WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How Lobotomies Work 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.080 Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Saturday Stuff You Should Know 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.920 Select edition. Chuck here with my pick of the week, 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.200 all the way back to two thousand nine. Lobotomies. Man, 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:14.680 this one is ca crazy. This is one of us 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.480 is so good. I wish we could go back and 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:18.360 do it again for the first time. So much fun 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.600 to research, really interesting and grizzly history, medical history. Some 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.120 of my favorite stuff lies in those topics. And this 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.960 one is all about lobotomyes, man, oh man, just get 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.720 ready to learn about the frontal lobe ice pick lobotomy. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.560 Actually used to do that. Welcome to Stuff you Should 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:43.760 Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.760 to the podcast. It's called Stuff you Should Know. Uh, 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.879 it's Josh and Chuck comes in Long Beach together. Now 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.040 you know you're in trouble. What's Chuck think? How long 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.480 you even sitting on that one week? That's good? Thanks? 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.720 Thank you, Chuck. How you doing well, sir? Are you 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.320 pretty good? Don't feel great? Actually, Chuck? I mean glad 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:07.800 to be alive? Yes, so, Chuck. Yes, I think this 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:12.399 could arguably pan out to be our greatest podcast ever. No, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.120 I really don't think so, Chuck did the cheek thing 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.640 twice before this one was kind enough to do it 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.920 a second time. And I don't think we've ever had 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.480 a topic that Chuck and I were more intensely interested 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:25.640 in than this one. I know. It kind of just 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.720 came out of nowhere, and it's really well, not out 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.039 of nowhere, because it's historical, but um, in our eyes, 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.800 out of nowhere, which if funny, I say, in our eyes. Yeah, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.759 a little foreshadowing from Charles Bryant. Nice one, Chuck. If 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.080 you will get off of L O L Cats for 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.319 a second and go check your iTunes, you'll find that 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.200 the title of this one is how lobotomies work, and 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.160 that's what we're gonna be talking about. Our lobotomy is 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.840 so fascinating, it really is. Lobotomy is kind of exist 0:01:51.960 --> 0:02:00.000 in this little um segment of twentieth century culture medical madness. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.200 So I guess you could say right right, and pop culture, 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.280 because you still hear it being thrown around like boys 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.160 might lobotomize me, scramble my brain. But it's kind of 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.680 exactly the way it happened. Yeah, yeah, So, Chuck, you're 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.960 a lover of great cinema, right, of course, of course, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.280 you've seen one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, right, I 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.760 have a poster you do. Yeah, A good one. Yeah, 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.639 the one in Jack Nicholson laughing with the watch cap on. Yeah, 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.320 it's a good one. Um. So, of course you remember 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:29.360 the pivotal scene of the movie where McMurphy is um 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.840 lobotomized for being unruly, tries to kill Nurse Hatchet because 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.400 nurse Ratchet. Nurse Ratchet, Hatchet. That was a Freudian slip 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.760 right there. It was she was a hatchet. Yeah. Um so, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.080 uh she was mean and I'm totally with you. It 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.119 was a Freudian slip. Part that got me. I had 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:46.760 like eight chokes going in my head at once, and 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:48.360 I was like, I can't say that. I can't say that. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.480 I can't say that. It's like the Terminator exactly right. Yeah. 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.400 Um so yeah. So he tries to kill Nurse Ratchet 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.800 because she was a terrible nurse and kind of evil, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.919 very evil, And so he gets lobotomized and they don't 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.960 show the procedure. Don't worry if you ever want to 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.360 know what one was like, we're going to go into 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:12.320 grizzly detail a minute. Um. And he comes out just 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.400 kind of this drooling imbecile, which I have to remind 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:21.400 everybody was actually a medical term before it was imbecile, 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:27.919 moron an idiot? Were all degrees of mental retardation? Aren't 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.119 that weird? Yeah? Of course this is at the same 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.200 time that people were performing lobotomy, so it seems like 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.560 very archaic, even though it wasn't that long ago. Yeah, well, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.360 let's set the scene. Okay, all right, so we're talking 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.400 in the nineteen thirties, and the nineteen thirties were a 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.280 terrible time to be nuts. Basically, you got locked up 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.480 in a straight jacket to keep you from eating your 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.200 own feces um or throwing it at orderlies or doing 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.800 anything really crazy. And that was about it. Um. They 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:02.640 had certain um, certain techniques like shock therapy. Right, what 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.680 do they use? Uh they still use shock therapy here 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.160 and there actually so well you have like electro convulsive therapy, 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:15.840 and you had apparently they also used to use insulin. Okay, insulin, right, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.279 we know how bad that is from I can't remember 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.240 one of our aging podcasts, right, Um. And they would 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.400 basically inject a hefty dose of insulin into a patient. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.760 Um too, the okay, chuck my paper wrestling was going 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.960 to get the wrath. They they know we used crib sheets, 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.120 buddy um. So they inject a patient with the hefty 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:43.240 dose of insulin and um would basically shock their system, 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.120 possibly causing convulsions. There was another drug was just to 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.080 subdue them. Hold on, I'm getting to that. This is 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.800 the craziest part. This is this was the grasp that 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.560 medical science had on mental illness at the time. There's 0:04:55.600 --> 0:05:01.480 another drug called metrozol which was a respiratory and um 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.440 circulatory stimulant, and the hefty doses it to produce shock 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.560 and convulsions. So if you'll notice, all three of these 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.160 produced convulsions shock therapy. And the reason that they did 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.120 that was because there was a suspicion that there is 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:19.640 a link between epilepsy, convulsions, and mental illness and that 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:21.919 if you had one, you couldn't have the other. So 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:28.440 by producing convulsions, they thought that they were treating mental illness. Unbelievable. Yeah, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.400 so you could have just had epilepsy and that that 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.360 they would set you in the electro convulsive shock therapy 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.320 chair and to treat you. Yeah, they'd stick a little 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.600 paddle in your mouth and turn on the juice. Tell 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.960 you what, man, I like. I sometimes look back and say, 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:42.839 by the nineteen fifties, that would have been cool to 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:44.960 lift back then. But then you hear stories like this 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.719 and you kind of forget about the downside. Yeah, ect 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.960 is definitely one of the downside idea of this era, 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.480 right alright. So um, another problem with this was that 0:05:55.640 --> 0:06:00.560 the mental um mental care. Wow, have you had lobotomy? 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.000 I had a little bit of and yeah, um no, 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.200 I had some metro's all earlier. I'm all jacked up. Um. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:11.040 The the the state of mental hospitals in the US 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:13.920 in the in the thirties and forties was that they 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.359 were overcrowded, right, because I mean, if you can't treat anybody, really, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.800 you can't treat their mental illness, which they come in 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:25.359 there in yeah, right. They wanted docile patients, they wanted 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.880 people that didn't cause trouble and really anyway that they 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.560 could get there was kind of okay at the time. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.359 And this right, and this was also before drug therapy 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:38.000 was created. So in the thirties, nineteen thirty six, this 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.800 new procedure comes about, right, Well, it was the thirty 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.960 in Portugal you're right. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, that 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:52.479 was doctor Antonio IGAs Monies and Dr Almida Lima in Portugal. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.080 H performed the first lobotomies by drilling holes into the 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:00.640 skull on either side of the preforntal cortex and injecting 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.360 alcohol in there to destroy the fibers connected it. And 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.920 this was actually based on UM an earlier study from 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:12.520 nineteen thirty three by a couple of Yale researchers who 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.560 removed the prefrontal cortex is from a pair of monkeys 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:21.160 and the other one Binky will say yeah. Um, these 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.320 two monkeys had their prefrontal cortex core texas removed and um. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.360 The researchers found that they could still They still had intellect, 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.840 but they were lacking the emotion that led to violent 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.840 outbursts when they didn't get their way. Zecky, by the way, 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.240 I like Binky better. Um can we stay with Binky? Okay? 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:45.360 So the the doctor um, oh, the Portugue Fulton and Carlisle. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.000 I'll know you're going back to Portugal. Yeah. Dr Moniz 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.240 saw Fulton present um. One of the Yale researchers saw 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.840 Fulton present his findings and he thought, huh, my mental 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.840 patients act like monkeys, you know, violent outbursts when they 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.440 don't you know, when they see things that aren't really there. Right, 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.600 So let me get my hands on a cadaver and 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.640 see what I can see, what I can work out 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.400 with the brain. So this early, this early, uh, it 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.000 was called the prefrontal lobotomy. Right, started out, like you said, 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.440 by drilling holes in the school and adding alcohol. And 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.880 the whole reason why chuck the prefrontal cortex. Why the 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.440 frontal lobe? What's so important about that? Well, the pre 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.800 funnel lobe. But cortex, Josh has a number of complex functions, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.160 um called executive functions is what they're known as. We're 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:38.480 talking high level decision making, planning, reasoning, understanding. Personality, it's 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.600 personal expression, that right thing. So basically your personality, the 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.679 way you create things, the way you see the world 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.960 and how you react to the world, g emotions, Right, 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.880 this is all this is all generated here. It's originates 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.439 in the prefrontal court. And you're stabbing the front of 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.559 your head right now you speaking, uh. And so that 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:59.839 as we all know that the brain is connected, it's 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.439 all connected together, sending and receiving signals like like mass email. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.400 And uh so, what you have here, You've got two 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.800 types of matter, gray and white matter. Gray matter includes 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.680 neurons and brain cells and blood vessels and things like that. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:20.360 White matter is axons and nerve fibers, and they connect 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:25.559 the gray matter and carry messages with electric impulses. So 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.679 what the gray matters where these impulses are generated. The 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.920 white matter translates them or transfers them, transmits, It transmits 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.120 one of the trans uh so, a lobotomy. What that 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.880 does is it is intended to sever the white matter 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.760 between the different areas of gray matter, thus interrupting the 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:48.920 transmission essentially, right, And the problem um with dr monies 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.720 is technique. The early technique using alcohol is like you said, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.040 the brains all connected, and alcohol being a liquid, it's 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.120 kind of hard to keep in one place. So it 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.640 started to go and destroy other area, is it, right, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.000 A very good idea. But he was onto something. He 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.640 was onto something by destroying the white matter, right, yes, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.880 So instead he decided to be a little more precise 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.360 and he kept with the whole drilling method is actually 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.800 based on an ancient um ancient method of brain surgery 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.920 called trepidation, right, which actually what gosh, we could. I'm 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.040 going to be in trouble here. We had a fan 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.560 right in and suggest trepidation and that's what got me 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.720 on the botomies in the first place. And I apologize. 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:30.920 So if you're out there listening, oh you don't remember 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.840 the fan, thank you, nameless fan. We love you, Binky, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:58.240 thanks Binky or Becky uh um. Yeah. And actually in 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.640 the article how the botomies work, um, there's a cool 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:06.960 relief from a horonymous box Um painting of some early 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.360 physician trepanning a patient and he's got like a little 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.840 segment of the skull lifted off in the brain's exposed 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.680 and he's just poking around in there. Um. But okay, 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.360 so he's still dr Monez is still using the drilling method, 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:25.320 but now he's inserting instruments in there. He inserted this 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.920 one that sounded like, Um, it's a handle with a 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.200 little loopy wire that comes out. But yes, so when 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.520 you when you push it, when you push down the 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.640 back of it, the loop extends out, and then you 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.000 can pull it in and just basically removed hunks of 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.960 prefrontal cortex of white matter, right, And that's exactly what 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.840 hopefully it didn't matter. Yeah, you would sing UM and 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.920 it was successful. Well yeah, to to again, to varying 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.079 degrees and maybe not again because I think that's the 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.000 first time we've said that. But yeah, the the lobotomy 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.160 was successful to varying degrees, very varying degrees. But there 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.600 was this guy who went and saw UM dr monies 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.120 perform one of these. Yeah, this work gets good. And 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.439 this guy was named Dr Walter Freeman. And for probably 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.160 about what fifty thousand people uh in the U s Alone, 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.960 this meeting between these two men was the worst thing 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.040 that ever happened in the history of humanity, because that's 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.520 about how many people were lobotomized between for about over 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.480 about a seven year period in the US. Was it 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.559 just seven years? Wow? Okay, heavy work, So then there 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.520 was many many more actually um. But yeah, the Dr 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:46.199 Walter Freeman became an immediate UM evangelists. He was called 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:53.679 for lobotomies. UM. He he tried monies as technique with 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.000 a with a partner UM and did it successfully for 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.320 a while. But the problem is it was still surgery, right, 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.800 It required a surgeon to do it um operating room. Right. 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.720 If Freeman was actually not a neurosurgeon. He was a neurologist, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.400 required anesthetic. Yeah, so there there were some some drawbacks 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.800 to it in Freeman's of pin right, expense being one 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:18.200 of them. Time and resources. So he created something that 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.240 was a lot handier, a lot easier, and a lot quicker, 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.320 and that is what we call the transorbital or ice 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.600 pick lobotomy, Right, Can I say what this is? He 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:33.960 determined that if you took something which is technically called 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.800 an orbital class, but it really looks sort of like 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.040 an ice pick. You said it yesterday on our webcasts. 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.000 It's a nice pick. Uh, call it a rose by 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.120 any other name exactly. So you put this ice pick 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.320 over over the eyeball, but under the bone there what's 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.040 that called Between the eyeball and the eyelid, The eyeball 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.280 on the island until the back of the orbital bone. Right, 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:57.720 So once you get to the back of the ordable 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.760 orbital bone, there's a little resist sense there because it's bone, 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.200 and so enter a little silver hammer and so he 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.920 just tinks on that thing until it cracks through and 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.160 then he's got a pretty clean passageway to the frontal cortex. 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:13.800 And so you've got an ice pick sticking out of 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.760 your eye. He uh, he scrambles it up a little 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:19.800 bit once it's in there, and then he does the 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.080 same thing on the other side, and uh, ten minutes 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.800 later you're lobotomized, literally, so he do both sides right right, Um, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.960 he got kind of good at this. Yeah, Dr Freeman 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.440 got really I guess you could say good at this, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.800 or at least very fast. Um. In one two week 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:43.600 period in West Virginia, he performed lobotomies on people, and 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:48.280 in one day, he performed lobotomies on twenty five patients, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.200 right one day and one day. So he's just basically 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.120 bringing him in and sending him out. He's exactly doing that. Actually, 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:56.840 I read an interview with one of his assistants at 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.760 the time and he said he would literally not take breaks. 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.720 As the patient left, another one would be brought in 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.960 ten minutes later boom. And I don't think we mentioned yet. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.800 He he before he does this, he doesn't use anesthetic. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.600 He knocks them out with electro shock, right. So it's 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:17.600 making use of two extremely primitive and violent techniques right time. 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.920 And the result was, like we said, varied, I mean, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.000 it ranged anywhere from people being satisfied, and you know, 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.000 seemingly successful, like a highly emotional people suicidal all of 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.400 a sudden, being more docile and not so worried to 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:39.280 uh to death and people rendered vegetables literally. So yeah, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.920 well doctor the map. Dr Freeman actually referred to lobotomyes 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.640 um informally as soul surgery. Yeah. I hate that. The 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.800 reason why is because he was basically removing what kind 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.720 of what makes us human. People could still function under 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.720 successful abotomy. People could still function, they could still talk, 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.320 but they weren't They weren't doing anything, they weren't bringing 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.440 anything to the table. There was no reason for them 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.400 to exist so much anymore for the personality surgery exactly right, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.880 um and uh he would uh he did it um 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.840 again so fast, it's so so often. And he had 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.000 a touch of a showman to him that he basically did. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.320 He had a lobotomobile in which he performed demonstrations. Right. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.880 He toured the country, went all over the place. I 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.960 think he ended up doing. Estimates run from two thousand 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:34.120 to five thousand. Between nineteen forty six and nineteen sixty seven, 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:38.080 transorbital lobotomies UM in twenty three states in the US right, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.240 he'd performed with both hands. He would stick the ice 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.520 picks in with both hands at once to add a 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.520 little flare, but showmanship. Yeah, so he was basically performing shows, 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.000 lobotomy shows. Um. And not everybody reacted well to these. Um. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:56.160 There was seasoned surgeons who had seen tons of gore 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.680 and blood and horrible things in their lifetimes. Um would 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.840 commit watching these things. Some had to leave. Um. There 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.480 was a nurse whose account I read of watching a 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.320 lobotomy said, uh, the when he moved the ice picks 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:15.399 back and forth, it made the sound of tearing cloth. Um. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.119 Later on in the USSR, which actually banned lobotomies, and 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:26.480 I think nineteen which is embarrassing. Yeah, well fourteen years 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:32.320 before we did right. Yeah. Um, a physician named Nikolai 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:40.120 or serinsky Sky thanks Dudski um he called. He said 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.880 that lobotomies violate the principles of humanity and change an 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.600 insane person into an idiot. Again remember a medical tournament 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:52.160 at the time. Um. So there I imagine that there 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:58.199 was something that affected you. Were you human being, like 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.880 a real human being? See being? This this rough violent, 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:07.040 um misguided or unguided procedure being performed that it would 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.760 affect you in some way, like some very primal party 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.480 of you would say, that's not supposed to happen, right, Plus, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:17.080 there was no official scientific basis for this. It was basically, hey, 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.919 look at the result in some cases, that is what 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.359 they were kind of basing this whole thing on. And also, 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.040 as we were saying about Freeman being a showman and 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.119 doing it so fast, there was one visit to a 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.679 mental institution in Iowa. I don't remember what year it was, um, 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:38.040 but Freeman killed three people in one visit, and one 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.639 of the people this is so awful, um, he was 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.720 doing his little show off thing with the two picks 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.800 at once. Instead of as his own procedure dictated one 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.360 and then the other side. He he was doing two 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.280 picks at once. So the patients on the table um 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.160 with two ice picks sticking out of his eyes, and 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.240 Freeman says, I'm going to take a photo of this, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:18:59.400 steps back to take a photo. One of the ice 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:04.080 picks slips and kills the patient instantly. So apparently Freeman 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.040 was said to have basically just packed up right then 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:08.919 and moved on to the next place without missing a 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.520 bead or staying geez, that packed up the lobotomobile. Yeah, 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.840 hit the you know one person he lobotomized, Josh, I 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:20.840 know you do. He lobotomized John F. Kennedy's sister, Rosemary Dr. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.800 Freeman did in one. Uh. Rosemary was twenty three years 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.240 old and uh, early on her childhood she was shy 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.880 and easy going, they say, but as a teenager, shocker, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.480 she became rebellious and moody, which and that's what struck 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.000 me in a lot of these cases is so many 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.600 of them, we're just normal human emotions, like anything from 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:45.600 postpartum depression to you know, an overactive child. You know, 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.480 it's just unbelievable. So she was lobotomized and uh afterward 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.240 was rendered Basically, she couldn't speak, she had the mental 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.560 capacity of an infant, couldn't control her bodily functions, and 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.800 the Kennedy family basically from that point on said that 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.719 she uh was mentally retarded, which they claimed that she 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.680 may have been before, but who knows. You want to 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.119 talk about another guy, Howie Chuck and I have a 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:17.920 shared hero. He is an indomitable three fifty pounds six 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:23.640 ft three bus driver who has this gentle tender personality, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.119 and his name is Howard Dully. And at the age 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:32.359 of twelve, Howard Dully met Dr Freeman under unfortunate circumstances, 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.760 meaning Dr Freeman had a couple of ice picks on 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:39.320 him when they met, and um, Howard ended up under 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.119 Freeman's care because of his stepmother, right chuck, Yeah, he 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:45.760 It was the kind of the classic story the father 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.879 gets remarried to a stepmother who is not very patient 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.800 and understanding with her son. That sounded like, you know, 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.720 it sounds like he may have been a little ryanbunctious, 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:56.840 but what twelve year old boy isn't. And I think 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.240 you have some good notes, actual notes. Yeah, well in 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.040 Freeman's notes that Dully turned up later, and we should say, 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.920 how are Dully created this great radio piece that's an MPR. 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.240 You can actually find um by typing in my lobotomy 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.239 and Google. I think it's the first thing that comes up. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:14.960 It's one of the most amazing things you've ever heard, 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.919 where he just goes and retraces the steps of his 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.480 lobotomy that he got when he was twelve and tries 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.760 to get to the bottom of what happened. We typically 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.000 don't recommend people go listen to other things that it's 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.200 not us, but that's how good it is, right, yeah, exactly, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.080 it is that good. Uh, it's way better than us actually. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.199 Um But he finds the Dr. Freeman's notes on his 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:40.280 case and apparently a stepmother pled her case to get 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.359 him lobotomized by pointing out that he daydreams a lot, 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:46.840 and when you ask him what he's daydreaming about, he says, 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.520 I don't know. Uh, he doesn't want to go to bed, 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.160 and when he does, he sleeps well. In my personal favorite, 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.439 he turns on the lights in rooms when there's broad 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:03.080 daylight streaming in unbelievable. I know that kid deserves the lobotomy. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:04.879 But one of the things that I think one of 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.560 the reasons why you and I both look up to 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:12.120 Howard Dolly, it was because he has wondered his whole 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.440 life how different would he be Like I lived hard 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:22.760 and fast as a younger man, right right, Yeah, actually, 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.680 way way harder and faster. Um so, But I've I've 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.359 often wondered, you know, how much sharper would I be 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.280 had I not lived like that? But this is my 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.400 own doing, It was my own choosing. Howard Dolly had 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:37.640 to think that same thing, like, is there something wrong 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.800 with me? Is there a part of me missing through 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.600 no choice or fault of his own? We should also 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.119 say that, Um, when Howard's stepmother found that he was 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.119 not a vegetable, she just got him out of the 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.320 house and he became a ward of the state. So 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:56.199 he went all around lady. Yeah, so um again in 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.600 the end, he finds, you know, there there really isn't 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.760 something wrong within the he he's a pretty terrific persons 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.320 as he as it turned out, lobotomy or not right. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:05.680 It took him a long time though. I mean he 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.560 battled addiction and various forms of mental illness his whole 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.119 life after this, and uh, I think going this the 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.360 special that air, and he wrote a book and went 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.399 and talked to his father. After forty years, he actually 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.320 finally spoke to his dad about it, and that seems 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.000 to have been the thing to get him over the 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.600 edge to not feeling like a freak anymore. As he 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.600 called it. Yeah, you can actually hear him working it 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.480 out in my lobotomy. Yeah, a big deep voice. Yeah, 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.760 he sounds kind of like Sam, not Sam Shepherdson. What's 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:39.560 the guy? Uh, the big Lebowski Sam Elliott, Sam Elliott, Yeah, 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:42.320 that's what are you reminded me of the dude. Yeah. 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.080 He also had that big mustache to sort of like 0:23:44.119 --> 0:24:11.639 Sam Ellie, that handlebar biker mustache. So, uh, chuck. Whatever 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.840 happened to lobotomies? Why where? Why did they go the 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.840 way of the dinosaur? Just go? Well? Uh, A couple 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:19.880