WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Sleeping On It 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:06.200 Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.840 there's Chuck and Jerry sitting in for Dave. So that 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.600 makes this short stuff and this is a good one. 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.720 I'm pretty excited about it, Chuck, that's right, big thanks 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:20.480 to web md, the National Institute of Health, and then 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.760 what Live Science. He found a cool interview from Live Science. Well, 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:25.920 they had a guest post from a guy named doctor 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.200 John Growhole. I think that's how you say his name, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.840 but he's CEO and founder of psych Central and Live 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.560 Science apparently said doctor grohole, why don't you come over 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.400 and write about sleeping on it for us? And he 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.440 said sure, and that was one of the sources we used. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.599 I bet it's a grohole. That's what I said. Grohole, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.479 no groal basically roll. Yeah, you're probably right, but I 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:52.760 mean the extra O between the H and the L 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.880 is what's throwed me off. But maybe the good doctor 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.400 did not say, Chary, I'll do it. Maybe he said, oh, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.279 let me sleep on it and I'll let you know 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.360 very nice. What word are we not going to say 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:08.880 in this episode, Chuck, don't grow whole? So um, it 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.400 is kind of interesting if you stop and think about it. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.840 I mean, basically all of us have had, if not 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:19.360 by design them, probably by accident, a period where we 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.800 were facing some dilemma, some big decision, and we slapped 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.440 on it. We slept before making the decision, and after 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.880 we slept, it was just way clearer the next day, 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.000 and we probably made the right decision from that point on. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.720 That's what everybody calls sleeping on the decision, right, But 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.320 why would that actually happen? Like that's an actual, like 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:45.120 a fascinating, amazing component of human life that I just 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.080 think is the tops. Yeah, and there's Here's the thing is, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.880 there's more to it than like we all know sleep 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.320 is just great for everything, but there's more to it 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.040 than like, but it is also this and like, you know, 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.400 you shouldn't send that email, that angry email, like sleep 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.760 on that sleep on the maybe sleep on the argument 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.839 that you're in the middle of having with your significant 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:17.120 other or your friend or whoever. Supposedly not going to 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.680 bed angry as a rule is not actually a very 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.400 good rule. We go to bed angry all the time 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:27.760 every night, not every night, but man, like you gotta sleep, 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.160 and if you're still angry, what are you gonna do? Right? 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.160 Exactly like it is for in the morning. We got 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.360 to works as out right, but there is more to 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.880 it than that, because just human sort of intuition would 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.760 tell you that, you know, you get some sleep, you 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.920 clear your head out, you make a better decision in 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.000 the morning. It just makes sense, but it's it's more 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.040 specific than that, right, Yeah, And we should say that 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.960 this pretty much applies as far as the research goes 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.520 to important, tough, complex decisions, like if you're at a 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.600 deli and you're like, should I have roast beef or 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.560 past me on rye? And you go and curl up 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.920 in the corner for thirty minutes and then wake up 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.600 with your answer. It's actually not going to help. You're 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.840 probably going to have the same answer. It's complicated decisions 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.440 that this works for. And most people say the reason 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.280 why is because when we sleep, we organize our memories 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.920 and process information during that period, and that we're probably 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.440 taking all this different information, new information, connecting it to 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.840 old information, cementing these neural pathways so that we understand 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.680 it better after we've slept than we understood it before, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.760 and that we can gain clarity from sleeping on a decision. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.880 And that's how that works. Yeah, and they've also found 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.800 and this comes from cal Berkeley, from doctor Matthew Walker 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.680 that who was a sleep scientist, which I'm fascinated by 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.120 that job that you know at getting good sleep helps 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.640 you learn, Like that's why you probably learn better, Like 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.920 right when after you wake up in the morning, your 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.240 morning classes in school, you're sharper than those afternoon classes. 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.960 But also that going to sleep after you learn for 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.360 reasons that you mentioned is a really big deal, which 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.560 led me to my next topic that I'm going to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.400 do for a long form episode, which is napping. Oh okay, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:20.520 because I think I told you on our super secret 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.520 research trip that I've been started taking a daily nap 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.560 last year. Yeah, yeah, and then it's been like life changing. 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.480 So I really want to know more about why so napping, 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.719 and again it has to do I'm sure in a 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.279 smaller way the reason a good night's sleep is good 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.680 for you. I would think so for sure. So napping 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.040 is coming soon, is what I'm saying. Okay, for me personally, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.159 right after I record and then we'll take a breaking 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.680 you can take a nap and then we'll come back. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:05:18.719 How about that. Okay, let's do it. Okay, Chuck, it's 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.760 forty five minutes later. I've been standing here waiting. Well, 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.160 I spoke up nap. I feel gratefully this is an 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.960 even better episode had you not napped. All right, So 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.279 we're moving on to some even more specifics which I 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:37.479 found super, super fascinating about sleeping on it, which is 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.440 the way your conscious mind and your unconscious mind works. Right. Yeah. 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.880 They think that maybe it doesn't really have much to 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.520 do with the actual act of sleeping or cementing memories 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.520 or new information, but that while we're sleeping, we're using 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.960 unconscious thought rather than conscious thought, and that you could actually, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.880 if this is true, you could do the same thing 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.960 um as sleeping on a decision without actually having to 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.080 go to sleep, if you can engage an unconscious thought 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.320 about it. And that sounds hard, but actually I think 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:15.600 it amounts to, um, just stopping thinking about and chewing 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.120 over the decision and going and doing something else, building 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.880 a model airplane, doing your tax It's just something else 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.760 because while you're doing that, um this this um. The 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:30.919 guy doctor Groholm points out that you um that that 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.800 unconscious thought is like not just zoning out, and it's 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:38.200 not not thinking, it's just a different mode of thinking, 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.960 and that you're you're still engaging an unconscious thought about 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.960 this problem, this dilemma, it's just not in the front 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.280 of your mind. And by removing it from the front 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.400 of your mind, putting it into unconscious thought, it seems 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.760 that that actually can produce really good decisions, just like 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.320 sleeping on something can too. Yeah, and it seems like 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.200 one of the big reasons why is buy it if 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:06.600 you are And I think this is where where overthinking, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.080 like if you say, oh, you're overthinking it, or if 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.360 you think something to death or something uh, that is 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.320 that is concentrating so hard on something on a decision 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.480 that your biases are creeping in. You're thinking about all 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.880 these different angles and you're quite literally just sort of 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:26.720 overdoing it. And apparently when you're just using your unconscious 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.720 thought and kind of parking it for a second in 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.840 the forefront of your brain, those biases will fade away. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:33.640 And the way I read it, or at least the 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.880 way it feels like in my brain, because I, you know, 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.120 try to do this stuff some is it feels like 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.160 it just sort of clears the table a little bit 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.560 and what's left is what's important. Yeah, because if with 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.880 your biases, with your conscious biases, you're you might push 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.560 yourself to a bad decision, because that's the one where 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.320 you get, like a snickerdoodle cookie, you know, where if 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.120 you engage it, I would do a lot for a 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.000 snickerdoodle cook but like probably things I should not be 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:07.080 doing if somebody offered a snickerdoodle, Right, But that if 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.800 you just engage in unconscious thinking, your brain is like, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.720 snickerdoodle cookie doesn't really matter that much. We're not going 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.760 to use that to weight the different factors in the decision. 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.720 These are all going to be fairly balanced out because 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.800 the biases are removed. So you can essentially step back, 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.440 look at all the different components, all the different possible 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.360 outcomes pretty much equally on an equal basis, and then say, 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.160 this is the one that's obviously the right decision to make. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.240 Even though I'm not getting a Snickerdoodle cookie. I can 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.160 go buy a snickerdoodle cookie and still make this correct 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.240 decision and have the best of both worlds. I could 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.240 have my snick snickerdoodle and eat it too. Oh man, 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.280 I knew that's what you're gonna say. Did you sure 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.600 you knew me, you know me. It's man, the wheels 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:51.600 are starting to fall off of this brain. I'll tell 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.839 you that there has been some study on this as 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.160 far as sleeping on it. There was that one that 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.320 I guess you found from. Was this from the NIH 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.160 or was this web MD? It was doctor grohol that 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.480 cited this one. The Okay, let me see if I 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:13.080 can hazard this name dister Hughes Dixterhuse. I think I 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.520 nailed it that last time, Dixterhuse, d I j K 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.400 S t E R h U I S And I'll 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:24.079 bet during college everybody call them the dixter Oh sure 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.559 at parties. Yeah, yeah, I don't know how you pronounce that. 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.839 That sounds about right now, Dixterhus. So this was an 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:35.439 experiment where they would try to get results from having, 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.160 you know, people sleep on a big decision or just 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.440 a decision that's um. I think in this case they 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.960 were talking about like choosing apartments, yeah, and like where 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:50.600 to live. I guess. So they would choose these participants, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.160 they would have a few apartments to choose from. They 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.559 would describe what's going on in these apartments, of course, 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.320 like you would with any movie real estate decision like 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.640 it's scutto this one has an extra half baths. That 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.160 one has a chalk body outline, that's right, I want 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.360 to avoid that one unless that's your thing. Uh. And 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.360 after reading these descriptions, they were asked to make their 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.440 choice UM following an additional period of conscious thought or 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:23.360 unconscious thought. And as you would expect, the unconscious thinkers, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:25.680 well this is this is the only part I wonder about. 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:30.040 It has made the better decision than conscious thinkers. But 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.520 what's the better decision? Like would they be like, well, 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.560 he shows the wrong place clearly. Yeah, now you have 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.360 to actually go live in there in reality because that 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.920 part is subjective, right, And whether or not that was 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.160 the right choice, yeah, I don't know what the what 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:48.040 the criteria was, but clearly something was more desirable than 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:54.640 than others in the apartments, because maybe outline probably was. 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.360 But the thing that I saw there was like some 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.760 other follow up UM studies or subsections to the study, 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.880 and they found that experts as well are subject to 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.840 the same thing. Like you could take an expert and 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.120 ask them to make a snap decision about something and 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.840 they're probably going to make a worse decision than a 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.360 non expert who has had time to sleep on it 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.560 or engage an unconscious thought about that decision. Interesting, And 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.720 you know what that tracks, because I think one of 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.400 the traits of what you would call highly successful people 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.679 is to be able to make the right decision quickly 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:39.679 and even under duress. Yes, but that is asking for 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.719 a lot and a lot of people who say one 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.400 of the reasons why sleeping on it or engaging in 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.800 unconscious thought is just by virtue of stepping away from 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:55.160 the problem, you are relinquishing the stress of immediacy. You're saying, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.240 I'm not going to make this decision under duress. I'm 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.760 going to give myself some time and up away from it, 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.640 And you are just automatically taking yourself out of a 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.640 stressful situation, and then by virtue of that alone, you're 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:09.960 probably going to make a better decision. So I think 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.120 the upshot is is unless someone has a gun to 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.720 your head and is telling you to hack into some mainframe, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.360 you can probably step away from the decision. You're probably 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.440 putting yourself under undue pressure, and the more likely you 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.080 are to do that, the more likely you are to 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.160 probably make a better decision than if you just make 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.800 a snap one under duress. The only thing I'm going 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.640 to disagree with there is that people are a sort 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.520 of can ask for and or afforded that luxury because 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.920 I think far too many jobs when they don't need 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:48.000 to require immediacy of action that you know, if you're 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.200 like can I sleep on it, They're like, this isn't 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.680 the job for you? Then? So like, give me an example, Oh, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.319 I mean any big, high stakes, sort of high pressure 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.080 upper management stuff. I don't feel like there's a lot 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.560 of those people that are. I think the ones that 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.360 are maybe truly successful are probably drawing those boundaries and 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.319 saying like, no, we should take our time with this decision. 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.400 But sure, I feel like a lot of those are like, no, 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.040 we need to we need to figure this out and 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.640 act on it. That's probably true. I'm not disagreeing with that, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.720 but I'll bet that they That means that the decisions 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.079 that are being made at these higher echelons are probably 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.920 routinely bad decisions. Well, there may be something anythink about it, 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.600 you know, you know, yeah, I want my CEOs to 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.280 go sleep on things. That's my that's my game. Yeah, 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.240 we should start a new corporation called sleep on It. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.040 That's a great idea. We'll have to edit that out 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:44.320 so nobody steals our idea. It's probably out there already. Okay, well, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:48.559 well we'll look, we'll do a business search. Okay, Well, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.080 while we're doing a business search, everybody, this short stuff 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:57.200 is out. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.280 For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the I heart 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.240 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:04.000 favorite shows.