1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Good morning and Marry Christmas to you and your family. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: This morning I'm joined by Bishop Robert Baron, the ninth 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester and the founder 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: of Word on Fire, which I recommend to everyone. Bishop Baron, welcome, 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on News World here at Christmas. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: Would you mind starting us off with a message about 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: Christmas and what it means to you? Well, first of all, 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: thank you for having me on. It's good to be 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: with you, and Marry Christmas to all the listeners today. 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: You know something the Church Father said over and over 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: again was God became man, that man might become God. 12 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: And it might seem a little peculiar at first, but 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: it's based in the Bible, namely, that God becomes one 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: of us precisely to draw us into his life. So 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: the Greek fathers talked about theosis in their language, but 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Thomas Aquinas picked it up in the West. He was 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: the word deificatsio deification that we become sharers in God's nature. 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: God became one of us that we might become sharers 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: in his own life. And that I think is the 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: deepest meaning of Christmas. It's the message of the incarnation, 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: So not just a sort of a strange one off, 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 1: but something that's at the very heart of our life. 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: That God is not just a moral exemplar for us, 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: but God is calling us into intimacy with Himself, and 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: that happens through the incarnation, and that's the message of Christmas. 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: God becomes this little baby. God joins us in our weakness, 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: our vulnerability, our finitude, that we might become sharers in 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: his own nature. I always call it the marvelous humanism 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: of Christianity. There's no humanism, ancient or modern, that holds 30 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: out a higher ideal for human beings than Christianity, because 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: the ordinary goal of the Christian life is to become 32 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: a sharer in God's nature. So the humanism of our 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: tradition is grounded in this great feast of Christmas. In 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: your own experience, how did you open up to God? Well, 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: because I'm born and raised a Catholic, and so I 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: was brought up in the Church and going to Mass, 37 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: and my parents were very devout Catholics. An experience that 38 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: I remember very vividly is I'm a kid of about 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: four or five at the time, maybe and simply watching 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: my father at prayer on his knees at Mass. You know, 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: I thought of my father as the most powerful person 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: in the world, and to see him humbly in the 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: presence of a power greater than himself. That had a 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: huge impact on me when I was a little kid. 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: But then in a more refined way, when I was 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: in high school, I discovered Saint Thomas Aquinas. And though 47 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: I was a believer in God, to be sure, but 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: when I came across the arguments for God's existence, I 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: realized that you could think about God in a very 50 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: serious way, an intellectually serious way, And that beguiled my 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: mind when I was a kid and led me to 52 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: books and ideas and all that, and then it began 53 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: to reach into deeper parts of my soul. It reached 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: my heart. But I'd say the witness of my parents, 55 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: especially my dad, and then the emergence of Thomas Acquaintas 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: in my life when I was a teenager, those both 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: had a huge impact on me. As you have grown 58 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: in Christ, you created word on fire which anybody can 59 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: access in the world. What led you to that? It's 60 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: a great profound breakthrough in being able to share the 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Gospel worldwide. You do it as well as anybody I know. 62 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. You know. I was a teacher at 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: the seminary outside Chicago, so I had been sent for 64 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: my doctoral studies to Paris. Loved books, love the Life 65 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: of the Mind, got my doctorate, was able to travel 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: through Europe, and I had all those great experiences. Came 67 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: back and I was a teacher for a number of years, 68 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: taught courses. I began to write books. I was on 69 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: the Catholic speaker circuit, you know, going around giving retreats 70 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: and talks and so on. But it began occurred to 71 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: me by the late nineties, so I've been teaching now 72 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: for seven or eight years, that there was so much 73 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: more we could do. I could spend the rest of 74 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: my life. I thought, you know, writing books for a 75 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: relatively small audience and giving talks to rooms of two 76 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: or three hundred people. But I said, why not do 77 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: what Fulton Sheen did back in the thirties, forties and fifties. 78 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: I mean, why not use the technology available to us now? 79 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: When I started, it still was basically TV and radio 80 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So I went to WGN 81 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: Radio in Chicago, the biggest radio station, and I said, 82 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: just for fun, tell me how much would it cost 83 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: to have a little sermon show. And they said to me, well, 84 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: for fifty thousand dollars, we'll put you on at five 85 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: to fifteen on Sunday morning. So I went to my 86 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: parish and I said, you just that, if you're willing 87 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: to help me, I can get on the radio at 88 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: five fifteen. And God bless them they did. They gave 89 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: me the money and that's how it started. It grew 90 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: then to a website, and then I started recording a 91 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: number of talks I've been giving. Was got on Catholic 92 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: television and my profile, you know, grew a bit. And 93 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: then we had a breakthrough with the Catholicism series, which 94 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: was modeled after Kenneth Clark's Civilization, which is a show 95 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: that impacted me when I was a kid, this great 96 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: English art historian taking us all over the Western world 97 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: and showing us the great works of art. I said, 98 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 1: why not do something like that with Catholicism. So again 99 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: scraped together the money. Somehow we did that, and that's 100 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: then really what brought it to a different level. And 101 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: then we began the podcasts and the YouTube and all 102 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: that business. But It started with just my conviction that 103 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: we should be doing more, that we could do more, 104 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: that Fulton Sheen was the model, but we had kind 105 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: of dropped the ball after Fulton Sheen. So that's what 106 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: inspired me. Bishop Shane made Christianity totally practical and totally irrelevant, 107 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: and did so with a sense of humor. He was 108 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: a great showman. He had a certain genius, and part 109 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: of it was he was very highly trained in Catholic 110 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: philosophy and theology. He had the aguaje, which is this 111 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: advanced degree in theology from Louvaine University. So Sheen was 112 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: a high level academic, but he also had his finger 113 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: on the pulse of the culture. He understood American culture. 114 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: For example, he used a lot of psychology, He used 115 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot of Freud because he knew that Freud was 116 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: sort of making his way into the culture. He engaged 117 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: in a lot of polemics against communism, which was a 118 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: major political theme of the day. So he combined a 119 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: rich Catholic intellectual formation with a keen understanding of the culture. 120 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: And as you say, I think the humor was very 121 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: important for she The greatest comedians of the day, you know, 122 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: Jackie Gleason and Milton Borrow admired his timing, his comic timing, 123 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: so she was able to pull that off in a 124 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: rather extraordinary way. And at the time there were what 125 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: a handful of TV stations, and so if you get 126 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: on television in those days, you were reaching much of 127 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: the country. It's hard nowadays, with extraordinary range of opportunities, 128 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: to remember what it was like back then. Right, there's 129 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: a flip side to it, because now we can be 130 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: twenty four to seven all over the world and all 131 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: these different platforms. Sheen had to rely on people coming 132 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: in a particular time on the radio or TV to 133 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: hear him. In a way, we're in a much better 134 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: position than Sheen was in. You make the point that 135 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: when we talk about the Christmas Story, we look at 136 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: Luke's account, the story really opens up by invoking two 137 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: of the most powerful people in the world. It says, well, 138 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: Corinius was the governor of Syria, and when Caesar Augustus 139 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: was king of the world, census was called. It never 140 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: quite occurred to me until I've read your work that 141 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: I'd always seen that as kind of placing it historically. 142 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: But there's also drawing a contrast that these two guys 143 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: had secular power, but here comes this little baby who 144 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: in fact will have far more power. There's no question 145 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, Luke, all the gospel writers were 146 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: literary as well as theological geniuses. And the way he 147 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: uses Choirenius and Augustus to kind of haunt your mind 148 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: as you read that story. So these figures would have 149 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: had all the things that we associate with worldly power. 150 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: They honor and prestige, and they had armies behind them, 151 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: and they had a comfortable place to live and all 152 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: of that. And then Luke tells this story of this 153 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: little nothing couple making their way to this dusty outpost 154 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: and the baby, it can't even be born in the 155 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: Travelers hostile is born in a cave or a stable, 156 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: is put in the place where animals eat, is wrapped up. 157 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: In other words, has no power, no prestige, no honor. Yet, 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: And I think the key to that story is at 159 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: the end when the angel who always inspires fear in 160 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: the Bible, when an angel appears from another dimensional system, 161 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: but then appearing with the single angel is an entire 162 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: army of angels. And see that's no accident that an 163 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: army is associated with the Baby King, which is far 164 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: more powerful than the army associated with Quirinius or Caesar Augustus. 165 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: And you know what I find extraordinary there is here's 166 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: a man writing this story, let's say, around the year 167 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: eighty or so of the century, when Christians were a tiny, 168 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: tiny minority in a handful of cities in the eastern Mediterranean. 169 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: And yet he was saying very clearly, this baby, this 170 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Messiah is more powerful than Caesar. And at the time, 171 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it was an incredible thing to say. But 172 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: yet it's true, isn't it. I mean, we're still here 173 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: and Caesar's long gone. I mean, Christianity, those following the 174 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: Baby King, we're still a great worldpower. Two thousand years later, 175 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: the Caesars are long gone. And so the gospel writers 176 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: they got something, they understood something I think here even 177 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: in our own time. You know, you and I lived 178 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: through the fall of the Soviet Union. Who would have 179 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: guessed when I was a teenager in the seventies and 180 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: someone told me that the Soviet Empire would collapse with 181 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: barely a shot being fired, and that the Pope would 182 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: be a major player, and that would be wild fantasy. 183 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: That's what happened, and the Christmas Story, you're quite right, 184 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: is about that dynamic that the true king and the 185 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: true army are more powerful than the armies of the world. 186 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: Close and I did a movie called Nine Days to 187 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: Change the World. How about John Paul the second going back? 188 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: And it's astonishing the impact he has and the greed 189 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: to which he suddenly arouses the Polish people. You're quite right, 190 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: and that's it's marvelous your documentary and that whole story 191 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: is marvelous. But it calls to mind the Stalin line, right, 192 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: it was about Pious the Twelve. How many divisions as 193 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: the pope have when the pope critiqued him. Well, the 194 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: successor of Pious the Twelve brought down the successor of 195 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: Stalin without a single division. But it speaks to spiritual power, 196 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: which we've always known about. Spiritual power can change the 197 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: whole world. There's a great line in the movie where 198 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: George Weigel quote Stalam and then says, you know, it 199 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: turned out that the Pope had far more divisions than 200 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: Stalin never imagined. That's quite right, and that signaled in 201 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: the Christmas story when this invisible army, see others don't 202 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: sentimentalize the angels of Christmas. They're on every Christmas card 203 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: and we sentimentalize them, but they're not sentimental figures. In 204 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: the Bible. Angels are always ferocious figures. They're fearsome figures. 205 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: And now you get an army of those together. That's 206 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: what's associated with the Baby King, which means the powers 207 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: of the world should tremble, because at the heart of 208 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: Christianity is a sort of taunt to worldly power, because 209 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: we hold up the Cross, which struck first century people 210 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: as exceedingly strange that you would hold up the image 211 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: of someone being tortured to death by Roman power. But 212 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: that's the kind of delicious poetry of Christianity, as we 213 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: hold that up as a sort of taunt to the 214 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: world to say, well, we're not afraid of what you 215 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: can do to us, because God's love is more powerful 216 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: than anything that you have. And that's not just wishful thinking. 217 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: You can see it in the John Paul's story. What 218 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: do you think most Christians miss from the celebration of Christmas? 219 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: They miss the radicality and subversiveness of it, the two 220 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: things we've been talking about, because we sentimentalize it. That's 221 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: the problem it's Dickens, and Dickens was a great figure 222 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: at a great Christian I want to be bad mouthing Dickens, 223 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: But we associate Christmas now with you know, the Dickenzie 224 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: in London, and we sort of romanticize it. But Christmas 225 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: in the Bible is subversive and it's radical. God becomes 226 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: one of us that we might become sharers in his nature. 227 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: And God becomes one of us in order to lead 228 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: a great spiritual army whose purposes to conquer the world. 229 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: And so in Jesus, the risen Christs go forth and 230 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: proclaim the Gospel of all nations and to bring them 231 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: under the lord Ship of Jesus. Well, that's not whistling Dixie. 232 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a very powerful summons. And the lordship 233 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: of Jesus means just that that he wants all of 234 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: life brought under his sovereignty. I think that's what people 235 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: miss when it comes to Christmas. I always look back 236 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: on this with amazement that here's this very small number 237 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: of people who in their hearts are so passionately, deeply 238 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: committed that within a century they're a worldwide movement. You 239 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: look at that and you think something mystical happened. Something happened. Well, 240 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, I rely there on nt Right, the great 241 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: biblical historian, because Right said, present from religion for a minute. 242 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: Just from a purely historical standpoint, what is very hard 243 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: to explain is the emergence of Christianity as a messy 244 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: annic movement. And what he meant was, at that time 245 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: and place, the clearest sign possible that you were not 246 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: the Messiah of Israel would be your death at the 247 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: hands of Israel's enemies, because the Siah was meant to 248 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: be the king of the nations. And so if someone 249 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: wanted to say, look, your guy, is not it, all 250 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: you'd have to do is say, look the Romans put 251 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: of the death. Well, Christianity didn't hide that. On the contrary, 252 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: Paul says, it's all I preach is Christ and him crucified. 253 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: But at the same time they said, yeah, the one 254 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: that Caesar crucified, he is the Messiah of God. And 255 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: then to your point, it shows something happened. Even to 256 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: explain the emergence of this movement apart from the resurrection, 257 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: it's very hard to explain it. It's the empty tomb. 258 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: This is the moment of realizing that the effort of 259 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: the establishment, both the Jewish establishment and the Roman political establishment, 260 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: has failed. The Christ, in fact is not dead. He 261 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: was temporarily gone and is now back right. The most 262 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: fundamental form of charigmatic preaching, so called the karigma, being 263 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: the basic good news. The basic form is Caesar killed him, 264 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: God raised him. That's what the first preachers said. You 265 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: kill them, your people, kill them, God raised them. That's 266 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: the curigma, and that is a subversive sort of message. 267 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: That's a very challenging message, which is why most of 268 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: the first Christian preachers ended up in prison and put 269 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: to death, because the powers that be understood that. They 270 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: knew how radical this message was. Even Paul saying again 271 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: and again as he does, Jesu's curious, Jesus is Lord 272 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: because Kaiser was curious Caesar was lord in that time 273 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: and place and sort of say, no, not Caesar, but 274 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: Jesus is Lord. That's why Paul was in prison a lot, 275 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: and why they eventually cut his head off is they 276 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: knew how subversive that was. We've lost a lot of 277 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: that edginess. I'm afraid. Part of it is you have 278 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: to have people who believe so deeply that they regard 279 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: having their head cut off as a reasonable trade. It 280 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: is in that sense in the early days a religion 281 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: of martyrs, over and over again witnesses and the blood 282 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: of the martyrs the seat of Christians, as Allan said, 283 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: and that's exactly how it worked. But see it still works. 284 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: When I was filming the Catholsam series, we were in 285 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: Namogongo near Kampala, and that's where Charles Lwanga and his 286 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: companions were murdered in the late eighteen hundreds, and anyone 287 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: watching that would have said, well, that's the end of Christianity. 288 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: But now every year on his feast stage Dune the third, 289 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: something like a million people converge on that spot. And 290 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: when I was there filming, I was just sort of 291 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: moved to quote Tertullian. I said, the blood of the 292 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: martyrs is still the seat of Christians. And take a look. 293 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: And then the camera panned out to this enormous crowd. 294 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: So it's still true. It's still true when you were 295 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: at Mass and you take the Eucharist, the representation of 296 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Christ and the degree to which Christ is in you. 297 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: Two thousand years later, as experienced by well over a billion, 298 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,479 Speaker 1: three hundred million people, is an astonishing statement of faith. Yeah, 299 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: it's the distinctive mark of Catholic Christianity is we don't 300 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: think of Jesus as simply an inspiring teacher or a 301 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: distant historical figure. We eat him and we drink him, 302 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: We take him into our bodies. The Church Father said 303 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: that it's the way we become immortalized, so preparing ourselves 304 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: to live forever. Well, we become immortalized through the Eucharist, 305 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: so that the kind of wonderful, gritty realism of our 306 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 1: eucharistic faith, that Jesus is really truly and substantially present. 307 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: That matters a lot, because otherwise it's easy to think 308 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: of him, make him a very abstract figure. But no, 309 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: we eat him and we drink him, and in that 310 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: process there is a personal experience. It seems to me 311 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: that when you go, for example, in Rome, to certain 312 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: key places where they are martyrs, and you realize that 313 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: these people, in a sense, we're happy to be martyred. 314 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: They were dying in the absolute faith of rebirth, and 315 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: they felt that the people who weren't prepared to be 316 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: martyred were much poorer, and we're not going to in 317 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: fact be reborn yeah, and I think that's true in 318 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: those days and true in our time. Think of a 319 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: Maximian Colbe and the depth of the Holocaust in Auschwitz, 320 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: but willingly gives his life to save someone else. That's 321 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: someone who's living in a different plane and someone who's 322 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: opened up a depth dimension to life. Is still true 323 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: the Great Martyrs, and that's still the source of the 324 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: church's deepest life. What was it like to move from 325 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: Los Angeles to Minnesota? It felt like I'm home. I 326 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: loved LA. I'm from Chicago originally, and I was a 327 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: priest there and I was rector of the seminary there. 328 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: I love Chicago, but I'm, you know, very used to 329 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: the Midwest and Midwestern weather. I was sent to California, 330 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: to my infinite surprise. I was made an auxiliary bishop 331 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: out in LA and I was based in Santa Barbara, 332 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: which is one of the loveliest places in the whole country. 333 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: I loved it beautiful. But when I got the call, 334 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: and that's how it happens in the church. No one 335 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: ever talks to you. You've got no advanced warning whatsoever. 336 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: It's not discussed with you in any way. You just 337 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: get a phone call out of the Blue, and it 338 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: was you've been appointed to the Bishop of Winona Rochester, Minnesota. 339 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: My first thought was, I got to take out my 340 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: Chicago winter Code again, which had been hanging up for 341 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: six years in my closet. It felt like coming home. 342 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: I felt like coming back to a culture I was 343 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: very at home with. Given modern technology, do you find 344 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: it for all practical purposes as easy to do? Word 345 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: on fire from Winona or Rochester. We're moving our studio 346 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: to Rochester, right near the Mayo Clinic. We're moving right downtown. 347 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: We had it in Santa Barbara at the wonderful Santa 348 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: bar Remission. We were on the grounds of the mission. 349 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: We just picked up all the equipment, shifted it out 350 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: here and we rented a space and we're building it 351 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: out now as a studio. But see to your point. 352 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: People said to me, oh, you know you were out 353 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, and wasn't that better for communication? And I said, well, 354 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: first of all, I wasn't in Hollywood. I was two 355 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: hours out in Santa Barbara. And secondly, I said, we 356 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: had our own equipment and studio, and I can do 357 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: it just as well from here as I could from there. 358 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: So that doesn't make a lot of difference. How much 359 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: of your time does it take because it's brilliantly done. Well, 360 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: that's dude to my team. One of my team members 361 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: is right here next to me as I record this. 362 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: We have about sixty people in Dallas, Chicago, now Rochester. 363 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: They're the ones who are so good at the creative 364 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: side of it and the tech side. I'm not very 365 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: good at the tech side of it. I would say 366 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: it takes about ten percent of my time. I usually 367 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: write a column every week, I do a commentary every week. 368 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: We filmed sermons, I have a couple of podcast shows. 369 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: So maybe it takes ten percent of my time. But 370 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: most of my time now I'm the bishop of the diocese, 371 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: so I'm going to meetings, doing liturgies. This morning, had Mass, 372 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: and then going for another Mass later in the day. 373 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: So that's my work. That's ninety percent of my work, 374 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: and this is about ten percent. I was very impressive. 375 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: Your YouTube videos have been seen way over ninety million times. 376 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: It's one hundred and twenty million now, I think is 377 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: it one hundred and twenty million? Yeah, And my wife 378 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: is one of the half million people who get your 379 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: daily email reflections and she literally has told me of 380 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: several people who've come to her and who have been 381 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: moved to convert to Catholicism by listening to your reflections. 382 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: That's the whole plaison d'etre. That's the entire reason we're 383 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: doing this. So nothing makes me happier than that. And 384 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: I think it's very important because every generation has to 385 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: operate within the world that they've discovered. I was really 386 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: struck a couple of years ago. I was reading a 387 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: novel about Paul and the Corinthians, and I hadn't realized it, 388 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: but the Romans had created this amazing postal service. And 389 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: one of the reasons you get all of Paul's letters 390 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: is whether he's in Malta or wherever he is, he 391 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: can literally write his dispatches and mail them. And so 392 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: here is the secular Roman imperial mail carrying this subversive 393 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: message all over the Mediterranean that would eventually undermine Caesar. 394 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: And that's been observed, you know, for a while. So 395 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: I think Christopher Dawson makes that observation too, that at 396 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: the moment when it was most needed, there was a 397 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: political structure. Think of the Roman roads, as you say, 398 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: the Roman postal system and relative peace. So we just 399 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: finished all the awful civil wars with Caesar and Anthony 400 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: and Cleopatra and all that was over, and so there 401 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: was kind of a relative piece obtaining in the Roman world, 402 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: and that enabled the message to get out. And Paul 403 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: used the technology of his time, which was Roman roads 404 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: and parchment and the postal system. So that's what every 405 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: generation has to do. Can you talk about the Word 406 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: on Fire Institute and why you decided to found it? Yeah, Well, 407 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: the Word if Our Institute was founded at what about 408 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: four years ago now, and the idea it's a kind 409 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: of a think ten that's part of its purpose. We're 410 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: gathering fellows who are supposed to do research and writing 411 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: and producing of courses. So it's an online reality for 412 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: the most part. So people join the Institute, they become members, 413 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: and then they get access to all of our video material, 414 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: but also to specialized courses in theology, spirituality, practical evangelism, etc. 415 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: So the idea of the Institute is on the basis 416 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: of the fellows in their work to form laypeople in 417 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: the work of evangelization, because finally they're in the front 418 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: lines of it. I want to form laypeople to evangelize 419 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: their own families, their own kids, their own workplaces. So 420 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: that's the point of the World on Fire Institute. And 421 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: we do it through the fellows and the courses and 422 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: articles and books that they produce. And one of your 423 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: biggest timpacts has been the award winning documentary series Catholicism, 424 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: which you syndicated, which was nominated for an Emmy. That 425 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: was a pretty courageous thing to tackle a project of 426 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: that size. You know where that came from, I'll tell 427 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: you exactly. It was at a board meeting. This is 428 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: the early days. We didn't have much of a reach 429 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: in those days. And a board member said to me, father, 430 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, if you're going crazy, dream big, what's your 431 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: dream project? And I laid out that project. I said, 432 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: what Kenneth Clark did in the seventies for Western Civilization, 433 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: I'd like to do for Catholicism. That we'd go all 434 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: over the world, we'd film the most beautiful places, we 435 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: would do it at a high level of production value. 436 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: So they paused and they said, well, how come we 437 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: can't do that? I said, well, first of all, I 438 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: need the permission of my bishop. It was Cardinal George 439 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: at the time was a great hero of mine, and 440 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: I said, then we probably need I don't know, several 441 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: million dollars, and so they started working at it. They 442 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: went down and talked to the cardinal without me that 443 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: the board went down and said could you give him 444 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: permission to do this? And he said yes. And then 445 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: we started fundraising and we scraped the money together. When 446 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: we got enough for an episode, we'd go and we'd 447 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: film and all that, and then we back to zero. 448 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: We started filming by the Way twenty eight, and it 449 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: was in the fall of twenty eight that the economy collapsed, 450 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: and so a lot of our donors I remember saying, hey, father, 451 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: I want to help you, but I can't right now. 452 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: The stocks are so bad and you know, I'm losing money. 453 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: So we scraped our way over two years and then 454 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: got that thing filmed. We did a little bit of 455 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: that in order a couple of movies we made, including 456 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: Nine Days that changed the world new I hope you 457 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: can pull it all together, because you can't start until 458 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: you're sure you can actually get it done. It's a 459 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: huge project. It is a huge project, and the people 460 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: involved in that were marvelous and one of them was 461 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: Mike Leonard. I don't remember that name. Mike was with 462 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: the Today Show for many years. He did kind of 463 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: human interest stories feature pieces on Today Show, and I 464 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: knew him from my parish in Chicago, and he's the 465 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: one that linked us to a lot of NBC people 466 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: around the world and so on. But we were sitting 467 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: I remember, for episode one, we're filming in the Holy Land, 468 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: and we are in a pizza restaurant in Jerusalem and 469 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: we're having dinner, and he said, you know, the church 470 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: has been going through such a time. Is twenty eight 471 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: so we're just a few years after twenty o two, 472 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: and he said, I wonder, you know, this could be 473 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: a tipping point, maybe we could start moving things back. 474 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: And so that stayed in my mind. That's what we 475 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: wanted to do, was present the Catholic Church in its truth, 476 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: it's beauty in a way that would be evangelically compelling. 477 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: And we didn't know when we were making it. We 478 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: had no idea what the distribution strategy would be. We 479 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: had no idea if we could get it widely viewed, 480 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: and it was PBS came through and then they syndicated 481 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: it and it went all over the country. Well, it's 482 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: an amazing achievement. And now you have your newest book, 483 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: The Great Story of Israel Election, Freedom, Holiness, and I 484 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: gather that's the first of a two part series, it is, 485 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: and that's growing out of this wonderful Word on Fire 486 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: Bible project. So we've now published two of these, the 487 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: third ones coming out pretty soon. It's just an exceptionally beautiful, 488 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: I think presentation of the Bible. We have the Biblical text, 489 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: but then it's surrounded by commentaries. It's a bit like 490 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: the glosses from the Middle Ages when they would have 491 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: the text and then the commentary. But we're drawing from 492 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: the Church Fathers, from Acquinas, from John Paul the Second, 493 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: from Chesterton and Newman and everybody else. And then I've 494 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: got some commentaries in there too, and then also on 495 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: the page are beautiful works of art. And so it's 496 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: just a very holistic approach. And our hope was to 497 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: draw people that wouldn't normally pick up a Bible and 498 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: they see small prints and double column pages and lots 499 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: of footnotes and they say, oh, I'm not going to 500 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: read that. That this would draw them into the beauty 501 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: of the Word of God and the first volume. Heck, 502 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: I think that sold three hundred thousand copies. It was 503 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: just the Gospels, and then we did the rest of 504 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: the New Testament. And the third one coming out is 505 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,239 Speaker 1: the first five books of the Old Testament. So my 506 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: book there that you referred to, it grew out of 507 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: that project. So as I'm doing all this commentary in 508 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: the Bible, it grew into really a book length thing, 509 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: and that's volume one. I'm looking at roughly half the 510 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: Old Testament. There, all under the rubric of trying to 511 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,239 Speaker 1: draw people back to the Bible. When you go back 512 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, there was a lot of effort 513 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: to use beauty to bring people together, many of whom 514 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: couldn't read that they could see the pictures. They could 515 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: get a feel for the storylines if you will. Yeah, 516 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: but see the church I grew up with. I come 517 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: of age in the seventies. Right. First of all, we 518 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: dumbed it down. That was a huge mistake. Catholicism is 519 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: a smart tradition, but we dumbed it down. My generation 520 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: got butterflies and banners Catholicism, and it was a disaster pastorally, 521 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: because what happens is kids grow up and they have 522 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: serious questions and they're getting nothing like serious answers to them. 523 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: The second thing we did wrong in that period is 524 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: that we uglified Catholicism. Look at the churches built at 525 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: that time, the seventies and eighties. They're like these empty 526 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: Bauhaus modernist structures and had nothing of the charm of 527 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: the Romanesque or the Gothic or the ancient basilicas and 528 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: they became just sort of empty gathering places. Well, a 529 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: dumbed down, uglified Catholicism is not compelling to people. And 530 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: you know, my generation answered by leaving in droves. You know. 531 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: So one of the things I've been animated by is 532 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: a desire to make it beautiful and to make it smart. 533 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: And I think those two things are appealing to people. 534 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: They always happen. I have a good friend, Liz lev 535 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: who is a remarkable student of religious art and history, 536 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: and she says that the Sistine Chapel and michel Angelo 537 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: was the Church's answered to Martin Luther, that the effort 538 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: to say to people that there is a glory, there's 539 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: an amazing beauty. And of course he visit the Vatican Museum. 540 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: You're sort of surrounded by it. It's amazing. It's a 541 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: very good point about Luther, because, as you suggest there, 542 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: he was against what he called the theology of glory 543 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: and he wanted purely the theology of the cross. And 544 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: there's a complex history behind that. But the Catholic Church 545 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: responded with Michelangelo and with Bernini and with Caravaggio and 546 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: responded with beauty. You do display the glory of God 547 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: through artistic beauty. And I think one of the signs, 548 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: one of the clearest signs of corruption, is when we 549 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: start destroying beautiful things. And we did that at the 550 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: time of the Reformation, we did it in the ancient 551 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: Iconoclass period, and honestly, we did it in my lifetime. 552 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: We destroyed a lot of beautiful things, and that's a 553 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: sign of corruption. Dumbing down Catholicism and uglifying it our 554 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: signs of corruption. I think that's right. And listen, I 555 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: think you are one of the people standing firmly for tradition. 556 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: It's a remarkable thing, and thank you for joining me. 557 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: I want to wish you a very very merry Christmas 558 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: and a happy New Year, and I want to encourage 559 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: our listeners to visit your website ad Word on Fire 560 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: dot org, where they can find more of your sermons, 561 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: articles and books. And I want to thank you personally 562 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: for joining me on news World. Mister speaker, thank you 563 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: very much. Merry Christmas to you. It was a joy 564 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: to talk to you today. Thank you to my guests, 565 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: Bishop Robert Baron. You can get a link to Word 566 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: on Fire on our showpage at newtworld dot com. Newt 567 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: World is produced by Gingwich Street sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 568 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: executive producer is Gardens Slop, our producer is Rebecca Howe, 569 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 570 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks the team 571 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: at Gingwish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 572 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 573 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 574 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 575 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: news World can sign up for my three free weekly 576 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwich Street sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 577 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: new Gingwish. This is Newtworld