1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero I am Akshatrati. This week a landmark 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: court case. Picture the scene. We are in the Peace 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Palace of the Hague in a dark wood paneled room. 4 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: There are fifteen judges wearing black counts and white products. 5 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: The room is filled with people, all gathered to hear 6 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: the result of a major climate case. 7 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: The court meets today to deliver its advisory opinion on 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: that request submitted by the General Assembly of the United 9 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 2: Nations and the question of the obligations of states in 10 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: respect of climate change. 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: Among the audience is a group of law students from 12 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: the Pacific Islands who's six years earlier set in motion 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: the case that has now made it to the world's 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: highest court, the International Court of Justice. The students wanted 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: answers to two important questions, what responsibilities do countries have 16 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: to stop climate change? And if countries don't stop polluting, 17 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: will they get in trouble. Fifteen judges from fifteen countries, 18 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: including one from the US, heard submissions from more than 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: one hundred countries over the last six months. Then last 20 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: week the judges gave a verdict, a unanimous one, and 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: it was delivered by Judge Yuji Ivasawa. 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: The Court unanimously is of the opinion that the Climate 23 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: Change Treaties set forth binding obligations for state parties to 24 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: ensure the protection of the climate system and other parts 25 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: of the environment from anthropogetic greenhouse gas emissions. 26 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: The reading of the entire verdict is about two hours long, 27 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: worth listening if you have the time, but here's the 28 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: brief version. The court said governments have a legal duty 29 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: to act on climate change, whether you're party to the 30 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement or not, and the countries that fail could 31 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: be in breach of international law even liable to pay 32 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: reparations to the countries most affected. This word sounds like 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: a big win on paper, is it? And how will 34 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: it change the legal fight against climate change. Here to 35 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: answer these questions is Laura Clark, CEO of Client Earth, 36 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: an environmental NGO that uses law to hold polluters to account. 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: They are famous for taking organizations like Shell and even 38 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: the UK government to court for not meeting their climate obligations. Laura, 39 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. 40 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's lovely to be with you. 41 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: So I suspect many people are hearing about the International 42 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: Court of Justice the ICJ for the first time. What 43 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: is the significance of that court is its jurisdiction. 44 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: Well, the ICJ is the most important international court there is. 45 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 3: It's the most senior international court there is, and so 46 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: when it issues decisions like this, those decisions apply to 47 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: all states in the world. So it's a hugely significant 48 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: court and hugely significant decision. It's connected with the United 49 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: Nations and it essentially opines on matters of international law 50 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: regulating conduct between states. So what are state's obligations under 51 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: international law? You know, where there are disputes between individual states, 52 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 3: it can be asked to rule on a particular issue, 53 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: to give an advisory opinion on a particular issue, and 54 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: in this case, the advisory opinion the decision on States 55 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 3: obligations on climate change. It was asked by a resolution 56 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: of the UN General Assembly to give this advisory opinion, 57 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: essentially saying what are the obligations of states under international 58 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: law to take action on climate change? 59 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: And you described on LinkedIn that this advisory opinion is 60 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: a once in a generation legal decision that is going 61 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: to shape climate litigation for decades to come. So let's 62 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: just start with the basics. Where and when did this 63 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: case begin? 64 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: So this is the most extraordinary initiative that started in 65 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: a student classroom in Fiji and was driven by the 66 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 3: Pacific Island students fighting climate change. Now, as you and 67 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: your listeners know, the Pacific Island countries, like lots of 68 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 3: other small island states, are hugely vulnerable to climate change. 69 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: They bear almost none of the responsibility for it, but 70 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 3: they're on the front line of the impacts, whether that's 71 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: sea level rise or other impacts. And so the Pacific 72 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 3: Island students decided they wanted to ask the International Court 73 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: of Justice, the highest court in the world, for a 74 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: you on what the state's obligations to tackle climate change. 75 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: Now that was then picked up and championed by Vanuatu 76 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 3: in the first place, and then a number of other states, 77 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: which then led to the UN General Assembly passing a 78 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: resolution asking the ICJ to consider this question. 79 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: Student projects are really fun, very important, but a student 80 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: project that then goes all the way to the highest 81 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: court in the world, yeah, is kind of unheard of. 82 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: Like what was needed to actually take what was the 83 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: student project to that level? 84 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: It's extraordinary. I mean, firstly to the leadership, the moral 85 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 3: authority of these students, you know, who are I suppose 86 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: reflect various elements of climate justice, right first that they're 87 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: from very climate vulnerable countries. Secondly that they are the 88 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: younger generation. And one of the questions that they wanted 89 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 3: the ICJ to consider is what are the obligations on 90 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 3: states for future generations? And so you have young people 91 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: from climate vulnerable countries driving this, but it developed this 92 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 3: massive movement, a massive momentum of states getting involved and 93 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 3: supporting civil society getting involved in an enormous way. Clan 94 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 3: Earth played a very small part in that, but there 95 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: were so many others really giving that a sort of 96 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 3: a momentum. And I think where we are now is 97 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: a decision that is the most significant development in international 98 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: climate law since the Paris Agreement. And it's an extraordinary 99 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: victory for these Pacific Island students and for climate vulnerable 100 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: communities everywhere. 101 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: And so Januar two takes this request to the United 102 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Nations and the General Assembly say is, yes, we would 103 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: like to know what is the legal obligation of states 104 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: on climate action? And the ICG holds a hearing and 105 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: we understand it's the largest hearing that the ICGA has held. 106 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: More than a high hundred countries made legal arguments, some 107 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: of them against it, and we'll come to that. And 108 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: so now we have this legal advisory. What does the 109 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: legal advisory say, what is the verdict? 110 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: Well, let me I mean if I can just pause 111 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 3: a moment on your point around the number of submissions, 112 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: because the Court itself said in its press statement in summary, 113 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: this was unprecedented in terms of the global engagement. There 114 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: were more than one hundred submissions. But there were also 115 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 3: other interventions because sort of civil society organizations like Clan 116 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: Earth can't submit in the normal process, and so others 117 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: intervened with their own legal opinions, advocacy and so on. 118 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: And I think the other interesting thing to say about 119 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: the process was the decision was adopted unanimously by the 120 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: Court by all the judges. There was no dissent, and 121 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: it was I think far more forward leaning than most 122 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: people expected. In a nutshell, what does the decision say. 123 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: It says that states have binding obligations under international law 124 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 3: to prevent significant environmental harm, to cooperate internationally, and uphold 125 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: fundamental rights in the face of escalating climate risks. Now, 126 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 3: there's a lot to unpack there, but I think one 127 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: of the really important things is it's very clear that 128 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 3: climate action is not a matter of aspiration or discretion, 129 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: but it's a matter of due diligence. There's an obligation 130 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: on states, and that's really important. 131 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: And so we can understand when it's an obligation to 132 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: a state, what are other obligations of states that we 133 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: know already exist in national law and international law, and 134 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: how does this verdict add to their responsibilities. 135 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 3: So there are obligations under international law and relation to sovereignty. 136 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 3: For example, upholding sovereignty is a very good example that 137 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: a country's borders and its territory are sovereign. So that's 138 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: a very good example. One that this builds on. A 139 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 3: principle of a customary international law is about trans boundary harm, 140 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 3: this sense that a state must not do something that 141 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: harms another state. That sense that you're drawing on. The 142 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: court looked at all ther relevant international law, not just 143 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: the Paris Agreement, but the UN Convention on the Law 144 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: of the Sea, the Conventional and Biological Diversity or the 145 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 3: Kyoto Protocol, all this different law that there is out 146 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 3: there as well as customary international law, and reach this 147 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 3: decision that really sets out what states have to do 148 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 3: and then interestingly, the unpack what that obligation means, including 149 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 3: in relation to the private sector. 150 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: And so the Advisory Opinions states that, you know, states 151 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: must pursue the highest possible ambition, which under the Paris 152 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: Agreement is to limit warming to one point five degree celsius. 153 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: It also states that granting for self fuel licenses or 154 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: subsidies may constitute an internationally wrongful act, and that countries 155 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: could be required to compensate or remedy the damage caused 156 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: by their emissions anywhere in the world where the damage 157 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: might occur. These are things that on this podcast we've 158 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: talked for a long time because the Paris Agreement speaks 159 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: to many of those points. The Loss and Damage Fund 160 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: that was created speaks to the point of needing compensation 161 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: for these But how exactly does this opinion go beyond 162 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement, because it's not just taking the Paris Agreement 163 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: and the language underneath it, but also other international laws 164 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: and consideration. 165 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you have here is an incredibly holistic, 166 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: an authoritative statement and articulation of international law and how 167 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: it applies to states' obligations is then authoritative and will 168 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 3: be sort of fronts of mind for any national level litigation, 169 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: for example, it sets out very clearly and again I 170 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 3: come back to this point around and NDC is not aspirational. 171 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: It is it is an obligation. And as you said, 172 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: it was really you know what's really interesting, and I 173 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: think you came to that point around it's not just 174 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 3: about you know, setting out NDC's nationally determined contributions and plans. 175 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: It's also about looking at what's happening within a state's territory. 176 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 3: So stopping fossil fuel production, the granting of fossil fuel 177 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: exploration licenses, the provision of fossil fuel subsidies, all of 178 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: those could constitute an internationally wrongful act. So it's hugely interesting, 179 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: I think in terms of the question about what could 180 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: this look like in terms of reparations or further litigation 181 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: at the international level, I think, you know, we, along 182 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: with the rest of the international legal environmental community, is 183 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: still diving into the implications and really understanding them. But 184 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 3: there is of course precedent for cases before the ICJ 185 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: on trans boundary harm, and so you could well see 186 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: more like that. I mean, I don't want to go 187 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 3: too far in terms of you know, setting out how 188 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: it will work. But as a ruling it gives a 189 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: real shot in the arm to climate vulnerable communities looking 190 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: for justice for climate litigation generally. But it's also a 191 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: really really important advocacy tool in terms of, you know, 192 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: pushing states to increase their ambition, increase their action in 193 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: what is the critical decade. 194 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: One thing that stood out for me which I did 195 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: not see coming, was that this advisory opinion says that 196 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: countries that may be affected by climate change, especially climate 197 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: vulnerable small island countries that may lose their territories altogether 198 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: as a result of rising sea levels will be able 199 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: to retain their statehood even after the lands are sunk. 200 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: Now you have represented the UK for these small island nations. 201 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: What does life like on those islands and why does 202 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: keeping statehood matter so much? 203 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a hugely important element of the of 204 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 3: the decision, which perhaps has not been had as much 205 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: pick up so far. But yes, when I when I 206 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: lived in in New Zealand, as High Commisions to New 207 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: Zealand and the High Commission at Asamoa, I spent a 208 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: lot of time in the South Pacific. You know, it's 209 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 3: really clear climate change is an existential threat to these communities. 210 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: It's a day to day lived reality, and that's about 211 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: both their way of life but also the existential threat 212 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: to their territories and therefore their sovereignty and their statehood, 213 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 3: you know, And the ICJ was very clear about that. 214 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 3: It said that I under the UN Convention on the 215 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: Law of the Sea, if sea level rise affects the 216 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: sort of outline of your state, if you like, that 217 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you then have to revise your maritime boundaries. 218 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 3: Your statehood is your statehood, even if your territory change 219 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: just shape as a result of climate change. So that's 220 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: really important in terms of international law because as you 221 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 3: can imagine, this is an area where geopolitics and climate 222 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 3: change interact very very strongly. 223 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: It empowers these countries to keep fighting even if it 224 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: gets to the level where they may lose their land. 225 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, we are seeing some of these islands already 226 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: starting to act. So Australia now has a climate visa 227 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: that people from Tuvalu can apply to, and Australia says 228 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: they can eventually give enough of them for all of 229 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: the people living on those islands to move to Australia 230 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: if they so choose or they are forced to. But 231 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: going back to the point of the implication here, because 232 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: as much as this is a big legal event, it 233 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: is an advisory opinion. Yes, it comes from the world's 234 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: highest court. But when you say that it's a once 235 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: in a generation legal decision, what do you think changes 236 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: as a result of this. 237 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: So I think it's it's a very very clear you know, 238 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: you're right, there is no enforcement mechanism, right, there's no one, 239 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: No one's going to come along, you know, following this 240 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 3: advisory opinion from the you know, ICJ and sanctioned states 241 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: for not doing the right thing. That's that's clear. There 242 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 3: is no enforcement mechanism, but it is extraordinarily authoritative articulation 243 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: of legal obligations of states under international law. And I 244 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: think the opportunity now is using it as an advocacy tool. Firstly, 245 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: so in the run up to COP thirty and Belem, 246 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 3: we've got lots of countries still haven't produced their nationally 247 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: determined contributions, others you know, not doing enough, so it 248 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: will really push states to do more. It will help 249 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: guide national courts. That's hugely significant because we are going 250 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: to see even more climate litigation as you know, has 251 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: been increasing exponentially over the past couple of decades. It 252 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 3: will increase even further. And every time a national court 253 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: here's a court case, it will have the ICJ decision 254 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 3: in front of mind in hearing that case. And so 255 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 3: I suppose, you know, really it's a very clear message 256 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: to states everywhere the action can't be deferred and legal 257 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: systems have to reckon with climate duties. So international law 258 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: has to be interpreted in the current context of the 259 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 3: climate crisis. 260 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Laura Clark, CEO of Client 261 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: Earth after the shortbreak. Also, we're still looking to get 262 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: a few more questions from listeners for an episode we 263 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: are making this summer. Do you have a burning question 264 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: about climate, green tech, or the future of the planet, 265 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: Please send it to us in writing or as a 266 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: voice memo to zero Pod at Bloomberg dot net by Monday, 267 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: August fourth. Thank you to everyone who's sent there so far. 268 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: During the hearing, we did hear from countries opposing the 269 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: view that states will be bound by climate action. We 270 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: heard from Australia, from Saudi Arabia, from the United States, 271 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: from China arguing that their obligations limited to the Paris Agreement, 272 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: but they've lost. What was it that they were arguing 273 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: for and why did they not succeed? 274 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot to that question, but it 275 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: really comes to this point around discretion versus due diligence, 276 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 3: and so this idea that actually, you know that what 277 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 3: you say you're going to do under an NDC as 278 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: aspirational is that your discretion rather than being something that 279 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 3: you absolutely have to do and you have to compel 280 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 3: private actors to align and so on, which is where 281 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: the court came out. So, you know, so I think 282 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: that's an important distinction. I think, you know, one thing 283 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: I would say is, you know, this is not a 284 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: new law or anything like that. This is just a 285 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: confirmation or an explanation of existing law. So you know, obviously, 286 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: then each each state will sort of take its own 287 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: view on what it wants to do as a result 288 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 3: of it, and it won't be we won't be surprised 289 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 3: that some states won't do anything different. 290 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: As a consequence, there are some sixty countries that have 291 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 1: national climate laws right now, which means the majority of 292 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: the world does not have national climate laws. Even when 293 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: a country does have a national climate law to actually 294 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: make the country do what the climate law says it 295 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: should do is hard. Client Earth has fort this case 296 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: in the UK, which was among the first countries to 297 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: get a climate law, to actually get the country to 298 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: deliver on those promises. And I know that you're waiting 299 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: on this labor government to actually put out their steps 300 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: to meet the obligations that they have. So how does 301 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: it affect countries that do not have national climate laws 302 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: in the first place, and how would enforcement work for them? 303 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: A couple of things to unpack their I suppose I 304 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: think it adds to the imperative to have national climate laws. 305 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 3: And at Client Earth we have been pushing and advocating 306 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: and supporting for a while for climate laws as the 307 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 3: kind of missing link between international commitment and real world 308 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 3: domestic action and delivery. And so we've supported a number 309 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: of countries their climate laws. But how you know, you're saying, 310 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: how would if you have litigation in a country that 311 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 3: doesn't have a climate law, how does this decision help? Well, 312 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: it absolutely helps, because there are any number of ways 313 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 3: in which cases can be brought, and one of the 314 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 3: ways that's very very clear is when communities bring cases 315 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: related to human rights and climate change, where they say, 316 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: my government is not doing enough to protect my human 317 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 3: rights from the impacts of climate change. And if I 318 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: give you an example of a case we supported in Australia, 319 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 3: the indigenous Torres Strait Islanders, who we supported to take 320 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: a case to the UN Human Rights Committee essentially saying 321 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: that Australia's inaction on climate change was a violation of 322 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 3: their human rights, violation of their right to indigenous right 323 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: to culture, and the UN Human Rights Committee agreed with 324 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: us and ordered the Australian government to do more and 325 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 3: to pay compensation. We've also had the European Court of 326 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: Human Rights issue it's binding judgment on Switzerland in the 327 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: case of the Kimas senior in and so the sweet 328 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 3: senior Swiss women who said that by virtue of their 329 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: age and gender, they are much more vulnerable to climate impacts, 330 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 3: to extreme heat, for example, and the government wasn't the 331 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 3: Swiss government was not doing enough to protect their rights. 332 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 3: So that's just one avenue whereby these climate cases can 333 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 3: be brought regardless of whether there's national climate legislation in place. 334 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 3: And as these cases are brought, the plaintiffs will have 335 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: in mind this decision from the ICJ, which is also 336 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 3: really clear on the human rights where it says a 337 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: healthy environment is the foundation for human life and human rights, 338 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 3: and you know, and that's a really sort of remarkable statement. 339 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 3: It says a clean, healthy and sustainable environment is a 340 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: precondition for the enjoyment of human rights, and the rights 341 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 3: were an environment. So it helps to such an environment 342 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: results from the interdependence between human rights and the protection 343 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 3: of the environment. So that's really, really, really important because 344 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 3: most states are very clear on their obligations to their 345 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 3: citizens from a human rights perspective, and so it's taking 346 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: that across. 347 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: It's interesting to have these legal judgments. The Swiss women 348 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: case is very interesting. You had the Human Rights Court 349 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: say that yes, you're right, Switzerland needs to do more 350 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: on climate and yet the Switzerland government rejected it and 351 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: did not change anything as a result. Now, if we 352 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: even go and focus on the ICG itself, it released 353 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: an advisory opinion in July twenty twenty four stating that 354 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories is unlawful and that 355 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: Israel should put an end to this occupation. The UN 356 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: General Assembly adopted a non binding resolution to enforce that 357 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: advisory opinion. But of course here we are nothing has 358 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: changed as Weel's attack on Kaza continues. So why should 359 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: we take this ICGA advisory opinion seriously because things don't 360 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: change that often. 361 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 3: I suppose this goes to the point of how hard 362 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 3: it is to affect change generally, right. You know, it's 363 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 3: sort of quite a philosophical question, isn't it. And you know, 364 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 3: how do you affect change? Where does power actually lie? 365 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 3: How do you change terrible things that are happening stop 366 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 3: terrible things that are happening? There is no silver bullet. 367 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 3: You can have the most perfect ruling, but ultimately you 368 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 3: need the state to take action. And I suppose my 369 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: answer then is that these legal avenues, your litigation, your 370 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 3: advisory opinions or decisions, even getting the right laws in place, 371 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: are only part of the picture because you need political 372 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 3: will and action. You need societal mobilization, you need behavioral change, 373 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 3: you need businesses pulling in the right direction, and so on. 374 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 3: You're absolutely right that when this decision, this decision is 375 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 3: now out there, that doesn't mean that states everywhere next 376 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 3: week are suddenly going to transform their work, but it 377 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: will definitely push in that direction, and it equips those 378 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: that want to see more action, advocacy groups, lawyers, climate 379 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: vulnerable communities. It equips them with another tool to push 380 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: for that sort of action. 381 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: Much of the work that land Earth has done has 382 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: also focused on companies. You as a shareholder sued a 383 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: Polish goal company from building a call power plant and 384 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: you succeeded. How does this opinion, which is very much 385 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: focused on international law on countries, affect corporations, which are 386 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: the places where most of the emissions are generated. 387 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 3: It's a great question. And of course the ICJ is 388 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 3: about state responsibilities and state obligations, so it can't directly 389 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: hold companies or businesses to account. But what it did say, 390 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 3: and I talked earlier about this question of states having 391 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: a due diligence requirement take action, that states have an 392 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: obligation to regulate private actors. You know, if a private 393 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: company is producing huge amounts of emissions, then the state 394 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 3: has a responsibility to regulate them and stop that harm. 395 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: So I think that's a really important development. So if 396 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: for example, you have a fossil fuel company that's polluting 397 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 3: with abandon, the country has to underwe international law regulate 398 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 3: them and stop that. It's again, it's just another tool 399 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 3: I suppose to drive corporates to do the right thing. 400 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: So you're not a lawyer. I am not a lawyer, 401 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: but I am married to one and you work. 402 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 3: With so am I I'm married to one and I 403 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 3: work with them. I'm surrounded there you go. 404 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the things that people tend to 405 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: think of lawyers, and I think we should do some 406 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: mythbusting here is that they are not creative people. But 407 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: actually they are. And if anything, climate litigation is proof 408 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: of what being creative with the law can enable. Because 409 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: the number of climate lawsuits have been growing and the 410 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: impact from them is starting to add up. How exactly 411 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: do you think Client Earth's work changes as a result 412 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: of the ICGO opinion. 413 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, let me just pause on your point about creativity, 414 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 3: because you're absolutely right, and that's what's one of the 415 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: most exciting things about Client Earth and other organizations like this. 416 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 3: You've got these brilliant, committed, clever people who are using 417 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: the law creatively to affect change. And I think sometimes, 418 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: you know, often the law is seen as a tool 419 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 3: to defend the bested interests of the status quo, right, 420 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 3: but actually it can be used in the right way 421 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: for radically progressive means, and that's hugely exciting. So you know, 422 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: at Clan Earth we've long taken law at corporate and 423 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: financial law, human rights law, you know, others, and say 424 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 3: how can we use that for better environmental outcomes? So 425 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 3: that's hugely exciting and I think that's often why we 426 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: get such great support from the music and culture industries, 427 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 3: because they're attracted to that creativity. How does it change 428 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 3: our work as Clan Earth, Well, we're obviously deep into 429 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: the implications for our work. It really provides an even 430 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 3: stronger framework for the work that we're doing, the national 431 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 3: level litigation against states, the litigation against corporates, but also 432 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 3: importantly the positive propositional work that we do when we 433 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: support countries in getting the right national climate laws in 434 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: place or the right regulations in place. And that's something 435 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 3: that you know, I think often we're not known for. 436 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: We're known for our sort of big bang cases when 437 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: we sue people, but we do a huge amount, often 438 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 3: below the radar, of supporting governments and authorities and getting 439 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 3: the right regulatory framework in place for the renewable energy transition. 440 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: For example, getting the right climate laws in place, and 441 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 3: we're also training prosecutors, judges, working with community groups. And 442 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: I suppose this decision it strengthens the if you like, 443 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: it's amade, the roof over all that work much stronger, 444 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 3: I suppose is the way I'm thinking of it. You know, 445 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 3: we're sort of building up, but the roof is stronger, 446 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 3: or the foundations are stronger. I'm mixing my metaphors, but 447 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: it is. It's hugely authoritative as a statement of international law, 448 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: and I'm hopeful and optimistic that as a constucequents of it, 449 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 3: it will both push states to do more, but it 450 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: will also strengthen climate litigation. 451 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: But we're also living through a time where, perhaps since 452 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, the skepticism of the international order is 453 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: at the highest level. You have the US government pulling 454 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: out of many international treaties. The Paris Agreement is just 455 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: one of them. In such a time where countries seem 456 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: to be pulling away, and it's not just the US, 457 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: other countries want to be going in that direction too. 458 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: How do you think the ICGO opinion actually gives more 459 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: weight to international law? 460 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. We're living in a 461 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 3: time of extraordinary tensions in the international order, and the 462 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: US is you know, there is a lot of US unilateralism. 463 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 3: That doesn't mean you know, that's a real blow to multilateralism, 464 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean the end of it. And I 465 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: was at the UN Ocean's Conference in June and that really, 466 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 3: you know, looked like multilateralism. Absolutely there focus on what 467 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 3: is needed to protect our ocean. But all of this 468 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 3: stuff is contested and it's difficult and one of the 469 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 3: ways that you protect international law is you use it, 470 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: you exercise that, you get people involved and engaged, because 471 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 3: the really important thing about any sort of climate action 472 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 3: is not letting it look like it's the preserve of 473 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: the elite. It's you know, the government bureaucrats, or it's 474 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: you know, civil society organizations. It is you know, reflective 475 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 3: of grassroots mobilization. And I think that's really important and 476 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: the significance of this. It's significant in terms of that 477 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 3: statement of international law in relation to climate change, but 478 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: it's significant because it comes from such a broad mobilization 479 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 3: of young people, of civil society of states globally, and 480 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: that is an articulation then of how many people want 481 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 3: climate action. They want to see changes and that should 482 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 3: bring pressure on states, on businesses, on those who are 483 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 3: in positions of power and make decisions to make decisions 484 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 3: that trends towards a safe and stable climate. 485 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 486 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, as somebody who thinks about climate change all 487 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: the time, and you do too. We just have to 488 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: live in this world where there are two seemingly opposite 489 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: facts that are both true. You know, China is the 490 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: world's largest emitter, but it's also the world's green tech superpower. 491 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: That you know, multilateralism is creaking, and yet you had 492 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: the European Union and China, the second and the third 493 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: largest emitters, put out a statement saying they're going to 494 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: try and make COP thirty a success by submitting new 495 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: climate goals. 496 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 3: You have to be able to hold multiple truths in 497 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 3: your hands at the same time. I think that's really 498 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: then you have to be able to sit with that complexity. 499 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: But you know, you're absolutely right. The international order as 500 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: we know it is both under unprecedented pressure and more 501 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 3: important than it has ever been in terms of tackling 502 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 3: these threats to our global commons. Thank you, Laura, thank you, 503 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: it's been a pleasure. 504 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to zero and now for 505 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: the sound of the week. That is the sound of 506 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: a gas boiler being removed from a home. In the 507 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: first half of this year, sales of heat pumps in 508 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: Germany surpassed gas boilers for the first time, as the 509 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: country moves towards cleaner forms of home heating. Read more 510 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: about it on Bloomberg dot com. If you like this episode, 511 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 512 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 513 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: friend or with a creative lawyer. This episode was produced 514 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: by Oscar boyd Art. The music is composed by Wonderly 515 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Eleanor Harrison Tengate. Soamersadi, Moses Aim and 516 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: Shawan Wagner I am Akshatrati back soon.