1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of iHeart Media, Stuff Media, 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: or its employees. Some Zodiac researchers don't like people saying 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: that they're obsessed with the case. I don't either, but 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: for a different reason because I blew past obsession about 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: five years ago. It's far more than an obsession to me. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: My name is Mark Hewitt. I'm a true crime author. 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: I've been researching the Zodiac case for about eleven years now. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: Various times I've looked at online websites and talk with 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: other people about the case. Back in two thousand and seven, 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: around the time that David Fincher's movie Zodiac came out. 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: That was the beginning of my fascination with the case 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: that became an obsession eventually. There are a couple of 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: times in my life back between two thousand and three 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: and two thousand and seven, when I looked into the case. 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: I spent a little bit of time on the three 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: forty cipher and I thought about visiting different crime scenes, 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: and it came a point where I said, you know what, 20 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: either I'm gonna have to throw myself into it wholeheartedly 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: or I'm gonna need to back away from it. It. 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: It's got to be one of the two. I can't 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: just dabble in it and feel like I'm doing anything seriously, 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: So round about sometime in two thousand and seven, I 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: made the decision that I was going to throw myself 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: in it wholeheartedly and read everything I could read and 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: talk to everybody I could talk to and figure out 28 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: everything I could about the case. Threw myself into the case, 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: knowing that it was a high profile case. It was 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: eleven years of my life. A couple of years ago, 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: my wife left me. I'm now divorced in part because 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: of the case. Not fully, not not, but I threw 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: myself into the case and neglected friendships, neglected my family, 34 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: neglected my career. It's something that I had to do 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: because of my my makeup as a person. This this 36 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: case has actually been my life for eleven years. And 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm going through the process now that the book has 38 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: come out in September, of what am I going to 39 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: do now with my life. I can't live off the 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: zodiac forever. In fact, I've even thought to myself at times, well, 41 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I just need to walk away from 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: it and just form new social communities, social circles, and 43 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: just just leave it completely. And yet I can't do 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: that because I have great friendships here and the case 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: is still being looked at by the police, and people 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: are still reading my book, and reporters keep calling me 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: and asking for comments, asking for quotes. So I suspect 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: I'll be involved with the Zodiac the rest of my life. 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: A man in a mask robbed, tied, and stabbed them, 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: leaving them for dad. Subjects stated, I want to report 51 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: a murder, no a double murder. I did it. A 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: man who wore an evil style executioner's hood, carried a 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: knife and gun and intended to use them. They have 54 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: an arrestipe because they can't move it. I'm not damn Zodiac. 55 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: Who is the Zodiac and where is he? From My 56 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV, this is 57 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: Monster the Zodiac Killer. From the very beginning of this podcast, 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: we've been asking the big question who is the Zodiac? 59 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: The theories seem endless. A few searches on the Internet 60 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: and you can be lost in a sea of conjecture. 61 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: No other murder in history has drawn so many names 62 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: in speculation as to the killer's true identity. With all 63 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: this information out there, how can we possibly find that story? 64 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: How long have you looked in the wrong places? Is 65 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: it possible that there's more than one man behind the mask? 66 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: The case details are so vague, so disconnected, they easily 67 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: lend themselves to wild interpretation. And the unfortunate truth is 68 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: this might be part of the reason why the Zodiac 69 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: has gotten away with these atrocities for over fifty years. 70 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: So there are a lot of myths out there about 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: the Zodiac, and they often are attached to various theories 72 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: about the case. So if someone has a suspect, they 73 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: sort of tailor the story of the Zodiac to fit 74 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: that suspect. So depending on who you're talking about, the 75 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: story will change. This is Zodiac expert Michael Butterfield. He 76 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: says he's heard a lot of unlikely theories about the Zodiac. 77 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: While many are based in truth, others are pure conjecture. 78 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: Butterfield now listens to every new story with a skeptical year. 79 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: So he's either a brilliant Harvard lecturer or he's part 80 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: of the Manson family. For all these things, and so 81 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: each portrait of the zodiac changes with each theory, but 82 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: none of them correspond with reality. The list of possible 83 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: suspects is long and bizarre. There are dozens of names, 84 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: including the improbable Charles Manson, Dennis Rader, and even Texas 85 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: U S. Senator Ted Cruz. But there are also a 86 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: number of more plausible suspects, and many investigators have explored 87 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: these extensively, often spending years finding the clues and connections. 88 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: And for these investigators, their suspect is everything. This is 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: what they believe. It's their truth, and I'm reporting what 90 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: they believe. If there's another side to it, I report 91 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: that too. I'm Rachel Raskins Raghan, and I'm a journalist 92 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: with The Times Harold the layo. When I got with 93 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: The Times Harold, it just came with the package because 94 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: The Times Harold was involved from the start. I think 95 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: the time I got a phone call from someone who 96 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: knew the zodiac was I talked with someone about it. 97 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: They say, oh, yeah, we get those all the time. 98 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: You get letters, you get phone calls. They know for sure, 99 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: and they want to tell you. And most of the 100 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: time there's nothing. Really you can do to disprove it. 101 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: It happened a long time ago, and it happened to them. 102 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: They developed their theory in their head. There's no way 103 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: really to disprove it. So I don't normally try, you know, 104 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: unless something comes up in the story that that presents 105 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: itself of an opportunity to talk to somebody else to 106 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: see if there's another story out there that would contradict 107 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: it or confirm it, then I do that. Well, Clearly, 108 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: some have gotten so into it that it's cost them 109 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: other important elements in their life. I've, you know, known 110 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: of people who have lost marriages and families over it 111 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: because they can't let it go. One of these people 112 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: is Mark Hewitt, who you heard at the beginning of 113 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: the episode. After more than a decade of research, Mark 114 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: recently published a trilogy of books on his Zodiac suspect. 115 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: I had to look at myself in the mirror a 116 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: number of times over this past year and do a 117 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: very serious gut check because I was going to go 118 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: live and I was going to publish a book that 119 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: identified Ted Kaczynski as a Zodiac serial killer. I put 120 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: my credibility on the line, my research ability on the line. 121 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: A lot of people have criticized it and ripped it 122 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: apart online and called me an idiot and a fool, 123 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: and a one person said that they wouldn't have been 124 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: more surprised if I had named the Easter Bunny as 125 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: being responsible for the Zodiac murders. We met up with 126 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: Mark if the Late Herman Road fiftieth anniversary gathering, and 127 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: it quickly became clear to me Mark had been through 128 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: a lot. Regardless of the criticism he's received, Mark has 129 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: done his homework. So we're going to hear Mark out 130 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: and into his theory. What I came up with with 131 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: six or seven clusters of evidence, one for instances, the 132 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: whole use of mathematics. As you get to know the 133 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: Zodiac letters, you realize there are awful lot of numbers 134 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: in his writings. There are equations, There are umpteen symbols. 135 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: This is important because Ted Kazynski studied mathematics religiously, and 136 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: according to Mark, there's one particular symbol that had special 137 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: meaning to Kazynski, a circle with a cross through it. 138 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: The cross hair symbol is a mathematical picture and illustration 139 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: of the equation X squared plus y squared equals one 140 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: which is so basis to mathematics that it has its 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: own term. It's called a unit circle. Ted Kazynski in 142 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: a number of his papers uses the phrase a unit circle, 143 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: and a unit circle is used widely in his area 144 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: of expertise boundary functions within mathematics. For another clue, Mark says, 145 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: you can look to author Joseph Conrad's book The Secret Agent. 146 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: If you read The Secret Agent, you realize, oh my goodness, 147 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: they're an awful lot of numbers. They're awful lot of phrases. 148 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: Are a large number of vocabulary words that come straight 149 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: from The Secret Agent into the Zodiac Letters. One example 150 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: of this comes from the Zodiac letter received on November eleven. 151 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: This was Zodiac's threat to bomb a school bus. It 152 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: won't do to reroute and reschedule the buses because the 153 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: bomb can be adapted to new conditions. In Conrad's The 154 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: Secret Agent, the main character says that he wants to 155 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: quote invent a detonator that would adjust itself to all 156 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: conditions of action and even to unexpected changes of condition. 157 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: Why that's significant is because that is one of Ted 158 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: Kazinski's favorite books. He claims to have read it a 159 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: dozen times, and one time when he was trying to 160 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: explain himself to his parents and his brother, he said, 161 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, you have to read this book to understand me. 162 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: Another tie between Zodiac and Kazinski is the use of 163 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: written declarations sent to the media. Mark says there are 164 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: a lot of similarities between the Uni Bomber manifesto and 165 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: the Zodiac letters. A lot of the wording and a 166 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: lot of the explanation of the Unibomber manifesto is merely justification. 167 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: So Ted Kazinski killed because he enjoyed killing the Zodiac. 168 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: In his far away Cipher said, I like killing people 169 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: because it's so much fun. So both Kazinski and the 170 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: Zodiac killed for the pleasure of it, and both of 171 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: them bragged about it and letters sent to local newspapers. 172 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: Like many theories about Zodiac suspects, a lot of the 173 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: evidence here is circumstantial. However, there are things that do 174 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: eerily add up, like the timelines between Zodiac and Ted Kazinski. 175 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: Ted was in California nine six interviewing for positions to 176 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: become a math professor. Seven he moved to the Bay 177 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: Area and was a professor at Berkeley from sixty seven 178 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: to sixty nine. He abruptly resigned his position. Four days later, 179 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: four days after his last day of work was the 180 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: Blue Rock Springs murder. Over the next two years of 181 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: his life, Ted Kazynski was missing in action, and during 182 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: those two years the bulk of the Zodiac murders and 183 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: the bulk of the Zodiac letters took place, culminating with 184 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: the letter to the l a times in March of 185 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: ninety one, the last time the Zodiac used the word Zodiac, 186 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: the last time he used his cross here symbol. Why 187 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: is that significant because several months later, in June of 188 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, Ted Kazynski moved to Montana, built his cabin, 189 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: and lived in Montana. Between nineteen seventy one and nineteen 190 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: seventy four, new Zodiac letters were sent to the San 191 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: Francisco Chronicle. However, these letters were print They were signed 192 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: with other aliases such as the Red Phantom or simply 193 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: as a friend. There are maybe one, maybe a couple 194 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: additional Zodiac letters after Ted moved to Montana, but they 195 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: never used the word Zodiac and they never used the 196 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: crossroads symbol. So the timelines of the Zodiac and Ted 197 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: Kaczynski line up very well. But what about the way 198 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: Zodiac killed people versus the Uni bomber. Zodiac only ever 199 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: used guns and knives to kill. Is it possible he 200 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: did follow through on his threat to make bombs? The 201 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: truth is the Zodiac killed up until the murder of 202 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: Paul Stein, in which he was cited, and that changed 203 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: the Zodiac. As far as we know, he didn't attack 204 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: after that. However, at that time, the Zodiac became more 205 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: of a letter writer and began to write many, many 206 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: letters to the police. And in those letters he included 207 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: a bomb diagram where he threatened to kill a school 208 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: bus with a bomb. So the Zodiac himself morphed from 209 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: a up close and personal killer to somebody who threatened 210 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: with bombs. This isn't just some far fetched theory. In 211 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: San Francisco, detectives announced they were investigating Ted Kazinski as 212 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: a possible Zodiac suspect. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, 213 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: local investigators found distinct similarities between the Uni bomber and 214 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: Zodiac crimes, among them where details Mark Hewitt had also 215 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: found both sent letters to newspapers bragging of their crimes. 216 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski was in the Bay Area at the same 217 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: time as the Zodiac murders, and Kazinski often used a 218 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: symbol similar to the Zodiac crosshairs symbol. Ultimately, police never 219 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: confirmed any viable connections between Kazinski and the Zodiac crimes. However, 220 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: his name still exists on the roster of possible suspect, 221 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: and for Mark Hewitt, that possibility keeps his research alive. 222 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: People have said to me, where are you gonna go 223 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: with us? So you're gonna try to talk the police 224 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: into it? Are you going to try to convince everybody? 225 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: I don't feel that's my job. I'm a researcher. I'm 226 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: a writer. I've researched the case, I've written about it. 227 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: People can respond to it anyway they want to. There's 228 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: so much detail to the Kazinski case that covering everything 229 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: in this episode would be impossible, and that's true for 230 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: nearly all of the high profile Zodiac suspects. In fact, 231 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: the sheer amount of information and circumstantial evidence on these 232 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: suspects is intimidating. But there's one journalist who's combed through 233 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: almost all of it. The main San Francisco Chronicle reporter 234 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: assigned to the Zodiac case. Oh you can go into 235 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: zodiac r Kenya. Like many rabbits down many holes. I'm 236 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Kevin Fagan. I'm gonna report at the Sanrancisco Chronicle. I 237 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: have thousands of tips and a drawer over there. It's 238 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: a series of file folders and books dating back to 239 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: six I believe it is right around then. Of of 240 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: theories and tips and proclamations from people who believe they've 241 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: solved the Zonia case. It's gonna spill over. This may 242 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: be the first. Yeah, this is one of the first ones. No, 243 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it's not that the first. You could spend all your 244 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: days sorting this tune, this one, and this is this guy. 245 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: Sure it's someone in I think Scotland. Maybe they're right, 246 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: who knows, but they're just so damn many of them 247 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: there sorting out which one is the real one. That's 248 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: for the cops. That's why a lot of people when 249 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: they call I say, you know, my standard response, which 250 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: I truly belief, is you know, thank you, I'm glad 251 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: you're sharing this. When the cops move on it, that's 252 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: when it's the best time to report on this. Because 253 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: if I wrote a story on every and in the 254 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: plausible one, a restaurant, every plausible zodiac tip that came in. 255 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: You know, it'd be a weekly caller. This is just 256 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: every one that came in. It's just moving. Come on. 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: I wrote about this one because two thousand nine my 258 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: dad did it. The dad do it, you know. And 259 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: then I started getting a ton of stuff from people 260 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: who thought their dad's zodiac, their moms maybe the zodiac. 261 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: The guy upstairs as the zodiac. It's no, it's a 262 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: bunch of cops. No, it's a guy in Scotland. Wait, no, 263 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: it's a crazy guy who lives downstairs. And I'm writing 264 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: this letter as he's down there right now. If you 265 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: if you read the cipher's I get letters, oh hack, 266 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: so many every year, and packets and and handmade books 267 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: from people who have gone through the ciphers and oh 268 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: my god, they've solved it and it says, you know, 269 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: fell in the blanks. And people who have gone through 270 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: the handwriting say, oh my god, it's my grandpa's handwriting, 271 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: or it's the guy down the road's handwriting, or the 272 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: Sero Keller and presidents his handwriting, and they're dead sure. 273 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: And they get experts who confirmed their their theories. It 274 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: comes back my dad did it two thousand nine. No, 275 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: my dad did it. Fagan is talking about a phenomenon 276 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: that we also noticed in our investigation. In recent years, 277 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: several individuals have come forward to claim they have direct 278 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: family ties to Zodiac. One of those individuals is Gary Stewart. 279 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: In two thousand fourteen, Stewart went public to suggest his 280 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: biological father, a man named Earl Van Best Jr. Was 281 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: the Zodiac. His primary evidence was found in one of 282 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: the Zodiacs unsolved cryptograms. Stewart claims his father's name could 283 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: be found in the so called three forty cipher. Remember 284 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: this was a later cryptogram sent to the San Francisco 285 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Chronicle on November nine, nineteen sixty nine. Zodiac sent a 286 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: follow up thirteen symbol cipher on April twentie, nineteen seventy. 287 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: Unlike the first ciphers, these were never officially decrypted. My 288 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: father's name is in that cipher, he said, my name is, 289 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: and then he put thirteen symbols. Those thirteen letters are 290 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: E A, R, L V A N B, E S 291 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: T j R. That was Gary Stewart, speaking on a 292 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: talk show in He published a book on these findings 293 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: and more, but not everyone was convinced on solved cryptograms. 294 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: It's like the equivalent of a treasure map, trying to 295 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: figure out what whereas the treasure buried. Sometimes I go 296 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: through a period we I'll spend a lot of hours 297 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: on it, and other times I don't because I get 298 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: burned out on trying it. This is programmer and amateur 299 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: cryptographer David A. Rancheck. We talked with him early in 300 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: the season about the first Cipher's. He's tried to solve 301 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: the three forty cipher, but like everyone else, has had 302 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: no success. People have written endless books about their suspects, 303 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: and you know, their claims about solving the solution, and 304 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: in some cases they're rewarded for it, you know, financially, 305 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: their books are wildly popular even though they haven't really 306 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: solved the codes. You know, if they can convince enough 307 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: people that they have, then they know they're they're able 308 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: to make a decent buck from it. So that's that's 309 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: the other strange aspect of this whole thing. And like 310 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: the case of Gary Stewart, who claimed his biological father, 311 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: I guess was the Zodiac. You know, he's got very 312 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: flimsy evidence on that, and I looked at his codework 313 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: in his book. He got a publication deal from Harper's 314 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: and he's a big publishing house. It was a best 315 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: selling book for a while. It hit the New York 316 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: Times Best Sartlist, and he was going around to all 317 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: these news shows. They would bring him on and saying, 318 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, Zodiac is solved. Here's the guy who solved it. 319 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: A lot of people go into it and they don't 320 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: bother to learn cryptography. They just have kind of an 321 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: intuitive feel for what needs to be done, and that 322 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: I think is what gets people stuck in these traps 323 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: of you know, they got a name to pop out, 324 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: or they got a phrase the pop out, but they 325 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: can't prove that it was intentional. There is a sort 326 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: of intoxicating effect when you plug in what do you 327 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: think Zodiac might have said? And it happens to fit. 328 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: So you come up with this long phrase, but invariably 329 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: the message turns into gibberish for the rest of the message. 330 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: It's easy to get caught up in that first feeling 331 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: of Wow, this it's working, it's fitting, this message is 332 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: coming out. But that's just because the ciphertext gives you 333 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: enough room to make an early mistake, and it looks 334 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: right at the beginning, but then later on it it 335 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: just turns into nonsense. I often compare it to you know, 336 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: seeing faces and clouds. Well, a lot of times you'll 337 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: see something that seems to be there and it's not 338 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: really there. It's just making your brain think that there's 339 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: a pattern there, but it's actually happening because of just 340 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: random chance. And that's a frequent mistake that people make 341 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: when they look at the ciphers. So that's the kind 342 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: of trap that they're in. They're kind of stuck in 343 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: this place where they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt 344 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: that the message is real. Somebody will go through a 345 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: procedure that generates a name, and so that will be 346 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: their solution. But if you repeat the process, you can 347 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: make the same process generate other names. But they ignore that. 348 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: Some of them are just so fixated on their suspect 349 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: that they get locked into a particular way of solving it. 350 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: What it's resulted in is, you know, a lot of 351 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: people are so severely misinformed on the case they think 352 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: that it's already been solved. I stopped playing that game 353 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: a long time ago, but people a look, they make 354 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: it sound like if you can show them that piece 355 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: of information, it'll be really compelling. And then you go 356 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: to the trouble to upload it and they say, no, 357 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: big deal, doesn't prove anything. I didn't say it did, 358 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: Jack Won. That's why I have the delete feature. I 359 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: can ban people at all, but I've melted out a lot. 360 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: This is Tom Voyd of Zodiac Killer dot com. As 361 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: you heard last episode, he started the Zodiac Anniversary meet ups. 362 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: In many ways, he's a key figure in this Zodiologist community. 363 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: Tom has explored the three forty cipher extensively. He echoed 364 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: David ranchek sentiment that the unsolved cipher theories are bogus. 365 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: People are so influenced by the fact that three of 366 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: those codes didn't get solved. Well, they're just rubbish. There's 367 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: no solution to be had. It's just to manipulate people 368 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: and get him to keep focusing on that instead of 369 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: on the government. Does that you throw out something a 370 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: press release about a controversial topic to get people not 371 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: to talk about you know what they should be talking about. 372 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: It's fake news. Zodia convented it. Zodiac invented fake news 373 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: with the code has my Name in it and all 374 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: this other every letter was fake news and it was 375 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: to get manipulate the people or the police into following 376 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: the wrong path. Even still, Tom Void developed his own 377 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: suspect through the ciphers. Many years ago, he received a 378 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: tip from an informant named gold Catcher. This informant also 379 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: spoke with the police, but at the time they didn't 380 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: consider him a reliable source. Tom, however, was so convinced 381 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: by this new info he began his own investigation. Eventually, 382 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: Tom found the name of this new suspect in the 383 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: initial three parts cipher. These were the three letters sent 384 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: to separate newspapers in July of nineteen sixty nine. The 385 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: name Tom found was Richard Geikowski. At the time that 386 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: the Zodi X that his three part cipher, Richard was 387 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: working for a counterculture newspaper and he would publish articles 388 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: and he would call himself Dick Geike, So he would 389 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: shorten his last name to the first syllable, and he 390 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: spelled it different ways. I have found evidence, the actual 391 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: proof that where he spelled at g A i K, 392 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: g i k E and g U y k, there's 393 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: only one they're spelling to get that Gike sound, and 394 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: that's g y k E and that was found in 395 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: the cipher before it's translated. You can see it with 396 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: your own eyes. G y k E. Zodiac chose the 397 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: g y k E was going to go right there, 398 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: and he chose that it would represent when solved, the 399 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: last four letters of the word because I will not 400 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: give you my name, because so in the word, because 401 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: the last four letters A, U, S, E are what 402 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: GUI translates to when the key is learned and you 403 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: translate the cipher. So Guik house key the key syllable 404 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: can be found if you consider the word key as 405 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: in the decryption key as part of the solution. According 406 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: to Tom, Zodiac changed his encoding method throughout the three 407 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: parts cipher to throw off cryptographers. So Zodiac potentionally changed 408 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: the coding method and that allowed Guike to translate the house. 409 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: If he hadn't changed the encoding method, then Guike would 410 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: have become something else. It wouldn't have been a usc 411 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: So you have all three syllables of his last name, 412 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: which is really interesting. And he went on to become 413 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: one of the first computer corners in the Bay Are. 414 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: He started his own online newsgroup in his fifties, which 415 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: is when most people are along done learning something new, 416 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: so he obviously had an aptitude for that. For many 417 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: online sleuths, Richard Geikowski is another major suspect in the 418 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: Zodiac case, but aside from the cipher connection which Tom 419 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: just mentioned, what other evidence is out there. Geikowski was 420 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: part of a counterculture commune in San Francisco called Good Times. 421 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: There he edited an anti police, pro violence newspaper. By 422 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: January of nineteen sixty nine, the Good Times newspaper was 423 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: publishing violent works of fiction, many were extremely similar to 424 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: the Zodiac's future crimes. There's some circumstantial evidence linking Richard 425 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: Gaikowski to the Paul Stein murder. Richard's cousin lived on 426 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: Washington Street, which you may remember is where Paul Stein 427 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: was murdered, and that cousin's birthday was October eleven, the 428 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: same day Paul Stein was killed. For this reason, it's 429 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: possible he was in the area that day. Also, the 430 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: Good Times Communication Center was located just a few houses 431 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: down from Paul Stein's residence in San Francisco, and according 432 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: to paul Stein's sister, Gaikowski attended Paul's funeral The most 433 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: significant evidence came from the informant gold Catcher. He was 434 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: a former co worker of Geikowski's. According to Goldcatcher, Geikowski 435 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: would invite him to engage in violent acts similar to 436 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: the Zodiac crimes. This was convincing enough that NAPA detective 437 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: Ken Narlow decided to interview and investigate Gaikowski. Goldcatcher also 438 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: obtained an audio clip of Gaikowski talking. We received a 439 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: copy of this audio courtesy of Tom Voyd from Zodiac 440 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: killer dot com. The whole thing about a code, You've 441 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: got to remember also, once the code telecode is broken, 442 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: you have I never know, never any way of knowing 443 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: whether it's a real code or whether it's just a 444 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: fake code. Oh, which means at some time, you know, 445 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: like the military and all of that, sometimes you would 446 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: send garbled messages that meant absolutely nothing, so that you 447 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: get the enemy to depend all their time trying to 448 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: make break the code. Nancy Slover, who spoke with the 449 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: Zodiac when he called to report the Blue Rock Springs murder, 450 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: listened to this clip of Richard Gaikowski. According to Nancy, 451 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: it was the voice of the Zodiac, but aside from 452 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: some initial questioning by authorities. Geikowski was never thoroughly investigated. 453 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: He died in two thousand four. Tom Voight, Mark Hewitt, 454 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: and other online sleuths have been meeting up for years. 455 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: On occasions like these, they come together to tell stories 456 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: and share theories. I got a little group together people 457 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: that were very interested in the case. They come to 458 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: my house. We have dinner, and we sit in the 459 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: chat and watch the Zodiac movies over and over and 460 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: over again. And so that's that's how this got going. 461 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: And we go to all the Zodiac sites for every anniversary. 462 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: This is Sandy Betts. She's been a part of the 463 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: Zodiac story from the very beginning. Sandy told us that 464 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: back in the sixties she knew some of the victims. 465 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: She even claims to have had run ins with the 466 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: Zodiac himself. It has taken up a good portion of 467 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: my life, it really, really truly has. My children have 468 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: grown up with it, you know, knowing that I was 469 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: being stocked by somebody who was claiming to be the Zodiac, 470 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: and my children were afraid. My had a daughter was 471 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: scared to death of him because he didn't he followed 472 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: her as much as he did me. She finally passed 473 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: away for a thing. It sounds terrible, but when she 474 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: passed away, I didn't have to worry about her being 475 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: tortured by him, because I was scared to death that 476 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: he was going to get her and torture her. According 477 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: to Sandy, the Zodiac was obsessed with her and her daughter. 478 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: She spent years confronting this man. He would supposedly show 479 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: up at her home or tail get her car late 480 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: at night. Sandy saw his face many times, but never 481 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: got his name. I did a steak out. There was 482 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: several girls that were murdered in Pittsburgh area, and I 483 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: decided to do a steak out because I was told 484 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: the guy was an older guy and Betty looked like 485 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: my guy. So I went and I backed in to 486 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: a laundromatt area where was cross streeping taco bell where 487 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: most of the prostitutes hung out. And as I'm hanging 488 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: out the pictures that I'm talking, this one girl walking 489 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: up and she screams, Oh my god, that's the killer. 490 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: I go, whoa, whoa, wo calm down, calm down, what 491 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: do you mean that's the killer? And she said he 492 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: grabbed her jacket with one hand, and he grabbed her 493 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: hair with the other and he pulled a big hunk 494 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: of her hair out, and she slipped her arms like 495 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: this and slipped out of the jacket. It's not too 496 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: long after that I get an envelope in the mail 497 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: and one of the pictures has returned to me, no 498 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: return address. The stamp was upside down. It was a 499 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: love stamp. I think I figured he's telling me that 500 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: he got ahold of one of the girls that I 501 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: gave the picture too, and he wanted me to know 502 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: that he killed another one. Sandy told us many stories 503 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: which connect her stalker to the Zodiac. One of those 504 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: stories begins just days after the attack at Lake Ferryessa September, 505 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: when the Zodiac stabbed se Seria Shepherd and Brian Hart. Now, 506 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: within a day or two, this is before it hit 507 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: the newspaper. Within a day or two, the costume was 508 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: put in my car, the killing costume. Now this is 509 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: four weeks before Halloween, so I thought it was a 510 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: Halloween costume. But I made a copy of what it 511 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: looked like, and it was in two parts. The top 512 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: part was made out of a paper sack. It was 513 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: painted black. I don't remember if there was a hole 514 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: for the nose there or a hole for them out. 515 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: But at the very bottom he had sliced each corner 516 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: and bent it so that it sat on his shoulders, 517 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: and the other part, which I called the poncho part, 518 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: went over that and held it down. And the glasses 519 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: that he had the clip ones, actually held the hood 520 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: in place so that he could turn his head like 521 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: this and and it would stay in place because the 522 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: glasses holding it together. Sandy's theories really confusing and complex, 523 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: but we doesn't matter because we get along and we 524 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: treat each other well, and you know, we're nice to 525 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: each other's We were curious what Tom thought of all 526 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: these different zodiac theories. Each of the Zodiologists has their 527 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: own personal story, but still they gather every year to 528 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: spend time together, and the differences of opinion don't seem 529 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: to matter. As long as people are, you know, nice 530 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: and polite and you know, and not rude, then I 531 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: don't really care what their theory is. We'll get along 532 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: just fine. I have a bad reputation of being an 533 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: asshole and kicking people off my message board and stuff 534 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: like they have it. Really I think I'm pretty fair. 535 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: I just if you're going to be arrogant and aloof 536 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: and confrontational, condescending that I'll probably be a dick. Usually, 537 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: Tom and the Zodiologists traveled to the actual sites of 538 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: the known murders, but something happened this year that changed everything. Well, 539 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: this year Tom Tom at a bus. But what was 540 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: supposed to happen was we were all going to be 541 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: on a bus and do a tour of the crime 542 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: scene and probably go to where Betty Luke lived and 543 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: where David lived and things like that. And everybody was 544 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: very excited about doing this because it's the fiftieth anniversary. 545 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: So Tom was having a big deal, you know, a 546 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: bus and everything, and this guy who is not mentally stable, 547 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: made a threat to Tom, and Tom reported it to 548 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: Solano County Sheriff's Department, and I guess they probably said, 549 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's not a good idea for you to 550 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: have this bus tour because this sounds pretty serious. Not 551 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: much is known about the person who made this threat. 552 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: Tom says he has a history of stalking these Zodiac gatherings. 553 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: This individual apparently believes his own father is the Zodiac 554 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: and that the Zodiologist community is trying to kill him. 555 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: Tom's fiance Angie told us that this case has a 556 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: detrimental effect on some people. I think they just get 557 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: so wrapped up in it they start to lose sense 558 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: of reality. It's easy to lose yourself in a movie 559 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: or something, but that's not what this is. And I 560 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: think a lot of those people kind of have that mindset, 561 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: like maybe like things can play out the way they 562 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: want them to fits their movie in their script, and 563 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: that's not good. Luckily, I don't see too many too 564 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: much of that. Tom probably sees more of it than 565 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: I do, but I kind of turn an ignorant eye 566 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: to that. Angie says, this individual is one of those people. 567 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: After he made the threat, local law enforcement advised everyone 568 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: to stay away from Lake Herman. So Tom Void canceled 569 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: the bus tour. My boyfriend came all the way from 570 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: conduct to to go on the bus tour, and a 571 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, have hotels booked and things 572 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: like that, and this screwed up everything, especially for poor Tom. 573 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: We've got it all together, Yeah, so it's a it's 574 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: a crying chain. But now they think the guy was 575 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: just rambling, which makes me think that possibly they talked 576 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: to him and he kind of backed off a little 577 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: bit and said, Oh, I'm really not gonna do that. 578 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: I just wanted to scare him, you know, And so 579 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: we're probably gonna end up going out there anyway next time. 580 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: On Monster the Zodiac Killer, I know there were threats 581 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: made for people who came here tonight. We're here because 582 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: of the fifty anniversary of the Zodiac killing, and we're 583 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: just here for extra patrol and just kind of make 584 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: sure everyone that comes here wants to be here and 585 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: stay safe. I've had a couple of people tell me 586 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: that they are positive that they encountered this person and 587 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: escaped death. And the headlights, there's a guy's standing in 588 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: the road, and then I remember I told the officer 589 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: I was saying, I think that was Zodiac from all 590 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: that that I've read, I've saw, and I've heard, so like, 591 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: I don't think he'll ever be caught. We do need 592 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: a face, and we need that face to be a monster. 593 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: So that, I think is why we have to identify 594 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: the murder with a face in the area that was involved, 595 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: basically decent New York Brooklyn at the time, it was 596 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: like the motor capital of the world. That was the 597 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: most violent police in New York City, and in the 598 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: midst of all this violence was an emerging serial killer 599 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: who was calling himself to Zodiac Monster. The Zodiac Killer 600 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: is a fifteen episode podcast produced by I Heart Radio 601 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works in Tenderfoot TV. Donald Albright and Right 602 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: our executive producers on behalf of tender Foot TV, alongside 603 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: producers Meredith Stepman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason Hope 604 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: is executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works, along 605 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: with producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Kybrick, and Josh 606 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: Thane Scott Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick is 607 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,959 Speaker 1: our host. Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. 608 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: If you haven't already, make sure to check out the 609 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: first season of Monster called Atlantic Monster, about the Atlantic 610 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: child murders from the late seventies to the early eighties. 611 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: Download the ten episode season right now. Have questions or comments, 612 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: email us at Monster at how stuff Works dot com, 613 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: or you can call us at one three five six 614 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: six six seven. Thanks for listening.