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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt, my name is

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you, You are here, and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. If you want to

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Speaker 1: be a part of the conversation as we delve into

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Speaker 1: today's rabbit hole, you don't have to wait till the

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Speaker 1: end of the show. You can just give us a

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Speaker 1: call directly and then you know, oh, push pause, give

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Speaker 1: us a call and then push play. Yeah, to make

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Speaker 1: sure your vehicle is not in motion and you're not driving,

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Speaker 1: or that you have one of those cool voice activated ones.

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Speaker 1: Definitely and where should they went there? Telephonic device fellas well?

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Speaker 1: You type in the numbers one, eight, three, three, st

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Speaker 1: d w y t K Yeah, give us a call

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Speaker 1: three minutes. Choose your time wisely and let us know

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Speaker 1: if you have something that you do not want to

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Speaker 1: end up on the air. Just please be explicit, you know,

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Speaker 1: you guys Here in Atlanta, I'm often taken in by

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Speaker 1: these fake rap songs that are on the radio that

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Speaker 1: are actually just advertisements for like one D you know

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Speaker 1: by gold or like an ambulance chaser type attorney. There's

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Speaker 1: a few of them that are really good. They're great,

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Speaker 1: and I always like find myself pop into him and

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Speaker 1: then I'm like, god, it got me again when they

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Speaker 1: dropped the call to action. You know, I like the

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Speaker 1: I I have no regrets. I like the ones have

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Speaker 1: six verses, and there are a few out there actually,

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Speaker 1: but you're like, I know this is an add but

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Speaker 1: it slaps. I know there's one call one hundred one

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Speaker 1: pain it a big one. My favorite is uh one

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Speaker 1: eight three three cars for kids five seven two four

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Speaker 1: five kids Boom airhorn. That's it. Yes. So we recently

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Speaker 1: did an episode diving into the strange story of closed cities.

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Speaker 1: These are places that in some cases did not or

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Speaker 1: do not officially exists. Many of them are radiated, and

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Speaker 1: many of them are Cold War relics located in Russia,

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Speaker 1: but not all of them. It's an interesting story and

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Speaker 1: it may hit close to home for some of our

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Speaker 1: fellow listeners. Today we're looking at something kind of related,

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Speaker 1: another sort of invisible place, a place where people officially disappear.

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Speaker 1: So here are the facts first prisons really starting on

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Speaker 1: an up note today, guys, prisons are an ugly fact

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Speaker 1: of every nation's existence. And if you have ever research

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Speaker 1: this or done some cursory bling in your time on

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Speaker 1: on the internet, you have found that some prisons, like

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Speaker 1: those in Norway, are held up as models of successful rehabilitation.

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Speaker 1: There there's a lot of good and bad press out

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Speaker 1: there about Norway's prisons. People who consider themselves hard on

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Speaker 1: crime will say that Norway is coddling criminals, and people

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Speaker 1: who consider themselves I don't know, maybe more progressive, or

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Speaker 1: people who have studied recidivism rates, will say that Norway

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Speaker 1: is enormously successful rehabilitating prisoners. And you know what, you

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Speaker 1: can't lie. You can pull up the pictures, you can

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Speaker 1: check out the prisons. They are very nice, considering that

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Speaker 1: their prisons they don't look like jails or prisons. And

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Speaker 1: some of the best attorneys in the world have come

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Speaker 1: out of Norwegian prisons where they got their degrees. I

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Speaker 1: did not know that well. Well, hanging out in bubble baths.

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Speaker 1: Well that's not true. Okay, sorry, I'm still back on

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Speaker 1: the lawyer rap tip. But you know, um, there's definitely

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Speaker 1: a broad spectrum of the types of activities and things

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Speaker 1: that go on in prisons. Norway possibly being the extreme

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Speaker 1: and the positive or you know, if you're hard on crime,

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Speaker 1: you can say in the negative, but focusing on getting

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Speaker 1: a person who's incarcerated back to existing and functioning within

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Speaker 1: normalized society, that's one extreme. That's one extreme. Then you

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Speaker 1: have places like South Africa where it's kind of just

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Speaker 1: all bets are off. I mean, they're absurdly notorious for

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Speaker 1: the types of horrible things that go on in there.

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Speaker 1: That's correct. The violence, the crime, and the corruption are

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Speaker 1: incredibly high. There is a triad of gangs that run

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Speaker 1: many of the prisons in South Africa. Believe the five

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Speaker 1: six is in the twenty seven's. They are much more

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Speaker 1: sinister than their names would lead you to believe. For instance,

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Speaker 1: one of the common punishments for someone who has broken

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Speaker 1: the codes or more as of the gang is for

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Speaker 1: someone to This is incredibly graphic, it may not be

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Speaker 1: suitable for all listeners. Is for someone to uh to

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Speaker 1: be wounded UH in their anus and then to be

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Speaker 1: assaulted by an HIV positive member of the gang. That

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Speaker 1: happens in South African prisons. In some cases, the prisoners

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Speaker 1: have almost as much power as the staff that technically

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Speaker 1: keeps an eye on them. So we have very very

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Speaker 1: very very very nice, sometimes called unfairly called i Kea

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Speaker 1: prisons in Norway, and then we have very very very

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Speaker 1: bad and dangerous places, and the US, depending on who

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Speaker 1: you ask, can fall somewhere in between. One thing that's

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Speaker 1: no secret is that there are a ton of prisons

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Speaker 1: and jails here in these United States. Yes, and you're

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Speaker 1: speaking about a ton of different places right very and

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Speaker 1: each each of those is its own ecosystem in lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. In the US, we have over seventeen hundred

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Speaker 1: state prisons, over a hundred federal prisons, and nine hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty two juvenile correctional facilities. But let's keep going here,

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Speaker 1: three thousand, two hundred and eighty three local jails and

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Speaker 1: seventy nine jails that are on um indigenous people's reservations.

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Speaker 1: And you might be saying to yourself, given the population

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Speaker 1: of our country, those numbers actually seem kind of low, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which means severe overcrowding in many of the nation's prisons.

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Speaker 1: Yet let's keep in mind this does not count military prisons,

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Speaker 1: immigration detention facilities, civil commitment centers, and prisons in the

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Speaker 1: many US territories. And that's not to say that the

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Speaker 1: kinds of things Ben, that you described taking place in

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Speaker 1: South African prisons don't happen in the United States. Largely

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Speaker 1: due to this overcrowding. UH. In New Mexico's State Penitentiary

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Speaker 1: in February of nineteen eighty, UM, prison inmates essentially took

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Speaker 1: over the facility and got a hold of what you

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Speaker 1: would call snitch files, where folks that were actually you know,

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Speaker 1: reporting on you know, illegal activity. Um, they end up

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Speaker 1: in these physical files in the prison warden's office, and

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Speaker 1: the folks that kind of took over the facility found

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Speaker 1: those single those people out and did things very much

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Speaker 1: in line with the kinds of tortures and punishments that

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Speaker 1: Ben was describing taking place in South Africa, involving genital

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Speaker 1: mutilation and you know, hanging from the rafters you know,

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Speaker 1: by um their necks and things like that, just absolute

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Speaker 1: unimaginable terror. And there has been a growing discrepancy between

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Speaker 1: the way that prisons in the US are depicted in

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Speaker 1: works of fiction, versus how day to day life is

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Speaker 1: for the inmates and the staff alike. The truth of

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Speaker 1: the matter is that conditions at these sites can vary widely,

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Speaker 1: sometimes due to issues of funding, and sometimes due to

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Speaker 1: the type of crimes a given inmate maybe found guilty of. Meeting.

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Speaker 1: For example, there are a lot of people who might

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Speaker 1: be in jail for a comparatively short amount of time,

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Speaker 1: and some some of our fellow listeners may have had

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Speaker 1: this experience at some point in their lives. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: you can also participate in work release programs. This means

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Speaker 1: that someone who's convicted of a crime and has jail

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Speaker 1: time to serve can serve that time on nights and

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Speaker 1: weekends such that they are able to hopefully maintain employment

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Speaker 1: while serving out their sentence, still be a part of

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Speaker 1: their local community, and hence be less likely to end

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Speaker 1: up back in jail. Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein UM did definitely

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Speaker 1: have an extreme version of a work release program and

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Speaker 1: uh check out episode three on Jeffrey Epstein. I think,

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Speaker 1: depending on audience interest, I think we need to do

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Speaker 1: an episode for just to look at j Lane Maxwell exclusively,

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Speaker 1: I would agree with you. So what about the other

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Speaker 1: extreme of prisons, what like, if that's the if the

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Speaker 1: Epstein's and the white collar criminals of the world go

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Speaker 1: to what has sometimes been described as camp fed. You

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Speaker 1: know what, what's the what's the other the other far

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Speaker 1: end of the spectrum? Here you're talking about super max

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Speaker 1: facilities and this is um, it's a it's a different

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Speaker 1: kind of torture. I think being alone for long long

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Speaker 1: periods of time. Uh, inmates in places that would be

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Speaker 1: considered super max facilities could be alone in solitary confinement

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Speaker 1: for a year more than a year years um and

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Speaker 1: then a lot of times when they're when they're experiencing

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, they will get some kind of

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Speaker 1: moment to themselves, basically an hour to be outside during

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Speaker 1: a single twenty four hour period. I'm not mistaken there

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Speaker 1: have been changes in the law surrounding confinement of solitary

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Speaker 1: isn't isn't it I mean a little bit more regular

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Speaker 1: than it used to be? Or is it still just

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Speaker 1: completely up to the discretion of prison officials, Because I

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Speaker 1: thought there were some human rights cases that sort of

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Speaker 1: prevented just Willy nilly shoving people in solitary and throwing

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Speaker 1: away the key. Uh. In two thousand and twelve, there

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Speaker 1: was a federal class action lawsuit against the Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Prisons and people who run the a d X shoe

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Speaker 1: or secure housing, security housing unit, it's the nice name

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Speaker 1: for these prisons. Uh. The case was dismissed, So now

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Speaker 1: I'm it's it's enormously controversial. The u N has condemned

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Speaker 1: the practice, but the the u N writes a lot

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Speaker 1: of condemnations without a lot of teeth behind them. And

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Speaker 1: super max is Uh, it's a prison within a prison.

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Speaker 1: And that thing that you're describing, matt where they get

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Speaker 1: outside time for an hour or whatever. It's pretty depressing

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Speaker 1: right there in a different cage outside. Yeah. So we

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Speaker 1: see this, We see this huge and this huge discrepancy

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Speaker 1: between some prisons or some detention facilities and another. But

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Speaker 1: one thing is not up for debate, going to a

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Speaker 1: point I believe you raised earlier. No, this doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like a ton of facilities, right, given that the population

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Speaker 1: of the United States is in the three millions. The

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Speaker 1: US prison population, however, the actual people incarcerated is huge.

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Speaker 1: There was a two thousand eighteen report from the Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Justice Statistics that found, okay, the numbers are a

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Speaker 1: little walking, right, but they found almost two point two

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Speaker 1: million people are caught up in the system, or as

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Speaker 1: many as almost two point three million people, and that

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Speaker 1: came from the end of two thousand sixteen. That means

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Speaker 1: if we adjust for the population of this country, we

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Speaker 1: find a disturbing statistic. For every one thousand people residing

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Speaker 1: in the United States, approximately six hundred and fifty five

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Speaker 1: are behind bars as we speak, for one reason or another.

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Speaker 1: But there's another way to think about it. We we

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Speaker 1: can get lost in these numbers, and I think of

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Speaker 1: proportion is a good way to to to slice the

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Speaker 1: pie or let you see the larger picture. But we

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Speaker 1: have a good analogy to our good comparison would be

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Speaker 1: a better way to say it. Yes, So, if the

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Speaker 1: population um currently in US prisons was the population of

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Speaker 1: one city, it would be a city larger than Dallas

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Speaker 1: or Philadelphia, which as we know, we're pretty pretty populous

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Speaker 1: metro areas. It would in fact be one of the

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Speaker 1: ten largest cities in these United States, just a little

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Speaker 1: smaller than Houston, UM and a little bigger than Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: Staggering numbers. It's also again even more disturbing when we

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Speaker 1: realize that these numbers do not count hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people currently held in those other facilities, the military prisons,

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Speaker 1: the prisons and US territories, the detainment centers for immigrants

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Speaker 1: and their children, the ones that are often much more

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Speaker 1: difficult to even find out what those populations look like.

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Speaker 1: That's true, But wait, Ben, what if there's even more

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Speaker 1: to this story? Surely you jest, No, I do not.

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Speaker 1: What if there are other facilities, not detainment centers, immigration centers,

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Speaker 1: not your standard military prison. What if there's a much

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Speaker 1: more secret place where people could be held and are held,

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Speaker 1: Facilities like those closed cities in the Cold War that

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Speaker 1: do not officially exist, right, places where the normal laws

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Speaker 1: do not apply, where it's talking no real trials, none

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Speaker 1: of the normal avenues for parole, probation and so on,

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Speaker 1: severe constraints on your rights as an individual. What if

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Speaker 1: there are places where, in a very real sense, people disappear.

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Speaker 1: What exactly are these so called black sites? And we'll

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Speaker 1: get to that right after a quick word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, it's true, this is

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Speaker 1: one of the things where we have a conclusive, concrete,

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Speaker 1: definitive answer black sites did and this is speculative, but

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Speaker 1: they probably do still exist almost certainly. Yeah, And to

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Speaker 1: really get a full picture of the development of this,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to zip back in time to that

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Speaker 1: fateful day on September eleventh, two tho one, when what

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Speaker 1: is officially recognized as a terrorist attack in New York

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Speaker 1: City and washing in DC call caused the Central Intelligence

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Speaker 1: Agency to um start to think outside the box, outside

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Speaker 1: the existing prison boxes, military situations that were already in place,

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Speaker 1: and to really go further um and create an entire

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Speaker 1: new network of facilities. I would say they're looking outside

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Speaker 1: of that system, as well as the judicial system in general, UM,

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Speaker 1: as well as maybe even oversight from the United Nations.

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Speaker 1: And it takes one of these. It takes something as

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Speaker 1: you know, life changing, as earth chattering politically and just

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Speaker 1: in terms of like day to day existence as September

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Speaker 1: eleven to really cause this kind of sea change where

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, um, the ends justify the means

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Speaker 1: is sort of the order of the day. Right. The

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Speaker 1: idea here is something that we've we've encountered in previous

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Speaker 1: arguments for torture, which is the ticking time bomb scenario.

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Speaker 1: You have an individual that you cannot legally arrest, but

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Speaker 1: this individual has knowledge they could help you prevent another

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Speaker 1: huge disaster. So you do what's called an extraordinary rendition.

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Speaker 1: We move beyond the law. You take them someplace where

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Speaker 1: the law does not fully apply. The CIA started looking

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Speaker 1: for outside facilities where they could do this. They could

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Speaker 1: detain and interrogate people they believed it's a very important

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Speaker 1: distinction people they believed to be high level Al Qaeda suspects.

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Speaker 1: These secret prisons, known as black sites, were used by

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Speaker 1: the CIA to interrogate the folks they thought were terrorists,

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Speaker 1: often using um what are called enhanced interrogation by some

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Speaker 1: what are called torture techniques by others to obtain intelligence.

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Speaker 1: And we know that this program began mere days after

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Speaker 1: the events of September eleven. I mean, you want to

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Speaker 1: dive into the history, Yeah, we should and can do that,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna do that with the help of a

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Speaker 1: u N report that was officially titled Report of the

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Speaker 1: Special Report Tour on the Promotion and Protection of Human

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Speaker 1: Rights and Fundamental Freedoms while Countering Terrorism by Ben Emerson. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they put that's the uh, that's the guy right in

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Speaker 1: the report. This is where they write names like this

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Speaker 1: because people have already like tuned out by the time

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Speaker 1: they get to special reperture and they're certainly not going

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Speaker 1: to read the actual reporter. We will um, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna give you a little exert here that I think

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll maybe do this round robin style. UM. On

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Speaker 1: seventeen September two thousand one, President Bush authorized the CIA

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Speaker 1: to operate a secret detention program. It's always written by

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Speaker 1: a brick because he's spelled program p R O g

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Speaker 1: R A M M E. That's the way. That's the

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Speaker 1: type of English the UN uses that right, Interesting, that

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Speaker 1: makes sense, okay. A secret detention program which involved the

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Speaker 1: establishment of clandestine detention facilities known as quote black sites

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Speaker 1: end quote on the territory of other states, with the

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Speaker 1: collaboration of public officials in those states, and just to

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Speaker 1: continue the quote here. At about the same time, he

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush allegedly authorized the CIA to carry out

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Speaker 1: extraordinary renditions, the secret transfers of prisoners outside any lawful

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Speaker 1: process of extradition or expulsion, enabling them to be interrogated

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Speaker 1: whilst in the formal custody of the public officials of

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Speaker 1: other states, including states with a record of using torture.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning of August two thousand to the Justice

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Speaker 1: Department's Office of Legal Counsel purported to authorize a range

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Speaker 1: of physical and mental abuse of terrorists suspects known as

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Speaker 1: enhanced interrogation techniques. So that's that's the end of the quote.

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Speaker 1: And that's a pretty pretty easy summation there. Now, people

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Speaker 1: who support the existence of black sites and the activities

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Speaker 1: that took place within these sites will insert a thousand

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Speaker 1: footnotes into that single paragraph, right and we will give

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Speaker 1: those We will give those opponents of this right up there.

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Speaker 1: Do However, everything in that paragraph is factual, that all

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Speaker 1: actually happened. It has been vetted. We can look at

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Speaker 1: examples of what black sites actually are. This iteration of

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Speaker 1: black sites. The first one was built in Thailand. It

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Speaker 1: was built shortly after the September eleventh attacks. That is

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Speaker 1: just surprising to to hear I think of thinking of

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Speaker 1: Thailand as being the first place. Well, Thailand is not

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Speaker 1: a place that pops up on the map in a

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Speaker 1: lot of areas. So for instance, if you suspected the

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Speaker 1: CIA to do something like this, one would naturally and

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Speaker 1: rightfully imagine that they would have a site that was

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Speaker 1: closer to the fracas, right, but this is Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 1: probably sure, Yeah, I mean they would probably just rent

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Speaker 1: of the one Saudi Arabia already has. And this is

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Speaker 1: all done with full cooperation from these various governments, that

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Speaker 1: is correct. Yeah, So wonder what that negotiations like. Is

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Speaker 1: it calling in a favor, is it saying like, how

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Speaker 1: can we do this together and make it mutually agreeable?

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Speaker 1: Or is it basically just saying like, this is what's happening.

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Speaker 1: We will withhold aid from you if you don't help

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Speaker 1: us out. I'm wondering, I respect you. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a later on we'll get to an example from

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Speaker 1: Poland that has a good blow by blow of how

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Speaker 1: this happens. But I suspect it is a case by

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Speaker 1: case basis. You know, this is very much a situation

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Speaker 1: in which U. S. Intelligence is building the car while

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Speaker 1: they're driving the car, you know what I mean. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: back to Thailand, the American officers, they are repeatedly water

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Speaker 1: boarded at least two detainees. This was part of those

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Speaker 1: interrogation techniques that the rest of the world, by the way,

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Speaker 1: would later call torture. So waterboarding, for anyone who as

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Speaker 1: an experience that may sound relatively tame at first, it's

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Speaker 1: a simulation of the experience of drowning. So to anybody

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Speaker 1: who has been in danger of drowning ever knows that

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Speaker 1: it is not a pleasant way to go. What happens.

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Speaker 1: And there are you know, there are training courses where

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Speaker 1: people who will later use those techniques have to experience

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Speaker 1: it for themselves because you need to know at what

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Speaker 1: point to stop. But here's what happens. You are you

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Speaker 1: take the victim and you have a rag over their

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Speaker 1: mouth and their nose important, and then you just continually

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Speaker 1: pour a steady, consistent amount of water into their mouth

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Speaker 1: and nose through the rag while they're laying back or

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Speaker 1: sometimes even at a lower angle than while their feet

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Speaker 1: are elevated above their head. Yeah, and you know, usually

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Speaker 1: on like a plank. Right. And while that sounds tame

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Speaker 1: because you could say, well, they're not beating the snot

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Speaker 1: out of people. They're not breaking fingers or collecting finger

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Speaker 1: nails or teeth or whatever. This this is a incredibly

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Speaker 1: from experience, this is an incredibly unpleasant thing. I was

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Speaker 1: not water boarder by government agency, but it is an

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Speaker 1: extremely unpleasant experience, and more importantly, it is one that

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Speaker 1: can be repeated at nauseums. You can keep drowning people,

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Speaker 1: bringing them back, asking them to confess to something, and

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Speaker 1: then just almost drowning them again. It's like death simulation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know the things that kick in situations

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Speaker 1: like that are terror and anxiety and panic and and

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Speaker 1: just utter, you know, like not feeling safe in any way.

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Speaker 1: I think you hit it right on the head when

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Speaker 1: when you use the t word terror being inflicted then

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Speaker 1: on someone you know, perhaps suspected of being a terrorist,

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Speaker 1: because you know, it's it's exactly what you're saying. You're

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Speaker 1: simulating drowning, right, but it's it's it's like the most

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Speaker 1: advanced flight simulator that's ever existed, if you're thinking about

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Speaker 1: it as a one to one to flying or to drowning,

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Speaker 1: because your body experiences and then you know this exactly physically,

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Speaker 1: exactly what it would do if it were drowning. Now

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Speaker 1: I need as a bucket in a rag table. It's

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Speaker 1: also sometimes called dry drowning, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: more sinister phrase there. It can cause some serious physical damage,

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Speaker 1: even if a person does not die while this is happening.

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Speaker 1: And to to be fair on the side of people

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Speaker 1: who support this interrogation technique, it is it is described

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Speaker 1: as something that the people administering it have received extensive

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Speaker 1: training and such that they're not going to accidentally keep

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Speaker 1: someone asphyxiated for too long. All in all, there were

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Speaker 1: ten CIA prisoners that we know of who were arrested

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Speaker 1: or held on the soil of Thailand before being transferred

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Speaker 1: to Guantanamo Bay, which we all knew would show up

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Speaker 1: at least partially in this episode. Guantanamo Bay is is

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Speaker 1: located on the island of Cuba, and these folks were

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Speaker 1: transferred without any kind of due process or hearing. That's

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Speaker 1: according to a report by the Open Society Justice Initiative

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Speaker 1: from two thousand thirteen. Funny story about this, It is

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Speaker 1: the worst kept secret in Thailand. There There have been

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Speaker 1: successive members of the Thai government in the military in

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Speaker 1: the years following this, and one thing they all have

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Speaker 1: in common, as they have all denied that this ever happened,

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Speaker 1: that there was a black site. It's all a big misunderstanding.

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Speaker 1: These are not the droids you're looking for. These prisons,

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Speaker 1: we're not just in Thailand. They were initially located in

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Speaker 1: at least eight different countries. They were classified, and they

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Speaker 1: were so classified that information on each one was known

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Speaker 1: only to the President, a few other US officials, and

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Speaker 1: the people doing the dirty work. And you know, there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of problems pretty obviously on the on

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Speaker 1: the face of these kinds of things, but I would

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Speaker 1: have seen that country well yeah, um, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of these problems started to show up pretty quickly after

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Speaker 1: there these sites were established. Yeah, at least twenty six

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Speaker 1: people were held due to cases of mistaken identity. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's there are a couple of great documentaries around surrounding this,

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Speaker 1: something about the taxi. I can't remember the name of it,

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Speaker 1: but there's a fantastic documentary that came out in the

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Speaker 1: mid two thousand's about a taxi driver that just ended

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Speaker 1: up at Quetanabo. Crazy. That's the thing. If you're there

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Speaker 1: due to a case of mistaken identity and you have

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Speaker 1: no recourse to getting you know, your case heard and

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Speaker 1: proving that you're not this person, at that point, you

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Speaker 1: just become like collateral damage of this system and you're

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Speaker 1: just stuck, like, what what do you do? It's it.

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Speaker 1: It gives me a panic attacks thinking about it. Also,

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Speaker 1: add to that the language barrier. You know, these uh

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Speaker 1: many of these interrogators would have a translator of some sort,

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Speaker 1: but the interrogators themselves were often not fluent in the

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Speaker 1: language spoken by the people being detained. So yes, at

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Speaker 1: least twenty six people, at least twenty six people were

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Speaker 1: totally not supposed to be their their name just sounded similar,

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Speaker 1: or there was a vague description, or they were turned

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Speaker 1: over when reporting suspected terrorists became incentivized, which is a

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Speaker 1: different problem. Second thing that cropped up almost immediately the

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Speaker 1: c i A. It's caught lying to Uncle Sam along

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Speaker 1: with some other members of the CIA who had a

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Speaker 1: problem with this, because again, although it's tempting and it's

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Speaker 1: easy and cognitively delicious to think these are monolithic entities,

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Speaker 1: they are not. There are people within their wheels, within wheels,

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Speaker 1: there are people competing for the same positions. There's a

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Speaker 1: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

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Speaker 1: Kind of situation that crops up, and that's what compartmentalized

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Speaker 1: intelligence is all about so. According to The Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: in at least one case, an internal CIA memo relays

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Speaker 1: instructions from the White House to keep the program secret

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Speaker 1: from the Secretary of State. The guy whose job is

431
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: literally to know what's going on here. That was then

432
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,239
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Colin Powell, and they wanted to keep

433
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: it a secret from him out of concern that he

434
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: would quote blow his stack if he were to be

435
00:27:53,600 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: briefed on what's going on. Wow. Wow, the guy that was, uh,

436
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, giving a hearing in Congress showing the yellow cake.

437
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: He's the guy who you're like, yeah, we can't let

438
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: him know about this. He got misled several times, Yes,

439
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: he did in his career. So of a hundred nineteen

440
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: known suspects who were held, thirty nine of them were

441
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: um subjected to this were this story is full of

442
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: these absurd terms, sort of these sanitized versions of the

443
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: same idea enhanced interrogation. Was that a chainey thing? That

444
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: was a chainey thing? I feel like the I think

445
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: it was the lawyer who his name escaped you Yeah, no, yeah,

446
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: not you? Why oh yes? Yeah. The thing is these uh,

447
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: these these are like any other buzzwords often the original

448
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: author of the buzzword is he's not going to be

449
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: super jazzed about it. Yeah, no, it's true. Um, but

450
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: these techniques referred to pretty controversially as enhanced interrogation, were used,

451
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: and we'll get into more on that and just a bit.

452
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: But some of these things included, um, being slapped and uh,

453
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: this concept of walling, which is new to me, and

454
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: that's when people were slammed against walls, along with of

455
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: course water boarding and sleep deprivation. And you know, we

456
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: we've seen some of these photos with the forced nunity

457
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: from the Abu Grade prison where folks are forced to

458
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: stand on buckets for extended periods of time with like

459
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: bags over their heads and the completely stripped naked. Um,

460
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: it's just a lot of it comes down to humiliation

461
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and at times, these this stuff included

462
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: even more egregious acts. There were incidents of physical abuse,

463
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, threat I believe the photos you're referring to

464
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: specifically feature people being threatened with military dogs. The thing

465
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: about these techniques is they were chosen on purpose because

466
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: they could be applied repeatedly for days or weeks at

467
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: a stretch. And I just want to confirm off air.

468
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: We we checked back to this to make sure that

469
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: we were correct. It was John you John tune you Uh,

470
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: an attorney, law professor, former government official. He was the

471
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: author of the so called torture Memos, in which the

472
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: phrase enhanced interrogation, as you might assume, shows up quide often.

473
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: Seven of the people subjected to these techniques produced no

474
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: intelligence whatsoever. What do we mean when we say they

475
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: produced no intelligence whatsoever? We mean that they didn't even

476
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: produce incorrect intelligence. They didn't even panic and say, well,

477
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: maybe that guy I went to college with, maybe maybe

478
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: he's the one you're looking for. Or yeah, I'll say

479
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: anything you want me to, just please stop drowning me.

480
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: And at least three were confirmed to be subjected to waterboarding.

481
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: We know about the two in Thailand. There's one other,

482
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: but there are many, many more reports. A little bit

483
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: earlier in the show, we mentioned that we had a

484
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: a specific example that gives us a look at the

485
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: money and the operation in the blow by blow, day

486
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: by day operation involved let's pause for word from our

487
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: sponsor and then let's travel to Poland. Okay, so we're

488
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: back and we are now in Poland. You probably didn't

489
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: expect to head that way episode. No one expects to

490
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: go to Poland, I know, except for um the Germany

491
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: went there one time, if I recall, yeah, yeah, I

492
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: mean nowadays, no one expects to go to Poland. Yeah,

493
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: but it is interesting that we ended up there with

494
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: one of these black sites. It was one of the

495
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: first and one of the probably the most important europe

496
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: European black site. It was. It was there in Poland.

497
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: The CIA made a fifteen million dollar deal with their

498
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies, their intelligence structure there to build the site,

499
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: and they called it Courts, or at least they referred

500
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: to it as Courts q U A r t Z. Yes.

501
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: The accommodations at Courts were not on the level of

502
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: a Norwegian prison. Instead, they they could only hold a

503
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: handful of detainees. There was very, very sparse accommodation. There

504
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: was a shed behind the house that was also converted

505
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: to a cell. Now, if this sounds a little bit clandestine,

506
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: it's because it was, you know, with the biggest the

507
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: biggest task or obstacle in front of the Polish and

508
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: American authorities was to make sure that this remained the

509
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: stuff They don't want you to know very much. They

510
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: wanted people to think this was just a villa, right

511
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: and if someone were to look, say via satellite, and

512
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: wanted to be too obvious that this was an illegal

513
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: jail prison to archer chamber that did not officially exist.

514
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: There was one room where detainees could ride a stationary

515
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: bike or use the treadmill if they cooperated. We do

516
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: know that despite the problems, despite the injustices evolved, the

517
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: system kept growing. It went global, it became an international franchise.

518
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: At least fifty prisons have been used to hold detainees

519
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: in over twenty well in twenty eight countries, and that's

520
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: in addition to twenty five more prisons in Afghanistan, twenty

521
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: in Iraq. UH. There's also there's also this story in

522
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: this room or in this allegation of floating prisons, which

523
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: I thought was incredibly devious and brutally clever. And it's

524
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: estimated that the US had seventeen of those UH starting

525
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: from two thousand one, which brings the total estimated number

526
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: of prisons operated by the US and our allies UM

527
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: in order to house alleged terrorists since the thousand one

528
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: two more than one hundred and other countries that held

529
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: suspects on behalf of the U s included I'm I'm

530
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: gonna caution, let's try not to do the Animaniac. Yeah,

531
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: it's a lot. You got Algeria, now you can't do

532
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: um Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, uh Did, Jibouti, Jibouti. Yes, that's

533
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: a Thesa, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gambia, Israel, Jordan, Kenya, Kosovo, Libya, Lithuania, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan,

534
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: uh Poland, Qatar, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Somalia, South Africa, Thailand,

535
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: United Kingdom, Uzbekistan, Yemen, and Zambia, and according to the

536
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: Human Rights Watch, the US held detainees from many different

537
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: countries around the world, twenty one in all, including some

538
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: that will be easily recognizable and something that might be

539
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: a little bit surprising, so detainees from Algeria, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq,

540
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: Gaza in the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, or Mon,

541
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Sweeten, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, the UK,

542
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: and Yemen, including a guy named Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the

543
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, the quote mastermind of nine eleven. Um outside

544
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: of Osama bin Laden of course, um. But he was

545
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: held in that Poland spot for quite a while there

546
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: where he was waterboarded and all the he was enhanced,

547
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: lee interrogated. Then he was moved several times to different places.

548
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: But it's interesting too to think that someone of such

549
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: a considered to be such a high level target would

550
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: be kept in that two story villa in Poland, just

551
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: hidden somewhere. Yeah, I'm sure the the security was, I'm

552
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: sure it was robust, but it wasn't enough. In several

553
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: of these black sites, the detainees were you know, they

554
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 1: they have been tortured for whatever information they were perceived

555
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: to have, and then they were shipped to a place

556
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: that was deemed more secure or at least marginally more

557
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: legal than That is where Guantanamo Bay comes into play.

558
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: Guantanamo or get Mo, as it's been called before, is

559
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: not exactly the same as a black site because it

560
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: was not purposefully built for secret detention in the wake

561
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: of nine eleven. Guantanamo Bay as a US possession has

562
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: been around for a long time, and it has a

563
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: It has a strange history because Guantana it's on Guantanamo

564
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: Bay Naval Base, right and and and it's been there

565
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: in some form since nineteen o three. So even when

566
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: the US and Cuba have very antagonistic relationships or you know, interactions,

567
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay is still around and has stood the test

568
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: of time. So it does have this in common with

569
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 1: black sites. Detainees from these secret sites were sent to

570
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: Guantanamo obey and they were also subjected to enhanced interrogation

571
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: techniques there with some real, uh some real psychologically disturbing

572
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: torture as well. They tried to get into not just

573
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: physically threatened people, but also get into their heads and

574
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: uh humiliate them. Yeah. There's a twenty two five report

575
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: that was presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee, I

576
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: guess um, and it detailed the interrogation of one man

577
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: who was considered the twentieth hijacker in the nine eleven attacks.

578
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: His name was Mohammed al Katani. Might remember his name

579
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: from news reports over the years. Um. He was supposedly

580
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: forced to wear a bra to dance with a man

581
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: and do what we're called dog tricks while tied to

582
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: a leash, sit laid down so very much. Uh, just

583
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: breaking him down essentially psychologically. But but but military investigators

584
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: said this was not considered something that was prohibited um

585
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: so in and they did not consider it inhumane treatment either.

586
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: I gotta wonder, like, do you think there's a committee

587
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: that comes up with this stuff or is it just

588
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: sort of like improv or do you mean the torture

589
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: like that that's so specific? You know, it's like like

590
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: like do you think it was like the guards are

591
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: like the interrogators that's come up with this or is

592
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: there somebody higher level like committee or board that comes

593
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: up with quote unquote acceptable humane form Because obviously waterboardings

594
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: a go to because it's not going to kill them. Uh,

595
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: it's considered maybe less problematic than like attaching electrodes to

596
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: somebody in a car battery, you know, but like it's

597
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: definitely still pretty rough. But I'm wondering, like where do

598
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: these go to tortures come from? Like we definitely not improvised, Yeah,

599
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think so either, But I'm wondering where,

600
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: like if there's a committee that there's specific job is

601
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: to come up with this stuff in some you know,

602
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: dark and room, well a lot of these techniques have

603
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: stood the test of time. It's not for nothing that

604
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: people decide to pursue the similar UH techniques of physical

605
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: or mental stress. I would I would draw everyone's attention

606
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: to earlier published memos and pamphlets from the CIA in

607
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: UH that were put out in South American countries, in

608
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: Central American countries that were meant to educate people on

609
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: how to be insurgents and meant to give you some

610
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: information about how to torture someone without killing them, because

611
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: the thing is you want to get them right to

612
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: the line, right. UH. There are some things that are

613
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: so messed up they sound like they occur in fiction,

614
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: but there are real cases. For instance, if you read

615
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: some of this stuff where someone who is going to

616
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: torture a detainee right will say whether for this government

617
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: or another government, they'll they'll walk in and they'll be

618
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: your friend on a chat with you. Make sure you're hungry,

619
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: you need anything, you like sprite. I heard your expect

620
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: Let's get this guy sprite. And then they'll have a

621
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: conversation like, Okay, look there's some stuff that we think

622
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: you know. We know you know it, and we want

623
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: you to tell us, but to me. It doesn't matter

624
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: what you say. You and I are going to be

625
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: quite close check this out. And then when they say

626
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: check this out, they will harm themselves in front of

627
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: the person, you know, like cut their arm such that

628
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: bleeds copiously, but not you know, lethally, not a north

629
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: to south kind of cut, just like flu vertical cut

630
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: like that with their arm hanging out of kimbo. And

631
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: then they'll hold it there and like, I just did

632
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: this to myself, What do you think I'm going to

633
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: do to you? That kind of stuff. You're not physically

634
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: hurting the person, but you're in your their head and

635
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: that thing. While it sounds like complete malarkey written by

636
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: a screenwriter somewhere, that has happened before, and people do

637
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: that because it works. So all this stuff and answer

638
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: to your question is not is largely not improvised. Yeah,

639
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: And it's also one of these things where it's like,

640
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: to the subject being on the receiving end of said torture,

641
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: they're like, go back to being nice again, whatever I

642
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: whatever I have to do to get you back to

643
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: where you were, where you were giving me a sprite,

644
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, and being my friend. But I'll do that,

645
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: you know, it. Literally, it's like you're you're showing this juxtaposition.

646
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: You're like you're baiting and switching, and then you're like

647
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: whatever it takes to get back to that first version

648
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: of you. You know. So let's jump back here in time.

649
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: We're we were talking about that two thousand five report

650
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: they went to the Senate Armed Services Committee, and then

651
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: the next year, in September of two thousand six, UH,

652
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: the president at the time, George W. Bush, acknowledged that

653
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: the CIA had indeed held suspected terrorists in these places,

654
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: these secret prisons overseas in different countries. He also announced

655
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: the transfer of fourteen specific captured al Qaeda operatives. Again,

656
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: like you're just kind of he's just announcing this to

657
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: the public. We just say, okay, those must be al

658
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: Qaeda operatives, But he's saying fourteen captured al Qaida operatives

659
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: who are being transferred, including Mohammed bin al shib and

660
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: Abu Zubayah to to Guantanamo Bay. So two thousand six,

661
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: UH is when the President of the United States says, yes, indeed,

662
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: we are keeping people in secret places and we're shipping

663
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: people now to get and there's been a lot of

664
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: work leading up to this as well. There's some fantastic,

665
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: i would say, heroic journalists such as Dana Priest, who

666
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: did a lot of work for the Washington Post on

667
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: this subject. So when it was confirmed by the then president,

668
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: it was already something that was widely suspected or even

669
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: already considered to be true by people. A little more

670
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: on the fringes of the national and international conversation. Let's

671
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: fast forward. As you may know, neither the naval base

672
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: nor the detention center are closed. Last year January, President

673
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: Donald Trump signed an executive order to keep the detention

674
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: center open and also to approve the transfer potential new

675
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: prisoners to the site. So not only is it not closed,

676
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: it might actually grow. There was a well, there having

677
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: a series of legal challenges to this because these people

678
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: are often you know, they're not experiencing due process. Uh.

679
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: There have been people who have been held for years

680
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: and turned out that they were completely the wrong person. Right.

681
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: In June of this year, the Supreme Court of the

682
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: US rejected a challenge to the indefinite detention of guantanam

683
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: obeyed detainees who have yet to be charged. Imagine being

684
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: detained indefinitely no charges brought against you for almost twenty years.

685
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: Twenty years, that's how that's how long ago this was.

686
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: Now it's basically saying we have enough evidence, like this

687
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: is what you have to imagine the authorities saying to you,

688
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: as the individual, we feel as though we have enough

689
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: evidence to convince us that you were definitely and a

690
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: heinous person who has done heinous things or is plenty

691
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: of heinous things, but we don't have enough evidence to

692
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, take you to trial anywhere, or we don't

693
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: have a place in which we can try you for

694
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: these crimes. It reminds me of the way they used

695
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: to be able to, like, you know, a king back

696
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: in the dark ages could just throw somebody in the dungeon,

697
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, and throw away the key, with no trial,

698
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: no due process, and they wouldn't even have known what

699
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: they have done. You know, I think of the abuses

700
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: that that are likely inherent in this system. You know,

701
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: people with a grudge of people where someone maybe has

702
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: some dirt who knows. I mean, I'm you know, I mean,

703
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: I think it's certain. What I'm saying is when you leave,

704
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: when you lack accountability, um corruption tends to run free. Well,

705
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: and the other thing is just how how human beings,

706
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: through the legal ease and the manipulation of the law

707
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: are are categorized. Right. We we've talked about this before

708
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: on this show. But the concept of I believe it

709
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: was during the Barack Obama's presidency where I think it

710
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: was it was under his watch where males of a

711
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: fighting age in any country where the United States is

712
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: engaged militarily are considered an enemy combatants. Right. Yeah, Um,

713
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: that means if you're within that age range and you

714
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: are a male, then you could just be at a

715
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: black side. The assumption is right, This is this is

716
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: fascinating in a in a terrible, terrible way. We do

717
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: have to also again, and to be fair, we have

718
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: to point out that the cause some of these people

719
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: were victims of mistaken identity, because some of these people

720
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: were accused of crimes that they did not commit. It

721
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: does not mean that everyone there was innocent, absolutely right,

722
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: That's why it's so difficult. Right. And of the fifty

723
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: four countries that the Open Society that we mentioned at

724
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: the top of the show, the fifty four countries that

725
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: Open Society confirmed as having captured, held, question, tortured, or

726
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: helped transport these detainees for the CIA, Fewer than half

727
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: of them have opened any kind of domestic inquiry or

728
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: had any court cases challenging their involvement. Means, in a

729
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: very real sense, the stuff continues to officially not exist.

730
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: But here is the ultimate question. Did these black sites

731
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: and the interrogations performed within actually produce results? Plot twist

732
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: spoiler alert. The CIA believes so. In case that was

733
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: a big Shamalan moment for anyone, Yeah, they, I mean,

734
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: they almost kind of have to believe so. And we

735
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: have a here from the CIA Director John Brennan, or

736
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: at the time CIA Director John Brennan. UM. He gave

737
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: this official statement. Our review indicates that interrogations of detainees

738
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: on whom enhanced interrogation techniques were used, did produce intelligence

739
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and save lives.

740
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: The intelligence gained from the program with critical to our

741
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: understanding of al Qaeda and continues to inform our counter

742
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: terrorism efforts to this day. Um Congress, this is out

743
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: of the quote. On the other hand, did did not

744
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: agree right right? So for uh, many of us listening,

745
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: or at least a few of us listening, this feels

746
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: like an ugly, ugly reality, you know what I mean.

747
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: War is brutal thing. And when we are when we're

748
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: in that hypothetical situation where doing something abominable to one

749
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: person may save hundreds of thousands, very close to that

750
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: needs of the many out number the needs of the few,

751
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: kind of cold logic argument. Right, what if those numbers

752
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: are just torture or do terrible things to one person

753
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: and save ten, Right, even then the ratio still holds.

754
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: Your say, you're you're creating more net good by doing

755
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: a little bit of evil. And the problem with that

756
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: kind of experiment is that it is very very rare

757
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: for someone to know with certitude that their activities prevented

758
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: a disaster or a catastrophe, because by preventing it, it's

759
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: never happened, you know what I mean. It's kind of

760
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: like the psychic prediction problem, whereas someone says, oh, I

761
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: have a premonition, Paul, mission control, decond do not take uh,

762
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: do not take your car to I don't know, and

763
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: to a trip on Thanksgiving or something, because there will

764
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: be an accident. So maybe they just go a different

765
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: route and nothing happens. You know what, I mean, or

766
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: take a flight, or take a flight and nothing happens.

767
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: So amongst the people who disagreed with that stance, amongst

768
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: the people who disagreed with the CIA's pro interrogation, pro

769
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: black site stance were members of Congress. Actually just Congress

770
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: disagree because one thing Congress used to really have a

771
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: problem with was being lied to in their December nine report,

772
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: which was called the Committee Study of the Central Intelligence

773
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: Agency's Detention and Interrogation Program. Again you have to love

774
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: the sexy titles. Uh, they found twenty different findings that

775
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: were published wherein they took the CIA to task. They

776
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: deemed the activities the legal. They said, he this doesn't work,

777
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: b stop lyne and and it went on and on.

778
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: The weird thing about the report is that it is

779
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: six thousand pages long. Five and twenty five of those

780
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: pages were declassified, along with an executive summary, which is

781
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: where most people got the facts. Right now, we do

782
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: have an answer to the the original question. We do

783
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: know the black sites did exist. They were highly illegal.

784
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: Despite the arguments made in court right and despite the

785
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 1: clear illegality as espoused by members of the legislative branch,

786
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: it appears the judicial branch of this government is stonewalling

787
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 1: at different turns, right, and they're saying, well, again, it's ugly.

788
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: It's a special case. We have to protect the many,

789
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: and we don't know if there are other black sites

790
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: out there. It feels like one of those terrible dark

791
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: truths ugly secrets that almost it's so weird because on

792
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: this end, you know, as American citizens sitting in this room,

793
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: in the privilege that we have just by existing in

794
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: this country, Um, it feels in this really messed up

795
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: way good to know that this kind of thing is

796
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: out there to ostensibly protect us here in this country. Right.

797
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: I think we have to acknowledge that there's like a

798
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: there's a weird sense of like, okay, well, at least

799
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: at least it's our my people, our people, our side,

800
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: the good guys doing this thing. Right. Um, those are

801
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: all like subjective terms to to put on the American authorities.

802
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: But I I wonder what that feels like, what it

803
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: truly feels like inside from let's say a Polish citizen

804
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: who finds out that there was a black side in

805
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 1: their country where this kind of thing is being carried

806
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: out on their soils. Well, I guess that all depends

807
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: on how much benefit they feel like getting from their

808
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: relationship with the United States, which varies from country to country,

809
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: and then those arrangements, right, I don't know like that,

810
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: like like the whole thing with Trump supposedly withholding aid

811
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: from Ukraine in that situation, Ukraine really needed that aid.

812
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: So there's a quid pro quote. I mean, not to

813
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: throw around the buzz term of the moment, but there

814
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: is an absolute benefit as a country where you say, oh, okay,

815
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,240
Speaker 1: the US is giving us this military aid. Therefore maybe

816
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: we'll turn the other cheek or you know, well we'll

817
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: turn the other way if we think they're doing some

818
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: nefarious stuff on our turf because we feel like they're

819
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: actually actively helping us and having better lives. Sure, I

820
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,439
Speaker 1: don't think you could. I don't think you could occur

821
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: without some kind of pretty heavy incentive like that. It's

822
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: just to your point that you're thinking, like, how the

823
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: average citizen, how do they feel about it? Well, yeah,

824
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 1: I mean you're talking. I mean, we we listed off

825
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: the number of places where these black sites existed in

826
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: In a lot of them, you can imagine the citizens

827
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: of those countries being at risk of ending up and

828
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: you know, and it's a it would be a very

829
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 1: small proportion of the citizens on almost not making you know,

830
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't wouldn't even be a blip on on a calculator.

831
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: It's just, um, I don't know. To me, I'm interested

832
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: in the mindset of just somebody knowing that's happening, because

833
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: it's very it feels even though even though sitting in

834
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: this room as an American citizen kind of feels not okay,

835
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: but like I'm not scared about it, oh right, because

836
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: you probably won't get black backed for now, for now. Yeah,

837
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's a very good point because we

838
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: know in our previous episode it is completely possible for

839
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: people to lose or hide entire cities with populations of thousands.

840
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: So having a small area where you have a handful

841
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: or at the most hundreds of detainees who have been disappeared,

842
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: it's oh disturbingly plausible that that could happen, could be

843
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 1: happening now, and it would be no proof and maybe

844
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 1: the people who live in the next town or village

845
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: over just have have been have been given to understand

846
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: that no one goes near the old dairy factory. You

847
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: know what I mean, that's all it takes. It's all

848
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: it takes. And this this leads us to the question

849
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: that we cannot really answer. Will this happen in the future.

850
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: Have these black sites actually closed or have they just

851
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: moved further from the public eye. If that is the case,

852
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: then these locations remain the stuff they don't want you

853
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: to know. This ends our episode, but not our show. Yes,

854
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: please write to us on our social media if you

855
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 1: have thoughts on this episode, if you live in a

856
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: country where one of these black sites existed, or maybe

857
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: you heard about them, or you've had any experience with

858
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: any of this, and you can speak to it. Um,

859
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: please write to us. Find us on Twitter, on Facebook

860
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: where we're conspiracy stuff. We're conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. UM.

861
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: If you don't want to do that stuff, you can

862
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: find us on Here's where it gets crazy. It's our

863
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: Facebook page. Um, what what's the official title for that.

864
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: It's a group Facebook group. It's a group, yeah, community page,

865
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: you could call it. Yeah. And you can go on

866
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: there and speak with your fellow listeners and with us.

867
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: We're on there occasionally too, and you know, get into

868
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: the conversation. We'd love to talk about this a little

869
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: further and know what you think and what you've experienced. Yeah,

870
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: and um, if you want to hit us up as

871
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: individuals outside of this show collective situation, you can do

872
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: that as well. I'm on Instagram exclusively at how Now

873
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: Noel Brown, mainly just hanging out with my kid and

874
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: I go to shows and um take a lot of

875
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: food picks. If you're into that, you can find all

876
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: that stuff and more there. And before I get black bagged,

877
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: you can find me on Instagram under the insanely creative

878
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: handle at Ben Bowlen. You can also find me and

879
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: several of my uh cohorts and fellow miscreants on Twitter

880
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: where I'm at Ben Bowlen h s W. Matt. Should

881
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: we have the conversation again about Instagram? I deleted it,

882
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: you guys? Really? Yeah? I deleted my Instagram, Yeah, the

883
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: one you just created. Yeah, it got too hot. It

884
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: was just, I mean, I was blown up. I had

885
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: like a hundred followers, a lot of deep fakes. Yeah,

886
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: I was getting d M. I'm just no, I'm just kidding.

887
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: It's still there. It's a Matt Frederick underscore. I heart

888
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 1: Oh it's not Oh fake, faked you out? I thought

889
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 1: it was still at face tats supreme, faced that supreme. Yeah,

890
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: that's not you. Well, I have been having a deep

891
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: conversation with the wrong person. Like man, you never know

892
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: if you're talking to me on line or not. Alright,

893
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 1: shout out to you at face tests supreme. But hey,

894
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: if someone hates the social needs, if someone doesn't care

895
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: to engage with it, we of course get it. We

896
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: did several episodes on how Facebook is bad for you,

897
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: and everything we said in those things either came to

898
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: pass or was already happening when we did those episodes.

899
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: We get it. You can reach us directly. We have

900
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: a call in number. We can go ahead, and we

901
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: we shared it at the top of the show. Yes,

902
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: but let's let's share it again. We are one eight

903
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. One last

904
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: thing here before we go. Um, and it's just because

905
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: we're right at the end here and a very tiny

906
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: proportion of you are actually listening right now. Statistics prove

907
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: this is the case. We we've seen the numbers. Um,

908
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: just we see you, We see you those of that

909
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: have remained. Just just just a quick quiz for you

910
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: out there. Um, if you see some Terry's trying to

911
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: get froggy? Do you a fireboard those mother jammers have

912
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: the same thing as waterboarding them? Do you be hypothetical

913
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: them in the classical? Or see do you drags alm clowns?

914
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: So we'd like to hear your responses to this uh.

915
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: And in addition to hearing which of those three you choose,

916
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: we'd like to hear why you chose that, because you

917
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: know this is a subject of intense debate here in

918
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: the studio. And if none of those previously mentioned avenues

919
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,959
Speaker 1: of communication quite bad, your badgers, We have good news,

920
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: despite it being here at the very end of the decade.

921
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: We have an email address you can write to us directly.

922
00:58:44,480 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy and i heeart radio dot com. Yeah.

923
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

924
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

925
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

926
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.