1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: name is not They call me Ben. We are joined 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: with our super producer, Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you, 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: and you are here, and that makes this stuff they 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: don't want you to know a very special episode of 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: our show today, because we are delving into something that 10 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: has always fascinated us. I think as individuals and as 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: a group, and that is the strange intersection of ethics 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: and experimentation science right science versus UH, the humanity of 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: both the UH, the experiment ers and the experimentees. But 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: we are not alone in this endeavor. Today we are 15 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: joined with a friend of the show, a filmmaker Brett Wood, 16 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: who just recently created How Stuff Works first fiction podcast, 17 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: the Control Group. Brett, thank you so much for coming 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: on the show with us today. Brett, what is excited 19 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: to be here and you are well. We haven't fully confirmed. 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: I haven't seen any identification. Did you guys get IDENTIFICA? 21 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: I got it at the front desk, then we have 22 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: a new policy. Okay, he's cool. He looks a lot 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: like Brett would he at least signed his name. Brett 24 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: would when he got in here, which is about the 25 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: level of our security. Wow, man, you're really throwing our 26 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: security team under the bus. Back so Brett. We were. 27 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: We were extremely excited about the Control Group as we 28 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:00,919 Speaker 1: were learning more about the show and more about the 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: real life things, events, people in places that inspired the 30 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: narrative of the Control Group. And from what we understand, 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: this originally was a screenplay, is that correct? Right about 32 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: six years ago? I wanted to make it as a 33 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: film and quickly realized that it was sort of beyond 34 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: my means as an independent filmmaker to have, you know, 35 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: this large hospital facility and a fair number of of 36 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: extras as patients in the hospital. And also, as we 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: may get into a little bit later on, I ran 38 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: into some problems with the locations where I wanted to 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: shoot um, so I then moved over to a different 40 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: project which is mostly set in a house, which was 41 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: much more manageable for me. Is that one called Those 42 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: who Deserve to Die that's coming up next. That one 43 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: I've just finished and have not yet shown anywhere where 44 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: we're just finishing up the sound and music. The Unwanted 45 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: is the one we did instead of the Control Group, right, 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: And for anyone unfamiliar with the work, you are quite 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: a prolific creator. Made the Unwanted in Psychopathia Sexualist in 48 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: two thousand six, a documentary that we leaned on pretty 49 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: heavily in another show called car Stuff. It's called Hell's 50 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: Highway The True Story of Highway Safety Films in two 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: thousand three, which I cannot recommend enough if you want 52 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: something with a disturbing twist, those are upsetting. Oh yes, 53 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: I remember the carst Of episode that was back in 54 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: my heyday as superproducer Noel Brown. That's true, that's true. 55 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: We go we all go way back in this regard. 56 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: And so I like, I like where your work has 57 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: taken you thus far and kind of where it's headed. 58 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: Can you tell us, like exactly what the Control Group is, 59 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: what it's about? Sure, it's a sort of a narrativization 60 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: of uh A couple of different threads that were going 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: on in sort of psychological medicine and covert government activities 62 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties. One of which is 63 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: the government's drug testing programs better known as MK Ultra 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: of course, Artichoke, Bluebird. There were lots of names for 65 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: what they were doing, which is basically secretly testing drugs 66 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: on people, preferably unsuspecting people, and trying to determine if 67 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: these could be useful tools for either mind control or interrogation. 68 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: And then the other threat of it is the u 69 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: c I a sponsorship of experimental psychological testing, uh, you know, 70 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: without any apparent connection to the you know, covert interrogation 71 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: arm of what they were doing. So they would just 72 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: they just set up a front organization to fund colleges, hospitals, 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: doctors to just do experiments that might kind of fit 74 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: in with the kind of stuff they're interested in, namely 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: things like erasing someone's memory, getting them to unlock the 76 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: secrets which they may be protecting. Um, you can sort 77 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: of see anything that might be applicable. They were kind 78 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: of open to and a lot of the doctors who 79 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: did the research didn't know they were sort of doing 80 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: it under the sponsorship of the CIA, And they say, 81 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: I called it a cutout, which I love that instead 82 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: of up front we have we have several cutouts that 83 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: we can hide this behind, and we're gonna hide this 84 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: behind the cutout known as the Society for the Investigation 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: of Human Ecology. It's just like such an important sounding 86 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: like who doesn't believe in that human ecology? That's what 87 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: they called it. And well, I guess that we can 88 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: announce here for the first time that pretty soon we 89 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: are going to make available Society for the Investigation of 90 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: Human Ecology t shirts at our Control Group merchandise shops, 91 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: So just stand by for more details on at But um, 92 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: I just love the idea of this, of this UH 93 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization handing out money to UH ambitious researchers. And 94 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: there's a bit of an ego feed to right. It's like, 95 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: we believe in your work. Sounds kind of like Illumination 96 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Global Unlimited. And it's funny. This is why I feel 97 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: so at home here, you know, within the house stuff works. 98 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: Family is because like with the Driver's documentary, and I 99 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: know that MK Ultra has been a subject on stuff 100 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know and other shows because 101 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, your audience sort of relishes the secret histories 102 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: of not always the underbelly of what's going on in 103 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: our society. And government. But just like being in the 104 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: know of the things that were not in your high 105 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: school textbook, well said, So, let's dive into your research 106 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: process as you were gathering material and documentation for the 107 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: script itself and for the story. What what kind of 108 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: stuff did you find? Where did you look? Um? Mostly? Well, 109 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: the interesting is there's not much first generation information about 110 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: this stuff. Um. The whole thing would have been secret 111 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: and forgotten were it not for the survival of I 112 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: think seven boxes of financial records, receipts, and it was 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: from those documents that people were able to piece together 114 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: this history. Um. But there are a number of great 115 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: books on the subject. As far as the CIA testing, 116 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: there is UM the Search for the Manchurian Candidate by 117 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: John Marks and UM. As far as the medical research, 118 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: there's one person in particular who I was, who is 119 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: kind of the unofficial inspiration for our main doctor in 120 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: the control group, and the real life doctor's name is 121 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: you and Cameron, and he was a doctor in Quebec. 122 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: He was the head of the American Psychiatric Association. You know, 123 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: you couldn't be more highly regarded. But yet he was 124 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: conducting these today we might consider ethically questionable experiments in 125 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: manipulation of the mind, which I can't wait for us 126 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: to start talking about the details of those. But you know, 127 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: the thing is, when you read about all this stuff, 128 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem possible. It's it's outrageous, it's fascinating, 129 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: but you can't really imagine it actually happening. And so 130 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do with the control group is 131 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: sort of imagine what would it be like to actually 132 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: be subjected to UM something we call psychic driving, which 133 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: is where Dr Cameron would UM. He would often record 134 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: it himself. He would a tape which would play in 135 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: a constant loop. You are not being kind to others. 136 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: You need to open up and be more open with 137 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: your emotions. You need to you know, and just sort 138 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: of a mantra or a reinforcement of the kind of 139 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: behavior the person should have. And so that tape would 140 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: play constantly, constantly, constantly in days at a time, for 141 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: days at a time, and UH in headphones, and sometimes 142 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: they would have like a helmet where it's wired so 143 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: a person could get up and walk around. And they 144 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: even had UM speakers built into mattresses so that when 145 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: someone is asleep, you will be kind to others you 146 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: will be more responsive to treatment. Um, that's psychic driving. Okay, 147 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: so that psychic driving. Was it done on patients in 148 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: like a psychiatric word or where Who was this done to? Yeah, 149 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: and it wasn't. That's the thing it was done to 150 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: just like regular people. UM. There was a tendency to 151 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: do a lot of this more on women, and we 152 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: of course addressed that. That's a big part of what 153 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: the control group is. UM. Some of that, I think 154 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: is the ego of the doctor who if he's gonna 155 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: shape and sculpt a patient Pygmalion style, he tends to 156 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: want to do that more with a woman than a man. 157 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: But I think also it feeds a lot into the 158 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: fact that, UM, psychological issues are have traditionally sort of 159 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: been tilted towards women. Like the best examples hysteria, that 160 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: is something that, if you take it by its original 161 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: technical definition, has to do, you know, with the reproductive 162 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: organs of a woman. That was the source from which 163 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: the psychological problem emanated. Or we think a lot about 164 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: housewives in the fifties being prescribed tranquilizers and for the 165 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: men they would just you know, have an extra martini 166 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: at lunch that was their way of dealing with it. 167 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: So there has often been this focus on psychological problems 168 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: on women and and so that sort of became an 169 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: important part of the control group as well as an 170 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: avenue of control. I think given the misogyny that was 171 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: institutionalized and still exists today, it seems like in many cases, 172 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: with the benefit of true respect, we're able as a 173 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: society to look back and say, well, that person wasn't 174 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: mentally ill. They just didn't want to be forced to 175 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: marry that jerk, you know. And this I think that's 176 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: I think that's a powerful thing. But the the idea 177 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: of psychic driving too, I don't want us to lose that. 178 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: At first, when you first hear it, it's easy to think, well, 179 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: I'm I'm familiar with that. I've had a song stuck 180 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: in my head before. How bad can it be? You know, 181 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: it can't be any worse than despicito or something. But uh, 182 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: there there are some other techniques that Dr Cameron was using. 183 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about those, maybe 184 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: starting with the sleep treatments, So as part of the 185 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: psychic driving um, you would need to have your mind 186 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: sort of neutralized before the fresh messages, these reinforcements are 187 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: being allowed in your mind. They need to wipe the 188 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 1: slate clean, and so they did that a couple of 189 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: different ways, UM. But the cleaning process was called patterning, 190 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: and that means fix the mind so it no longer 191 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: has a regular pattern of thought. It's open and neutral. 192 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: And even people you know had memory loss, long term 193 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: memory loss, they could remember what was happening to them now, 194 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: but couldn't think back into their past. That was the 195 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: whole point. Wipe this late clean so that we can 196 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: replace it with the fresh messages, with the psychic driving. 197 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: So the one way they would do that is uh 198 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: e c T. Electro convulsive therapy better known today as 199 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: shock treatment. UM doubled up with sleep therapy, where they 200 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: would tranquilize someone and have them sleep around the clock. 201 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: And you know, sleep is great, and to a certain degree, 202 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: shock therapy even now is considered of of use when 203 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: correctly applied. But what they would do is give people 204 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: shock treatment multiple times in a single day, and according 205 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: to one source, six times the voltage or dosage at 206 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: which it is normally given. So it wasn't just like 207 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, you're your need mental tune up It was 208 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: an attempt to really um flatten the brain waves of 209 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: the mind by excessively delivering shock treatment and then rest 210 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: so that the body and the mind would just shut 211 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: down and you get woken up, fed more E C 212 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: T and which puts you right back to sleep, and 213 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: then they would continue the drip or the pills. I 214 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: think someone was telling me that phena barbital is more 215 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: commonly given as pills, So that was I guess how 216 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: they would keep you in that deep sleep? Wow? And 217 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: how how effective was this at least the deep patterning 218 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: aspect um you know there, like I said, people did. 219 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: After this all came out, a number of patients got 220 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: together and sued you and Cameron, claiming that they had 221 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: erased their memories and you know, cross these ethical barriers. 222 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: So it certainly didn't seem to have the curative effect 223 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: that he was proclaiming it was going to have. Uh, 224 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: it didn't completely mess up people's minds the way say, uh, 225 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, transorbital lobotomy might. So the effect it was 226 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: never proven to be especially effective either as a um 227 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: sort of a treatment for you know, general psychological difficulties, 228 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: and it certainly was never applied to the kind of 229 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: use that the CIA thought it might be viable for. 230 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: So we'll never know if it was an effective way 231 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: of interrogating or brainwashing someone. And it doesn't seem to 232 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: have been an especially effective way of curing someone's mental ills. 233 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: And we'll learn more about that right after a quick 234 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. But you know, there is one 235 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: thing that perhaps didn't exactly come out of this, but 236 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: was utilized within the mk Ultra trials and specifically within 237 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: the world of the control group, which is confinement the uh. 238 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to give it away too much, but 239 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: the cages um, because that's something that we do see 240 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,479 Speaker 1: used in what we would I guess consider modern interrogation 241 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: techniques isolating someone uh not not allowing them to sleep 242 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: for long periods of time um. And we see some 243 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: of that in this story as well. Yeah, and the 244 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: when we talk about the cages in the in the podcast, 245 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a fictionalization just in terms 246 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: of that, it's that it's true to the spirit of 247 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: what was going on. I mean, we had a lot 248 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: of sensory deprivation where someone be kept in the dark 249 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: with something over their eyes and something over their ears, 250 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: so they can't hear, and sometimes with their hands inserted 251 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: into something so they can't feel. As it's sort of 252 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: like a version of the sleep therapies. So just just 253 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: see how long a person could exist in that state 254 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: before their mind gets weakened and becomes open to you know, 255 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: better programming. I guess um. And in the podcast, the 256 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: characters talk about how, uh you know, back in the 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: day when the section this ward was called the cages, 258 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: people would just be left to wander and sit in 259 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: their own filth. I mean, that's very well documented from 260 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: like back in the nineties and forties, where do you 261 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: would have wards of people naked, sitting in their own 262 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: filth and just being given no treatment per se um 263 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: a condition that existed I think, you know, there was 264 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: a lot of uh, mental hospital reform in the nineteen fifties, 265 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: so it was mostly cleaned up at that time. But um, 266 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, so you have this this dichotomy between like 267 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: excessive treatment and then no treatment where it's just a 268 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: matter of pump some drugs and someone neutralized the symptoms. 269 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: And ultimately that's what all this kind of was about. 270 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: And if we talk a lot about some of the 271 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: other medical visionaries who have done some pretty crazy things 272 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: over history. Usually the justification for what they did was 273 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: that it eliminated the symptoms, but it didn't actually cure 274 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: the disease. Um and my favorite, and I've thought about 275 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: trying to dramatize this guy's work somehow. Um, it was 276 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: a guy named Henry Cotton, and in the nineteen twenties 277 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: he had a big theory that mental illness and health 278 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: problems was were triggered by different kinds of infection and uh, 279 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: it's like bacterial infection. Yeah, and uh, chronic dental infection 280 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: was one of the big ones because you know, they 281 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: didn't have great gental care back in the nineteen twenties, 282 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: no fluoridation of water. And so he would pull teeth 283 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: and remove tonsils. And he had two sons and completely 284 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,239 Speaker 1: pulled all their teeth, adult teeth and gave people ton 285 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: selectomies the colon, you know, lots of bacteria and the colon. 286 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: He would remove people's colons, He would remove portions of 287 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: their stomach, he would remove the spleens. So it was 288 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: just all about taking out anything that was a possible 289 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: source of infection. And you would be amazed at how 290 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, high highly regarded this guy was, and how 291 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: high up the professional ladder he was able to climb. 292 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: He became the superintendent of the Trenton State Hospital in 293 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: New Jersey. In New Jersey, and uh, you know, eventually 294 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: people kind of realized, ah ha, will his numbers look 295 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: good on paper. But all he's doing is removing a call, 296 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: you know, a potential cause. He's getting rid of symptoms, 297 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: but he's not actually treating the illness. And usually in 298 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: cases like that, what happens is, we don't do that anymore, 299 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: and we don't talk about that anymore. And so like 300 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: lobotomies are another great example. The botomies were considered so 301 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: effective because they wiped out the symptoms. To say, they 302 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: don't do the bad stuff anymore. Yeah, and so diff 303 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: rid of their part of their brain that makes them 304 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: act like a human. And part of it is the 305 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: fact that you've you've physically changed them to not be 306 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: able to do that anymore. And in the case of 307 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: something like shocked therapy, they change their behavior because they 308 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: don't want more shocked therapy. Of course you're still not 309 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: treating the cause, but you're causing the symptom to go 310 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: away either medically or through the fear instilled in them 311 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: by well, it's like that idea that torture isn't particularly 312 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: effective and getting good confession. It's just effective at getting 313 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: what you want to hear, or you'll get some kind 314 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: of confession, some amazing stories. And if you torture someone enough, 315 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: don't tell you everything anything. This you're talking about it 316 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: reminds me of like sort of like a sick twisted 317 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: John Harvey Kellogg type almost where he's like into all 318 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: this like holistic stuff, but he's treating the symptoms more 319 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: than he is the actual illness. You know, enemas for everything, 320 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: like yogurt enemas and all this stuff. Kellogg's a great 321 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: guy because he's like the lighter side the same kind 322 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: of visionary and it's all about a good a good cold, right, 323 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: and we can kind of have fun with him. But 324 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: then when you get into someone who has a little 325 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: more barbaric in their treatments. But you know, but it's 326 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: the same, it's two sides of the same coin. This 327 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: sort of visionary uh medicine that is not that grounded 328 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: in the science of the illness is being treated well. 329 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: And this guy, the guy you're talking about it, sounds 330 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: like he kind of developed a bit of a god 331 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: complex around it too. When you're unchecked and you can 332 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: do this stuff and you have this vision, you know, 333 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: but no one's stopping you, then of course you're just 334 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: gonna push it as far as you can, right, and 335 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: no one's stopping you. And like in the case of 336 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: you and Cameron, you're being made the head of the 337 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: American Psychiatric Association. That's like total valid and should like 338 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: go take it further and so well, back to the 339 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: control group. One of the things I wanted to do 340 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: is what would one of these conversations be like with 341 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, where they're 342 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: coaxing him along, and like, maybe you should try pushing 343 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: the envelope a little bit. And because I wanted to, 344 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: because because the doctors who are doing these things are 345 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: not monsters. They're ambitious, and I think they all have 346 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: good intentions, even if they have egos kind of running rampant, 347 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: And it doesn't take a whole lot of encouragement to 348 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: get someone to maybe cross the threshold into something a 349 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: little less ethical than they might if they were, um 350 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: not being fueled by so much encouragement and adoration. I 351 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: think that's a really good point because in the real 352 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: world we see these sorts of situations coalescing in degrees 353 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: of increments. It's not as if some shady person from 354 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: what was that phrase, Britt cut out comes to you 355 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: when comes to you and says, let's see how much 356 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: LSD we can pump into someone before we ruin their lives. 357 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna just get like ten people and just take 358 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: a spaghetti at the wall approach. You know that that's 359 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: something that we ease into as people, and it's very 360 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: easy to rationalize those further steps, especially and I think 361 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: this is this even goes to um the degree of 362 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: victimization that some of the medical professionals experience, which is 363 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: much lower than the patients obviously, but there there being 364 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: um convinced that one must make certain sacrifices for the 365 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: quote unquote greater good. And we actually have a clip 366 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: from the controlled group that I think touches on this, right, Matt, Oh, yeah, 367 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: this is this is great. This is from episode four. Uh. 368 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: The name is phenobarbital, and it's a discussion between a 369 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: character named Summer Hill and Dr Hayes and they're discussing 370 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: funding for the I guess the research that's being done 371 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: at the hospital as well as what types of things 372 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: need to be done in order to continue that funding 373 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: of the research. Get us a name, start with that. 374 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: It'll be a good measure of your progress. But if 375 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: you hold that a little longer, do the detective work. 376 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: Connect the dots. I'll try, but I can't help wondering 377 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 1: whether or not we should be I'll stop thinking about should. 378 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: Should is a dirty word in research. Take yourself off 379 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: the leash, Dr Hayes. Allow yourself to run. You have 380 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: a hunch, follow it, got an inch, scratch it and 381 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: urge indulge it, and don't stop to ask whether it's 382 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: something you should be doing. If it gives you a 383 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: better understanding, that's all that matters. I love and detest 384 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: this so much because it feels too real to me, 385 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: having this person from the outside group that controls the 386 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: money that's gonna gonna fund the research come in and say, well, 387 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, don't you want to do something that's going 388 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: to be different and beyond. I mean, I know you're fifty, 389 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: but you've really got to think like a twenty six 390 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: year old and push things harder, but he never once 391 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: says anything about you know, this is exactly what you 392 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: need to do or anything like that. So he's got 393 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: this weird plausible deniability with with him and his cutout, um. 394 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time he's convincing this doctor to 395 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: push himself ethically to the to the boundary and perhaps beyond. 396 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: And it makes me wonder just how much of that 397 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: is actually what A heard during the mk Ultra trials, 398 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: how much they were just pushing people without the CIA 399 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: actually being the ones who are these dastardly who come 400 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: up with the dastardly ideas that we then think about 401 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: as being perhaps evil if you look back with hindsight, 402 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: it just makes you wonder if they're they're literally just 403 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: the pushers, just getting the scientists to keep going that 404 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: extra mind, right, I think, giving them the resources to 405 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: keep going, giving them the encouraging, uh you know, stroking 406 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: the ego a little bit. And then also you have 407 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: to remember in the nineteen fifties, um, a couple of 408 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: big things were happening at the time, and the biggest 409 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: one is the Cold War. And even though they didn't 410 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: specifically talk about the applications of this too, you know, 411 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: CIA activities. There was this sort of attitude that certainly 412 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: within the CIA, that we're behind in the race with 413 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: the Russians and the Chinese and the Koreans for mind 414 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: control because they believed brain watched was a real thing, 415 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: and to some degree it is, but not everyone believed 416 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: that it was going to be the thing that was 417 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: gonna You're gonna either transmit something to change the way 418 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: people think, or put something in the water supply. At 419 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: one point, they wanted to put LSD in an entire 420 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: city's water supply, just see what would happen. M or like, 421 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: have some kind of drug or tool, and essentially the Americans, 422 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: as we are, we love gadgets. Uh, the Americans always 423 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: wanted some kind of James Bondian type thing, whether it's 424 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: a drug or a tool or a shot. You know, 425 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: you give someone rather than the more effective means of 426 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: mind control, which is to have a conversation with someone, 427 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: earned their trust, left them talk and uh, you know, 428 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: share your ideas and eventually get them to come around 429 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: to your way of thinking. That is the most effective 430 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: means of mind control. But we don't have time for that. 431 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: We want, you know, we want the magic bullet, we 432 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: want the the spy device. So there was almost like 433 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 1: a sense of espionage to what was going on at 434 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: the time that there was there was a race to 435 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: find um either the secret of brainwashing on the part 436 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: of the CIA, or with medical science, there's always like 437 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: a race to either find the cure or find the 438 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: best treatment, or be the person to break through the 439 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: next threshold of psychological medicine. And a lot of times 440 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: there's this attitude of yeah, well, you know, there are 441 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: some ethical issues with this, but if we succeed, it's 442 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: for the greater good, so we're going to go ahead 443 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: and do the do the experiment. And you know that 444 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: persists today. There's always this sort of suggestion that if 445 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: you break a few eggs, that's fine, but as you know, 446 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: think of the millions of lines it's going to save 447 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: if these test subjects die for the sake of science. 448 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's so many ways you can justify 449 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: doing something unethical, so many ways you can talk yourself 450 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: into believing that you're actually doing it for the greater good. 451 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: The greater good is one of those things that is 452 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: always such a when you hear phrase, you have to 453 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: be very suspicious of it because when someone trucks it out, 454 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: someone's gonna get hurt. It's a power move, right. It's 455 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: like I can tell you what the greater good is 456 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: because I have the master plan. I see the big picture, 457 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: and you need to get on board. Yeah. Our superproducer 458 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: Paul uses the phrase the greater good? Is it? Okay, 459 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: I'll play Devil's advocating for a moment. Isn't there a 460 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: greater good overall for humanity in some way? And this 461 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: is just me Devil's advocating. It's called God's plan. But 462 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: I'll being completely serious, like, there are maybe things that 463 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: humanity is going to face in our not so distant future. 464 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: Choices are gonna have to make sure. They're gonna be 465 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: really hard and are probably gonna end up killing lots 466 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: and lots of people. Yeah, but isn't the problem that 467 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: it's like the people in power, whether it's in like 468 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: an organization like a psychiatric hospital or a government, that 469 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: usually the ones that dictate the agenda of what that 470 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: greater good is, and they're typically looking out for their 471 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: best interests or the best interest of their cronies in 472 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: some way, not necessarily the greater greater good. It's more 473 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: like this notion of I it's my greater good. I 474 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: don't know that's what I see it. Maybe that's cynical, 475 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: but I think you're right on. It's in that kind 476 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: of situation. Is very easy to define the greater good 477 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: as the things that are that make things that are 478 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: good for me greater. I mean, I would describe it 479 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: as the status quo in many ways. Sure, yeah. And 480 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: also they're differing definitions. I mean, it was being a 481 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: little bit lived, but there are differing definitions for some people. 482 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: A spiritual greater good is a world in which one 483 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: of all living people follow the same specific religion. In uh, 484 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: if we're looking at a purely soulless biological imperative, then 485 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: the greater good is one in which no individuals matter. 486 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: The human species just metastasizes and eventually gets to the stars. 487 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Neither of those are particularly great things for individuals. Right, well, 488 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: let me tell you about migraat or good. All right, 489 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: so so we can see that motivation. And I think Brett, 490 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: your words of warning are astute and sorely needed, both 491 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: in the current age and in past ages. But we 492 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: don't want to lose some of the conversation we're having 493 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: about other mad scientists is okay, if we call the 494 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: mad scientists, is that is that out of bounds because 495 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily insane, right, they're just mad with power? Yeah, 496 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: they're not that. They're not always angry either. Okay, So 497 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: scientists here we go, hold on one. Okay, so these 498 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: these perturbed scientists, could you tell us a little more. 499 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: It sounds like you may have found a rogues gallery 500 00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: of people that you considered, uh, investigate further. Well, you know, 501 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: so we talked about Henry Cotton and Walter Freeman is 502 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the person who's really behind the lobotomy, and I don't 503 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: know that we need to add too much to his legacy. Um. 504 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: Jean Martin Charcot was a nineteenth century scientist and his 505 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: big thing was hysteria. And on the plus side, he 506 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: was one of the first to say hysteria is not 507 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: just a female malady. Men can have symptoms of hysteria 508 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: as well. And but then he kind of got the 509 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: show business bug, not literally, but um he would have 510 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: these demonstrations and invite people into the surgical theater and 511 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: have patients come out and perform for this audience of 512 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: medical dignitaries, and what would happen is women who suffered 513 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: from this particular brand of hysteria would have seizures and contortions, 514 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: and their bodies would twist into very strange uh positions 515 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: and then sometimes have something UH sort of called an 516 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: erotic ecstasy. And these became very popular among the intelligencia 517 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: in the medical community. And there's even one woman named 518 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: Blanche Whitman who became known as the Queen of hysterics 519 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: because when she would perform, she could always be relied 520 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: upon to have the convulsions at the right time and 521 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: really exhibit her erotic ecstasy in a way that was dramatic. 522 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: So at a certain point, what are we what are 523 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: we proving and studying anymore? Um? But it's and again 524 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: it's it's women who were the ones put on exhibit. 525 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: And there's a very famous painting of Charcot holding UM 526 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: Blanche Whitman in front of an audience of men in 527 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: this surgical environment. UM. But careful with the mad scientist thing, 528 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: because I have a favorite doctor who, by a lot 529 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: of standards would be considered a mad doctor, but actually 530 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: was a brilliant surgeon. And UM, contributed an awful lot 531 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: to our understanding of anatomy. And that's John Hunter, who 532 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: was eighteenth century resurrectionist, and he was the first who 533 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: really championed anatomizing bodies, cutting open bodies to understand them 534 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: that way. This is when there was still a big 535 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: taboo on it, and you would only get a body 536 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: if if someone was hanged or executed, the surgeons could 537 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: have their bodies, and that became a big trade. And 538 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: then eventually they started robbing graves to get the body 539 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: so that the students would have any something to practice on. 540 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: And when I first was reading about him, it was 541 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: in a book, a really sensational book about like the 542 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: corpse robbers and robbers of eighteenth century. But I read 543 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: a really amazing biography of this guy, and it totally 544 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: showed that he was breaking down these, um, these sort 545 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: of notions we have that you can't cut open a 546 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: human body, and that it's degrading to have your body 547 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: um you know, uh violated. Yeah, and that's what they 548 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: would call it, right yeah. And and and it was 549 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: like when people would be executed there, it would be 550 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: a very frightening thing for them to realize that their 551 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: body is going to be given to the school for 552 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: the young surgeons to practice on. But he totally believed 553 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: in it and anatomized so many bodies over his lifetime 554 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: and really broke that barrier and helped facilitate getting to 555 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: the point where bodies were provided to medical schools so 556 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: that you could learn from the thing that's gonna you know, 557 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna actually be operating on. I'm going to tell 558 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: you this anecdote, which you may want to cut out 559 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: for sensitive listeners, or we should just give a little 560 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: trigger warning. Um, go right ahead. One of my favorite 561 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: stories of him, and it's shocking, but at the same 562 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: time it shows this guy, John Hunter was so believed 563 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: in what he was doing. Um, you didn't have a 564 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: lot of way of testing certain things, and so he 565 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: wanted to find out, like certain liquids in the body, 566 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: how they've aged after death. And so one of the 567 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: great they quoted in this book, um where he took 568 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: the semen of a corpse and put it in his 569 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: mouth and like kind of switched it around and it 570 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: was like, yep, it has a a a metallic brackish taste, 571 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: and so you know, how else are you gonna like 572 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: test things like that, But that just shows to him 573 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: that the body it was not it had so been, 574 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: had been demystified for him. He just wanted to learn 575 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: about the flesh and all of it's this little glory exactly, 576 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: and was willing to do everything to better understand it. So, 577 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, we have our scientists who 578 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: are doing shocking things, but at the same time, a 579 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: lot of times not always um it yields knowledge and 580 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: it leads to demystification and the loss of certain taboos 581 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: that we have about the body. Hold on a second, guys, 582 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: let's not go there quite yet. First, let's take a 583 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break. You know, that's something we've discussed on 584 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: the show numerous times. What do you do with research 585 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: that's gained from human experimentation over the years, like Unit 586 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: one or some of the things that the Nazi Party 587 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: was doing. What do you do with the because there 588 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: is there's information, raw data that is collected there about 589 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: the horrible things a human can endure. And we we 590 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: kind of had a discussion last time, like do you 591 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: just throw that away? Do you keep it locked away somewhere? 592 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: Do you actually use it towards medical research in the future? 593 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: What do you think, Brett, what should we do with 594 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: all this stuff? I mean, once the deed is done, 595 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: you certainly have to try to gain from the knowledge 596 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: that provided, as long as you're not encourage ing further, 597 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, an ethical experimentation. But do you feel like 598 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: there are things still going on? And I wanted to 599 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: try to suggest this with the Control Group, that we 600 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: look back on the horrors of the mid nineteen fifties, 601 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: and people in the mid nineteen fifties look back on 602 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: the horror of the turn of the century, and so 603 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: on and so on and so on. Do you sort 604 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: of feel like, what's the horror that people are gonna 605 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: look at us fifty years from now and sort of 606 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: realized they did what? Absolutely, And it's fantastic that you 607 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: bring this up. Well, tragic and disturbing, but also fantastic 608 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: because that's one of the questions that we had for you. 609 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: And it's sort of a two part question. So the 610 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: first is what do you see as the the importance 611 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: or the the crucial relevance of a work like the 612 00:37:55,239 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: Control Group in the modern age? And that's that's a 613 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: big question to throw someone. But then the second part 614 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: is exactly what you're asking us, do you think it 615 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: is possible that there is experimentation occurring today that will 616 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: later be looked at with approbrium by future historians. I 617 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: was just trying to make a list, and it was thinking, 618 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: you know, one of the big disadvantages is that a 619 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: lot of that stuff, if it is occurring, will be classified. Right, 620 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: So we only found out about things like psychic driving, 621 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: whereas you said, seven boxes escaped to purge you know, Um, 622 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: and what do we know now? We know that there 623 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: are some pretty uh boundary violating experiments with big data, right, 624 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: that might be something, But as far as suppressed medical experimentation, 625 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what. I couldn't conjecture, you know. I 626 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: was thinking about this, and again I think it's uh. 627 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 1: And it's part of that double edged sword of while 628 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: we judged past, we shouldn't judge the past too harshly, because, um, 629 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: a lot of times, this was the best they had, 630 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: and so they were They were sincerely desperately trying to 631 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 1: deal with certain illnesses. And we may not agree with 632 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: the way they treated it, but they were desperate and 633 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: there were no other ways of really treating it. And 634 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of you know, I've I've sort of feel 635 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: horrible bringing it up. But when you think about something 636 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: like chemotherapy, it's it's all we got right now. It's 637 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: it's it is the thing that is or one of 638 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: the things that is the most effective in treating cancer. 639 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: You know, fifty years from now when we look, if 640 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: someone looks back, they're going to say, you did what 641 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: you you know, you put radioactive material in someone's body 642 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: so that the body would kind of, you know, fight 643 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: and kill some portion of something that's growing inside it. 644 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: But it worked. It was what we were able to 645 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: do with the tech knowledgy we have. So I'm not 646 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: by that saying that chemotherapy is bad and radiation therapy 647 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: is bad, but um, you know, don't judge. Hopefully we 648 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: won't be judged harshly because it's it is the best. 649 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: We're doing the best we can, and we have to 650 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: cut some slack to the people who were you know, 651 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to say that cut slack to people who 652 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: are performing lobotomies and you know, excessive shock treatment and 653 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: things in the past. I don't think it was malicious 654 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: and it was the best they had in treating these things. 655 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: And fortunately things have gotten a lot better. So the 656 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: treatments were using today we know are more effective and 657 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: they're focused and their specific. But at the same time, 658 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: technology is going to reach a point to where they 659 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: have genetic modification and these diseases just disappear, and they're 660 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: gonna look back and say, well, why didn't y'all do that? 661 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: And you know, we're going to be the people who were, 662 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, putting people in iron lungs. Basically we didn't 663 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: have the cure. This was what we had, So you know, 664 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: it's a certain amount of tolerance for the quote unquote 665 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: mad scientists of the past is called for. I think 666 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: well said, yeah, that really answers the question that you 667 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: brought up to. Man, it's like, what do we do 668 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: with this research? And sometimes the means justify, not justify 669 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,720 Speaker 1: the ends, but at least you can accept the results 670 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: as like something of value, even in retrospect. I don't know, 671 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: it's hard, it's really hard. How do we make it 672 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 1: not a total loss right almost to like honor the 673 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: people that were subjected to this stuff. It's like, you 674 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: don't what do you just, out of like pure ethical 675 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: kind of panicky outcry toss out positive results from these 676 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: experiments that seems counterproductive and and almost disrespectful to those 677 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: who may have lost their lives or been damaged in 678 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: these kinds of experiments. Yeah, I'm gonna be a little 679 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: bit conspiratorial and this this is just my opinion. I 680 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: would absolutely be unsurprised if it turned out that there 681 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: were unethical and indeed illegal experiments being conducted through some tenuous, 682 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: uh tenuously attached form of government funding. Because one thing 683 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: that's really interesting about you and Cameron that we missed. 684 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: I believe we mentioned it, but I don't think we 685 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: emphasized it enough. He was from Quebec. These experiments that 686 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: he was conducting occurred in Canada. So in this case, 687 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: the CIA and the various cutouts were not funding experimentation domestically. 688 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: It happened abroad. So if something like this is happening 689 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: in our current world, it is probably happening somewhere where 690 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement or rule of laws a little more lacks 691 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: a little weaker. But I I feel like just with 692 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: all the medical breakthroughs that are occurring around the cusp 693 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: of occurring, it is less plausible that something like that 694 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: is not happening, which I know sounds like maybe I'm 695 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: a little tinfoil on this one, no, because and there's 696 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: there's a sort of a suggestion of that. In reading 697 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: accounts of UM the CIA CIA activities, there's a thing 698 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: which comes up, and we talked about it in episode 699 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: ten UH called terminal studies, and that's where you conduct 700 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 1: an experiment on someone to the point of no return. 701 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: And there's no evidence that any terminal studies were performed 702 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: in the United States, but at least one source sort 703 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: of says, well, but some studies were performed in other 704 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: countries on people who are not Americans, like prisoners of war, 705 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,439 Speaker 1: and we don't know what happened there, and so there's 706 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, you know, a good chance. I would 707 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: just say that it's entirely plausible that terminal studies were 708 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: performed on you know. And and again, this is like 709 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: the Korean War. This is war or we were losing 710 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: or were we're behind in the race for the control 711 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: of the human mind, and it calls for, you know, 712 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: desperate measures. I would just say, with the number of 713 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: destabilized nations right now across the globe, it makes me 714 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: wonder if there isn't some kind of this is conspiratorial, 715 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: but some kind of smaller operation that's still studying interrogation 716 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: techniques out there in black sites. I mean, they're just 717 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: so there's so many places where it could be happening, 718 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: where there is a even a small CIA footprint. Yeah. Well, 719 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: on that note, we did get to the present day 720 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: a very scary way. We hope that you do not 721 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: consider this show a form of mind control, because it's 722 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: just hit me. When you were describing this bread you said, uh, 723 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: you said, you know, the real form of brainwashing and 724 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: mind controlling, it's just hanging out and talking with people, yeah, 725 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: and getting them over on your side. And it hit me. 726 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, no, have we accidentally become Brett has 727 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: a very disarming smile, and it does make me a 728 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: little nervous. But we do want to we do want 729 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: to thank you so much for taking the time to 730 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: come on the show today and teach us a little 731 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: bit more about the real world inspirations behind the Control group, 732 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,280 Speaker 1: which when you check out the show, uh, does sound 733 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: like there's no way it could have really happened, but 734 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: it's presented in a very plausible escalation because it did happen. Yeah, 735 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 1: And just to make sure Ronald Grant is that Frank Olson. 736 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: It's sort of miss Frank Olsen. Accept Yeah, Frank Olsen 737 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 1: did not die under the same circumstances in which, right, 738 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: there are a number of parallels between the Control Group 739 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 1: and the real life counterparts. So if you're a real fan, 740 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: you know that um Morgan Hall is the alias of 741 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: George White, who's the notorious former Bureau of Narcotics agent 742 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: who was in charge of the safe houses where Operation 743 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,879 Speaker 1: Midnight Climax and other things went on. So there's there's 744 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: lots of sort of easter eggs for people who are 745 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: fans of this kind of information. We left a lot 746 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: of things unsaid in particular exactly just want to put 747 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: that out there. We don't want to spoil it there. 748 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: It's this is an interesting thing you could do right now. 749 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this after we conclude this show. I'm 750 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: gonna go back and listen to the mk Ultra episode 751 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: that we did. Then I'm going to go and finish 752 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: episode six because that's the one I'm currently on in 753 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: the Control Group, and I'm going to see where all 754 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: those parallels are, because it's I can see it already 755 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: up until this point, but Episode nine is Midnight Climax, 756 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: So I want to really listen to that one, and 757 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: thank you, of course folks for tuning in. We would 758 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: love to hear your stories or accounts, and this way 759 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: be opening a little bit of a risky door. But 760 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: if you have knowledge of what you consider to be 761 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: unethical or illegal human experimentation occurring in modern day, or 762 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: if you know of something that did happen and has 763 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,240 Speaker 1: not yet reached the public sphere for one reason or another, 764 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: contact us. We would like to hear from you. You 765 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 1: can write to us on social media. Got the Facebook, 766 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: at the Instagram. We are Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram, 767 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook and Twitter. Right, all right, you 768 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: know there's another way to get to us too, but 769 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: we'll hold off on that for a second. We want 770 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: to find out first a little bit more about our guest. 771 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,760 Speaker 1: That's right, Brett. Where can we listen to the Control 772 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: Group and learn more about you and your films and 773 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: all of that stuff. We can find the Control Group 774 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts and all major podcast platforms, and we 775 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: have a site which is a Control Group dot show. 776 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: And uh, as far as me, I'm on the Internet 777 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: Movie Database and I don't maintain like a regular profile 778 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: type page, but I try to stay active in the 779 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: social media's as much as I can, And you can 780 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: also find the Control Group social media on Instagram, Facebook, 781 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: and Twitter if you want to interact directly with the show. 782 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: There's some really cool visual aspects to it that I 783 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: think are definitely worth the digital trip. And all the 784 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,879 Speaker 1: films that I've made, including The Unwanted and of course 785 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 1: Hell's Highway, are available on DVD from Keno Larber. So 786 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: get out there right now. You can go ahead and no, 787 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 1: don't pause, yeah, let it finish, but then subscribe to 788 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: the Control Group and then start listening to those episodes 789 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: right after this, uh, and then tell us what you 790 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,359 Speaker 1: think about it. You can give us a call. We're 791 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: one eight three three s T d W y t 792 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: K damn. Now you guys are gonna do that? Oh yeah, 793 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I prefer it that way. I just went perfect. 794 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: But if you if you don't want to call us, 795 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: but you should, you can send us an email. Were 796 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. M