house and there had to been like over one hundred 785 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: spools of different chords. 786 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 5: It just was pretty ominous. 787 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: Paper Ghost Season four is written and executive produced by 788 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by Rose Baci, sound 789 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,359 Speaker 1: design by Matt Russell, executive production by Catherine Law, and 790 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Takaboom Productions. The 791 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: series theme and four four to two is written and 792 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,839 Speaker 1: performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Won.