1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Wayne's calling now an inmate at Keelford Units. 2 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: This call is being here and. 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 3: To accept this free. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Call Press one y'all tonight is an important part two. 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: Tonight we're joined again by the brilliant doctor Catherine Ramslin, 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: who y'all know is an author, professor and serial killer expert. 7 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: The peerless Tracy Ullman, who's the documentary producer, director and 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: writer and known for her expert research skills. Together Dtor 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: Ramsln and Tracy Ulmen wrote the book The Serial Killers Apprentice, 10 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: the true story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turns a 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: kid into a killing machine. Ladies, welcome, Welcome back to 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: Zone seven. 13 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 4: Erry, happy to be here, thanks so much. 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: And we're going to be joined again by Elmer Wayne 15 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: Henley Junior in just a little bit. He was the 16 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: focus of their book, The Serial Killers Apprentice, and he 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: has agreed to come back and talk to us about prevention. 18 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: How do we help young people, especially young men, from 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: becoming victims of older criminals. And you know again to me, 20 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: all three of you just the generosity to come back 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: and talk so openly, I just appreciate it. So I 22 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: just want to out of the gate say thank you 23 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: before we get started. But doctor Ramsley, how are kids 24 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: so vulnerable to these predators, and especially if you could 25 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the adolescent brain. 26 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 4: Okay, well, in the past twenty years we've done a 27 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 4: lot with with neuroscience being able to scan brains and 28 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 4: see developmental aspects with What we do know is that 29 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 4: the prefrontal cortex and the frontal cortex that is responsible 30 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 4: for moral processing, moral information processing, and making key decisions 31 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 4: is immature in kids up to the age of twenty five. 32 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 4: So what do predators know about this? They might not 33 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 4: know anything about the science, but they do know the 34 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 4: kids want things, and kids need things, and kids don't 35 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: think too far into the future, especially about consequences, because 36 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 4: kids tend to feel immune, they tend to feel strong 37 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: and like they might know about certain situations, but it's 38 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 4: not going to apply to them. So they know that. 39 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: About kids. Parental provision is less than when they're not 40 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 4: much younger. These kids are inexperienced, They have a fairly 41 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 4: pliable morality. They can be talked into things that are 42 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 4: called soft limits. They have limits, but they can be enticed. 43 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: They have a fear of missing out. Thanks a lot 44 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: to social media, and they're willing to go on adventures, 45 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 4: they're willing to do things. If they want money, or drugs, 46 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 4: or alcohol, or or just excitement. They can be enticed 47 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 4: to do things that they might not ordinarily do just 48 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 4: to see what it's like, because they think nothing bad's 49 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 4: going to happen to them. So the predator knows this, 50 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 4: knows how to work them subtly into crossing the line 51 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 4: and then crossing another and another. 52 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: I think right out of the gate, you said something 53 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: that's so important about until the age of twenty five, 54 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people think, man, these kids, 55 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: I got them to the age eighteen. They're adults. You know, 56 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: they're on their own now, but you can't let them. 57 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: You're put off the gas until after they're done with college. 58 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 4: Well, age eighteen is it was an arbitrary number picked 59 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 4: and it was picked well before we do any that 60 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 4: we have the knowledge we have now about nerves, science 61 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 4: and the adolescent brain, and now we are beginning to 62 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 4: realize that the choices they make and the ways they 63 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 4: make these choices are very different from that of adults. 64 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 4: And so that age eighteen doesn't really make any difference 65 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 4: in some kids who are highly traumatized. They come out 66 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 4: of difficult homes, they've been afused, they've been neglected, they're 67 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 4: even more vulnerable. So this idea that once they hit 68 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 4: eighteen they're adults just doesn't work. It might work for 69 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 4: a very few kids, but for the most part, that image, sure, 70 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 4: it is physiological and. 71 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: Tracy you developed a relationship with Lane's mom, which I 72 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: thought was so brilliant. How important are generational relationships in 73 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: crime reduction? 74 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 5: I think generally when I've got three children, and every 75 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 5: child needs to have several adults in their lives to 76 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 5: guide the process for different reasons, different levels of trust, 77 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 5: on different occasions and circumstances that kids come into. And 78 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 5: so I believe that given the specific Henley family dynamic, 79 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 5: where you have Mary who's a devoted mother, but she's 80 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 5: in a perilous situation and her attention can't help but 81 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 5: be misdirected and redirected to all sorts of different children. 82 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 5: She's got four of them, she's got an abusive husband, 83 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 5: she's got a mother she's trying to take care of, 84 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 5: and eventually, if all those adults are caught in a conundrum, 85 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 5: those children are just flailing around they're not getting instruction 86 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 5: about how to behave appropriately, how to socialize appropriately, and 87 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 5: to have a kind of moral base. That's what adults 88 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 5: should be doing for children. A lot of times, it's 89 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 5: just impossible given the circumstances, though. 90 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: And y'all we are going to the source. Welcome back, Wayne. 91 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming back to Zone seven. Oh well, 92 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: I just wanted to tell you your generosity and your 93 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: willingness to share just your story and your honesty, especially 94 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: in crime prevention, is just appreciated. 95 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 3: I don't think it's not all. 96 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: I can do. I don't think it's enough. 97 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: Last time you said something that has stayed with me, 98 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: you said you don't earn trust, someone gives it to you. 99 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: Can you explain a little more about how you feel 100 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: about that and how it relates to preventing crime. 101 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: Give trust not long, which shows faith in them and 102 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: accompetence in. 103 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: Them, which which is helps mold it within the help 104 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: it within that person. Because if you have faith in me, 105 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: I'm likely more likely to try to live up to 106 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 3: that faith, and I'm going to continue to do. 107 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: Things that will make you want to trust me. 108 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 3: It's not something that just happens that's faith when you 109 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: get when you give someone trust, you have a faith 110 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: in them. It's feel like the pair that no one 111 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 3: hears them. Kids feel like that no one trust them. 112 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: Kids feel like that no one respects their judgments. And 113 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: the granted that their judgments are often and sure, but 114 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 3: if they feel like that they can talk to someone, someone. 115 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: Who has given them, has given them taken them. When 116 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: they can trust who they can talk to. 117 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: That someone, they're open to hearing what they have said. 118 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: The trusting their their own processes. 119 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: And doctor Ramslin, you talk about the predator's eye and 120 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: how predators can groom. Can you talk about that and 121 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: give maybe some examples. 122 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: Okay, the predator's i is akin to what is sports 123 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 4: psychology is called the quiet eye, and that's an enhanced 124 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,359 Speaker 4: visual perception that comes from heightened focus and from practice 125 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 4: for items in the environment that they particularly want that 126 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 4: they're they're homing in on. The eye brings them the 127 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 4: most relevant information for them optimal response and it's like 128 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: they develop the sixth sense. In the book, we talk 129 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 4: about the murder like like the radar. It's the murder 130 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 4: where they can sense the type of person that they 131 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 4: can bring into their you know, under their control. And 132 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: but the way they they do that with victims is 133 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 4: first they'll groom the community first. They'll they'll get a 134 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 4: sense of why they should be trusted with kids. They 135 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 4: make they'll make themselves likable like that's that's how Dean 136 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 4: Coral did it. He was like a big brother. He 137 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 4: got parents of these kids to like him and trust 138 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 4: him and believe whatever he said. He was giving kids 139 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 4: rise to the beach or to to the movies, he 140 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 4: was letting them hang out at his place. He was supplying, 141 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 4: supposedly supplying them with, you know, just fun things to do. 142 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 4: When it back, he was giving them drugs and alcohol 143 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: and money for sexual favors. But the pair didn't know that. 144 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 4: And a predator today might come into the community in 145 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 4: a position of trust, like a boy scout leader or 146 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 4: a youth pastor teacher or someone who tutors kids in 147 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 4: their home, and they will always extend themselves as this, 148 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 4: this is a help for parents, this is something good, 149 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 4: and they will will not seem creepy that they will 150 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 4: seem very likable, very trustworthy. They'll come with credentials, perhaps 151 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: educational credentials or other side. So it's some credentials that 152 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 4: people that will get people to trust them. So they're 153 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 4: growing the whole community, so that if a child then 154 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 4: wants to complain about something they're doing and bring us 155 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: to the attention of adults, the adults are already kind 156 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 4: of primed to say, oh, you know, not that person, 157 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 4: and to not believe the child because they are already 158 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 4: convinced by the predator that he or she is a 159 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 4: good person. 160 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: I have never heard it put that way that the 161 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: community was being groomed. Myself said, they're con artists. They 162 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: did an oakie dough, They pulled the wool over our eyes, whatever, 163 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: whether it's a deacon, a preacher, the scout leader. You 164 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: talked about teachers, but the way you just broke that down, 165 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: were missing it. 166 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: And of course we don't want to suspect everybody in 167 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 4: these positions, but this is what predators do. They find 168 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: the positions that they know people automatically instinctively trust, and 169 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 4: they put themselves there. 170 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: Tracy, you talk about that blurred line between a victim 171 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: and an accomplice. I mean that's something that people have 172 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: got to be aware of and recognize that for what 173 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: it is. Talk a little bit about that for me. 174 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 5: Let's say that all of the things that we're talking 175 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 5: about might have come to a header each of them 176 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 5: where we've got kids who are not being heard. We've 177 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 5: got a predator in the community who has groomed other 178 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 5: adults to believe them and not that child, and their 179 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 5: goals within that whole dynamic are to exploit that child, 180 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 5: either to abuse them or to get them to abuse 181 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 5: somebody else. And so when Wayne enters into that dynamic, 182 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 5: basically he doesn't have the community on his side because 183 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 5: he's being doubted. He has somebody who is focused solely 184 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 5: on his insecurities, low self esteem, all of his doubts, 185 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 5: all of his immaturity, and he is going to be 186 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 5: vulnerable to that predator. So then when that predator says 187 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 5: I want you to go out and get some other 188 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 5: victims for me, or that predator is going to direct 189 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 5: him to do things that are at odds with what 190 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 5: he believed, he doesn't have enough of a foundation to 191 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 5: prevent going deeper into that relationship because that individual, that predator, 192 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 5: has supplanted every other force in his life and he's 193 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 5: too young to know. I'm out of my depth. I 194 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 5: don't understand what's going on, but I don't know what 195 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 5: that is. And so when we're mature, oftentimes we get 196 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 5: the language for situations, romantic relationships, negotiating business. We're able 197 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:46,479 Speaker 5: over time to give ourselves the ability to navigate difficult 198 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 5: situations and negotiate them. When you're at the age of fourteen, 199 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 5: fifteen years old, if you think back to what you 200 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 5: were like, and that's all of us. What we were 201 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 5: like when we were fifteen, did not have the resources 202 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 5: that we have today. And so that partator is going 203 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 5: to win every time. 204 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: Sub planted that hit me, both of those you please, 205 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: But what Captor. 206 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 3: And and Cursy have both said in that the partative 207 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 3: grooms entire community, not just a child, but it also 208 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 3: sets up a future vision in the afrobat we as 209 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: a society. Uh. 210 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: And all three of there dis obmitted that the adults, 211 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: adults from the community were groomed, They had too over 212 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: our eyes, they were glued, they were printed. Uh don't 213 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: we don't deal with the child with pant in mind. 214 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: We automatically assume that the child. 215 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: Is responsible, he is cumfortable, he should pay for his crimes, 216 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: even though we admit the part of the the community, 217 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: we don't admit that he pulls a child. 218 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: And it's longness. 219 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: We're as a society is doing that the child, even 220 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,359 Speaker 2: if he has enough. 221 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 3: To shoot to realize the wrongness, it's easy. 222 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: And what's going to happen to him when he goes 223 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: to the police is that it doesn't matter anymore. They 224 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: are going to bring the hammer down on me. Why 225 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: do we admit that adults can be pulled with the child? 226 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: Nott? Why can the adults excuse himself. 227 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: Or not seeing the truth that we would give the 228 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: child a lot of sentence. 229 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: It makes no sense to me. 230 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: Must let Wayne, that is one thing my son hears 231 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: on this podcast that he can take to work with him. 232 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: That's the most just in your faith and accurate statement. 233 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: I've heard that if every parent that dropped their child 234 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: off at the Scout meeting could be fooled, how could 235 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: that child not be absolutely. 236 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 3: But we don't deal with it like that, I said 237 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 3: not to you are the public that we have no 238 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: circumstances consider a child under eighteen, if not under twenty five, 239 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: as an adult with prostitution. It topples in my mind. 240 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: I don't understand it. 241 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: And Wayne, are there other like signals and signs things 242 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: that we should be looking. 243 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: For or look for changes in the in the the 244 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: young person's normal activities and lifestyle. Look for changes in 245 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: their sleep, feeling away from friends and family. 246 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 2: Too much focus on the. 247 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: What the cursor. Uh, And I can't emphasize this enough. 248 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 3: When the when the young person comes and tries to 249 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 3: talk to you, they're gonna be editing. They're gonna they're 250 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 3: not gonna think. They're not gonna be sure of what 251 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 3: I'm trying to say. They're not gonna be sure what's 252 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: going on it somewhere trying to talk to. 253 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: You and immediately says, never mind until I forget about it. 254 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: It's nothing. 255 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 3: No, that's not true. You did to respond the way 256 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: they they needed you to, and they're immgally gonna fall 257 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: back because they're already assure themselves to be aware of that. 258 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: So that you can said, don't want to hold time 259 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 3: out restaurant over. 260 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 5: And can I just say something to further that my 261 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 5: rule in this has been a concern, you know, with 262 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 5: sex trafficking being an aspect of this case. Here we are, 263 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 5: we're coming up to the Super Bowl Game and this 264 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 5: is when the largest event for child sex trafficking occurs, 265 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 5: and a lot of people can't even process that We're 266 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 5: going to the Super Bowl, We're going to have wings 267 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 5: and pizza, We're going to be watching the two best 268 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 5: football teams. 269 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: Play in this nation. 270 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 5: And in the meantime, you are going to have the 271 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 5: most children trafficked and sexually abused at any other than 272 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 5: any other event during the year. And so when you 273 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 5: think about the reality of that, where do these kids 274 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 5: come from? Where do these networks come from? It's understanding 275 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 5: further to the conversation that we're having that you've got 276 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 5: a child who is vulnerable, You've got a community that's 277 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 5: looking the other way, you've got a parent that doesn't 278 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 5: understand the possibilities, and everybody walks into that blind and 279 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 5: it's that child that's going to pay. Certainly that will 280 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 5: have a knock on effect. This case had a huge 281 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 5: knock on effect at the time. But it's kind of 282 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 5: maybe a reminder that, you know, we're finally starting to 283 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 5: recognize human child sexual labor trafficking. When we sit down 284 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 5: in the restroom on a plane, we can see that 285 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 5: signage that says, if you're a victim of human trafficking, 286 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 5: feel free to tell you somebody on this plane and 287 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 5: you know, we need to be a little bit more aware. 288 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 5: I think during this period of time, it just never 289 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 5: occurred to anybody that we had a massive sex trafficking ring. 290 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 5: And it's only later buried in documents, government documents that 291 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 5: are hundreds of pages long, that you see the recognition 292 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 5: that this case is tied to a sex trafficking ring. 293 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 5: And I find it just very important to then understand 294 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 5: how small when Henley is in this equation, how much 295 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 5: money is being made by all these traffickers. 296 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: Well, I want to I want people to understanding it's 297 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: not just to get them girls. 298 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 2: They're being packed. 299 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: Uh. 300 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: We were treated to think that, you know, because when 301 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 2: you think of when people speak of human crafting, they 302 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: speaking the girls being major prostitute themselves. They thinking girls 303 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: being made. 304 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 3: To sell grums. 305 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 2: It's not just the girls, and it's. 306 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 3: It's every bit uh the boys. The boys are used. 307 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: The boys are abused, uh, and even more scared to 308 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 3: talk about it than the girl because their manhood is involved. 309 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: And they feel like that I saying well you know, 310 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: I yeah, I was handled down at you. It's like 311 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: a girl that somehow know their manhood is going to 312 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: be forever punished, so we have to be aware with it. 313 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: Some boys too, and Wade, do you think the internet 314 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: and people blackmailing young people saying that they're going to 315 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: publish something, post something, how does that factor in? 316 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: I would think when he didn't. Of course, again, these 317 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 3: are these are young adults. There kids, but they're they're 318 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 3: also young adults who are trying to establish themselves, who 319 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 3: are trying to get people to see them and say 320 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 3: envisioned themselves as society tells. And they're supposed to go 321 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 3: in through and you want someone come and says, you 322 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 3: know what, I'm gonna FicT your work. Everybody knows that 323 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 3: you are have. 324 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: Always been this when you've almost done that or that's 325 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: scary for a young person, and kids especially are aware 326 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: and you've heard the times to intergate it forever. That's 327 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 2: about afficting. 328 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: Them now, Doctor Ramslin, y'all, I added a checklist at 329 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: the end of the book where you offer tips to 330 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: parents and teachers and counselors. Can you give us a 331 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: few of them? 332 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: But yes, I have a long list, so I won't 333 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 4: go through all of them, of course, but certainly you're 334 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 4: watching the kids for certain signals like app changes and 335 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 4: appetite changes in sleep, seeming to be troubled about something withdrawing, 336 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 4: So those that's one of the things. But you're also 337 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: you have to be aware of adults who spend most 338 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 4: of their time with kids and don't invite other adults 339 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 4: to be part of that, because that is what we 340 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 4: see a lot with these predators who are going after kids. 341 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 4: Teach the kids about growing behavior and the importance of 342 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 4: telling somebody if it happens. So you talk with them 343 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 4: about the idea of harmful secrets and that adults would 344 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: not be asking them to keep secrets like this, because 345 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 4: that's one of the predators moves is don't this is 346 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 4: our secret. If this gets out, something something bad's going 347 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 4: to happen to your family, or something bad's going to 348 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 4: happen to your sister or you know, subth like that. 349 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 4: And so you discuss with kids the concept of respect, consent, 350 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 4: and gut feeling, so that the kids know how to react, 351 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 4: know how to react early in the process, and try 352 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 4: to get it stopped. 353 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: Wayne, I'm going to give you the last word. You're 354 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: the ultimate expert here. You got pulled into murder when 355 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: you were a kid. Right now, you live twenty four 356 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: to seven with criminals who try to con other criminals, 357 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: especially young and weak inmates. So I'm just going to 358 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: ask you, how do we save them? 359 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 3: Well, person's got to answer. Education and ad answer, understanding 360 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: of answer and call them with your answer. They coming 361 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 3: here and it's we're having it's it's what it will. 362 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 3: Just still be quiet, mindful business. That's not the it 363 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: works the ganger. 364 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 2: Uh. 365 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: The other predators are randoms and they continue what they 366 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: were doing in here. 367 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: So no, some young young people, person's not the answer. Uh. 368 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 3: And you when I was kid and I want one, 369 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: we're all kids. 370 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: If you'll remember, h if a young guy, a boy 371 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: was continuing to get in trouble you in the military, 372 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: you remember that because jut opportunity in vitory military. That 373 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: was a good answer. 374 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: Maybe not to be maybe we could do better. But 375 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 3: but persons not the answer. You offic not to answer. 376 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: And we we we need to teach the young people 377 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: because if had I known where you. 378 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: Now, I would have want police. The vast majority of 379 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: police aren't the pantcast that you see on t V, 380 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: after the hard asses that you see on TV. 381 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: They're just other people. 382 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: In the community, kinder to keep the community ship, go 383 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: to police. 384 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: Because if anyone understands what's going on with you, it's 385 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: gonna be a cop said, I don't know. I don't 386 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: know the one answer. 387 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be a whole lot of different answers. 388 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: But the first and promotion is going to read we 389 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: as a society, we as individuals must be involved. Doesn't 390 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: matter if somebody else's kids, does matter that you don't 391 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: have any kids. We must be involved. It was never a. 392 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: Trite uh saying when you said raised the children's community prayer. 393 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: It is amen, and I can't agree with you. More education, communication, 394 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: and involvement right on dramsling any last well, I think the. 395 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 4: Book, when we decided to write this, had a lot 396 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 4: to do with Wayne wanting to get this message out 397 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 4: because clearly, despite being an accomplice to a serial killer, 398 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 4: he was also a victim pulled into it, leveraged into it, 399 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 4: and he did try telling people they did not listen 400 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 4: to him, and that's I think one of the most 401 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 4: important parts of what he has wanted to get across 402 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 4: is you have to listen to the kids, even if 403 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 4: it goes against somebody who seems to be a great guy. 404 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 4: Have to listen, you have to investigate, you have to 405 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 4: explore the possibility and be open to it. And I 406 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 4: think that's a lot of this could have been avoided 407 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 4: had somebody listened. 408 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, that is definitely true. I am just very happy 409 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 5: that this story is getting out. I think that it 410 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 5: has a lot of lessons for today. This is not 411 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 5: just lost to history in the nineteen seven is very current. 412 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 5: And you know, I think that the longer you know, 413 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 5: I exist as a person in the world, the more 414 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 5: I realize that human connection, that love, that respect, It 415 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 5: is just so essentially at the base of our existence 416 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 5: and our happiness. And I think that people have somehow 417 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 5: traded that off, you know, in some ways, and it 418 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 5: really is an inescapable truth. And I think that further 419 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 5: to Wayne's point, you're bringing children into this world. If 420 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 5: you are you know, somebody who is responsible for children, 421 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 5: you know, you are their guide to the rest of 422 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 5: their lives, and it's just so important to take that seriously. 423 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: And Wayne, I'm going to tell you and I are 424 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: both in our sixties, and I got less in front 425 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: of me that I got behind me, you know what 426 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean? And It is just a wonderful thing that 427 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: you are choosing to try to help people in the 428 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: situation you're in, the history that you had, the mistreatment 429 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: that you received. So I again just want to tell 430 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: you thank you for using this part of your life 431 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: to try to save somebody. 432 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 3: I appreciate that, but. 433 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that there's not much anybody's life. You 434 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: have one minute last you turn out contributing to to 435 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: the people around you, and it doesn't matter whether you're 436 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: in prison or or. 437 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: A convent or beds. 438 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: You can contribute to a better life for everybody who 439 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: you should try, and I appreciate you. 440 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 3: Giving me a chance to try. 441 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I 442 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: always do with a quote. I have to accept that 443 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: any child, because that's what I was. Any child could 444 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: be manipulated. Given the right buttons were pushed, and Dean 445 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: pushed all my buttons. Wayne Henley on the Zone seven podcast. 446 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.