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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. According to a new poll from Somos Bontantes,

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Speaker 1: a quarter of Latinos who backed Trump last November were

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Speaker 1: either disappointed in his performance or regretted voting for him.

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Speaker 1: I'm shocked. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Two of The Contrary's own, Charlie Sykes, stops by to

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Speaker 1: talk about Trump's fast paced authoritarianism. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: The New York Times own Jonathan Mahler about his amazing

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Speaker 1: story on the Trump administration cutting cancer research.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, Molly, I just shocked here the

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Speaker 2: uh it turns out that the reason the Epstein files

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Speaker 2: weren't coming out as well lots of Trump's friends are

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Speaker 2: in the files.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, lots of So we got two different kinds of

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Speaker 1: Epstein stuff coming out. We have House Oversight, which is

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Speaker 1: releasing these tranches of documents, and then we have Jason

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Speaker 1: Leopold at Bloomberg who's also got into Epstein's Yahoo account.

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Speaker 2: Such a security email.

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Speaker 3: DA that's right.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, can I just say that this

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Speaker 1: Yahoo stuff is so amazing because it's.

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Speaker 2: Like, do we think the past word was pete obosk one, two, three.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, but they are completely crazy. There are three

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Speaker 1: of them. The one from yesterday though he had a

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Speaker 1: whole crisis comms team, he was proving different statements. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: this batch today from House oversight from the Democrats, never

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Speaker 1: going to see the Republicans do it. By the way,

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Speaker 1: you know who's running House oversight for the Democrats, So

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Speaker 1: let's for Robert Garcia, who continues to deliver the goods.

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Speaker 1: So in this phone message, logs from two thousand and

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Speaker 1: two to two thousand and five might be of some interest.

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Speaker 1: I wonder who he was talking to them. Copies of

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Speaker 1: flow logs and flight manifestos for aircraft including helicopters that

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Speaker 1: mister Epstein owned, rented, least operated, or used from nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety to twenty nineteen, so there's probably a fair number

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Speaker 1: of politicians and that Copies of ledgers reflecting transactions recorded

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Speaker 1: as cash transactions for mister Epstein and business entities. These

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Speaker 1: documents were previously shown to the committee and then Epstein's

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Speaker 1: daily schedule between twenty ten and twenty nineteen. That means

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Speaker 1: if you had brunch with Jeff Epp. If you're listening

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Speaker 1: a podcasts and you had brunch with Jeff Epp between

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Speaker 1: twenty ten and twenty nineteen, you might want to call

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Speaker 1: your lawyer. What I think is very interesting about this

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Speaker 1: is there's evidence that Peter Til you may remember Peter

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Speaker 1: Tile as the person who's funded this entire dystopia. Steve Bannon,

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Speaker 1: you may remember Steve Bannon as the person who is

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Speaker 1: narrating this entire dystopia, had scheduled meetings with Epstein. Cheryl

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Speaker 1: was nothing. Why would it be Prince an Andrew is

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Speaker 1: You may remember Prince Andrew as being a Prince of

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Speaker 1: British Prince. He's listed as a passenger on Epstein's aircraft.

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Speaker 1: There's possible with financial disclosures proving possible evidence of payment

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Speaker 1: from Epstein to missus on behalf of an individual identified

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Speaker 1: as You're never going to believe this. Andrew very discreet,

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Speaker 1: extensive reactions to protect victims, which is what we all want.

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Speaker 1: I want to point out that Donald Trump is obsessed

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Speaker 1: with people not getting this information. That doesn't mean you're guilty.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't What did Jeffrey Epstein is saying on tape

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Speaker 2: saying I was Donald Trump's best friend for over a decade.

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Speaker 1: You gotta wonder he likes beautiful women as much as

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Speaker 1: I do. Many of them on the younger side. We're

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Speaker 1: not making light of sex trafficking children. We think it's bad,

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Speaker 1: but we are wondering why this has to take so

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Speaker 1: long and why Donald Trump is fighting these disclosures so hard. Also,

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Speaker 1: another person who was friends with jeff epp and flew

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Speaker 1: around on the plane brainworm himself.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember when he was I believe it was

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Speaker 2: Hannity and he tried to list all the times he

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Speaker 2: got with Jeffrey Epstein. But the funniest thing is he

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Speaker 2: didn't list all of them, even though we were like, damn,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: Well the best ones, like Kennedy was like, please let

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Speaker 1: me help you not destroy your life, and r kids

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Speaker 1: like and then there was that time we went to

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Speaker 1: the Caribbean and I was like, I don't know how.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that everything has gotten so stupid

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Speaker 1: that if you're famous then it doesn't matter if you

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Speaker 1: do all of this self incrimination.

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Speaker 2: But when you're famous, they let you do anything. Grab them.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, yeah, Oh that's not good. Anyway, we're not

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Speaker 1: making light of any of this stuff, but we are.

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Speaker 1: We got to get to rfkgnor my I think when.

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Speaker 2: He was doing that interview with Hannity, you know they

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Speaker 2: sometimes say, what Jesus take the wheel? I think the

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Speaker 2: worm took the wheel and just did what it had

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: I just want to point out the worm is supposedly dead.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he gets a lot of facts wrong. The

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Speaker 2: worm might be might be alive and well, and it

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Speaker 2: seems like he's running things, which is what is scary

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Speaker 2: a lot of us. With this new report.

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Speaker 1: We've got to get a worm that doesn't take tilent

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Speaker 1: all continue. So all comes back to talent.

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Speaker 2: The tilet all jokes at every group chat I've in

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Speaker 2: in these days.

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Speaker 1: It's like in any group chats anyway, that's what you

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Speaker 1: put me in your group chat.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So anytime we hear that HHS Secretary RFK Junior

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Speaker 2: is studying something, we know it's going to go to

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Speaker 2: a very stupid place. Now we've seen lots of evidence

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Speaker 2: of this. At his new subject, he's studying abortion pills.

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Speaker 1: You want my hottest take on what it means for

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Speaker 1: him to study things.

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Speaker 2: I'm putting on my flameproof suit so I can get

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Speaker 2: your hottest take.

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Speaker 1: I think what happens is he goes on Facebook groups

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Speaker 1: and he LARPs as someone his own age because he's

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Speaker 1: in his seven and he gets in there and he

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Speaker 1: just asks other boomers what their take is on things.

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Speaker 2: The policies feel that way.

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Speaker 1: Not that there's anything wrong with being a boomer, but

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Speaker 1: there is something wrong with being a boomer on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. This is causing a lot of alarm since the

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Speaker 2: conclusions that the quacks he hangs out with seem to

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Speaker 2: get to are not just contrarian, they're very wrong and

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Speaker 2: not not based in science.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they're not not based in science. Many people are

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Speaker 1: saying they are not based in science, but they could

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Speaker 1: also be not not the good science. In case you're

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Speaker 1: wondering things are going great, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Here's another way things are going great. The Guardian has

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Speaker 2: this amazing report that immigrants with no criminal record now

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Speaker 2: are the largest group in nice attention. Seem to remember

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Speaker 2: that the campaign was all about how they going to

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Speaker 2: just get the criminals out of here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, as someone who just did an event

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Speaker 1: with Scott Jennings from CNN at Penn State University.

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Speaker 2: I really hope you're treating yourself to some self care

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Speaker 2: this weekend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. What I think is really interesting about this

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Speaker 1: moment in American life is you had polling the show

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Speaker 1: that immigration was a winner for trumpet. That's why they

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Speaker 1: had the mass deportation. Now signs everything that Trump does, well,

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Speaker 1: it's craven. It's often because he thinks it'll make him

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Speaker 1: win with the base. So here's the news. This policy

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Speaker 1: of the massed people picking up the women, the little

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Speaker 1: old ladies, the children. I don't know if you saw

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Speaker 1: that that an autistic kid was held outside so that

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Speaker 1: the father would come out so he could get arrested.

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Speaker 1: Legal immigration has never been more popular. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: we could go back in time and look at what

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Speaker 1: the United States government did to Mexicans during the very

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Speaker 1: dark period that was. You'll remember where they deported all

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Speaker 1: of these Mexican people and also a lot of citizens

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Speaker 1: because they were way profiling. And it turns out, I

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Speaker 1: don't tell the Supreme Court this, but when you racially profile,

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Speaker 1: you just get people of that race. Worth wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: if we ever get out of this thing, how this

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Speaker 1: changes people's views. I think a lot about Arizona, because

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Speaker 1: Arizona had this sheriff or Pio, who became a Trump

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Speaker 1: World fixture because why wouldn't he be, But he radicalized

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Speaker 1: a lot of the young people in Arizona because of

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Speaker 1: his incredibly insane you know, the insane stuff they were

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Speaker 1: doing where they were trying to strip, you know, right

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Speaker 1: from immigrants.

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Speaker 3: So I think it'll be really.

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Speaker 1: Curious to see, if we ever get out of this,

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Speaker 1: how people's views towards immigrants change. I think that we

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Speaker 1: will see a real backlash to this. I'm just guessing

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Speaker 1: that these videos of these massed agents carrying around women,

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Speaker 1: hitting them, arresting them. I just think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be hard to sell this the American people.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you, and especially when you're seeing footage

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Speaker 2: of just small women getting the living shit kicked out

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Speaker 2: of him. You know, as somebody whose wife had an

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Speaker 2: encounter with ice that was very very well oppressed to.

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Speaker 2: We have prid of the show Kataboo Zagala getting thrown

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Speaker 2: to the point that she was injured pretty badly. It's

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Speaker 2: just real disgusting stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we are in this backlash cycle and

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Speaker 1: it's hard for me to imagine this won't continue on.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Sikes is the author of the newsletter to the

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Speaker 1: Contrary and the book How the Right Lost Its Mind.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politic, Charlie Sikes.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what do we have to talk about today?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 3: What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Remember when Donald Trump said that he was going to

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Speaker 1: seek retribution against his enemies, and many different interviewers were like,

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Speaker 1: but you don't really mean that, and he was like, no, no, I.

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Speaker 3: Do, Yeah, no, no, I do. You know the funny

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Speaker 3: us you should put it that way because I was.

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Speaker 3: I'm writing about that this morning. And on one level,

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Speaker 3: a lot of what's going on is like completely predictable, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's been saying it for years. You know,

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Speaker 3: I am your retribution. I am going to go after

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Speaker 3: you know, he called for the death penalty for General Millie.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's been saying these things. And yet I

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Speaker 3: think there's been that kind of denialism across the board

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Speaker 3: that the people on the you know, in the Republican

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Speaker 3: Party go, well, okay, let's don't you know, don't take

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Speaker 3: him serious. He's taking seriously but not literally, he's not

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Speaker 3: actually going to do that. I think there have been

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Speaker 3: people in the center in the left who thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: well yeah, but there are all these guard rails, there's

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Speaker 3: all these limits. He's not going to find lawyers who

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Speaker 3: are going to do this. And then we wake up today,

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Speaker 3: Molly and find out that, damn it, he is doing

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Speaker 3: everything he said and he's making no secret of it.

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Speaker 3: And this is the thing. It's kind of like a

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Speaker 3: mob boss thing. You get in that hole. You know,

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Speaker 3: I want a head of James. But normally, and Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Kimmel did a great joke about this the other day,

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Speaker 3: you know, when he's talking about Brendan Carr making his

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Speaker 3: mob boss, you know, a nice network he got there,

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Speaker 3: comments that normally, if you're going to get that kind

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Speaker 3: of a threat from a mob boss, you have to

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Speaker 3: plant a microphone in a deli and then sit outside

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Speaker 3: in the van for an hour or so. You have

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Speaker 3: these guys saying it every day on Blast. It's like

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Speaker 3: Watergate on the biggliest loudspeakers in the world. And you know,

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Speaker 3: and so people are saying, well, I'm shocked. Well, on

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Speaker 3: one level, why you shocked? He told us he was

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Speaker 3: to do it. On the other hand, I don't know

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Speaker 3: about you. We are in uncharted territory. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: this feels different, it is different. I mean people do

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Speaker 3: need to understand that even a few months ago, if

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Speaker 3: you would have said that he would order the Department

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Speaker 3: of Justice to indicite a specific person, and even when

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Speaker 3: the lawyers came back and said there's no case, he

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Speaker 3: would then fire those lawyers and he would find some

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Speaker 3: tody and he would from the Oval office ordering the

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Speaker 3: criminal indictment of a Politically, even a few months ago,

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Speaker 3: people would have said, yeah, I don't he's gonna go

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Speaker 3: that far right, Well, here we are.

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Speaker 1: So we've seen other countries slip into autocracy, like real autocracy,

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Speaker 1: not this sort of squishy middle that we're in right now.

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Speaker 1: But it's tended to be that it's happened because in

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Speaker 1: a way the leaders have done things like they've been

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Speaker 1: a little sneakier about it right erduwan. They've tried not

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Speaker 1: to scare people I was thinking of orbon you know,

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Speaker 1: they've said, even putin right, there was some you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't want just some couching of it. That's not

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Speaker 1: what's happening here. What's happening here is like he's doing it,

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Speaker 1: saying he's doing it being like I'm doing it and

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Speaker 1: everyone else is also saying like trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: there's some kind of incentive structure where you know, they're

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Speaker 1: all trying to take credit for it so that Trump

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Speaker 1: will path them on the head. Does that help or

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Speaker 1: does that hurt our autocratic slot?

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Speaker 3: Well, our articatct slide has become a landslide, hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, your point is exactly right. I think I

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Speaker 3: heard an Apple bombs say a couple of weeks ago

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Speaker 3: that it took Victor Orbon fifteen years to accomplish what

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is doing in the first eight months. And

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Speaker 3: part of the reason this goes back to the cliche

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Speaker 3: about the boiling frog. You know, you boil the frog

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Speaker 3: slowly so the frog doesn't notice, and then by the

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Speaker 3: time it notices it's too late, it's already boiled. Whereas

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Speaker 3: if you just threw the floor a frog into really

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Speaker 3: scalding water, it would jump out. I mean that's the theory, right. Well,

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Speaker 3: here's the deal. We're the frog. He's scalding us, and

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that the American frog has figured how

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Speaker 3: to respond to this. I've already strained that analogy way

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Speaker 3: too far, it's good.

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Speaker 1: I like it, American Frog.

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Speaker 3: The thing is that and I have talked to you know,

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Speaker 3: the people who have watched what's happened in Turkey, watch

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Speaker 3: what's happened in Russia, watch what's happened in other countries,

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Speaker 3: including Hungary, and they all make the same point. Is

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Speaker 3: the pattern is exactly the same. Go after the civil institutions,

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Speaker 3: go after you know, go after the dissident billionaires, go

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Speaker 3: after the independent media, go after the universities. Create an

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Speaker 3: enemy that you use to establish state spot power. And

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Speaker 3: again there's no gradualism. Donald Trump is accurately he's a

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Speaker 3: man on the.

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Speaker 1: Clock, right, No, he clearly is. And in fact, when

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Speaker 1: you saw those Truths Truths quote unquote, he'd say things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we got to get this going, and we

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Speaker 1: can't waste any time. We saw this week, Kimmel is

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Speaker 1: not off the air. And in fact, he was the

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Speaker 1: Tom Hanks of COVID, right where Tom Hanks got COVID

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Speaker 1: and people were like, oh shit, this is real. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Kimmel six million people on network, another thirty million on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Even if thirty million people did not sit down and

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Speaker 1: watch the entire episode, it means that it has broken through.

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Speaker 1: It has broken through to a big percentage of the population,

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Speaker 1: and now igur ma ay force next are to air him.

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Speaker 1: Kimmel can be an inflection point. Either can be a

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Speaker 1: hero because this is the first time we've seen this.

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Speaker 3: It feels like the first time we've seen this, and

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there are other episodes, but but not at

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Speaker 3: the scale of what Jimmy Kimmel is doing right now,

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Speaker 3: you know, And hey, look, kim let's see there's so

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Speaker 3: much awful going on. I think we ought to like

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Speaker 3: spend a moment wallowing in the in the sort of

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Speaker 3: awesomeness of the You and I failed attempt comedy.

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Speaker 1: Real cock eyed optimists. It's like you're you're a Midwesterner

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Speaker 1: and I'm just well medicated.

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Speaker 3: But I try to stay away from the hopium. But

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Speaker 3: I will say that this, you know, watching What's happened

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Speaker 3: with Jimmy Kimmel, the point was to cancel him. Right

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Speaker 3: He's bigger than ever right now. The last two nights

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Speaker 3: he's come out and he's been on his game, going

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Speaker 3: after Donald Trump very very specifically, as you know, being

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Speaker 3: a bully and the kinds of things that that he

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Speaker 3: is doing, talking about what's going on with the you know,

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Speaker 3: people like Sinclair and Nextstar. The audience is huge, it

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Speaker 3: is pointed. It's also in a sweet spot for the

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Speaker 3: critics of Donald Trump because free speech, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: been battered and hollowed out, but it is a fundamental

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Speaker 3: It is the fundamental American value. It is in our DNA,

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Speaker 3: the right to speak, the right to make fun of

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Speaker 3: people in power, and people get it now. Again, things

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Speaker 3: may have gotten squishy and soft and people came up

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Speaker 3: with all kinds of others, but it feels like there's

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Speaker 3: real opportunity here to sort of go back and go, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what is America all about? Why do we value free speech?

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Speaker 3: What is the point of free speech? And what is

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump doing? Is Donald Trump really thinking that he

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Speaker 3: makes America great by censoring and canceling people who make

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Speaker 3: fun of him. On one level, the hypocrisy of Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump claiming he was the free president candidate is sort

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Speaker 3: of obvious. That's kind of the old story. I kind

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Speaker 3: of feel that there's a possibility of a moment of

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Speaker 3: revival of American values here, I mean, and also so

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Speaker 3: that there's that hope. Second, I think people ought to

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Speaker 3: realize that, Yeah, you can make a difference. Some things

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Speaker 3: do make a difference. You know, Bob Iger did not

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Speaker 3: wake up heroic. He woke up with lots of numbers

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Speaker 3: about cancelations and long lists of celebrities and entertainers who

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Speaker 3: might not work with Disney in the past. So now

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Speaker 3: he had his nuts and a squeeze. Then that doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that at some point he didn't think, all right,

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Speaker 3: who do I want to be in this movie? Who

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Speaker 3: do I want to be? Do I want to be

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Speaker 3: you know, the craven quizzling who cowers? Or do I

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Speaker 3: want to be the guy that stands up for these principles?

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Speaker 3: And then coincidentally, maybe you know, stops the bleeding on

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Speaker 3: people who are canceling their Hulu and their Disney Plus accounts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It's a question.

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Speaker 1: It's like the difference between Bob and Cherry Redstone. Cherry

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Speaker 1: Redstone does everything Trump asked her to do so she

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Speaker 1: can sell to paramount because she says, no big deal.

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Speaker 1: She even defends it later she says, no, it was

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Speaker 1: a distraction. Obviously, it wasn't a distraction. It was trying

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Speaker 1: to change the partisan lean of an entire network because

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is an autocrat. Canceling Colbert was not about

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Speaker 1: anything but making Donald Trump happy so you could get

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Speaker 1: the regulatory approval.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but weirdly enough, the way they went about

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Speaker 3: it by giving him months in which he can point

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Speaker 3: out to skewer that to secure them. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: Colbert is there's nothing more dangerous than a comedian who's

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Speaker 3: got nothing left to lose, right, he says a lot

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Speaker 3: of fucks to get like I and Colbert goes out

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Speaker 3: there every single night, and Jimmy Fallon kind of feels

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Speaker 3: that way. Jimmy Fallon feels like like he has been Jimmy.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I was thinking of Fallon because

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Speaker 3: Fallon was next on the list, right right, I mean.

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Speaker 1: They're all on the list. We're all on the list.

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Speaker 3: And the thing about Trump again is how he can't

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Speaker 3: his his defenders will say, well, no, he had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with, you know, the cancelation of Jimmy Kendle,

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Speaker 3: And so he just comes out and says no, I

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Speaker 3: was told he was candled.

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Speaker 1: I wanted the White House was tall, that we were

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Speaker 1: the White House was tald, So maybe not even so

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Speaker 1: somebody called somebody, maybe Brenda Carr, maybe this one.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I mean craziness, Yeah, craziness. And then he said

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Speaker 3: and Seth Myers and Jimmy fallon our next. So again

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Speaker 3: he sort of laid it out the same thing with

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Jim Cally. Okay, So he could have just let

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Speaker 3: the indictment speak for itself, right as opposed to he

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Speaker 3: had to on Friday morning basically come out and spike

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Speaker 3: the football on this right to say, you know, yeah, go,

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Speaker 3: he's a crooked cop. In case there was any doubt,

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Speaker 3: any possible shred that you know, some hack like Scott

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Speaker 3: Jennings could hang on and say Trump had nothing to

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Speaker 3: do with the indictment of Jim Comy. How dare you

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Speaker 3: suggest that the president of the United States. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: that Pam Bondi and all the other great Google minds

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Speaker 3: thought of this themselves, right, So you know, Scott Jennings

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Speaker 3: is going to go out there and say, no, this

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Speaker 3: is not a case of the President in the Oval

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Speaker 3: office ordering the indictment of Jim coming. And what Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump says says, hey, fuck you, Scott Jennings. Yes it

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Speaker 3: was I did it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, No, I think that's a really good point. He

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Speaker 1: cannot give his defenders anything to hang their hats on. No,

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Speaker 1: at least to try to pretend to be normal, which

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Speaker 1: is probably good news if you're trying to avoid an

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Speaker 1: authoritarian slide, if you're trying to avoid the appearance that

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Speaker 1: all is normal when things are really being undermined.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well again, I don't think we're an authoritarian is sliding. Well,

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Speaker 3: I think it's an authoritarian crack up. I mean when

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Speaker 3: you're seeing these when you're seeing them and the speed

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Speaker 3: with which it is happening, and just just to throw

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Speaker 3: things up to keep an eye on over the next

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Speaker 3: couple of days, keeping on this meeting with Pete haggs

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Speaker 3: Ath and all the admirals and the generals.

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Speaker 1: What's your sense on that?

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Speaker 3: Well, you want my dark sense on that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want anything.

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Speaker 3: People need to understand that this is we use the

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Speaker 3: word unprecedented too much. This never happens. But you don't

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Speaker 3: invite all of the eight hundred top admirals in generals

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Speaker 3: all over the world to come to a meeting and

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Speaker 3: not tell them what it's all about. You can do

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Speaker 3: this on zoom. You can do this on secure networks.

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Speaker 3: He's basically taking them from their posts, making them fly,

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Speaker 3: come back, sit in front of him. No one knows

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Speaker 3: what it's about. My dark concern is that he's going

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Speaker 3: to stand up and say, we want to know who

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Speaker 3: you're loyal to. How many people in this room will

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Speaker 3: follow every order that Donald Trump gives you, and if

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Speaker 3: you don't raise your hand, submit your resignation. Now, in

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Speaker 3: our system of government, the military takes an oath to

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Speaker 3: the Constitution, not to one man, not to Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: If hegzeth demands some sort of life loyalty of some

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Speaker 3: sort to the administration, it will be one of those

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Speaker 3: again watershed moments. What does it feel like, you know,

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Speaker 3: will the military stand up? Will we see mass firings?

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Speaker 3: What is he going to demand of them? I don't know,

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Speaker 3: But again I'm speculating, But I was freaked out late

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Speaker 3: last night when I saw this tweet from General Michael Hayden,

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Speaker 3: retired for star general, used to be the head of

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Speaker 3: the CIA, Director of National Intelligence, who reacted to somebody

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Speaker 3: who proposed that scenario saying, I'm afraid that's what's going

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Speaker 3: to happen. This is the fear in the military right

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Speaker 3: now that they're going to demand some sort of loyalty.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're going into some deep shit people. We

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Speaker 3: want to know who's with us and who's against us.

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Speaker 3: Who is unconditionally going to follow an order from Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump no matter what as by the way, Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: expects now from the Department of Justice, right, the Department

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Speaker 3: of Homeland Security, the FBI. We've seen that throughout the government.

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Speaker 3: In Donald Trump's mind, why shouldn't that be the case

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Speaker 3: in the military. It's his generals, his military, his people.

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Speaker 1: Right. Everything we worried about happened.

432
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 3: And more because we thought, we knew that he would

433
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,479
Speaker 3: do these things. We thought that people would stand up

434
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 3: against it more effectively, didn't we. Yeah, I mean I

435
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: thought the courts would stand up. I thought the universities,

436
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 3: the law firms, the media would all stand at the

437
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 3: civil society, that Americans would go this is horrible. No,

438
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: this is not what we are.

439
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: There is a case against being a captured institution, and

440
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk about them for a minute. So

441
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: we have Bob Iger on the side of standing up

442
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: for things. Then we have Sharon Redstone right for the moment.

443
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: That's right, let's not get you know what, that's good

444
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: Check on my optimism. But then we have Sherry Redstone,

445
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: we have there, you know, a lot of different college presidents.

446
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: We have law firms, we have these people who have

447
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: said no, no, all the billionaires, all the tech billionaires,

448
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: Bezos is basically Donald Trump's show for now. These people

449
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: are captured institutions. They have no legal anything because they've

450
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: made illegal deals with Trump. So Trump has no incentive

451
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: to say like, this is enough, I've had enough of

452
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: my pound of flash, and so talk us through what

453
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: that looks like as a captured institution.

454
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: Well, I think that this is what should be the

455
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 3: lesson they I thought that they would have understood that,

456
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: if you know, pay off the schoolyard bully, he's going

457
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: to demand more. I think ABC is learning that lesson.

458
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: They pay him off sixteen million dollars for that completely

459
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 3: bogus lawsuit against them. They threw George Stephanopolis under the bus.

460
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: But what they're learning now is that, you know, paying

461
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 3: off Donald Trump does not buy you safety. Capitulating does

462
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: not buy you safety. The law firms are finding out

463
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: the same sort of thing. They're finding out that Donald

464
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: Trump has a way of renigging on deals or expanding

465
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: deals in ways that they should have anticipated, but what

466
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 3: they didn't. I think there's a lot of regret among

467
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: the universities. Plus, you know, the wheel of fortune turns,

468
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 3: and when you go all in on this particular project,

469
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: what do you think happens if things turn around? Now,

470
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: perhaps both MAGA and these companies that have taken Anita

471
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: MAGA think that the wheel will never come around. Maybe

472
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: they think that MAGA will never lose power, that there

473
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: will never be a time of reckoning. That seems somewhat

474
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: naive because normally these smart people will hedge their bets

475
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 3: and they're all in.

476
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point. I think also

477
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: it's important to talk about the polling. Right, the polling

478
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: shows none as is popular that Trump is underwater on everything.

479
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: He's underwater in Texas. And he knows this polling to

480
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: be true, because otherwise he would not ask states to

481
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: be redistricting. Right. He knows he's going to get slacked

482
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: in the midterms if they're a fair midterm. Right. I mean,

483
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: don't you think why else ask for redistricting?

484
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,120
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, But I actually don't think he cares about

485
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: the general population poll. I think what Donald Trump comes

486
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: in every morning looks as is the base still with me?

487
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: Is If the base is still with me, if nobody

488
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: in Congress is going to buck me, then I can

489
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: still have absolute power. And in a thoroughly Jerry mannered country,

490
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: he doesn't need to have a majority of Americans behind him.

491
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 3: All he needs to do is keep the loyalists in line,

492
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: and he's testing it, he's figuring, you know, and by

493
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: forcing them to take more and more outrageous positions, I

494
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: think he solidifies their support. And of course he's managed.

495
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: He's very working, very hard to weaponize the victim status

496
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 3: post the murder of Charlie Kirk. So I don't think

497
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: he's freaked out about the fifty six percent disapproval ratings.

498
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: But and this goes to the base question. He does

499
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: want a farmer's bailout, which is very interesting because we

500
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: had so Democrats hurdling towards the shutdown. Mike Johnson sent

501
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: Congress home. All of a sudden, Donald Trump wants a

502
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: bailout for farmers. He's going to need Democrats for that.

503
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, good luck with that. No, I think this is interesting.

504
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 3: I mean, the shutdown is going to happen, and I

505
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: think it's going to be this massive game of political chicken,

506
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: and we'll see that. But remember that he had to

507
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 3: bail out This is the irrationality of his teriff regime.

508
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 3: He did this, This is the first time bad and

509
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: you know, he slapped the tariffs on in the first

510
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: term and then he had to bail out the farmers,

511
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: so you know, and he's we're going to go through

512
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 3: the exact same scenario. And by the way, while we're

513
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: bailing out the farmers, we're also bailing out Argentina because

514
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 3: America first, Molly, why are.

515
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: We bailing out Argentina? I mean, by the way, as

516
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, as we're clearly heading towards the recession.

517
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 3: Our numbers are so bad.

518
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: You know, the Bureau of Labor Statistics like they've all

519
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: gone home, right, they fired the top boss. Now they've

520
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: held the numbers because clearly they're so bad. Why we're

521
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: bailing out Argentina.

522
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: Think about this for you, Of all the countries in

523
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: the world, if you had to make a list of like,

524
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 3: name me a country that has a long track record

525
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 3: of fiscal insanity, I'm guessing that your list in the

526
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: top five is going to be like, yeah, you don't

527
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 3: want to be like Argentina. Argentina has this new libertarian

528
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: slash right wing president who has been kissing up to

529
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: Donald Trump and Elon Musk. We like him. So we're

530
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: whacking Brazil because Donald Trump doesn't like the president. We

531
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: are having the taxpayers potentially on the hook to bail

532
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: out Argentina because he's a buddy. If you try to

533
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: come up with any coherent theory for Trump's foreign policy

534
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: where his his policies, forget it. It's all that. What

535
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: is Jonathan rob I call it, you know, the you know,

536
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: the but the personalization, it is just it is just

537
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: it is just what benefits Donald Trump. Who Donald Trump

538
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 3: likes moment to moment, which is also why, by the way,

539
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 3: potentially one of the biggest stories of the week was

540
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: his one eighty flip flop on Ukraine.

541
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Believe you, Molly, Yeah.

542
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 3: Well yes, literally unbelievable because you don't know where he's

543
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: going to be forty eight hours from now until he

544
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: backs it up with actual hardware. It means nothing, and

545
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 3: you know, the Vlad's gonna call him up and say done,

546
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: We'll be you know, come on, you know you didn't

547
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: mean that. You didn't mean it, right, you know, and

548
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: and they'll get back together again. So this is a

549
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: man who you know, with a moment to moment to moment,

550
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: he's got the principles of a goldfish. Yeah, and not

551
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: insult goldfishes, just that they have ten second memories.

552
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: Mean to goldfish, Charlie Sykes, don't be mean to goldfish.

553
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: You know that the bad analogy, because his principles may

554
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 3: be goldfish like, but his memory is at least when

555
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 3: it comes to grievances is infinite, infinite. He will he

556
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: will hang upon any slight that is ever.

557
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: For sure, trow that is for sure, trow forever and ever. Oh,

558
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Charlie.

559
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: Thank you anytime.

560
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: Jonathan Mahler is a reporter for The New York Times

561
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: and the author of the Gods of New York. Welcome

562
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, John.

563
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

564
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: Mollie.

565
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: It's so exciting. It's funny because it's like, this is

566
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: such a clear thing that we knew they were going

567
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: to be doing, as the cutting the nah Grant said,

568
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: we knew this was coming, but for some reason, I

569
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: think people had a hard time threading the needles. So

570
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: can you sort of talk us through what is happening here.

571
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, as you say that, it's both kind

572
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 4: of not surprising and also shocking. I think primarily because

573
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: biomedical research and cancer research in particular has always been

574
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 4: just a bipartisan issue, a totally uncontroversial bipartisan issue, going

575
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 4: all the way back to nineteen seventy one, and President Nixon,

576
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 4: who was the one who actually signed the National Cancer Act,

577
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: who launched the War on cancer. The idea that and

578
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 4: a new administration might decide that some reform is in order,

579
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 4: that some changes are in order. Okay, that's one thing.

580
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: But what we have seen really since since the earliest

581
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: days of this administration is really the systematic dismantling of

582
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 4: infrastructure that took more than fifty years to build and

583
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 4: that has been extraordinarily successful at extending lives and saving lives.

584
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: And I'm talking about cancer patients, but even beyond cancer.

585
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 4: This research system, it's what enabled scientists to understand the

586
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 4: COVID virus and develop a vaccine for COVID. The basic

587
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: biological research that was funded and enabled by this system

588
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 4: has has really transformed our kind of ability to treat people.

589
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 4: So it's been on that level, it's been really shocking.

590
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: So I'd love you to just talk us through. Now

591
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 4: we got.

592
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: To this moment with the Trump administration dismantling this kind

593
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: of research.

594
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, So within days of the administration taking office,

595
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: they issued a gag order basically that prevented everyone at

596
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 4: the NIH and the National Cancer Institute from really talking

597
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 4: to scientists, from publishing research, from having any kind of

598
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: meetings to consider grant proposals, and so you know, that

599
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: really really kind of froze the system in place. And

600
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 4: then they started actually canceling existing grants, which just you know,

601
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: totally unprecedented. I mean that that like truly has never

602
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 4: happened before. You know, they were canceling, in the end, hundreds.

603
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: Of grants in the name of doge right.

604
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 4: Both in the name of kind of DEI claiming that

605
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: any grant that had the word, say, you know, diversity title.

606
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: But even like diversity of cells cells would get canceled.

607
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: Yes, as soon as they started doing that, they started

608
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 4: basically free using payments to universities that on this grant

609
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 4: money to pay their professors, to pay their researchers, and

610
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: to keep their labs open and running. So that was

611
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: all kind of happening on the ground. At the same time,

612
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 4: the administration, you know, Trump put forward his new budget

613
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 4: which calls for a nearly forty percent cut in cancer research.

614
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 4: So we're talking about, you know, three billion dollars, a

615
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 4: three billion dollar cut in our investment in research to

616
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 4: treat cancer. So that's still kind of looming, and meanwhile

617
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 4: the system is like already in utter chaos.

618
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: So I feel like there were sort of two groups

619
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 1: cutting everything in a super disorganized way. One was the

620
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: Elon Musk NIH grants and he was really offended by

621
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: this idea that the universities would take a certain percentage

622
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: of the grant for themselves. I would love you to

623
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: talk about that.

624
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's another element to this which gets a

625
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 4: little a little deeper into the weeds, but is like

626
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: also incredibly important that you're alluding to, which is the

627
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 4: individual researchers apply for grants, They get grants to do projects,

628
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 4: to do research. In addition to that, universities are reimbursed

629
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 4: for overhead expenses associated with that work. And that is

630
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 4: something that yes, drove Elon and drove other kind of

631
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: Trump Republicans kind of crazy that the government was reimbursing

632
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 4: universities you know, for things like you know, running labs

633
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 4: for electricity for you know, things like that that are

634
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: you know, just basic overhead expenses that are necessary part

635
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 4: of running a laboratory. That is something else that the

636
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 4: administration cut. It actually got blocked by the court, so

637
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 4: it's still it's still like up in the ear, what's

638
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 4: going to happen. Each university has its own kind of

639
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 4: rate of reimbursement, and the administration cut them across the

640
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 4: board to fifteen percent, which is very very low number,

641
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: and then doge itself. What they did basically was was

642
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 4: just kind of take control of the payment system at NIH.

643
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 4: And you know, keep in mind that the NIH was

644
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: like designed to be an a political organizational political institution

645
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 4: was meant to be insulated from politics. There were two

646
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: political appointees in all of the NIH. One was the

647
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 4: director of the NIH and one was the director of

648
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 4: the National Cancer Institute. Dosee went in and basically took

649
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: control of the payment system so that they could just

650
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 4: stop paying universities.

651
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: Right, And what happened next with the not paying university,

652
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: I mean some things were on prosen, some things were

653
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: not right or was nothing unprosen.

654
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 4: I mean it was like totally chaotic. So you had

655
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: this handful of universities, a dozen or so that were

656
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 4: targeted for specific political reasons. We've kind of read about

657
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 4: some of those. Obviously, Harvard is the you know, they've

658
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: gotten the most attention, but they're hardly the only one.

659
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 4: Columbia earned Northwestern penn. A lot of others also got

660
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 4: hundreds of millions of dollars in grant money frozen for

661
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 4: political reasons. And then there were just some schools, including

662
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 4: one that I wrote about in detail in this piece

663
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 4: of University of Massachusetts, which was not any sort of

664
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 4: political list at all. It's a state university in Massachusetts.

665
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 4: But Doose nevertheless kind of took control role of this

666
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 4: payment system and just just stop paying their grants.

667
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: Why.

668
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 4: They never gave a good reason. They would claim that

669
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 4: they were, you know, reordering the process, reconsidering how the

670
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 4: government does things. They never really explained, you know, in

671
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: any kind of official capacity, what they were doing. All

672
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: that the administrators at U Masked were able to learn

673
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 4: was that this was some sort of change that was

674
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: going on. It was it was it was like really

675
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 4: not clear.

676
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: And that Chan School of Medicine U mass they focus.

677
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: On what they do all sorts of biomedical research. I

678
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: was sort of specifically interested because this piece was really

679
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: about cancer research. They do a good deal. They do

680
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 4: I think about forty five million dollars a year in

681
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 4: cancer research. They do quite a bit of cancer research.

682
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 4: But they do everything. And you know, they had a

683
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 4: Nobel Prize winning molecular biol I think it was a

684
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 4: molecular biologist last year. You know, it's not Harvard, it's

685
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 4: a pretty powerful research institute itself. And you know, when

686
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 4: they when that money stopped appearing, the chancel of the

687
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 4: school had to lay off two hundred people and he

688
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 4: had to rescind offers to the entire you know, accepted

689
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 4: an incoming class.

690
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: Of PhD grad students.

691
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: Right, It's like it's crazy.

692
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

693
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: I Mean one of the things I've been strupped by

694
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: always is just how passive a lot of people have been.

695
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: But is there pushback, and if so, is there any

696
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: kind of effort on the private side to take over

697
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: some of those.

698
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 4: There's been some. I think part of the problem is that,

699
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 4: you know, first of all, these people are like, for

700
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: the most part, academics. We're not talking about political activists here,

701
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 4: and we're also talking about people who are very accustomed

702
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 4: to the system operating a certain way. They spend an

703
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 4: enormous amount of time in the lab, and they spend

704
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 4: an enormous amount of time publishing their research and writing

705
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 4: grant proposals. What they don't do is, you know, lobby

706
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 4: or organize. You know, I don't think we've seen a

707
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: lot of it. I think, you know, I think we've

708
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 4: seen a lot of just kind of shock. And I certainly,

709
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 4: you know, people were eager to talk to me and

710
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 4: hoping that I would help get the word out that

711
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 4: this piece would you know, kind of amplified their concerns,

712
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 4: you know, but we haven't seen a lot of it.

713
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: And also it's the only body that can make a

714
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: difference at this point is Congress, and even that is

715
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 4: you know, we'll see. But you know, for the most part,

716
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 4: these scientists and I think they could be out in

717
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 4: the streets, but they're pretty powerless. You know, they're not

718
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 4: making these decisions. Congress, on the other hand, you know, yeah,

719
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 4: they could be holding the President's feet to the fire.

720
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 4: I mean, this is money we're talking about, like billions

721
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: of dollars in money Congress has allocated for research that

722
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 4: that the president has unilaterally decided he's not going to

723
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 4: give to researchers. It's totally madness.

724
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: Part of the reason why we did things like this

725
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: was because it was good for all of us, but

726
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: also because it was popular. Do you think the lack

727
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 1: of news is why people don't know this is happening

728
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: and why Trump world doesn't care. Try to make this

729
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: make sense to me. If you can, like how we

730
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: got here, I.

731
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: Would love to. It's very hard to make sense. I

732
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 4: think that part of it is COVID backlash. I think

733
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 4: that there's a sort of a mistrust now of the

734
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 4: scientific establishment. You know, the Maha movement is like at

735
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 4: the center of it, and I think it's kind of

736
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 4: a powerful political force in this country. So I think

737
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 4: that that has provided kind of cover for a lot

738
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: of this. I mean, if there's an explanation, like, I

739
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 4: don't think that before the pandemic this would have been possible.

740
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 4: I think everyone on the left and right would have

741
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: had their hair on fire about this, and now there's

742
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 4: a sense of well, these sign I mean, what are

743
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 4: these scientists you know cooking up labs anyway?

744
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: You know?

745
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's just such a departure from everything we

746
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: know about how America operates. That the only way in

747
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: my mind that it makes sense is if there's some

748
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: kind of larger post pandemic lunacy happening, which that sounds

749
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: like it makes the most sense. There's like a new

750
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: head of Anih. Not the woman who got fired, but

751
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: Jay Banishariya. He's a really complicated and fascinating and I

752
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: love it if you could talk through him because he

753
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: comes from anti VACS world, or he was an icon

754
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: of anti vacts, but he's not really anti vax, So

755
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: talk us through this.

756
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I think it's it's going to be really

757
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: interesting to see kind of what happens with him. I mean, yes,

758
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 4: I mean he sort of he made his name. I

759
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: mean he was just a research scientist at Stanford, but

760
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 4: he joined with a few other scientists during COVID and

761
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 4: kind of wrote this this, you know, the Great Barrington Declaration.

762
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 4: It was called. It was a critique of the COVID

763
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 4: policies and and kind of encouraging her immunity. And so,

764
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 4: you know, not quite right to say that he's a

765
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 4: vaccine skeptic, but he's a big critic of the NIH

766
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 4: or he was a big critic of the NIH and

767
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 4: now he's running the NA. So I think another thing

768
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 4: that's important to note about him is that he's from Stanford.

769
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 4: He's from like Silicon Valley. He's sort of been kind

770
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: of part of the you know, this is a bit

771
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 4: of a bit of a generalization, but he's kind of

772
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 4: part of the tech right in a way. He's like

773
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 4: of the kind of just ouption is good and government

774
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 4: is bad kind of mindset. Having all that, you know,

775
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 4: he's a legitimate scientist.

776
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: As opposed to RFK Junior, who is not a real scientist.

777
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 4: That's right, And he has been NIH funded himself. He's

778
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 4: one grants himself, and so I can't believe that he

779
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 4: likes what he's seeing. I don't know a whether he

780
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 4: is going to have the power to, I guess would

781
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 4: say whether he's going to have the will to try

782
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 4: to stop any or be whether he power to. I mean,

783
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: I have a pretty strong sense that HHS is really

784
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 4: kind of controlling healthcare policy, that RFK has really kind

785
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 4: of consolidated power. So it'll be interesting to see whether

786
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 4: he feels like he needs to basically like champion the

787
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 4: interests of the research community that he comes from, or

788
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 4: whether he's just going to fold himself into the sort

789
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 4: of Maga Maha movement.

790
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 1: His problem is with the way that these grants work,

791
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: or the way they're written, the way the grant world,

792
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: the way that you get money, the way that you

793
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: you know that they're big on kind of theory and

794
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: not as and not as involved in practice.

795
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 4: Right, he did a long interview with you know, like

796
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 4: three hour long interview with the r Huberman, I think maybe

797
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 4: right when he was appointed.

798
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: You know.

799
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 4: And the thing that his critiques of the system, they're

800
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: pretty like widely held, I mean on the left end,

801
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 4: right and popular. One is that scientists have become too

802
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 4: risk averse. There are so many scientists competing for a

803
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 4: limited number of grants, and that a lot of the

804
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 4: scientists are now much older. Everyone is kind of inclined

805
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: toward more incremental, safer projects rather than kind of riskier

806
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 4: moonshot type ideas. And of course it's also a Silicon

807
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 4: Valley mindset too, right, So I think that you know,

808
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 4: there is from what I gather, and you know, I

809
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 4: talked to a lot of people for this story, there

810
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 4: is definitely some truth to that critique. I mean, the

811
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 4: problem is what we're seeing is the fact that it's

812
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 4: going to be even harder to get grant improove now

813
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 4: is going to have the opposite effect. It's going to

814
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 4: make people even more risk averse, and it's going to

815
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 4: drive even more young scientists with you know, who understand

816
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 4: new technology and have have exciting new ideas. It's going

817
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 4: to drive them out of the field altogether.

818
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: Aren't we basically giving it all away to China here?

819
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean that's the reality is that you know,

820
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: people are just not going to want to do science

821
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 4: in this country anymore. I mean, not only is the

822
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 4: money not there, but like our government no longer respects

823
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 4: these people. And it's made clear if you're a promising

824
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 4: young scientist. And I mean, you know, they're the European countries,

825
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 4: they are recruiting our scientists, but they don't have anywhere

826
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 4: near the resources of China. I mean, why would you

827
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 4: not go to China? They will build you if you're

828
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 4: you know, build you a labor of staff that with

829
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 4: researchers and people who would be willing to work around

830
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 4: the clock, and you know you're good to go.

831
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: It is the end of American exceptionalism. At least in science.

832
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 4: It really feels that way. I mean, I think that

833
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: it's not going to happen overnight. But you know, one

834
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 4: of the guys I interviewed for this story is this guy,

835
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 4: Harold Varmus, who's a former Nobel Prize winning cancer researcher

836
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 4: himself and from the NIH And you know, he made

837
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 4: the point to me that this is not like a

838
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 4: clothing store where it's like, you know, yeah, you have

839
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 4: a couple bad years and then you bounce back. This

840
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 4: is an elaborate system that has been built that took

841
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 4: decades to build. You start to pull it apart and

842
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 4: it's gone. To rebuild it would require so many years

843
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 4: and so much political will and so much money that

844
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 4: it's just hard to imagine that that could happen. So yeah,

845
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I don't want to be too hyperbolic,

846
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: but it does feel like we are at risk of

847
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 4: sacrificing kind of one of the yeah, one of the

848
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 4: greatest things this country's ever done.

849
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think there's a way back now. So

850
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: and that goodness, thank you for joining. I hope you'll

851
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: come back.

852
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 4: My pleasure. I would love to.

853
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: A moment.

854
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 1: Jesse cannon my junk.

855
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,959
Speaker 2: Fast Congressman Mikey Cheryl is running for governor in the

856
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: great state of New Jersey. And I think you and

857
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: I discussed like this. This is like one of our

858
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: fears is the Trump administration would weaponize government against candidates

859
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: and races. And it looks like that's probably what happens.

860
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, here we are.

861
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: Yes, So this is exactly what Trump was saying that

862
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: Democrats did, but he actually is doing it. So this

863
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: is her home address. It was all given to her

864
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: Republican challenger. Again, I don't I mean, who knows. Maybe

865
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Speaker 1: this works for them, but I mean this is just

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Speaker 1: so dirty and so wrong headed and so just appalling.

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Speaker 1: And you know, they got this information because she's a veteran,

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Speaker 1: and when you're a veteran, you have your information, you know,

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Speaker 1: in these archives. So maybe it does help, but it's

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Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine this helps the Republican And

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Speaker 1: it's also such just like with the call me stuff,

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Speaker 1: such an incredible dereliction of their duty. So it's just appalling.

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Speaker 1: And I hope that they just said to press charges

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Speaker 1: on this. I hope she does agreed. That's it for

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Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

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Speaker 1: make sense of.

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Speaker 3: All this chaos.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

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Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.