1 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wasn't All and I'm Tracy Hallaway. Tracy, you know, 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: we have guests come back on the show from time 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: to time, and we have guests come on multiple times, 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: but it's not every day or it's not common that 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: we have a guest and then not long not long thereafter, 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: something major happens to them and they're in the center 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: of the news and we immediately have to get them back. No, 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: that's true. So you make it sound like a bad thing, 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: but it's a good thing. This is a good thing. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: So one of the things that happened earlier this year 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: we had the Inflation Reduction Act that got passed and 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: tucked inside that very big act is three hundred fifty 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: billion dollars that our previous all thoughts guest gets to 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: play around with invest Yeah, so earlier in the year 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: we spoke with a Jigger Shaw. He has the head 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: of the loan program at the Department of Energy, and 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that he had a loan budget somewhere around uh, 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, thirty billion essentially away from the public sector 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: to provide backstop or provide accelerated financing for new energy technologies. 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: Kind of an interesting conversation, but I don't think you 22 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: on the grand scheme of the energy transition, you necessarily 23 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: expect thirty billion dollars to really move the needle, right, 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: but three billion might do right. So, as part of 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act in August, the you know, there's 26 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: a lot in there. It's a huge bill, much of 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: it related to climate, energy transition, energy security. Tucked into 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: that bill basically is money that will turn the loan 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: program at the Department of Energy into a major player. 30 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: It now has, as you said, over a three hundred 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars to lend out to accelerate clean energy finance. 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: And so rather than just being sort of this small 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: office jigger, our guest is a crucial player in the 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: energy transition. Yeah, a major player. So we should definitely 35 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: talk to him about what's interesting him right now and 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: how he might actually deploy some of that money. Jigger. 37 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming back on odd lots. 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me back. So this is very exciting. 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Let's go really big picture to start talk to us 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: about what you had to deploy or sort of the 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: size of the d OE loan office when we talked 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: to you in June when it didn't look like there 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: was going to be some major changes, and now what 44 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: the law means for your role. Yeah, Look, I think 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: that the Loan Program's Office has always played a critical 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: role in figuring out how to get debt into infrastructure right. 47 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 1: Infrastructure projects don't get built to make unlevered returns. They 48 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: generally need an equity debt split, and debt really doesn't 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: want to get involved early in technologies that it it 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: perceives as risking. And so you have this fundamental disconnect 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: where you've got a bunch of awesome R and D 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: happening at the Department of Energy and a lot of 53 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: technologies that gather dust waiting to get deployed at scale 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: because first of a kind deployments are really difficult. So 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: our office has put about thirty five billion dollars out 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: the door, mostly in two thousand nine and and then 57 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: has roughly thirty nine billion dollars left to deploy into 58 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: what's called seventeen O three Titles seventeen, which is where 59 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the solar and wind projects got funded. 60 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: We had the a t v M, the Advanced Technology 61 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: Vehicle Manufacturing Program, which is where Tesla and Ford got 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: their loans. And then we have the Tribal Energy Loan 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: Guarantee Program. So that's what we had when we last talked, 64 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: was roughly around thirty nine billion dollars of remaining authority, 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: and then we got more out of the Inflation Reduction Act, 66 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: almost ten times more. So I have a conceptual question 67 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: about the program. And I know it's been going on 68 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: for a while. You mentioned the loans to Tesla and Ford, 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: but why did the government or the Department settle on 70 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: loans versus grants? Like what was the thinking there? Well, 71 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: we do both, right, So I mean we have the 72 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: federal government, you can do both. So we have the 73 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: Office of Cleanergy Demonstration, which has over twenty billion dollars 74 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: worth of grants that I can put out the door, 75 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: and I think it got an additional eight billion in 76 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act for industrial decarb But ultimately grants 77 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: don't actually cross help you cross the bridge to bank ability. Right, 78 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: So when you think about where we are in the 79 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: commercialization spectrum, we have a whole bunch of technologies that 80 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: work right that we it physically works in the lab, 81 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: in the national laboratories, etcetera. And then you need a 82 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: demonstration projects, and those demonstration projects are generally at a 83 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: quarter scale, half scale something like that, and you end 84 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: up getting grants for that, right, and then those grants 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: are really useful in proving that technology, not just that 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: the underlying technology works, but also that the that the 87 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: operations and some of those pieces which are softer skills, 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: that those actually work as well. But then you're still 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: left with the technology that commercial banks don't want to fund, 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: and in that case, you really do want loans. And 91 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: when you talk to Wall Street banks and other banks 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: um in the United States and elsewhere, they really do 93 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: look to us to go first. And when we go first, 94 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: they are watching us very carefully and say, wow, that 95 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: was a great way that you under wrote that loan. 96 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: We are now going to do the next ten loans. 97 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: And if we didn't do that first loan, they wouldn't 98 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: have done the next ten. Can you talk a little 99 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: bit more about Post Inflation Reduction Act your office, I mean, 100 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 1: Tracy mentioned that now your allocation is, you know, maybe 101 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: around ten x larger than it was, but it can't 102 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: just be about there's more dollar amount, like well, talk 103 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: to us a little bit more about how you're thinking 104 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: about this new opportunity, this level of uh, this level 105 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: of cash to work with. Yeah, I mean it's a 106 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: good question. Look, I think that we have already been 107 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: very active in the last eighteen months that I've been 108 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: in office, and so that means that we have I 109 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: think we just announced today over eighty four active applications 110 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: now into the office seeking over eighty six billion dollars 111 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: of loans from our office. Right, So that's the Outreach 112 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: and Business Development Group. And what I would say here 113 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: is that there was a serious breakdown and trust between 114 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and growth companies and our office, right because you 115 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: could imagine after Celindra occurred and you had all the 116 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: hearings in the Hill, etcetera, people like I don't know 117 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: if I want to work with this office, And so 118 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: there getting people to look at this office and to 119 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: believe that we were going to be a reliable source 120 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: of loan financing for them was a huge accomplishment. I 121 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: think over last eighteen months and we've been able to 122 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: get loans applied for across thirteen sectors. So this includes 123 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: folks who use natural gases of feedstock to make carbon 124 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: black and hydrogen like models materials that includes hydrogen storage 125 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: facility that we talked about and then the last podcast 126 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: at Delta, Utah. So now you have all these people 127 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: who have applied, and you now see it the next 128 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: two hundred potential applicants looking at our office saying, wait 129 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: a second, maybe I'm missing out on something here. I 130 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: should be looking at this office more carefully. And so 131 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: we've now you know, we're going to hire another twenty 132 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: people in the outreach of business develop and these folks 133 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: are generally folks who have sold a company, right their 134 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: senior executives that are sort of looking for ways to 135 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: give back, and so they're joining our office helping to 136 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: be an on budsman for their fellow entrepreneurs and saying, look, 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, the water's warm, you should jump in, because remember, 138 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: these applicants have to spend two to three hours filling 139 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: out an application. Right, It's no joke. It's not unlike 140 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: what it would be to get a billion dollar loan 141 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: out of a commercial bank. It's a full data room. 142 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 1: The whole newn yards you mentioned Cylindra, and we should 143 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: definitely talk about that, but before we do, I just 144 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: have one more basic question, which is, you know, three 145 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars. Is there some sort of time frame 146 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: that you have to spend that in. Yeah. So for 147 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: the title seventeen program, which is seventeen three, that's where 148 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: the project financ occurs. And then we have a new 149 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: program called seventeen o six, which is repurposing energy infrastructure 150 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: so that it can play a you know, continued role 151 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: in the energy transition, right, so converting a coal plant 152 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: to a nuclear plant, things like that. That is seventeen 153 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: o six. Those two programs expire at the end of 154 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: so we have to put that money out the door 155 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: over the next four years. And then the Advanced Technology 156 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: Vehicle Manufacturing Program got an additional forty billion of loan authority, 157 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: and the Tribal Energy Loan Guarantee Program got an additional 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: twenty billion of loan authority, and those two go through. 159 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: So when you're thinking about making these loads and something 160 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: you talk about and I want to talk about the 161 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: theory a little bit, or the theory of how this changes. 162 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: And as we talked about last time on the show, 163 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: and as you've been tweeting about, you know, this really 164 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: is important in energy tech in particular, for the government 165 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: to de risk a sector or to establish some credibility 166 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: or to make that first loan. When you're thinking about 167 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: these loans, how much are you thinking about, Okay, this 168 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: is an interesting company, maybe we'll be the next Tesla 169 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: or something like. This is an interesting company that we 170 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: have an opportunity to really accelerate, versus this is an 171 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: interesting sector. And how much are you thinking about making 172 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: loans not with the express purpose of maybe supporting a company, 173 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: but trying to really foster an entire industry. And how 174 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: do you maximize this sort of crowding in effect, so 175 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: that you create a casscade of investments across players in 176 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: any given promising space. Yeah, I've got multiple answers probably 177 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: to your question. I'd say that from a strictly the 178 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: way that we run our office answer, if you fill 179 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: out the paperwork and you qualify for the Loan Programs office, 180 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: then we'll give you money like full stop. Right, So 181 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: I don't really care if you're going to be the 182 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: next elon Moscow, You're gonna be the next whatever, if 183 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: your project meets what we call the reasonable prospect of repayment. 184 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: We really do operate like a commercial bank. So if 185 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: I feel like the ingredients of your project means that 186 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: we're likely to get paid back, then you'll get a 187 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,239 Speaker 1: loan that's separate from where we do our outreaching business development. 188 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: So in our outreaching business development, you can imagine we 189 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: are looking for areas where there is a crowding in 190 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: already of an ecosystem, right, Because where we fail is 191 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: if if a company is really amazing, but everyone leaves 192 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: the space, then then we're stuck with a loan that 193 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: everyone is basically just you know, trying to make good 194 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: on for twenty years, but there's no excitement there. I'll 195 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: give you an example, like solo thermal electric, Right, So 196 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: these big mirrors in the middle of the desert. We 197 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: funded a bunch of those Project X right in the 198 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: first generation. Nobody wants to do that anymore. They're all 199 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: moved on to solar PV panels and other things. Right. 200 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: So I'm stuck with a bunch of loans with a 201 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: bunch of projects that work and their cell power. But 202 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: you can imagine that there's no enthusiasm in that sector 203 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: for innovation or anything else. But I still have those 204 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: loans for twenty years. Tracy, if you've never driven past 205 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: the Ivan Paw solar mirror farm outside of Las Vegas. 206 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: It's really incredible. It's just a bunch of mirrors all 207 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: pointing light at a boy at a big pot of 208 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: water to get it to boil to spin a turban. 209 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: But I don't. It's not the most perhaps tech exciting thing, 210 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: but it is visually very cool to see when you 211 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: drive by it. Next time I go, don't have to 212 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: take a look. Actually, this kind of leads into one 213 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to ask, which is you mentioned choosing 214 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: commercially viable projects or things that you think will be 215 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: able to repay the loan. How do you go about 216 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: evaluating unproven tech in that category? Because it seems like, 217 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, if someone comes to you and says, we 218 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: want to build a big solar farm here, or we 219 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: want to do geothermal there, that seems like an understood 220 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: risk or more understood risk. But when people come to 221 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: you with something completely new, how do you evaluate that? Yeah, 222 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: so to be clear, we never take technology risk of 223 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: the loan program's office, right, so we take perceived technology risk. 224 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: There are a lot of technologies that you probably look 225 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: at and go that looks risky. But I've got ten 226 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: thousand engineers, scientists and experts that sit on the d 227 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: o E platform that have been working on that exact 228 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: technology for twenty five years, and that technology is not 229 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: risky to them, and they can show me demonstration project 230 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: after demonstration project where the underlying concepts around that technology 231 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: has worked. Now it may not actually work operationally, and 232 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: that risk we date do take. So, for instance, on 233 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: the monolith materials deal that we provide a conditional commitment 234 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: to back last December, that technology is twenty five years old. 235 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: It basically uses methane pyalysis to split natural gas into 236 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: carbon black and hydrogen, right, and the carbon black goes 237 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: to make your tires and the hydrogen is actually quote 238 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: unquote free, and they're using that to make fertilizer in 239 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: Nebraska where they need it. Now, if that technology works 240 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: but they're only able to maintain a fifty up time 241 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: and the plant, then they're going to barely be able 242 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,719 Speaker 1: to pay back our loan. But if they if they 243 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: operate that plant at eight percent up time, which is 244 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: what they expect to do, they're gonna be hugely profitable. 245 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: So we're taking that risk, but we're not taking the 246 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: risk that methane pyrolysis actually works. How do you evaluate 247 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: where you see the potential for crowding in this because 248 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, you know, you could always you could 249 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: theoretically have a project that pays back, like the solar mirrors, 250 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: but it's not that exciting. There's not a lot of enthusiasm. 251 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: It's not going to generate some new industry that massively 252 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: changes the game a. How do you sort of identify 253 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: where there's a high likelihood of a sort of more 254 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: fruitful acceleration And are there any specific areas right now, 255 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: any subsectors of energy right now that you're looking to 256 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: that you're thinking, okay, yes, this is something that clearly 257 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: you can you can add some fuel to the fire. 258 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: There's definitely a lot of sectors where we're very excited, 259 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: but let me it might be more instructive to tell 260 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: you where I'm less excited. Not unlike venture capitalists, you 261 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: look at the TAM of the market, right, the total 262 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: addressable market, and you know, like when you look at like, 263 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: for instance, small hydro right, we have report after report 264 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: after report showing that that's probably a sixty billion dollar sector. 265 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: But when you actually go from the TAM to the 266 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: sam to like the smaller addressable market it might be 267 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: five billions, right, and then the question becomes, if we 268 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: put in five million, how do you crowd in a 269 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: bunch of capital when the total market size might be 270 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: five billion that they're chasing. It's really hard. But I 271 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: love hydro right, and geothermal I would say a similar 272 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: or we have next generation technology which will greatly expand 273 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: the ability to geothermal. But if you look at or 274 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: MAT's version of geothermal, for instance, which we funded in 275 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: the two time frame, that market size is very small. 276 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: It might be ten or twenty billion dollars total in 277 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: the United States of that kind of hot rock that 278 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: we know you can put a well down into and find. 279 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: And so unless you get enhanced geothermal, which uses advanced 280 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: fracking technology and other things working, you don't get to 281 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: trilling our scale, and ultimately trillinged our scale is what 282 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: saves gigatons of carbon. Right, eight billion dollars doesn't solve 283 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: gigatons of carbon. So you mentioned Cylindra, and I think 284 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: we should talk about it because whenever anyone and talks 285 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: about these loan programs, this is the one that tends 286 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: to come up or that tends to be brought up 287 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: by critics. So this was a solar company that borrowed 288 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: I think it was like half a billion from the 289 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: Energy Department UM, and then basically defaulted on that. What 290 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: was that experience like or what did you learn from 291 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: that particular example. Well, I was on the other side 292 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: at the time, and you know, I, I and many 293 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: of my colleagues were telling people, don't do that deal, um. 294 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: And look, I think the reason that they did the 295 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: deal was there was probably twelve people working in the 296 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: office at the time. I think the Bush administration had 297 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: started the underwriting of that loan. And then you remember 298 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: we had a financial crisis and we were looking for 299 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: shove already projects and that project were shove already, right, 300 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: So mistakes were made, lots of hearings were held, lots 301 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: of reports are written, and you know, we were given 302 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: a checklist of fourteen or so things that we should 303 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: improve in the office. Those have all been improved today 304 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: to the point where the Office of Management and Budget 305 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: now believes that we manage risk better than probably every 306 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: other lending institution in government. So I'm not gonna say 307 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: that it can never happen again, but I would say 308 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: that that deal would definitely not make it through today's 309 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: Loan Program's office. And when we do have failures in 310 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: our office, which we've had many, right whether it's you know, 311 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: the Tonempad deal, or whether it's Fisker or Bound Solar 312 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: or others, we now average fifty five cents on the 313 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: dollar of recovery. And you know, our total losses for 314 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: the whole program, including Cylindra, has been roughly three which 315 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: is the same as a commercial bank portfolio. You mentioned 316 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: that something like the Cylinder alone wouldn't have gotten through 317 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: the approval process nowadays. What is it about the process 318 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: that's changed, Like, what are you doing differently now? Well 319 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: for manufacturing projects, which is what Cylinder is like. So 320 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: I'm evaluating the next generation of solar projects, right. So, 321 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: and in the Inflation Reduction Act, we had a new 322 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: policy called SEMA that ast which provides an additional incentive 323 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,959 Speaker 1: to solar manufacturing in the United States. So we've got 324 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: twenty giga watts of new solar manufacturing applying or having 325 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: already applied to the Loan Programs Office that we're evaluating, 326 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: and we're very conservative. Were saying, you know, what are 327 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: your off take agreements. How solid are those offtake agreements? 328 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: Are you approven operator of these kinds of plants? Do 329 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: you know that the solar panels are gonna work? How 330 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: long will it take to ramp up? Like, I mean, 331 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: we're really really hard on these applicants. Like Cylinder was 332 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: a pure startup company. They had never operated a plant 333 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: like this before. Their product in the field I think 334 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: had maybe had in that particular version two to three 335 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: years of total time in the field, and so it 336 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: had a lot of risks that we would never allow 337 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: through the program today. So you tweeted recently an interesting thread, 338 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: but the first you started you say, there's been a 339 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: central premise that if the technology was ready, then the 340 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: commercialization would happen. And I kind of that kind of 341 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: gives me two thoughts, Like one, do people who from 342 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: say the tech world, and they look at energy or 343 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: they look at climate, do they have misunderstandings about how 344 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: energy technology becomes commercialized? Like are their biases that they 345 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: bring from say consumer tech or business tech where they 346 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: assume there's like, well this works, it works on my phone, 347 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,239 Speaker 1: it's better than the last app so I can do 348 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: the same thing and energy, Like are there things other 349 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: lessons that don't apply. And then just more broadly, like 350 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, you talked about these technologies gathering dust, like 351 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit more about the theory and 352 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: like how it comes together and energy specifically, what has 353 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: to happen for the right technology to meet the moment. 354 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean there's certainly billionaires who I won't name, who 355 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: have no energy experience, that have said lots of things 356 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: that I disagree with around how energy tech gets commercialized. 357 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: I think in general, what I would say, let me 358 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: give you an example, and this is true across every sector, 359 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: but let me give you an example. Like so, if 360 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: you look at fracking, c Oe basically invented fracking. It 361 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: was are all of our R and D right. That's 362 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: been well written about by reporters and journalists. And I 363 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: think I was involved in fracking projects when I worked 364 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: at BP right. But at the time, oil prices were 365 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like thirty bucks of barrel maybe 366 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: or twenty bucks of barrel, and so it didn't make 367 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: any sense. I mean fracking at that time it was 368 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: about eighty dollars of barrel to profitably frack. But you 369 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: had these people who were just like I don't care. 370 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: This is definitely going to change the world, right, Harold 371 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: Ham and some of these other players, and they just 372 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: kept doing it. I mean, why the hell would you 373 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: frack in the back end back in like two thousand 374 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: and three. It made no sense at all, but he did. 375 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: He just kept doing it, and he kept raising money, 376 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: and he kept promising the world to people, this is 377 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: going to definitely change the world. And then in two 378 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, oil prices went to a hundred thirty 379 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: two dollars a barrel, right, and Harold Ham was suddenly rich. 380 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: According to Google, he's worth billion dollars. Right. But I mean, 381 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: but like, in what world did what Harold Ham did 382 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: make any sense to anybody? Right? But the same thing 383 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: is true with Elon Musk when he started, you know, 384 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: when he took over Tesla and then you know, grew it. 385 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: But the same thing is true with Andy marsh. I 386 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have talked to Andy Marsh 387 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: over at plug Power when I helped invest in his 388 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: company while I was a debt provider, when I was 389 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: to generate in t I think his market cap was 390 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: three hundred million dollars. Amazon and Walmart had already agreed 391 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: that they were going to change all of their forklifts, 392 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: that all of their distribution centers to hydrogen based forklifts 393 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: because you could have much higher run time. And the 394 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: payback for Amazon and and Walmart was thirty one days 395 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: to switch, right, But it still took forever, and you know, 396 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: they had to raise money, and it was hard and 397 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: and and today Andy, I don't know what their market 398 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: cap is now, but it topped out. It like thirty 399 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: billion dollars billion right now according to YEA. And they 400 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: are single handedly forcing the world to do green hydrogen. 401 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: They have I think a fourteen billion dollar order book 402 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: of backlog of electoralizers that they're selling into Europe. And 403 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: so there's no rational reason. I think Andy has been 404 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: CEO of that company for thirteen years maybe, But that 405 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: is how this works in this country. You have somebody 406 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: who just feels in their gut that this is gonna happen. 407 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: And and what's different in the energy space versus the 408 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: tech space is there's no upside. Right, So let's say 409 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: you succeed, Let's say you succeed beyond your wildest dreams, right, 410 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: You're still capped by the cost of natural gas, or 411 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: the the cost of oil, the cost of the substitute. 412 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: The only place where that's different is potentially in Tesla, 413 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: where people are willing to pay a hund. That's interesting. 414 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: So you could have this breakthrough, you could have some 415 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: sort of like tech hydrogen breakthrough, fuel cell through green hydrogen, etcetera. 416 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: But if you go through a long period, I guess 417 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: where natural gas is cheap or oil is really cheap, 418 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: it just doesn't matter. You just sort of, I guess what. 419 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: You wait around your turn until there's a moment when 420 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: it becomes economical. Yeah, look at the Vocal nuclear plan, right, 421 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: How many people have written negative stories about the resurgence 422 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: of nuclear in this country. The Vocal Nuclear plant has 423 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: now gotten an RC approval right to load fuel into 424 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: Vocal three. Right, and that facility, Lord Almighty, that timing 425 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: was perfect. Look at where natural gas prices are today. 426 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: Southern Company is thinking they're lucky stars that they have 427 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: new nuclear in their territory right now. Actually, this leads 428 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: into something else that we wanted to ask you about, 429 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: which is nuclear and how you're thinking about it and 430 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: what the opportunity is there? And I guess does it 431 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: feel like attitudes towards nuclear are starting to shift given 432 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: some of the energy shortages we've seen this summer. Well, 433 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: I'll give you two anecdotes. One is that like Diablo Canyon, 434 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: just reverse their decision and will will extend their life there. 435 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: This is in the state that invented anti nuclearism. Right. 436 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: Germany just decided to extend two of their nuclear plants. 437 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: You know that they were planning to shut down in December, 438 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: like the Green Party. The only reason the Green Party 439 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: is even in the government is to shut down the 440 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: nuclear plants. Right, I mean, yes, things have shifted, right, 441 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean we're in a situation right now where you look. 442 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: I love solar and wind. I don't think there's a 443 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: single person on the planet that you could find who 444 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: loves it more than I do. But I read models, 445 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: I look at data. I look at how California runs 446 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: its grid, how Texas runs its grid. You can't run 447 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: a well functioning grid without a diversity of resources, and 448 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: nuclear is the only re source that can scale to 449 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: the same level that coal and nentrial gases at today 450 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: at that baseload. And when you look at all the 451 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: models coming out of the NREL Clean Futures Reports or 452 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: Princeton or you know, Vibrant Clean Energy or some of 453 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: the other best in class modelers. They're showing that probably 454 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: something in the order oft of all of the grid's 455 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: electricity has to come from what we call clean firm 456 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: technologies right by the way for solar and wind. To 457 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: get to six of the grid, we would have to 458 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: take the current volume, which is around thirty five giga 459 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: wats a year, increase it to eighty gigawats a year, 460 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: and then increase it again to a hundred and sixty 461 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: gig outs here. So no one is taking any like 462 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: food out of the mouth of babes here. Mhm. Do 463 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: you think about grid mix and resiliency when you're approving loans, 464 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: Like would you think like, oh, you know, this could 465 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: add a backup power source to this particular location, or 466 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: this is interesting for that like is that something that 467 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: you try to build in a little bit when you're 468 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: approving these No. So I mean again, like in terms 469 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: of who gets loans, it's people who qualified for money 470 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: from loan program's office. We really are if you fill 471 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: out the paperwork, can you qualify, Yes, you get money. 472 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: Now some of those projects pencil because of the grid mix. Right, 473 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: So like tv A is building to nuclear plans that 474 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: they announced at Clinch River because they believe it's important 475 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: for their grid mix. And if tv A then or 476 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: tv A camp because they're a federal entity. But like 477 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: if Dominion or Duke or somebody else comes in and 478 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: says we want to loan, the reason that they rate 479 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: based that project is because they convince the regulators that 480 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: they needed that nuclear for their grid mix. And so 481 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: that part's true. And separately, we get so much data, 482 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: Like we've evaluated, at a cursory level, a trillion dollars 483 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: of projects since I've come into office m and so 484 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: we have better intel on what's happening in the country 485 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: than any investment bank in the country, right, And so 486 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: that intel can be used to create like insights for 487 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: the government and for planning purposes and all that stuff. 488 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: But the other thing I would say, Tracy, is I 489 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: feel like one of the things that people get hung 490 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: up on is that they really feel like just because 491 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: of spreadsheet models said that it was the best, most 492 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: optimal structure that that would have any chance of becoming reality, right, 493 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: Like these are all hard fought winds, and people take 494 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: it for granted, if you want to build a solar 495 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: farm somewhere, you have to get approve from the land order, 496 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: approval from the county, approval from this thing. That person 497 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: believes that your inverter is going to cause them cancer. 498 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: You're gonna have to figure out how to talk about 499 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: white papers. You're gonna do all these things. Every single 500 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: piece of infrastructure is a struggle. You gotta figure out 501 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: community benefit agreement, so you got to figure out how 502 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: to like work with the labor forces in the area, etcetera. 503 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: And so the modeling helps you to figure out like 504 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: what should be pursued, But then what actually happens is 505 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: based on just blood, sweat and tears from these developers 506 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: in local communities duking it out every day trying to 507 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: get permission to build something. Going back real quickly to 508 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: the nuclear question, and you mentioned the Voto plant in Georgia, 509 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: but more broadly, if nuclear is inevitably going to be 510 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: part of the low carbon mix and provide low carbon 511 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: energy at scale, it seems like plants they always seem 512 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: to be running behind in terms of schedule, over budget, 513 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: and sort of infamous their technology used that people seem 514 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: to be excited about within nuclear small reactors, But I 515 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: don't know that any you're actually getting built or actually 516 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: like scaling, how are you thinking, like, hey, how are 517 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: you thinking about the opportunities in nuclear specifically and how 518 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: you can accelerate it? I don't know. It feels like 519 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: there's all these exciting opportunities and it just seems extraordinarily difficult. 520 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: How can you make it easier? Yeah, no, it's a 521 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: good question. Look, I think the first thing is to 522 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: recognize the way of a problem, right. I mean, even China, 523 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: who is trying to force their way through nuclear, is 524 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: behind schedule and over budget, right, so why is why 525 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: is everyone like why why can't just so that everyone 526 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: is on budget? Well, yeah, no, it's over that they 527 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: added already. I think, um, in general, the like it's 528 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: about building airplanes, not airports, right so, right now a 529 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: nuclear plant is built like an airport, where you know 530 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: a custom design for every single site, and then you 531 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: like sort of like, oh, the contours of this land 532 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: is a little bit different than whatever when you look 533 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: get how a natural gas plant is cited a natural 534 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: gas plant. Bettel like invented a lot of this, but 535 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: others have done the same. They won't actually build a 536 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: natural gas plant for you unless you meet all of 537 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: their spects. They're like, this site has to be perfect, 538 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: it has to have this level, it has to have 539 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: this much land that has to have this, this, this 540 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: and this, and unless it's all perfect, we're not going 541 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: to build it for you. Right, that's what we're doing 542 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: with SMRs. Right, so we're building airplanes. Airplanes are remarkably complex, right, 543 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: many suppliers, lots of assembly, all this, you know management. 544 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: But what you do differently is when they started the 545 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: Vocal nuclear plant, they only had a fifteen completed design. 546 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: When you have an SMR, you have a percent completed 547 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: design because you have a hundred percent complete design before 548 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: you start construction and get all the suppliers locked up 549 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: and all those things right, and then you build them 550 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: in a controlled environment where the amount of civil works 551 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: at the site is less than it is for traditional 552 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: nuclear because most of it's built in a factory and 553 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: then brought in pieces to the site to be final assembled. 554 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: And so so you know, the one that's farthest along 555 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: in North America, as Giatachi has ten reactor orders right 556 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: for from Ontario Power Group, for from Saskatchewan Power and 557 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: then two from t v A, and then the tv 558 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: A site could be doubled to four sites. Then you've 559 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: got places like Duke Energy and others who have put 560 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: three nuclear plants in their i r P plan. They're 561 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: integrated resource plan, but they don't know which technology they're 562 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: gonna pick separately. New Scale just made it through the 563 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Nuclear Regulatory Commission with a full approval, and so they 564 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: are working with u AMPS, which is this UH, this 565 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: group of municipal utilities in Utah to buy power from 566 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: their first facility. And you have an announcement between Whole 567 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: Tech International, which is the world's largest producers of casks 568 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: to sort nuclear waste and energy to build nuclear plants 569 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: between those two firms. So we'll see who wins, right, 570 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: It's not my job to pick who wins and loses. 571 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: It's the utility job to pick which design they want 572 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: to go for. But I do think that they have 573 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: a brand new approach here. And the other thing I 574 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: would say is from a political standpoint, back to what 575 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: I was saying to you before, Tracy, part of the 576 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: reason these projects happen is not just because of cost. 577 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: Part of it happens because of politics. So we have 578 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty five coal plants that have been 579 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: announced for closure. Right. Each of those communities generally are 580 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: populations of less than five thousand people, and so half 581 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: of their budget for their city comes from that coal plant. 582 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: So that coal plant shuts down, they're gonna lose all 583 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: the money they have to pay for schools m right, 584 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: and so they want to replace it with something that's 585 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: going to pay those property taxes. Separately, you have two 586 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: hundred union workers those coal plants, and they want to 587 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: continue to be employed into the future. So you could 588 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: imagine that community preferring a nuclear plant there over a 589 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: solar field with battery storage that don't pay as much 590 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: property tax or have any ongoing operating jobs. I want 591 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: to go back to sort of where we started, and 592 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, you have all this money you're you say 593 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: you're hiring twenty new people, like four years getting it 594 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: out of the door by that kind of doesn't feel 595 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: like that much time. I mean, maybe I don't have 596 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: a great feel, but this seems like a lot of 597 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: cash that you could potentially deploy, and you know you 598 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: don't have an infinite amount of time. Can you talk 599 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: a little bit more about like your sort of plans 600 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: like right now to scale up your office and how 601 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: you're thinking about getting the money out the door in 602 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: a timely manner while also keeping your standards high so 603 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: that the money, you know, ultimately delivers on the promise 604 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: of accelerating what the loan office is for. Yeah, so 605 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: we're definitely hiring more than twenty people are just folks 606 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: in the outreaching business develop it. But in terms of 607 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: maybe breaking this down for you a little, so we 608 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: got a hundred billion dollars of new money into our 609 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: three existing programs, right so at seventeen three, A t 610 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: VM and tribal those programs, given the amount of like 611 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: pipeline we have and all that stuff, those programs should 612 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: put that money out the door within the time frames allotted. 613 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: I have no doubt that we have the right mix 614 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: of entrepreneurs and growth companies who need the money, and 615 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the right mix of you know, employees here to process 616 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: the loans, and so we can get that done. The 617 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: new program, which is seventeen O six, the charge there 618 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 1: is to repurpose energy infrastructure, right so that program does 619 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: not have an innovation requirement like seventeen three does. So 620 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: in that program, the requirement is we have to find 621 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: existing energy infrastructure, right, whether it's been ceased in operations 622 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: or whether it's operating today, and somebody has to suggest 623 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: a conversion of that infrastructure into something within the energy transition. Right. 624 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: So they could convert a coal plant to solar plus storage. 625 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: They could convert it to you know, nuclear plant. They 626 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: could take a refinery and co locate monolith materials you know, 627 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: carbon methande paralysis unit, and then have the excess hydrogen 628 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: from that unit go into the refinery. They could take 629 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: an old pipeline, like we have a couple of people 630 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: of approaches with old pipelines where the natural gas volume 631 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: is actually low because there's a competing pipeline in the area, 632 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: and they want to shut down that pipeline and convert 633 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: it to a CEO two pipeline. Right. So a lot 634 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: of those projects are really about a community coming together 635 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: and saying, hey, we actually have all this expertise in 636 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: our community around energy and around infrastructure, and we'd like 637 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: to continue to you know, to make money and get 638 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: tax revenue and all that stuff from that expertise. Let's 639 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: figure out what we want to repurpose our old energy assets. 640 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: So that's relevant in this decarbonized world. So this announcement 641 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 1: went out as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. What's 642 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: been the response so far? Have you seen an optic 643 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 1: in loan applications? Yeah, we definitely have. And I think 644 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: that the bigger thing, honestly, is that we have a 645 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: really weak ecosystem around the loan Program's office. And you know, 646 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: admittedly because the program's office was largely dormant since so 647 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: what we really need, and we've been doing a great 648 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: job of doing this, but we need a whole bunch 649 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: of like investment banks, commercial banks, you know, the like 650 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: financial advisory firms, etcetera, to be sending their clients our way, 651 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: right because a lot of them are getting hired by 652 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: these entrepreneurs to raise debt for them, and they need 653 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: to be saying, well, actually, you know, I think it 654 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: would be easier for you with the loan Program's office 655 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: because your technology has some of these misunderstood components which 656 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: I think will make it hard for us to raise 657 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: debt in the commercial markets. Do you have those relationships? 658 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: Are they forming such that you're in communication with some 659 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: of the energy bankers or tech bankers, so they start 660 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: to Yeah, you can imagine given my yeah, given my background, 661 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: I've no pretty much all of them, and so we've 662 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: talked to almost all of them in the last eighteen months. 663 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: I'd say, look, you know they're bankers, right, they care 664 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: about earning fees, and so with the IRA passing, they're like, oh, 665 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: the volumes are much higher. I think I can earn 666 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: a lot more fees. So you can imagine that a 667 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,399 Speaker 1: lot of the seeds that we planted twelve months ago 668 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: or like, they're all coming back going, hey, Jakey, you 669 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: know that conversation we had were very interested. Now this 670 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: actually is not a Loan Program office question specifically, but 671 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, we're recording this on September seven, and over 672 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: the last two days and I think over the next 673 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: couple of days. There's a lot of anxiety right now 674 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: about the grid in California specifically, and they can close 675 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: last night, I think to maxing out, but they just 676 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: they managed to avoid wide skill blackouts. But it does 677 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: raise this concern. It's like, Okay, everyone is going to 678 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: be putting their cars on the grid with electrification and 679 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: their stoves and their hot water, et cetera. Is the 680 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: sort of vision and yet right now the headlines and 681 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: the stories are about the grid that have trouble keeping up. 682 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: So we're gonna put all our eggs in this one basket. 683 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: And I kind of feel like people have a reason 684 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: to be intuitively nervous about that. Electrification of all these 685 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: UH industries and appliances seems exciting, except if the grid 686 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: is itself vulnerable. Why shouldn't people be worried about this 687 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: direction that we're going in. So are you saying that 688 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: natural gas pipelines are not vulnerable and that that likes there? 689 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: And my intuition would be that, well, there's a diversity 690 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: of sources, so that gas pipelines exist, grids exist, and 691 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 1: so forth and at one but we're putting all on 692 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: the grid now, right or that's the vision or yeah, look, 693 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: I think that I think the bottom line here is 694 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: that natural gas was a bridge fuel, right, we all 695 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: talked about it being a bridge fuel. And clearly what's 696 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: happening with NORD, you know one and their maintenance issues, 697 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: what's happening with our l n G community, etcetera. I mean, 698 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: the United States is on the second half of the bridge, right, 699 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: Like the bridge was long, it was well built, it 700 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: had wonderful like bones. But now we're on the other 701 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: half of the bridge and we're figuring out how we 702 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: actually moved to something more efficient. Think about how this 703 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: works today. You burn natural gas to cook, right, it 704 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: emits all sorts of weird toxins in your in your 705 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: home when you do that, because natural gas is only 706 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: pure natural gas and the other two percents other stuff. 707 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: So you have indoor air quality issues separately. Right. Natural 708 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,959 Speaker 1: gas in the end, right, is volatile, and you see 709 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: that now with natural gas prices spiking going into the winter, right, 710 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: And so you know, we all got lulled into sleep. 711 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: You know, around how natural gas was super cheap. But 712 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: remember the two thousand and one California electricity crisis part 713 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: of what caused that, Yes, en Ron, but also remember 714 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: natural gas prices spike to like fifteen a million B 715 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: to you. And then remember in two thousand fine when 716 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: Leap five when Lee Raymond said all cheap gas has 717 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: been found in this country and we have reached peak gas. 718 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: Remember this, and then natural gas prices went up to 719 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: like I think they're like ten to twelve dollars a 720 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: million B two in two thousand and seven. Right, then 721 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: the fracking revolution occurred, and it's great, don't get me wrong. 722 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: But even with today's prices of natural gas, right, you're 723 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: seeing not a lot of additional drill rigs and so well, 724 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 1: so when you think about where we are today, Look, 725 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of natural gas, and we should 726 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,919 Speaker 1: be exporting our lergy around the world so that people 727 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: aren't burning more coal. But it is way better to 728 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: use a heat pump, which is three x more efficient 729 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: than a natural gas you know system right, It is 730 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: way better to create an heat pump for your water 731 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: heater than it is something else. On top of that, 732 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: California is just saying don't charge your car from four 733 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: to nine pm, not don't charge your car at all. 734 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: So that means it's like saying, don't fill up your 735 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: gas tank at the gas station from four to nine pm. 736 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: It's not, but it's not. But the point is, that's 737 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 1: not a thing that's said. Right. When you have a 738 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: car that is filled by gasoline, you never have to 739 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,839 Speaker 1: think about that. You fill it up twenty four hours 740 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: a day. It's just I mean the seventies, you thought 741 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: about it all the time. Like I, Joe, I I 742 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: appreciate that we have lived in a period of energy abundance, 743 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: and we need to get back to a period of 744 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: energy abundance, which is I think what you're saying, and 745 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,479 Speaker 1: I think it goes to what Tracy is suggesting, which 746 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: is planning. It matters, and we need to plan right. 747 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: And that means that some of these coal plants may 748 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: have to run a little bit longer before they shut down, 749 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: so we have adequate excess capacity on the bread and 750 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: it means that we have to rapidly move to solar 751 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: and wind and nuclear power and geothermal and other things. Right. 752 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: But ultimately, when you think about how you actually solve 753 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: this problem, remember when we talked about it last time, 754 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: you can solve it a couple of ways. Right, When 755 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: you have an energy supercycle or a commodity supercycle, you 756 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: drill for more commodity, Right, you make more electrons. Fine, 757 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: you use the electrons we have more efficiently. Right. That's 758 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: a lot of what heat pumps and those kinds of 759 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,240 Speaker 1: things are, right. They use far less electricity and energy 760 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: than what they're replacing, right, And we don't do enough 761 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: of that. It's amazing to me how everyone always just 762 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: defaults to making more stuff, drilling more stuff, instead of 763 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: helping people use stuff more efficiently. And then the third 764 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,919 Speaker 1: one is you have to invest in the substitutes, which 765 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: is what my office is doing right We're scaling up 766 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: the substitutes, and we have these demonstration and deployment pathways 767 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: that we're writing across nuclear, across hydrogen, long duration energy storage, 768 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: and carbon management. And the reason we're doing that is 769 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: we're really writing down what is the step process that 770 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: we need to follow to scale up these technologies, to 771 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: trilling our scale so that Wall Street and everyone else 772 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: can follow what we're doing. But but I don't think 773 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: that we should say that we should you cut off 774 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: progress because there's bumps in the road during the transition. 775 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: So I have just one more devil's advocate question. And 776 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: you've spoken very elegantly about crowding in and scaling up 777 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: some of these technologies, encouraging Wall Street banks to get 778 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: interested that sort of thing. Does the risk of crowding 779 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: out investment, crowding out private investment, which is a classic 780 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: criticism of government financing for these types of projects. Does 781 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: the crowding out risk grow once you jump from you know, 782 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: a budget of thirty nine billion to something like three 783 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: fifty billion. Does it change along with that scale, we'll see, right, Like, 784 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 1: the folks I've talked to have assured me that we're 785 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: not crowding out the private sector. I would never want to. 786 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: In general, the the process of going to loan program 787 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,439 Speaker 1: Program's office is no picnic. I mean, we have made 788 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: it far more streamline than it was when I got here, 789 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: but it's still, you know, a pretty involved exercise. If 790 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: you could go to a commercial bank, I think you would, 791 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: so I don't think we're in that territory yet, but 792 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: it's something we have to watch portraits. I totally agree 793 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: with you, Well, I think this is going to be 794 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: one of the most sort of interesting I mean, it's 795 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: obviously there's a lot of money behind it, but I 796 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: think going to be one of the most interesting things 797 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: to watch over the next several years, and potentially a model. 798 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: You know, like people look at the Federal Reserve and 799 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: they're like their tools are very blunt, raised interest rates 800 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: and lower them in a way. You know, you are 801 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: now the head of a sort of like a real, 802 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: very large government policy bank that can direct capital in 803 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: certain ways, far more nimble than many of the other 804 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: operations that we have. So jigger Shop. Thank you so 805 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 1: much for coming back on so soon, and I think 806 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: everybody should be interested in what you do over the 807 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: next several years. Well, we really appreciate your interests. And honestly, 808 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: I think it's really more about the fact that these 809 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: projects have to come together. I can't make them come together. 810 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: They have to come together. So part of what we've 811 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: lost the knowledge around is how to bring these projects together, 812 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: and we're now bringing that back. Is super exciting, and 813 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: it does seem like one of those things like it's 814 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: easy thing to say. Like we years ago, we had 815 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: Bill Janeway, the former VC on the podcast and we 816 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: were talking about some of this stuff with energy tech 817 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: and the importance of unlike say consumer tech, of the 818 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: government providing some of these like backstops and de risking. 819 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: But it's one thing to say it, or it's one 820 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: thing to identify, yes, the government needs to have a role, 821 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: but the actual operationalize that and to do it well 822 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: and to do it in a cost effective manner and 823 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: in a timely manner with only a sort of limited 824 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: time seems like it's going to be a very interesting, 825 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: interesting challenge, that's for sure. We'll have to have you 826 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: back on, Jigger, and you can tell us how it's going. 827 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: Probably not, you know, in another two months this time, 828 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: but maybe in a year. Yeah, let's check back in 829 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: next September. I look forward to it. You know, I 830 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,919 Speaker 1: went to college with Neo cash Cary, so well, we'll 831 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: both have to have our annual uh. I love that. Yeah, 832 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: the annual tradition. Thank you so much, Jager, thanks for 833 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: coming back on. Ye, thank you. Take care Tracy. Obviously, 834 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,319 Speaker 1: I really like that conversation. I do think to that 835 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: last point, you know, again, it's one of these things 836 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: where it's easy to say, in the theory, Okay, we 837 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: can identify why an energy there is a specific role 838 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: for the government to play in taking on some of 839 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: these risks, back stopping this risk. But actually is that 840 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: How good is the government at it and how much 841 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: can its scale and make good loans that actually like 842 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: accelerate this crowding in effect and have a positive effect 843 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: on accelerating industries I think is a pretty big open question. Still, 844 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: I like the bit where Jigger said I've one should 845 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: do what I'm suggesting and think of the planning over 846 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: the grid mix. That was my favorite part. But I 847 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,879 Speaker 1: do think there is a tension there between. Like it 848 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: feels like a lot of these projects sort of I 849 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: don't know, they almost they happen, and they might make sense, 850 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, on a local basis or on a narrow basis, 851 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: but then when you look at them sort of holistically, 852 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 1: you start to spot more difficulties, right, or like more 853 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 1: issues with the mix, and I wonder, like who is 854 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: overseeing the whole thing? I mean, that's like that kind 855 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: of seems like the problem, right. And you know, one 856 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: of the things that also is being debated in DC 857 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: right now is the question of permitting reform, and a 858 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: lot of energy projects in general seemed to hinge on 859 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: the permitting process, which Jigger talked about, because you know, 860 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: you set up a solar farm or something, you know, 861 00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,480 Speaker 1: how many local authorities do you need to get? Like 862 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 1: there isn't anyone overseeing it, and so like probably in 863 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: the theory, if you had some sort of entity that 864 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: could say no, just just put up the land or 865 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: just put up the put up the photobol takes on 866 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: the land, it might be easier. But we don't have 867 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: that kind of system, and so we just have to 868 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: sort of keep going at it. It sounds like it's 869 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 1: like hard work, it's real work. Yeah. I mean that said, 870 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: like there are these issues and how do you actually 871 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: put them into place, and how do you overcome some 872 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,959 Speaker 1: of the permitting issues and things like that. But going 873 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: from thirty nine billion to billion dollars, I mean that 874 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: is a big step change. It's a huge change. And 875 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,239 Speaker 1: then to to his point, which I thought was really interesting, 876 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: just this idea of like rebuilding that relationship between the 877 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,800 Speaker 1: office and the Wall Street banks, or the idea that 878 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 1: the Wall Street banks would be familiar with the office 879 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,760 Speaker 1: and now that it has this much money, and obviously 880 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: we didn't really In the last time we spoke with Jigger, 881 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit more about his background in 882 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: the private sector at Sun Edison, Yeah, creating Sun Edison, 883 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: and so he has these connections, but like actually like 884 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: building up that network and bankers knowing to refer people 885 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 1: to the Department of Energy when it looks like there's 886 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: a project that would likely qualify for a loan, like 887 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: these are all sort of interesting things that will determine 888 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: whether this is successful or not. Yeah. I mean that's 889 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 1: also kind of why I asked the crowding out question 890 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,919 Speaker 1: as well, because if banks get too comfortable with here's 891 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 1: an energy project, let's just send it over to the 892 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: d OE. That could be problematic too, although in general, 893 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: I I do think that the government is like the 894 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: correct financier for a lot of this. And I do 895 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: think that was interesting too, about energy being unique and 896 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: they might have something special, something promising, but the timing 897 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,919 Speaker 1: is just not right, and so it's like the late 898 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 1: nineties like that was. You know, there was a lot 899 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 1: of excitement about clean energy in the late nineties two, 900 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: but oil and gas were really cheap. Sometimes wonder if 901 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,239 Speaker 1: the d OE should be taking equity stakes in some 902 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: of these companies. Yeah, I mean Tesla, they gave that 903 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: loan in they take an equity in Tesla, we'd have 904 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: a lot more money energy, that's true, if it were 905 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: it were set up so that they could recycle those profits. Yeah. Anyway, 906 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: it'd be good to get Chigger on once a year 907 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: in September, see how that's going, and then we could 908 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: do a walk through of all the loans he's approved. Yeah, 909 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: and the exciting new projects that you're seeing. Hopefully, all right, 910 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: shall we leave it there. Let's leave it there. This 911 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm 912 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,280 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy 913 00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,760 Speaker 1: Alloway and I'm Joe wi Isn't All. You can follow 914 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,799 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at The Stalwart. Follow our guest on 915 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: Twitter Jigger Shaw. He's at Jigger Shaw d C. Follow 916 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 1: our producer, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, and check out 917 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. 918 00:50:39,800 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening year