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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is

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Speaker 1: somebody who I've never met before. In fact, this is

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Speaker 1: the first time we're ever talking. But I have to

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Speaker 1: say that in prepping for this interview, I've rarely encountered

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Speaker 1: such a fascinating human being. Um. I first heard about

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Speaker 1: Tim Rist It must have been I don't know, five

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Speaker 1: or six years ago, and I was talking with my

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Speaker 1: dear friend and Ali Rick Doblin, who founded MAPS, the

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Speaker 1: Multidiscenary Association of Psycholic Studies back in the mid eighties,

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Speaker 1: and his operation was still a relatively small one, very

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Speaker 1: much focused on trying to get the FDA approval for

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Speaker 1: using m d M a ecstasy to treat PTSD and

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Speaker 1: how you do and he goes, well, I think my

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Speaker 1: life is about to change. Uh, I just had this

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Speaker 1: fellow Tim Ferris said he's like offered to like help

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Speaker 1: me raise ten million dollars. And you know that this

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Speaker 1: is like a wet dream for people running an advocacy organization, right.

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Speaker 1: So it was a fascinating thing to learn. And then

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Speaker 1: as I decided to do this podcast, UH thought about

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Speaker 1: Tim as a potential guest and started reading up about him.

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Speaker 1: And I have to tell you, I mean Tim. You

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Speaker 1: look him up and you see him described as an investor,

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Speaker 1: an angel investor, as an entrepreneur, as a lifestyle guru,

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Speaker 1: as a productivity guru, as a human guinea pig. Um.

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Speaker 1: He's somebody who's been hosting a major podcast for seven

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Speaker 1: years that's one of the biggest podcasts in America, not

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Speaker 1: just in the business world, but more broadly. You look

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Speaker 1: at his Ted Talks and you know he's got these

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Speaker 1: masterful things about how to learn how to swim if

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Speaker 1: you've never done that, or how to learn languages, or

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Speaker 1: how to learn how to dance the tango. It's an

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Speaker 1: amazing combination of things. But the reason I have him

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Speaker 1: on here is that Tim has become deeply engaged in

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Speaker 1: this issue of psychedelics, and obviously from a personal perspective

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Speaker 1: um and has had his own journeys that have involved

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Speaker 1: psychedelics and then at the same time in engaging in

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Speaker 1: the broader world and many of the debates over where

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Speaker 1: psychedelics is going in the future, around commercialization all of this.

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Speaker 1: So Tim, thank you so much for taking the time

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Speaker 1: and how busy are but thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me on this. My pleasure and it's a real

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Speaker 1: honor to be here. And hopefully it's not downhill after

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Speaker 1: such a wonderful bio. So I'll do my best. I

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Speaker 1: actually can't imagine, and I can see what an incredible

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Speaker 1: pro you are on this. So let me just go

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Speaker 1: back on something with you and then we'll begin to

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Speaker 1: tie some of this together. So, in listening to your

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Speaker 1: ted talk and other things you've done, I saw the

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Speaker 1: one where you talk about your experience at Princeton as

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Speaker 1: an undergrad and uh, I mean, I think you showed

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Speaker 1: up as a freshman a few years after I stopped

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Speaker 1: teaching there as an assistant professor. So we missed one

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Speaker 1: another back years ago or whatever. But you talked about

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Speaker 1: two things that I wondered. I wonder about the relationship

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Speaker 1: between them. I mean, you've talked about having your own

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Speaker 1: history personally and also to some extent in family, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: involving bipolar depression, UM, things like that, and sometimes addiction experiences.

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Speaker 1: And in the Princeton years, you talked on the one

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Speaker 1: hand about I think, doing psychedelics numerous times back then,

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Speaker 1: and you also talked about going through a brief period

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Speaker 1: where you actually seriously contemplated killing yourself. And I wonder

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Speaker 1: was there a relationship between the psychedelic experiences and that

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Speaker 1: other you know, very depres us have experience you went

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Speaker 1: through it back then. There were definitely I think, uh

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Speaker 1: there was, there was some interplay. I don't think the

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Speaker 1: psychedelics had a role in the most acute depressive episode

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Speaker 1: that I experienced. This was around when I considered suicide.

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Speaker 1: And for anybody interested in that, certainly you can listen

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Speaker 1: to my latest TED talk or just search my name

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Speaker 1: and suicide and a very long blog post comes up

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Speaker 1: with a lot of thoughts. But my experience with psychedelics began,

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Speaker 1: as it does for a lot of people with mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: and I noticed that in contrast to my historical experience

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Speaker 1: of depression, which was at least two major extended, and

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Speaker 1: by extended I mean minimum of three to four weeks

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Speaker 1: sometimes on the order of a few months of depression

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Speaker 1: per year. That was baseline for me. And I had

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Speaker 1: a recreational experience with mushrooms, and of course this is

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Speaker 1: not what you might envision when thinking of facilitators and

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Speaker 1: supervision and so on. Me it was a bunch of

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Speaker 1: college kids eating handfuls of mushrooms, no measurement involved to

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Speaker 1: see what would happen. Nonetheless, I noticed after these experiences,

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Speaker 1: which I did once a year for a number of

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Speaker 1: years at the same time each year with a few

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Speaker 1: close friends, that there was an after glow effect. This

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Speaker 1: is with no intention, with no supervision, no integration per se. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: experienced an after glow effect and antidepressant after glow optimism

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Speaker 1: that lasted for several months. And this was a very

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Speaker 1: big deal to me, certainly, and had a material impact

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Speaker 1: on my quality of life. I should say, and I

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Speaker 1: know that that you'll have your own disclaimers, but I

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Speaker 1: do not recommend using these things in uncontrolled environments, and

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Speaker 1: I have a case study in why not to do that?

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Speaker 1: Not a doctor, don't play one on the internet. Sell

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Speaker 1: um pay attention to legal side effects as much as

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Speaker 1: any other side effects. The reason I stopped using psychedelics

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Speaker 1: for more than a decade was because during one of

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Speaker 1: these uncontrolled experiences, I went outside for a walk because

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Speaker 1: my friends had left me alone in the house and

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Speaker 1: I went out for a walk. This was very late

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Speaker 1: at night in a small rural town and effectively in

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Speaker 1: the woods, and almost got hit by a car flying

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Speaker 1: down the street with its headlights on. I was standing

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the streets, so that understandably, that

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Speaker 1: brush with mortality scared the hell out of me, and

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Speaker 1: I said, you know what, I'm not going to do

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Speaker 1: this anymore. That was too close for comfort, and uh

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Speaker 1: I stopped. And I stopped for a long period, maybe

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Speaker 1: ten years, during which I did have that near suicide,

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Speaker 1: which you know, got it got to the point. I

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Speaker 1: won't rehash the entire thing, but for people who want

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Speaker 1: a little bit more color, it wasn't just contemplating suicide.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't suicidal ideation. Man, I had a data on

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Speaker 1: the count under I had a plan for how to

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Speaker 1: do it. Everything was set and primed for committing suicide.

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Speaker 1: And the only reason it didn't happen is that I

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Speaker 1: had reserved a book from Firestone Library at Princeton related

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Speaker 1: to suicide and euthanasia. I had forgotten to change my

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Speaker 1: mailing address, so thank god. This was back in the

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Speaker 1: day of physical postcards. The postcard that said your book

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Speaker 1: has arrived and is available for pickup went home to

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Speaker 1: my parents. My mom saw it, called me, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't cop to it. I didn't admit what I was

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Speaker 1: up to. I lied. I'm not proud of that, but

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Speaker 1: I lied at the time, and that was enough to

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Speaker 1: snap me out of my kind of self referential spiral,

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Speaker 1: if that makes any sense, the thought loop that can

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Speaker 1: be all consuming. So I didn't commit suicide. And then

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Speaker 1: in I would say, somewhere between two thousand thirteen, I

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Speaker 1: saw one of my closest friends transformed by ayahuasca specifically,

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Speaker 1: and she described it to me as fifteen years of

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Speaker 1: therapy and two or three nights, which she knows her audience,

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Speaker 1: she certainly was pitching it well. I knew I did

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Speaker 1: not want to go straight to Ayawaska. I did enough

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Speaker 1: research to realize that I felt that it was a

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Speaker 1: very big gun and needed to be handled and treated

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Speaker 1: very cautiously. But that was enough to catalyzed me to

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Speaker 1: look back into not just the psychedelic space, but guided

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Speaker 1: and facilitated experiences with a sober sitter, with all of

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Speaker 1: the parameters and preparation and integration that one would now

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Speaker 1: expect from a professional facilitator. And um, that's how I

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Speaker 1: re entered the space experientially with mushrooms first and later Ayawaska,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's certainly been personally transformative for me. So

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Speaker 1: if we flashed back to what I said about the

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Speaker 1: two extended depressive episodes per year, right minimum, then I

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Speaker 1: would say, in the last eight years, I've had somewhere

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Speaker 1: between you know, two to five major depressive episodes. So

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Speaker 1: it doesn't automatically take it to zero forever. It is

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Speaker 1: not a panaceo one and done tool and my experience,

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Speaker 1: and by tool, I refer to sort of the broad

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Speaker 1: spectrum of different psychedelics that could be used, but the

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Speaker 1: before and after is unbelievably different, certainly on a personal level.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was reading, I think just a few

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Speaker 1: days ago, there was an interview with a professor at

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Speaker 1: Harvard named Gerald Rosenbaum, who's the guy at Harvard building

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Speaker 1: his own psychedelic center. They're like the ones that Hopkins

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Speaker 1: and n y u An gowing in Imperial College. And

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Speaker 1: he was asked in the interview what kind him interested,

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Speaker 1: and he talked about having this kind of ah ha moment,

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Speaker 1: and I'll read it to you. He said, much of

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Speaker 1: the burden of all the different conditions we treated psychiatry,

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Speaker 1: whether it's O c D anxiety disorder, there's addiction, depression,

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Speaker 1: a main source of suffering is a kind of repetitive, stuck,

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Speaker 1: painful dwelling on things rumination. Because I made a practice

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Speaker 1: of asking every one of my patients about rumination and

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Speaker 1: found it was a substantial part of their suffering. And

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Speaker 1: I realized that as a field, we in psychiatry had

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Speaker 1: not paid sufficient attention to it. Does that notion of

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Speaker 1: rumination doesn't resonate with you as being a key element

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Speaker 1: of all this. I think it's a huge component. It's

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Speaker 1: also a shared component across almost all of these disorders,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, and so I think it's in a

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Speaker 1: sense we have this if we want to call it

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Speaker 1: a disorder of self referential rumination, where it's like I

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Speaker 1: I I am flawed, I am too fat, I am

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Speaker 1: this me, me me. And this fixation on the self

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Speaker 1: then has many side effects, including conditions we might label

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Speaker 1: as oc as an x indrvosa, as treatment resistant depression,

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Speaker 1: as chronic anxiety. And that's not to trivialize the biochemical component.

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Speaker 1: I do think that certainly there's genetic predisposition. I think

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Speaker 1: I am an example of that for sure, And I've

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Speaker 1: had my entire genome sequence, and I've looked at the markers,

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Speaker 1: and so I check all the boxes for say bipolar

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Speaker 1: or major depressive disorder, that is a factor. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that the arrows of causality point both ways,

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Speaker 1: in the sense that the biochemistry can lead to certain

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Speaker 1: thought patterns which then create your lived experience. But your

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Speaker 1: thought patterns, inversely, can also create the sort of biochemistry

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Speaker 1: and biochemical setting for extended bouts of say depression in

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Speaker 1: my case. So you can tackle it with compounds, you

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Speaker 1: can also tackle it with content. Are revising or overwriting

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Speaker 1: the narratives that we've used to define ourselves and to

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Speaker 1: therefore limit ourselves or what we can or cannot do.

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Speaker 1: And if we look at the correspondence between let's just

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Speaker 1: say mystical experience and the therapeutic outcomes. If we look

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Speaker 1: at psilocybin at Hopkins, let's just say, it seems quite

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Speaker 1: clear to me at least that we aren't just looking

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Speaker 1: at a pharmacological intervention that is masking symptoms. There has

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Speaker 1: to be more going on here, because the half life

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Speaker 1: of these drugs is such that a day later it's

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Speaker 1: cleared your system. But how do you explain say, nicotine

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Speaker 1: addiction or nicotine addicts six months twelve months later having

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Speaker 1: vastly improved outcomes and abstinence from two or three sessions.

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Speaker 1: They're just has to be, in my mind, more to

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Speaker 1: the story. And that's part of why I've been very,

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Speaker 1: very engaged with the science since two thousand, i'd say

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Speaker 1: fifteen or so. Is because if we want to better

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Speaker 1: understand these things and to make them available therapeutically, to

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Speaker 1: improve access and so on, we need to have a

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Speaker 1: better understanding of certain mechanisms are I think it would

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Speaker 1: certainly benefit us, and ultimately, if we want to push

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Speaker 1: the ball forward on a number of fronts, we need

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Speaker 1: really good data to support that, which is also why

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Speaker 1: the phase three studies with maps and m D m

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Speaker 1: assists psychotherapy are so tremendously exciting. Yeah, I mean, hopefully

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Speaker 1: those will get approved in the next year or two.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that COVID put it off a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But one other things him, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the personal stuff. You know, I noticed one of your

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Speaker 1: TED talks you talked about, you know, dealing with one's fears,

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Speaker 1: and I thought in a very profound way, And then

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Speaker 1: I saw that less than a year ago you did

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Speaker 1: something really very courageous on your own podcast, which was

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Speaker 1: to speak, I guess for the first time openly about

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Speaker 1: your own experience as a child with child abuse. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious in terms of well, both between fears and

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Speaker 1: coming out and talking about that, I'm curious there about

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Speaker 1: why you did it when you did, why you didn't

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Speaker 1: do it sooner actually, And in terms of was it

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Speaker 1: something about psychedelic experiences or the insights derived that played

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Speaker 1: some role in your processing this or getting to you

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Speaker 1: a place where you could speak or could deal. How

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Speaker 1: would you put that together? The psychedelic therapies have absolutely

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Speaker 1: played a formative role in being able to metabolize some

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Speaker 1: of these experiences. Including the childhood sexual abuse, and people

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Speaker 1: can certainly hear the rather long episode I did almost

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Speaker 1: exactly a year ago today. I mean it was recorded

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Speaker 1: almost a year ago and then I sat on it

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Speaker 1: for a few months before releasing it. To your question

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Speaker 1: of so, yes, they played a instrumental role. And I

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Speaker 1: should also say the therapeutic rap burs around the psychedelic compounds,

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Speaker 1: because I do think it is entirely possible to have uh,

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Speaker 1: these experiences of ego dissolution and to have these powerful

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Speaker 1: experience with drugs of many types, and to experience very

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Speaker 1: little therapeutic value. That I think that is extremely common.

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't automatically mean if you take one of

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Speaker 1: these compounds that say you're going to quit smoking, right,

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Speaker 1: The intention and the therapeutic wrapper and the follow up

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Speaker 1: and the accountability, these are all very important ingredients. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want to downplay that side note, but very

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Speaker 1: much related. That is why you know Rick will be

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Speaker 1: the first person to constantly say it's not m d

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Speaker 1: m A that we're doing studies on. We're doing studies

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Speaker 1: on m d m A assisted psychotherapy. And he always

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Speaker 1: wants to emphasize that for very good reasons. So yes,

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Speaker 1: they played an instrumental role. I didn't disclose or speak

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Speaker 1: publicly about the childhood abuse for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: One is I was concerned about destroying my parents, not

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Speaker 1: because they were the perpetrators, but because I felt they

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Speaker 1: would very likely blame themselves, and the plan therefore had

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Speaker 1: been to do it after they passed away. I also

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Speaker 1: was very concerned about the possibility of re traumatizing myself

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Speaker 1: by discussing the details of the experience, which I had

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Speaker 1: gone through once before in attempting to write about it.

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Speaker 1: So I was going to write about it in a

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Speaker 1: book about my healing journey, sort of pivoting around this

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Speaker 1: childhood experience, and just the process of trying to write

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Speaker 1: about it fucked me up in a significant destabilizing way

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Speaker 1: for six to twelve months. It affected almost every relationship

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Speaker 1: in my life for six to twelve months, which was

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Speaker 1: not ultimately net positive, certainly for me. Uh and I

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Speaker 1: decided to record the podcast with a close friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Debbie Millman, who's a spectacular woman, incredible designer who has

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Design Matters, and she also on my

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Speaker 1: podcast for the first time, spoke publicly about her childhood abuse,

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Speaker 1: which I knew nothing about, and I decided to record

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Speaker 1: the conversation first with no obligation to publish, and to

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Speaker 1: view that as a therapeutic exercise and hopefully a cathartic

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Speaker 1: purging of sorts to observe that see how I felt

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Speaker 1: after the recording and then and only then to consider

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Speaker 1: releasing it, in part because my girlfriend said to me

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Speaker 1: as I was discussing with her the possibility of writing

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Speaker 1: a book about this, and she said, if you write

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Speaker 1: a book, it's going to take three to four years.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever thought about the fact that in three

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Speaker 1: or four years, a lot of people who were struggling

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Speaker 1: with these things will either die of let's just call

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Speaker 1: them normal causes, or commit suicide, or end up somewhere

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Speaker 1: ten times worse than they are today. And that's how

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Speaker 1: I decided to explore the podcast format as a way

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Speaker 1: of getting it out without too much unhelpful perfectionism around

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Speaker 1: crafting the perfect words and sentences and so on, which

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Speaker 1: I think I would just use as a tool for procrastination.

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Speaker 1: So those are those are a few of the puzzle

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Speaker 1: pieces that we're in play. When I decided to do

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Speaker 1: this a year ago and I'm very glad that I did.

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Speaker 1: It was extremely difficult experience, and I was deluged by

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Speaker 1: calls and texts and stories of sometimes very graphic abuse

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Speaker 1: from in many cases very close friends who had never

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Speaker 1: shared their stories with anyone. And it was extremely brutal.

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Speaker 1: And I don't regret it for a second, but it

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Speaker 1: was a very very difficult month or two after publication. Well,

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Speaker 1: was that really a courteous thing you did and undoubtedly

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Speaker 1: did a lot of good. We'll be talking more after

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Speaker 1: we hear this ad. You know, I sometimes we give

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Speaker 1: these talks and I'd say, you know, psychedelics, they're wasted

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Speaker 1: on the young, right, you know, you do mushrooms, you

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Speaker 1: do see and you're you're you know, the colors and

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Speaker 1: the sensations and all this sort of stuff. And I said, actually,

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Speaker 1: psychedelics is something you should do as you get older,

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Speaker 1: and that maybe it's something that as we get older

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Speaker 1: we should commit to doing, like at least once a year,

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Speaker 1: just to stir up old emotional sediment and keep yourself

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Speaker 1: honest and all this sort of thing. But I've also

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Speaker 1: been thinking, on the other hand, that you know, as

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Speaker 1: I talk with friends and friends especially who have you know,

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Speaker 1: teenagers or maybe young twenties, someome things, but even teenagers

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Speaker 1: who are struggling with serious anxiety or depression, which seems

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Speaker 1: to be quite pervasive these days. And I'll set him

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Speaker 1: these articles and I realized that nobody's really talking as

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Speaker 1: yet about the value of doing these psychedelics and guided experiences.

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Speaker 1: And yes, the caveat which both the lawyers told hell

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Speaker 1: us to do, but we're also this being personally, is

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Speaker 1: that anything we say we recommend, please don't do it

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Speaker 1: without checking with people to really trust we're not recommending

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Speaker 1: you do these things. But that said, uh, you know

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Speaker 1: what I get oftentimes from my friends is that, well,

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Speaker 1: what we gotta try everything else. First, we gotta try

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Speaker 1: the S S R. Eyes, We've gotta try this, we

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Speaker 1: gotta try that. We got blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: And oftentimes you can just almost see where this is going.

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Speaker 1: It's just gonna keep going on in this problem. And

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you've thought about that about I mean,

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Speaker 1: Rick Dobbin was always very bold about saying what about

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Speaker 1: drugs and kids? And we would tease one another about

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Speaker 1: how far are you're gonna go on that? But the

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Speaker 1: notion that maybe this is something that could prove to

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Speaker 1: be of great value, not just for adults, but even

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Speaker 1: for you know, late teens or whatever, um going through

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Speaker 1: terrible times. Nobody's talking about that yet. Have you thought

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Speaker 1: about it at all? Oh? Sure, I thought about it.

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Speaker 1: It's very dicey terrain to explore for a bunch of reasons, right,

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Speaker 1: But let me tell a story or an anecdote first,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll come back to the topic. The anecdote

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Speaker 1: is from a friend who is an ethnobotanist, spends a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in South America, and he was having

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Speaker 1: a conversation with one of the Iowa Skats. Are the

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Speaker 1: the Aahuasca healers. Let's just say they would never call

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Speaker 1: themselves shamans unless they're Charlatan's looking for gringos. But the

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Speaker 1: Iowas ghetto was asked if they ever give iowaska to children,

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Speaker 1: and he said absolutely not, absolutely not. We do not

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Speaker 1: give iowaska to children. We wait until they're at least

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Speaker 1: five years old. So from from an indigenous perspective, and

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Speaker 1: also in many of the churches that use iowaska is

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Speaker 1: a sacrament. As one example, it can start very young

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Speaker 1: the biggest caveat or concern, one of the biggest concerns

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Speaker 1: that I would have with say teens or even people

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Speaker 1: in their early twenties. And this is worth noting. These

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Speaker 1: are exclusionary criteria for a lot of the studies that

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Speaker 1: are being done at various universities. If you have a

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Speaker 1: family history of genetic history of schizophrenia, as an example,

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Speaker 1: psychedelics can accelerate the onset of symptoms, right, And it's

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Speaker 1: it's undetermined as of yet if psychedelic experiences can cause

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Speaker 1: onset of schizophrenia in people who would not otherwise experience

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Speaker 1: it in their say, mid de late twenties. But that

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Speaker 1: that is I think a legitimate concerns. That's that's something

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Speaker 1: I did want to mention for a lot of adolescence,

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Speaker 1: certainly in indigenous cultures, these compounds are used in rites

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Speaker 1: of passage and they are core components of the fabric

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Speaker 1: of culture that binds these communities together, so I don't

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Speaker 1: totally rule it out. I also think there could be

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Speaker 1: tremendous applications for m D m A and m B

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Speaker 1: m A. I think gets neglected in some senses because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't automatically have the fantastical stories that say in

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Speaker 1: ayahuasca does if that makes sense, right, It's not exotic

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Speaker 1: in the same way it doesn't have the connotations of

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Speaker 1: wizardry or sorcery and so on that the words shaman

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Speaker 1: connotates in the minds of of most Westerners. So I

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Speaker 1: think M, D M A sometimes gets pushed to the side,

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Speaker 1: whereas in reality, I think it will be proven to

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Speaker 1: be very effective and quite a few conditions and indications,

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Speaker 1: not just complex PTSD so TBD. But that is a

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Speaker 1: long way of saying that I would hope that at

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Speaker 1: some point we we get to a phase where with

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Speaker 1: proper screening, these compounds can also be used for people

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Speaker 1: in need who are not eighteen or twenty one years old.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think also with ayahuasca, the words great ayahuasca,

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Speaker 1: you just love saying it as opposed to four initials, right, M, D, M, A,

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Speaker 1: d MT, you know, which is the key element in

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Speaker 1: Ayahuaska is not quite as colorful and spectacular in that way,

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Speaker 1: you know. Years ago, I think I've only been the

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Speaker 1: Burning Man once, and it must have been ten twelve

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Speaker 1: years or so ago, and I was part of Rick

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Speaker 1: Doblin's Maps camp and I remember he had a little

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Speaker 1: kind of harm reduction tent there, which I don't know

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Speaker 1: if they called it Zendo back then, but has since

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Speaker 1: been called become called Zendo. And I remember being there

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Speaker 1: and just seeing that this thing where, you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: had an outrageously terrifying experience in the cops that I

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Speaker 1: think Bureau of Land Management We're about to take him

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Speaker 1: off in a helicopter and bringing out a hospital and

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Speaker 1: give him all sorts of things, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: could see how you know, maps intervening to help calm

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Speaker 1: them down. But then I read that you've spent some

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Speaker 1: time in that tent playing that role of helping people

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Speaker 1: as well, and I'm curious what was that like for you? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And does it what does it want you? Does it

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Speaker 1: cause you want to do more in the way of

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Speaker 1: a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, not on yourself, but you're doing it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I know this is a good topic. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to you volunteer. And to be clear, I'm not a psychotherapist,

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Speaker 1: but at Zendo, which everyone should check out, they would,

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Speaker 1: I think they still self describe as peer based harm reduction.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's something along those lines. In terms of

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Speaker 1: the messaging, but they provide volunteer training, which is non directive.

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Speaker 1: In other words, you're not diagnosing people or telling them

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Speaker 1: what they should think or shouldn't think, but often asking

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Speaker 1: questions caring for them when they are in non ordinary

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Speaker 1: states of consciousness, which is a generous UH term to

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Speaker 1: use for some of these cases. I volunteered at Zendo

429
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: at burning Man for multiple burning Man's and I also

430
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: volunteered at other festivals that skew younger because the younger

431
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: participants tend to mix and match much more haphazardly and

432
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: get themselves into much more trouble. And I always wanted

433
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: the worst shifts, which for me would be the best shifts,

434
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: because I wanted to gain familiarity with how redline cases

435
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: were handled. Uh So most of my time was spent

436
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: in what they would call the crisis tent. And the

437
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: crisis tent is when someone in the room of let's

438
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: just say there are ten to twenty maximum journeyers, let's

439
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: just say, people who have usually been brought in because

440
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: they're having a very destabilizing or difficult experience. If there's

441
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: someone who cannot be in that group environment because they're

442
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 1: too violent or too disruptive. Then they get brought to

443
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: the crisis tent, and that's where I spent most of

444
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 1: my time. So I'll say a few things. Number one is,

445
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: uh many of the worst cases H And by worst,

446
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I just mean most severe cases we saw involved alcohol.

447
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: It was combining alcohol with other drugs. Certainly when violence

448
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: was involved, it was very often involved being alcohol end

449
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: or methamphetamine. As far as complete psychological let's just call

450
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: it breakdown for now, for simplicity, where you might have

451
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: someone in a sixty to ninety second loop where they're

452
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: speaking gibbers that just repeats for eight to nine to

453
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: ten hours. In my limited experience, which is not that much,

454
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: but I've probably done eighty two hours of volunteering in

455
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: those types of environments. Uh LSD, which is so old

456
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: fashioned and not discussed as often these days, nonetheless, is

457
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: an incredibly potent psychedelic and can be very very destabilizing

458
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: for people. But it's treated, for whatever reason lightly by folks,

459
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: especially those who don't realize just how small a microgram is.

460
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: It is not a milligram, and therefore you have people

461
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: coming in who have taken four or five six hits

462
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: and they're just completely gone. But you know, what you

463
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: learn rather quickly is that when people are mixing and

464
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: matching drugs, especially number one, bad things do happen. And

465
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: that is why very often Zendo or different operations like

466
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: Xendo are right next to the medical triage tent, because

467
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: you'll have people who take some ridiculous quantity of m

468
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: D M A plus cocaine, plus this, plus that and

469
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: the other thing, and they get up to a body

470
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: temperature of a hundred and five. Uh. These are very very,

471
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: very dangerous circumstances, and the best facilitator in the world

472
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: from a psychedelic context is not going to be able

473
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: to do anything with that person to address the physical risks.

474
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: And the second is you can have a very hands

475
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: off approach that keeps someone from hurting themselves or other people,

476
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: assuming they've used a compound that has a very favorable

477
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: toxicity profile like LSD or mushrooms, where the you know,

478
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: the l D fifty, the lethal dose that will kill

479
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: of any given population or that would be expected to

480
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: is for all practical purposes non existent. Those people will

481
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: come around, they just need time and they need to

482
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: be put in a set of circumstances where they can't

483
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: hurt themselves or anyone else or break anything, doesn't mean

484
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: they won't take a swing at your head. I definitely

485
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: got clocked by a few people. So it was it

486
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: was a real sobering experience. And it was also a

487
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: fascinating study not just of the people who came in

488
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: on various drug experiences, but of various sitters because a

489
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: lot of the people who are volunteering in these tents

490
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: are aspiring guides. Not always, but you would see people

491
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: trying to like use techniques and perfumes and so on,

492
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: which they're really not supposed to do, and it was

493
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: really counterproductive um and that's recommended against. That's not necessarily

494
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: part of the training. So overall it was it was

495
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: like being an anthropologist and being able to really observe

496
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: a wide spectrum. Uh. Because I think it's tempting for

497
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: people who have consumed psychedelics to develop a Messiah complex

498
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: where they want to, after two or three experiences, go

499
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: out and reach into people and save their souls. Because

500
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: they've had a few experiences that weren't destabilizing, they assume

501
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: that they can provide that to everyone else. And that's

502
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: just simply not the case. So I wanted to educate

503
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: myself on adverse events by taking the busiest eer shifts possible,

504
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: so to speak, tremendously valuable. So, Tim, there's been some

505
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: issues that are emerging as the psychedelics area, psychedelics therapy

506
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: and research just explodes now, and psychedelics use as well,

507
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: in part because of the work of Maps, the contributions

508
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: you've made, Michael Pollan's book, and so much else going

509
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: on like that, you know. So the first question I

510
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: have I saw you blogging on the issue of the

511
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: plant medicines versus the synthetic and your own recommendations to people,

512
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: not just about which psychedelics are better or worse for

513
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: which things or m DMA or would have you, but

514
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 1: also in terms of thinking about the environment and protection

515
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: of indigenous peoples, things like that. So maybe just lay

516
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: that out in a brief way about your recommendations to people.

517
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: Right now from looking at this whole way, the thing

518
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: is evolving. The blog post I think I called uh

519
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: something along the lines of a letter to users of psychedelics,

520
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: let us consider a more ethical menu of options something

521
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: like that. People can find it at tempt up blog.

522
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: Forward slash conservation, I think, and it was it was

523
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: looking at a list of compounds plants as well as

524
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: animal derived psychoactives that are somewhat de jure at the moment,

525
00:31:53,720 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: meaning popular, and the complete unsustainability of many of them. Right,

526
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: So that would include five M E O D M

527
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: T as extracted from the Sonoran desert toad or buffo

528
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: al various goes by a number of different names. Some

529
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: people refer to it as buffo completely unsustainable to continue

530
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: harvesting from animals themselves payote, certainly, many members of the

531
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: Native American Church have petitioned and spoken publicly and been

532
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: featured in long form media as requesting that peyote not

533
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: be decriminalized. They want peyote to remain illegal to consume

534
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: unless you are a member of the Native American Church,

535
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: because it can take ten to fifteen years for a

536
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: payote button to reach maturity, and the natively occurring let's

537
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: just call it supplies of peyote are I mean nearing

538
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: extinction and grow in very few places. So as I say,

539
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: substitute for that. If people want to consume mescaline, uh,

540
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: they can consider some thing that is much faster growing uh,

541
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: and much more sustainable that could come in the form

542
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: of something like San Pedro cactus, or they could look

543
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: at synthetics. Although synthetic mescaline is typically pretty hard to

544
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: get a hold of, at least right now, there are

545
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: a few startups looking at synthetic mescaline and developing treatment

546
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: models around it. So that particular piece really just highlighted

547
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: a number of issues with current trends in psychedelic consumption

548
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: and was intended to draw attention to the contradiction between

549
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: the ethos that many psychedelic users hope to embody, that of,

550
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: let's just say, protecting the earth and supporting ecosystems, reciprocity

551
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: with indigenous cultures that have introduced the West to some

552
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: of these plants and compounds is directly at odds with

553
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: consuming things in a way that causes destruction of ecosystems

554
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: and habitats. And I think that's a tough pill pun

555
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: intended for a lot of people to swallow in the

556
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: space because perhaps their wallets are impacted as practitioners by

557
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: my position that one should not use natural sourcing for

558
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: a number of these things. But if it's not addressed now,

559
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: it's going to be addressed later with a very very

560
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: very heavy toll on not just the ecosystems involved, but

561
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: also the community is involved, which will succumb to extractive

562
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: forces if they are paid handsomely for it. Humans are humans.

563
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: I hate to inform everybody, but if you want to

564
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: study human study incentives, and if things get perverse enough

565
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: with respect to supply and demand, then we're just really

566
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: saying to pay attention to what I say, don't pay

567
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: attention to what I do. And I find that hypocritical.

568
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: Another another point that I wanted to make in that

569
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: piece is that the same people who often on some

570
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: level worship these indigenous lineages, and I think there's a

571
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: lot to be learned from these lineages, and I've spent

572
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: time all over the place at great length with a

573
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: number of tribes and groups and so on. But the

574
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: same people who sort of worship at the altar of

575
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: indigenous tradition become preoccupied with stamping their psychedelic passport with

576
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: as many compounds as possible without perhaps putting together the

577
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: pieces and realizing that there's almost no indigenous culture that

578
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm aware of uses twelve different psychedelics. They tend to

579
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: be geographically bound, and they specialize in one or two

580
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: things predominantly, even when they have access to many different psychoactives.

581
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: So to to that extent, I just want to emphasize

582
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: that you can do a lot with just M D

583
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: M A or just and I put just in air

584
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: quotes here, say mushrooms are psilocybin um. These these are

585
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: incredibly flexible tools. They're not single use tool. Uh So

586
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's sometimes I think an arms race or

587
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: maybe spirituality Olympics of sorts, where people want to show

588
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: how evolved their consciousness is by rattling off ten or

589
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: twenty or thirty compounds that they've used. But I have

590
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: not found the number of compounds to correspond to sort

591
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: of responsible, proactive, productive living in the world. Let's take

592
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: a break here and go to an ad h. You

593
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: made another point I think in that blogged him um,

594
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: which reminded me of you know, I was friendly with

595
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: Sasha Shulgin in you know, in his Latin latter decades

596
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: he was a remarkable inventor of these substances. And go

597
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: to visit him in his backyard lab and see his

598
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: latest creations in two C B and this and that,

599
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: but he was dismissive of the whole idea that somehow

600
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: the natural version is better than this anthetic version. His

601
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: view was, it's still the same chemical and if anything

602
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: taking in the synthetic version, if it's if it's a

603
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: reliable supply, is basically going to be purer and cleaner,

604
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: and in fact, you're less likely to have some of

605
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: the negative effects of nausea other sorts of things like

606
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: that that can result from the other ingredients in the

607
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: mushroom or in the payotea or whatever it might be.

608
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: But I think you're basically right lined up with him

609
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: on that viewpoint. Is that right, I'm lined up more

610
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 1: than I am not lined up, So I would say

611
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: I think that that we need to move to synthetic.

612
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: The only way that moving to synthetic for many of

613
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: these compounds works is if they are reclassified legally or legalized, right,

614
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: because I can't in good faith say don't use say buffo,

615
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: use M d M A. But if it's sourced from uh,

616
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 1: let's just say someplace in Asia where there's mass deforestation

617
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: and dumping of solvents and so on. In the black

618
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: market production of M D M A, I can't really

619
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: say that with a straight face. Um, So the policy

620
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: and legal aspects of this are important, I think to

621
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: keep an eye on and advocate for simultaneous with looking

622
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: at the selection of compounds, because black market production also

623
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: has tremendous costs associated. Um. That's why I'm not just

624
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: involved with the psychedelic science piece of things, which really

625
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: science focused on psychedelic medicine, but also looking at the

626
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: policy pieces, looking at the legal aspects, looking at intellectual property.

627
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: It's i think extremely important while this ecosystem is so nascent,

628
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: both on the nonprofit and for profit sides, that we

629
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: pay a lot of attention to any type of obstructionist

630
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: behavior or monopolistic behavior that could act to the detriment

631
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: of innovation and entire space. So there's a lot going

632
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: on on multiple fronts. Well, I mean you wrote about

633
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: this in your blog too, which is the issue of

634
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: the growing commercialization. I mean there's now a company out there,

635
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, listed on the Stock Exchange Compass with a

636
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: valuation of a billion and a half dollars, which is

637
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: out there trying to patent it's basically versions or whatever

638
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: of psilocybin and the things that's doing with it, and

639
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: you have on the other side folks who are actively

640
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: opposing that. I'm thinking of carry turn both, who has

641
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: been a major donor trying to keep this open. I

642
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: see you, I see Rick and others really trying to

643
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: figure out some sort of middle ground. But what is

644
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: your perspective on this whole commercialization and patent seeking and

645
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: is it inevitable, does it need to happen, does it

646
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: play an important role? Should there be constraints? Yeah, these

647
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: are big topics. I'm not in a sectual property lawyer,

648
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 1: but I do spend a lot of time with quite

649
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: a few uh. And I should also say, you know,

650
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: I know, and I've met a lot of the people

651
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: were talking about, right, So I've met, certainly Carrie and Rick,

652
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: who I think are great people. I've met the founders

653
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: of Compass, have spent some time with them, and I

654
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: think that they truly do want to make these therapies

655
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: available available to millions of people. But the you know,

656
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: the devils in the details, as always, and I do

657
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: not believe it is realistic to create an entirely separate

658
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: economic system just for the development of for profit psychedelic companies.

659
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: I think that is probably naive. I do think there's

660
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: space for hybrid models or new business models that can

661
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: protect founders or founding teams from their lesser selves and impulses,

662
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: which will come up as incentives change. On the topic

663
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: of patents, I think that patents are extremely important and

664
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: valid as a means of providing some degree of protection

665
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: for those who invest a lot of resources into novel

666
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: discoveries or non obvious inventions or innovations. Does that make sense,

667
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: it's a it's a mouthful. Where we get into all

668
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: sorts of UH problems is when we allow people to

669
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: use patents as a means of obstruction. And this is

670
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: nothing new. You can certainly google patent trolling to see

671
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: that this is not a new phenomenon. But if someone

672
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: is attempting to patent obvious aspects of the psychedelic experience,

673
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 1: whether that's related to the configuration of a sitting room

674
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: with soft furniture holding hands, or if they are taking

675
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: an existing molecule and providing a very very minor alteration

676
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: to that molecule which has no improved therapeutic effect, but

677
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: allows them to file a patent that they can then

678
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: use to prevent other companies from coming to market or

679
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: we're still if they use that as a form of

680
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: leverage to say, provide equity to scientists in exchange for

681
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: those scientists or researchers speaking against decriminalization of psilocybin hypothetically. Uh,

682
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: then we get into some very murky, Machiavellian type behavior.

683
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: And it's that type of behavior that I object to.

684
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: It's not patents in and of themselves. We're not going

685
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: to get around patents. Patents are going to need to

686
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: be an aspect of the for profit models, and I'm

687
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: fine with that as long as the intention is to

688
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: protect those who have put over a set period of time,

689
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: those who have invested a lot of resources into producing

690
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: a true innovation. This is really important, right. I don't

691
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: think anyone would disagree that the person who comes up with,

692
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: say a life saving cardiac medication, if they put in

693
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: ten years of effort and hundreds of millions or billions

694
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: of dollars of capital, that it is reasonable for them

695
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: to be able to to protect that invention for a

696
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: limited period of time. I think that's very reasonable, and

697
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: I think it will also be reasonable in psychedelics, if,

698
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: for instance, someone takes a molecule like iby gain and

699
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: creates a non psychedelic version of that, or a version

700
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: of it without the comcommittant cardiac risks that can be

701
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: applied to opiate addiction or in the case of say

702
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: LSD two cluster headaches. I think those are all valid.

703
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: But we're going to see the same bad behavior that

704
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: we've seen everywhere else in psychedelics because the bad news

705
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: slash good news is that humans are humans. So yeah,

706
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean, Tim, I'll tell you when I look in

707
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: other areas of drug policy, I look what happened like

708
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: when the locks zone, you know, the miracle drug to

709
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: reverse an opioid overdose, and now there's a form of

710
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: administering it which costs hundreds of dollars. You want in

711
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 1: the locks zone to be as widely available, but there's

712
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: various pressures to use the more expensive one. You look

713
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: in the ketamine area, right, and then you have called

714
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: skedamine or something like this version that's being used in

715
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: ketamine clinics, yeah, which is more expensive. And what I'm

716
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: hearing from people is sometimes the clinics that are using

717
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: that one tend to be the less credible clinics were

718
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: the ones that really had people interested in doing good

719
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: ketamine assistant psychotherapy are not using that. And then I

720
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: even remember, like in the medical marijuana area, I remember

721
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: organizing a conference in London back the first conference ever

722
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: on regulating cannabis in London back in and one of

723
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: the people who showed up was Jeffrey Guy who had

724
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: just started GW Pharmaceuticals and he was part of this world.

725
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: Will flash forward to you know, ten fifteen years later,

726
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: and they're doing very good work in terms of producing

727
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: compounds from the marijuana plants that can be approved by

728
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: the FDA for you know, different types of symptoms, which

729
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: is to their credit. But on the other hand, they're

730
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: hiring a lobbyist in Washington who used to be the

731
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: Deputy Drugs are making the most outrageous claims in order

732
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: to block the movement of criminalization and legalization. So you

733
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: see that type of behavior happening, and I guess what

734
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm worried about, is it maybe the George Goldsmith and Compass.

735
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: They're coming from the right place and they're the first

736
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: generation of the real commercializers. But when you think of

737
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: that second or third generation, yes they need their patent protection,

738
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: and yes I hear some of the kind of knee

739
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: jerk anti capitalism coming from the left in the psychedelics field.

740
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: But you know, will this land up messing up the

741
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: whole thing or not? I think I think we will

742
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: see We're already seeing the big farm of big tobacco

743
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: playbooks applied to psychedelics. These are not new techniques, these

744
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: are not new strategies. Like just like you pointed out,

745
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: I mean what we saw in uh. And I'm not

746
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: an expert in the in in cannabis nor in policy

747
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: related to cannabis, but based on what I've heard from friends,

748
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: it's like this is the same movie, it's just a

749
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: different soundtrack. So I think we can expect those behaviors. Uh.

750
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: It's it's entirely predictable, and there is a knee jerk

751
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: anti capitalist response from a lot of people in the

752
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: world of psychedelics. I find that to be completely unhelpful.

753
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: I'm okay with people being dissatisfied or disgruntled with how

754
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: things are, but if they're only focused on the problems

755
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: and provide no proposed solutions, or if they're not taking

756
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: any action or trying to set up systems to mitigate

757
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: those risks, then it's just navel gazing and intellectual masturbation.

758
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of impatience for people who

759
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: are kind of shaking their fist at the sky and

760
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: saying that psychedelic shouldn't be commercialized. That ship is sailed,

761
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: and furthermore, we will need financially sustainable models. If the

762
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: goal is to get this two millions of people, we

763
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: will need insurance reimbursement as one example. And these are

764
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: very complicated, thorny problems. But I do think that right

765
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: now a lot of damage can be done by some

766
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 1: of these larger players because the field is so embryonic.

767
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: If this were a field where there were a hundred

768
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: company ease and there's kind of healthy competition with a

769
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: number of dominant players, not just one or two, I

770
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: think that the pathway to going to market as a

771
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: start up, for instance, who is truly doing innovative things,

772
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 1: would be less fraught with risk than it is right

773
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: now in a sense because patent examiners are very unfamiliar

774
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: by and large with prior arts, so it makes it

775
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: very challenging for them to review a thousand page document

776
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: full of claims related to psychedelics, and oftentimes the intention

777
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: behind drowning patent examiners in thousands of pages is to

778
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: hope that they miss one or two that are very broad.

779
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: And that's not new, it's what people are doing right now.

780
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: So a lot of my efforts are going to be shifting,

781
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 1: in a sense, from the scientific to more the legal

782
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: and policy side, as well as the journalistic side up

783
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: so that we can have some checks and balances and

784
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: watchdogs of sorts to hopefully keep at least a percentage

785
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: of the for profit players thinking about best practices and

786
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: the possible consequences of being bad actors. You know, people

787
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 1: ask me, I mean, let me ask you this question.

788
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: Do you see envisioned that's the whole psychedelics medication area

789
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: becoming a multi billion or multi tensive billions area. I mean,

790
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: on the one hand, it seems this is not a

791
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: drug like SSR eyes we're gonna take it every day.

792
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: It's something where you're gonna take it once or take

793
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: it only occasionally. So is there the potential for that?

794
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: I do think there's the potential. I also think that

795
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: we will observe what we're already observing. I see a

796
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: lot of investment decks, meaning proposals for fundraising related to

797
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: for profit companies. I've seen dozens of them in the

798
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: psychedelic space. I made the decision for myself when I

799
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: began supporting the research that I would not make any

800
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: for profit investments in this space to preserve my objectivity

801
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: and ability to be an observer and critic in the space.

802
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 1: I felt that was important, and I invest in plenty

803
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: of other areas, so I don't I don't feel the

804
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: need to do it in psychedelics. But what I will

805
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: say is I suspect we will see many companies UH

806
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: that will position and are positioning the psychedelic effects as

807
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: unwanted side effects to be removed. They will position the

808
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: duration as undesirable and incompatible with current healthcare, and so

809
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: there will be a drive to take these molecules, modify

810
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: them in such a way that they can be administered

811
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: in one to two hours or less in some type

812
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: of lightly supervised setting, rather than two or three sessions

813
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: of administration in say, in eight week period or something

814
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: like that. They will be converted into maintenance drugs of

815
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: some type or another. And I'm not saying that will

816
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: happen across the board, but the business and financial incentives

817
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: will drive people to modify the use of compound. So,

818
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: in a sense, the market size for psychedelics depends on

819
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: where we draw the line at calling something psychedelic. Right, So,

820
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: if we take a molecule and we strip out the

821
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: visual effects by using a like serotonin type two, a

822
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: receptor antagonist, or just by neutering the molecule in some

823
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: particular way altering it, does that still qualify as a

824
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 1: psychedelic If it's based on the backbone of the molecular

825
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: structure of something that once imparted psychedelic eco dissolution effects.

826
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: I'm less sure where we cross that line, and we're

827
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: already seeing that right where you have compounds that are

828
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: perfectly good. You mentioned ketamine, and there's a slight tweak

829
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: made to the molecule, and it's put into a nasal sprain.

830
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: You take it two or three times a week, maybe

831
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: it's even dailia. I can't remember the frequency of administration.

832
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: But I would expect that many, many, many businesses will

833
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: be launching that will try to take the psychedelic effects

834
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: out of psychedelics and preserve some type of therapeutic value. Now,

835
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: in fairness, I want to say that I do think

836
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: there is quite possibly something there with certain molecules as

837
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: applied to different conditions, where the masking of symptoms may

838
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: very well be all that's needed. But if we're looking

839
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: at addressing causes and not just masking symptoms, I am

840
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: firmly in the camp that the psychedelic experience itself and

841
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: the reformatting of content and narratives is a core component

842
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: of the durability of the therapeutic effect. I don't think

843
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: it's true for all conditions, but certainly for the rumination

844
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: related looping patterns and rigidity that we alluded to earlier,

845
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: which really encapsulates a broad spectrum of seemingly unrelated conditions.

846
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: It's very difficult to explain the six and twelve month

847
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 1: durability of effect in any way that makes sense without

848
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: considering the changes in content and narrative that people use

849
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: to guide their decisions and self image. So Tim, let

850
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: me just closed by I'm asking you this. Here you are.

851
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: You've moved from one thing to another. I mean, you've had,

852
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: like I think where you're gonna be forty four this

853
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: summer or something like that, and you've already had like

854
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: multiple different amazing careers for the last five, six, seven

855
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: years you've been do in the podcast, and I see

856
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: you contributing a huge amount of your time and energy

857
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: and money to the whole psychedelics area. Now what I'm

858
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,359
Speaker 1: wondering is, so, Tim Ferris, five years from now, uh

859
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: still doing podcasts, still involved in the psychedelics in the

860
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: same way, onto something totally different. I think I'll still

861
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: be doing the podcast because the podcast is really just

862
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: having great conversations with interesting people. So I can't imagine

863
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: getting tired of that. I don't think I'll be involved

864
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: with psychedelics in the same way. I really view my role,

865
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: or have viewed my role, as trying to get the

866
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 1: flywheel spending in a few different areas related to psychedelics.

867
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 1: The funding information of the Johns Hopkins Center for Consciousness

868
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: and Psychedelicy Research, the first such center in the US,

869
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,959
Speaker 1: was intended to act as a model for than other

870
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: universities and researchers to increase the scope of their ambition

871
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: to create other centers. Right, So I'm trying to do

872
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: things that set precedents that galvanize a field in a

873
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: in a sense um and I'm not doing it alone.

874
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of people involved doing this,

875
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: and the psychedelic ecosystem in nonprofit scientific for profit space

876
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: is getting so active it's just going parabolic, and the

877
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: degree of complexity alongside the the sheer number of people

878
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: who are now dedicating their full time attention to this

879
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: is such that I think I will be redundant very quickly.

880
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: I just won't be able to have an outsized impact

881
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: for relatively small inputs. And so I suspect that once

882
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: we see federal funding opening up from N I H

883
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: and I M H and so on, which is of

884
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: a long term that's been a long term focus of mine,

885
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: trying to determine what the antecedents or the prerequisites are

886
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: for that, and trying to push all of those forward

887
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: and tandem once that happens. Once that begins to happen,

888
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: I'll view my my job, so to speak, is largely complete,

889
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: and your next job you don't know. And then I

890
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: don't know what's coming next. I'm kind of excited about that,

891
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: being a parent, maybe, so Tim, let me say thank

892
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: you so much for doing this. It's been a pleasure

893
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: to have this conversation with you. I so deeply appreciate

894
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: on a very personal level, you know the amazing contribution

895
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: that you're making in this field, and best of luck

896
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: with all your next steps. Thank you so much, it's

897
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 1: been I've been a pleasure to spend time together, and

898
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: thanks for all you're doing as well. Psychoactive is a

899
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted

900
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: by me Ethan Needelman. It's produced by Kacha Kumkova and

901
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: Ben Kibrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel,

902
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams

903
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick for I Art Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman.

904
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blusian and a special thanks

905
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: to a vit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty.

906
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: If you'd like to share your own stories, comments or ideas,

907
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: please leave us a message at eight three three seven

908
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three psycho zero.

909
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 1: You can also email us as Psychoactive at protozoa dot

910
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And

911
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: if you couldn't keep track of all this, find the

912
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: information in the show notes next week we'll be talking

913
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: about e cigarettes and vaping with Clyde Bates, perhaps the

914
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: world's leading expert about tobacco control, e cigarettes and harm reduction.

915
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: We should have a ruling by then from the f

916
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: d A on which the cigarettes are going to allow,

917
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping we'll get Clive to react to that

918
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: in real time. Regardless, it will be a really important conversation.

919
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: So now, when I look at public opinion polls in

920
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: the United States, we now see that a majority of

921
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: Americans think that vaping or using a jewel or east

922
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: cigarette is as are more dangerous than cigarettes. So basically,

923
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: what you're saying is that these public perceptions are the

924
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: opposite of the truth. Those public perceptions are completely wrong,

925
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: and they are very dangerous because people act on the

926
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: basis of their perceptions, and if they hold those perceptions,

927
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: you would be indifferent to whether you're consuming nicotine by

928
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,760
Speaker 1: smoking or by vaping, and you should not be indifferent

929
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: about that. The health risks are radically different. Subscribe to

930
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: Cycleactive now see it all. Miss it