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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not supported by a desert native in

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Speaker 1: hip waders. Instead, it's supported by the generous donations of

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Speaker 1: our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking

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Speaker 1: sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: You never know stories of things we simply don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer to. Hie there, Welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by Steve. This

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Speaker 1: week we're gonna be talking about the disappearance of Devon.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Devon from Thinking Sideways. She was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be at the recording studios at seven pm. It's

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Speaker 1: seven oh five and she's not here, alright? Theories she

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Speaker 1: ran away and starting new life. Can you get that? Yeah? Sorry, guys, Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Okay, sorry, okay, okay. Hey, Well, time to

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Speaker 1: find a new mystery. Hang on a second while you

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Speaker 1: go to the Google. Uh, please enjoy this really RESTful

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Speaker 1: elevator music. Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe, joined as always by and Yeah. This week

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a few mysteries surrounding Queen Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: the First of England. Some of you guys may have

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Speaker 1: heard of her once or twice. Yeah, I guess. And

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Speaker 1: these are a couple of different mysteries that have been

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Speaker 1: suggested to us by so many people that I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to give you guys a shout out. It's to

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Speaker 1: say thanks for the suggestions. Well, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: mysteries around her. There are some mysteries around here. One

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Speaker 1: of the first mysteries that she was involved in was

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Speaker 1: the misplaced colony of Roanoke. Also that as a colony,

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Speaker 1: we can't seem to put our hands on it. The

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Speaker 1: moment calling me of nothing to see here, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: please move along, yeah yeah, don't mind the alien burn

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Speaker 1: marks stuff. Yeah, but she was involved in that because

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Speaker 1: she wanted to get England a tohede in the New World.

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Speaker 1: All the Europeans were doing that. It was it was

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Speaker 1: all the rage back in those days. Yeah, she granted

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Speaker 1: a charter to Sir Walter Rawleigh. So you found a

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Speaker 1: settlement in what would become Virginia, which is named after

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth because she was the Virgin Queen. Yeah yeah, nick yeah,

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Speaker 1: good Queen Bass. And next she had one or two

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Speaker 1: other nicknames, a lot of them. Yeah, she did and

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Speaker 1: here's but another mystery about her is people have been

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Speaker 1: wondering for a long long time they still are today,

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Speaker 1: is did she ever have a child? And it is

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Speaker 1: one of them. That's a that's a big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna jump in here real quick and

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Speaker 1: say that historic mysteries like this it will probably not

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Speaker 1: surprise any of our listeners bother me a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I am not super stoked in the idea of the

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Speaker 1: public fascination of was this woman of virgin Was she not?

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Speaker 1: Did she have a child? Did she not? Though I

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Speaker 1: understand in this one circumstance that it is of historic

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Speaker 1: significance and totally worth an episode. So if I seem

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Speaker 1: a little cranky, that's why. Sorry God, Yeah, well the

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Speaker 1: is it so box away? Yeah? By yeah, I expect

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Speaker 1: a little crankiness there, um, but you know it is.

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Speaker 1: It is kind of something to ponder because she said

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Speaker 1: she was she said she was going to remain unmarried

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Speaker 1: in Virgin and YadA, YadA, YadA. But you may big

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Speaker 1: deal out of it. Yeah. The royal courts back in

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Speaker 1: those days were kind of libidinous places. Yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot of hanky packing going on.

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Speaker 1: Pull that one on. Yeah, I gotta be honest with

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Speaker 1: the stuff that I've read about the things that went

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Speaker 1: on in court and all of the political dealings. I

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Speaker 1: know I've probably said this before and I'll probably say

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Speaker 1: it again. I don't even understand how the royalty managed

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Speaker 1: to exist with all of the games they were. But

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Speaker 1: then again, I don't understand how the political system in

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Speaker 1: our own country, which is pretty similar, has managed to

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Speaker 1: get along as long as it has. Yeah. So luckily,

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Speaker 1: the mystery that we're talking about is did Elizabeth have

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Speaker 1: a kid? Not? Was she a virgin, which is one

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Speaker 1: that people have suggested and I have outright refused every

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Speaker 1: single time because I just I don't care to talk

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Speaker 1: about that. But we are going to talk about today, right,

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Speaker 1: did she have whether she had a kid? So let's

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Speaker 1: get to it. Let's solve this. Yeah, but before I

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Speaker 1: get into the mystery thing, I think I should give

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Speaker 1: everybody a little background on Elizabeth the first Yeah, in

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Speaker 1: case you haven't heard of her. Yeah, that's a little

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Speaker 1: history lesson here. It'll be brief. Don't worry, don't go away. Well,

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Speaker 1: I watched the Tutors, so I know all this Okay,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth was born the same thrones, right yeah, real history,

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Speaker 1: the documentary with real dragons. Yeah. Well, I mean England

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Speaker 1: always had that giant ice wall, right yeah, okay, sweet,

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Speaker 1: go ahead you okay. So she was born fifty three,

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Speaker 1: the daughter of Henry the Eighth and Anne Bolan, who

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Speaker 1: was his second wife and radiate. Um. Yeah, and that's sure.

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Speaker 1: You guys have all heard of Henry the eighth and

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Speaker 1: the sixth wife. But if you have, and here's a

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Speaker 1: quick rundown. Henry was a second monarch in the Tutor line,

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Speaker 1: and his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, had a daughter

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Speaker 1: who would later become Queen Mary the First. And then

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Speaker 1: Henry got impatient with Catherine because she had actually six children,

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Speaker 1: but only one of them survived. Three of them were

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Speaker 1: still born, and two of them died shortly after childbirth,

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Speaker 1: and so he she hadn't given him a son, and

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Speaker 1: he really really strangely valued it was very much of

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Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. Uh. So he decided to move on

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Speaker 1: and so you found found this new girl in boleyn

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Speaker 1: uh and married her. There's one hit. So he needed

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Speaker 1: to persuade the pope to annul his marriage to Katherine

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Speaker 1: and the boat said no, understandably that the church does

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Speaker 1: not condone, does not condone divorce. Yeah, they're a little

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Speaker 1: more lenient on these days, but at that time they

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Speaker 1: were like, nah, yeah, it was seriously, seriously, I just

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that the Church of England was

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Speaker 1: created because the king was like, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: don't really like my wife anymore. That's the whole reason

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Speaker 1: for it. I really want to bang this more attractive,

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Speaker 1: younger chick. I mean, I Steve his like laugh, He's

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Speaker 1: like about following his chair right here. But no, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like that's That's basically what Henry said was I'm not

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Speaker 1: interested in my wife anymore. I'm interested in someone else. Now.

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Speaker 1: He created an entire new church and religion basically because

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Speaker 1: he wanted to do something else. There's been quite a

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Speaker 1: few figures in history who have done very similar things.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty interesting. Anyway, that's the story. After

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Speaker 1: marrying Anne Boleyn, she gave birth to Elizabeth, and then

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Speaker 1: two and a half years after Elizabeth was born, apparently

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Speaker 1: Henry was getting a little tired, was ready to move

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Speaker 1: on again. He wanted somebody younger. Yeah, or maybe Anne

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Speaker 1: was just too naggy or something, but yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, Henry accuser of adultery and had her

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Speaker 1: put to death. Another character I should mention here is

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Speaker 1: Kat Ashley. Catherine Ashley. She was appointed as Elizabeth Governess

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Speaker 1: when she was four years old, and that's Elizabeth Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: and that was that was a prestigious title, right, like

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Speaker 1: we should be clear it was not just of a princess. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a serious thing. I mean yeah, And she was

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Speaker 1: well educated, Cat, that was. And she taught to Elizabeth astronomy, geography, history, mathematics, French, Italian, Spanish, Flemish.

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Speaker 1: I was I was actually really surprised when I was

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Speaker 1: reading that. I never realized that Elizabeth the First had

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Speaker 1: such a knack for languages. She evidently was really really

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Speaker 1: good at it, which I don't know why they caught

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Speaker 1: me so off guard. But when you start learning languages

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Speaker 1: at form, that's a very good point. That makes a

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Speaker 1: big difference. I think. Yeah, you know, I know I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned this before, but I have a fair number of

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Speaker 1: friends who are very fluent in multiple languages, and all

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Speaker 1: of them, even if they started learning the languages that

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Speaker 1: they're now fluent in, later in life. They all ended

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Speaker 1: they all had bilingual parents basically, so they were raised

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Speaker 1: with that knack, and I think it's something that a

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Speaker 1: lot of kids learn early on. So yeah, if she

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Speaker 1: started learning other languages at four, she was gonna be

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Speaker 1: good at him. Yeah, Elizabeth was pretty smart. Yeah, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: really smart. Cat was important, Yeah, was very important. Well,

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Speaker 1: the person who raises Yeah, she was essentially her mother

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Speaker 1: absolutely because as you know, Henry, well, her stepmothers came

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Speaker 1: and went. It was friendly rapidly, quite a few, it

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Speaker 1: turns out. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean but frankly, even

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Speaker 1: if you know stepmothers managed to stay for even ten

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, it doesn't really matter because the queen at

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Speaker 1: that time isn't nobility, isn't really that involved in raising

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Speaker 1: their kid. That's just how it was then, not really

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Speaker 1: that much. Yeah, so anyway, but the reason I brought

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Speaker 1: up Cat is just that she plays a role in

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Speaker 1: some of these stories. She does. Yeah, back to Henry

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Speaker 1: the Eighth for a little bit. His next wife, Jane Seemer,

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Speaker 1: finally produced a male heir, Edward, who became King Edward

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Speaker 1: the six After Henry died he was nine. He immediately

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Speaker 1: decreed that all candy in England belonged to him. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even now maybe I might be like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: English candies pretty good? Yeah, yeah, they do it pretty well.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately for Edward, he only ruled until he was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: when he died diabetes. Did you know, I don't remember

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Speaker 1: he did not decree that all candy was no. Actually

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Speaker 1: he didn't know he was. He was always very sickly,

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Speaker 1: and he was very He had something with his lungs.

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Speaker 1: He was like pneumonia. He seemed to take on things

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Speaker 1: like that or get that, all the time he had

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Speaker 1: breathing issues. He had a lot of fluid in his

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Speaker 1: lungs because I remember he got sick and it was

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Speaker 1: winter time, and then he started getting better, and then

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Speaker 1: he started getting ill again in the summer when it

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Speaker 1: should have been warm and his lungs should have dried out.

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Speaker 1: And I don't you know, it may be determined at

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Speaker 1: this point exactly what what it was that sunder Trump,

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Speaker 1: but I don't remember what it was, but I know

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Speaker 1: it was basically pneumonia. Probably either that or his half

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Speaker 1: sister Mary poisoned him well, because well, I guess who

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Speaker 1: got to I guess who got the throne? Next Mary,

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Speaker 1: Mary the First. Yeah, not not Mary Queen, well not directly,

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Speaker 1: not immediately. Yeah, there was a little interim period of

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Speaker 1: nine days. Yeah, yeah, there was a little intra period.

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Speaker 1: There was some contention. Uh well, first of all, there's

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Speaker 1: a little contention about Mary the First, whether she was

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Speaker 1: legitimate or not because the marriage had been annulled to

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Speaker 1: her mother and all that stuff. But it was eventually

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Speaker 1: it was all sorted out and Mary got the got

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Speaker 1: the throne in fifteen fifty three and she ruled for

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Speaker 1: five years until fifteen fifty eight what she died. And

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Speaker 1: during this time there were some plots against Mary that

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Speaker 1: Mary and I have involved Elizabeth. I know that these

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Speaker 1: plots that wanted to topple her and put Elizabeth on

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Speaker 1: the throne. But whether Elizabeth Elizabeth actually participated in these

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Speaker 1: it's kind of an open question. And thought that Mary

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Speaker 1: wasn't popular, Now, Mary wasn't that nobody seemed to have

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Speaker 1: really liked her. Yeah, And Elizabeth was younger and prettier,

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Speaker 1: and people just seemed to like her better. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, you know, frankly, it did seem that

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Speaker 1: people didn't like Mary's mother very much. The people seemed

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Speaker 1: to kind of like in at least in my reading.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm not British, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but definitely not fully versed in this this time frame. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to me that people like Anne Boleyn

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Speaker 1: was like the people's wife, people's choice, you know, people

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Speaker 1: really liked her for whatever reason or not. Yeah, kind of,

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Speaker 1: and so they liked Elizabeth more than they really liked

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Speaker 1: any of the other kids. That's what it seemed like

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Speaker 1: to me, at least that's fair. Back to the back

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Speaker 1: to the plots against Mary, Elizabeth spent some time in

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Speaker 1: the Tower of London, I think around a year, and

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Speaker 1: there was actually a question at the time of whether

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Speaker 1: she might get executed or not for her maybe participation

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Speaker 1: in these plots. But against I said, there really wasn't

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Speaker 1: much evidence that he was actually involved in any of them.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking I think Mary probably was reluctant to

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Speaker 1: execute Elizabeth because it had actually been kind of close

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Speaker 1: in childhood. You know, they were only half sisters. They

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Speaker 1: there was kind of a schism between and when she

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Speaker 1: went to the throne, but things they sort of got

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Speaker 1: like colder towards one another. Yeah, Well, I mean they

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Speaker 1: were sisters, and yeah, you know, half sisters or sisters.

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Speaker 1: They were raised together. How old were they at that

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Speaker 1: point too? I mean Mary was quite a bit older

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Speaker 1: than she was, Like it was seven years old, at

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Speaker 1: least seven years old, okay, maybe maybe ten years. But

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Speaker 1: how old was Elizabeth? She wasn't not much older? Was

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Speaker 1: she very younger? You mean, I'm sorry then, um than Edward? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was. I think about the time that Mary took

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Speaker 1: the son, I think Elizabeth was nineteen or twenty yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, not that much older, maybe five four

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Speaker 1: or five years at the most. Yeah, okay, okay, one

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Speaker 1: last little bit of history. Um, the one Elizabeth ascended

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Speaker 1: to the throne, many English Catholics didn't accept her as legitimate,

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Speaker 1: right because Henry is married to Anne, was illegitimate in

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Speaker 1: their eyes, and so she had been a bastard she was, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was a bastard and therefore was not a legitimate

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Speaker 1: heir to the throne. And this time it's believed and

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Speaker 1: Henry the eighth that actually had numerous flame was an

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Speaker 1: affairs and that he actually had he actually had male children.

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Speaker 1: He did, but they couldn't take the throne right because

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Speaker 1: they were all legitimate. Yeah, he seemed to really hold

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Speaker 1: to the standard of I can only bring into the

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Speaker 1: fold and give power to the ones who were officially

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Speaker 1: recognized by marriage. Like it was. He knew everybody knew

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Speaker 1: that he had these kids. It wasn't a secret, but

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Speaker 1: he was the Robert Barathian of But he did not

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Speaker 1: try to also force them in and say I have

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Speaker 1: a boy, this is my boy, this is going to

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Speaker 1: be the king. Except the boy he's a king. Like

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Speaker 1: he didn't do that at all. The tenants were in place,

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Speaker 1: even Henry. Henry pushed the rules and he redefined them

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but he knew that was

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Speaker 1: only so far he could go yeah, yeah, and they

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Speaker 1: think it's hard to say. You know, oh, I um

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Speaker 1: slept with this woman who sleeps with a lot of

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Speaker 1: people one time. Now she suddenly has a son and

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Speaker 1: he's totally going to be the next king of England.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome, everyone. I have no way to know if

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Speaker 1: he's actually my sun or not. That's another good point.

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Speaker 1: You want to make absolutely sure he actually is your son. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which although with easy at that time. Yeah, yeah, back

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Speaker 1: to Elizabeth, you guys totally are but uh you mentioned Mary,

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Speaker 1: Queen of Scott's. Mary Queen of Scott's felt that she

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Speaker 1: did have a better claim to the throne in Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: because it was legitimate though distant, yeah, more distant relation

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Speaker 1: to Henry the eighth, but you know, all legitimate and everything.

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Speaker 1: But she never got any traction on that claim, and

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Speaker 1: eventually she was overthrown in Scotland and wind up taking

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Speaker 1: refuge in England through yourself on Elizabeth Elizabeth's mercy, and

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't refrain from mucking around in a few

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Speaker 1: little plots against Elizabeth, and so in February seven, Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: had her beheaded. Yeah, yeah, although she said at the

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Speaker 1: time that she didn't really mean for her to be beheaded. Yeah. OK,

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Speaker 1: explain how did this go to? She had signed Mary's

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Speaker 1: death warrant, but she told her se Terry not to

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Speaker 1: send it off. But apparently certain other important persons uh

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Speaker 1: either misunderstood the meeting at least one were in it

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Speaker 1: or or I think actually what happened is that it

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Speaker 1: was like the Privy Council was called, you know, without

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth knowing about it, and they decided to well, we've

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Speaker 1: got the death warrant, let's carry it out, and they did. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth was upset about that, or at least she pretended

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Speaker 1: to be. There's some thought some people think that perhaps

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Speaker 1: she wasn't upset about it at all, that she actually

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Speaker 1: was the reason that had happened, and that she just

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Speaker 1: wanted a little plausible deniability. Yeah. Well, I mean Mary

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Speaker 1: would have been a serious threat to have fun, and

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Speaker 1: Mary was quite popular with a lot of some people.

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Speaker 1: She was. But at the same time, I think Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: did not want even though she wanted Mary out of

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Speaker 1: the way permanently, she didn't like the idea of killing royalties.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't. I think she just wasn't. Really, she wasn't

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Speaker 1: a killer at her I mean, though, well, she had

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Speaker 1: a number of people put to death, she did, but

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Speaker 1: she was not afraid. I don't have the sense that

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Speaker 1: she necessarily was in cold blood, you know, thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this person might vaguely want to kill me, so I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have it thout. You know. That doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like that, not at all. Briefly, this is like one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite little period bubbles periods of time, this

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Speaker 1: whole you know, nobility in this era, the Elizabeth not

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Speaker 1: the Elizabethan area as a whole. I mean, yes, that

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Speaker 1: is very interesting to me from a costume designer perspective

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Speaker 1: because it's interesting clothes, but just like the whole little

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Speaker 1: bubble of nobility in this time is like very fascinating

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Speaker 1: to me. So I'm sorry because I know I'm the

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Speaker 1: person who keeps taking a soft track. So we're not

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Speaker 1: even close to getting into the mystery. But maybe Joe

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Speaker 1: will be able to do that now that I've apologized

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Speaker 1: for being the person. I'm sorry. Guys, Scheming and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff is kind of it is kind of fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It's just so interesting. I don't know. I have a

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Speaker 1: hard time keeping everyone because there's always a bazillion player

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Speaker 1: is in these stories and it's always confusing to me,

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Speaker 1: and they always have the same names. Thank you, right.

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Speaker 1: But the other thing that I always cracks me up

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Speaker 1: about this period is everybody romanticizes it and goes on

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Speaker 1: and on and how wonderful it must have been, and

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Speaker 1: I'm always like, are you kidding me? They painted their

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Speaker 1: faces with lead paint. I don't want to look in

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Speaker 1: the streets. I don't want to live Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to live there. We live in a gilded age now,

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Speaker 1: And I'm sorry. When you're in a castle where there's

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Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of vermin running around and the

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Speaker 1: only reason you don't see it is because the maids

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Speaker 1: are sweeping up their droppings every morning, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: spread a bunch of diseases. It's not a time to

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Speaker 1: just be hanging out life then, even yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: just even for nobility. You know, really poor people in

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Speaker 1: America today there are just so much better off materially

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Speaker 1: speaking than royalty was back in those days. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean nobility almost you know, had it almost works

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Speaker 1: off again because you know, it was that whole we

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Speaker 1: got to paint our faces white and it was lead paint,

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Speaker 1: and we've got to do all these things to make

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Speaker 1: ourselves look rich, and they're just poisoning their bodies and horrible.

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Speaker 1: But it's still very fascinating to me. Again, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: we're super off track again. We are, let keep going, okay,

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Speaker 1: speaking about the scheming and everything like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is just the British royal family. But imagine what

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Speaker 1: it would be like to be a member of the

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Speaker 1: Saudi Royal family. Yeah, my god, insane? Right, what about

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Speaker 1: what about like, um, what about getting his calling even.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like there's like a chance that any human

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Speaker 1: being has his d n A right, anyone, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about that, anyone who's descended from mainland China. I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's insane, it's an insane amount. Yeah, he populated that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he was even. Yeah, Well, now that we've just

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Speaker 1: talked about all kinds of naughty business, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: a virgin queen. Let's talk about her. The mystery is

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Speaker 1: did you have a did you have a kid? Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: was never married, and there's been a lot of speculation

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Speaker 1: about why. And I'm not so surprised personally because her

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Speaker 1: mother and her stepmother, Katherine Howard, were both be headed

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Speaker 1: by Henry the Eighth. Yeah, I did not have great

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Speaker 1: stereotype sterriage, did not idyllic idyllic marriage, just didn't have

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Speaker 1: really good prototypes for marriage. It was yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: she just what she saw of marriage was just wasn't good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Her friend Robert Dudley, who will be talking about a

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Speaker 1: little bit, they knew each other since the age of eight,

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Speaker 1: and they were very close all throughout their lives. He

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Speaker 1: said that much later that after the execution of Katherine

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Speaker 1: Katherine Howard did is Elizabeth told him that she would

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Speaker 1: never marry, and you see what she might be a

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Speaker 1: little cynical about the whole marriage thing. But plus also

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Speaker 1: marriage meant having kids, which was dangerous back in those days.

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Speaker 1: As I said, Catherine of Aragon had six kids, three

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Speaker 1: of whom were still born and two who died right

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Speaker 1: after birth. And that's a lot and that was not

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Speaker 1: uncommon at all. That that's a lot of suffering to

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Speaker 1: go through for no results. It really is. And there's

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Speaker 1: I mean, that sounds crass. I understand what you're getting at.

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Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't sound I mean, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: reality of well, but it sounds harsh, but you're right,

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Speaker 1: it is a reality absolutely. I mean, the chances of

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Speaker 1: you dying in childbirth at that time is insane. Not

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Speaker 1: only you know, to give birth to a stillborn child

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Speaker 1: or a child who dies shortly after that, the fact

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Speaker 1: that you might die in childbirth was extremely high. I

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Speaker 1: also wonder if maybe there was a bit of um.

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Speaker 1: She was queen, she was ruling a country, but you know,

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Speaker 1: typically nobility was men. So I almost wonder if you know,

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Speaker 1: she thought if I marry someone, they will suddenly be

387
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Speaker 1: in charge. It's very true. So that could have been

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Speaker 1: part of it as well. And I know she didn't

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Speaker 1: want to share power there. I mean there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons, right, yeah. And another reason was that she

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Speaker 1: had potential suitors amund the Royalty of Europe, one of

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Speaker 1: which as King Philip of Spain, which was Spain at

393
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Speaker 1: that time, was a lot more powerful than Britain, and

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00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 1: it was it was thought that Philip might stage at

395
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Speaker 1: hostile takeover, meaning like an invasion, and eventually eventually the

396
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Speaker 1: Spanish did remember the Spanish Armata, Yeah, well, yeah, they

397
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: were always they were all at war with each other constantly. Yeah, yeah.

398
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,439
Speaker 1: And so but she kind of wanted to keep it

399
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: ambiguous with Philip, you know, like maybe she was because

400
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 1: he was interested in marrying she was keeping yeah, she was, yeah,

401
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: and uh, and so she was just sort of keeping

402
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 1: him put off because he was thinking, hey, if I'm

403
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 1: marry Elizabeth, England's mind without having to fire a shot,

404
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: and I got ninety nine problems for England eight one,

405
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: you guess. So, so Elizabeth was actually able to forestall

406
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Speaker 1: war by doing this, by not marrying. Yeah, yeah, but

407
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: she did it for the good of England. Yeah she was, yeah, yeah, yeah.

408
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: Of course, of course, eventually Philip did get tired of waiting,

409
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Speaker 1: a war did break out, and there was that whole

410
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Speaker 1: defeat of the Spanish Armata, which was one of Elizabeth

411
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: smell spectacular successes. Of course, some bad weather played a

412
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: big part in that too. Yeah. So, so a lot

413
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Speaker 1: of the question about a lot of people think, wow,

414
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Speaker 1: it's so mysterious she didn't marry and that figures into

415
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: some other mysteries too, by the way, which we'll be

416
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: talking about. But it's possible, it's understandable, okay. So okay,

417
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: so our mystery is did she have a child? So

418
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Speaker 1: how are we going to approach this? What's what's what? What?

419
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Speaker 1: Or how do you want to organize this? Joe, Well,

420
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Speaker 1: I thought what I would do is I would list

421
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Speaker 1: the list some of the guys that it's rumored that

422
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: she had babies with a baby, at least at least

423
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Speaker 1: one baby with yeah, and there are several candidates for that,

424
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: and then we'll just talk about how plausible it is

425
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: that something happened, and then maybe we'll talk about who

426
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: might be children of yea, let's talk about possible fathers.

427
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: The first one here, Yeah, okay, and these are just

428
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: the ones that people believe. Maybe the one and the

429
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: first candidate is Thomas Seymour. After the death of Henry

430
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 1: the Eighth, his widow at that time, that was his

431
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: last wife, Katherine Parr, waited about six months and yeah,

432
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: so she married Thomas Seymour. And that's a different Thomas

433
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: Seymour than might be related to that James Seymour that

434
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: that gave birth to James the six. I think that

435
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: they're not. I thought they I thought that they were

436
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: distantly related, like cousins or something like that. Again, why

437
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: I get so confused when we talked about these stories

438
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: again they all have the same name. Yeah, I wish,

439
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: you know, we need to do to the studios. We

440
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: need to just paint that wall with a chalkboard material

441
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: and then we can just you can and we'll use

442
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: dry race. Yeah that's a good idea. Actually, yeah, but yeah,

443
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: it got to the point where this is so convoluted.

444
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: I stopped trying to, like, you know, figure out who exactly,

445
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: you know, what the relationship between all these people was.

446
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: I know you did work with it, but it is

447
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: it gets out of hand. Oh yeah, So Seymour Thomas Seymour.

448
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: So she remarried, and then Elizabeth came to live with

449
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour for a while, I think

450
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: about ten months. She was fourteen at that time. Yeah,

451
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: I think, a blooming woman. Yeah possibly. Yeah. Well, anyway,

452
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: apparently Thomas took a big interest in her and had

453
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: to have it showing up in Elizabeth's bedrooms, you know,

454
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: like early in the morning and for alicking with her

455
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: and tickling her and stuff like that, for quote unquote

456
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: tickling sessions. Yeah. So I don't know how Elizabeth felt

457
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: about this. She might have been flattered by the attention,

458
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: or maybe she was annoyed or maybe a little creeped out.

459
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: Maybe she was really into it, and this is why

460
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: he's he could potentially be the first man who has

461
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: shown any attention to her, so that that would be

462
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: the argument for maybe she actually wasn't put off by it,

463
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 1: or you know, or he was in a position of

464
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: power in her life and she was didn't feel like

465
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: she was in a place to deny what he was doing. Yeah,

466
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: that was she Maybe it might have felt a little

467
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: bit too handed on. Yeah, I mean, they had opened

468
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: their home to her. She was an orphan. She was

469
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 1: an orphan, and she was living in a style that

470
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: she was maybe not necessarily accustomed to. And you know,

471
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: they were they were being kind to her, and so

472
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: she thought, well, they're they're being nice to me, so

473
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: I can't say no. And but that's what the situation was.

474
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: Katherine Parr was apparently undisturbed by this behavior at first,

475
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: but apparently kat Ashley was not cool with it at all.

476
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: But Katherine had participated, She had participated a few times

477
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: in these tickling sessions. I can only imagine that Katherine

478
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: didn't so much like Elizabeth, if only because she was

479
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: an earlier child of her past husband's right, So yeah,

480
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: maybe she didn't, but she liked her enough to take

481
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: her in, so that was nice of her. But but

482
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: apparently she decided that it would be best for Elizabeth

483
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: to go live elsewhere. So apparently she decided, for some

484
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: reason or another, she wasn't cool with Elizabeth and her

485
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: husband being under the same roof. So I don't know

486
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 1: that anything ever actually happened, but we also don't know

487
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: that nothing happened. We also don't know that either Elizabeth

488
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: left the household in May at age fourteen, So there

489
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: was that ten month period in which something could have happened.

490
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: And what's the timeline after that? Is there kind of

491
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: some unaccounted for time in Elizabeth's timeline after that? No,

492
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: there was never any period where she was like out

493
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: of sight or anything like that where she could have

494
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: just been like invisible. But this obviously, in this period

495
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: of her life, she was an Yeah, she was a

496
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: lot less in the public eye, and so it's conceivable

497
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: she could have gone off somewhere and had a baby somewhere,

498
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: especially at thirteen or fourteen. It's not as though it's

499
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: not unusual in those days, not even unusual these days actually,

500
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, But and then of course the offspring of

501
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: this liaison was, according to the series, not other than

502
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: William Shakespeare. I'm not sure if it's the same William Shakespeare,

503
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: because Seymour died inte and shakes to be right. As

504
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: far as I know, I was born in fifteen sixty four.

505
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: But you don't know who Shakespeare was. It's hard to say.

506
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: And actually I'm not sure exactly what year he was born,

507
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: because nobody actually has his actual date of birth. Nobody

508
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: actually knows who Shakespeare was. Yeah, he was born, and

509
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: he was not born. He was baptized in fifteen sixty four,

510
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: as William Shakespeare I believe. So yeah, well, and and

511
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, in those days, even a hundred years ago,

512
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: that whole baptism thing, the whole birth record thing was

513
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: kind of just whenever you felt like it. You know,

514
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: I have family just a generation ago that they say, oh, yeah,

515
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: this is my birthday because that's when mom wrote it

516
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: in the Bible. My grandfather in fact, found out when

517
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: he lifted in the army that he was a year

518
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: older than he thought he was. Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean,

519
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: I mean it happens pretty recently, so and that in

520
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: those days it could have totally happened. Oh yeah, So okay,

521
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: but here's here's my thing with this Thomas Dudley bit

522
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: oh I guess I should, yeah, And I want to

523
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: add I also agreed it's not good. Okay, Okay. So

524
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: the thing is, we haven't said, by the way, he

525
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 1: was forty years old at this time. Yeah, older in

526
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: her thirty nine or forty, depending on exactly when everything

527
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: went down. But my problem with the whole she was

528
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: pregnant with his child is today it's it's possible for

529
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: girls to get pregnant as early as twelve or thirteen.

530
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: But there's there's the stuff about there's the sexual maturity

531
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: is coming earlier based on diet. Have you ever read

532
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: any of this stuff? Yes, okay, well you were looking

533
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: at me like I was crazy. The reason I'm looking

534
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: at you like you're crazy is because it's not unreasonable

535
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: to think that in that time a girl who was

536
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen years old would be pregnant. See, but

537
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: I don't know the way I interpreted things. I took

538
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: it as actually the norm for reproductive age was more

539
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: in line with sixteen. But that's not to say that

540
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: it's not possible. At what we're talking, rabbit test is

541
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: possible as well. If we're say whatever is in the

542
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: realm of possible. What's he talking about modern days? Like

543
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: puberty coming very early for girls. We're talking like nine

544
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: and ten, not like thirteen and fourteen. That's a normal

545
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: time for people to be hitting puber So even in

546
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: those days, thirteen and fourteen totally normal for somebody to

547
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: be getting pregnant. We're talking like these days. Okay, maybe

548
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm a misunderstanding what I read,

549
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: but the stuff you're really reading average. Oh yeah, And

550
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: that's the thing is that I'm looking at the average.

551
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm not calling her an exception to the norm. I'm

552
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: saying on average, that's a pretty tall order, fourteen to

553
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: sixteen given two years. But no, I totally hear what

554
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: you're saying. But yeah, but she was She was fourteen

555
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: when she left, so I think she was old enough.

556
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: I really do, because I don't know me and Juliet's

557
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: the one I would go too. But well, but I'm

558
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: written by William Shakespeare. Maybe it was inspired by his mother,

559
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: who got pregnant at sixteen or thirteen. Yeah, there's that's

560
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: a whole another mystery, which well, I don't know if

561
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: we'll ever tackle or not. Was Shakespeare was Shakespeare? Yeah, yeah,

562
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: but that does seem like Shakespeare is involved in this

563
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: quite a bit, in this whole Elizabeth thing. Yeah. Well,

564
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: the other thing that I was gonna say is that

565
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: Seymour like all of this stuff with him mucking about

566
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: with Elizabeth, Well it feels wrong, and he exhibited some

567
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: really questionable behavior. But he got his head cut off

568
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: the next year because he was in some plot and

569
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: he was sneaking into the King's residence and he set

570
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: off one of the dogs, and rather than like a

571
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: normal person just running away, he shot the dog and

572
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: made a big to do and then got out. Like

573
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: the guy had really bad judgment all the way around.

574
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: So I like, I I questioned whether he was just

575
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: several screws loose and that's why he was messing with her,

576
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: or if it was really some weirdo power play. The

577
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: whole thing just just smells really off to me. It

578
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: was a little off, and it feels really convenient. Yes, right, Yeah,

579
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: some of these feel like, okay, maybe maybe that's a

580
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: legit theory, but a lot of them feel kind of like, well,

581
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: that's very convenient that that would have happened at that time,

582
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, so what let's rule him out. Although I

583
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: gotta say that this is a period that I considered

584
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: the most likely because it was before she ascended to

585
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: the throne, so she would have been out of the

586
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: public eye and it would have been easy for her

587
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: to just kind of in nine months, it would have

588
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: been easier. I mean, I still think it would have

589
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: been pretty much impossible to keep it secret. Well, there

590
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: is a way that it could have been kept secret,

591
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: you kill everybody who knows about it. No. No, she

592
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: never brought the child to term, though it was illegal

593
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: and highly frowned upon. Abortions did happen. So it is

594
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: possible that she abhor did the child. And it's also possible,

595
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: based on practices of it at the time, that that

596
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: could have rendered her sterile, which is why she didn't

597
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: never had a kid again and maybe why she chose

598
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: not to have sex again. Yeah. This, this was this

599
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: was not awesome. Don't don't really like that? Thanks? No,

600
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: not doing that again. Yeah, it might be. It might

601
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: be that if she was truly molested by by Thomas Seymour,

602
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: than maybe that kind of turned her off in the

603
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: whole thing exactly. Yeah, so there's a very plausible answer,

604
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: though again I consider Seymour, you know, not a good

605
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: valid um candidate. Yeah, there are a lot of possible

606
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: reasons afterwards. Uh. Yeah. That One reason I don't really

607
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: buy into him as a father is that after she

608
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: left Katherine Parr's household, they still maintain a very friendly correspondence,

609
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: which I think it would be kind of wouldn't you

610
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: think it would be unlikely if Katherine, if her husband

611
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: had impregnated Elizabeth. Do you think she would not be

612
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: feeling all that friendly towards her. I would say that

613
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: that would kind of chill the relationship. Yeah. Yeah, apparently

614
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: had a good relationship, so probably not Thomas. Next on

615
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: our list Robert Dudley, Earl of Lester. And for those

616
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: of you are not British, this is spelled its spelled Leicester,

617
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: but this pronounced Leicester. I really we gotta, we gotta

618
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: start a campaign. You either start adding vowels and continents

619
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: consonants to town names in general just to repeat this pattern,

620
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: or lobby all of England to change the spelling. I'm

621
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: obviously going to marry Prince Harry when I'm queen, I'll

622
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: lobby for that. He married yet he's waiting for me.

623
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: We were talking about Robert Dudley. One of my one

624
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: of my favorite English town names is Dull and it's

625
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: actually spelled the way it's pronounced d u l l.

626
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: And they're the ones that had these sister city relationship

627
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: with the town of Boring, Oregon. Yeah, of course they did, right,

628
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: and these two towns really do exist. Okay, I will

629
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: do an episode about that. Robert Dudley and Elizabeth had

630
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: known each other since they were eight years old. And

631
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: as I said, they were the best of friends, and

632
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people suspected at the time that they

633
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,919
Speaker 1: were lovers because they were so close and Elizabeth Shower

634
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: were childhood friends. Oh yeah, and so and so, especially

635
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: one year royalty. And people are always trying to stab

636
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: you in the back. It's probably not that many people

637
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: that you can really trust. So that's gotta have something

638
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: you would think of friends since you were eight you

639
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: probably could trust. Yeah, somebody who's never who's never done

640
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: you wrong, and everything like that. And I think he

641
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: was trustworthy and she she showered lots lots of favors

642
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: on him, and and and of course made everybody think

643
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: that they were lovers. Yeah, that did. Yeah, And there

644
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: was lots of other I will get into every little detail,

645
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: but there was lots lots of reasons. But yeah, he

646
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: benefited quite a bit by his relationship with Elizabeth, financially

647
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: and otherwise. And of course Elizabeth was certainly was intensely

648
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: grief stricken when he died, from the kind of grief

649
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: that you would that you would show display when we

650
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: lost somebody really close to you. Maybe a lover, yeah,

651
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: but maybe a friend. I mean what could be could

652
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: be that too. You know, if you have a true

653
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: intense friend since you're eight, that person is your family.

654
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, definitely, and especially when the actual members

655
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: of your family are either like you know, dead or

656
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: they're off like marrying a new stepmother. Oh yeah, so

657
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: courting your cousin. Yeah, he was probably a more family

658
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: like you said, and there was talk that they might

659
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: potentially get married. But there was one hitch because Dudley

660
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: was married himself. He married a woman named Amy Robesarte

661
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing that correctly in fifteen fifty, and then she

662
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: fell down some stairs at her home in fifteen sixty

663
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: and broke her neck, which did clear the way for

664
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and Robert Dudley to marry, which is handy. Yeah,

665
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: but people considered it to be an assassination. Yeah. There

666
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation that that Robert Dudley had her,

667
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: had had her murdered, just so he could marry Elizabeth,

668
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: and so he was very unpopular in England for a time,

669
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: actually for quite quite a long time because of that.

670
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: Although personally I don't think he did it. That she

671
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: had another mystery and you'll read the occasional article in

672
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: Britain about it, you know, the unsolved mystery of her

673
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: death and all that stuff. But the fact of the

674
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: matter is that she had she had like advanced cancer

675
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: at the time she died, so there was there was

676
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: no reason for him to murder her at all. It

677
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: was a matter of time. Yeah, yeah, okay, we'll put

678
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: that mystery down. But even without being married to Robert Dudley,

679
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they couldn't have, you know, done the

680
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: deed and had kids, or at least eight kid Some

681
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: of some of the proposed offspring were Francis Bacon, france

682
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: Is Bacon. Bacon, Yes, I know, Francis Bacon. How do

683
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: you like that French? Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually you could

684
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: be worse things. Yeah, absolutely, Bacon's pretty well liked Bacon.

685
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. Yeah, they anyway, Francis Bacon. Of course,

686
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: many people believe was maybe really William Shakespeare here he

687
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: rears his ugly head again in here. So at this

688
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: time Elizabeth would have been twenty eight. She would have

689
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: been on the stone for three years. So I don't know,

690
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: and we're coming. I know where Joe was going with this,

691
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: which is a hard part of hiding it, Yeah, hiding

692
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: a pregnancy. Yeah, well we'll talk about that in a second, though,

693
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: we can talk Yeah, I know what, we'll talk about it.

694
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: Let me just toss a few more out there. Robert Devereaux,

695
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: the second Earl of Essex. When Devereaux came onto the scene,

696
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: he and Elizabeth became besties. And yeah, they were really

697
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: close and some of the even said some of some

698
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: people have speculated that they were actually lovers, like even

699
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: though he was quite a bit younger than her, significantly

700
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: significantly younger. Yeah, but other people have said that they

701
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: had more like a kind of a mother's son relationship

702
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: and they were really close. So if it had been

703
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 1: deverea oh, then she would have been thirty two years

704
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: old when he was born. Some of the reasons I

705
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: think people suspect him of this is he he was

706
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: kind of a bad actor sometimes. I mean, they had

707
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: they had a good relationship, but he was kind of

708
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: a loose cannon. And didn't he get himself killed well

709
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: by Elizabeth, Yes, she executed him finally, Yeah, because he

710
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: kept doing stupid stuff, yeah, exactly, and so eventually she

711
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: felt she hadn't choice. And I suppose it's possible that

712
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 1: a mother would have her her son executed. Ye, sounds

713
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: kind of unlikely. Well, but he did some read she

714
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: kept giving him military commissions and he kept no showing,

715
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: which is a huge no no, Like, just show up

716
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: and stay in the tent for God's sake. Yeah, and

717
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: just you know, and in the end you got involved

718
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: in a plot you know again which you know, against

719
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: your own mother. Huh. Maybe don't do that. Of course,

720
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: maybe he didn't know that he was actually her son,

721
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: but I still find it hard to believe that she

722
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: would do that rather than just like have him locked

723
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: up permanently in the tower as yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's

724
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: talk about another candidate, who was Arthur Dudley. Dudley showed

725
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: up in the court of Philip with Spain in seven

726
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: and claimed to be the son of Robert Dudley and

727
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: Elizabeth he said. He said that he was raised unaware

728
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: of this by a guy named Robert Southern, who told

729
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: him on his deathbed who he really was, and Dudley

730
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: fled the country, he said, because he was afraid that

731
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: Elizabeth agents would murder him to keep the secret that

732
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: he now knew, which makes no sense. Yeah, now, if

733
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: they were going to kill you. They'd have killed you

734
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: a long time ago. Well, they have no idea when

735
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: you were told the truth. Well, the only guy, the

736
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: only guy who knew was the guy who told him,

737
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: who died immediately afterwards, Robert Southern. So he just kept

738
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: his mouth shut. He was perfectly safe. Yeah. Yeah, so

739
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much of that makes sense. Arthur

740
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: Dudley did actually exist. Their strong evidence at least that

741
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: he did. There's there's mention of even the records in

742
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's court that they were aware that he showed up

743
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: at Philip's court in Spain. The thing that though he

744
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: showed up in the cord, it's really suspected that he

745
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: wasn't really who he said. He wasn't. By that, I mean,

746
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: he wasn't. He may not have actually been Arthur Dudley

747
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: because there were spies everywhere, and it seems like there's

748
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: some research that indicates it he was a spy who

749
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: really stuck to his story. It would not let it go.

750
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: That is what a lot of people believed at the

751
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: time time. Yeah, so it's uh, it's I don't know

752
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: too many people to take this guy seriously. I mean,

753
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: he was he wasn't around it. He did make these claims,

754
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: but he was probably just an impostor. And when do

755
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: we know, um, when would he have how old was he?

756
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: When't we have been born? He would have been born? Well,

757
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: it depending. I've heard various estimates, but based on his age,

758
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: it was it was estimated that he was about twenty five,

759
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: I think, and that he would have been born maybe

760
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty one. And uh so in summer fifteen

761
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: sixty one, there was one significant thing, which was that

762
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was ill. She got she had this spell where

763
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: she came down with edema, which is swelling of the tissues.

764
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,439
Speaker 1: And at the time right exactly, and maybe she could

765
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: have been pregnant, you know, she was bedridden and all that.

766
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: And then so this is also around and sorry, how

767
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: old would she have been? She would have been twenty eight? Okay,

768
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I at that as as someone who

769
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: is currently twenty eight years old. At that time, that

770
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: seems like it would be late to be pregnant. Yeah,

771
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: in that day and age, that seems like a late pregnancy. Yeah,

772
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 1: we're talking. You know, people are getting pregnant of fifteen,

773
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen, maybe as early as thirteen fourteen. Maybe you know,

774
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: to carry a baby to term and have it be

775
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: healthy and survive. It's not unheard of, certainly it's not

776
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: unheard of, but it seems it's the older you get,

777
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: the harder it is. Well, yeah, I mean I understand,

778
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: and with modern medicine it's like fine, But at those

779
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: times when we were like, hey, yeah, leeches, that will

780
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: solve your problem, no problem, yeah, or what was it

781
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: they were given they would give mothers during or after

782
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: childbirth or got did you guys know that just recently? Yeah,

783
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: here's yeah, no problem. Yeah, no, you're gonna be good.

784
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: It's some old it's fine. I know your body thinks

785
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: that that's poison and which anyway, Yeah, that's that's why

786
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff was like like alcohol, for example,

787
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: it makes you feel better, it makes you good. Good, Yeah,

788
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: it's really kind of poison. So and things like like

789
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: blood letting and stuff like, well it happened the blood

790
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: pressure drop would make you high and would make you

791
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: light headed and feel you would think that's fine, and

792
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: then and they concluded, hey, you know this must be

793
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: beneficial because they report feeling better, and so yeah, it's possible.

794
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: It's totally possible. And the fact that she was sick

795
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 1: with dropsy, which you know, bedridden for a couple of months, swollen,

796
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: I hear it. Yeah, maybe she was pregnant. I don't know.

797
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: Let's let's go go on for our next Well, I'm sorry,

798
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: just quickly. Wasn't that about at the same time that

799
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: Francis Bacon was? Yeah, it was born too. Yeah, so

800
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: make sure. So it was either Francis Bacon A. K.

801
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: Shakespeare or was Arthur Deadley or neither one? Neither, Yeah,

802
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: or she actually just had a demon. Yeah, probably that's

803
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: what it was. I mean, I can I can't imagine.

804
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I know a demon causes swelling, but that

805
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: would be a lot of swelling, you know what I

806
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: mean to be actual pregnancy sized. I mean, I I

807
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: every woman carries a pregnancy different and uh, you know,

808
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,959
Speaker 1: I've seen pictures of people who I like, didn't believe

809
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: are pregnant, who are like nine months pregnant. And I've

810
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: also seen pictures of people who are nine months pregnant

811
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: that I think, like, you're just obese. It's hard to tell.

812
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: It's just it's hard to tell. Everybody cares a pregnancy differently,

813
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: and if you've got all these corsets and you're kind

814
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: of bedridden and people are thinking, oh, you're sick, it's possible.

815
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not willing to discount it. Yeah, okay, well,

816
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 1: let's go on to our next suspect, who was Edward

817
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: de Vere seventeenth Earl of Oxford, who of course, was

818
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: also rumored to be William Shakespeare. I know, I know,

819
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know. I mean, there's a whole huge

820
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 1: community out there people who are or were arguing back

821
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: and forth on it. This guy was Shakespeare, this guy

822
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: was Shakespeare. They have all kinds of theories and evidence

823
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: and everything, and again that may be an episode in there.

824
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: Who you never know, I don't know. I mean, we're

825
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: gonna have to get some serious scholarly work done if

826
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna do that. I mean, these guys are these

827
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: guys are hardcore. I mean, these guys aren't just guys.

828
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: Aren't read it or anything like that. They're writing books

829
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: about yeah, slamming read it. But yeah, this is a

830
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: little more scholarly. But anyway, back to our thing, the

831
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: offspring of Oxford and Elizabeth would have been a guy

832
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: named Henry Ry Osley, who was born in fifteen seventy three,

833
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: And I don't know whatever I want on to happen

834
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: to Henry, but there's not much out there on him.

835
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: But at this time, Elizabeth would have had to have

836
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: been about forty, which causes me a little bit of

837
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 1: doubt that forty seriously at that a and there's now

838
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: even now it's tough to get pregnant forty. Yeah, yeah,

839
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: So the problem I have with all these series is

840
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: that is it again, this all took place after ascended

841
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: to the throne except the first one. The except for

842
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: the first one was with Thomas. So it's like imagining

843
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: it would have been a little easier than it's, say,

844
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: Princess Diana going about her everyday business pregnant, not having

845
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: a paparazzi not notice it. But still there's a lot

846
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: of people around. There would have had to been people

847
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 1: attending to her childbirth and stuff like that. So somebody

848
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: you would think would have talked. Do you think after Yeah,

849
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: at least after the fact, you would think, you you

850
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: can understand maybe while she was alive, you know, you're

851
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: keeping somebody rich there there's no reason to talk. But yeah,

852
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a good reason not to make the

853
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: queen mad but running your mouth. But at the same time,

854
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: a lot of people would have written it down in

855
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: their memoirs or their diaries, their journals that would have

856
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: been mentioned of it. I wanted to talk about one

857
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: more suspect for a father, which was a guy named

858
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: Miles Stafford, and he has very recently been put forward

859
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: by a guy named Seth Margolis who published a novel

860
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: called The Simpers on It. I don't think it's too

861
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: much of a spoiler to reveal this, but but does

862
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: have a child very early in the book. And again

863
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: much I want to I want to clarify is a

864
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: work of fiction. But Seth did a ton of research.

865
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: He did a lot of research for this book. Uh yeah,

866
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: and so, uh let me give you a quick rundown

867
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: of the plot. Our protagonist is a woman named Lee Nichols.

868
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: So she's discovered a previously unknown sonnet by William Shakespeare.

869
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: When she goes public with it, all hell breaks loose

870
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: and she finds out that some people really really want

871
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: that sonnet for reasons you'll discover if you read the book.

872
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: Uh So, anyway, it's it's it's a fun it's a

873
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: fun read. Seth. We actually were able to get ahold

874
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 1: of him. He was. He was kind enough to actually

875
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: answer some questions about Elizabeth and his research and uh

876
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: and his book, and so let's talk to Seth here

877
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: for a second. So Seth, thanks for thanks for talking

878
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: to us. We really appreciate it. And I guess my

879
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: first question for you is that you have found a

880
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: new potential father for a child that Elizabeth might have

881
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: had named Miles Stafford. So did Myles really exist? And

882
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: already say, it's okay, it was much. I found it

883
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: much more interesting to invent him and then dispatch him quickly.

884
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: You never really hear from him other than that he

885
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: had um this rare genetic disorder that passed on the

886
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: this um tendency to shivering, as someone calls it in

887
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: the book, which was an interesting um sort of way

888
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: to keep his sort of lineage alive. Was you know,

889
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: not in a particularly positive way. Um. It also made it,

890
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, when you're writing a thriller, it made it

891
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: interesting because you know, when the uh Lee Nicholson, the

892
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: twenty first century heroin of the book, would come across

893
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 1: various locations where the Filer family lived Um, she would seat,

894
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: for instance, two fireplaces in one room and realized, you know,

895
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: that became an indication that these people who lived there

896
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: had a real obsession with staying warm. So that's the

897
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: one thing that that I had my fictional father of

898
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: the of the Elizabeth than offspring um pass on to

899
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: his to his descendants um. And of course the name

900
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 1: filer you know, as you know because you read the book,

901
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: it's full of wordplay and the you know, the word

902
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: filer um is an adaptation of the French word feast

903
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: for son and e er of course for Elizabeth Rex

904
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: and French was the main language spoken at the time

905
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: of her version of it in the Elizabethan court. So

906
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, it was interesting or likely

907
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: that she would have had, if she had a child,

908
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: might have given him that name just as a sort

909
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: of sly reference to who his his at least his

910
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: mother was. So in real life one candidate for a

911
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: child was Elizabeth. That's really popular with a lot of people,

912
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 1: as Robert Devereau, what do you think about as a suspect,

913
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: and right, he was one of several people that she

914
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: sort of showered her um royal pleasures on in ways

915
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: that that um mystified people at the time, you know,

916
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: why him, and so there were always rumors and she did,

917
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: she did have a very close relationship with his father,

918
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley, also known as m Lester, And you know,

919
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: I think she had his bedroom moved next to hers,

920
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: and you know, there are all sorts of so you know,

921
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: if if there was going to be an offspring, it

922
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: would have been most likely with him, and there was

923
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: actually there was someone named Arthur Dudley who surfaced at

924
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: one point who claimed to be the offspring of the

925
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: two of them shut up at Philip of Spain's place. Yeah,

926
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: because the Catholics never never saw her as a legitimate

927
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: well as legitimate period, but as a legitimate monarch of England.

928
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: So if they could find any sort of scandal that

929
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: would um you know, add further illegitimacy to her, it

930
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: would work to their ends. And in fact, in my book,

931
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that she um disguises the

932
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: fact that she had a child, was that it would

933
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: just it would imperil her her claim to the throne.

934
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: And of course in the Samprasan, she has the child

935
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: before she becomes queen most of the rumors about or

936
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: the theories about her having a child have her having

937
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: the childs while she was queen, and and there's and

938
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: as I said, there's so many of them. You know,

939
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: she at one point, um, she she took to her

940
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 1: bed she had some sort of mysterious illness on which

941
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: I think they called at the time dropsy, but today

942
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: we would call it a demon, which is the swelling

943
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: in the mid section. So of course if you, um,

944
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 1: and I think that's pretty much historical fact that she had,

945
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: that she was taken to her bed with dropsy or

946
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: a demon, and that she had a swollen abdomen. So

947
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: if you're inclined to think that she had a child,

948
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: this might have been a good time for that child

949
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: to have been carried, because she had you know, she

950
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: could have used that as an excuse to to disguise

951
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: her pregnancy. The last question, You've got a lot more

952
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: research on this really than we have, And so I

953
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: guess i'd like to know, do you really think Elizabeth

954
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 1: had a child? You know, I don't know. I would

955
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: suspect not. I tend to be a discounter of conspiracy theories, um,

956
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: And so you know, it was a really intriguing idea

957
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: for a novel, And there are bits and pieces of

958
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: her life and the circumstances around it that might lead

959
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: you to think she had a child. Um but I

960
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: tend to think she didn't. But you know, I think

961
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, you know, if you think about

962
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination. Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist in general,

963
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: so I think Lee Harry as Oswald acted alone. But

964
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people just feel that it's it's just

965
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: unthinkable that this great man, who was so beloved at

966
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: the time and maybe even more so in retrospect, could

967
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: be brought down by one lunatic with good aim. You

968
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: wanted to be a conspiracy because it seems unfitting that

969
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: such a great person could be eliminated by such a nobody.

970
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: With Elizabeth, there's a similar frustration that arguably the greatest

971
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: certainly the greatest monarch and in English history, and maybe

972
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: one of the great leaders in world history, just and

973
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: you know her her line ended with her death and

974
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: the tutors were no more, her genes were no more.

975
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: How could that be? It just it doesn't seem fitting somehow, um,

976
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,760
Speaker 1: So people constantly want her to um to have left

977
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: something behind um and and in the way, that's the

978
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the fascination with her in general,

979
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: and it's and it's certainly the reason that a lot

980
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: of these theories continue to flourish. And it's really the

981
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: reason I wrote the book. It said, I tend to

982
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: think you're probably right. I think that it's unlikely. Like

983
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: you say, people just can't accept it. And people love

984
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: to speculate about royalty. That's just a major sport here

985
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: in America and Europe here. Yeah, well we do. It's

986
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: British royalty is a lot of people seem to worship

987
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: those people. Anyway. Thanks, thanks again to Seth for talking

988
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: to us his book. If you care to pick it

989
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: up and read it, it's called The Snappers on It

990
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: little book. Oh yeah, it's fun read. Uh. Now back

991
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: to our mystery for a second. Here. There's one other

992
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: permutation of this, which is that she didn't have a

993
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: child because she couldn't have a child because she was

994
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: actually a guy. Oh god, yeah, yeah, Okay, I'm gonna

995
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: let your own with this movie because I want to

996
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: have a heyday with it. I just want to let

997
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: you tell the story because this one is so outlandish

998
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: to me. It is, it is, but it's crazy. It's

999
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: funny to me because it's so crazy. This story actually

1000
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: has a pretty good pedigree, though you know that. It's

1001
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: sometimes called the Busley Boy, and it begins with Bram Stoker,

1002
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: who you may have heard of if you haven't heard

1003
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: of him. And he's the guy who wrote Tracula, which

1004
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: is yeah, which book. Yeah, it is actually a pretty

1005
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: influential book when you think about it. It's got some bite.

1006
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: Stoker claim the story isn't actually not something he made up,

1007
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: but it actually originated in the village of Busley in Gloucestershire,

1008
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: which is where he heard the original story from the locals,

1009
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: and he wrote about in a book called Famous Impostors,

1010
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: which he published in nine So, according to Stoker's story,

1011
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was sent to Busiley in fifteen forty three or

1012
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: fifteen forty four. Dates are a little vague due to

1013
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 1: a plague outbreak in London, and I checked in. There

1014
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: was some plague at loose in London at that time,

1015
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: although it was not the Great Plague which was the

1016
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: one that really slaughtered a lot of people. But ironically

1017
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 1: and busily she got sick and died anyway, and her

1018
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: governess Cat Ashley, remember her, learned that Henry the eighth

1019
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: was on his way for a visit. So what to do?

1020
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: This is kind of actually kind of like a sitcom.

1021
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: You know, you've been you're taking care of your friends,

1022
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: Cat and killed you find the duplicate, wasn't there? I

1023
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: didn't Cramer pull that once or something on Seinfeld. Yeah,

1024
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: that's it's that's a well recycled plot line. Yeah, it is.

1025
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: So Cat come the village looking for a little girl

1026
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: who looks similar to Elizabeth. Then couldn't find anybody. And

1027
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, isn't that weird? And some

1028
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: people who come around looking at your kids saying can

1029
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: we borrow your kid for like a couple of decades

1030
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: for the royal Yeah, that would have been that would

1031
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: have been tricky. But then she had an idea. There

1032
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: was this little boy who lived nearby, and Elizabeth actually

1033
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: been playing with him somewhat and he was thin and

1034
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 1: pale and about the same size and had reddish hair

1035
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: like Liz. And so she had this idea that, well,

1036
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: we'll swap We'll swap the little boy and we'll dress

1037
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: him in girl's clothes, and Henry will be totally fooled.

1038
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 1: And so Henry is an idiot. Yeah, and of course

1039
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: he was fooled because he's an idiot. Yeah. And uh,

1040
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: the other question, he didn't notice the hair die. Yeah.

1041
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: What I'm when I'm curious about is a ram Stoker.

1042
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: I'll take his word for it and be honestly, was

1043
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: told this story. But how had they kept this for centuries?

1044
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: And he said that they were so isolated that the

1045
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: story just never got out. That's what he actually wrote.

1046
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: I read that. I read part of his famous Impostors book.

1047
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense to me, but okay, yeah, yeah,

1048
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah, well anyway, here's here. Here are bram

1049
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: Stoker's reasons why it probably is true. Number when Elizabeth

1050
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: was very secretive. She seemed to have a big secret

1051
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: because some people said, uh number two. She was very

1052
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: close to her inner circle, just several people. She treated

1053
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: them all very favorably, kept them all close, and that

1054
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: was probably her way. I'm sorry we debunking this now.

1055
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 1: Yet she refused to marry. There were rumors that she

1056
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: couldn't bear children. There was apparently, he says, I had

1057
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: no way of checking this. I didn't. There was that

1058
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 1: correspondence between Elizabeth and Catherine Parr. Apparently that the style

1059
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: of those letters changed after this, after this. Uh. And

1060
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: one of her teachers felt that she was way too

1061
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: smart and clear thinking to be a woman. I'm just

1062
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm actually offended by that. And this is

1063
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 1: like thousands of years later, and I am offended thousands. Yeah,

1064
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: tack it up with Bram. Just keep going. I am

1065
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: obviously not a man, so I am not as smart

1066
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: and clear thinking well as queen. Can I point something out?

1067
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: Hundreds Steve and I always sell her mystery, don't actually, Joe,

1068
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: can I point something out? Only you ever solved the mystery? Wait? Wait,

1069
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: wait wait, can I point something out? Joe's a liar?

1070
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: He never saw Alright, fine, let's get back here. Let's see.

1071
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: She had a large wig collection, which obviously she was

1072
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: probably using to cover up exactly, That's why I have them. Yeah.

1073
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: She had only a few regular doctors, and she refused

1074
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: to ever see any other doctors because they're going to

1075
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: find out that guess what, she's got something going on

1076
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: down there. Uh. And she also insisted that no autopsy

1077
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: would be done after her death. So okay, all those

1078
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: good reasons. Yeah, but on the other hand, it's still

1079
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: hard to believe Henry the eighth was session idiot that

1080
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: he wouldn't notice that while while the Royalty didn't spend

1081
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: all day every day with their child, they wouldn't know

1082
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: what their child looked like. So yeah, that's a difficult one. Yeah,

1083
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: and and and frankly, you know, it's it's a really

1084
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: big gamble because you've got to hope you've not only

1085
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: found yourself a little boy who sort of resembles Elizabeth,

1086
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: but who actually has some acting skills and knows something

1087
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: about Elizabeth's life. And so that was a big chance

1088
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: that Kat was taking there. Uh, the other reason that

1089
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: the wigs Elizabeth there were big people that actually saw

1090
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: her without her wigs on, and she wasn't bald, she

1091
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: had a full head of hair. She didn't she didn't

1092
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: have a full head of hair. She had small scars

1093
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: because she got smallpox at one point and she she

1094
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: had pretty severe scarring from it. And that was one

1095
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I've seen listen that she had

1096
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: she got she had more wigs after that was to

1097
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: cover the bald spots that were caused by the scar. Yeah,

1098
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: but it wasn't male pattern, No, it wasn't. It wasn't

1099
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: my hair line, which is a very shallow hair line,

1100
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: by the way, I would back there, I would I

1101
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: would also suspect that of like a symptom of lead poisoning.

1102
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: There's always that. You know, a lot of a lot

1103
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: of dishwaar in those days was made of lead. They

1104
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: that lead was so malleable you could hammer it into

1105
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: all kinds of nice shapes. But I keep bringing that

1106
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: up because the white face paint that they used was

1107
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: literally lead base. So the white face paint that Elizabeth

1108
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: would have been slathering all over her face and putting

1109
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: on her lips every day was lead. It was like

1110
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: so much lead. Yeah, but I guess also like lead

1111
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: leads to infertility, like poisoning does lead into fertility, So

1112
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: that's the problem too. It leads to a lot of

1113
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: organ issues. But I mean those are ye bring that

1114
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: up because she smeared all over her face a little time. Yeah,

1115
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: but again that there was a lot of lead and everything.

1116
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: They were ingesting it all the time. But no no, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1117
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: not good for you, but it does very bad things. Yeah. Oh,

1118
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: back to back to where she was a guy thing.

1119
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: Apparently Elizabeth did have periods because Philip with span was,

1120
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: as you know, interested in knowing whether she could bear children,

1121
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: because he was still thought there was a chance that

1122
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: he was going to get to marry her. Of course

1123
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: he wanted an air, but his spies bribed the queen's

1124
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: launderers for details of whether she was menstruating. Did she

1125
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: ever cycle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, And the answer came back, well, yeah,

1126
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: she she is menstruating. Obligatory. Just because you get your

1127
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: period doesn't mean that your fertile statement. I guess that. Yeah.

1128
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: What's the other thing? She often wore dresses with low necklines.

1129
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: Have you met a drag queen? Ever? What? What the

1130
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: hell does that mean? Yeah? I don't know. How are

1131
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: you saying that she She couldn't have been because she

1132
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: would have had a hairy chest if she was. None

1133
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: of her portraits seemed to have her be particularly busty.

1134
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: That's true, she could have been. It should have been

1135
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: a guy with a push up rock. She wore those

1136
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: really tight corsets. And the other thing that I was

1137
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: thinking of, Okay, holy hell, I'm gonna, I mean, actually

1138
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: defend this for a second. Is that to have the

1139
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: voice of a woman and to have some of the

1140
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: lighter build. There's an easy way to have a boy

1141
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: do that castration, which is to make up a Eunich

1142
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: and then the test astro doesn't kick in and all

1143
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: that pesky hair doesn't show up. Good point. And actually, frankly,

1144
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: I'm looking at pictures, you know, portraits of Elizabeth now

1145
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: and they're all like, very flat chested. And she also

1146
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: had the neck ruffle that she loved to wear that

1147
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: would also cover up the difference between her neck. But

1148
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: they're very flat chested. That was what was in style

1149
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: at that point. I know, of course it's were rather tight. Well,

1150
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: they were tight, but they also that was in style

1151
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 1: was to have no boobs at that time. You know nothing,

1152
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, maybe I can't imagine that

1153
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: every being style, but okay, here not much outs. I mean,

1154
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, if if it's hard to believe they could

1155
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: have castrated the kid, because if if somebody said, hey,

1156
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, just to just make this whole list tarade

1157
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: work out, we're gonna have castrated, I think I would

1158
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: be like slipping out the back door and heading on home.

1159
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: Do you think even if somebody was like, but literally,

1160
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: you will be the richest person in this country and

1161
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: you will rule it. That's true. But I watched I

1162
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: watched Alma Dais, and that kid was kind of down

1163
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: with it. I can see this being okay, okay, all right, okay,

1164
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: we'll go with that. Then yeah, okay, so Liz got

1165
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: castrated and then thank you. Yeah, okay, actually over. I

1166
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys looked at the Elizabeth files.

1167
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: Oh lord, how could I not? Yeah, it is a

1168
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: huge trove of information. Yeah, it is amazing. Actually, we'll

1169
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: post a link to the Elizabeth Files if you're really

1170
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: interested in learning more about Elizabeth's is pretty cool. It's

1171
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: well written, well organized. It is well organized. It is.

1172
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: It is one of those sites. I've said this about

1173
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: sites before, is I feel like there is so much

1174
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: information on them that it's overwhelming. I read two or

1175
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: three or four are because I remember how many I

1176
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: read on there, and then they would keep coming up

1177
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: in searches and I just stopped going there because there

1178
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 1: was so much detail. It's quite well done. Oh yeah,

1179
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: it is. It's research that's definitely authoritative. But I got

1180
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: this little tidbit from from the Elizabeth files, which was

1181
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: that at some point during Mary's negotiations with the various

1182
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: monarchs around Europe, a panel of doctors examined Elizabeth. Yeah,

1183
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: that's actually could still bear children. I mean, this is

1184
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: a real big deal back in those days. And yeah,

1185
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: they gave me the conclusion that she could. Well, I'm

1186
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: not sure how they could have examined her that closely

1187
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: to the terms she could have children without noticing that

1188
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: she had a little something extra down down there. You

1189
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: know you think, yeah, you would, you would probably, Yeah,

1190
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: you would notice if Elizabeth was actually a dude. Let's

1191
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: be fair, Yeah, I think you would. Though again, in fairness,

1192
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: just examining somebody doesn't mean that you're gonna be able

1193
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: to tell if they can have a kid. Yeah. I

1194
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: don't know how you tell that either, I don't know. Okay, Well,

1195
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: so okay, to answer our questions, Uh, did she send

1196
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: the run up colonists off to their death? Yes? Absolutely,

1197
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: absolutely she did. H Yeah, she actually like when they

1198
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: opened up their food supplies, I found there was nothing

1199
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: but lead makeup in there. Pretty sure, makeup and neck ruffles. Yeah,

1200
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: sucks to be you anyway. The next question, did she

1201
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: have a child I'm kind of doubting it. Um maybe,

1202
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: but I really kind of doubted. I think we would

1203
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: have heard something. I don't know, because my I have

1204
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: a hard time with unless it was even if it

1205
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: was somebody like like Seemore, somebody after the fact, that

1206
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 1: there were ways for for contraception, and there were practices postcopulation,

1207
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, for making sure that a he didn't didn't

1208
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: come to full term. These things happen, and those things

1209
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier. I mean, I saw stuff in

1210
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: the reading that that can have a permanent effect on

1211
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: a woman's ability to be able to bear children. So

1212
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: I could see how that that's that's why where I lean.

1213
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that she was actually the

1214
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 1: virgin Queen. I don't think that she abstained for her

1215
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: entire No, So that's why that's why I leaned to

1216
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: that direct. Yeah. No, I think if she was pregnant,

1217
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: it had to have happened before she ascended to the throne.

1218
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: If she ever had a child, it would have had

1219
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: had happened, was the queen, you know, and I but

1220
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: I do agree it seems unlikely, but it's possible. But

1221
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: I also totally disagree with the whole idea that obviously

1222
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: William Shakespeare has to be the child of Elizabeth. That's

1223
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: just that's silly to me. But I I don't think

1224
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 1: she probably had a child, but if she did, it

1225
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: was very early in her life, and that person would

1226
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: have been raised totally supper from her and probably unlikely

1227
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: probably not of her own consent, right, I mean that

1228
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 1: that baby would have been taken away from her. Yeah,

1229
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: it would have been like, you know, you're not even

1230
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: gonna know who you can is probably, which would be

1231
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: a disincentive to ever do it again, exactly. Yeah, it

1232
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: would be. Yeah. Okay, last question. We'll see you guy, Okay, alright, fine,

1233
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: Uh well, I guess that's it for this week. If

1234
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts about this, if if you're descending

1235
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: from Elizabeth, of course, uh, we would love to hear

1236
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: from you, so, especially if your name is Prince Harry. Yeah,

1237
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: so write us at Thinking Sideways Podcast. So write us

1238
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. There's

1239
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 1: also our website, of course, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh.

1240
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: You can listen to the episodes. You can check the

1241
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: links that we put up for further information, and we

1242
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: will put up a link to the Elizabeth Files and

1243
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: there's a ton of st up out there. You'll enjoy it.

1244
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: We're on iTunes, so subscribe, leave us a review and rating,

1245
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: and we love those really good ratings. Especially for streaming.

1246
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: You can stream us all over the place. So now

1247
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: we don't have any recommendations there really. We're on Facebook,

1248
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast. Right on Facebook, of course we all

1249
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: we have our page and also the group. You can

1250
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: join the group and you can like you know, there's

1251
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: all kinds of good groupie. Yeah, you can be a groupie.

1252
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: There's lots of good commentary and and just conversation out there.

1253
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, We're thinking Sideways, and of course we

1254
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,439
Speaker 1: have a subreddit which which has got some stuff going

1255
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: on every now and again at least yea. And the

1256
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: last of all, we're on Patreon, so if you want

1257
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: to support the show, totally optional, but if you want to,

1258
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: you can go out and you can pledge a certain

1259
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: amount of money per episode, so be be aware of that.

1260
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: If you decide you want to get real generous and

1261
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: give us fifty bucks, just remember that's fifty bucks every episode.

1262
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: So which is why we have things like the PayPal button.

1263
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: If you want to do it one time and that's

1264
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: more conducive to your budget, then that's why that's there. Yeah,

1265
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: you can do got the merch too, Yeah, we got merch.

1266
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 1: We've got like T shirts and mugs and shirts. Somebody

1267
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 1: bought the Mary Celeste the other day. I saw that. Yeah,

1268
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: that's that's really cool. I I have not actually yet

1269
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: seen the Mary Celeste T shirt. I gotta go out

1270
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: and look at it. What is your dealings of things? Yeah, no,

1271
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna have to get one for myself. I

1272
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:22,759
Speaker 1: thought about buying you one. Yeah, and then I decided

1273
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to get a bumber stare for my car there. Yeah. Yeah,

1274
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: actually I bye bye pstus by the gross and put

1275
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: them on all kinds of people's cars. Yeah. I'm not

1276
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: endorsing that now, probably no. Emotionally, yes, yeah I like it.

1277
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: Uh So that's Patreon dot com, slash thinking sideways or

1278
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: the website. Yeah for merch. Yeah all right, Well that's

1279
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 1: it for Elizabeth. Another great historic mystery solved. So yeah,

1280
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: you bradish people to police. Don't be offended by all this. Yeah,

1281
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: I don't think she had a kid. Yeah, you guys,

1282
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,799
Speaker 1: I know I'm not passion enough Yeah me, neither alright,

1283
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: by everybody, hie guys.