WEBVTT - We're All Awkward Creatures 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.880 My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I get my 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.080 assistantes at people and meeting? Why does my coworker keep 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.520 taking credit for all my idea? Have any wisdom for me? 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.720 Hi'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.520 I answer questions from listeners about life at work. Everything 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.640 from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.800 perfume to what to do if you drink too much 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.680 at the company party. Let's get started. I have to 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.800 confess I really love awkwardness. That might sound like a 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.479 weird thing to say, but I find awkward situations, including 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.760 my own, really funny and entertaining and in some way 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.440 kind of heartwarming. My favorite letters at the Aska Manager 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.800 website are the ones that involve awkwardness, like I once 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.240 published a letter from a woman who had accidentally hugged 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.360 her CEO on the elevator one morning. He was leaning 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.680 past her to hold the door open, and she thought 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:58.480 he was going in for a hug, so she just 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.760 went with it and embraced him. There was another letter 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.960 from a person who found out that her mom had 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.160 been emailing her boss to remind him that the daughter's 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:11.240 birthday was coming up soon. I love those stories, and really, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.880 so much of Aska Manager is about here's this uncomfortable, 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.520 potentially awkward situation. How do I handle it? And that 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.160 is probably what has kept me happily doing the column 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.759 for what eleven years at this point. Awkward situations are 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.959 just really interesting and entertaining, and they're so universal. We 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.880 all do things that make us cringe. Even the most 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.920 confident among us have those moments that still make our 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.520 faces turn red when we think about them weeks later. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.480 It happens to everyone, and it definitely happens at work. Today, 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.000 we have a special guest here to talk about awkwardness. 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.800 Melissa Doll is the author of the amazing book cringe Worthy, 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.520 A Theory of Awkwardness, and I think she loves awkwardness 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.960 as much as I do. Melissa, Welcome to the show. Hi, Hi, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.680 Thanks Alison, Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.240 have you here. You and I have talked about awkwardness before, 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.120 and I just absolutely love cringe Worthy. Can we talk 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.400 a bit about the book itself and then we'll just 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.560 talk all things awkward? Yeah that sounds great. Yeah, what 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.240 do you want to know? Well? I mean this is 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.800 basically the greatest idea for a book ever for people 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.200 who don't know it. Will you just describe it and 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.200 what made you want to write it? Yeah, so I 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.799 talk about awkward Actually, I feel like I don't know 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.320 if you are this way with your book. But sometimes, 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.839 like when people ask me to describe my book, it's 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.680 like it's like all words lead me and I'm like, um, um, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:39.480 I don't remember, but but I will do my best. Um. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.720 So it is. I am a writer for New York 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.640 magazine for The Cut, and I cover psychology primarily um 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.040 for The Cut, And I've written about psychology for the 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.519 last more than ten years. And one of the things 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.440 I've always really liked about the job is, you know, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.239 I'll have some kind of question about human nature why 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.800 do we do the things we do? And I get 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.280 to you, you know, call up somebody who has been 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.440 studying this for you know, for the last decade of 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.080 their life or so, and who can explain it to 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.519 me in a thoughtful way. But I kind of couldn't 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.960 find anything that explained the feeling of of cringing, the 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.080 feeling of awkwardness, you know, that that like just that 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.840 tension that kind of like permeates the room when someone's 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.280 like makes a joke and it doesn't go over well, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.400 or the thing where someone assumes someone else's expecting and 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.520 they're not. You know, I was just curious what could 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.280 explain the psychology behind that feeling. So this book is 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:37.960 kind of my attempt to do that. And let's actually 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.600 define awkwardness. How do you define it? I define it 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:47.240 as it's so it's embarrassment. It's it's like the self 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:51.360 conscious aspect of embarrassment. But I think what's different about 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.960 it and what sets it apart? Because it is it 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.600 is different, Like an awkward situation is not necessarily an 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.720 embarrassing situation. So I think it's the conscious aspect of embarrassment, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.720 but with this stronger undercurrent of uncertainty, you know, like 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.560 there's this element of what do I say next? What 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.440 do I do next? Like the social norms are not 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.160 here to guide me. So that's how I defined it 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.440 for the book. You came up with an overall theory 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.640 of awkwardness, which you have called cringe theory. Will you 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:25.360 talk about what cringe theory is? Yeah? So I really 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.400 have come to believe that cringing kind of causes us 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:35.720 to to ask some pretty surprisingly profound questions about ourselves. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:37.680 If you if you kind of pay attention to it, 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.640 I think it kind of makes us ask ourselves, who 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:45.080 are you? How how do other people perceive you? And 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:46.960 and who do you want to be? I think that 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.240 cringing are it's the moments that make us cringe. Are 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.440 these moments when we realize that the you that you 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.160 kind of carry in your own head, this perception of yourself, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.880 is maybe not necessarily the way the world is seeing. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.080 It's kind of the moment we realize there's a disconnect 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.240 between the person you're trying to present to the world 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.400 and what you actually look like to the people around you. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.520 So the idea is awkwardness is what happens when this 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.599 polished version of ourselves that we hope we're showing to 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.000 the world slips and we're exposed, and we worry that 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.760 people are seeing maybe who we really are, but the 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.760 parts that we prefer to hide. Yeah, exactly, exactly, So 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.680 it's kind of like, yeah, I'll just leave it there, exactly. 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.000 You talk in the book about the spotlight effect that 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.560 we assume that other people are paying more attention to 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.400 us than they really are. This is I would imagine, 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.119 probably at its peak when we're teenagers, but it stays 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.760 with us, right it does. Yeah, I mean actually interestingly, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.320 they do say that self consciousness kind of fades later 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.160 in adulthood, but certainly it's more of a human nature thing, 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.000 it's not just a teenage thing. Uh. The spotlight effect 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.640 is this idea that we think more people are paying 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.039 attention to us than actually are. And there's this classic 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.440 experiment where they tested this. They had somebody show up 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.400 to an experiment late. They kind of told them the 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.680 wrong time on purpose, and before they went in the room, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.880 they they gave him this really silly T shirt with 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.080 Barry Manilow's face on it. And so the person is 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:18.960 already late and they show up and they're wearing this 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.239 really silly T shirt. It's kind of this embarrassing moment. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.200 And then afterwards the experimenters interviewed, uh, all these folks 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.360 and they one of the things they asked them was 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.080 how many people do you think remembered your shirt? And 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.400 basically they thought, you know, maybe they thought ten people 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.360 would remember, um, but really only five people remembered. So 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:41.919 the kind of the moral of it is, it's interesting 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.400 a lot of times when people write and talk about 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.520 the spotlight effect, it's like the message that gets across 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.520 is like, oh, no one's paying attention to you, you know, 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.840 do whatever you want. It's it's not quite that. It's 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.760 it's just not as many people as we think are 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.480 are paying attention to our ridiculous mistakes. Yeah, I feel 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.360 like I see that and a lot of letters at 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:06.320 asking Manager that people are just really seized with worry 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.320 that everyone saw this relatively small, silly thing that they did. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.800 That You're right, the message can't be or don't worry 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.160 no one is ever paying attention because certainly quite often 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.440 people are. We just really overestimate I think how often 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.400 that's the case we do. It's just kind of you know, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.680 humans are kind of egocentric by nature, and all of 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.320 us have have that tendency to one degree or another. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.840 But it's interesting, it's so interesting to me the kind 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:35.480 of like link between awkwardness and kind of feeling uncomfortable 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:40.200 in social situations and egocentrism, because it's like it's it's like, 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.200 you're worried what people think about you, but you know, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.000 of course no one is thinking about you as much 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.040 as as much as you are, so, and I think 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.480 that's particularly can be true at work. Like you think, 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:53.560 oh my gosh, I made such an idiot out of 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.320 myself in that meeting. But no one's remembering what you said. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.560 They're remembering what what they said and whether it went 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.000 well or not. So yes, unless it was really egregious, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.520 I think that's usually the case. Yeah, right, Yeah, you 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.480 can't just make a blakant statement and say no one 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:12.200 ever remembers. But yeah, but people definitely think it's happening 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.480 more than it is. Let's take a quick break here, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.239 and when we come back, we're going to hear about 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.680 some real life awkward situations that Melissa put herself into 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.720 when she was writing the book, including a visit she 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:35.840 paid to a professional cuddler. One thing that is great 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.240 about the book is that not only do you really 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.040 delve into the science of awkwardness, but you also intentionally 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.280 went out and put yourself in really awkward situations so 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.160 that you could write about them. You did improv so 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.000 that you could write about it for the book, which 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.960 just makes you my hero. And you even set up 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.560 a session with a professional cuddler so that you could 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.960 write about it. I was laughing out loud when I 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:00.800 read that part of the book will you tell Us 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.640 about the Professional Cuddler? Because I just cringe thinking about it. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.000 Oh my gosh. So that that part of the book 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.040 I had. I was almost done. I was almost done 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.640 writing the book, and I had like, as you say, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.680 I had put myself into all these weird situations, and 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.480 it kind of did that just as an aside. That 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.200 was a later injection into the book. That's kind of 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.160 something people ask about a lot, like, oh, like, you know, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.560 you did all these things, But the first draft of 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.280 the book wasn't like that at all. The first draft 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.959 was more, um sharing other people's stories. And I kind 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.320 of like pulled it all together and looked at what 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.440 I had and I was like, oh, this just feels 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.560 kind of cruel to like be writing about like this 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.040 uncomfortable feeling from a distance, you know, like just to 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.920 tell other people's embarrassing stories. It's just it's sort of 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.320 weirdly didn't feel fair. And also it didn't feel as 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.320 emotional reading it. Um, I think like having some distance 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:59.679 between that that discomfort. So I decided to dive right in. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.120 But anyway, yeah, that the cuddler part came. I realized, 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.640 like the reason I wrote the book was, you know, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.480 in part because this feeling has driven me nuts for 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.480 most of my life. You know, I just feel like 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:18.040 I'm I'm often I'm just really sensitive to moments of awkwardness. 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.520 But by the end of writing this book, and you know, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.240 taking improv classes and doing all these crazy things, it's 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.280 like I just didn't feel it anymore. Like I would 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.199 I would just do things that people would be kind 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.480 of amazed at. You know, you talk a lot about 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.679 having uncomfortable conversations like work or or the kind of 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.839 wisdom of being direct at work, and that was something 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.040 I was always afraid of doing. But by the end 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.040 of writing this book, I just kind of would dive 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.840 right in. Sorry, I'm kind of I'm kind of digressing 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.160 away from the cuddler. But basically that was sort of 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.280 trying to get the feeling back in a way to 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.440 be like, you know, like, uh, what will work, Like 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.960 will anything make me feel awkward again? And that was 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.240 the thing that broke me. It was so weird. Oh 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.280 my god, it was just like, oh my god, it 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.600 was so weird. And now I'm embarrassed that, like I 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.760 wrote about it, in a book, it's like, oh my god, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.480 what was It was the greatest moment in the book. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.360 I loved it. So for people listening who are like, 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.320 what on earth as a professional cuddler? What on earth 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.880 is a professional cuddler? Well, so basically I think that 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.000 they say, you know, they are all about the power 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.080 of touch as kind of a you know, soothing, you know, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:33.160 healing mechanism thing. So people go to them who are 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.440 maybe like feeling lonely or I don't know who, who 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.080 have maybe gone through a breakup or something like that. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.080 It's just kind of like like the using the power 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.520 of human touch is kind of what they what they say. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.360 But I came across some story where some journalists had 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.520 had done it, and you know, she talked a lot 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.360 about how awkward it was. I was like, oh, great, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.160 that's great for my purposes, um, but yeah, it was 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.800 just it was just seriously weird. Like I just I 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.840 just like froze up and just like couldn't I couldn't 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:05.800 even go through with it. I had to like run 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.480 out of there. I was too uncomfortable. So that's my 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.000 favorite part is that you literally ran out and you 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.040 did it before any cuddling had happened, right, No, we 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.840 should she did not. We did not even touch each other. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.200 I was just like, I'm sorry, I have to go 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.640 after it's too weird. So how is this supposed to work? 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.000 You go and is it like an office or is 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.400 it their home? Well, I think it's like their home 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.080 or um or they can come to you, and I 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.880 guess it's supposed to just be you kind of just 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.240 like hugged for a while or something. I don't know 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.680 because I only lasted like ten minutes before I had 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:40.960 to get out of there because I thought it was 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.600 too uncomfortable. But I don't want to like dismiss I 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.400 think that it can be an important thing for, you know, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.080 for people who are lonely or something. So I don't 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.080 want to dismiss the profession of professional cuddling. But it 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.800 wasn't for me for you, that makes sense. I want 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.080 to go back to something you or saying before that 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.680 as you started to do these things, you became sort 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.880 of immune to feeling awkwardness. Has that worn off or 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.960 are you still there? It's funny, it's like it wears 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.480 off when when I'm not thinking. It's like the power 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.120 of the book. It like when I'm immersed in it, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.200 and when I'm doing lots of interviews for the book, 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.000 and when I'm thinking a lot about kind of what 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.600 I truly believe to be like the magic of awkwardness, 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.400 which is kind of like uncomfortable self awareness, but that 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.000 can be really useful when I'm immersed in that, when 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.280 I'm thinking a lot about it, I'm not afraid of 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.480 it anymore. Um. But there was a period where i 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.200 wasn't doing a lot of press for the book, and 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.959 it's like the feeling like came right back, and and 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.240 so I think it's like it like works temporarily. So um. 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.360 So anyone listening to this probably should read my book 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.680 again and again, um to give the effect that makes 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:56.280 sense definitely. Um. It almost seems like if you have 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.839 steeped yourself in the messages of the book, which are 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.080 this is so normal everyone experiences that, there's actually something 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.440 really useful and healthy about it. Like when you're really 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.160 steeped in that message, that is going to really raise 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.920 your immunity to feeling awkward. But yeah, I could see 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.480 how when that's not right in the forefront of your mind, 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.920 it would come right back. Yeah, because it's a I mean, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.880 it's unpleasant, you know, it's tense, it's not fun um. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.480 But when yeah, when I'm remembering the message of the book, 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.760 which is kind of just that these moments can the 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.520 moments that make you cringe can kind of show you 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.040 who you are and who you're who you expect yourself 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.120 to be. And then I get some use out of 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.000 the feeling. So we're gonna do one final break care 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:51.000 and come right back, and we're back. You know. As 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.080 funny as I find awkward situations, especially the ones that 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.080 you put yourself into in the book, I think the 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.880 book's overarching theme is a really beautiful one. And I 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.320 want to read a short paragraph from the introduction that 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.680 I think sums up the whole message of the book. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.440 You can tell me if you dispute that after after 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.640 so here it is, Melissa wrote, the things that make 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.120 you cringe are usually the things worth sharing because they 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.800 can help others feel less alone. It's an understandable reaction 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.640 to flee the situation that makes you cringe, But what 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.760 if you could teach yourself to tolerate it. You could 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.000 maybe learn to use the empathy as a portal to 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.280 compassion for other people, and for yourself. Looked at in 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.840 a certain light, cringing becomes a worthwhile feeling in emotion, 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:42.640 worth exploring, not avoiding. Little humiliations can bring people together 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.200 if we let them. The ridiculous in me honors the 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.600 ridiculous in you. I love that. I love that way 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:52.680 of looking at it, and I think it's part of 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.640 why I love awkwardness, because it's not about making fun 0:15:55.680 --> 0:16:00.760 of anyone. It's about seeing our common humanity. Yeah. I agree. 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.280 I wasn't expecting to get this kind of common humanity 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.800 vibe out of something as as silly as awkwardness, but 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.800 I truly, truly did. Um. It's just like it's something 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.320 we all experience. It's something that can bring us together 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:15.840 if if you, if you look at it in the 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.400 right light. So now you have a whole chapter in 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.800 the book about awkwardness at work, which of course I loved. 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.920 And you opened that chapter by talking about an Ask 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.720 a Manager letter where someone had been working from home 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.280 because of a snowstorm and they're on a conference call 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.640 with their coworkers and suddenly their roommate, who was also 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.880 at home due to the weather, started having sex with 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.840 his girlfriend. In the next room loud sex and the 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.880 people on the work conference call could hear it. And 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.320 then after my letter writer got back to the office, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.000 some coworkers were even avoiding them because they figured that 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.800 they had been openly watching porn on the call and 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.160 felt really uncomfortable. It doesn't get much more awkward than that. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.720 So I love that you opened the work chapter with that. Yeah, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.199 I mean, I think, especially there's so much awkwardness in 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:11.840 remote working situations. Um. Yeah, that that letter was so good. 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.440 It was so bad because it was like, what were 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.080 you supposed to tell that person? The letter writer like, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.120 it's like if you usually the answer is to be direct, 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.880 but in this situation, like, would that have made it worse? Maybe? Right? Yeah, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.680 because you have to be direct and sort of introduced 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.840 sex into the conversation, which were so trained to not 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.720 most of us are trained to not do at work. Yeah. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.640 My advice to the person ultimately was, I think, yeah, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.440 if if they were assuming that you were watching porn, 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.119 it's better to to speak up and correct that than 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.240 to let them go on thinking that. And actually the 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.560 person set in an update later took the advice, did 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.760 tell people what was going on, and everyone had a 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.080 good laugh about it, admitted that yes, indeed, they had 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.680 thought the person was watching porn openly on a work 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.520 conference call. I felt much better once they knew it 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.040 was really going on, and then it just turned into 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.440 an office joke. Yeah, that was such a good one. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.040 But it's so funny how many of people who write 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.840 into Ask a Manager are are dealing with some kind 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.640 of like fear of awkwardness, some kind of like it's 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.760 such a running theme, and I think that's why I 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.360 love your side so much. That's why I love doing it. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.560 I think work is especially prone to awkwardness in some ways. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.000 And part of it goes back to what you're saying 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.600 about awkwardness being what happens when the face that you 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.720 want to show to the world slips. Because work is 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.320 generally a place where we're really trying to have a 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.399 professional persona on, so there's a lot of room for 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.080 it to slip, Like there's further to fall then there 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.360 might be in a non work situation, if that makes sense, right. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.800 And it's like there are rules, like there are rules 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:54.119 that govern how you behave but there's not, but in 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:58.040 some situations there aren't, and so there are these gray areas. 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.920 But then it's a place that like, yeah, I think 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.359 I think the workplace is particularly prone to awkwardness. And 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.840 I think you're right. There's all these unwritten rules about 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.800 how to conduct yourself, and it's people don't always know 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.840 exactly what they are or exactly what the nuance of 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.879 those rules are, and it's so easy to run a 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.520 foul of them if you even know what they are 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.080 in the first place, which not everyone does. And you're 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.320 thrown together with people you might not be the most 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.840 comfortable social fit with, which is another element I think 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:34.040 that ups the chances of awkward encounters. I don't know. 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.120 Work is really awkward in so many different ways. Yeah, 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.359 it's a it's a weird place. And it does really 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.080 matter in this situation what people think of you and 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.320 what people's opinion of you is. So it's like you 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.560 can tell yourself in other situations like, oh, like it 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.280 doesn't it doesn't matter what what are the people think 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.439 of me? But it does matter at work and a 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.639 lot of situations. So yeah, this mistakes are really high. Yeah, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.240 you can't just decide oh well, maybe my co workers 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.840 did think I was openly listening to watching or watching 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.680 porn on the conference call, so be it. I mean 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.080 that you have to address it. But then how no 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.280 one teaches you how to address something like that. What 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.959 do you think, like, because it's one thing to just say, 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.720 you know, just just have the awkward conversation. But do 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.200 you do you think that like there are ways people 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:21.880 can learn how to get better at it, or can 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.320 can learn how to address uncomfortable things, or do you 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.840 think it's just a matter of just doing it. This 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:29.960 is just the perfect setup for me to pitch my book, 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.160 which is all about how to have uncomfortable conversations at work. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:39.520 But I think a lot of it is finding a 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.679 way to be really matter of fact, like one of 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.439 the things that feels so uncomfortable. But the prospect of 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:49.199 these conversations is they feel so emotionally fraught. And the 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.280 more you can talk about it, whatever it is, in 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.879 a very matter of fact way, using the same tone 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.120 that you would use to say, hey, I can't get 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.880 this printer cartridge to work, the closer you can get 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.199 to that, probably the less awkward it's going to be. 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.720 Not always, I mean, some things are just going to 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.400 be awkward and there's no way around that. And all 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.360 you can do is just plunge in and get through it. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.639 But a lot you can minimize a lot of awkwardness, 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:18.359 I think by being a matter of fact, and people 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.439 will take their cues from you. If you approach a 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.080 conversation and you seem really tense and really worried, you know, 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.480