1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin hey slight changed listeners. It's Maya this summer. We're 2 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:27,956 Speaker 1: revisiting four of your all time favorite episodes. For the 3 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:31,036 Speaker 1: third episode in the series, we're hearing from Amanda Knox. 4 00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:34,996 Speaker 1: I had read so much about Amanda's story over the years, 5 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: but I still found myself surprised and awed by what 6 00:00:38,796 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: she shared with me in this conversation. She's one of 7 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: the most psychologically wise people I've ever met, and I'm 8 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:47,436 Speaker 1: excited for you to listen to this for the first 9 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: time or to revisit it. 10 00:01:01,396 --> 00:01:06,876 Speaker 2: When I was told you're guilty and you are sentenced 11 00:01:06,916 --> 00:01:11,116 Speaker 2: to twenty six years, I mean everything I thought to 12 00:01:11,156 --> 00:01:14,716 Speaker 2: be true about the world collapsed in on itself and 13 00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:20,556 Speaker 2: I had this kind of quick an adaptation in my 14 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 2: mind where I thought, Oh, I'm not this lost tourist 15 00:01:25,796 --> 00:01:29,916 Speaker 2: who's waiting to go home. I am a prisoner. Like 16 00:01:29,956 --> 00:01:32,636 Speaker 2: this isn't just a thing that is happening to me. 17 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 2: This is my life, and whether or not it's based 18 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 2: in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined a killer. 19 00:01:40,556 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Knox describing the moment when an Italian court 20 00:01:43,796 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: found her guilty of a heinous crime she did not 21 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:50,836 Speaker 1: commit the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. Amanda was 22 00:01:50,876 --> 00:01:53,956 Speaker 1: just twenty years old when this all unfolded. She spent 23 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 1: four years in an Italian prison before she was finally 24 00:01:57,076 --> 00:02:01,196 Speaker 1: exonerated and allowed to return home to America, but the 25 00:02:01,236 --> 00:02:04,036 Speaker 1: reality of what she faced upon her return was not 26 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:05,676 Speaker 1: at all what she expected. 27 00:02:06,196 --> 00:02:09,676 Speaker 2: When I first came home, I thought that I was 28 00:02:09,716 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 2: going to get to have the life that I had 29 00:02:13,396 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 2: left behind back that once this is all worked out 30 00:02:17,876 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 2: and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I get to 31 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:23,356 Speaker 2: go back to my life that I lost that was 32 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 2: on pause, and I realized that that life didn't exist anymore. 33 00:02:30,716 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: On today's episode, what happens when the world simply won't 34 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:39,236 Speaker 1: let you move on? I'm Maya Shunker, and this is 35 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, a show about who we 36 00:02:42,156 --> 00:02:44,676 Speaker 1: are and who we become in the face of a 37 00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 1: big change. You know, to begin with it, it's so interesting. 38 00:02:51,676 --> 00:02:54,276 Speaker 1: Typically for a guest with your story, you know, I 39 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: would do the work of trying to figure out, Okay, 40 00:02:56,996 --> 00:02:59,796 Speaker 1: how do I summarize for the listener what it is 41 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:02,956 Speaker 1: that this person has gone through. But because so many 42 00:03:02,956 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 1: people have tried to appropriate your story over the years. 43 00:03:05,796 --> 00:03:08,316 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. I want this, Amanda. 44 00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 1: I want to hear your story in your. 45 00:03:10,676 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 2: Words, absolutely, and thank you for that. When I was 46 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 2: twenty years old, I decided that I wanted to study abroad. 47 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 2: I ended up choosing a program in a really small, 48 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 2: ancient city in the middle of Italy called Perusia. I 49 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 2: moved into an apartment in a small house overlooking this 50 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:37,396 Speaker 2: beautiful valley with three other young women, two Italian girls 51 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:40,556 Speaker 2: and a British student who was just like a year 52 00:03:40,556 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 2: older than me named Meredith. And the day after Halloween, 53 00:03:45,156 --> 00:03:49,116 Speaker 2: on November first, I was hanging out with my new 54 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:55,676 Speaker 2: love fling of five days, Rafaeli Salchico, and Meredith was 55 00:03:55,716 --> 00:03:59,796 Speaker 2: home alone and a local burglar named Rudi Gaudet broke 56 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 2: into our home and raped and murdered her and then 57 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 2: fled the country. And I discovered all of this by 58 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 2: coming home next day to take a shower and noticing 59 00:04:11,796 --> 00:04:15,956 Speaker 2: that our home was in disarray. I had I brought 60 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 2: Raphaela over, we called the police together. The police came 61 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 2: and discovered the crime scene, Meredith's body, which fortunately I 62 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 2: never had to see in person, but unfortunately there was 63 00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:31,916 Speaker 2: a lot of frantic energy, a lot of confusion, a 64 00:04:31,956 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 2: lot of fear. In those opening days after the murder 65 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 2: was discovered, it was immediately of tremendous public interest. International 66 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 2: media was descending upon Perusia, talking to any single person 67 00:04:46,476 --> 00:04:50,076 Speaker 2: that they possibly could. Meanwhile, I'm spending hours and hours 68 00:04:50,116 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 2: and hours at the police station trying to help the 69 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 2: police uncover what happened to my friend. And I spent 70 00:04:57,356 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 2: about fifty three hours over five days in that police office, 71 00:05:02,196 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 2: being questioned over and over and over again, telling them 72 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 2: the same story that I've been telling them, what happened 73 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 2: that as far as I knew, and they were telling 74 00:05:11,276 --> 00:05:14,676 Speaker 2: me that I was wrong, that everything that I remembered 75 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 2: was wrong, that I was traumatized, and that my freedom 76 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 2: and my access to my family depended upon me remembering 77 00:05:24,676 --> 00:05:29,756 Speaker 2: something that I couldn't remember. And I was alone, I 78 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 2: was speaking of foreign language, I was without a lawyer, 79 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:36,116 Speaker 2: I was asking for my mom, I was asking for 80 00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:40,276 Speaker 2: any help whatsoever, and instead I got slapped and screamed 81 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:44,196 Speaker 2: at for hours until I was willing to sign a 82 00:05:44,196 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 2: statement that they wrote implicating my boss Patrick the Mumba. 83 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 2: I caved. It was the only thing that made sense 84 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 2: to me anymore. I started to doubt my own sanity 85 00:05:55,596 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 2: and I signed those papers and they immediately ran off 86 00:06:00,916 --> 00:06:04,556 Speaker 2: to go arrest my boss Patrick, and I was finally 87 00:06:04,636 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 2: left alone to breathe and think straight after hours of 88 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 2: horrible treatment, and I immediately recanted. I told them, oh 89 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:19,236 Speaker 2: my god, there's a huge mistake. I was under a 90 00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:24,116 Speaker 2: lot of pressure. I don't actually remember witnessing any murder whatsoever. 91 00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:27,796 Speaker 2: They wouldn't listen to me. They told me that with time, 92 00:06:27,876 --> 00:06:30,076 Speaker 2: my memories would come back, and that I just needed 93 00:06:30,116 --> 00:06:33,636 Speaker 2: to be quiet, And like just a few days later, 94 00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 2: I was brought before a judge and finally finally told 95 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 2: you are under investigation for the murder of Meredith Kircher. 96 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 1: So there's a few critical moments in what you just 97 00:06:45,156 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: described that I'm interested to hear more about, in particular 98 00:06:49,676 --> 00:06:52,236 Speaker 1: what your psychology was like at the time, as well 99 00:06:52,276 --> 00:06:55,716 Speaker 1: as how you might think differently about that experience now. 100 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: And the first is, you know, when you were trying 101 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: to be helpful to the police right to help identify 102 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:06,956 Speaker 1: who the murderer was, they began using aggressive interrogation tactics 103 00:07:06,996 --> 00:07:11,356 Speaker 1: on you. As you said, they accused you of having amnesia. 104 00:07:11,796 --> 00:07:16,516 Speaker 1: It led you to engage in false confessions, and I 105 00:07:16,556 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: can only imagine how traumatizing it is to go through 106 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:23,556 Speaker 1: something like that, especially when you don't understand that the 107 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: human mind is in fact capable of such things, right. 108 00:07:26,916 --> 00:07:29,516 Speaker 1: I think it is actually really hard for most people 109 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 1: to appreciate the conditions under which they would be likely 110 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:38,116 Speaker 1: to generate false memories or false confessions. And I think 111 00:07:38,196 --> 00:07:40,596 Speaker 1: the reason why I feel like this is such an 112 00:07:40,636 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: important part of your story to bring to light is 113 00:07:43,036 --> 00:07:48,476 Speaker 1: that when you are made to question your own sanity, 114 00:07:48,996 --> 00:07:55,156 Speaker 1: your own ability to accurately reason about the world around you, 115 00:07:55,916 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 1: that is damaging. That puts you in a state where 116 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:02,796 Speaker 1: I imagine it's easy to feel broken because you start 117 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:06,436 Speaker 1: asking yourself questions like how is I capable of that? 118 00:08:06,556 --> 00:08:10,876 Speaker 1: How is I capable of implicating this totally person? Yeah? 119 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's actually a really interesting way of framing 120 00:08:15,636 --> 00:08:19,756 Speaker 2: that question, because of course, going into an interrogation room, 121 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:23,796 Speaker 2: you don't think I would ever say anything that would 122 00:08:24,156 --> 00:08:26,716 Speaker 2: that I don't know to be true, and that would 123 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:29,436 Speaker 2: that would implicate me or not be to like you know, 124 00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:32,996 Speaker 2: that could be compromising to oneself, Like that's that is 125 00:08:33,156 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 2: it's so counterintuitive. I didn't know that this was possible. 126 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 2: I didn't even know that police could lie to you 127 00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:41,396 Speaker 2: like I did. I just there was so much I 128 00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:46,956 Speaker 2: didn't know, and I, therefore, like my my instinct when 129 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 2: all of this became a catastrophe was to blame myself, 130 00:08:51,196 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 2: because I didn't know else who else to blame. I 131 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: didn't know that there was a specific police interrogation technique 132 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:02,356 Speaker 2: designed to break down people to just admit to something. 133 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:08,596 Speaker 2: And it wasn't until a cognitive scientist who studies false 134 00:09:08,636 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 2: confessions reached out to me, and it was while I 135 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:14,836 Speaker 2: was still in prison, it was after I had been convicted. 136 00:09:15,676 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 2: He didn't share any research with me at first. He 137 00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:21,356 Speaker 2: just said, please describe everything you can possibly remember about 138 00:09:21,356 --> 00:09:23,876 Speaker 2: your interrogation and send it to me. So I did, 139 00:09:23,956 --> 00:09:26,956 Speaker 2: and it was it was hard even doing that because 140 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 2: it was the scariest moment of my life, the most 141 00:09:30,116 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 2: confusing moment of my life, and it's the moment of 142 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 2: my life that I felt the most shame about, because 143 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 2: I just I couldn't explain even to myself why it happened. 144 00:09:41,116 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 2: I honestly couldn't. I just felt like there was something 145 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 2: wrong with me, and I was the only one in 146 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 2: the world that had ever happened to as far as 147 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:50,476 Speaker 2: I knew, and of course everyone was judging me as 148 00:09:50,516 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 2: a bad person because of it. And then he responded 149 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 2: by sending me back his research, and his research showed 150 00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:02,996 Speaker 2: that the exact way that they had broken me down 151 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 2: was just like, you know, point for point, just how 152 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 2: you break down innocent people. And that moment of relief 153 00:10:15,956 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 2: and self forgiveness was tremendous for me because it was 154 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:25,556 Speaker 2: at that point that I really really understood that my 155 00:10:25,676 --> 00:10:29,316 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction wasn't really my fault, that I had been 156 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 2: set up, and that there were a lot of forces 157 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 2: at play, a lot of people who had, you know, 158 00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 2: a ton of agency in this equation, and I was 159 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 2: the least among them. I was at the mercy of 160 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 2: people who were not just taking advantage of me, but 161 00:10:47,916 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 2: actively trying to destroy my life. 162 00:10:51,596 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to talk for a bit about the 163 00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 1: time that you spent in prison, because you spent four 164 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: years in full, but at one point you were sentenced 165 00:11:02,356 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 1: to twenty six years in prison. Yes, and as an 166 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:09,716 Speaker 1: early twenty something, twenty six years is like your entire 167 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:10,476 Speaker 1: freaking life. 168 00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:13,396 Speaker 2: It is your entire freaking life. 169 00:11:13,916 --> 00:11:17,356 Speaker 1: I want to know what was your relationship with Hope 170 00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:20,636 Speaker 1: during your time in prison, and I'm just curious if 171 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:21,636 Speaker 1: you can dig into that a bit. 172 00:11:22,276 --> 00:11:27,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. And it's interesting how I had, like 173 00:11:27,676 --> 00:11:31,316 Speaker 2: this tremendous shift happen because the first two years, while 174 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 2: I was still on trial and believing that all of 175 00:11:33,436 --> 00:11:37,876 Speaker 2: this was just a huge out of proportion misunderstanding, I 176 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 2: was convinced that I was going to eventually be going home, 177 00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:44,996 Speaker 2: and there were moments in that time where I was 178 00:11:45,036 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 2: just like, oh my god, you know, I've been here 179 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 2: so long, Like I missed my twenty first birthday that 180 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:54,276 Speaker 2: I you know, I'd always thought, oh I would go 181 00:11:54,356 --> 00:11:57,356 Speaker 2: and have a drink with my dad. Nope, that didn't happen. 182 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 2: So feeling like I was losing really important parts of 183 00:12:02,276 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 2: my life, but ultimately thinking, this is a really really 184 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 2: long nightmare that does have an expiration date, and that 185 00:12:09,556 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 2: expiration date is the verdict. And my family, especially my mom, 186 00:12:14,556 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 2: very much like that was sort of our mantra that 187 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 2: there is a light at the end of this very 188 00:12:18,796 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 2: long dark tunnel. And when I then was told you're 189 00:12:25,876 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 2: guilty and you are sentenced to twenty six years I mean, 190 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 2: everything I thought to be true about the world collapsed 191 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:38,276 Speaker 2: in on itself. I very much felt like the ground 192 00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 2: beneath me had fallen away and I had nothing to 193 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 2: stand on. I literally collapsed between my attorneys and then 194 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 2: the guards sort of had to carry me out of 195 00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:50,876 Speaker 2: this courtroom where I'm hysterical, like unable to believe what 196 00:12:50,996 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 2: is happening. And I had this very very i mean 197 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:02,916 Speaker 2: kind of quick an adaptation in my mind where I thought, oh, 198 00:13:03,476 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 2: I'm not this lost tourist who's waiting to go home. 199 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 2: I am a prisoner, Like this isn't just a thing 200 00:13:12,076 --> 00:13:14,796 Speaker 2: that is happening to me. This is my life. This 201 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:17,676 Speaker 2: is my life now, and whether or not it's based 202 00:13:17,716 --> 00:13:21,556 Speaker 2: in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined a killer, 203 00:13:22,076 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 2: and I have just been told the only place that 204 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 2: you belong is behind bars for the majority of your life. 205 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:32,716 Speaker 2: And all those things that you thought that you would 206 00:13:32,756 --> 00:13:35,436 Speaker 2: get to have in your life, a family, a career, 207 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:40,956 Speaker 2: the opportunity to be with your family and watch your 208 00:13:40,996 --> 00:13:43,636 Speaker 2: nephews grow and your kids grow, and all of these 209 00:13:43,676 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 2: things that I thought were going to be a part 210 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:48,036 Speaker 2: of my life were not a part of my life. 211 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 2: That was never going to be a part of my life, 212 00:13:51,076 --> 00:14:00,116 Speaker 2: and what is my life? Then? Who am? I? And 213 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 2: my mom had a very different relationship with hope than 214 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:07,956 Speaker 2: I did. She didn't have that shift happen when I 215 00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 2: was convicted. She looked at this and I think just 216 00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 2: out of desperation, like, oh, the tunnel is just longer 217 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:16,276 Speaker 2: than we thought it was. But you are going to 218 00:14:16,276 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 2: get out. You are going to be found innocent, you 219 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:21,276 Speaker 2: are going to be vindicated. You are innocent, You're my daughter, 220 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:24,636 Speaker 2: You're going to come home. And after my conviction, I 221 00:14:24,676 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 2: wasn't sure about that anymore, Like I didn't have any 222 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 2: reason to believe that anymore. And I ended up having 223 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:35,596 Speaker 2: really really difficult conversations with her where I said, well, 224 00:14:36,116 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 2: I hope that happens, mom, But if it doesn't, I 225 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:43,036 Speaker 2: hope that I can achieve this goal in the prison environment. 226 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 2: Or I hope that one day I'll be able to, 227 00:14:45,836 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 2: you know, write about my experience so that i'm you know, 228 00:14:49,036 --> 00:14:53,396 Speaker 2: at least one voice voicing my experience in this huge, 229 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 2: you know, world of voices who are calling me a murderer, 230 00:14:57,116 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 2: and maybe one day it'll matter. I hope that I 231 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 2: stay healthy. I hope that I don't get sick like 232 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:08,076 Speaker 2: all these things. And my mom viewed that as a 233 00:15:08,156 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 2: kind of mental giving up, like I had given up 234 00:15:11,356 --> 00:15:14,196 Speaker 2: on the fight for my innocence. And I hadn't. It's 235 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 2: just that I had to live. It was very apparent 236 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 2: to me that I was not like at the end 237 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:24,836 Speaker 2: of the day, every day I went back to my cell, 238 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 2: back to my cot and that's where I stayed. 239 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:32,196 Speaker 1: Amanda, how do you get through those days? I mean, 240 00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: you said, you're having to confront this idea of inhabiting 241 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,916 Speaker 1: this new identity, this identity that's been thrust upon you, 242 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: which is prisoner, and it's been unjustifiably thrust upon you. 243 00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 2: Well, the first step was acknowledging that this is a community, 244 00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:53,636 Speaker 2: but it is full of a lot of a lot 245 00:15:53,676 --> 00:15:57,836 Speaker 2: of human suffering and a lot of humanity. I lived 246 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 2: alongside people who had done really horrible things, and these 247 00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:06,756 Speaker 2: were my people, I guess is a way of saying 248 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:09,716 Speaker 2: it like this, this was my community, whether I liked 249 00:16:09,716 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 2: it or not. And I started to realize that I 250 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 2: wasn't just sort of a separate or a part entity 251 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 2: of it. I was an integral entity in that community. 252 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 2: And I started to think about what is my role 253 00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 2: in it? What can I do? What is the best 254 00:16:30,196 --> 00:16:33,756 Speaker 2: thing that I can do in that space? And so 255 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:37,036 Speaker 2: I ended up spending a lot of time helping people 256 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 2: write letters. Another job was simply acting as translator. There 257 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:44,636 Speaker 2: was no translator available to any of the prisoners, so 258 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:48,436 Speaker 2: any prisoners who didn't speak Italian had no way of 259 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 2: knowing what court documents they were signing or how to 260 00:16:52,756 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 2: tell the doctor that they weren't feeling well. And so 261 00:16:55,636 --> 00:17:00,916 Speaker 2: I was constantly called in to help other prisoners understand 262 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:05,036 Speaker 2: what was happening and translating for them. 263 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 1: What was your contact with the outside world like during 264 00:17:08,836 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 1: this time? I mean, did you have family and friends' 265 00:17:12,876 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 1: emotional psychological support helping to ground you in your new reality? 266 00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:21,676 Speaker 2: So the thing that was the hardest for my family was, 267 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:24,356 Speaker 2: of course that they at a certain point they couldn't 268 00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 2: hold my hand, right like at the end of a visitation, 269 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:31,956 Speaker 2: they went one way and I went another. And I 270 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 2: know that like if my mom could have traded places 271 00:17:35,196 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 2: with me, she would have in a second, but she couldn't. 272 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:41,436 Speaker 2: So all they could do was try to remind me 273 00:17:41,756 --> 00:17:45,276 Speaker 2: that I didn't belong there, that I had a home 274 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 2: and I had a life, and I had people who 275 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:50,956 Speaker 2: cared about me waiting for me. So I had one 276 00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:54,156 Speaker 2: ten minute phone call a week. Every every week, my 277 00:17:54,236 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 2: family and friends piled into my mom's house for a 278 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:00,516 Speaker 2: six am ten minute phone call just to hear my 279 00:18:00,636 --> 00:18:03,436 Speaker 2: voice and let me know that they were they remembered me, 280 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 2: and that they cared about me. And one day I 281 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 2: was waiting at my cell door like usual because I 282 00:18:13,116 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 2: knew the exact time that I would go and have 283 00:18:15,676 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 2: my call, and the guard didn't come, and I called 284 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 2: out agente la telephonata guard guard my phone call, and 285 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:35,556 Speaker 2: I called again. No one answered. I called again, No 286 00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 2: one answered. I spent a good half an hour getting 287 00:18:40,796 --> 00:18:46,596 Speaker 2: more and more anxious and miserable and desperate and crying 288 00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:51,516 Speaker 2: and yelling and feeling like a caged animal, until finally 289 00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:55,156 Speaker 2: a guard came up and was like, what the hell 290 00:18:55,196 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 2: are you screaming about? And I was like, my phone call, 291 00:18:57,916 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 2: my phone call? Have I missed my phone call? And 292 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:02,676 Speaker 2: they said, we're not doing phone calls today, we're low, 293 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:05,796 Speaker 2: we're short staffed, we're not doing phone calls today. They 294 00:19:05,916 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 2: just approached me and were like, what are you crying about? 295 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:13,116 Speaker 2: Like shut up? And that was one of those moments 296 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:17,316 Speaker 2: where I felt like, Wow, I am subhuman right now, 297 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 2: Like it didn't even occur to them to tell me. 298 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:24,676 Speaker 2: It didn't occur to them that would matter to me, 299 00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 2: and it was. I had this moment of worry that 300 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:34,716 Speaker 2: no matter how hard my family and friends tried, our 301 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 2: lives were diverging so drastically that we would become strangers 302 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:43,876 Speaker 2: to each other despite our best efforts, just because I 303 00:19:43,916 --> 00:19:47,636 Speaker 2: was living such a different existence than they were, and 304 00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 2: my world and my opportunities and the psychological effort that 305 00:19:53,636 --> 00:19:56,316 Speaker 2: I had to put in to deal with the situation 306 00:19:56,436 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 2: that I was in was very different than theirs. Yeah. 307 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you paint the scene for me of the 308 00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:07,156 Speaker 1: day that you were acquitted? 309 00:20:07,676 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 2: Yes? 310 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: What was that day? 311 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:16,396 Speaker 2: Like? That was a really bizarre day that I'll just 312 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:19,876 Speaker 2: have to describe it to you. So I got up, 313 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 2: I got dressed, I did the normal going down, get 314 00:20:22,796 --> 00:20:25,636 Speaker 2: into the prison van. I was brought up into the courtroom. 315 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 2: Everyone had their final word and the court was dismissed 316 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 2: for the day, and I was brought back to the 317 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 2: prison and I knew that it was going to take 318 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,276 Speaker 2: a long time, that I had several hours ahead of me. 319 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 2: Of not knowing what was going to happen. I tried 320 00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 2: to distract myself in the meantime, and I had a 321 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 2: very hard time of it. And ultimately my relief came 322 00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 2: when the prison chaplain, who had become a good friend 323 00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:53,036 Speaker 2: of mine, despite the fact that I'm actually, you know, 324 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:58,156 Speaker 2: an atheist, he invited me down into his office like usual, 325 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 2: and we played music together. He had this keyboard and 326 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 2: he taught me how to play, and so I started 327 00:21:07,636 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 2: playing this song that I had learned, and he uh 328 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:16,116 Speaker 2: surreptitiously took out this tape recorder, which he was absolutely 329 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 2: not allowed to have, and he was like, I really 330 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:22,196 Speaker 2: want to record you because this is maybe the last 331 00:21:22,236 --> 00:21:27,316 Speaker 2: time I hear your voice. So we sang, we played 332 00:21:27,396 --> 00:21:31,916 Speaker 2: music together. At a certain point, I sat down on 333 00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 2: the couch with him, and you know, he was talking 334 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:36,996 Speaker 2: to me about how I was feeling and if I 335 00:21:37,036 --> 00:21:40,276 Speaker 2: was afraid, and and eventually I went back to my cell, 336 00:21:40,356 --> 00:21:43,436 Speaker 2: but I spent I spent many hours just in the 337 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:49,916 Speaker 2: office with him, just crying and talking. And then finally 338 00:21:50,036 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 2: in the evening they brought me back in and hearing 339 00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:09,796 Speaker 2: him say acquitted and that she goes free, I I 340 00:22:09,796 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 2: I broke down at that moment too, like that I 341 00:22:12,876 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 2: had hoped and I was afraid to hope, and so 342 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:18,476 Speaker 2: suddenly this hope was alive for me again. Suddenly I 343 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:20,716 Speaker 2: was like, if I'm in this dark tunnel and I've 344 00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:22,756 Speaker 2: closed my eyes to the light that is about to 345 00:22:22,836 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 2: hit me, I was suddenly just like flooded with light, 346 00:22:25,996 --> 00:22:31,516 Speaker 2: and I collapsed again, just hysterical, just crying, crying, crying, 347 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 2: and to such a degree that the guards who were 348 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:39,276 Speaker 2: with me, they thought that I had misunderstood the verdict. 349 00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 2: They thought that I had heard guilty, when in fact 350 00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:43,436 Speaker 2: I had heard innocent, and so they were trying to 351 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:46,276 Speaker 2: tell me, no, it's okay, you won, you won, and 352 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 2: I was just like I know, I know. And then 353 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 2: they brought me back to the prison to gather my things, 354 00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:54,476 Speaker 2: but not in a prison van. They put me in 355 00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 2: a police car where I could actually look out the 356 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 2: windows and like a person again. And as I got 357 00:23:02,676 --> 00:23:06,756 Speaker 2: back to this to the prison, like everyone was looking 358 00:23:06,756 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 2: out their windows waiting to see it, and ever one 359 00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 2: started banging pots and pants and screaming their heads. 360 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:15,116 Speaker 1: Off, just le Berda le Berta. 361 00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 2: And then it was a whole high speed chase out 362 00:23:18,756 --> 00:23:21,276 Speaker 2: of the prison to get to Rome, to where my 363 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:26,396 Speaker 2: family was, to a secret location. And it was very, 364 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 2: very the most Jason Bourne scenario that I've ever been in. 365 00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:36,996 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 366 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:51,196 Speaker 1: of plans. After spending four years behind bars for a 367 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 1: crime she didn't commit, Amanda Knox was finally exonerated and 368 00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 1: she soon headed back home to America. 369 00:23:58,476 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 2: I was afraid to go to sleep, worried that it 370 00:24:02,516 --> 00:24:04,716 Speaker 2: would mean that I would actually wake up in prison, 371 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 2: like I had that moment where I was just trying 372 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:09,996 Speaker 2: to stay awake as long as I could, because I 373 00:24:10,036 --> 00:24:13,036 Speaker 2: was like, is this the dream? Am I just having 374 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 2: the most vivid dream of my life? Or or is 375 00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:23,636 Speaker 2: this real? And when I first came home, I thought 376 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 2: that I was going to get to have the life 377 00:24:26,436 --> 00:24:31,636 Speaker 2: that I had left behind back I thought that, you know, 378 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 2: I was under that same misconception that once this is 379 00:24:36,836 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 2: all worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then 380 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:42,476 Speaker 2: I get to go back to being me. I get 381 00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 2: to go back to my life that I lost that 382 00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 2: was on pause, and I slowly realized. I realized that 383 00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:55,036 Speaker 2: that life didn't exist anymore. And the reason I knew 384 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:57,956 Speaker 2: it didn't exist anymore, is because I couldn't go out 385 00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:02,476 Speaker 2: of my apartment building without you know, paparazzi following me 386 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:05,796 Speaker 2: to school, and I couldn't. But even beyond that, like 387 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 2: I also couldn't meet people who hadn't heard of me before, 388 00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:13,596 Speaker 2: like you know, people in my classes who are taking 389 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 2: pictures of me and posting them to social media and 390 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 2: saying like, oh my god, I'm in you know, look 391 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:22,756 Speaker 2: who's in my class. And the murderer, you know. So 392 00:25:23,556 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 2: I knew that. I slowly realized and came to grips 393 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:32,676 Speaker 2: with the fact that not only was the outside world 394 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 2: not going to let me go back to my life, 395 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:40,276 Speaker 2: but also I was living now with experiences that I 396 00:25:40,316 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 2: couldn't just put behind me as if they never happened. Right, 397 00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 2: I had lived four years in prison, and I had 398 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:52,676 Speaker 2: been on trial for murder, and that, despite all of 399 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 2: my best efforts, had left an impression on me. And 400 00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:00,316 Speaker 2: now I was really really sensitive to certain things, like 401 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 2: I to this day, I do not I do not 402 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 2: farewell when someone accuses me of something that I didn't do, 403 00:26:07,716 --> 00:26:12,516 Speaker 2: even if it's small, because it's just it's so triggering 404 00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:19,036 Speaker 2: that I'm very sensitive to it. And it hurts a lot. 405 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 2: So I had to come to an understanding that the 406 00:26:28,276 --> 00:26:31,596 Speaker 2: world was not the same place for me anymore. My 407 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 2: role in it was not what I thought it could be, 408 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:37,356 Speaker 2: and I had to figure out what was the best 409 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 2: thing that I can do and try to do it 410 00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:43,236 Speaker 2: despite the fact that I also knew that there were 411 00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 2: legions of people rooting against me, hoping that I would 412 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:52,396 Speaker 2: live up to the Foxy Noxie narrative that I would 413 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:54,916 Speaker 2: be just as bad as everyone thought I would be. 414 00:26:55,636 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: And you were also put back on trial, right, which 415 00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:01,196 Speaker 1: compounds the narrative that people want out of you. 416 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:06,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And when the Supreme Court in Italy 417 00:27:06,716 --> 00:27:10,396 Speaker 2: overturned my acquittal, first of all, I didn't even realize 418 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 2: that that was possible because it so goes it goes 419 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 2: against what we assume here in the United States, which 420 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:19,996 Speaker 2: is when you're found innocent, it's just it's done. No, 421 00:27:20,076 --> 00:27:22,436 Speaker 2: it's not like that in Italy, because it's not done 422 00:27:22,516 --> 00:27:26,356 Speaker 2: until the Supreme Court decides it's done. So the prosecution 423 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:33,636 Speaker 2: appealed my acquittal, my acquittal was overturned and they convicted me. 424 00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 2: I was actually sentenced to twenty eight point five years 425 00:27:38,316 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 2: at that conviction. 426 00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: So what was it like then, Amanda to be definitively exonerated? 427 00:27:44,116 --> 00:27:45,196 Speaker 1: What was that day like? 428 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:49,556 Speaker 2: That was astonishing because first of all, I'm here in 429 00:27:49,596 --> 00:27:54,116 Speaker 2: the United States, so I'm like logging on to all 430 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:59,316 Speaker 2: of like the live streaming Italian news channels online to 431 00:27:59,316 --> 00:28:01,436 Speaker 2: see which one is going to be reporting first on 432 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,316 Speaker 2: what the verdict is. And I'm the only one in 433 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 2: my entire family who can speak fluent Italian. So here 434 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 2: we all are crowded round my laptop. Everyone is around me, 435 00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 2: and I hear definitively acquitted. I gasped. I was like 436 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 2: I was shocked, and everyone in my family was like 437 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:22,836 Speaker 2: what what? What was? What? 438 00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 1: What is it? And I was like, it's over. It's over. 439 00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:31,396 Speaker 2: It's over. Oh my god, it is over. And you know, 440 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 2: of course, we're all like squealing and it it was. 441 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:39,716 Speaker 2: It was over. It was. It was astonishing, Like the 442 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 2: feeling of no longer being a prey animal that is 443 00:28:43,636 --> 00:28:48,036 Speaker 2: being hunted down was huge, and suddenly I felt like, 444 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:51,836 Speaker 2: oh my god, I can actually live my life. I 445 00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 2: can't just survive my life. I can live my life 446 00:28:56,156 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 2: and no one is going to freaking stop me. I 447 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 2: am not going to let anyone feel like they can 448 00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:05,596 Speaker 2: stop me from living my life anymore, Like I'm done, 449 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:07,116 Speaker 2: Like I'm done with that. 450 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:10,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting saying that. You say that. I 451 00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:14,596 Speaker 1: wonder if it is that narrative in your mind that 452 00:29:14,716 --> 00:29:17,876 Speaker 1: helps you stave off feelings of resentment, because if you 453 00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:21,156 Speaker 1: are too resentful, then you have let them own a 454 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:22,916 Speaker 1: piece of your future, which is the one thing that 455 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: you can control. I can just so easily imagine getting 456 00:29:27,076 --> 00:29:31,476 Speaker 1: consumed by resentment, because you know, it's one thing for 457 00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: a tragic event to happen in life, just because, like 458 00:29:34,156 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 1: I imagine being struck by lightning, there's no object to 459 00:29:37,996 --> 00:29:42,836 Speaker 1: your anger, right, but here there was malicious human intent 460 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: and they haven't even shown any contrition. 461 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's that's a great question, because I think 462 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:51,516 Speaker 2: a lot of people come away from me thinking that 463 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 2: I don't actually experience anger, and I do, like I 464 00:29:55,076 --> 00:30:00,036 Speaker 2: have moments of like deep deep anger about what happened 465 00:30:00,116 --> 00:30:04,436 Speaker 2: and how it didn't need to happen. But I also 466 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:09,556 Speaker 2: am aware that living four years in a room that 467 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:16,356 Speaker 2: was locked really really showed me that the thing that 468 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,316 Speaker 2: I have control over is my own mind, and that's 469 00:30:19,356 --> 00:30:22,996 Speaker 2: pretty much it. And so if I am going to 470 00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:28,796 Speaker 2: live my life. I need to be mindful of how 471 00:30:28,836 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 2: I'm allowing myself to live it and what sort of 472 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 2: feelings and thoughts I'm indulging in, because I think the 473 00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 2: important thing to remember here is that I allow myself 474 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:42,716 Speaker 2: to feel anger, but I try not to indulge in it. 475 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 2: And that's the difference, because I think that especially when 476 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 2: you feel righteous anger, you feel like you should entrench 477 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 2: yourself in it and like dig deep and like and 478 00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:56,756 Speaker 2: know that pain and feel that and have that be 479 00:30:56,796 --> 00:30:59,196 Speaker 2: the driving force in your life because it is righteous. 480 00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:01,436 Speaker 2: It's coming from a place of like, I deserve to 481 00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:04,956 Speaker 2: be angry. But just because you deserve to be angry 482 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that it's the thing that's going to make 483 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:11,956 Speaker 2: you your best self. And don't I don't want what 484 00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 2: happened to me to turn me into something that is 485 00:31:14,476 --> 00:31:17,356 Speaker 2: not my best self. I want to I want to 486 00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 2: still feel like I'm in control of at least one 487 00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:22,276 Speaker 2: thing in my life, and that's me and how I'm 488 00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:24,756 Speaker 2: reacting to a set of bad circumstances. 489 00:31:26,556 --> 00:31:29,796 Speaker 1: On the one hand, your story is so exceptional and 490 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:34,356 Speaker 1: so extraordinary. On the other there are many themes that 491 00:31:34,436 --> 00:31:38,076 Speaker 1: are so relatable we all have these moments in life 492 00:31:38,116 --> 00:31:42,116 Speaker 1: where we think, oh, man, this person they really misunderstood me. 493 00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:44,916 Speaker 1: If only I could clarify to them what the truth was, 494 00:31:44,956 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 1: like what really happened, or you know what I really mean. 495 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:50,436 Speaker 1: But we don't always get the chance to set the 496 00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:54,436 Speaker 1: record straight. And you know, today there are still swots 497 00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 1: of people out there who think you are guilty of 498 00:31:57,276 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 1: a crime you didn't commit. And I want to know 499 00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:04,956 Speaker 1: how you make peace with that, how you don't allow 500 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 1: yourself to be driven insane by that, Because if you, Amanda, 501 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 1: can come to terms with this, I imagine it could 502 00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 1: give a lot of listeners a lot of hope who 503 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,316 Speaker 1: are dealing with far more quotitian misconceptions. 504 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:20,596 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I appreciate also that you say that, like 505 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:22,636 Speaker 2: there's a lot of things in my experience that is 506 00:32:22,676 --> 00:32:26,276 Speaker 2: really relatable. One because actually, the way that I was 507 00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:29,836 Speaker 2: wrongly convicted is not very different than the way lots 508 00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:32,116 Speaker 2: of people are wrongly convicted. You just don't hear about 509 00:32:32,156 --> 00:32:35,796 Speaker 2: their cases quite as often. But furthermore, I also appreciate 510 00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:38,996 Speaker 2: the fact that you are trying to relate to what 511 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:41,156 Speaker 2: I'm talking about and how I feel like that feeling 512 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:44,876 Speaker 2: of being misrepresented, misunderstood. People finding fault in you are 513 00:32:44,916 --> 00:32:48,916 Speaker 2: stripping you of context given your situation. A lot of 514 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:50,356 Speaker 2: people reach out to me and say, like, how do 515 00:32:50,436 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 2: I deal with the fact that people are calling me 516 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:54,676 Speaker 2: a slut in my high school? Or what do I 517 00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:59,676 Speaker 2: do about how like my reputation is destroyed based upon this, 518 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,676 Speaker 2: like one tweet I did when I was young. And 519 00:33:03,396 --> 00:33:07,596 Speaker 2: one of the things that I find personal peace with 520 00:33:07,836 --> 00:33:10,916 Speaker 2: is just knowing that, like all those people who hate 521 00:33:10,956 --> 00:33:15,476 Speaker 2: me don't actually hate me, Like the person that they 522 00:33:15,516 --> 00:33:19,156 Speaker 2: think they hate doesn't even exist, so it's not me, 523 00:33:19,876 --> 00:33:24,356 Speaker 2: Like they're directing their hate at target that is this 524 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:28,236 Speaker 2: sort of false version of me that doesn't really exist, 525 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:31,276 Speaker 2: and I just happen to be the face and the 526 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:35,396 Speaker 2: name that they associate with this fantasy. However, that doesn't 527 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:37,756 Speaker 2: mean that I don't live with the sort of challenges 528 00:33:37,796 --> 00:33:40,996 Speaker 2: that come with people having preconceived notions of me as 529 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:43,356 Speaker 2: I try to put my work out into the world 530 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:47,276 Speaker 2: or just even you know, exist in public spaces. 531 00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:51,036 Speaker 1: Can you say more about that? How does that manifest? 532 00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:53,556 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I mean I think a lot of people 533 00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:55,476 Speaker 2: think that maybe people come up to me and are like, 534 00:33:55,516 --> 00:33:58,756 Speaker 2: you are guilty but no, it's not how it manifests itself. 535 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 2: It's more like I drive up to the kiosk to 536 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:04,996 Speaker 2: get on a ferry. I give them my credit card. 537 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:07,636 Speaker 2: The person sees my name on the credit card says 538 00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 2: are you that a man to knock? And I go yes, 539 00:34:11,356 --> 00:34:13,636 Speaker 2: and they say, well, I have some questions to you 540 00:34:13,716 --> 00:34:17,756 Speaker 2: about your cartwheels and what you were saying in your interrogation. Meanwhile, 541 00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:19,836 Speaker 2: this is the person who's like holding onto my credit 542 00:34:19,836 --> 00:34:21,956 Speaker 2: card and not giving it back to me until I 543 00:34:21,996 --> 00:34:25,996 Speaker 2: answer their questions for them. So it's that kind of 544 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 2: sense of entitlement that people have to the worst experience 545 00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:32,436 Speaker 2: of my life that at any point that they happen 546 00:34:32,476 --> 00:34:37,676 Speaker 2: to run into me, that continues to be this challenge. 547 00:34:37,716 --> 00:34:41,156 Speaker 2: But again I also understand that here this person is 548 00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:44,436 Speaker 2: who has invested themselves in the case, and this is 549 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:46,236 Speaker 2: like their one moment in their whole life where they 550 00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:48,196 Speaker 2: feel like they're going to get to finally have a 551 00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:50,556 Speaker 2: question answered, and so they think, I can't, you know, 552 00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:55,796 Speaker 2: let this opportunity pass up, but failing to appreciate that, well, 553 00:34:56,356 --> 00:34:58,436 Speaker 2: I'm in the middle of my life and my life 554 00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:03,196 Speaker 2: does not revolve around answering your questions. So it's a 555 00:35:03,276 --> 00:35:04,836 Speaker 2: kind of failure of empathy. 556 00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:09,796 Speaker 1: Aman, I'm struck by the fact that you know on 557 00:35:09,836 --> 00:35:12,716 Speaker 1: this show a slight change of plans. It's so much 558 00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:17,556 Speaker 1: about identity, our self identity, the fragility of our identity, 559 00:35:17,836 --> 00:35:20,916 Speaker 1: who gets to own our identity, how our identities change 560 00:35:20,916 --> 00:35:25,116 Speaker 1: over time? And to me, your story screams of these themes, right, 561 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:28,276 Speaker 1: I mean you might experience that with a much greater intensity, 562 00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:30,316 Speaker 1: which is that your identity in many ways has been 563 00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:32,956 Speaker 1: usurped by lots of actors out in the world. But 564 00:35:33,876 --> 00:35:37,916 Speaker 1: many of us feel that way, like who claims maya right? 565 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:41,356 Speaker 1: Like who gets to define who I am and what 566 00:35:41,436 --> 00:35:42,036 Speaker 1: I've done? 567 00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:48,796 Speaker 2: So definitely, my ongoing curse is continuing to be defined 568 00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:53,036 Speaker 2: in the greater you know, human awareness by a crime 569 00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:55,396 Speaker 2: that I didn't commit, as opposed to all of the 570 00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:58,276 Speaker 2: things that I have done. Like the vast majority of 571 00:35:58,276 --> 00:36:03,196 Speaker 2: people when they think Amanda Knox, they don't think of podcaster, journalist, writer, 572 00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:07,676 Speaker 2: They think girl who was accused of murder at best right, 573 00:36:08,276 --> 00:36:15,356 Speaker 2: And my challenge has always been, well, first of all, 574 00:36:15,556 --> 00:36:18,956 Speaker 2: how important is it to me for me to define 575 00:36:19,436 --> 00:36:25,036 Speaker 2: my own narrative and legacy? Is that necessary for me 576 00:36:25,276 --> 00:36:28,996 Speaker 2: to live the life like to live a happy life. 577 00:36:29,076 --> 00:36:34,476 Speaker 2: And you know, ultimately it's not necessary, right, Like, I 578 00:36:34,516 --> 00:36:37,676 Speaker 2: don't have to convince everyone in the world that I'm 579 00:36:37,676 --> 00:36:41,316 Speaker 2: innocent in order to live a fulfilled life, because ultimately 580 00:36:41,356 --> 00:36:43,796 Speaker 2: living a fulfilled life is on me, right. 581 00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:44,756 Speaker 1: Yeah. 582 00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:48,636 Speaker 2: However, one of the more traumatic experiences someone can have 583 00:36:49,356 --> 00:36:54,636 Speaker 2: is to not be allowed to define what their experiences 584 00:36:54,796 --> 00:36:58,116 Speaker 2: mean to them. So not only like what their experience was, 585 00:36:58,156 --> 00:37:02,036 Speaker 2: but what it means to them. And so doing constant 586 00:37:02,196 --> 00:37:06,436 Speaker 2: processing work to define for myself what it means to 587 00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:10,996 Speaker 2: me is valuable to me and also in turn valuable 588 00:37:10,996 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 2: to others who are trying to find their own meaning 589 00:37:13,356 --> 00:37:16,396 Speaker 2: to their experiences. Because there is no inherent meaning to 590 00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:18,876 Speaker 2: any of our suffering, we have to make sense of 591 00:37:18,916 --> 00:37:21,276 Speaker 2: it and we have to define what it means, like 592 00:37:21,316 --> 00:37:24,556 Speaker 2: how big of a role it is in our life. So, 593 00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:28,476 Speaker 2: you know, everything leading up to everything that happened in Italy, 594 00:37:28,556 --> 00:37:31,676 Speaker 2: I lived very charmed but naive life. I was, you know, 595 00:37:31,836 --> 00:37:35,756 Speaker 2: very sheltered, and you know, had a very limited perspective 596 00:37:35,796 --> 00:37:37,916 Speaker 2: on things. I thought that only bad people went to 597 00:37:37,956 --> 00:37:41,316 Speaker 2: prison and that I never had to think about those issues. 598 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 2: But I also think, wow, you know, would be would 599 00:37:45,916 --> 00:37:47,836 Speaker 2: I be a good you know, would I be a 600 00:37:47,836 --> 00:37:51,156 Speaker 2: good person if I hadn't gone through something so terrible 601 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:53,396 Speaker 2: because nothing bad had ever happened to me up to 602 00:37:53,436 --> 00:37:56,116 Speaker 2: that point, and I sort of took for granted that 603 00:37:56,556 --> 00:37:59,036 Speaker 2: I would just be able to have the life that 604 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:01,276 Speaker 2: I wanted in a family and a career without you know, 605 00:38:01,316 --> 00:38:04,636 Speaker 2: any problems. Today, I feel like I have in a 606 00:38:04,716 --> 00:38:09,996 Speaker 2: perspective that I having lived kind of with the lowest 607 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:15,876 Speaker 2: possible hopes and then being able to take that perspective 608 00:38:16,236 --> 00:38:19,636 Speaker 2: and try to give voice to an experience that doesn't 609 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:24,836 Speaker 2: often have a voice, and try to make those connections 610 00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:30,036 Speaker 2: between other people suffering and overwhelming experiences and others, because 611 00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:33,516 Speaker 2: I think there is this false idea that people can't 612 00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:36,116 Speaker 2: relate to each other if they don't have the same experiences. 613 00:38:36,156 --> 00:38:38,836 Speaker 2: And it's like, no, we can. We can do that 614 00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,956 Speaker 2: empathy work. We can understand how the mind works when 615 00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:45,276 Speaker 2: it reacts to traumatic experiences. We can share that with 616 00:38:45,316 --> 00:38:48,156 Speaker 2: each other, and we only get better for it. I 617 00:38:48,236 --> 00:38:53,356 Speaker 2: feel like weirdly better for that experience, even if I 618 00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 2: would never wish it upon my worst enemy. 619 00:38:56,356 --> 00:39:00,516 Speaker 1: That's profound. I mean, yeah, look, I think again. Maybe 620 00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 1: this is just the part of my mind that studies 621 00:39:03,396 --> 00:39:06,156 Speaker 1: human behavior for a living, But I feel like there 622 00:39:06,156 --> 00:39:09,596 Speaker 1: are so many common threads in psychology that absolutely transcend 623 00:39:09,676 --> 00:39:12,356 Speaker 1: the specifics of an experience. In fact, that's one of 624 00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:14,796 Speaker 1: the reasons I built this show is to show that, 625 00:39:14,876 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 1: you know, the cancer patient in the throes of a 626 00:39:17,516 --> 00:39:19,956 Speaker 1: stage four diagnosis might have more in common with you 627 00:39:19,996 --> 00:39:23,916 Speaker 1: when it comes to psychology than someone who had experience 628 00:39:23,956 --> 00:39:26,876 Speaker 1: that in terms of content rivaled yours, right, And so 629 00:39:26,956 --> 00:39:30,196 Speaker 1: it is all about finding those commonalities. Yeah, I know 630 00:39:30,276 --> 00:39:33,076 Speaker 1: that in present day you're actively involved in something called 631 00:39:33,076 --> 00:39:37,236 Speaker 1: the Innocence Network, which supports the wrongfully incarcerated, and that 632 00:39:37,276 --> 00:39:41,116 Speaker 1: you have been warmly welcomed into their family. Yeah. 633 00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:44,236 Speaker 2: So when I came home, one of the things when 634 00:39:44,236 --> 00:39:45,916 Speaker 2: I came home from Italy, one of the things that 635 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,596 Speaker 2: I had sort of resigned myself to was this idea 636 00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:52,516 Speaker 2: that I was very alone in my experience and I 637 00:39:52,596 --> 00:39:56,596 Speaker 2: was isolating. I was isolating in a big way, and 638 00:39:56,676 --> 00:39:59,356 Speaker 2: my mom was worried about me. She was really worried 639 00:39:59,396 --> 00:40:02,836 Speaker 2: about me. I kept doing prison things like washing my 640 00:40:02,916 --> 00:40:06,316 Speaker 2: underwear and the sink and generally just kind of being 641 00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:10,076 Speaker 2: a loner, and she was reached out to by the 642 00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:13,476 Speaker 2: director of the Idaho Innocence Project, who said, Hey, just 643 00:40:13,516 --> 00:40:17,116 Speaker 2: so you know, there's this whole world of people who 644 00:40:17,316 --> 00:40:20,436 Speaker 2: work to overturn wrongful convictions here in the United States 645 00:40:20,556 --> 00:40:23,636 Speaker 2: based off the Innocence Project. We all get together once 646 00:40:23,676 --> 00:40:26,636 Speaker 2: a year at this conference. You need to bring Amanda. 647 00:40:27,276 --> 00:40:29,396 Speaker 2: And of course my mom brings this to me. And 648 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:31,396 Speaker 2: the last thing that I want to do in the 649 00:40:31,436 --> 00:40:33,916 Speaker 2: world is walk into a room full of hundreds of 650 00:40:33,956 --> 00:40:36,756 Speaker 2: strangers who are going to recognize me, like that is 651 00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:41,996 Speaker 2: my worst nightmare scenario. And I was still actually convicted 652 00:40:42,036 --> 00:40:45,276 Speaker 2: at the time. I had just been reconvicted, and I 653 00:40:45,356 --> 00:40:48,196 Speaker 2: was doing all those like facing extradition, what if I 654 00:40:48,236 --> 00:40:50,516 Speaker 2: have to turn myself in kind of things. That's the 655 00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:53,476 Speaker 2: world I was living in when I walked into that 656 00:40:53,676 --> 00:40:57,796 Speaker 2: basement conference room with the bad lighting and the bad 657 00:40:58,076 --> 00:41:03,516 Speaker 2: carpet in Portland, Oregon, and I walked into a room. 658 00:41:03,916 --> 00:41:06,476 Speaker 2: My mom sort of pushed me into the room, and 659 00:41:06,516 --> 00:41:10,676 Speaker 2: these two guys immediately ran up to me and hugged 660 00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:14,116 Speaker 2: me and said, you don't have to explain a thing, 661 00:41:14,396 --> 00:41:19,356 Speaker 2: little sister. We know and it's like they knew they 662 00:41:19,436 --> 00:41:22,996 Speaker 2: knew what I was most scared of walking into that room, 663 00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:25,276 Speaker 2: that I was going to be recognized and have to 664 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:30,036 Speaker 2: explain myself and be judged. And I was introduced to 665 00:41:30,716 --> 00:41:34,396 Speaker 2: not just a community, but a family of people who 666 00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:40,436 Speaker 2: understood and cared even though they didn't know me. And 667 00:41:40,956 --> 00:41:43,796 Speaker 2: what they did for me, and that moment, these two 668 00:41:43,796 --> 00:41:45,876 Speaker 2: men who had each spent over a decade in prison 669 00:41:45,876 --> 00:41:48,756 Speaker 2: for crimes they didn't commit, I could probably do for 670 00:41:48,836 --> 00:41:52,356 Speaker 2: someone else too. And that world has introduced me to 671 00:41:52,396 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 2: some amazing people doing amazing work, and I try to 672 00:41:55,556 --> 00:41:58,676 Speaker 2: bring light to that work and shed light on people's 673 00:41:59,476 --> 00:42:03,356 Speaker 2: cases and the issues that get people wrongly convicted. Those 674 00:42:03,356 --> 00:42:08,396 Speaker 2: are all things that we all can totally understand and 675 00:42:08,596 --> 00:42:12,756 Speaker 2: totally fix. It is absolutely within our power and is 676 00:42:12,836 --> 00:42:14,916 Speaker 2: so worth it. 677 00:42:34,556 --> 00:42:37,236 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 678 00:42:37,316 --> 00:42:40,316 Speaker 1: conversation with Amanda Knox, i'd recommend you check out another 679 00:42:40,356 --> 00:42:43,796 Speaker 1: conversation I had with Betty Bogombe. In an effort to 680 00:42:43,796 --> 00:42:46,436 Speaker 1: bring an end to violence in Northern Uganda in nineteen 681 00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:50,276 Speaker 1: ninety three, Betty decided to engage directly with the notorious 682 00:42:50,356 --> 00:42:55,596 Speaker 1: warlord Joseph Coney. Her unwavering dedication to finding peace and 683 00:42:55,676 --> 00:42:59,036 Speaker 1: fighting for her values is inspiring. We'll link to that 684 00:42:59,116 --> 00:43:11,596 Speaker 1: episode in the show notes. A Slight Change of Plans 685 00:43:11,676 --> 00:43:14,916 Speaker 1: is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. 686 00:43:15,516 --> 00:43:19,156 Speaker 1: The Slight Change family includes Tyler Green our senior producer, 687 00:43:19,556 --> 00:43:23,596 Speaker 1: Jen Guerra, our senior editor, Ben Talladay, our sound engineer, 688 00:43:23,956 --> 00:43:28,676 Speaker 1: Emily Rosstek our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle our executive producer. 689 00:43:29,476 --> 00:43:32,476 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith helped 690 00:43:32,556 --> 00:43:35,476 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 691 00:43:35,516 --> 00:43:39,236 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there, 692 00:43:39,636 --> 00:43:44,036 Speaker 1: including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee tal Malade, and Heather Fame, 693 00:43:44,636 --> 00:43:48,876 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 694 00:43:49,076 --> 00:43:51,636 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 695 00:43:51,676 --> 00:43:54,476 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week. 696 00:43:58,556 --> 00:44:01,796 Speaker 2: I have to be mindful about what songs I sing 697 00:44:01,916 --> 00:44:06,396 Speaker 2: at karaoke, Like if any song has like a hint 698 00:44:06,436 --> 00:44:08,476 Speaker 2: of like a fem fatal kind of character in it, 699 00:44:08,556 --> 00:44:11,316 Speaker 2: like people are going to read into that right like 700 00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:14,756 Speaker 2: or you know, if I like I dress up in 701 00:44:14,796 --> 00:44:18,996 Speaker 2: a costume for Halloween and I post it to Instagram, 702 00:44:19,516 --> 00:44:22,916 Speaker 2: and I you know, people read into that and say, oh, 703 00:44:22,916 --> 00:44:25,876 Speaker 2: look what again, What a weird character she is. She's 704 00:44:25,916 --> 00:44:28,316 Speaker 2: wearing a costume, and it's like, well, or I'm just 705 00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:30,076 Speaker 2: a regular person wearing a costume.