1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: What do you do in life doesn't go according to plan? 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week I sit down 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are cut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: answers one question. Now, what did you ever see that 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: on job search? There was a person interviewing these potential 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: prospects and they go through a list of what the 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: job entails, and it's three and sixty five days work 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: a year, no paid leave, no time off, no vacations. 16 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: You have to clean up everything, fluids and your fluids, 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: bodily fluids, etcetera. And and then you watch these people say, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: what what is the job? And then the person says motherhood? 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, yeah. My guest today is Angela Garbis. 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: Angela is a writer, a thought leader, and the author 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: of two books, including her bestseller Essential Labor, Mothering is 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: Social Change. Reading it made me think more clearly about 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: my own labor and the importance of care work, both 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: inside and outside of the home. But that's not the 25 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: only reason I wanted to talk to Angela. Her book 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: also sets up what I feel is a very clear 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: now what moment for our society. How do we shift 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: our collective view of care work to mess dick work 29 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: and parenting given all that we learned during the COVID pandemic. 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating conversation, and I'm so excited to bring 31 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: Angela's voice and her important ideas to this show. So 32 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Angela Garbash. First of all, 33 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to do this. 34 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed your book. I both listened to it 35 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: and then did my little highlighting and underlining things. It 36 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: really taught me a lot. I feel that also taught 37 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: me how much more I have to learn. But in 38 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: Essential Labor, you really challenge the reader to re examine 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: how they look at their own labor, not just their 40 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: own labor, but the work of those around them, and 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: how to define it and how we value it. Can 42 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that, because I think 43 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: that has gone through a lot of changes. But I'm 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: interested in what you really think it's the most important 45 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: about that concept. So I think that taking care of 46 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: ourselves care work, domestic work. I'm thinking about all those 47 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: things like getting up and taking a shower, changing the bedsheets, 48 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: cooking some food, listening to your body, all of these 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: things like that we really take for granted. And I 50 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: was I grew up. You know, both of my parents 51 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: worked full time. I had a pretty comfortable upbringing. I 52 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: didn't consider how much work went into maintaining our family 53 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: and raising us and keeping us loved and fed and 54 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: clothed right. And when I became a parent, I found 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 1: it really humbling. I started thinking, like, gosh, how did 56 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: my mom do this right? Like, she worked full time, 57 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: she had three children, she was a new person in 58 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: this country, she was separated from her family and support system. 59 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways, I've been catching up, 60 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: but I think I've been thinking about care work for 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: most of my life. My mother also worked as a nurse. 62 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: She was a hospice nurse who took care of people 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: in their last stages of life, you know, intended to 64 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: their families, and that sort of perspective that I gained 65 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: becoming a mother and growing older, was beginning to see 66 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 1: my mother as a person and all of the work 67 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: she did, both professionally and personally caring for people well. 68 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: And what you started off with is self care, which 69 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: is the interpretation of self care not being an act 70 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 1: of selfishness or ego, but actually preparing you to even 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: be more essential and helpful to those around you. Did 72 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: your mom see that differently? I grew up in a 73 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: household where I think that love was demonstrated, and especially 74 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: motherhood and mothering was sacrifice. You know. I think that 75 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: my mother often um put her own needs last. You know, 76 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: she still got herself at the door and was you know, 77 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: put herself together. But that's what I mean. I think that, like, 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,119 Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about self care like you know, lighting 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: a candle and taking a bath. I'm talking about just 80 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: basic care that so many of us take for granted. 81 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: But is the thing that makes all other work possible? Right, 82 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: If we don't have food in our pantry, you know, 83 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: if we don't have running water, if we don't have 84 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: someone you know, waking us up, in the morning and 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: getting us out the door. We can't do anything else, 86 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: and so I want to kind of expand this idea 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: of caring and mothering to call a lot of people 88 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: in and to show that we do this work for ourselves, 89 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: and we do this work for our children, We do 90 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: this work for our elders and people who are sick, 91 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: and people who just needed a little extra love. And 92 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: part of the way that this book came about was 93 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: that at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, I 94 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: have two daughters, they are seven and four now, and 95 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: our preschool shut down. So I was with my children 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: twenty four seven for four straight months, and that was 97 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: very intense. And as much as I knew that that 98 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: was the most important work I could be doing, you know, 99 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: keeping them safe, keeping my community safe and healthy, I 100 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: felt really like, oh God, this is this is a 101 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: lot of work. And this was a time in the 102 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: pandemic when we were talking about essential workers, right, we 103 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: were talking about health care workers, we were talking about 104 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: sanitation workers and teachers, and I believe all of those 105 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: people are essential workers. But I couldn't get around the idea. 106 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: I just kept feeling like, what about me? What about parents, 107 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: what about mothers, Like we are all working twenty four seven, 108 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: We were working around the clock professionally taking care of 109 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: our kids, and it feels pretty damn essential what we're doing, 110 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: and why aren't we talking about us this way? You know, 111 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: I had a single mom. I always thought that i'd 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: be a single mom for some reason. And what's so 113 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: strange is what I discovered during the pandemic was that 114 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: I really thought that it was going to instantly be 115 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: shared and equal. And the number of times that my 116 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: husband would say to me, yeah, but you're the mom, 117 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: and I feel like, what can we can we pause here? 118 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Can we unpack this? Like? Yeah? And it wasn't just 119 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: the idea of things that I had to attend to 120 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: or you know, I I we started trying to divide 121 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: it and I said, okay, look, I'll do all the 122 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: sheets and all the towels, but you each have to 123 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 1: be responsible for your own laundry. And they didn't balk 124 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: at it. It was sort of seamless. The one person 125 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: who didn't do any of the laundry was my husband, 126 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: which I didn't hold against him because he's a really 127 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: good cook. Right, So it was all these different ways 128 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: we navigated, but there was a sense of uselessness and 129 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: depression that I felt because the work that was done 130 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: never got finished, and there didn't seem like there was 131 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: a lot of thanks. Yeah, but I think most people 132 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: who are mothers and who go into it with eyes 133 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: open in any way, no, Like you don't go into 134 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: parenting to be celebrated every day like it's it's in 135 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: some ways a thankless job. I wanted unconditional love. The 136 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: things that are most rewarding about it are very private, right, 137 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: like the like the way a child like holds your hand, 138 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: or the way that you know that you comfort them 139 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: like that only you can do. It's very satisfying, but 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: it's extremely difficult to quantify. It has no monetary value, 141 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: and if you try to describe it to anyone, it's weird. 142 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: It's very ephemeral. But yeah, I definitely felt like in 143 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: my household, like my husband and I have more conversations 144 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: than I would like about logistics, like how do we 145 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: divide things as equitably as possible? And I just know, 146 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: like I think ahead about things in a way that 147 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: he does not, Like if I know I'm making dinner, 148 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it like the day ahead or like 149 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: in the morning, like what's in our fridge And he's 150 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: like opening the refrigerator at five thirty being like what 151 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: do we got? And I I don't understand that at all, Right, 152 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: but so I think, you know, it's partly the way 153 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: we are conditioned and the way we are brought up. 154 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: And even like great men, right, um, feminist men are 155 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: they have massive blind spots that they're not often aware of. 156 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's like you're the CEO of a company. 157 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, you're running a production company. You know, it 158 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: happens to have these different characters, these different actors that 159 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: are playing different roles in their lives, and you know 160 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: when they're very needy, as many actors can be. But 161 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: you talk about raising children as a social responsibility, yeah, 162 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: one that requires robust community support. But in America that 163 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: is not necessarily the way we're taught or the way 164 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: we are organized as a society. Can you talk a 165 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: little bit about that. Yeah, So the primary way that 166 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: we organize family and can in America is the nuclear family. 167 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: We hear about this, right, it's like a mom and 168 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: a dad and like two point four kids or something, right, like, 169 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: based on the data and it's a very distinct American 170 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: modern way, Like the nuclear family has not been around 171 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: really for that long. It's been maybe around for like 172 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: a century, maybe less than that. And if you were 173 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: to sort of like zoom out, the way people have 174 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: lived all around the world for centuries is more communally. 175 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: I mean, even the the original nuclear family in America 176 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: was like a man goes out to work and a 177 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: wife stays home, which is why school gets out at 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: two thirty. But modern America now women both want to 179 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: work out of the home, and also life is so 180 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: expensive that most households need to parents working. And because 181 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: in the United States, we don't guarantee basic human rights 182 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: right healthcare is tied to working. We don't guarantee housing, 183 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: we don't guarantee family leave, um, we don't guarantee education. 184 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: So we all have to work and we're all left 185 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: feeling like these are my individual problems to solve. Where 186 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: I believe that you know, you and I are here 187 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: not because one person raised us. We're here because a 188 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: group of people raised us, right, Like there were babysitters, 189 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: there were nanny's, there were teachers, there were mentors. Right 190 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: the future of our existence as people and the continuation 191 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: of America relies on on having a next generation of 192 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: both you know, consumers and workers and just people. I'm 193 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: really curious because if this why is why is this 194 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: the right time for our society to start rethinking the 195 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: definitinition of labor as essential and how do we kind 196 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 1: of how do we go about attaining that and redefining it. 197 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: So the care crisis as UM, we've all seen it. 198 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: So when when schools and daycares and preschools shut down, 199 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: we were lost, right, Like, there are two million less 200 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: women in the professional workforce right now than there were 201 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: at the start of the pandemic. What do we lose? 202 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: Do you think when women disappear? I mean, I think 203 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: every parent is a working parent, whether they work outside 204 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: of the home or not. But women's participation in the 205 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: professional workforce outside of the home directly impacts our involvement 206 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: in public life. It makes me sad to think about 207 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: what we've lost. We've lost their art, we've lost their 208 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: policy ideas, we've lost UM their research contributions. Right, we've 209 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: lost just women engaging um in discourse about what we 210 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: need to be doing. And and those are the things 211 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: that we're missing. The reason why we don't have you know, 212 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: childcare and family leave is because the majority of people 213 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: who represent us in government are old white men. Right, 214 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: And so I think about how we've never had a 215 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: president who knows why it's important to have like a 216 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: maternity leave policy or a family leave policy. Well, it 217 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: used to be frowned upon. It was like, oh, are 218 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: you going to be able to do your job if 219 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: you have a baby, if you become a mother, It's 220 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: that going to ruin everything that you are as a 221 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: business person. Yeah, and we've seen now that it doesn't 222 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: mean that some women are able to have both of 223 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: those things, or I mean, I don't think it's possible 224 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: to have it all. If you're I mean at all, 225 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: it means you're you're figuring out how to do it all. 226 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: And this is one thing that was exposed in the pandemic. Right, 227 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: So even people and I am luckily enough to count 228 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: myself among them, I can outsource some of my childcare 229 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: right to preschool teachers or to a babysitter. Right. The 230 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: care crisis existed before the pandemic. It's just that some 231 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: of us felt it more than others in the pandemic. When, 232 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: as I said, all of these mothers were dropping out 233 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: of the workforce because they could not do professional work 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: and domestic work and also you know, manage online school. 235 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: We saw like there was a wave of articles where 236 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: people are like, women are not okay. You know, America 237 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: doesn't have a social safety net. It has mothers, and 238 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: even mothers who like you know, say are like the 239 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: CEO of a company when they're like nannies could't show up, 240 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: but their babysitters couldn't show with their house cleaners couldn't 241 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: show up. They were all like, wait a second, I've 242 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: done everything, I've leaned in and yet it all comes 243 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: down to me. And I think this is the opportunity 244 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: to see that we need we hide this work, this 245 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: domestic labor, right, and we don't pay people very well. 246 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: People who do domestic labor are three times as likely 247 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: to live in poverty as people who do any other job. 248 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: But now is the time to say I saw this 249 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: like this was exposed the sort of um, the way 250 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: we've struck your American life is not actually sustainable. Well, 251 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: and like you said before, I mean this show is 252 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: about pivotal moments, and are now what moments? And I 253 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: think that this is a very very strong moment. But 254 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: I also think that there's something that you touch upon, 255 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear a little bit more about 256 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: it is the guilt around not being a stay at 257 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: home mom. I remember getting really depressed right after I 258 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: had my first child, and part of it was because 259 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: why I wanted to have a child so so terribly 260 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: and it was difficult for me. But then I felt 261 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: flattened because was I only supposed to be a mother 262 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: at that point and that was never I I wasn't 263 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: prepared for that, because I wasn't all of who I 264 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: am in that moment, and it took it really took 265 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: a long time to find a version of balance, which 266 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: I don't ever really think it feels balanced. I think 267 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: of it more as like you're juggling right and on 268 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: a good day you've you've got three or four balls 269 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: in the air, but inevitably something gets dropped right. It's 270 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: just like it's just the way it is, and you 271 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: kind of have to be like, well, that's what happened today, 272 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna keep going. But I also think 273 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: it's our social responsibility to as we are being re 274 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: educated and how we look at this really having those 275 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: conversations with your children too, because we're raising this next 276 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: generation of hopefully conscious of the different levels of what 277 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: it means and how it's never just one thing. Yeah, 278 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up, because the sort of 279 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: piggyback off that idea of you know, we both felt flattened, 280 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: like we were losing our minds a little bit doing 281 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: all of this care work. Part of the reason why 282 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: I wrote this book is to remind im myself that yes, 283 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: like parenting oftentimes is drudgery, it's repetitive work, and um, 284 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: it's hard, it's a real slog day in and day out, 285 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: but it does have tremendous power and meaning. You know, 286 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: this is where we get to impart the values that 287 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: are important to us, like to our children. This is 288 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: where we get to speak to our children and say yes, 289 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: like I love you so much and I'm never gonna 290 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: stop taking care of you, but you should say thank 291 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: you because getting dinner on the table is work, right, 292 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and like, yes, I love you and I want to 293 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: spend time with you. But if if Mama doesn't have 294 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: time to go work, like to perform to you know, 295 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: like be on set or for me like to sit 296 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: in front of my computer and think and write. Then 297 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: I don't feel like my whole self and I can't 298 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: show up for you. And those are conversations that my 299 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: parents didn't have with me, right, And I think women 300 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: of previous generations we're not able to be their whole 301 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: selves in the way that we are, And it's still 302 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: work to do it. Like I sort of fight to 303 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: take up space and say that I'm allowed to have 304 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: all of these things. But this is a real opportunity 305 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: so that our daughters and our children it's a little 306 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: less hard for them. Maybe it won't be less hard, 307 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: but but they'll have an understanding, and they're that understanding 308 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: will give them a certain power because they will they 309 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: will have seen it, they will have seen it in action, 310 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's important. But say, for 311 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: people who do struggle financially, right, what can we do 312 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: to sort of compensate, Because you talk about compensating domestic workers. 313 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: If we don't have a lot of money ourselves, the 314 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: standard for the industry is low for what we pay people. 315 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: That is not our individual problem to solve, like this 316 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: is a societal and structural one, right, I think we 317 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: should pay people as much as we can, and to 318 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: see this work is just as valuable as as the 319 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: work we are going to go do, Like we hire 320 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: someone to take care of our kids so we can 321 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: do something like they're equal. All work is good work. 322 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, childcare is not less skilled than anything else. 323 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: Like we're really kind of fooling ourselves if we think that. 324 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: And I think the way we begin to value that, 325 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: well want it's to You know, a lot of these 326 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: workers are mothers themselves, so I always wonder, like, who's 327 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: taking care of their children? And you know, we had 328 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: a nanny share my husband and I an two families 329 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: that we're still friends with. Um when are little ones. 330 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: This is almost ten years ago. She was always allowed 331 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: to bring her son, Bruce was his name, and he 332 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: was three, and I was like, this is great because 333 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: the children have another child to interact with, she doesn't 334 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: have to worry, she doesn't have to pay for childcare. 335 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: So I think there's there's we can just be creative, right, 336 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: we can find out the people who we hired to 337 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: do this work, what's going on in their life. Bruce 338 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: sounds like a year old, by the way, That's why 339 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned his name. He was Bruce you're Angela, Yeah, totally, 340 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: he was. He was three and he had a wonderful 341 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: bowl cut, and it would just be like, hey, he 342 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: came into came to your house in a little suit. Um. 343 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: You've talked a lot about the phrase of skilled versus unskilled. Yeah, 344 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: why do you think care work isn't seen as skilled 345 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: labor though? Because we don't define it as that because 346 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: women do it, because we expect women to do it, 347 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: and because it's in the home, because it's not like 348 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: outside in professional world. I think it's very sexist and 349 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: it's racist too, because we have in America work that 350 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: happens in the home, which is domestic labor and care work. 351 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: It's because of slavery. The home has always been a 352 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: site of work for black women in America, and we're 353 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: comfortable paying people lower wages because in America we've come 354 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: of age with this idea that people of color work 355 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: in the home, right, and we're okay paying liber wages. 356 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: That's a legacy of slavery. You and I just talked 357 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: about how doing just care work for several months made 358 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: us want to like die, right, like because it's hard work, 359 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: Like it is not easy. Well, you call it highly 360 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: skilled labor. It's highly skilled, like you said, CEO, management 361 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: of a household, right, multitasking, keeping tracked, to keep a 362 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: human being alive. Yes, yes, all of it, and to 363 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: tend to their emotional and psychological needs, which is some 364 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: of the hardest stuff and some of the most exhausting. 365 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: You talk about it women as being characterized as in servitude. Yeah, 366 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: this is what you're talking about, right, I'm thinking about it. Yes, 367 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: doing care work and like mothers are expected to do 368 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: this for free. Let's go back to the CEO, the 369 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: female CEO that I was talking about, who has had 370 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: a housekeeper and a nanny and you know, a lot 371 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: of support, and then the pandemic, they all went away 372 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: because she couldn't have someone coming to her home and 373 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: do those things. And then she felt like what am 374 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: I doing? Like I'm still somehow in charge of everything 375 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: here in my home. Because no matter how successful you 376 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: are in relationship to the male world in America, which 377 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: is you know, patriarchy, all women are in a condition 378 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: of servitude. And this is I think what's hard for 379 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people is that we are not so 380 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: different from the people we hire to do this work. 381 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: And I really believe like we need to see ourselves 382 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: as being in solidarity with that, because if we can 383 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: win workers rights and a living wage for the people 384 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: who we hire to do this work, actually parents, you know, 385 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: we're one step closer to being able to say this 386 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: work is valuable and and parents should be paid for 387 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: this work, and parents should be compensated. H Do you 388 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: see some changes happening where there's paid leave that's longer, 389 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: or paid leave for the not just the father or 390 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: the mother. Yeah, I mean I think now we don't 391 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: think of it as just maternity leave. We talk about 392 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: it as family right and that father should take that, 393 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: and we also talk about it in terms of it's 394 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: not just about someone giving birth to a child. It's 395 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: like if you're adopting, if you're welcoming a foster child 396 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: into your home, if your mother gets sick and you 397 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: need to take care of them as elder care. I mean, 398 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: at some point in your life, everyone you know, including yourself, 399 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: is going to need care and time to do that. 400 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: And so I see those changes happening in policies. Yes, 401 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: I also see you know, the pandemic, it's terrible and 402 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: it's still going on and it's terrible. But there's something 403 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: that gives me hope, which is that, you know, I 404 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: formed a pod with another family. We heard about mutual aid, 405 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: We heard about community kitchens and community of refrigerators and 406 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: little free libraries. And to me, all of that was 407 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: people saying I can't do this by myself. I need help, 408 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: and people stepping in and saying I can't do this 409 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: by myself either, and I want to help you. How 410 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: can we help each other? And so what I see 411 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: all around me or people have been doing that for 412 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: the last two years, and I don't want that to 413 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: go away. As you said, like, this is a pivotal moment. 414 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: It's a once in a generation moment, if you If 415 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that, yes, and it's time to invest 416 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: in the people who mother, not who are mothers of children, 417 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: but who mother, who caretake And my mom, you know, 418 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: she used to say to me, she'd say, don't kid yourself. 419 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: She said blood is not thicker than water. And I 420 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: used to think, like, well, that's terrible, and how do 421 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: you And yet we relied so much on her friends. 422 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,719 Speaker 1: And we have that a lot in our family with 423 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: our girls, and I watch their different relationships with these 424 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: people in our lives. I watched the different relationships with 425 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: other friends mothers, and instead of getting jealous and said, well, 426 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: why don't you talk to me about that stuff? I'm 427 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: your mother, I realized that there are some of their 428 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: children that come to me and confide in me, and 429 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: I it's not a problem, like I don't run back 430 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: to the mom and you know, but I watch myself 431 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: be a different voice in their life, a non judgmental 432 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: voice that wants to help them. And doesn't that feel great? 433 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: Doesn't that feel great to do that for other people? Well? 434 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: It is. It's interesting, is because I used to be 435 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: really hung up on the fact that I was sort 436 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: of bohemian and you know, I don't have a meal 437 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: on the table, and you know, and then when I 438 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: thought I couldn't have children, I thought, what am I? 439 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: Who am I? That's all I ever wanted to be 440 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: in this sort of identity that was tied into being 441 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: able to provide a child to the world appropriation, you know. 442 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: And I realized, after having two children and seeing other 443 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: people's children, that there were so many other ways that 444 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: I could contribute that I didn't have a little apron 445 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: on and have a perfect meal or a big gorgeous 446 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: cookies or whatever, because those were all the things I 447 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: grew up thinking we're valuable when I couldn't have been farther. 448 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: It's just not reality, and especially now, like we look different, 449 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: our lives look different, society has changed, right, and we 450 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: need like I love this. I want my daughters to 451 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: have someone like you, like who I can't be everything 452 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: to them, And that again goes back to that social responsibility, 453 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,479 Speaker 1: you know, like one parent is not enough, two parents 454 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: is not enough, right, Like I need we need like 455 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: in laws, aunties, like I said that chosen family, Like 456 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: you don't have to have a desire for children. You 457 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: don't have to particularly like children. I think it's great 458 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: if you know you don't. I don't. I don't like 459 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: a lot of other people's children because I don't always 460 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: like mine. But it's so nice to be able to 461 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: you can still have meaningful relationships right with younger people, 462 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: with older people, right with your peers. Like that's just 463 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: being human and that's just the that care. I'm curious 464 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: to see what your mother thinks of these sort of 465 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: new new ideas, just because that was an interesting piece 466 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: in the way your mother grew up and the rules 467 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: that she had with regards to being the mother in 468 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: the household. Yeah, I mean my mother grew up in 469 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: the Philippines and it's a very different culture. You know, 470 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: she felt, um, women are expected to you know, really 471 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: run the household and to I mean, it's almost like 472 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: you serve at the pleasure of your husband kind of 473 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: a thing. Um. And a lot of what she was 474 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: taught was about sacrifice and being making herself small and 475 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: her own desires like took a back seat to everyone else's. UM. 476 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: And there's a huge obligation to family in Filipino culture. 477 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: I think like that sort of wide family of like 478 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: being close to lots of people, having extended family is 479 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: something that I want more of in my life. And 480 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: when my mother moved here to America, she just didn't 481 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: have that kind of community, and my parents kind of 482 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: really doubled down into um, you know, like an isolated life. 483 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: But also my mother grew up with maids. You know, 484 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: in the Philippines, having domestic help is normal. You don't 485 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: have to be rich to have a made It's just 486 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: kind of you know, in a country that is poor 487 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: and that still has a developing economy, it is really 488 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: like there's somebody always poorer than you, and so domestic 489 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: work is very, very common, and I have mixed feelings 490 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: about that, and so does my mother. You know. I 491 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: think when we would go back to the Philippines, I 492 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: could tell she was uncomfortable with having people, um, you know, 493 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: like weight on us, do our laundry, clear the table. 494 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: I grew up being told my mother used to say, 495 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm not your maid, so like you need to do 496 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: the dishes and do all of these things. But um, 497 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: over time, I've seen her really she she just respects 498 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: the domestic workers and the maids authority and lets them 499 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: do their job. And she has like I've seen this 500 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: over like the last few decades where she says to me, 501 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: who am I to say that I can do their 502 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: job better than them? I can't. I loved that, Yeah, 503 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think it's really when I go to the Philippines, 504 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: it is like, I know people are not making a 505 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: lot of money, but like a job is a job 506 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: and work is work, and I see them as occupying 507 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: a place that's it's they're very integral to the families 508 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: and it's it's complicated and I don't have like a 509 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: one answer like, oh, it's it's good or it's bad, right, 510 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: But one thing that I've been struck by is how 511 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: it feels very honest. You know, the maids are not hidden, 512 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: the people who do the laundry, They're part of the household. 513 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: Everyone knows them. And I think about how in America 514 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: we hide that work away. So you're wanting to bring 515 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: it more to the forefront in opening the discussion about empowering. Yeah, 516 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: domestic workers are important and there's no shame, Like if 517 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: you are fortunate enough to be able to afford, you know, 518 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: someone in your home to help, I don't want to 519 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: take that away from you. I think that's great. I 520 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: think that's fantastic because people can't do it all right. 521 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: But I think the more of that domestic workers feel valued, 522 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: I think there would be less shame, resentment, a division, 523 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, and it's not this less than type of 524 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: of a regard, but really trying to uphold that. And 525 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: I think that that message comes through very clearly in 526 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: your book. And I think it's important because you grew 527 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: up with two very different distinct approaches to it. So 528 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: if you were to look back at your life and 529 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: just your whole journey which is continuing on. Yes, hopefully 530 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: we'll continue for years now. Yes, absolutely. What have you 531 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: learned and what do you think is the through line? 532 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: You know, I became a writer because growing up I 533 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: was again like, I'm a woman of color. I grew 534 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: up in a mostly white town. I saw how I 535 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: just always felt like I was on the outside of things, 536 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of saw things for the outside. 537 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the world is not meant for me. 538 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: My food is different from whatever normal food is. And 539 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: I think this idea of normal is something that I've 540 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: always butted up against and and felt like why am 541 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: I not included in that? Like why why is my 542 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: family who is so wonderful and we're great? And I 543 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: love our food more than like pizza, I'd rather eat 544 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: Filipino food. And I've always been sort of wrestling with this, 545 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: like why is it that I know we are important 546 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: and we matter, but I'm I feel like to the 547 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: outside world, outside of our home, we don't. And I 548 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 1: think I became a writer in a lot of ways 549 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: to right myself into the story. And so a lot 550 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: of my work, like from a young age, and what 551 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: I do now is to insist that everyone's story matters, right, 552 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: and there's a place for everyone, and everyone is valuable 553 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: and we are equal. We have more in common than 554 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: we do not. I also think that what you sort 555 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: of you encapsulate is this idea that when you say 556 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: you're writing yourself into the story, you are making yourself visible, 557 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: and you're making yourself not necessarily loud in an angry way, 558 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: but heard, heard and seen, and that with books like your, 559 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: I think the dialogue and the rhetoric around it, and 560 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: the narrative itself is changing for the good. It may 561 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,479 Speaker 1: take a while, but again, like we started, we're works 562 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: in progress. Yes, no, I love that, Thank you. I 563 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: feel really hopeful too, And I think about how you know, 564 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: change is slow, sometimes frustratingly so right, and that's growth. Yeah, 565 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like it's ah, we're just on that journey. 566 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: And but I share that same hope and I sense 567 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: that I know it from talking to people, and I'm 568 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: so happy to be I feel really honored to be 569 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: part of moving that conversational law that was the wise 570 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: and wonderful Angela Garbas. If you want to hear more 571 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: from her, pick up a copy of her book, Essential 572 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: Labor Mothering as Social change. You'll be happy you did. 573 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: That is all for us today. Talk to you next 574 00:30:53,360 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: week now. What is produced by the wonderful Julie A. 575 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: Weaver with help from Darby Masters. Our executive producer is 576 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Bahid Fraser and 577 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: Christian Bowman. A special thanks to nicky Etre and Will Pearson. 578 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please subscribe to the show 579 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 580 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: you get your shows.