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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie,

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Speaker 1: we were surrounded by symbols, like even right now, care

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Speaker 1: are symbols in our midst, on the recording equipment, on

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Speaker 1: on our shirt center clothing. We're not yours symbol cree

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Speaker 1: is about design. Well, I'm wearing black and you could

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Speaker 1: say that, Um, I'm sort of trying to communicate some

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Speaker 1: sort of message here. Yes, some absence of symbols, but

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Speaker 1: that's in itself is kind of a symbol exactly. You know,

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Speaker 1: I embraced the void and that's what I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: tell people with this. You have your Boards of Canada

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Speaker 1: shirt on, yeah, which kind of has a logo symbol

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Speaker 1: thing going on for sure, And just going through a

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Speaker 1: daily life, just think of how many symbols we encounter,

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Speaker 1: I mean, corporate logos, um, religious iconography, basic like male bathroom,

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Speaker 1: female bathroom, no parking, wheelchair accessible. I mean, the symbols

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Speaker 1: just completely crowd our world. And even though we don't

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Speaker 1: think about it, those symbols are constantly communicating with us,

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Speaker 1: our brain is in sync with all of them and uh.

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Speaker 1: And so in this episode, we'd like to really step

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Speaker 1: back and think about symbols, about what they are, how

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Speaker 1: they work, how our brain interfaces with them, and uh

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Speaker 1: and and really to what extent they control us? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because we're essentially talking about the conceptual life of a

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Speaker 1: stand in for something else. It's how we make meaning

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Speaker 1: of our world. So even something as simple as say

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Speaker 1: me working on my computer and seeing a spinning rainbow

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Speaker 1: that looks like a mint, uh, this means something to me.

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Speaker 1: It means that I'm now in the dull droom dull

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Speaker 1: drooms of uncertainty here, and I'm going to get frustrated

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Speaker 1: pretty soon because an application isn't working. Right, of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the mac um hick No wheel of doom. Well,

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Speaker 1: the wheel as a symbol of endless cycle and of frustration.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's all I mean. The Buddhist smol of

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Speaker 1: the wheel is about, uh, you know, being being trapped

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Speaker 1: in a cycle that won't end. And so so the

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Speaker 1: frustration on the wheel, even that is an old symbol

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Speaker 1: that takes on new meaning and our technological age, right,

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Speaker 1: that's that's really powerful. Right that this thing can communicate

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Speaker 1: this test um. So signs, as you say, they can

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Speaker 1: take all sorts of forms that can take or excuse me,

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Speaker 1: symbols can take all sorts of forms like signs, uh, words, letters, odors,

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Speaker 1: even flavors. All these things are a stand in for

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Speaker 1: some sort of experience or some sort of idea, and

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Speaker 1: they have no meaning unless we invest them with meaning

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Speaker 1: and they have context. In fact, some Otians generally say

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Speaker 1: that there are no pure icons. So you mentioned the

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Speaker 1: bathroom icons of the male and the female, the stick

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Speaker 1: figures one is wearing a skirt, one is not. But

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Speaker 1: if you are coming from a culture where say that

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Speaker 1: the men wear skirts or some sort of clothing mean

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Speaker 1: like a kilted culture, like I'm not so much Scotland

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Speaker 1: because I feel like they're they're in the now in

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Speaker 1: the West. About what those sort of icons mean. But

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Speaker 1: maybe let's say, uh, you were in an undiscovered tribe

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, for some reason, you

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Speaker 1: were discovered and ferried into a um area where there

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Speaker 1: was a Western bathroom. Well, there's a lot that's gonna

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be so much that you're trying to take

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Speaker 1: in there. But those symbols aren't necessarily going to mean

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Speaker 1: something to you, particularly if the males wear a clothing

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Speaker 1: item that resemble a skirt, right, I mean, clearly that's

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Speaker 1: a person on that sign that one sign. Is it

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Speaker 1: a male? Is it female? I don't know. It must

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Speaker 1: mean humans go in here or this is where humans

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Speaker 1: come from. And then likewise there's another sort of mouth

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Speaker 1: shaped human. Yeah, and what is that supposed to mean?

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Speaker 1: Is it a human? Is it a monster of some

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Speaker 1: kind hybrid form? Yeah? And what is what is this

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Speaker 1: plumbing thing? This this machine I'm supposed to poop in? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with the clean water, the drinking water in it, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So Yeah, there are a lot of different issues there,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, all these things are stand ins for experience.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to bring up the Marble Man because

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Speaker 1: I feel like in the West, particularly during a certain

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Speaker 1: historical era, the marble Man was big. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: was like the symbol of rugged individualism reality. Um, just

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Speaker 1: like the male dominance. Yeah, he was, he was, he

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Speaker 1: was virile, he was, he was macho. He's a cowboy,

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Speaker 1: he's smoking, he's not Karen, He's he's he's everything he

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Speaker 1: would want to be. He's living off the land, and

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Speaker 1: of course now we see that and we think a

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Speaker 1: little bit more like a black and lung. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: quite have the same power that it used to. So

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Speaker 1: the symbol all the Marlboro Man has has kind of shifted,

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Speaker 1: at least for my interpretation, I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people's interpretation, based on the shift in our culture

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Speaker 1: right now. I don't think that's a surprise to say

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Speaker 1: that symbols are not static and that they change because

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Speaker 1: our language changes all of the time. It has to

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Speaker 1: be fluid, um. It has to in order to you

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Speaker 1: deliver those memes that we talked about, right these ideas

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Speaker 1: that rise to the surface and carry the symbol with

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Speaker 1: them to the greater culture out there. Yeah. Another big

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Speaker 1: example of a symbol that's meaning has changed is the swastika.

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Speaker 1: Swastikas of course is a very old image, and there

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Speaker 1: are various forms of the swastika, you know, and kind

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Speaker 1: of the there's of course the more modern um German

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Speaker 1: swastika that was used during the Second World War by

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Speaker 1: the Nazis that you have you have Hindu swastick as,

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Speaker 1: you have Buddhi swastikas. Uh. The dates back all the

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Speaker 1: way to the Indus Valley civilization and the if you

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Speaker 1: look back at Zoroastrian religion of Persia, uh, the swastick

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Speaker 1: was more symbol of a revolving son of Infinity, of

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Speaker 1: continuing creation. And if you weren't exposed to the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: the swastika might still inspire that in your mind, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the basic form of the thing, the

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Speaker 1: motif of the thing. There's a sense of of cycle

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Speaker 1: to it us and in a very sunlike imagery in it.

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Speaker 1: But we come into it with our knowledge of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, with our knowledge of the Natzi, these of

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Speaker 1: all the transpired during the Second World War and the Holocaust,

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Speaker 1: and so all of that gets factored into the image.

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Speaker 1: So an image that for the longest time just stood

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Speaker 1: for basic basically very positive ideas and powerful ideas becomes

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Speaker 1: this dark image of hatred. All right, it was appropriated

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Speaker 1: and it's now what is the stand in for what

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Speaker 1: it formerly was. So again this idea that it can change,

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Speaker 1: that it's fluid. And this made me think of the

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Speaker 1: Pioneer plaque, because this this is a great example of

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Speaker 1: not just um the changing ideas we have of what

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Speaker 1: the human species is or should be represented, but also

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Speaker 1: a great example of how powerful symbols are, because how

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Speaker 1: do you try to um to communicate with the universe.

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Speaker 1: You try to boil down the Earth and the human

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Speaker 1: experience with a couple of symbols, which is exactly what

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Speaker 1: happened when the Pioneer was put on the Pioneer probe

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Speaker 1: that was launched in nineteen seventy two. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: the idea here was, let's sum up who we are

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Speaker 1: where we are in an attempt to possibly communicate with

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Speaker 1: an extraterrestrial species, or at the very least to serve

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Speaker 1: as kind of a time capsule. To say, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, uh, the humans, the human race as a

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Speaker 1: pair of lovers carving their name into a tree. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of yea. And ultimately that's kind of how Sagan

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Speaker 1: solid too. The more of a time capsule and less

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Speaker 1: of an actual communication. But still it was created in

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Speaker 1: the name of communicating with another species. Yeah, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about simple line drawings that are engraved in this plaque.

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Speaker 1: So it has diagrams of the Earth's location and drawings

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Speaker 1: of a nude man and a nude woman. Now very

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Speaker 1: simple and straightforward, right, But If you look at this

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Speaker 1: a little bit closer, you notice that the man has

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Speaker 1: his hand up as if he's waving, or as if

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Speaker 1: he has a question there's something he doesn't understand, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or if he's just checking the wind direction yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: or he's uh, he's he's he's hailing a cab, or

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Speaker 1: he's stretching, or he's stretching yeah, or he's got some

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Speaker 1: sort of like a weird limb thing where his arm

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Speaker 1: just rises. Oh, alien hands syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. So he's

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Speaker 1: got his hand up and the female does not. And

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Speaker 1: if you look at this, you can start to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I can infer here that this man, he is this

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Speaker 1: signifier the form that an idea takes, and what is

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Speaker 1: being signified is the concept. So the concept here is

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Speaker 1: that the man is the representative for the human species,

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Speaker 1: that he is the person who is trying to communicate.

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Speaker 1: And if you really really start to look at this closely,

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Speaker 1: then you from the perspective of humans, of course, because

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Speaker 1: we can occupy no other perspective, you begin to understand

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Speaker 1: that there is a hierarchy involved here, even though we're

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Speaker 1: talking about very simple line drawings. Now, is this representative

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Speaker 1: of the culture right now because we were close now

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Speaker 1: like we did back then. Well, there might be a

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Speaker 1: different kind of plaque that is sent out to try

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Speaker 1: to communicate what we are who we are. I think

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Speaker 1: maybe the male and female would be a little more

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Speaker 1: equal in that now. Of course, the plaque involves some

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Speaker 1: other stuff to it. It showed the hyperfine transition of

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Speaker 1: neutral hydrogen. It showed a relative position of the Sun

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Speaker 1: to the center of the galaxy, and fourteen pulsars solar

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Speaker 1: systems spacecraft. You know. But but certainly the depictions of

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Speaker 1: us are central there. And uh, and there are a

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Speaker 1: number of criticisms to make. Obviously they're they're the the

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Speaker 1: cultural implications of the whole raising of the hand? What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? But would but would another culture understand that?

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Speaker 1: Would then would extraterrestrials who don't have arms, who say,

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Speaker 1: have tentacles instead, What would they make of this? Would they?

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Speaker 1: Would they understand the hand signified, or even if they

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Speaker 1: had hands, perhaps in their culture it's more of a

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Speaker 1: they might say, Oh, well, look, the man is clearly

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Speaker 1: the subservient of these two because he has to rush

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Speaker 1: forward and eat the food that the other creature is

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Speaker 1: going to eat later. You know, they might have some

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Speaker 1: sort of weird connotation that totally excuse it. Well, of course,

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Speaker 1: and that's where the context is everything, right, Like what

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Speaker 1: if raising your hand to another culture is the extent

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Speaker 1: is the equivalent of putting up the middle finger, Like

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Speaker 1: imagine the Pioneer plaque if he was if he was

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Speaker 1: flipping off the other other species. I mean, then you

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Speaker 1: can also into things like, for the error, arrows are

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Speaker 1: used on that on that plaque, and would the arrow

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Speaker 1: as a symbol makes sense to a species that never

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Speaker 1: used a bow and arrow, never used a javelin, they

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Speaker 1: didn't have some sort of hunter gatherer ancestry, or as

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Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, you you said should we

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Speaker 1: should they have had a child on there? And that

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Speaker 1: made me think of the fossil record where we were

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Speaker 1: always running into these situations when we're looking at dinosaur bones,

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Speaker 1: where we say, now, is this a different creature or

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Speaker 1: is this the female of the species? Is this a

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Speaker 1: is this merely an infant of the species. So you

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Speaker 1: can imagine a situation where they might look and not

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Speaker 1: realize that they're dealing with two with two genders, because

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Speaker 1: what if the what if the aliens looking as blaque

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Speaker 1: did not have genders. What if they had five genders?

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Speaker 1: You know what, what would they make of this? How

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Speaker 1: would they interpret it? Right? So, I mean it's kind

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Speaker 1: of hard to try to to make something that would

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Speaker 1: really make sense unless you have an understanding of how

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Speaker 1: another culture or civilization or species would conceive of it.

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Speaker 1: So uh, but still it's a really it's a really

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Speaker 1: fine attempt to boil down a lot of information into

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Speaker 1: a very concise package. And that's ultimately what's so amazing symbols. Well,

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Speaker 1: but I also think that the Pioneer plaque is largely

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Speaker 1: for us as humans. Is the excitement of saying, guess what,

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Speaker 1: we're humans, We're we're cool. Here's our name written on

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Speaker 1: the on the tree. Here's our coordinates, right, here's some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that's in our atmosphere. But yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what I love about symbols is that a symbol can

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Speaker 1: be something very simple, like the at symbol or the

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Speaker 1: proposed the symbol, which looks like a ten an h

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Speaker 1: that where all you have is okay, you have some

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Speaker 1: letters that are symbols, and those symbols make a word

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Speaker 1: that is a symbol for something and then we have

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Speaker 1: a slightly smaller, more concise symbol just to represent that

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Speaker 1: word or that or in that concept. But then you

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Speaker 1: have again things like the swastika, things like the Marlboro man,

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Speaker 1: things like the Pioneer plaque, where the symbol instantly conveys

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Speaker 1: a lot of data. And if you had to to

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Speaker 1: describe even to even to to like in modern terms,

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Speaker 1: what a swastika means, what a crucifix means, what a

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Speaker 1: Marlboro Man means, you're talking like a whole essay. You

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Speaker 1: have to sit there and write it out. You have

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Speaker 1: to sit there and and use a verbal language to

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Speaker 1: describe it for you know, five minutes or so. Whereas

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Speaker 1: the symbol instantly, that's right, because you get it coded

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Speaker 1: in your brain and then you just bring it up

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Speaker 1: and up again. We'll talk about that a little bit

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Speaker 1: more when we talk about how our brain works on symbols.

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Speaker 1: Side note, Do we really need a symbol for the

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Speaker 1: that's th h? I mean, are we that lazy? We

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Speaker 1: just I mean it's one letter, well, just the It

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Speaker 1: would make tweets easier and texting easier. But but there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people that argue that it is

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Speaker 1: unnecessary but but you're losing one letter. That's that's it.

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Speaker 1: We'll see, I mean, and we can really go we

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Speaker 1: could go ahead and just reduce it to thh to

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Speaker 1: cut out one letter, or just reduce it to duh

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Speaker 1: d A. Okay, I have an idea about that, but

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Speaker 1: I want to save it until we talk about the brain. Okay, okay, alright,

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Speaker 1: So to make this case, we also wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about Neanderthals and crows because they figure into this symbolic

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Speaker 1: representation as well. Yes, so Neanderthals of course, um our

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Speaker 1: hominid brethren who are no longer with us people before people.

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Speaker 1: We did an entire podcast episode about these ladies and

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Speaker 1: gentlemen uh and uh. And they're they're always endlessly fascinating

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Speaker 1: because they are before us. They are different from us.

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Speaker 1: They are in a sense as close as we can

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Speaker 1: get to an extraterrestrial being, you know, I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: terrestrial obviously, but they are like us, but unlike us. Well,

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Speaker 1: and we have some of their DNA we know this.

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Speaker 1: So we were looking at this particular study where archaeologist

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Speaker 1: gals How of being Verity of Bristol in England and

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Speaker 1: his colleagues found a fifty thousand year old uh perforated

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Speaker 1: painted seashells and pigment containers on the Iberian Peninsula in

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Speaker 1: southwestern Europe. And this was a region that was inhabited

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Speaker 1: solely by any der dolls at the time. Modern humans

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Speaker 1: who lived in Africa at the time these similar objects

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Speaker 1: as jewelry and for body painting, to symbolizing under various

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Speaker 1: social standing, etcetera. But this particular study, the particular to

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Speaker 1: find suggests that the brains of the common ancestor of

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Speaker 1: both species must have already had the biological basis for

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Speaker 1: symbolic thought. Uh So, way back then there are easingly shells,

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Speaker 1: there reason pigments as as a way to signify roles

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Speaker 1: and positions within their society. Yeah, I mean, Zelho is

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Speaker 1: saying that they had the biological basis for symbolic thought

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Speaker 1: dating back about half a million years ago, because he

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Speaker 1: says assigning specific meanings to arbitrary words and sounds is

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Speaker 1: symbolic thinking by definition. Yeah. So it really makes you

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Speaker 1: think about how this was the pre assessor for actual language. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it boils down to one of the hallmarks of

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Speaker 1: the human species. And and and to their point, some

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Speaker 1: some predecessors of humans as well about what makes us

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Speaker 1: so successful, and that's our ability to externalize internal processes

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Speaker 1: such as cooking of course is externalizing internal digestion, and

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Speaker 1: symbolic thought is essentially externalizing aspects of our thinking. That

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Speaker 1: that that free up our cognitive abilities so that we

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Speaker 1: can maximize what we're doing internally. Of course, all of

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Speaker 1: this is predicated on the idea that we have to survive.

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Speaker 1: In order to survive, we've got to be able to

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Speaker 1: suss out these symbols and figure out our universe. And

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Speaker 1: you have to look at crows as a as a

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Speaker 1: really good example of this. We're talking about crows capable

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Speaker 1: of distinguishing symbols. This was from a study led by

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Speaker 1: Choice Sugita who used eight jungle crows, relatives of the

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Speaker 1: American crow. By the way and the job In scientists

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Speaker 1: also found that the jungle crows were able to determine

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Speaker 1: which container that they had in front of The crows

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Speaker 1: held food in which did not, based on a symbol system. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of the content containers would have either two or

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Speaker 1: five Yeah. And they had a pretty like success rate.

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Speaker 1: And they did about twenty different experiments with food and symbols,

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Speaker 1: and eventually that the crows clocked in about seventy success

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Speaker 1: rate as they did this more and more matching food

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Speaker 1: the symbol. So we know that this is just a

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Speaker 1: very basic, uh rudimentary skill that all animals have, including humans,

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Speaker 1: in order to suss out how to get to what

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Speaker 1: we need. All right, Well, on that note, we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss language. We're going to discuss symbols

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Speaker 1: some more, and we're gonna discuss how symbols interact with

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Speaker 1: our brain. All right, we're back, and let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about language. What what is language and uh

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Speaker 1: and and how it releases symbols. I mean, ultimately, as

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Speaker 1: we're talking about earlier, we're talking about externalizing internal processes,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about using them as h as kind of

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Speaker 1: footholds as we ascend it to uh more complicated topics. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I mean basically the use of words verbal were written

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Speaker 1: signifiers and symbols. They represent ideas and when they're combined

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Speaker 1: they allow us to build more complicated ideas. That's right. So, um,

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Speaker 1: it is basically the way that we navigate the world.

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Speaker 1: But just do not think of it that way, because language,

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Speaker 1: each letter is a symbol of right, each word, each phrase,

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Speaker 1: each paragraph has more and more meaning that's built upon it,

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Speaker 1: more and more symbols that become these shorthands. And you

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Speaker 1: begin to look around, you know, widen your scope a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and you see that the traffic signals that

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Speaker 1: direct you, um whether or not you're taking a train

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Speaker 1: or you're driving a car, there are all sorts of

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Speaker 1: navigational signals. They're telling you how to order your world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we've discussed before the idea to that language is

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Speaker 1: essentially the operating system for the human brain that we

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Speaker 1: have all the hardware, and then language is what we

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Speaker 1: use to actually think about things and to actually tackle concepts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's something like the periodic table of elements, right, This

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Speaker 1: is this is a good example of symbols and us

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Speaker 1: trying to make the invisible world visible to us, albeit

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Speaker 1: in this form where we can try to figure out

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Speaker 1: the properties of each element. Yeah, because at the periodic table,

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Speaker 1: obviously it's not a true map, it's not a place.

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Speaker 1: It's summing up a lot of things that are invisible

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Speaker 1: or are a lot more complicated and taking that boiling

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Speaker 1: it down into a version of reality that makes sense

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Speaker 1: even at a quick glance. You look at it the

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Speaker 1: periodic table, and you realize this is the scientific underpinning

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Speaker 1: of the substances that that to make up physical reality. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Even the coordinates on it have a meaning to them, right,

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Speaker 1: So if you'rely can at a certain vertical column, then

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Speaker 1: you know that they all share similar properties. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: even even though it's not a true map, it is

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Speaker 1: a map of sorts. So and so that's just an

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Speaker 1: example of our outer universe that we are ordering, but

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Speaker 1: we also are ordering our inner universe. And I can't

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Speaker 1: help but bring up Karl Hung. Yes, of course, the

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Speaker 1: Swiss psychoanalysts, because you're a union. I don't know that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I appreciate Young and I have the

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Speaker 1: Red Book, which is a bunch of his drawings of

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Speaker 1: the unconscious via symbols, and it's fascinating and beautiful and

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Speaker 1: and also kind of horrific too, because he's using this

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Speaker 1: these archetypes, these symbols to try to delve into the mind,

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Speaker 1: into the unconscious. And so what he was doing is

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Speaker 1: trying to use this universality of symbols to suss out

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Speaker 1: the human experience the inner world. Yeah, and we've all

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Speaker 1: looked at like dream interpretation guides before, whether talk about

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Speaker 1: what these different symbols mean, what these like, what does

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Speaker 1: it mean if you're falling, And if you're falling in

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Speaker 1: a dream, then it means that that bad stuff may

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Speaker 1: happen during the daylight. If you're being chased through streets,

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Speaker 1: the same thing if you're if you're turning, if your

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Speaker 1: flesh is turning into a tree roots, then it means

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get disease. You know, people look for all

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Speaker 1: sorts of portance in in this kind of imagery. But

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Speaker 1: but but it boils down to the idea that symbols

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Speaker 1: are that powerful. They connect with the subconscious and if

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Speaker 1: you want to apply supernatural thinking to it, you might

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Speaker 1: think that that symbols also connect us to hidden knowledge

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Speaker 1: outside of ourselves. And you should also look at it

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Speaker 1: like dreams, they don't come to you in a highly

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Speaker 1: realistic way. They come to you fully symbolically packaged. Right.

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Speaker 1: You don't necessarily read a book in your dream, right,

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Speaker 1: Or I've tried to actually in my dreams, but it's

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Speaker 1: always blurry or something. Um. You know, you you get

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Speaker 1: pounded over the head with all these different archetypes, and

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Speaker 1: so it's very clear that this is important to the

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Speaker 1: operating system of our brains in a way, it's to

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Speaker 1: try to figure out what's been going on. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating that's represented to us in that way. Ye. Now,

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Speaker 1: another area of symbolic use that has always fascinating me,

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Speaker 1: and going back to the idea of adding supernatural elements

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Speaker 1: to it, is the use of sickles uh symbolic representations

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Speaker 1: of demons or a wizard's desired outcome, and then you

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Speaker 1: also have hyper sickles uh such as this is popularized

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Speaker 1: by Grant Morrison, the writer of graphic novels who saw

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Speaker 1: a hypercyle is an extended work of art with magical

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Speaker 1: meaning and willpower. So like a comic book or a

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Speaker 1: novel or a movie where it's a bunch of symbols

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Speaker 1: that are put together in a way to where the

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Speaker 1: symbols kind of overlap to form some greater symbol uh.

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Speaker 1: So I always find that interesting as well. In a sense,

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Speaker 1: a really crazy dream is the kind of hypercycle and

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Speaker 1: is and if you want to check out some of

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Speaker 1: some of the archetypes that have been collected by eras.

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Speaker 1: This is the archive for research and our type of symbolism.

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Speaker 1: Go to airrors dot org. You can kind of browse

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Speaker 1: a little bit. You do have to become a member

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Speaker 1: to check out the full catalog, but it is an

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Speaker 1: amazing amount of symbolic, mythological, ritualistic images that you can

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Speaker 1: search and then it actually give you not just the

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Speaker 1: accompanying um information about what it means, but will tell

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Speaker 1: you during what periods of history that it was in

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Speaker 1: popular use and what regions of the world. So it's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So we've plopped through what symbols are, why they're important

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Speaker 1: to us, How powerful their their their communication is. How

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Speaker 1: about how a symbol can instantly convey something that we

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Speaker 1: take you paragraphs and paragraphs to uh to to completely

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Speaker 1: spell out that they can sum up things that are

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Speaker 1: impossible even to completely relate with language. But how do

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Speaker 1: they interact with the brain itself? All right, So the

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Speaker 1: brain is going to try to visualize a symbol in

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Speaker 1: three different ways. This is according to information designer Ted Whushak,

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Speaker 1: who has a Ted talk on this, and he says

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Speaker 1: that the brain doesn't actually see the world as it is,

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Speaker 1: but instead creates a series of mental models. And we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before too, to get to those ah

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Speaker 1: ha moments, and David Eagleman talks about this a lot too,

428
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: that the unconscious usually kind of burps up an idea

429
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: and you have that aha moment that you don't realize

430
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: that it's been uh, that that idea has been worked

431
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: on for months, maybe even years before it served up.

432
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: Nobody's view of the real world is actually the real world.

433
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: It is just a worldview that we take on. It's

434
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: a simulation in a sense. So what happens, what what?

435
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: What happens before this symbol emblazons itself in our minds. Well,

436
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: of course it begins with the eyes. You have light

437
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: entering hitting the back of the retina, and it's circulated

438
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: mostly to the back of the brain to the primary

439
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: visual cortex. But then, according to Wushack, it acts like

440
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: a relay station that reradiates and redirects information to other

441
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: parts of the brain. So we're talking about thirty different

442
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: person of the brain that get in on this, but

443
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: there are three really important ones. The first one is

444
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: the ventral stream, and this is the part of the

445
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: brain that recognizes what something is so if I look

446
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: at my hand, that's the what that's my hand, that's

447
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: a book, that's a remote control. The second one is

448
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: the dorsal stream, and what this does it locates the

449
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: object and it creates a mental map in your mind.

450
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: The third one is the limbic system, which we've talked

451
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: about a lot in terms of processing emotions. So that's

452
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: the part that feels like the ah ha, the the

453
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: emotional response to what that symbol begins to mean that

454
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: the form that it's taking as an abstract, And this

455
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: combination of these processing centers help us to make meaning

456
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: in a bunch of different ways. So one way to

457
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: understand how symbols interact with the mind is to look

458
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: at how children learn language and uh, some of the

459
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: materials we're looking at there talking about how when children

460
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: are learning language, simple use in the prefrontal vortex that's

461
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: where all the activities taking place. But then as they

462
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: become accustomed to what these symbols mean, to what language means,

463
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: the paratical region takes over the job. The association has

464
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: become more automatic. So it comes back to this idea

465
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: of symbols as a place holder for for more complex

466
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: thought in a sense, it's kind of like we figure

467
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: out what that basic idea is, We form an idea

468
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: of what this is about, and then we assign it

469
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: that symbol, and then that symbol squared away in the

470
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: same way that we might circle a paragraph in a

471
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: book we're reading and then market with a signal like

472
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: maybe just a star. That star signifies this is an

473
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: important passage and it's a passage that I need to

474
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: come back to. And so in a sense, we we

475
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: do the same thing with our symbolic understanding of the world. Yeah,

476
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: and it's interesting that you see that in kids, right,

477
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: that they began to shorthand that knowledge so that it

478
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: can be mapped out in their brains so they can

479
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: recall it later. And it reminds me of another study

480
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: that we saw that talked about how expectations speed up

481
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: conscious perception. So those archetypes that you learn, turns out

482
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: that when you're taking in a bunch of stimuli, if

483
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: you recognize that symbol, well, then we're talking about your

484
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: ability to speed up your processing by something like a

485
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: hundred milliseconds. Now that doesn't sound huge, but just consider

486
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: that when you're taking in data, it usually takes about

487
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: three hundred milliseconds for it to get perceived. So if

488
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: you can cut that down by about by those archetypes,

489
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: that's when the the th h E to the th

490
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: H sort of makes sense, right, Yeah, because it's kind

491
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: of like, how do you win a war? You want

492
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: to You can win a war with overwhelming force, but

493
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: a lot of times if the if the two sides

494
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: are more equal, you win a war. You win a

495
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: battle with a lot of petty advantages that stack up.

496
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: So all that that lost time, I mean, all that

497
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: game time, a hundred milliseconds here, a hundred milliseconds there,

498
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: it's it's eventually gonna potentially make the difference when you're

499
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: having to think on your feet really fast and uh

500
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: and and choose that, you know, make that savor tooth

501
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: tie related decision in your modern life. Yeah. So, I mean,

502
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: if you are saving a hundreds of millisecond every single

503
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: time that you're taking in a new piece of data,

504
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: then you are conserving a lot more energy. And now

505
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of cutting down th E to

506
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: th H, but it's prevalence in the language. I do

507
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: understand that there is a conservation of energy in the act. Yeah, well,

508
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: you don't want to you don't want to boil it

509
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: down so much that you don't think. And I think

510
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: that's one of the problems that sometimes occur with with symbols,

511
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: is that they are so powerful that they are cutting

512
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: out our reasoning and depending on existing um thought that

513
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of they're kind of viral. There's a

514
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: viral power to symbols, especially within certain cultures, you know, uh,

515
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: depending how how resonant it is. Like again, I come

516
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: back to the swastica about how powerful the swastika becomes

517
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: as the symbol of hate in modern society, to the

518
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: point where it's, for instance, you know, it's outlawed in Germany.

519
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: You can't go around publishing a swastika on things, even

520
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: if it's a historic, historically accurate and model airplane. Then

521
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: if you're buying the kit in Germany, you need to

522
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: see about acquiring your slastikas separately. Now, So we were

523
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: talking about this on our commute full of signs this

524
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: morning about how this this sort of short shorthand placement

525
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: stand in and our brains is really really helpful, right

526
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: because it does it's like it's shortening the th e

527
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: to th h but it can be a problem because

528
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is unconscious stereotyping, and we don't

529
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: necessarily know that we're always doing this, but when we're

530
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: taking in data and we're thin slicing, as Malcolm glad

531
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: Law might say, am blink, we're trying to get that

532
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: really quick perception and most of the time that helps

533
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: us out a lot, but it can really actually show

534
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: up as errors in our thinking. And it made me

535
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: think about this study that came up about foreign languages

536
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: and people using a second language to consider high risk scenarios.

537
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: The study is called the Foreign Language Effect Thinking in

538
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: a fog and tongue reduces decision biases, which documents a

539
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: series of experiments on more than three people from the

540
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: US and Korea. And this is from a Wired article

541
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: by Brian King, who says that human reasoning is shaped

542
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: by two distinct modes of thought. One that's systematic, analytical,

543
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: and cognition intensive, and the other that's fast, unconscious, and

544
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: emotionally charged. Right, that's the feelings that we get, that

545
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: Olympic system coming into play. So the idea is that

546
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: the cognitive demands of thinking in a non native language

547
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: would leave people with a little leftover mental horsepower, ultimately

548
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: increasing the reliance on quick and dirty cogitation right, just

549
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: that quick analytical and they did. They found that in

550
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: the study that people were able to make better, more

551
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: rational decisions when working in their second language as opposed

552
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: to their mother tongue, which was freighted with emotion, because

553
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: you're stepping outside of culture, you're stepping outside of self,

554
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: stepping outside of symbol to a certain degree, because if

555
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: that symbol I mean that simple will mean something to you,

556
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: but it's going to mean something different in a second language,

557
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: which has a distance from from what was ingrained in

558
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: your brain when you were being brought up in this

559
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: one language. It comes back to that idea of language

560
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: is as an operating system. One language is MAC, one

561
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: language is is PC, and certain things are going to

562
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: travel from one to the next, but some aren't. Um

563
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: In Neil Stevenson's book Snow Crash, which is one of

564
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: his earlier novels, a cyberpunk classic UH these days, rather

565
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: different from some of his more recent work. But there's

566
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: a great deal in that book that has to do

567
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: UH with a trend toward towards divergence in language and

568
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: about how the fact that we have various languages in

569
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: the world actually prevents and protects from widespread harm. Uh.

570
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: So you know, we all know the story of a

571
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: farmer grows only one crop, then his entire farm is

572
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: susceptible to devastation by a single parasite. So Stevenson draws

573
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: draws in the eye that say, Nazism is a cultural virus.

574
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: And uh, and if you have a universal language, then

575
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: that cultural virus is more has more potential to spread

576
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: to everyone. So the kind of factors into what you're

577
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: saying there. Well, let's talk a little bit more about

578
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: how our behaviors altered and our ideas are altered by simples.

579
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking specifically about Adam Alter, the psychologist. Yeah,

580
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: this is the guy wh wrote a book on drunk

581
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: pink pink Um, which feels also a lot with color theory.

582
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: And hopefully we'll come back and do an episode on

583
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: color theory of there's interests out there in us covering

584
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: that topic. But he pointed out that Christians tend to

585
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: behave more honestly when they're exposed to an image of

586
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: a crucifix, even when they have no conscious memory of

587
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 1: having seen it. So there's just across and crosses a

588
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: lot like the swastick, and in a sense of prost

589
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: and a swastika are are at at very base level

590
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: the same thing, and both are cruciform up and there

591
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: are a lot of different crucifixes out there, depending on

592
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: which you created your adhering to. But the idea that

593
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: just in the background, just this, this one image that's

594
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: heavily charged with meaning and religious purpose that even if

595
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: you see it, uh, and you're not even consciously processing it,

596
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: it's jumping over your conscious thought into the unconscious and

597
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: affecting the way you're feeling, the way you're thinking, really

598
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: hacking your entire mindset. What about Pope John Paul the Second? Yes,

599
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: this was experiment from the University of Michigan and they

600
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: this one found that Christians felt less virtuous after subliminal

601
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: exposure to an image of Pope John Paul the Second.

602
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: I mean that, I mean it's because he has well

603
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: the ideas that there are impossible high standards to live

604
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: up to. Right, So some of our younger listeners may

605
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: not remember John Paul all that much, but he had

606
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: more of a you know, a peaceful grandfather, really kind

607
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: of demeanor for a lot of people. Well, and in

608
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: terms of popularity, isn't he more like a bit of

609
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: a rock star in terms and that the popetum? Yeah yeah, yeah, definitely,

610
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: so so people. So he was a very charged he

611
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: himself became a symbol and and merely glancing around and

612
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: catching it was influencing the way people thought about themselves. Now,

613
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: what about a computer lego? You think that could make

614
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: you feel more creative? Well, I don't. I don't know

615
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: about me because I'm not as much of a of

616
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: a Mac person. I mean, I think they make some

617
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: great products, but I'm not one of you. I don't

618
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: have the bumper sticker on my car or anything. But

619
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: the studies have found that when people are exposed to

620
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: that Mac symbol, they are more likely to think creatively.

621
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: And likewise, if they're exposed to a symbol of an

622
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: incandescent light bulb, the whole oh, I've got an idea

623
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: and then the light bulb lights up, that they're exposed

624
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: to that they're likely to think creative because these are

625
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: both symbols that are charged with ideas of creative endeavor.

626
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: And so just by glimpsing them, where were they hook

627
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: into our subconscious and make us think about that. Now,

628
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: that's a two thousand and eight study back fit Simmons

629
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: at all. So you have to wonder if two thousand

630
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: and thirteen does Apple have the same staying power. Again,

631
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: we're talking about fluidity of symbols and their meanings. Yeah,

632
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of stuff has happened that

633
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: the product itself is arguably taken a dive, and some

634
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: people's maybe not to die, but let's say I decline. Uh.

635
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, Steve Jobs passing the

636
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: results that made everyone really uh, you know, nostalgic for

637
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: Apple and really really you know, celebrate his contributions to

638
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: our technological life. And then of course you also have

639
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: had had varying bits of scandal about how our Apple

640
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: devices are made, which may also add new uh nuance

641
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: to the symbol itself. So again, these symbols become um

642
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: dependent on all the cultural things feeding into and they're

643
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: kind of like they're kind of like a tree growing

644
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: out of the ground. And the roots system runs throughout

645
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: our culture and and even into our history, and it

646
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: depends on how far those roots are going and what

647
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: they're sucking in, what kind of nutrients they're drawing from

648
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: our culture to depend on what the form of that

649
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: treat is. Yeah, it's interesting that that one symbol can

650
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: bring up so many different threads of thought because you

651
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: have the biography, if you have jobs, you have um

652
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: nations in their economics being powered or not powered by Apple.

653
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: You have people who are being affected just the level

654
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: of not only pay, but what they're exposed to in

655
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: terms of the technologies that they're using. And then you

656
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: have this idea of creativity all wrapped up into one

657
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: tiny logo. Yeah. So, so it's important to think about

658
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: these experience, not because we want to make a definite

659
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: point about crosses and Christians and Apple fans, but bear

660
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: in mind at all symbols are interacting with us to

661
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: varying levels like this, So we encounter them subconsciously or

662
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: even mind a little bit consciously, and they're having some

663
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: sort of an impact on us. If it's the McDonald's

664
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: golden arches, if it's the Coca cola or the pepsi symbol,

665
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: if it's a cross, if it is UH, if it

666
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: is the Star of David, if it's a swastika, whatever, Like,

667
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: we encounter these and they convey something to us. And

668
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: then if you start combining them, if you say, slap

669
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: a swastika on Ronald McDonald, then it's instantly going to

670
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: create some sort of new, unsteady symbol and convey that

671
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: to your mind. He just gave someone a really great

672
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: art project. Well, I'm sure it's probably already been. I

673
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: was somewhere, uh Paris on Potts and they have a

674
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: Ronald McDonald there that's made out of something. What is

675
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: it made out? Oh? Yeah, no, I know, it's a

676
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: corporate logo. Yeah, it's like an eight foot tall I mean,

677
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: Ronald McDonald in my eyes, has always been menacing, but

678
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: this one is particularly menacing. But yeah, not a corporate logos. Yeah.

679
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: So so in a way, it becomes kind of a

680
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: hyper sickle itself because you're combining these these various symbols

681
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: that stand for things into another symbol. And but then

682
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: you get into situations too if you combine too many symbols,

683
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 1: does it is it kind of like combining all about

684
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,479
Speaker 1: the Crayo crayons where you end up with just a blur.

685
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: You end up with things like uh, well like the

686
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: rose right Zamburdo echo points out the roses symbolized so

687
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: many different things, and it pretty much becomes a devoid

688
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: of meaning. It's kind of that the symbol has been

689
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: completely worn out to the point where it cannot convey

690
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: any true message anymore. One of the lines of philosophy

691
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: that I really like about this is from Louise alf Tusar.

692
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: Flave said that correctly, and he described our existence as

693
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: being tied to something called the ideology state apparatus and um,

694
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: it's this idea that we're always ready, we're always already,

695
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: and by always already, what he means is that we

696
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: are even before we're born. We're born into this expectation,

697
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: in this um embodiment of symbols. And so even when

698
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: you are just stating in your mother's uterus, you are

699
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: the symbol of whatever it is that the society has

700
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: going to put upon you. So if you're a girl,

701
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: you're going to be wrapped in pink and all sorts

702
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: of expectations. And it's a very interesting idea. Um. He

703
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: says that it's the way that we're defined, that we

704
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: are walking symbols, and essentially that allows us or I

705
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't say allows, but those expectations give us a roadmap

706
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: on how to behave. So it's it's this idea of

707
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: being both objectified but also subjected as um as a

708
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: placeholder in language. You know, it reminds me too of execution, torture,

709
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: and even imagined execution and torture as as we encountered

710
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: in our study of hell various sins or punished varying ways.

711
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: And there's a strong argument that any form of real

712
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: life torture or execution uh and any kind of imagined

713
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: form like those are all symbols that the idea of

714
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: executing somebody in a certain fashion, it's loaded with symbolic meaning,

715
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: especially when you deal with public executions, because you are

716
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: creating a symbol to to try and uh and illustrate

717
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: a point and convey a message to the popular. That's interesting.

718
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: So a hanging would be very different from having your

719
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: head cut off right with the guillotine. So yeah, what

720
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: does what does it mean? What does being drawn and

721
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: quartered mean? What is being thrown into a sack with

722
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 1: live animals mean? Like all of these bare certain symbolic

723
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: messages for the intended audience to be absorbed, right yeah,

724
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: And and I mean I could go on on this

725
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: kind of thing too. But it also reminds me of

726
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: the works of bosh Uh. You know all those uh,

727
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: those hellish apocalyptic sceneries where you have all these strange

728
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: monsters doing strange things and tormenting people and all that. Like,

729
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: even a scene like that, we don't understand a lot

730
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: of it. But to the the individuals who would be

731
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 1: who would have viewed that work of art at the time,

732
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: loaded with symbols known symbols uh and and so in

733
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: a sense that painting is speaking a language of symbols

734
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: to the viewer. And if you would like to actually

735
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: experience these symbols firsthand in the form of a Buddhist

736
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: hell theme park. We actually find out yesterday that there

737
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: is one in Singapore where you can go and look

738
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: at all these visual representations of what Buddhist hell might be. Yeah,

739
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: it looks amazing. And I know we have listeners all over.

740
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: So if any of you are in Singapore or end

741
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: up traveling there, or have traveled there and have visited

742
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: that place, do let us know all about it? Symbolic

743
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: rich that one? All? Right? Well, there you go, a

744
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: crash course in symbols. Uh. Like I said, if nothing else,

745
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: I just hope that this makes you a little more

746
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: alert to the power of symbols and how loaded our

747
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: lives are with symbols, how they're very they're they're very

748
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: useful to us. There are footholds in the mountain of

749
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: understanding that allows us to ascend and learn new things

750
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: and grapple with concepts that are really too much for

751
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: our our puny minds to to deal with without the

752
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: the the advantage of language. But then also about how

753
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: all these symbols around us are constantly influencing us and

754
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: arguably controlling us on that word, let's call over the robot,

755
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 1: all right, So this is an interesting when this comes

756
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: to us for Isabell von Finkelstein. She writes in about

757
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: our Sideshow Secrets episode, she says, hello listening to the

758
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: Sideshow Secrets episode. My grandma on my mom's side, was

759
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: apparently one of the headless women in Blackpool in England.

760
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: She also swallowed swords and red tarot. Apparently my great

761
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: grandpa ended up joining the circus at fourteen after stabbing

762
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: someone in the leg and running away. He ended up

763
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: with tuberculosis and then somehow was picked up by the carneys.

764
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: So my grandma was brought up with them. Given that

765
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: my family sways to the theatrical and creative side of life,

766
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: we weren't at all surprised that she had circus in

767
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: the jeans. It explained a lot. Ha ha. I just

768
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: wish I knew more of the history. I have a

769
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: copy of a newspaper cutting somewhere. If I can find it,

770
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: I'll forward it onto you again. Another great podcast. I

771
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: need to finish listening to it now, Thanks guys. Isabelle. Wow.

772
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: And I thought that my family's history was colorful. I

773
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: know that's that's amazing. And of course Blackpool, England is

774
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: um it's kind of a historically like a vacation area,

775
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: like a little bit of a of a Carney town

776
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: in of itself. And I know that professional wrestler Stephen

777
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: Regal hails from there. Yeah, and so you know there's

778
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: the wrestling that is a part of the carname. Yeah,

779
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: that's part of the whole tradition. Um. That also reminded

780
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: me of the book Geek Love. Did we bring that

781
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: up in the in the last podcast. Sometimes there's a

782
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: reference that's so key that we actually forget to bring

783
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: it up when we do the podcast And we're like, OK,

784
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: I believe we didn't mention that. Geek Love by Katherine

785
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: Dunn amazing fictionalized account of the carnival world and a

786
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: fictional family that um is created essentially by the parents

787
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: by messing with jeans to create sideshow kids. It sounds good.

788
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: I have not read it. I hear great things. I

789
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 1: know they locally did a production of it years ago.

790
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: It was like six months long, six hours. Yeah. Alright, Well,

791
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,959
Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to go ahead and uh

792
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: and leave you. But in the meantime, if you have

793
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: something you would like to share with us, uh, go

794
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: for it. Particularly related to symbols. What is your experience

795
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: with symbols, How do they how do you interact with them?

796
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: Are you conscious of what symbols are doing to you?

797
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: Is there a symbol that is particularly important to you

798
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: let us know about. I was talking earlier about how

799
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: a symbol instantly conveys something that would take you a

800
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: little a little more time to actually to explain in words.

801
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: So explain in words to us why a symbol is

802
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: important to you and what it means to you when

803
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: you look at it. We'd love to hear that kind

804
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: of thing and you can find us in all the

805
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: normal places. Our main website, of course, is stuff to

806
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. We're also on Facebook and

807
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: tumbler at stuff to Blow your Mind, and on Twitter

808
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: we go by the handle blow the Mind and then

809
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 1: oh YouTube mind stuff Show. That's where we are there. Okay,

810
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 1: And there are two things I'm interested in in hearing

811
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: from you guys about yea or nay on the th

812
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: H e versus th H. The second thing. Today there

813
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: was a story about Mattel and NASA creating a barbie

814
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: that's a Mars barbie who's clad in pink progress or no.

815
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: Let us know, and you can do so by sending

816
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: us an email at blow the Mind at discovery dot com.

817
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

818
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com.