Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Relations between the US and South Africa remain at the
Speaker 2: lowest point in years after a dramatic Oval Office meeting
Speaker 2: between President Trump and the South African President, Cyril Ramoposa.
Speaker 3: I want you to look good. I don't want you
Speaker 3: to look bad.
Speaker 4: But we have hundreds of people, thousands of people trying
Speaker 4: to come into our country because they feel they're.
Speaker 5: Going to be killed.
Speaker 2: With President Trump continuing to push a white genocide conspiracy theory,
Speaker 2: President Ramoposa has sought to try to reset the relationship
Speaker 2: with the United States.
Speaker 1: The United States continuing to play such a big role
Speaker 1: in the life of our economy, it was necessary and
Speaker 1: important for us to go and engage with them because
Speaker 1: many of our people's jobs are dependent on our economic
Speaker 1: dealings with the United States.
Speaker 2: On today's podcast, we're discussing the fallout from that Oval
Speaker 2: Office meeting, how the South African government is trying to
Speaker 2: handle the Trump administration, and what the future might be
Speaker 2: for US South African relations. I'm Jennifer Zaba Sadjob, and
Speaker 2: this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story
Speaker 2: each week from the continent driving the future of global growth.
Speaker 2: With the context only Bloomberg can provide to properly dissect
Speaker 2: this dramatic week for Africa. I'm joined by Bloomberg government
Speaker 2: reporter Sembile Stele, who traveled with Ramaposa and was in
Speaker 2: the Oval office during that meeting. Thank you so much,
Speaker 2: Simbulate for joining us. So let's just get right to it.
Speaker 2: You were in the room when all of this unfolded.
Speaker 2: You traveled with the delegation. Can you talk us through
Speaker 2: what exactly happened?
Speaker 5: So I think we got a test of what some
Speaker 5: of the White House based reporters have been going through
Speaker 5: over the past couple of months, which is just really
Speaker 5: somewhat of a roller coaster.
Speaker 3: We were first outside of.
Speaker 5: The gates of the White House waiting for what seemed
Speaker 5: like I was doing security checks, and then finally when
Speaker 5: we were laid into the lawns, we waited for an
Speaker 5: extended period of time for President sil Rama Porsa of
Speaker 5: South Africa to arrive. When he did, suddenly everything was
Speaker 5: all happening at the same time. The program, and this
Speaker 5: was one of the things that kind of shocked the
Speaker 5: South African delegation changed completely on the spot. If I
Speaker 5: remember correctly, they were supposed to start with kind of
Speaker 5: an informal luncheon. They thought that that would be the
Speaker 5: ideal time to kind of thow tensions get a sense
Speaker 5: for how things go before we had that very public
Speaker 5: facing engagement in the Oval office. But the minute that
Speaker 5: the president arrived, there was a few minutes in between.
Speaker 5: We were ushered into the press room and then all
Speaker 5: of a sudden, it was like, go, go, go, everyone,
Speaker 5: We're going somewhere. And at that point, I think most
Speaker 5: of us weren't even clear that we were now moving
Speaker 5: into the office.
Speaker 3: There was just this rush, and suddenly we were inside.
Speaker 5: There, Mike's all over the place, cameras, President Silver my posta,
Speaker 5: looking a little bit flustered but kind of trying to
Speaker 5: keep his calm. I think maybe I've got a sense
Speaker 5: that he was trying to not let his face portray him,
Speaker 5: that he was a little bit shocked and maybe slightly
Speaker 5: annoyed that there was this slot min change in the program.
Speaker 5: And I think that that last minute change also gave
Speaker 5: a sense that things were not going to go as
Speaker 5: well as what they had hoped in the way that
Speaker 5: they had planned out as a South African delegation, and
Speaker 5: of course that's when we saw, you know, initially very
Speaker 5: cordial kind of an environment. They were speaking about golf,
Speaker 5: which has always been kind of President Silver my Pasta's approach.
Speaker 5: He'd always had this manner of, you know what, he's
Speaker 5: just a guy. He's just a businessman, like myself and
Speaker 5: my previous post.
Speaker 3: We're now both heads of states.
Speaker 5: We can kind of make this work if we solve
Speaker 5: it on the greens basically, and so I think coming
Speaker 5: into that that was his approach. He tried not to
Speaker 5: be very antagonistic about things. And it seems to be
Speaker 5: going well. And certainly from the first I think more
Speaker 5: honest account that we heard from him yesterday, he said,
Speaker 5: I thought things are going good. And then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, you hear President Trump saying, I think her
Speaker 5: name was Natalie, show us that video.
Speaker 4: Is Natalie here, somebody here to turn that? Let me
Speaker 4: see the articles place of what you would and turn
Speaker 4: excuse me, turn the lights.
Speaker 5: Down, and then boom there It was this kind of
Speaker 5: cinematic demonstration. I suppose Donald Trump was then using these videos,
Speaker 5: these images to try and support the case that has
Speaker 5: been falsely made that there is this white genocide that
Speaker 5: is happening where white farmers are being targeted because based
Speaker 5: on their race.
Speaker 3: In South Africa, you're.
Speaker 4: Taking people's land.
Speaker 3: We have.
Speaker 4: And those people in medicses are being executed.
Speaker 3: They're being executed, and.
Speaker 4: They happened to be white, and most of them happened
Speaker 4: to be farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't
Speaker 4: know how you explained that. How do you explain that
Speaker 4: they're taking people's land away, and in many cases those
Speaker 4: people are being executed, and in many cases it's not
Speaker 4: the government that's soon, it's people that kill them and
Speaker 4: then take their land and nothing happens to.
Speaker 5: Them as opposed to what the situation actually is. And
Speaker 5: that is just a crime situation that really has gotten
Speaker 5: out of.
Speaker 3: Control stim be late.
Speaker 2: We've talked before on the podcast about some of these
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories about a genocide of white farmers. Can you
Speaker 2: talk about how the South African officials are now countering
Speaker 2: those claims. What is it they're saying, especially when you
Speaker 2: think about what it is that Trump was showing them,
Speaker 2: How are they pushing back on this?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 5: I think it's difficult because there's two approaches. The one
Speaker 5: is that it doesn't really matter how much evidence you
Speaker 5: put before the Trump administrations to say this is not true.
Speaker 5: These are effects and effects at our disposals. Africa has
Speaker 5: really reliable crime statistics. They come out on a quarterly basis,
Speaker 5: and as it pertains to far murders of white farmers
Speaker 5: in particular, because there are many black farmers as well.
Speaker 3: Over the last period of.
Speaker 5: The last four years, the crime stats tell us that
Speaker 5: fifty three white farmers have been killed. And I think
Speaker 5: it's one of the things that came up in the
Speaker 5: Oval Office that I think was I think an embarrassing
Speaker 5: kind of concession to have to make from the part
Speaker 5: of the South African government to say that what we're actually.
Speaker 3: Dealing with is a really.
Speaker 5: Hectic crime situation that has kind of gotten out of hand,
Speaker 5: and it's not targeted at any one person in.
Speaker 3: Particular or one race group.
Speaker 5: Brother, It's just an issue that we are struggling to
Speaker 5: deal with as a government. But I think to the
Speaker 5: extent that some felt that let us try and make
Speaker 5: a case, there is still room to try and change
Speaker 5: President Trump's mind.
Speaker 3: These are the stats, these are the figures.
Speaker 5: They're credible, they're reliable, and they don't support what we're seeing,
Speaker 5: and certainly in terms of what we're shown in the
Speaker 5: Oval office those videos, a lot of that has now
Speaker 5: been exposed, right to say that these are scenes from
Speaker 5: the Congo and elsewhere, they didn't actually happen in South Africa.
Speaker 5: So there is this back and forth around the statistics,
Speaker 5: but there's also a feeling that it doesn't matter how many,
Speaker 5: you know, credible figures you put out there, people seem
Speaker 5: to have made their minds about the so called white
Speaker 5: genocide in South Africa exactly.
Speaker 2: And especially when you think about, you know, President Ramaposa
Speaker 2: trying to at least bring the meeting back to the
Speaker 2: G twenty and some of the goals for him for
Speaker 2: later this year. I wonder Stanbile, given again that you
Speaker 2: were in the room, you traveled with the delegation, did
Speaker 2: they ultimately walk away with what they had hoped to achieve?
Speaker 2: Of course there are some curveballs thrown in there, But
Speaker 2: what would you say?
Speaker 5: I think it's kind of mixed reactions depending on who
Speaker 5: you speak with. I think it's overall optimistic. But to
Speaker 5: the point that you're making, we're president drama Pasa. I
Speaker 5: was trying to bring the other issues along because it's
Speaker 5: kind of there's a sense that this issue around the
Speaker 5: white pharmas has become a little bit of a side
Speaker 5: show when there are bigger issues that play. Of course,
Speaker 5: South Africa and the US have a longstanding diplomatic and
Speaker 5: trade relations. At the US of South Africa's second largest
Speaker 5: trading partner after China, and so those are the issues
Speaker 5: of substance that i'm a post administration really wants to
Speaker 5: put on the table. There's the matter of the G
Speaker 5: twenty presidency, which will ultimately be handed over to the
Speaker 5: US come the end of the year, and that's a
Speaker 5: big point, right. There's also the matter of the preferential
Speaker 5: free trade Agreement, the GROWER, which is up for renewal
Speaker 5: later this year. There seems to be a sense that
Speaker 5: that is dead and buried even before the Trump administration,
Speaker 5: to be honest, there's been a sense that South Africa
Speaker 5: is too developed for a GOA as a framework, and
Speaker 5: so the discussion really has been to how do we
Speaker 5: then take this forward, How do we formalize other trade
Speaker 5: arrangements that we can have so that you kind of
Speaker 5: keep the benefits that you've had going or reconceptualize them
Speaker 5: so that we can keep these trade relations going, and
Speaker 5: we're possible also ramp up things like alan g gas
Speaker 5: imports from the US and those kinds of things. So
Speaker 5: I think in behind the closed doors, obviously we don't
Speaker 5: have the perspective of the Trumpe administration if they were
Speaker 5: open to any of the proposals that were put down,
Speaker 5: but certainly there was a discussion around trade, how to
Speaker 5: formalize it, how to normalize relationships so that the actual
Speaker 5: work does continue, particularly on the trade side.
Speaker 2: And Stambulay stick with us. When we come back, we'll
Speaker 2: dig into more of the fallout from this meeting and
Speaker 2: really what happens now for South Africa and US relations.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back. Welcome back.
Speaker 2: Today we are looking at the fractious relationship between South
Speaker 2: Africa and the US. As President Rama Posa returned from
Speaker 2: a difficult trip to Washington. Stembu Lay Stele is still
Speaker 2: with me. Stembu Lay, I want to ask you about
Speaker 2: the reaction to that press conference. It has been the
Speaker 2: talk of town, if you could say, across South Africa,
Speaker 2: but maybe from your vantage point, how would you assess
Speaker 2: the reaction.
Speaker 5: There's been a mixed response, right, it depends on which
Speaker 5: side of the fence that you're on.
Speaker 3: But I wouldn't say that on the whole.
Speaker 5: It seems to have not just domestically, but I think
Speaker 5: abroad as well, because let's be honest, dealing with the
Speaker 5: Trump administration is not just a South African problem. Everyone
Speaker 5: is kind of grappling with what it means given the
Speaker 5: status of the US, right the world's biggest economy, how
Speaker 5: you deal with the president that acts in the manner
Speaker 5: that he does, and how you move things going forward.
Speaker 5: And so there's people that are saying, you know what,
Speaker 5: this guy doesn't respect South Africans, he doesn't have any
Speaker 5: good things to say about us. Why are we even
Speaker 5: bothering to have this conversation with him at all? You
Speaker 5: have economic players like Johanna Rupert, who was in the
Speaker 5: room at the time in the Oval Office, trying to
Speaker 5: make the point that, you know what, at a trade level,
Speaker 5: this relationship is really important.
Speaker 3: It's important that we get things right.
Speaker 5: It's important that we clarify what is misinformation and what
Speaker 5: is the accurate picture of what's happening at home and
Speaker 5: where there are shortcomings where we are dealing with things
Speaker 5: like crime. Will come out and say this is what
Speaker 5: it is. And try to clarify what it isn't And
Speaker 5: so I think, yeah, it just depends on which side
Speaker 5: of the political divide that you're on. But I think
Speaker 5: for the most part, people are concerned about Britain, but
Speaker 5: the issues and that is the economy and to the
Speaker 5: extent that having normalized relations with the US can assist
Speaker 5: in stabilizing the economy and growing the economy. As South
Speaker 5: Africa's second largest trading partner, there is that realization that
Speaker 5: we need to try and make things work.
Speaker 3: If it doesn't work out in the end, that's another story.
Speaker 5: But from the side of the South African government that
Speaker 5: are putting their best foot forward as it were, to
Speaker 5: try and normalize relations.
Speaker 2: Especially when you think about, as you were mentioning a GOA,
Speaker 2: that preferential trade agreement which expires at the end of
Speaker 2: this year, what does trade look like As you were
Speaker 2: just alluding to, you mentioned there were some productive discussions
Speaker 2: that we had in the US. When we think about
Speaker 2: the bilateral relationship between these two countries, how significant is
Speaker 2: this for South Africa really to write the ship?
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it is just if you look
Speaker 5: at market movements, when you just get even a sense
Speaker 5: and again, this is not just a South African story,
Speaker 5: it's everywhere else. You know, at President Trump treats something
Speaker 5: about you know, OECD countries, you see something about the
Speaker 5: oil market, and you just see everything comes to a
Speaker 5: grinding holes and so everyone is just and that's trying
Speaker 5: to navigate. But certainly from South African side, given i
Speaker 5: mean one of the highest recorded unemployment rates in the world,
Speaker 5: you have the economy slowing. You know, there's just a
Speaker 5: lot of socioeconomic issues that the nation is trying to
Speaker 5: grapple with. And you know, even being Africa's most industrialized economy,
Speaker 5: there's just still so many issues that are at play.
Speaker 5: And so I think that was the thinking or the
Speaker 5: hope going into that meeting at the Oval Office, right
Speaker 5: that there's this side show, let's deal with it, Let's
Speaker 5: bite the bullets, and let's try and deal with these
Speaker 5: very substantive matters. You know, there are six hundred Americans
Speaker 5: newest companies that operate in South Africa. They create hundreds
Speaker 5: and thousands of much needed jobs. So they must kind
Speaker 5: of be a compromise and middle ground that is to
Speaker 5: be found here. South Africa was one of those that
Speaker 5: was slept with thirty one percent of.
Speaker 3: The tariffs that have now been suspended.
Speaker 5: The conversation was, how do we bring down that figure
Speaker 5: so that it is a mutually beneficial relationship, because those
Speaker 5: tariffs will hurt, for instance, your auto motive sector. Massive
Speaker 5: companies like Ford that are operational in South Africa, they're
Speaker 5: going to take a hit in as much as South
Speaker 5: Africa will as well.
Speaker 3: And so these are the proposals.
Speaker 5: I think the thinking was to say, these are some
Speaker 5: of the ideas that we have, and try and get
Speaker 5: a feel from the Trumpet administration where they're willing to
Speaker 5: bite on those issues, and then take the discussion forward
Speaker 5: and see in terms of a more comprehensive proposal or
Speaker 5: what they're calling a new trade deal, what it would
Speaker 5: look like to put something together that would be mutually
Speaker 5: beneficial for both administrations.
Speaker 2: So then what happens now? Stimbile and I realized it's
Speaker 2: not totally fair to add ask you because as you
Speaker 2: were mentioning, the President of the United States could tweet
Speaker 2: and everything changes. But when we think about G twenty
Speaker 2: coming up later this year and the priorities for the
Speaker 2: South African government, what are you focused on?
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot of moving parts, so fluent.
Speaker 5: A few inflection points that are coming up, and I
Speaker 5: would say that the first one would be the G
Speaker 5: seven meeting that's going to take place in Canada next month.
Speaker 5: And I think that's important because initially this bilateral between
Speaker 5: the two presidents was actually supposed to take place on
Speaker 5: the sidelines of the G seven.
Speaker 3: And even when the meeting was kind.
Speaker 5: Of fast trapped by Washington people that were trying to
Speaker 5: convince President druma course and not to say, they were saying,
Speaker 5: give us enough time to prepare, you can meet him
Speaker 5: at the G seven, And I think from the President's side,
Speaker 5: one of the considerations he was making was that let's
Speaker 5: just deal with this once and for all, get it
Speaker 5: out of the way, so that when we do meet again,
Speaker 5: inevatively at the G seven, for instance, you know there
Speaker 5: will be some sort of a normalization or.
Speaker 3: We'll both know where we stand. We'll know if we
Speaker 3: have a chance or not.
Speaker 5: Similarly, as you mentioned, the G twenty leaders summed in
Speaker 5: South Africa in November later this year, and the big question,
Speaker 5: I suppose is whether or not President Trump will be
Speaker 5: attending that, and it would be really awkward for him
Speaker 5: not to given as you mentioned before, that the US
Speaker 5: will take over presidency of that block of nations, which
Speaker 5: is the world's most powerful economies, right the biggest economies
Speaker 5: in the world, and it's something that started on American soil,
Speaker 5: and so I think that's the big moment that everyone
Speaker 5: is looking at for whether or not things will have
Speaker 5: normalized sufficiently by then in such a way that President
Speaker 5: Trump will be seen maybe on South Africa's greens playing
Speaker 5: some golf leading up to that all important summits.
Speaker 2: And Stambulay, thanks again so much for joining us this week,
Speaker 2: and you can read all of stambu Lay's reporting across
Speaker 2: Bloomberg platforms now and here are some of the other
Speaker 2: stories from the region we've been following this week. Nigeria's
Speaker 2: President Bullat Tenebu has requested approval from lawmakers to raise
Speaker 2: almost twenty four billion dollars in external borrowing in the
Speaker 2: next two years to fund projects that will spur economic growth.
Speaker 2: And as the African Development Bank elects a new leader,
Speaker 2: they will face a formidable task pivoting the continent's biggest
Speaker 2: multilateral lender away from its reliance on the US and
Speaker 2: Europe and securing billions of dollars of funding from other sources.
Speaker 2: You can find these stories on Bloomberg platforms now, including
Speaker 2: in the Next African newsletter. Will put a link to
Speaker 2: that in the show notes. This program was produced by
Speaker 2: Adrian Bradley and Tiwa Adubio. Don't forget to follow and
Speaker 2: review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts, But
Speaker 2: for now I'm Jennifer's Abasaja.
Speaker 3: Thanks as always for listening.