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Speaker 1: sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand.
Speaker 1: You never know stories of things we simply don't know
Speaker 1: the answer to. Hie there, Welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve. This
Speaker 1: week we're gonna be talking about the disappearance of Devon.
Speaker 1: What happened to Devon from Thinking Sideways. She was supposed
Speaker 1: to be at the recording studios at seven pm. It's
Speaker 1: seven oh five and she's not here, alright? Theories she
Speaker 1: ran away and starting new life. Can you get that? Yeah? Sorry, guys, Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Okay, sorry, okay, okay. Hey, Well, time to
Speaker 1: find a new mystery. Hang on a second while you
Speaker 1: go to the Google. Uh, please enjoy this really RESTful
Speaker 1: elevator music. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe, joined as always by and Yeah. This week
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a few mysteries surrounding Queen Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: the First of England. Some of you guys may have
Speaker 1: heard of her once or twice. Yeah, I guess. And
Speaker 1: these are a couple of different mysteries that have been
Speaker 1: suggested to us by so many people that I'm not
Speaker 1: going to give you guys a shout out. It's to
Speaker 1: say thanks for the suggestions. Well, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: mysteries around her. There are some mysteries around here. One
Speaker 1: of the first mysteries that she was involved in was
Speaker 1: the misplaced colony of Roanoke. Also that as a colony,
Speaker 1: we can't seem to put our hands on it. The
Speaker 1: moment calling me of nothing to see here, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: please move along, yeah yeah, don't mind the alien burn
Speaker 1: marks stuff. Yeah, but she was involved in that because
Speaker 1: she wanted to get England a tohede in the New World.
Speaker 1: All the Europeans were doing that. It was it was
Speaker 1: all the rage back in those days. Yeah, she granted
Speaker 1: a charter to Sir Walter Rawleigh. So you found a
Speaker 1: settlement in what would become Virginia, which is named after
Speaker 1: Elizabeth because she was the Virgin Queen. Yeah yeah, nick yeah,
Speaker 1: good Queen Bass. And next she had one or two
Speaker 1: other nicknames, a lot of them. Yeah, she did and
Speaker 1: here's but another mystery about her is people have been
Speaker 1: wondering for a long long time they still are today,
Speaker 1: is did she ever have a child? And it is
Speaker 1: one of them. That's a that's a big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna jump in here real quick and
Speaker 1: say that historic mysteries like this it will probably not
Speaker 1: surprise any of our listeners bother me a little bit.
Speaker 1: I am not super stoked in the idea of the
Speaker 1: public fascination of was this woman of virgin Was she not?
Speaker 1: Did she have a child? Did she not? Though I
Speaker 1: understand in this one circumstance that it is of historic
Speaker 1: significance and totally worth an episode. So if I seem
Speaker 1: a little cranky, that's why. Sorry God, Yeah, well the
Speaker 1: is it so box away? Yeah? By yeah, I expect
Speaker 1: a little crankiness there, um, but you know it is.
Speaker 1: It is kind of something to ponder because she said
Speaker 1: she was she said she was going to remain unmarried
Speaker 1: in Virgin and YadA, YadA, YadA. But you may big
Speaker 1: deal out of it. Yeah. The royal courts back in
Speaker 1: those days were kind of libidinous places. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot of hanky packing going on.
Speaker 1: Pull that one on. Yeah, I gotta be honest with
Speaker 1: the stuff that I've read about the things that went
Speaker 1: on in court and all of the political dealings. I
Speaker 1: know I've probably said this before and I'll probably say
Speaker 1: it again. I don't even understand how the royalty managed
Speaker 1: to exist with all of the games they were. But
Speaker 1: then again, I don't understand how the political system in
Speaker 1: our own country, which is pretty similar, has managed to
Speaker 1: get along as long as it has. Yeah. So luckily,
Speaker 1: the mystery that we're talking about is did Elizabeth have
Speaker 1: a kid? Not? Was she a virgin, which is one
Speaker 1: that people have suggested and I have outright refused every
Speaker 1: single time because I just I don't care to talk
Speaker 1: about that. But we are going to talk about today, right,
Speaker 1: did she have whether she had a kid? So let's
Speaker 1: get to it. Let's solve this. Yeah, but before I
Speaker 1: get into the mystery thing, I think I should give
Speaker 1: everybody a little background on Elizabeth the first Yeah, in
Speaker 1: case you haven't heard of her. Yeah, that's a little
Speaker 1: history lesson here. It'll be brief. Don't worry, don't go away. Well,
Speaker 1: I watched the Tutors, so I know all this Okay,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was born the same thrones, right yeah, real history,
Speaker 1: the documentary with real dragons. Yeah. Well, I mean England
Speaker 1: always had that giant ice wall, right yeah, okay, sweet,
Speaker 1: go ahead you okay. So she was born fifty three,
Speaker 1: the daughter of Henry the Eighth and Anne Bolan, who
Speaker 1: was his second wife and radiate. Um. Yeah, and that's sure.
Speaker 1: You guys have all heard of Henry the eighth and
Speaker 1: the sixth wife. But if you have, and here's a
Speaker 1: quick rundown. Henry was a second monarch in the Tutor line,
Speaker 1: and his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, had a daughter
Speaker 1: who would later become Queen Mary the First. And then
Speaker 1: Henry got impatient with Catherine because she had actually six children,
Speaker 1: but only one of them survived. Three of them were
Speaker 1: still born, and two of them died shortly after childbirth,
Speaker 1: and so he she hadn't given him a son, and
Speaker 1: he really really strangely valued it was very much of
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. Uh. So he decided to move on
Speaker 1: and so you found found this new girl in boleyn
Speaker 1: uh and married her. There's one hit. So he needed
Speaker 1: to persuade the pope to annul his marriage to Katherine
Speaker 1: and the boat said no, understandably that the church does
Speaker 1: not condone, does not condone divorce. Yeah, they're a little
Speaker 1: more lenient on these days, but at that time they
Speaker 1: were like, nah, yeah, it was seriously, seriously, I just
Speaker 1: I love the fact that the Church of England was
Speaker 1: created because the king was like, you know what, I
Speaker 1: don't really like my wife anymore. That's the whole reason
Speaker 1: for it. I really want to bang this more attractive,
Speaker 1: younger chick. I mean, I Steve his like laugh, He's
Speaker 1: like about following his chair right here. But no, I mean,
Speaker 1: like that's That's basically what Henry said was I'm not
Speaker 1: interested in my wife anymore. I'm interested in someone else. Now.
Speaker 1: He created an entire new church and religion basically because
Speaker 1: he wanted to do something else. There's been quite a
Speaker 1: few figures in history who have done very similar things.
Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty interesting. Anyway, that's the story. After
Speaker 1: marrying Anne Boleyn, she gave birth to Elizabeth, and then
Speaker 1: two and a half years after Elizabeth was born, apparently
Speaker 1: Henry was getting a little tired, was ready to move
Speaker 1: on again. He wanted somebody younger. Yeah, or maybe Anne
Speaker 1: was just too naggy or something, but yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, Henry accuser of adultery and had her
Speaker 1: put to death. Another character I should mention here is
Speaker 1: Kat Ashley. Catherine Ashley. She was appointed as Elizabeth Governess
Speaker 1: when she was four years old, and that's Elizabeth Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: and that was that was a prestigious title, right, like
Speaker 1: we should be clear it was not just of a princess. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a serious thing. I mean yeah, And she was
Speaker 1: well educated, Cat, that was. And she taught to Elizabeth astronomy, geography, history, mathematics, French, Italian, Spanish, Flemish.
Speaker 1: I was I was actually really surprised when I was
Speaker 1: reading that. I never realized that Elizabeth the First had
Speaker 1: such a knack for languages. She evidently was really really
Speaker 1: good at it, which I don't know why they caught
Speaker 1: me so off guard. But when you start learning languages
Speaker 1: at form, that's a very good point. That makes a
Speaker 1: big difference. I think. Yeah, you know, I know I've
Speaker 1: mentioned this before, but I have a fair number of
Speaker 1: friends who are very fluent in multiple languages, and all
Speaker 1: of them, even if they started learning the languages that
Speaker 1: they're now fluent in, later in life. They all ended
Speaker 1: they all had bilingual parents basically, so they were raised
Speaker 1: with that knack, and I think it's something that a
Speaker 1: lot of kids learn early on. So yeah, if she
Speaker 1: started learning other languages at four, she was gonna be
Speaker 1: good at him. Yeah, Elizabeth was pretty smart. Yeah, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: really smart. Cat was important, Yeah, was very important. Well,
Speaker 1: the person who raises Yeah, she was essentially her mother
Speaker 1: absolutely because as you know, Henry, well, her stepmothers came
Speaker 1: and went. It was friendly rapidly, quite a few, it
Speaker 1: turns out. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean but frankly, even
Speaker 1: if you know stepmothers managed to stay for even ten
Speaker 1: fifteen years, it doesn't really matter because the queen at
Speaker 1: that time isn't nobility, isn't really that involved in raising
Speaker 1: their kid. That's just how it was then, not really
Speaker 1: that much. Yeah, so anyway, but the reason I brought
Speaker 1: up Cat is just that she plays a role in
Speaker 1: some of these stories. She does. Yeah, back to Henry
Speaker 1: the Eighth for a little bit. His next wife, Jane Seemer,
Speaker 1: finally produced a male heir, Edward, who became King Edward
Speaker 1: the six After Henry died he was nine. He immediately
Speaker 1: decreed that all candy in England belonged to him. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: even now maybe I might be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: English candies pretty good? Yeah, yeah, they do it pretty well.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for Edward, he only ruled until he was sixteen,
Speaker 1: when he died diabetes. Did you know, I don't remember
Speaker 1: he did not decree that all candy was no. Actually
Speaker 1: he didn't know he was. He was always very sickly,
Speaker 1: and he was very He had something with his lungs.
Speaker 1: He was like pneumonia. He seemed to take on things
Speaker 1: like that or get that, all the time he had
Speaker 1: breathing issues. He had a lot of fluid in his
Speaker 1: lungs because I remember he got sick and it was
Speaker 1: winter time, and then he started getting better, and then
Speaker 1: he started getting ill again in the summer when it
Speaker 1: should have been warm and his lungs should have dried out.
Speaker 1: And I don't you know, it may be determined at
Speaker 1: this point exactly what what it was that sunder Trump,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember what it was, but I know
Speaker 1: it was basically pneumonia. Probably either that or his half
Speaker 1: sister Mary poisoned him well, because well, I guess who
Speaker 1: got to I guess who got the throne? Next Mary,
Speaker 1: Mary the First. Yeah, not not Mary Queen, well not directly,
Speaker 1: not immediately. Yeah, there was a little interim period of
Speaker 1: nine days. Yeah, yeah, there was a little intra period.
Speaker 1: There was some contention. Uh well, first of all, there's
Speaker 1: a little contention about Mary the First, whether she was
Speaker 1: legitimate or not because the marriage had been annulled to
Speaker 1: her mother and all that stuff. But it was eventually
Speaker 1: it was all sorted out and Mary got the got
Speaker 1: the throne in fifteen fifty three and she ruled for
Speaker 1: five years until fifteen fifty eight what she died. And
Speaker 1: during this time there were some plots against Mary that
Speaker 1: Mary and I have involved Elizabeth. I know that these
Speaker 1: plots that wanted to topple her and put Elizabeth on
Speaker 1: the throne. But whether Elizabeth Elizabeth actually participated in these
Speaker 1: it's kind of an open question. And thought that Mary
Speaker 1: wasn't popular, Now, Mary wasn't that nobody seemed to have
Speaker 1: really liked her. Yeah, And Elizabeth was younger and prettier,
Speaker 1: and people just seemed to like her better. You know,
Speaker 1: it's I mean, you know, frankly, it did seem that
Speaker 1: people didn't like Mary's mother very much. The people seemed
Speaker 1: to kind of like in at least in my reading.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm not British, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but definitely not fully versed in this this time frame. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it seems to me that people like Anne Boleyn
Speaker 1: was like the people's wife, people's choice, you know, people
Speaker 1: really liked her for whatever reason or not. Yeah, kind of,
Speaker 1: and so they liked Elizabeth more than they really liked
Speaker 1: any of the other kids. That's what it seemed like
Speaker 1: to me, at least that's fair. Back to the back
Speaker 1: to the plots against Mary, Elizabeth spent some time in
Speaker 1: the Tower of London, I think around a year, and
Speaker 1: there was actually a question at the time of whether
Speaker 1: she might get executed or not for her maybe participation
Speaker 1: in these plots. But against I said, there really wasn't
Speaker 1: much evidence that he was actually involved in any of them.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking I think Mary probably was reluctant to
Speaker 1: execute Elizabeth because it had actually been kind of close
Speaker 1: in childhood. You know, they were only half sisters. They
Speaker 1: there was kind of a schism between and when she
Speaker 1: went to the throne, but things they sort of got
Speaker 1: like colder towards one another. Yeah, Well, I mean they
Speaker 1: were sisters, and yeah, you know, half sisters or sisters.
Speaker 1: They were raised together. How old were they at that
Speaker 1: point too? I mean Mary was quite a bit older
Speaker 1: than she was, Like it was seven years old, at
Speaker 1: least seven years old, okay, maybe maybe ten years. But
Speaker 1: how old was Elizabeth? She wasn't not much older? Was
Speaker 1: she very younger? You mean, I'm sorry then, um than Edward? Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was. I think about the time that Mary took
Speaker 1: the son, I think Elizabeth was nineteen or twenty yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, not that much older, maybe five four
Speaker 1: or five years at the most. Yeah, okay, okay, one
Speaker 1: last little bit of history. Um, the one Elizabeth ascended
Speaker 1: to the throne, many English Catholics didn't accept her as legitimate,
Speaker 1: right because Henry is married to Anne, was illegitimate in
Speaker 1: their eyes, and so she had been a bastard she was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was a bastard and therefore was not a legitimate
Speaker 1: heir to the throne. And this time it's believed and
Speaker 1: Henry the eighth that actually had numerous flame was an
Speaker 1: affairs and that he actually had he actually had male children.
Speaker 1: He did, but they couldn't take the throne right because
Speaker 1: they were all legitimate. Yeah, he seemed to really hold
Speaker 1: to the standard of I can only bring into the
Speaker 1: fold and give power to the ones who were officially
Speaker 1: recognized by marriage. Like it was. He knew everybody knew
Speaker 1: that he had these kids. It wasn't a secret, but
Speaker 1: he was the Robert Barathian of But he did not
Speaker 1: try to also force them in and say I have
Speaker 1: a boy, this is my boy, this is going to
Speaker 1: be the king. Except the boy he's a king. Like
Speaker 1: he didn't do that at all. The tenants were in place,
Speaker 1: even Henry. Henry pushed the rules and he redefined them
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but he knew that was
Speaker 1: only so far he could go yeah, yeah, and they
Speaker 1: think it's hard to say. You know, oh, I um
Speaker 1: slept with this woman who sleeps with a lot of
Speaker 1: people one time. Now she suddenly has a son and
Speaker 1: he's totally going to be the next king of England.
Speaker 1: You're welcome, everyone. I have no way to know if
Speaker 1: he's actually my sun or not. That's another good point.
Speaker 1: You want to make absolutely sure he actually is your son. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which although with easy at that time. Yeah, yeah, back
Speaker 1: to Elizabeth, you guys totally are but uh you mentioned Mary,
Speaker 1: Queen of Scott's. Mary Queen of Scott's felt that she
Speaker 1: did have a better claim to the throne in Elizabeth
Speaker 1: because it was legitimate though distant, yeah, more distant relation
Speaker 1: to Henry the eighth, but you know, all legitimate and everything.
Speaker 1: But she never got any traction on that claim, and
Speaker 1: eventually she was overthrown in Scotland and wind up taking
Speaker 1: refuge in England through yourself on Elizabeth Elizabeth's mercy, and
Speaker 1: but I couldn't refrain from mucking around in a few
Speaker 1: little plots against Elizabeth, and so in February seven, Elizabeth
Speaker 1: had her beheaded. Yeah, yeah, although she said at the
Speaker 1: time that she didn't really mean for her to be beheaded. Yeah. OK,
Speaker 1: explain how did this go to? She had signed Mary's
Speaker 1: death warrant, but she told her se Terry not to
Speaker 1: send it off. But apparently certain other important persons uh
Speaker 1: either misunderstood the meeting at least one were in it
Speaker 1: or or I think actually what happened is that it
Speaker 1: was like the Privy Council was called, you know, without
Speaker 1: Elizabeth knowing about it, and they decided to well, we've
Speaker 1: got the death warrant, let's carry it out, and they did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was upset about that, or at least she pretended
Speaker 1: to be. There's some thought some people think that perhaps
Speaker 1: she wasn't upset about it at all, that she actually
Speaker 1: was the reason that had happened, and that she just
Speaker 1: wanted a little plausible deniability. Yeah. Well, I mean Mary
Speaker 1: would have been a serious threat to have fun, and
Speaker 1: Mary was quite popular with a lot of some people.
Speaker 1: She was. But at the same time, I think Elizabeth
Speaker 1: did not want even though she wanted Mary out of
Speaker 1: the way permanently, she didn't like the idea of killing royalties.
Speaker 1: She wasn't. I think she just wasn't. Really, she wasn't
Speaker 1: a killer at her I mean, though, well, she had
Speaker 1: a number of people put to death, she did, but
Speaker 1: she was not afraid. I don't have the sense that
Speaker 1: she necessarily was in cold blood, you know, thinking, Wow,
Speaker 1: this person might vaguely want to kill me, so I'm
Speaker 1: going to have it thout. You know. That doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like that, not at all. Briefly, this is like one
Speaker 1: of my favorite little period bubbles periods of time, this
Speaker 1: whole you know, nobility in this era, the Elizabeth not
Speaker 1: the Elizabethan area as a whole. I mean, yes, that
Speaker 1: is very interesting to me from a costume designer perspective
Speaker 1: because it's interesting clothes, but just like the whole little
Speaker 1: bubble of nobility in this time is like very fascinating
Speaker 1: to me. So I'm sorry because I know I'm the
Speaker 1: person who keeps taking a soft track. So we're not
Speaker 1: even close to getting into the mystery. But maybe Joe
Speaker 1: will be able to do that now that I've apologized
Speaker 1: for being the person. I'm sorry. Guys, Scheming and all
Speaker 1: that stuff is kind of it is kind of fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's just so interesting. I don't know. I have a
Speaker 1: hard time keeping everyone because there's always a bazillion player
Speaker 1: is in these stories and it's always confusing to me,
Speaker 1: and they always have the same names. Thank you, right.
Speaker 1: But the other thing that I always cracks me up
Speaker 1: about this period is everybody romanticizes it and goes on
Speaker 1: and on and how wonderful it must have been, and
Speaker 1: I'm always like, are you kidding me? They painted their
Speaker 1: faces with lead paint. I don't want to look in
Speaker 1: the streets. I don't want to live Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: want to live there. We live in a gilded age now,
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry. When you're in a castle where there's
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of vermin running around and the
Speaker 1: only reason you don't see it is because the maids
Speaker 1: are sweeping up their droppings every morning, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: spread a bunch of diseases. It's not a time to
Speaker 1: just be hanging out life then, even yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: just even for nobility. You know, really poor people in
Speaker 1: America today there are just so much better off materially
Speaker 1: speaking than royalty was back in those days. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean nobility almost you know, had it almost works
Speaker 1: off again because you know, it was that whole we
Speaker 1: got to paint our faces white and it was lead paint,
Speaker 1: and we've got to do all these things to make
Speaker 1: ourselves look rich, and they're just poisoning their bodies and horrible.
Speaker 1: But it's still very fascinating to me. Again, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: we're super off track again. We are, let keep going, okay,
Speaker 1: speaking about the scheming and everything like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is just the British royal family. But imagine what
Speaker 1: it would be like to be a member of the
Speaker 1: Saudi Royal family. Yeah, my god, insane? Right, what about
Speaker 1: what about like, um, what about getting his calling even.
Speaker 1: I mean, like there's like a chance that any human
Speaker 1: being has his d n A right, anyone, let's talk
Speaker 1: about that, anyone who's descended from mainland China. I think
Speaker 1: it's it's insane, it's an insane amount. Yeah, he populated that.
Speaker 1: Yeah he was even. Yeah, Well, now that we've just
Speaker 1: talked about all kinds of naughty business, let's talk about
Speaker 1: a virgin queen. Let's talk about her. The mystery is
Speaker 1: did you have a did you have a kid? Elizabeth
Speaker 1: was never married, and there's been a lot of speculation
Speaker 1: about why. And I'm not so surprised personally because her
Speaker 1: mother and her stepmother, Katherine Howard, were both be headed
Speaker 1: by Henry the Eighth. Yeah, I did not have great
Speaker 1: stereotype sterriage, did not idyllic idyllic marriage, just didn't have
Speaker 1: really good prototypes for marriage. It was yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: she just what she saw of marriage was just wasn't good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Her friend Robert Dudley, who will be talking about a
Speaker 1: little bit, they knew each other since the age of eight,
Speaker 1: and they were very close all throughout their lives. He
Speaker 1: said that much later that after the execution of Katherine
Speaker 1: Katherine Howard did is Elizabeth told him that she would
Speaker 1: never marry, and you see what she might be a
Speaker 1: little cynical about the whole marriage thing. But plus also
Speaker 1: marriage meant having kids, which was dangerous back in those days.
Speaker 1: As I said, Catherine of Aragon had six kids, three
Speaker 1: of whom were still born and two who died right
Speaker 1: after birth. And that's a lot and that was not
Speaker 1: uncommon at all. That that's a lot of suffering to
Speaker 1: go through for no results. It really is. And there's
Speaker 1: I mean, that sounds crass. I understand what you're getting at.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't sound I mean, it's it's a
Speaker 1: reality of well, but it sounds harsh, but you're right,
Speaker 1: it is a reality absolutely. I mean, the chances of
Speaker 1: you dying in childbirth at that time is insane. Not
Speaker 1: only you know, to give birth to a stillborn child
Speaker 1: or a child who dies shortly after that, the fact
Speaker 1: that you might die in childbirth was extremely high. I
Speaker 1: also wonder if maybe there was a bit of um.
Speaker 1: She was queen, she was ruling a country, but you know,
Speaker 1: typically nobility was men. So I almost wonder if you know,
Speaker 1: she thought if I marry someone, they will suddenly be
Speaker 1: in charge. It's very true. So that could have been
Speaker 1: part of it as well. And I know she didn't
Speaker 1: want to share power there. I mean there's a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons, right, yeah. And another reason was that she
Speaker 1: had potential suitors amund the Royalty of Europe, one of
Speaker 1: which as King Philip of Spain, which was Spain at
Speaker 1: that time, was a lot more powerful than Britain, and
Speaker 1: it was it was thought that Philip might stage at
Speaker 1: hostile takeover, meaning like an invasion, and eventually eventually the
Speaker 1: Spanish did remember the Spanish Armata, Yeah, well, yeah, they
Speaker 1: were always they were all at war with each other constantly. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And so but she kind of wanted to keep it
Speaker 1: ambiguous with Philip, you know, like maybe she was because
Speaker 1: he was interested in marrying she was keeping yeah, she was, yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, and so she was just sort of keeping
Speaker 1: him put off because he was thinking, hey, if I'm
Speaker 1: marry Elizabeth, England's mind without having to fire a shot,
Speaker 1: and I got ninety nine problems for England eight one,
Speaker 1: you guess. So, so Elizabeth was actually able to forestall
Speaker 1: war by doing this, by not marrying. Yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: she did it for the good of England. Yeah she was, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Of course, of course, eventually Philip did get tired of waiting,
Speaker 1: a war did break out, and there was that whole
Speaker 1: defeat of the Spanish Armata, which was one of Elizabeth
Speaker 1: smell spectacular successes. Of course, some bad weather played a
Speaker 1: big part in that too. Yeah. So, so a lot
Speaker 1: of the question about a lot of people think, wow,
Speaker 1: it's so mysterious she didn't marry and that figures into
Speaker 1: some other mysteries too, by the way, which we'll be
Speaker 1: talking about. But it's possible, it's understandable, okay. So okay,
Speaker 1: so our mystery is did she have a child? So
Speaker 1: how are we going to approach this? What's what's what? What?
Speaker 1: Or how do you want to organize this? Joe, Well,
Speaker 1: I thought what I would do is I would list
Speaker 1: the list some of the guys that it's rumored that
Speaker 1: she had babies with a baby, at least at least
Speaker 1: one baby with yeah, and there are several candidates for that,
Speaker 1: and then we'll just talk about how plausible it is
Speaker 1: that something happened, and then maybe we'll talk about who
Speaker 1: might be children of yea, let's talk about possible fathers.
Speaker 1: The first one here, Yeah, okay, and these are just
Speaker 1: the ones that people believe. Maybe the one and the
Speaker 1: first candidate is Thomas Seymour. After the death of Henry
Speaker 1: the Eighth, his widow at that time, that was his
Speaker 1: last wife, Katherine Parr, waited about six months and yeah,
Speaker 1: so she married Thomas Seymour. And that's a different Thomas
Speaker 1: Seymour than might be related to that James Seymour that
Speaker 1: that gave birth to James the six. I think that
Speaker 1: they're not. I thought they I thought that they were
Speaker 1: distantly related, like cousins or something like that. Again, why
Speaker 1: I get so confused when we talked about these stories
Speaker 1: again they all have the same name. Yeah, I wish,
Speaker 1: you know, we need to do to the studios. We
Speaker 1: need to just paint that wall with a chalkboard material
Speaker 1: and then we can just you can and we'll use
Speaker 1: dry race. Yeah that's a good idea. Actually, yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it got to the point where this is so convoluted.
Speaker 1: I stopped trying to, like, you know, figure out who exactly,
Speaker 1: you know, what the relationship between all these people was.
Speaker 1: I know you did work with it, but it is
Speaker 1: it gets out of hand. Oh yeah, So Seymour Thomas Seymour.
Speaker 1: So she remarried, and then Elizabeth came to live with
Speaker 1: Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour for a while, I think
Speaker 1: about ten months. She was fourteen at that time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, a blooming woman. Yeah possibly. Yeah. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: apparently Thomas took a big interest in her and had
Speaker 1: to have it showing up in Elizabeth's bedrooms, you know,
Speaker 1: like early in the morning and for alicking with her
Speaker 1: and tickling her and stuff like that, for quote unquote
Speaker 1: tickling sessions. Yeah. So I don't know how Elizabeth felt
Speaker 1: about this. She might have been flattered by the attention,
Speaker 1: or maybe she was annoyed or maybe a little creeped out.
Speaker 1: Maybe she was really into it, and this is why
Speaker 1: he's he could potentially be the first man who has
Speaker 1: shown any attention to her, so that that would be
Speaker 1: the argument for maybe she actually wasn't put off by it,
Speaker 1: or you know, or he was in a position of
Speaker 1: power in her life and she was didn't feel like
Speaker 1: she was in a place to deny what he was doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was she Maybe it might have felt a little
Speaker 1: bit too handed on. Yeah, I mean, they had opened
Speaker 1: their home to her. She was an orphan. She was
Speaker 1: an orphan, and she was living in a style that
Speaker 1: she was maybe not necessarily accustomed to. And you know,
Speaker 1: they were they were being kind to her, and so
Speaker 1: she thought, well, they're they're being nice to me, so
Speaker 1: I can't say no. And but that's what the situation was.
Speaker 1: Katherine Parr was apparently undisturbed by this behavior at first,
Speaker 1: but apparently kat Ashley was not cool with it at all.
Speaker 1: But Katherine had participated, She had participated a few times
Speaker 1: in these tickling sessions. I can only imagine that Katherine
Speaker 1: didn't so much like Elizabeth, if only because she was
Speaker 1: an earlier child of her past husband's right, So yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe she didn't, but she liked her enough to take
Speaker 1: her in, so that was nice of her. But but
Speaker 1: apparently she decided that it would be best for Elizabeth
Speaker 1: to go live elsewhere. So apparently she decided, for some
Speaker 1: reason or another, she wasn't cool with Elizabeth and her
Speaker 1: husband being under the same roof. So I don't know
Speaker 1: that anything ever actually happened, but we also don't know
Speaker 1: that nothing happened. We also don't know that either Elizabeth
Speaker 1: left the household in May at age fourteen, So there
Speaker 1: was that ten month period in which something could have happened.
Speaker 1: And what's the timeline after that? Is there kind of
Speaker 1: some unaccounted for time in Elizabeth's timeline after that? No,
Speaker 1: there was never any period where she was like out
Speaker 1: of sight or anything like that where she could have
Speaker 1: just been like invisible. But this obviously, in this period
Speaker 1: of her life, she was an Yeah, she was a
Speaker 1: lot less in the public eye, and so it's conceivable
Speaker 1: she could have gone off somewhere and had a baby somewhere,
Speaker 1: especially at thirteen or fourteen. It's not as though it's
Speaker 1: not unusual in those days, not even unusual these days actually,
Speaker 1: But yeah, But and then of course the offspring of
Speaker 1: this liaison was, according to the series, not other than
Speaker 1: William Shakespeare. I'm not sure if it's the same William Shakespeare,
Speaker 1: because Seymour died inte and shakes to be right. As
Speaker 1: far as I know, I was born in fifteen sixty four.
Speaker 1: But you don't know who Shakespeare was. It's hard to say.
Speaker 1: And actually I'm not sure exactly what year he was born,
Speaker 1: because nobody actually has his actual date of birth. Nobody
Speaker 1: actually knows who Shakespeare was. Yeah, he was born, and
Speaker 1: he was not born. He was baptized in fifteen sixty four,
Speaker 1: as William Shakespeare I believe. So yeah, well, and and
Speaker 1: you know, in those days, even a hundred years ago,
Speaker 1: that whole baptism thing, the whole birth record thing was
Speaker 1: kind of just whenever you felt like it. You know,
Speaker 1: I have family just a generation ago that they say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is my birthday because that's when mom wrote it
Speaker 1: in the Bible. My grandfather in fact, found out when
Speaker 1: he lifted in the army that he was a year
Speaker 1: older than he thought he was. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean it happens pretty recently, so and that in
Speaker 1: those days it could have totally happened. Oh yeah, So okay,
Speaker 1: but here's here's my thing with this Thomas Dudley bit
Speaker 1: oh I guess I should, yeah, And I want to
Speaker 1: add I also agreed it's not good. Okay, Okay. So
Speaker 1: the thing is, we haven't said, by the way, he
Speaker 1: was forty years old at this time. Yeah, older in
Speaker 1: her thirty nine or forty, depending on exactly when everything
Speaker 1: went down. But my problem with the whole she was
Speaker 1: pregnant with his child is today it's it's possible for
Speaker 1: girls to get pregnant as early as twelve or thirteen.
Speaker 1: But there's there's the stuff about there's the sexual maturity
Speaker 1: is coming earlier based on diet. Have you ever read
Speaker 1: any of this stuff? Yes, okay, well you were looking
Speaker 1: at me like I was crazy. The reason I'm looking
Speaker 1: at you like you're crazy is because it's not unreasonable
Speaker 1: to think that in that time a girl who was
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen years old would be pregnant. See, but
Speaker 1: I don't know the way I interpreted things. I took
Speaker 1: it as actually the norm for reproductive age was more
Speaker 1: in line with sixteen. But that's not to say that
Speaker 1: it's not possible. At what we're talking, rabbit test is
Speaker 1: possible as well. If we're say whatever is in the
Speaker 1: realm of possible. What's he talking about modern days? Like
Speaker 1: puberty coming very early for girls. We're talking like nine
Speaker 1: and ten, not like thirteen and fourteen. That's a normal
Speaker 1: time for people to be hitting puber So even in
Speaker 1: those days, thirteen and fourteen totally normal for somebody to
Speaker 1: be getting pregnant. We're talking like these days. Okay, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm a misunderstanding what I read,
Speaker 1: but the stuff you're really reading average. Oh yeah, And
Speaker 1: that's the thing is that I'm looking at the average.
Speaker 1: I'm not calling her an exception to the norm. I'm
Speaker 1: saying on average, that's a pretty tall order, fourteen to
Speaker 1: sixteen given two years. But no, I totally hear what
Speaker 1: you're saying. But yeah, but she was She was fourteen
Speaker 1: when she left, so I think she was old enough.
Speaker 1: I really do, because I don't know me and Juliet's
Speaker 1: the one I would go too. But well, but I'm
Speaker 1: written by William Shakespeare. Maybe it was inspired by his mother,
Speaker 1: who got pregnant at sixteen or thirteen. Yeah, there's that's
Speaker 1: a whole another mystery, which well, I don't know if
Speaker 1: we'll ever tackle or not. Was Shakespeare was Shakespeare? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that does seem like Shakespeare is involved in this
Speaker 1: quite a bit, in this whole Elizabeth thing. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the other thing that I was gonna say is that
Speaker 1: Seymour like all of this stuff with him mucking about
Speaker 1: with Elizabeth, Well it feels wrong, and he exhibited some
Speaker 1: really questionable behavior. But he got his head cut off
Speaker 1: the next year because he was in some plot and
Speaker 1: he was sneaking into the King's residence and he set
Speaker 1: off one of the dogs, and rather than like a
Speaker 1: normal person just running away, he shot the dog and
Speaker 1: made a big to do and then got out. Like
Speaker 1: the guy had really bad judgment all the way around.
Speaker 1: So I like, I I questioned whether he was just
Speaker 1: several screws loose and that's why he was messing with her,
Speaker 1: or if it was really some weirdo power play. The
Speaker 1: whole thing just just smells really off to me. It
Speaker 1: was a little off, and it feels really convenient. Yes, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of these feel like, okay, maybe maybe that's a
Speaker 1: legit theory, but a lot of them feel kind of like, well,
Speaker 1: that's very convenient that that would have happened at that time,
Speaker 1: So yeah, so what let's rule him out. Although I
Speaker 1: gotta say that this is a period that I considered
Speaker 1: the most likely because it was before she ascended to
Speaker 1: the throne, so she would have been out of the
Speaker 1: public eye and it would have been easy for her
Speaker 1: to just kind of in nine months, it would have
Speaker 1: been easier. I mean, I still think it would have
Speaker 1: been pretty much impossible to keep it secret. Well, there
Speaker 1: is a way that it could have been kept secret,
Speaker 1: you kill everybody who knows about it. No. No, she
Speaker 1: never brought the child to term, though it was illegal
Speaker 1: and highly frowned upon. Abortions did happen. So it is
Speaker 1: possible that she abhor did the child. And it's also possible,
Speaker 1: based on practices of it at the time, that that
Speaker 1: could have rendered her sterile, which is why she didn't
Speaker 1: never had a kid again and maybe why she chose
Speaker 1: not to have sex again. Yeah. This, this was this
Speaker 1: was not awesome. Don't don't really like that? Thanks? No,
Speaker 1: not doing that again. Yeah, it might be. It might
Speaker 1: be that if she was truly molested by by Thomas Seymour,
Speaker 1: than maybe that kind of turned her off in the
Speaker 1: whole thing exactly. Yeah, so there's a very plausible answer,
Speaker 1: though again I consider Seymour, you know, not a good
Speaker 1: valid um candidate. Yeah, there are a lot of possible
Speaker 1: reasons afterwards. Uh. Yeah. That One reason I don't really
Speaker 1: buy into him as a father is that after she
Speaker 1: left Katherine Parr's household, they still maintain a very friendly correspondence,
Speaker 1: which I think it would be kind of wouldn't you
Speaker 1: think it would be unlikely if Katherine, if her husband
Speaker 1: had impregnated Elizabeth. Do you think she would not be
Speaker 1: feeling all that friendly towards her. I would say that
Speaker 1: that would kind of chill the relationship. Yeah. Yeah, apparently
Speaker 1: had a good relationship, so probably not Thomas. Next on
Speaker 1: our list Robert Dudley, Earl of Lester. And for those
Speaker 1: of you are not British, this is spelled its spelled Leicester,
Speaker 1: but this pronounced Leicester. I really we gotta, we gotta
Speaker 1: start a campaign. You either start adding vowels and continents
Speaker 1: consonants to town names in general just to repeat this pattern,
Speaker 1: or lobby all of England to change the spelling. I'm
Speaker 1: obviously going to marry Prince Harry when I'm queen, I'll
Speaker 1: lobby for that. He married yet he's waiting for me.
Speaker 1: We were talking about Robert Dudley. One of my one
Speaker 1: of my favorite English town names is Dull and it's
Speaker 1: actually spelled the way it's pronounced d u l l.
Speaker 1: And they're the ones that had these sister city relationship
Speaker 1: with the town of Boring, Oregon. Yeah, of course they did, right,
Speaker 1: and these two towns really do exist. Okay, I will
Speaker 1: do an episode about that. Robert Dudley and Elizabeth had
Speaker 1: known each other since they were eight years old. And
Speaker 1: as I said, they were the best of friends, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people suspected at the time that they
Speaker 1: were lovers because they were so close and Elizabeth Shower
Speaker 1: were childhood friends. Oh yeah, and so and so, especially
Speaker 1: one year royalty. And people are always trying to stab
Speaker 1: you in the back. It's probably not that many people
Speaker 1: that you can really trust. So that's gotta have something
Speaker 1: you would think of friends since you were eight you
Speaker 1: probably could trust. Yeah, somebody who's never who's never done
Speaker 1: you wrong, and everything like that. And I think he
Speaker 1: was trustworthy and she she showered lots lots of favors
Speaker 1: on him, and and and of course made everybody think
Speaker 1: that they were lovers. Yeah, that did. Yeah, And there
Speaker 1: was lots of other I will get into every little detail,
Speaker 1: but there was lots lots of reasons. But yeah, he
Speaker 1: benefited quite a bit by his relationship with Elizabeth, financially
Speaker 1: and otherwise. And of course Elizabeth was certainly was intensely
Speaker 1: grief stricken when he died, from the kind of grief
Speaker 1: that you would that you would show display when we
Speaker 1: lost somebody really close to you. Maybe a lover, yeah,
Speaker 1: but maybe a friend. I mean what could be could
Speaker 1: be that too. You know, if you have a true
Speaker 1: intense friend since you're eight, that person is your family.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, definitely, and especially when the actual members
Speaker 1: of your family are either like you know, dead or
Speaker 1: they're off like marrying a new stepmother. Oh yeah, so
Speaker 1: courting your cousin. Yeah, he was probably a more family
Speaker 1: like you said, and there was talk that they might
Speaker 1: potentially get married. But there was one hitch because Dudley
Speaker 1: was married himself. He married a woman named Amy Robesarte
Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing that correctly in fifteen fifty, and then she
Speaker 1: fell down some stairs at her home in fifteen sixty
Speaker 1: and broke her neck, which did clear the way for
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and Robert Dudley to marry, which is handy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but people considered it to be an assassination. Yeah. There
Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation that that Robert Dudley had her,
Speaker 1: had had her murdered, just so he could marry Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: and so he was very unpopular in England for a time,
Speaker 1: actually for quite quite a long time because of that.
Speaker 1: Although personally I don't think he did it. That she
Speaker 1: had another mystery and you'll read the occasional article in
Speaker 1: Britain about it, you know, the unsolved mystery of her
Speaker 1: death and all that stuff. But the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is that she had she had like advanced cancer
Speaker 1: at the time she died, so there was there was
Speaker 1: no reason for him to murder her at all. It
Speaker 1: was a matter of time. Yeah, yeah, okay, we'll put
Speaker 1: that mystery down. But even without being married to Robert Dudley,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they couldn't have, you know, done the
Speaker 1: deed and had kids, or at least eight kid Some
Speaker 1: of some of the proposed offspring were Francis Bacon, france
Speaker 1: Is Bacon. Bacon, Yes, I know, Francis Bacon. How do
Speaker 1: you like that French? Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually you could
Speaker 1: be worse things. Yeah, absolutely, Bacon's pretty well liked Bacon.
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. Yeah, they anyway, Francis Bacon. Of course,
Speaker 1: many people believe was maybe really William Shakespeare here he
Speaker 1: rears his ugly head again in here. So at this
Speaker 1: time Elizabeth would have been twenty eight. She would have
Speaker 1: been on the stone for three years. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: and we're coming. I know where Joe was going with this,
Speaker 1: which is a hard part of hiding it, Yeah, hiding
Speaker 1: a pregnancy. Yeah, well we'll talk about that in a second, though,
Speaker 1: we can talk Yeah, I know what, we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1: Let me just toss a few more out there. Robert Devereaux,
Speaker 1: the second Earl of Essex. When Devereaux came onto the scene,
Speaker 1: he and Elizabeth became besties. And yeah, they were really
Speaker 1: close and some of the even said some of some
Speaker 1: people have speculated that they were actually lovers, like even
Speaker 1: though he was quite a bit younger than her, significantly
Speaker 1: significantly younger. Yeah, but other people have said that they
Speaker 1: had more like a kind of a mother's son relationship
Speaker 1: and they were really close. So if it had been
Speaker 1: deverea oh, then she would have been thirty two years
Speaker 1: old when he was born. Some of the reasons I
Speaker 1: think people suspect him of this is he he was
Speaker 1: kind of a bad actor sometimes. I mean, they had
Speaker 1: they had a good relationship, but he was kind of
Speaker 1: a loose cannon. And didn't he get himself killed well
Speaker 1: by Elizabeth, Yes, she executed him finally, Yeah, because he
Speaker 1: kept doing stupid stuff, yeah, exactly, and so eventually she
Speaker 1: felt she hadn't choice. And I suppose it's possible that
Speaker 1: a mother would have her her son executed. Ye, sounds
Speaker 1: kind of unlikely. Well, but he did some read she
Speaker 1: kept giving him military commissions and he kept no showing,
Speaker 1: which is a huge no no, Like, just show up
Speaker 1: and stay in the tent for God's sake. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: just you know, and in the end you got involved
Speaker 1: in a plot you know again which you know, against
Speaker 1: your own mother. Huh. Maybe don't do that. Of course,
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't know that he was actually her son,
Speaker 1: but I still find it hard to believe that she
Speaker 1: would do that rather than just like have him locked
Speaker 1: up permanently in the tower as yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about another candidate, who was Arthur Dudley. Dudley showed
Speaker 1: up in the court of Philip with Spain in seven
Speaker 1: and claimed to be the son of Robert Dudley and
Speaker 1: Elizabeth he said. He said that he was raised unaware
Speaker 1: of this by a guy named Robert Southern, who told
Speaker 1: him on his deathbed who he really was, and Dudley
Speaker 1: fled the country, he said, because he was afraid that
Speaker 1: Elizabeth agents would murder him to keep the secret that
Speaker 1: he now knew, which makes no sense. Yeah, now, if
Speaker 1: they were going to kill you. They'd have killed you
Speaker 1: a long time ago. Well, they have no idea when
Speaker 1: you were told the truth. Well, the only guy, the
Speaker 1: only guy who knew was the guy who told him,
Speaker 1: who died immediately afterwards, Robert Southern. So he just kept
Speaker 1: his mouth shut. He was perfectly safe. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much of that makes sense. Arthur
Speaker 1: Dudley did actually exist. Their strong evidence at least that
Speaker 1: he did. There's there's mention of even the records in
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's court that they were aware that he showed up
Speaker 1: at Philip's court in Spain. The thing that though he
Speaker 1: showed up in the cord, it's really suspected that he
Speaker 1: wasn't really who he said. He wasn't. By that, I mean,
Speaker 1: he wasn't. He may not have actually been Arthur Dudley
Speaker 1: because there were spies everywhere, and it seems like there's
Speaker 1: some research that indicates it he was a spy who
Speaker 1: really stuck to his story. It would not let it go.
Speaker 1: That is what a lot of people believed at the
Speaker 1: time time. Yeah, so it's uh, it's I don't know
Speaker 1: too many people to take this guy seriously. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was he wasn't around it. He did make these claims,
Speaker 1: but he was probably just an impostor. And when do
Speaker 1: we know, um, when would he have how old was he?
Speaker 1: When't we have been born? He would have been born? Well,
Speaker 1: it depending. I've heard various estimates, but based on his age,
Speaker 1: it was it was estimated that he was about twenty five,
Speaker 1: I think, and that he would have been born maybe
Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty one. And uh so in summer fifteen
Speaker 1: sixty one, there was one significant thing, which was that
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was ill. She got she had this spell where
Speaker 1: she came down with edema, which is swelling of the tissues.
Speaker 1: And at the time right exactly, and maybe she could
Speaker 1: have been pregnant, you know, she was bedridden and all that.
Speaker 1: And then so this is also around and sorry, how
Speaker 1: old would she have been? She would have been twenty eight? Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I at that as as someone who
Speaker 1: is currently twenty eight years old. At that time, that
Speaker 1: seems like it would be late to be pregnant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in that day and age, that seems like a late pregnancy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're talking. You know, people are getting pregnant of fifteen,
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen, maybe as early as thirteen fourteen. Maybe you know,
Speaker 1: to carry a baby to term and have it be
Speaker 1: healthy and survive. It's not unheard of, certainly it's not
Speaker 1: unheard of, but it seems it's the older you get,
Speaker 1: the harder it is. Well, yeah, I mean I understand,
Speaker 1: and with modern medicine it's like fine, But at those
Speaker 1: times when we were like, hey, yeah, leeches, that will
Speaker 1: solve your problem, no problem, yeah, or what was it
Speaker 1: they were given they would give mothers during or after
Speaker 1: childbirth or got did you guys know that just recently? Yeah,
Speaker 1: here's yeah, no problem. Yeah, no, you're gonna be good.
Speaker 1: It's some old it's fine. I know your body thinks
Speaker 1: that that's poison and which anyway, Yeah, that's that's why
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff was like like alcohol, for example,
Speaker 1: it makes you feel better, it makes you good. Good, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really kind of poison. So and things like like
Speaker 1: blood letting and stuff like, well it happened the blood
Speaker 1: pressure drop would make you high and would make you
Speaker 1: light headed and feel you would think that's fine, and
Speaker 1: then and they concluded, hey, you know this must be
Speaker 1: beneficial because they report feeling better, and so yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 1: It's totally possible. And the fact that she was sick
Speaker 1: with dropsy, which you know, bedridden for a couple of months, swollen,
Speaker 1: I hear it. Yeah, maybe she was pregnant. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's let's go go on for our next Well, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: just quickly. Wasn't that about at the same time that
Speaker 1: Francis Bacon was? Yeah, it was born too. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: make sure. So it was either Francis Bacon A. K.
Speaker 1: Shakespeare or was Arthur Deadley or neither one? Neither, Yeah,
Speaker 1: or she actually just had a demon. Yeah, probably that's
Speaker 1: what it was. I mean, I can I can't imagine.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know a demon causes swelling, but that
Speaker 1: would be a lot of swelling, you know what I
Speaker 1: mean to be actual pregnancy sized. I mean, I I
Speaker 1: every woman carries a pregnancy different and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of people who I like, didn't believe
Speaker 1: are pregnant, who are like nine months pregnant. And I've
Speaker 1: also seen pictures of people who are nine months pregnant
Speaker 1: that I think, like, you're just obese. It's hard to tell.
Speaker 1: It's just it's hard to tell. Everybody cares a pregnancy differently,
Speaker 1: and if you've got all these corsets and you're kind
Speaker 1: of bedridden and people are thinking, oh, you're sick, it's possible.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not willing to discount it. Yeah, okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's go on to our next suspect, who was Edward
Speaker 1: de Vere seventeenth Earl of Oxford, who of course, was
Speaker 1: also rumored to be William Shakespeare. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know. I mean, there's a whole huge
Speaker 1: community out there people who are or were arguing back
Speaker 1: and forth on it. This guy was Shakespeare, this guy
Speaker 1: was Shakespeare. They have all kinds of theories and evidence
Speaker 1: and everything, and again that may be an episode in there.
Speaker 1: Who you never know, I don't know. I mean, we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to get some serious scholarly work done if
Speaker 1: we're gonna do that. I mean, these guys are these
Speaker 1: guys are hardcore. I mean, these guys aren't just guys.
Speaker 1: Aren't read it or anything like that. They're writing books
Speaker 1: about yeah, slamming read it. But yeah, this is a
Speaker 1: little more scholarly. But anyway, back to our thing, the
Speaker 1: offspring of Oxford and Elizabeth would have been a guy
Speaker 1: named Henry Ry Osley, who was born in fifteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: And I don't know whatever I want on to happen
Speaker 1: to Henry, but there's not much out there on him.
Speaker 1: But at this time, Elizabeth would have had to have
Speaker 1: been about forty, which causes me a little bit of
Speaker 1: doubt that forty seriously at that a and there's now
Speaker 1: even now it's tough to get pregnant forty. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So the problem I have with all these series is
Speaker 1: that is it again, this all took place after ascended
Speaker 1: to the throne except the first one. The except for
Speaker 1: the first one was with Thomas. So it's like imagining
Speaker 1: it would have been a little easier than it's, say,
Speaker 1: Princess Diana going about her everyday business pregnant, not having
Speaker 1: a paparazzi not notice it. But still there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people around. There would have had to been people
Speaker 1: attending to her childbirth and stuff like that. So somebody
Speaker 1: you would think would have talked. Do you think after Yeah,
Speaker 1: at least after the fact, you would think, you you
Speaker 1: can understand maybe while she was alive, you know, you're
Speaker 1: keeping somebody rich there there's no reason to talk. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a good reason not to make the
Speaker 1: queen mad but running your mouth. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: a lot of people would have written it down in
Speaker 1: their memoirs or their diaries, their journals that would have
Speaker 1: been mentioned of it. I wanted to talk about one
Speaker 1: more suspect for a father, which was a guy named
Speaker 1: Miles Stafford, and he has very recently been put forward
Speaker 1: by a guy named Seth Margolis who published a novel
Speaker 1: called The Simpers on It. I don't think it's too
Speaker 1: much of a spoiler to reveal this, but but does
Speaker 1: have a child very early in the book. And again
Speaker 1: much I want to I want to clarify is a
Speaker 1: work of fiction. But Seth did a ton of research.
Speaker 1: He did a lot of research for this book. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: and so, uh let me give you a quick rundown
Speaker 1: of the plot. Our protagonist is a woman named Lee Nichols.
Speaker 1: So she's discovered a previously unknown sonnet by William Shakespeare.
Speaker 1: When she goes public with it, all hell breaks loose
Speaker 1: and she finds out that some people really really want
Speaker 1: that sonnet for reasons you'll discover if you read the book.
Speaker 1: Uh So, anyway, it's it's it's a fun it's a
Speaker 1: fun read. Seth. We actually were able to get ahold
Speaker 1: of him. He was. He was kind enough to actually
Speaker 1: answer some questions about Elizabeth and his research and uh
Speaker 1: and his book, and so let's talk to Seth here
Speaker 1: for a second. So Seth, thanks for thanks for talking
Speaker 1: to us. We really appreciate it. And I guess my
Speaker 1: first question for you is that you have found a
Speaker 1: new potential father for a child that Elizabeth might have
Speaker 1: had named Miles Stafford. So did Myles really exist? And
Speaker 1: already say, it's okay, it was much. I found it
Speaker 1: much more interesting to invent him and then dispatch him quickly.
Speaker 1: You never really hear from him other than that he
Speaker 1: had um this rare genetic disorder that passed on the
Speaker 1: this um tendency to shivering, as someone calls it in
Speaker 1: the book, which was an interesting um sort of way
Speaker 1: to keep his sort of lineage alive. Was you know,
Speaker 1: not in a particularly positive way. Um. It also made it,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're writing a thriller, it made it
Speaker 1: interesting because you know, when the uh Lee Nicholson, the
Speaker 1: twenty first century heroin of the book, would come across
Speaker 1: various locations where the Filer family lived Um, she would seat,
Speaker 1: for instance, two fireplaces in one room and realized, you know,
Speaker 1: that became an indication that these people who lived there
Speaker 1: had a real obsession with staying warm. So that's the
Speaker 1: one thing that that I had my fictional father of
Speaker 1: the of the Elizabeth than offspring um pass on to
Speaker 1: his to his descendants um. And of course the name
Speaker 1: filer you know, as you know because you read the book,
Speaker 1: it's full of wordplay and the you know, the word
Speaker 1: filer um is an adaptation of the French word feast
Speaker 1: for son and e er of course for Elizabeth Rex
Speaker 1: and French was the main language spoken at the time
Speaker 1: of her version of it in the Elizabethan court. So
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, it was interesting or likely
Speaker 1: that she would have had, if she had a child,
Speaker 1: might have given him that name just as a sort
Speaker 1: of sly reference to who his his at least his
Speaker 1: mother was. So in real life one candidate for a
Speaker 1: child was Elizabeth. That's really popular with a lot of people,
Speaker 1: as Robert Devereau, what do you think about as a suspect,
Speaker 1: and right, he was one of several people that she
Speaker 1: sort of showered her um royal pleasures on in ways
Speaker 1: that that um mystified people at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: why him, and so there were always rumors and she did,
Speaker 1: she did have a very close relationship with his father,
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley, also known as m Lester, And you know,
Speaker 1: I think she had his bedroom moved next to hers,
Speaker 1: and you know, there are all sorts of so you know,
Speaker 1: if if there was going to be an offspring, it
Speaker 1: would have been most likely with him, and there was
Speaker 1: actually there was someone named Arthur Dudley who surfaced at
Speaker 1: one point who claimed to be the offspring of the
Speaker 1: two of them shut up at Philip of Spain's place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because the Catholics never never saw her as a legitimate
Speaker 1: well as legitimate period, but as a legitimate monarch of England.
Speaker 1: So if they could find any sort of scandal that
Speaker 1: would um you know, add further illegitimacy to her, it
Speaker 1: would work to their ends. And in fact, in my book,
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that she um disguises the
Speaker 1: fact that she had a child, was that it would
Speaker 1: just it would imperil her her claim to the throne.
Speaker 1: And of course in the Samprasan, she has the child
Speaker 1: before she becomes queen most of the rumors about or
Speaker 1: the theories about her having a child have her having
Speaker 1: the childs while she was queen, and and there's and
Speaker 1: as I said, there's so many of them. You know,
Speaker 1: she at one point, um, she she took to her
Speaker 1: bed she had some sort of mysterious illness on which
Speaker 1: I think they called at the time dropsy, but today
Speaker 1: we would call it a demon, which is the swelling
Speaker 1: in the mid section. So of course if you, um,
Speaker 1: and I think that's pretty much historical fact that she had,
Speaker 1: that she was taken to her bed with dropsy or
Speaker 1: a demon, and that she had a swollen abdomen. So
Speaker 1: if you're inclined to think that she had a child,
Speaker 1: this might have been a good time for that child
Speaker 1: to have been carried, because she had you know, she
Speaker 1: could have used that as an excuse to to disguise
Speaker 1: her pregnancy. The last question, You've got a lot more
Speaker 1: research on this really than we have, And so I
Speaker 1: guess i'd like to know, do you really think Elizabeth
Speaker 1: had a child? You know, I don't know. I would
Speaker 1: suspect not. I tend to be a discounter of conspiracy theories, um,
Speaker 1: And so you know, it was a really intriguing idea
Speaker 1: for a novel, And there are bits and pieces of
Speaker 1: her life and the circumstances around it that might lead
Speaker 1: you to think she had a child. Um but I
Speaker 1: tend to think she didn't. But you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, you know, if you think about
Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist in general,
Speaker 1: so I think Lee Harry as Oswald acted alone. But
Speaker 1: a lot of people just feel that it's it's just
Speaker 1: unthinkable that this great man, who was so beloved at
Speaker 1: the time and maybe even more so in retrospect, could
Speaker 1: be brought down by one lunatic with good aim. You
Speaker 1: wanted to be a conspiracy because it seems unfitting that
Speaker 1: such a great person could be eliminated by such a nobody.
Speaker 1: With Elizabeth, there's a similar frustration that arguably the greatest
Speaker 1: certainly the greatest monarch and in English history, and maybe
Speaker 1: one of the great leaders in world history, just and
Speaker 1: you know her her line ended with her death and
Speaker 1: the tutors were no more, her genes were no more.
Speaker 1: How could that be? It just it doesn't seem fitting somehow, um,
Speaker 1: So people constantly want her to um to have left
Speaker 1: something behind um and and in the way, that's the
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the fascination with her in general,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's certainly the reason that a lot
Speaker 1: of these theories continue to flourish. And it's really the
Speaker 1: reason I wrote the book. It said, I tend to
Speaker 1: think you're probably right. I think that it's unlikely. Like
Speaker 1: you say, people just can't accept it. And people love
Speaker 1: to speculate about royalty. That's just a major sport here
Speaker 1: in America and Europe here. Yeah, well we do. It's
Speaker 1: British royalty is a lot of people seem to worship
Speaker 1: those people. Anyway. Thanks, thanks again to Seth for talking
Speaker 1: to us his book. If you care to pick it
Speaker 1: up and read it, it's called The Snappers on It
Speaker 1: little book. Oh yeah, it's fun read. Uh. Now back
Speaker 1: to our mystery for a second. Here. There's one other
Speaker 1: permutation of this, which is that she didn't have a
Speaker 1: child because she couldn't have a child because she was
Speaker 1: actually a guy. Oh god, yeah, yeah, Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: let your own with this movie because I want to
Speaker 1: have a heyday with it. I just want to let
Speaker 1: you tell the story because this one is so outlandish
Speaker 1: to me. It is, it is, but it's crazy. It's
Speaker 1: funny to me because it's so crazy. This story actually
Speaker 1: has a pretty good pedigree, though you know that. It's
Speaker 1: sometimes called the Busley Boy, and it begins with Bram Stoker,
Speaker 1: who you may have heard of if you haven't heard
Speaker 1: of him. And he's the guy who wrote Tracula, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, which book. Yeah, it is actually a pretty
Speaker 1: influential book when you think about it. It's got some bite.
Speaker 1: Stoker claim the story isn't actually not something he made up,
Speaker 1: but it actually originated in the village of Busley in Gloucestershire,
Speaker 1: which is where he heard the original story from the locals,
Speaker 1: and he wrote about in a book called Famous Impostors,
Speaker 1: which he published in nine So, according to Stoker's story,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was sent to Busiley in fifteen forty three or
Speaker 1: fifteen forty four. Dates are a little vague due to
Speaker 1: a plague outbreak in London, and I checked in. There
Speaker 1: was some plague at loose in London at that time,
Speaker 1: although it was not the Great Plague which was the
Speaker 1: one that really slaughtered a lot of people. But ironically
Speaker 1: and busily she got sick and died anyway, and her
Speaker 1: governess Cat Ashley, remember her, learned that Henry the eighth
Speaker 1: was on his way for a visit. So what to do?
Speaker 1: This is kind of actually kind of like a sitcom.
Speaker 1: You know, you've been you're taking care of your friends,
Speaker 1: Cat and killed you find the duplicate, wasn't there? I
Speaker 1: didn't Cramer pull that once or something on Seinfeld. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's it's that's a well recycled plot line. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: So Cat come the village looking for a little girl
Speaker 1: who looks similar to Elizabeth. Then couldn't find anybody. And
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, isn't that weird? And some
Speaker 1: people who come around looking at your kids saying can
Speaker 1: we borrow your kid for like a couple of decades
Speaker 1: for the royal Yeah, that would have been that would
Speaker 1: have been tricky. But then she had an idea. There
Speaker 1: was this little boy who lived nearby, and Elizabeth actually
Speaker 1: been playing with him somewhat and he was thin and
Speaker 1: pale and about the same size and had reddish hair
Speaker 1: like Liz. And so she had this idea that, well,
Speaker 1: we'll swap We'll swap the little boy and we'll dress
Speaker 1: him in girl's clothes, and Henry will be totally fooled.
Speaker 1: And so Henry is an idiot. Yeah, and of course
Speaker 1: he was fooled because he's an idiot. Yeah. And uh,
Speaker 1: the other question, he didn't notice the hair die. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I'm when I'm curious about is a ram Stoker.
Speaker 1: I'll take his word for it and be honestly, was
Speaker 1: told this story. But how had they kept this for centuries?
Speaker 1: And he said that they were so isolated that the
Speaker 1: story just never got out. That's what he actually wrote.
Speaker 1: I read that. I read part of his famous Impostors book.
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense to me, but okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah, well anyway, here's here. Here are bram
Speaker 1: Stoker's reasons why it probably is true. Number when Elizabeth
Speaker 1: was very secretive. She seemed to have a big secret
Speaker 1: because some people said, uh number two. She was very
Speaker 1: close to her inner circle, just several people. She treated
Speaker 1: them all very favorably, kept them all close, and that
Speaker 1: was probably her way. I'm sorry we debunking this now.
Speaker 1: Yet she refused to marry. There were rumors that she
Speaker 1: couldn't bear children. There was apparently, he says, I had
Speaker 1: no way of checking this. I didn't. There was that
Speaker 1: correspondence between Elizabeth and Catherine Parr. Apparently that the style
Speaker 1: of those letters changed after this, after this. Uh. And
Speaker 1: one of her teachers felt that she was way too
Speaker 1: smart and clear thinking to be a woman. I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm actually offended by that. And this is
Speaker 1: like thousands of years later, and I am offended thousands. Yeah,
Speaker 1: tack it up with Bram. Just keep going. I am
Speaker 1: obviously not a man, so I am not as smart
Speaker 1: and clear thinking well as queen. Can I point something out?
Speaker 1: Hundreds Steve and I always sell her mystery, don't actually, Joe,
Speaker 1: can I point something out? Only you ever solved the mystery? Wait? Wait,
Speaker 1: wait wait, can I point something out? Joe's a liar?
Speaker 1: He never saw Alright, fine, let's get back here. Let's see.
Speaker 1: She had a large wig collection, which obviously she was
Speaker 1: probably using to cover up exactly, That's why I have them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She had only a few regular doctors, and she refused
Speaker 1: to ever see any other doctors because they're going to
Speaker 1: find out that guess what, she's got something going on
Speaker 1: down there. Uh. And she also insisted that no autopsy
Speaker 1: would be done after her death. So okay, all those
Speaker 1: good reasons. Yeah, but on the other hand, it's still
Speaker 1: hard to believe Henry the eighth was session idiot that
Speaker 1: he wouldn't notice that while while the Royalty didn't spend
Speaker 1: all day every day with their child, they wouldn't know
Speaker 1: what their child looked like. So yeah, that's a difficult one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and frankly, you know, it's it's a really
Speaker 1: big gamble because you've got to hope you've not only
Speaker 1: found yourself a little boy who sort of resembles Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: but who actually has some acting skills and knows something
Speaker 1: about Elizabeth's life. And so that was a big chance
Speaker 1: that Kat was taking there. Uh, the other reason that
Speaker 1: the wigs Elizabeth there were big people that actually saw
Speaker 1: her without her wigs on, and she wasn't bald, she
Speaker 1: had a full head of hair. She didn't she didn't
Speaker 1: have a full head of hair. She had small scars
Speaker 1: because she got smallpox at one point and she she
Speaker 1: had pretty severe scarring from it. And that was one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I've seen listen that she had
Speaker 1: she got she had more wigs after that was to
Speaker 1: cover the bald spots that were caused by the scar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't male pattern, No, it wasn't. It wasn't
Speaker 1: my hair line, which is a very shallow hair line,
Speaker 1: by the way, I would back there, I would I
Speaker 1: would also suspect that of like a symptom of lead poisoning.
Speaker 1: There's always that. You know, a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of dishwaar in those days was made of lead. They
Speaker 1: that lead was so malleable you could hammer it into
Speaker 1: all kinds of nice shapes. But I keep bringing that
Speaker 1: up because the white face paint that they used was
Speaker 1: literally lead base. So the white face paint that Elizabeth
Speaker 1: would have been slathering all over her face and putting
Speaker 1: on her lips every day was lead. It was like
Speaker 1: so much lead. Yeah, but I guess also like lead
Speaker 1: leads to infertility, like poisoning does lead into fertility, So
Speaker 1: that's the problem too. It leads to a lot of
Speaker 1: organ issues. But I mean those are ye bring that
Speaker 1: up because she smeared all over her face a little time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but again that there was a lot of lead and everything.
Speaker 1: They were ingesting it all the time. But no no, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: not good for you, but it does very bad things. Yeah. Oh,
Speaker 1: back to back to where she was a guy thing.
Speaker 1: Apparently Elizabeth did have periods because Philip with span was,
Speaker 1: as you know, interested in knowing whether she could bear children,
Speaker 1: because he was still thought there was a chance that
Speaker 1: he was going to get to marry her. Of course
Speaker 1: he wanted an air, but his spies bribed the queen's
Speaker 1: launderers for details of whether she was menstruating. Did she
Speaker 1: ever cycle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And the answer came back, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: she she is menstruating. Obligatory. Just because you get your
Speaker 1: period doesn't mean that your fertile statement. I guess that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What's the other thing? She often wore dresses with low necklines.
Speaker 1: Have you met a drag queen? Ever? What? What the
Speaker 1: hell does that mean? Yeah? I don't know. How are
Speaker 1: you saying that she She couldn't have been because she
Speaker 1: would have had a hairy chest if she was. None
Speaker 1: of her portraits seemed to have her be particularly busty.
Speaker 1: That's true, she could have been. It should have been
Speaker 1: a guy with a push up rock. She wore those
Speaker 1: really tight corsets. And the other thing that I was
Speaker 1: thinking of, Okay, holy hell, I'm gonna, I mean, actually
Speaker 1: defend this for a second. Is that to have the
Speaker 1: voice of a woman and to have some of the
Speaker 1: lighter build. There's an easy way to have a boy
Speaker 1: do that castration, which is to make up a Eunich
Speaker 1: and then the test astro doesn't kick in and all
Speaker 1: that pesky hair doesn't show up. Good point. And actually, frankly,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at pictures, you know, portraits of Elizabeth now
Speaker 1: and they're all like, very flat chested. And she also
Speaker 1: had the neck ruffle that she loved to wear that
Speaker 1: would also cover up the difference between her neck. But
Speaker 1: they're very flat chested. That was what was in style
Speaker 1: at that point. I know, of course it's were rather tight. Well,
Speaker 1: they were tight, but they also that was in style
Speaker 1: was to have no boobs at that time. You know nothing,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, maybe I can't imagine that
Speaker 1: every being style, but okay, here not much outs. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, if if it's hard to believe they could
Speaker 1: have castrated the kid, because if if somebody said, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, just to just make this whole list tarade
Speaker 1: work out, we're gonna have castrated, I think I would
Speaker 1: be like slipping out the back door and heading on home.
Speaker 1: Do you think even if somebody was like, but literally,
Speaker 1: you will be the richest person in this country and
Speaker 1: you will rule it. That's true. But I watched I
Speaker 1: watched Alma Dais, and that kid was kind of down
Speaker 1: with it. I can see this being okay, okay, all right, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll go with that. Then yeah, okay, so Liz got
Speaker 1: castrated and then thank you. Yeah, okay, actually over. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys looked at the Elizabeth files.
Speaker 1: Oh lord, how could I not? Yeah, it is a
Speaker 1: huge trove of information. Yeah, it is amazing. Actually, we'll
Speaker 1: post a link to the Elizabeth Files if you're really
Speaker 1: interested in learning more about Elizabeth's is pretty cool. It's
Speaker 1: well written, well organized. It is well organized. It is.
Speaker 1: It is one of those sites. I've said this about
Speaker 1: sites before, is I feel like there is so much
Speaker 1: information on them that it's overwhelming. I read two or
Speaker 1: three or four are because I remember how many I
Speaker 1: read on there, and then they would keep coming up
Speaker 1: in searches and I just stopped going there because there
Speaker 1: was so much detail. It's quite well done. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. It's research that's definitely authoritative. But I got
Speaker 1: this little tidbit from from the Elizabeth files, which was
Speaker 1: that at some point during Mary's negotiations with the various
Speaker 1: monarchs around Europe, a panel of doctors examined Elizabeth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's actually could still bear children. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: a real big deal back in those days. And yeah,
Speaker 1: they gave me the conclusion that she could. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure how they could have examined her that closely
Speaker 1: to the terms she could have children without noticing that
Speaker 1: she had a little something extra down down there. You
Speaker 1: know you think, yeah, you would, you would probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would notice if Elizabeth was actually a dude. Let's
Speaker 1: be fair, Yeah, I think you would. Though again, in fairness,
Speaker 1: just examining somebody doesn't mean that you're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to tell if they can have a kid. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: don't know how you tell that either, I don't know. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: so okay, to answer our questions, Uh, did she send
Speaker 1: the run up colonists off to their death? Yes? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: absolutely she did. H Yeah, she actually like when they
Speaker 1: opened up their food supplies, I found there was nothing
Speaker 1: but lead makeup in there. Pretty sure, makeup and neck ruffles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sucks to be you anyway. The next question, did she
Speaker 1: have a child I'm kind of doubting it. Um maybe,
Speaker 1: but I really kind of doubted. I think we would
Speaker 1: have heard something. I don't know, because my I have
Speaker 1: a hard time with unless it was even if it
Speaker 1: was somebody like like Seemore, somebody after the fact, that
Speaker 1: there were ways for for contraception, and there were practices postcopulation,
Speaker 1: you know, for making sure that a he didn't didn't
Speaker 1: come to full term. These things happen, and those things
Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier. I mean, I saw stuff in
Speaker 1: the reading that that can have a permanent effect on
Speaker 1: a woman's ability to be able to bear children. So
Speaker 1: I could see how that that's that's why where I lean.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that she was actually the
Speaker 1: virgin Queen. I don't think that she abstained for her
Speaker 1: entire No, So that's why that's why I leaned to
Speaker 1: that direct. Yeah. No, I think if she was pregnant,
Speaker 1: it had to have happened before she ascended to the throne.
Speaker 1: If she ever had a child, it would have had
Speaker 1: had happened, was the queen, you know, and I but
Speaker 1: I do agree it seems unlikely, but it's possible. But
Speaker 1: I also totally disagree with the whole idea that obviously
Speaker 1: William Shakespeare has to be the child of Elizabeth. That's
Speaker 1: just that's silly to me. But I I don't think
Speaker 1: she probably had a child, but if she did, it
Speaker 1: was very early in her life, and that person would
Speaker 1: have been raised totally supper from her and probably unlikely
Speaker 1: probably not of her own consent, right, I mean that
Speaker 1: that baby would have been taken away from her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would have been like, you know, you're not even
Speaker 1: gonna know who you can is probably, which would be
Speaker 1: a disincentive to ever do it again, exactly. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: would be. Yeah. Okay, last question. We'll see you guy, Okay, alright, fine,
Speaker 1: Uh well, I guess that's it for this week. If
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about this, if if you're descending
Speaker 1: from Elizabeth, of course, uh, we would love to hear
Speaker 1: from you, so, especially if your name is Prince Harry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so write us at Thinking Sideways Podcast. So write us
Speaker 1: at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. There's
Speaker 1: also our website, of course, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh.
Speaker 1: You can listen to the episodes. You can check the
Speaker 1: links that we put up for further information, and we
Speaker 1: will put up a link to the Elizabeth Files and
Speaker 1: there's a ton of st up out there. You'll enjoy it.
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Speaker 1: We've got like T shirts and mugs and shirts. Somebody
Speaker 1: bought the Mary Celeste the other day. I saw that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's really cool. I I have not actually yet
Speaker 1: seen the Mary Celeste T shirt. I gotta go out
Speaker 1: and look at it. What is your dealings of things? Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna have to get one for myself. I
Speaker 1: thought about buying you one. Yeah, and then I decided
Speaker 1: I'm going to get a bumber stare for my car there. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: actually I bye bye pstus by the gross and put
Speaker 1: them on all kinds of people's cars. Yeah. I'm not
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Speaker 1: Uh So that's Patreon dot com, slash thinking sideways or
Speaker 1: the website. Yeah for merch. Yeah all right, Well that's
Speaker 1: it for Elizabeth. Another great historic mystery solved. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you bradish people to police. Don't be offended by all this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think she had a kid. Yeah, you guys,
Speaker 1: I know I'm not passion enough Yeah me, neither alright,
Speaker 1: by everybody, hie guys.