1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,080
Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Saturday Stuff You Should Know

2
00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: Select edition. Chuck here with my pick of the week,

3
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: all the way back to two thousand nine. Lobotomies. Man,

4
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,680
Speaker 1: this one is ca crazy. This is one of us

5
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,480
Speaker 1: is so good. I wish we could go back and

6
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: do it again for the first time. So much fun

7
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,600
Speaker 1: to research, really interesting and grizzly history, medical history. Some

8
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 1: of my favorite stuff lies in those topics. And this

9
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,960
Speaker 1: one is all about lobotomyes, man, oh man, just get

10
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: ready to learn about the frontal lobe ice pick lobotomy.

11
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,560
Speaker 1: Actually used to do that. Welcome to Stuff you Should

12
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 1: Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome

13
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: to the podcast. It's called Stuff you Should Know. Uh,

14
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,879
Speaker 1: it's Josh and Chuck comes in Long Beach together. Now

15
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: you know you're in trouble. What's Chuck think? How long

16
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: you even sitting on that one week? That's good? Thanks?

17
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Chuck. How you doing well, sir? Are you

18
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: pretty good? Don't feel great? Actually, Chuck? I mean glad

19
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 1: to be alive? Yes, so, Chuck. Yes, I think this

20
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,399
Speaker 1: could arguably pan out to be our greatest podcast ever. No,

21
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,120
Speaker 1: I really don't think so, Chuck did the cheek thing

22
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,640
Speaker 1: twice before this one was kind enough to do it

23
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,920
Speaker 1: a second time. And I don't think we've ever had

24
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 1: a topic that Chuck and I were more intensely interested

25
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: in than this one. I know. It kind of just

26
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 1: came out of nowhere, and it's really well, not out

27
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,039
Speaker 1: of nowhere, because it's historical, but um, in our eyes,

28
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, which if funny, I say, in our eyes. Yeah,

29
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 1: a little foreshadowing from Charles Bryant. Nice one, Chuck. If

30
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 1: you will get off of L O L Cats for

31
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,319
Speaker 1: a second and go check your iTunes, you'll find that

32
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,200
Speaker 1: the title of this one is how lobotomies work, and

33
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna be talking about. Our lobotomy is

34
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 1: so fascinating, it really is. Lobotomy is kind of exist

35
00:01:51,960 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 1: in this little um segment of twentieth century culture medical madness.

36
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 1: So I guess you could say right right, and pop culture,

37
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 1: because you still hear it being thrown around like boys

38
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: might lobotomize me, scramble my brain. But it's kind of

39
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,680
Speaker 1: exactly the way it happened. Yeah, yeah, So, Chuck, you're

40
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: a lover of great cinema, right, of course, of course,

41
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: you've seen one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, right, I

42
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 1: have a poster you do. Yeah, A good one. Yeah,

43
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,639
Speaker 1: the one in Jack Nicholson laughing with the watch cap on. Yeah,

44
00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 1: it's a good one. Um. So, of course you remember

45
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 1: the pivotal scene of the movie where McMurphy is um

46
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,840
Speaker 1: lobotomized for being unruly, tries to kill Nurse Hatchet because

47
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 1: nurse Ratchet. Nurse Ratchet, Hatchet. That was a Freudian slip

48
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,760
Speaker 1: right there. It was she was a hatchet. Yeah. Um so,

49
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,080
Speaker 1: uh she was mean and I'm totally with you. It

50
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,119
Speaker 1: was a Freudian slip. Part that got me. I had

51
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: like eight chokes going in my head at once, and

52
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,360
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't say that. I can't say that.

53
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 1: I can't say that. It's like the Terminator exactly right. Yeah.

54
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 1: Um so yeah. So he tries to kill Nurse Ratchet

55
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: because she was a terrible nurse and kind of evil,

56
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 1: very evil, And so he gets lobotomized and they don't

57
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,960
Speaker 1: show the procedure. Don't worry if you ever want to

58
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,360
Speaker 1: know what one was like, we're going to go into

59
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 1: grizzly detail a minute. Um. And he comes out just

60
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 1: kind of this drooling imbecile, which I have to remind

61
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: everybody was actually a medical term before it was imbecile,

62
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:27,919
Speaker 1: moron an idiot? Were all degrees of mental retardation? Aren't

63
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,119
Speaker 1: that weird? Yeah? Of course this is at the same

64
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 1: time that people were performing lobotomy, so it seems like

65
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: very archaic, even though it wasn't that long ago. Yeah, well,

66
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 1: let's set the scene. Okay, all right, so we're talking

67
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,400
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, and the nineteen thirties were a

68
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 1: terrible time to be nuts. Basically, you got locked up

69
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 1: in a straight jacket to keep you from eating your

70
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 1: own feces um or throwing it at orderlies or doing

71
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,800
Speaker 1: anything really crazy. And that was about it. Um. They

72
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 1: had certain um, certain techniques like shock therapy. Right, what

73
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: do they use? Uh they still use shock therapy here

74
00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 1: and there actually so well you have like electro convulsive therapy,

75
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: and you had apparently they also used to use insulin. Okay, insulin, right,

76
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 1: we know how bad that is from I can't remember

77
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: one of our aging podcasts, right, Um. And they would

78
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: basically inject a hefty dose of insulin into a patient.

79
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 1: Um too, the okay, chuck my paper wrestling was going

80
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 1: to get the wrath. They they know we used crib sheets,

81
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 1: buddy um. So they inject a patient with the hefty

82
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,240
Speaker 1: dose of insulin and um would basically shock their system,

83
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 1: possibly causing convulsions. There was another drug was just to

84
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,080
Speaker 1: subdue them. Hold on, I'm getting to that. This is

85
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 1: the craziest part. This is this was the grasp that

86
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: medical science had on mental illness at the time. There's

87
00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,480
Speaker 1: another drug called metrozol which was a respiratory and um

88
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 1: circulatory stimulant, and the hefty doses it to produce shock

89
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: and convulsions. So if you'll notice, all three of these

90
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,160
Speaker 1: produced convulsions shock therapy. And the reason that they did

91
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 1: that was because there was a suspicion that there is

92
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,640
Speaker 1: a link between epilepsy, convulsions, and mental illness and that

93
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,919
Speaker 1: if you had one, you couldn't have the other. So

94
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 1: by producing convulsions, they thought that they were treating mental illness. Unbelievable. Yeah,

95
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: so you could have just had epilepsy and that that

96
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: they would set you in the electro convulsive shock therapy

97
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,320
Speaker 1: chair and to treat you. Yeah, they'd stick a little

98
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,600
Speaker 1: paddle in your mouth and turn on the juice. Tell

99
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 1: you what, man, I like. I sometimes look back and say,

100
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,839
Speaker 1: by the nineteen fifties, that would have been cool to

101
00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: lift back then. But then you hear stories like this

102
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 1: and you kind of forget about the downside. Yeah, ect

103
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,960
Speaker 1: is definitely one of the downside idea of this era,

104
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,480
Speaker 1: right alright. So um, another problem with this was that

105
00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 1: the mental um mental care. Wow, have you had lobotomy?

106
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 1: I had a little bit of and yeah, um no,

107
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 1: I had some metro's all earlier. I'm all jacked up. Um.

108
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 1: The the the state of mental hospitals in the US

109
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,920
Speaker 1: in the in the thirties and forties was that they

110
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,359
Speaker 1: were overcrowded, right, because I mean, if you can't treat anybody, really,

111
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: you can't treat their mental illness, which they come in

112
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,359
Speaker 1: there in yeah, right. They wanted docile patients, they wanted

113
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 1: people that didn't cause trouble and really anyway that they

114
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: could get there was kind of okay at the time.

115
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,359
Speaker 1: And this right, and this was also before drug therapy

116
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 1: was created. So in the thirties, nineteen thirty six, this

117
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: new procedure comes about, right, Well, it was the thirty

118
00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 1: in Portugal you're right. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, that

119
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:52,479
Speaker 1: was doctor Antonio IGAs Monies and Dr Almida Lima in Portugal.

120
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: H performed the first lobotomies by drilling holes into the

121
00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 1: skull on either side of the preforntal cortex and injecting

122
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,360
Speaker 1: alcohol in there to destroy the fibers connected it. And

123
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 1: this was actually based on UM an earlier study from

124
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three by a couple of Yale researchers who

125
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 1: removed the prefrontal cortex is from a pair of monkeys

126
00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 1: and the other one Binky will say yeah. Um, these

127
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: two monkeys had their prefrontal cortex core texas removed and um.

128
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 1: The researchers found that they could still They still had intellect,

129
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: but they were lacking the emotion that led to violent

130
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,840
Speaker 1: outbursts when they didn't get their way. Zecky, by the way,

131
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,240
Speaker 1: I like Binky better. Um can we stay with Binky? Okay?

132
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: So the the doctor um, oh, the Portugue Fulton and Carlisle.

133
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 1: I'll know you're going back to Portugal. Yeah. Dr Moniz

134
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 1: saw Fulton present um. One of the Yale researchers saw

135
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 1: Fulton present his findings and he thought, huh, my mental

136
00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 1: patients act like monkeys, you know, violent outbursts when they

137
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 1: don't you know, when they see things that aren't really there. Right,

138
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: So let me get my hands on a cadaver and

139
00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,640
Speaker 1: see what I can see, what I can work out

140
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,400
Speaker 1: with the brain. So this early, this early, uh, it

141
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: was called the prefrontal lobotomy. Right, started out, like you said,

142
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,440
Speaker 1: by drilling holes in the school and adding alcohol. And

143
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: the whole reason why chuck the prefrontal cortex. Why the

144
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 1: frontal lobe? What's so important about that? Well, the pre

145
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: funnel lobe. But cortex, Josh has a number of complex functions,

146
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: um called executive functions is what they're known as. We're

147
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 1: talking high level decision making, planning, reasoning, understanding. Personality, it's

148
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 1: personal expression, that right thing. So basically your personality, the

149
00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,679
Speaker 1: way you create things, the way you see the world

150
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 1: and how you react to the world, g emotions, Right,

151
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,880
Speaker 1: this is all this is all generated here. It's originates

152
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 1: in the prefrontal court. And you're stabbing the front of

153
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,559
Speaker 1: your head right now you speaking, uh. And so that

154
00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,839
Speaker 1: as we all know that the brain is connected, it's

155
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,439
Speaker 1: all connected together, sending and receiving signals like like mass email.

156
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: And uh so, what you have here, You've got two

157
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 1: types of matter, gray and white matter. Gray matter includes

158
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,680
Speaker 1: neurons and brain cells and blood vessels and things like that.

159
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 1: White matter is axons and nerve fibers, and they connect

160
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,559
Speaker 1: the gray matter and carry messages with electric impulses. So

161
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 1: what the gray matters where these impulses are generated. The

162
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 1: white matter translates them or transfers them, transmits, It transmits

163
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: one of the trans uh so, a lobotomy. What that

164
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: does is it is intended to sever the white matter

165
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 1: between the different areas of gray matter, thus interrupting the

166
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 1: transmission essentially, right, And the problem um with dr monies

167
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: is technique. The early technique using alcohol is like you said,

168
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 1: the brains all connected, and alcohol being a liquid, it's

169
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 1: kind of hard to keep in one place. So it

170
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 1: started to go and destroy other area, is it, right,

171
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,000
Speaker 1: A very good idea. But he was onto something. He

172
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 1: was onto something by destroying the white matter, right, yes,

173
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 1: So instead he decided to be a little more precise

174
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,360
Speaker 1: and he kept with the whole drilling method is actually

175
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,800
Speaker 1: based on an ancient um ancient method of brain surgery

176
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: called trepidation, right, which actually what gosh, we could. I'm

177
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 1: going to be in trouble here. We had a fan

178
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,560
Speaker 1: right in and suggest trepidation and that's what got me

179
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 1: on the botomies in the first place. And I apologize.

180
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 1: So if you're out there listening, oh you don't remember

181
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 1: the fan, thank you, nameless fan. We love you, Binky,

182
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 1: thanks Binky or Becky uh um. Yeah. And actually in

183
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: the article how the botomies work, um, there's a cool

184
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 1: relief from a horonymous box Um painting of some early

185
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 1: physician trepanning a patient and he's got like a little

186
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 1: segment of the skull lifted off in the brain's exposed

187
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 1: and he's just poking around in there. Um. But okay,

188
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,360
Speaker 1: so he's still dr Monez is still using the drilling method,

189
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,320
Speaker 1: but now he's inserting instruments in there. He inserted this

190
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: one that sounded like, Um, it's a handle with a

191
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 1: little loopy wire that comes out. But yes, so when

192
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 1: you when you push it, when you push down the

193
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,640
Speaker 1: back of it, the loop extends out, and then you

194
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 1: can pull it in and just basically removed hunks of

195
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,960
Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex of white matter, right, And that's exactly what

196
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 1: hopefully it didn't matter. Yeah, you would sing UM and

197
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: it was successful. Well yeah, to to again, to varying

198
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,079
Speaker 1: degrees and maybe not again because I think that's the

199
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 1: first time we've said that. But yeah, the the lobotomy

200
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,160
Speaker 1: was successful to varying degrees, very varying degrees. But there

201
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: was this guy who went and saw UM dr monies

202
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 1: perform one of these. Yeah, this work gets good. And

203
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,439
Speaker 1: this guy was named Dr Walter Freeman. And for probably

204
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 1: about what fifty thousand people uh in the U s Alone,

205
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 1: this meeting between these two men was the worst thing

206
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 1: that ever happened in the history of humanity, because that's

207
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: about how many people were lobotomized between for about over

208
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 1: about a seven year period in the US. Was it

209
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,559
Speaker 1: just seven years? Wow? Okay, heavy work, So then there

210
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 1: was many many more actually um. But yeah, the Dr

211
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,199
Speaker 1: Walter Freeman became an immediate UM evangelists. He was called

212
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:53,679
Speaker 1: for lobotomies. UM. He he tried monies as technique with

213
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 1: a with a partner UM and did it successfully for

214
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 1: a while. But the problem is it was still surgery, right,

215
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 1: It required a surgeon to do it um operating room. Right.

216
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 1: If Freeman was actually not a neurosurgeon. He was a neurologist,

217
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,400
Speaker 1: required anesthetic. Yeah, so there there were some some drawbacks

218
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: to it in Freeman's of pin right, expense being one

219
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 1: of them. Time and resources. So he created something that

220
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: was a lot handier, a lot easier, and a lot quicker,

221
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,320
Speaker 1: and that is what we call the transorbital or ice

222
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 1: pick lobotomy, Right, Can I say what this is? He

223
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,960
Speaker 1: determined that if you took something which is technically called

224
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,800
Speaker 1: an orbital class, but it really looks sort of like

225
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 1: an ice pick. You said it yesterday on our webcasts.

226
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,000
Speaker 1: It's a nice pick. Uh, call it a rose by

227
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 1: any other name exactly. So you put this ice pick

228
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 1: over over the eyeball, but under the bone there what's

229
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 1: that called Between the eyeball and the eyelid, The eyeball

230
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,280
Speaker 1: on the island until the back of the orbital bone. Right,

231
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,720
Speaker 1: So once you get to the back of the ordable

232
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,760
Speaker 1: orbital bone, there's a little resist sense there because it's bone,

233
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,200
Speaker 1: and so enter a little silver hammer and so he

234
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: just tinks on that thing until it cracks through and

235
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 1: then he's got a pretty clean passageway to the frontal cortex.

236
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: And so you've got an ice pick sticking out of

237
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: your eye. He uh, he scrambles it up a little

238
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 1: bit once it's in there, and then he does the

239
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 1: same thing on the other side, and uh, ten minutes

240
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 1: later you're lobotomized, literally, so he do both sides right right, Um,

241
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: he got kind of good at this. Yeah, Dr Freeman

242
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 1: got really I guess you could say good at this,

243
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 1: or at least very fast. Um. In one two week

244
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 1: period in West Virginia, he performed lobotomies on people, and

245
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 1: in one day, he performed lobotomies on twenty five patients,

246
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: right one day and one day. So he's just basically

247
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,120
Speaker 1: bringing him in and sending him out. He's exactly doing that. Actually,

248
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 1: I read an interview with one of his assistants at

249
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: the time and he said he would literally not take breaks.

250
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,720
Speaker 1: As the patient left, another one would be brought in

251
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 1: ten minutes later boom. And I don't think we mentioned yet.

252
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: He he before he does this, he doesn't use anesthetic.

253
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: He knocks them out with electro shock, right. So it's

254
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 1: making use of two extremely primitive and violent techniques right time.

255
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,920
Speaker 1: And the result was, like we said, varied, I mean,

256
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,000
Speaker 1: it ranged anywhere from people being satisfied, and you know,

257
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 1: seemingly successful, like a highly emotional people suicidal all of

258
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: a sudden, being more docile and not so worried to

259
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: uh to death and people rendered vegetables literally. So yeah,

260
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 1: well doctor the map. Dr Freeman actually referred to lobotomyes

261
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,640
Speaker 1: um informally as soul surgery. Yeah. I hate that. The

262
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 1: reason why is because he was basically removing what kind

263
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 1: of what makes us human. People could still function under

264
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 1: successful abotomy. People could still function, they could still talk,

265
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 1: but they weren't They weren't doing anything, they weren't bringing

266
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: anything to the table. There was no reason for them

267
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 1: to exist so much anymore for the personality surgery exactly right,

268
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 1: um and uh he would uh he did it um

269
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,840
Speaker 1: again so fast, it's so so often. And he had

270
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,000
Speaker 1: a touch of a showman to him that he basically did.

271
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 1: He had a lobotomobile in which he performed demonstrations. Right.

272
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 1: He toured the country, went all over the place. I

273
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 1: think he ended up doing. Estimates run from two thousand

274
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 1: to five thousand. Between nineteen forty six and nineteen sixty seven,

275
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 1: transorbital lobotomies UM in twenty three states in the US right,

276
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: he'd performed with both hands. He would stick the ice

277
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 1: picks in with both hands at once to add a

278
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: little flare, but showmanship. Yeah, so he was basically performing shows,

279
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 1: lobotomy shows. Um. And not everybody reacted well to these. Um.

280
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 1: There was seasoned surgeons who had seen tons of gore

281
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 1: and blood and horrible things in their lifetimes. Um would

282
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 1: commit watching these things. Some had to leave. Um. There

283
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 1: was a nurse whose account I read of watching a

284
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,320
Speaker 1: lobotomy said, uh, the when he moved the ice picks

285
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,399
Speaker 1: back and forth, it made the sound of tearing cloth. Um.

286
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,119
Speaker 1: Later on in the USSR, which actually banned lobotomies, and

287
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 1: I think nineteen which is embarrassing. Yeah, well fourteen years

288
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: before we did right. Yeah. Um, a physician named Nikolai

289
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:40,120
Speaker 1: or serinsky Sky thanks Dudski um he called. He said

290
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,880
Speaker 1: that lobotomies violate the principles of humanity and change an

291
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 1: insane person into an idiot. Again remember a medical tournament

292
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,160
Speaker 1: at the time. Um. So there I imagine that there

293
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:58,199
Speaker 1: was something that affected you. Were you human being, like

294
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,880
Speaker 1: a real human being? See being? This this rough violent,

295
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: um misguided or unguided procedure being performed that it would

296
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 1: affect you in some way, like some very primal party

297
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 1: of you would say, that's not supposed to happen, right, Plus,

298
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: there was no official scientific basis for this. It was basically, hey,

299
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,919
Speaker 1: look at the result in some cases, that is what

300
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 1: they were kind of basing this whole thing on. And also,

301
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: as we were saying about Freeman being a showman and

302
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 1: doing it so fast, there was one visit to a

303
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 1: mental institution in Iowa. I don't remember what year it was, um,

304
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: but Freeman killed three people in one visit, and one

305
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 1: of the people this is so awful, um, he was

306
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 1: doing his little show off thing with the two picks

307
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: at once. Instead of as his own procedure dictated one

308
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 1: and then the other side. He he was doing two

309
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 1: picks at once. So the patients on the table um

310
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 1: with two ice picks sticking out of his eyes, and

311
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 1: Freeman says, I'm going to take a photo of this,

312
00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: steps back to take a photo. One of the ice

313
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 1: picks slips and kills the patient instantly. So apparently Freeman

314
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: was said to have basically just packed up right then

315
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,919
Speaker 1: and moved on to the next place without missing a

316
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: bead or staying geez, that packed up the lobotomobile. Yeah,

317
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: hit the you know one person he lobotomized, Josh, I

318
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: know you do. He lobotomized John F. Kennedy's sister, Rosemary Dr.

319
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 1: Freeman did in one. Uh. Rosemary was twenty three years

320
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 1: old and uh, early on her childhood she was shy

321
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 1: and easy going, they say, but as a teenager, shocker,

322
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 1: she became rebellious and moody, which and that's what struck

323
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: me in a lot of these cases is so many

324
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: of them, we're just normal human emotions, like anything from

325
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: postpartum depression to you know, an overactive child. You know,

326
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable. So she was lobotomized and uh afterward

327
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 1: was rendered Basically, she couldn't speak, she had the mental

328
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 1: capacity of an infant, couldn't control her bodily functions, and

329
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: the Kennedy family basically from that point on said that

330
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,719
Speaker 1: she uh was mentally retarded, which they claimed that she

331
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,680
Speaker 1: may have been before, but who knows. You want to

332
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 1: talk about another guy, Howie Chuck and I have a

333
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,920
Speaker 1: shared hero. He is an indomitable three fifty pounds six

334
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 1: ft three bus driver who has this gentle tender personality,

335
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: and his name is Howard Dully. And at the age

336
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 1: of twelve, Howard Dully met Dr Freeman under unfortunate circumstances,

337
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: meaning Dr Freeman had a couple of ice picks on

338
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: him when they met, and um, Howard ended up under

339
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: Freeman's care because of his stepmother, right chuck, Yeah, he

340
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: It was the kind of the classic story the father

341
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 1: gets remarried to a stepmother who is not very patient

342
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 1: and understanding with her son. That sounded like, you know,

343
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: it sounds like he may have been a little ryanbunctious,

344
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 1: but what twelve year old boy isn't. And I think

345
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: you have some good notes, actual notes. Yeah, well in

346
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: Freeman's notes that Dully turned up later, and we should say,

347
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 1: how are Dully created this great radio piece that's an MPR.

348
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 1: You can actually find um by typing in my lobotomy

349
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,239
Speaker 1: and Google. I think it's the first thing that comes up.

350
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 1: It's one of the most amazing things you've ever heard,

351
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 1: where he just goes and retraces the steps of his

352
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 1: lobotomy that he got when he was twelve and tries

353
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what happened. We typically

354
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: don't recommend people go listen to other things that it's

355
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: not us, but that's how good it is, right, yeah, exactly,

356
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: it is that good. Uh, it's way better than us actually.

357
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,199
Speaker 1: Um But he finds the Dr. Freeman's notes on his

358
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: case and apparently a stepmother pled her case to get

359
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: him lobotomized by pointing out that he daydreams a lot,

360
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: and when you ask him what he's daydreaming about, he says,

361
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, he doesn't want to go to bed,

362
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 1: and when he does, he sleeps well. In my personal favorite,

363
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: he turns on the lights in rooms when there's broad

364
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: daylight streaming in unbelievable. I know that kid deserves the lobotomy.

365
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think one of

366
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: the reasons why you and I both look up to

367
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 1: Howard Dolly, it was because he has wondered his whole

368
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: life how different would he be Like I lived hard

369
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: and fast as a younger man, right right, Yeah, actually,

370
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 1: way way harder and faster. Um so, But I've I've

371
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: often wondered, you know, how much sharper would I be

372
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: had I not lived like that? But this is my

373
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 1: own doing, It was my own choosing. Howard Dolly had

374
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: to think that same thing, like, is there something wrong

375
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: with me? Is there a part of me missing through

376
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: no choice or fault of his own? We should also

377
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: say that, Um, when Howard's stepmother found that he was

378
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: not a vegetable, she just got him out of the

379
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: house and he became a ward of the state. So

380
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 1: he went all around lady. Yeah, so um again in

381
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: the end, he finds, you know, there there really isn't

382
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: something wrong within the he he's a pretty terrific persons

383
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: as he as it turned out, lobotomy or not right.

384
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: It took him a long time though. I mean he

385
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: battled addiction and various forms of mental illness his whole

386
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: life after this, and uh, I think going this the

387
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 1: special that air, and he wrote a book and went

388
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: and talked to his father. After forty years, he actually

389
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: finally spoke to his dad about it, and that seems

390
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: to have been the thing to get him over the

391
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: edge to not feeling like a freak anymore. As he

392
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: called it. Yeah, you can actually hear him working it

393
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: out in my lobotomy. Yeah, a big deep voice. Yeah,

394
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: he sounds kind of like Sam, not Sam Shepherdson. What's

395
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: the guy? Uh, the big Lebowski Sam Elliott, Sam Elliott, Yeah,

396
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: that's what are you reminded me of the dude. Yeah.

397
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: He also had that big mustache to sort of like

398
00:23:44,119 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: Sam Ellie, that handlebar biker mustache. So, uh, chuck. Whatever

399
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: happened to lobotomies? Why where? Why did they go the

400
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: way of the dinosaur? Just go? Well? Uh, A couple

401
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: of reasons. I mean, one, there was a lot of

402
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: gaining steam with the criticism of it because they found

403
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: that they were lobotomizing criminals. They were lobotomizing soldiers from

404
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: World War Two because criminals against their will sometimes right,

405
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: but they lobotomized soldiers because hospitals were overcrowded veterans unbelievable,

406
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: and so that that was kind of gaining steam. And

407
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: then the introduction of uh thorzine basically everything. Um. I

408
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: believe that somebody said that thorzine was to the treatment

409
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: of schizophrenia, that insulin I'm sorry, that penicillin was to

410
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 1: the treatment of infectious diseases, which is a pretty big comparison.

411
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: So thorazine was developed in nineteen fifty and as it

412
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: began to fall into widespread use. Um, lobotomy is kind

413
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: of fell out of widespread use, and Dr Freeman himself

414
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: he uh, he had one last one, one last lobotomy

415
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven, right, Yeah, he killed a woman

416
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: with the brain hemorrhage after the third try. I think

417
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: this is her third lobotomy, and uh, she wasn't just

418
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, some mental patient in Iowa. This is a housewife.

419
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: And when she died of I believe of hemorrhage after

420
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: the procedure, that third procedure, that was it. He was

421
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: banned from surgery performing any kind of surgery from that

422
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: that point on and actually spent the rest of his

423
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: days until he died in nineteen seventy two, traveling the

424
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: country and the camper, which if it was his lobotomobile, yeah,

425
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: I don't know. He wasn't pitching it. He was actually

426
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: going around trying to um find. He was visiting old

427
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: patients to prove that he had done good, and he

428
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: had done some good in a couple of of cases,

429
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: in several cases, I imagined. His first one was a

430
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: woman I can't remember her first name, but it was

431
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: ian Esco and she uh, she was violently suicidal, is

432
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: described by her daughter. And afterwards she went on to

433
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: to live a happy, fulfilled life. Yeah, but you know,

434
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: every every successful case I read about, they would say

435
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: things like they weren't violently suicidal anymore and they were just,

436
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: you know, kind of happy, but it still seemed to

437
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: be that lights wrong. But no one's home thing like

438
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: the couple the er, yeah, the married couple was. The

439
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: husband had his wife lobottom eyes because she was so

440
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: emotional and she was suicidal as well. Yeah, and she

441
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: says that she was happy as a clam and he

442
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: was satisfied. He said that she came home and she

443
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: never calls any more trouble and she was just happy

444
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: and she could still back talk. Yeah, she could still cooking,

445
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: clean and do all the things she could do before.

446
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: And she agreed, I just haven't been worried about things

447
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: since then. And she was in her eighties. But you know,

448
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: you read that, and emotions are normal, mood swings are normal.

449
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: It's agreed. But I do I do think that there

450
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: is a certain threshold and if you're violently suicidal, you know,

451
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: maybe a lobotomy was a better option. Yeah, But I

452
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: also want to know what the criteria for all this

453
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: was back then. There wasn't any so yeah, so put

454
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: that in your pipe. And but one of the most

455
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: unsettling things, one of the most unsettling things that I

456
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: found from this article is that lobotomies are still performed

457
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: today in England, right, the UK is one of a

458
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: few countries um where it's it's no longer called the

459
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: botomies because lobotomy is such a horrible stigma attached to it,

460
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: and for good reason, neurosurgery for a mental disorder and

461
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: m D and today apparently they use m r s

462
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: as guides to be more precise. But pretty much this

463
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: type of surgery, psychosurgery as it's called um is, it's

464
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: pretty much the same thing. It's destroying white matter connections

465
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: and you're removing people's emotional selves, right. I mean, there

466
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: may be something too to that, but certainly it was

467
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: so non specific and non technical to jam ice picks

468
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: and and just blindly move them back and forth. Said no,

469
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: wonder that was all kinds of results. So Chuck, we

470
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: are both kind of nuts. And I'm really glad it's

471
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: not like nineteen because yeah, yeah, my wife Emily and

472
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: I would both be on the the lobotomy table. I

473
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: think I drive you to the sea Freeman. Thanks, sure,

474
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Yeah. Well that's it. That's it for lobotomies, buddy. Yeah.

475
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: I encourage people to go out and listen to Howard

476
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: Dully's uh radio show there. It's really great. Hopefully you

477
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: guys enjoyed this one. You can read all about Lobotomyes

478
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: on how stuff works dot com. You know what to do.

479
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: Uh you know handy search bar, etcetera. Uh, and Chuck,

480
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: let's let's talk some audible stuff. So our sponsored audible

481
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: dot com hit it. Okay, So if everyone goes to www.

482
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: Dot audible podcast dot com slash stuff and sign up

483
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: to get one free download from audible dot COM's fifty

484
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: thousand plus titles of audio books, stand up comedy, spoken

485
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: word speeches, pretty much anything you can listen to is

486
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: right there. And I was on their browsing just this

487
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: morning and I found one of my all time favorite

488
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: books by Charles Mann Good One Great. One man runs

489
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: around um the America's basically two archaeological sites and gets

490
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: the scoop on the most recent findings and finds that

491
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: there were way more people in the America's before Columbus

492
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: showed up than we realized. Uh and yeah, there's a

493
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: lag between the arrival of Columbus uh to Hispaniola and

494
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: the second wave that followed within the next fifty years.

495
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: The second wave found that this, you know, that was

496
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: Virgin Territory. There's almost no one there. Turns out it's

497
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: because about a hundred million people died of smallpox from

498
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: Columbus's first arrival between then and the second wave. It's fascinating.

499
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: That's right there. You just did one. Well, maybe we'll

500
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: do a bigger sewed on it, a bigger said, Yeah,

501
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: what about you you've been on Yeah, I'm gonna recommend

502
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: uh just quickly. Stephen Colbert of the Colbert Rapport. Oh,

503
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: I saw his portraits National Gallery portrait. It was Catonian recently.

504
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: It was awesome with his familiar scowl. Yeah, I love

505
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: that guy. So yeah. He has a very popular book

506
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: that he reads himself called I'm an American and so

507
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: can You. And that's all I need to say about that.

508
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: It's hysterical. Nice check. So you can get either one

509
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: of those titles for free by going to www. Dot

510
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: audible podcast dot com slash stuff and signing up and

511
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: that is Audible right there, baby, let's do a listener.

512
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: Let's do it, Josh. I'm just gonna call this. We

513
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: got a lot of great feedback for the high fruit

514
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: toast corn Syrup. Yeah, so much so that we're gonna

515
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: have probably like three podcasts in a row. We're gonna

516
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: be reading soon that mail. I don't know what it is,

517
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: we should I can bring back Haikus, Okay, all right,

518
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna call it intelligent listener mail because

519
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: Max is a smart guy, and I like these most

520
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: of all. I'm a graduating senior in the Business College,

521
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: but when I'm not in class or listening to podcast,

522
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: I almost always enjoy listening to philosophy. It's more or

523
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: less my passion. More specifically, I'm interested in world religion,

524
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: medical metaphysical theory, and man's relationship to nature in the universe.

525
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: So this guy is obviously smarter than you to say

526
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: that fruit dose, corn syrup or any other man made

527
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: chemical compound does not occur naturally. You're speaking with the

528
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: basic assumption that man is something different than nature. Unfortunately,

529
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: for those who can find themselves above nature in a

530
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: portance or authority, this is not the case. It's our

531
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: Western culture and religion that strengthens this point of view.

532
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: Man didn't PLoP into nature is a separate and flawed

533
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: phenomenon in a stupid natural universe. Man came out of nature.

534
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Man is nature, Man is the universe. To borrow a

535
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: quote from my favorite philosopher Alan Watts, and you're seeing,

536
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: you're hearing, you're talking, you're thinking, you're moving. You express

537
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: that which it is which moves the sun and other stars.

538
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: So to perceive yourself as something different is only an

539
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: inability to identify yourself with the cosmos. So Josh Man's

540
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: manipulation of compounds is really the world's manipulation of itself,

541
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: or perhaps the universe manipulating itself. And that is certainly

542
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: a natural occurrence boom. And that is what happens when

543
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: I off handedly say something is man made nice? Well,

544
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: what's the guy's name? Max? And I think the philosophy too,

545
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: So I thought, what's gonna call? We dig you Max?

546
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: And we really dig anybody who sends us something, especially

547
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: if it's as intelligent as that. Uh. If you want

548
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: to show off your ginormous brain, send us an email

549
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: to Stuff Podcast at how stuff works dot com for

550
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it

551
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com