1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: me your girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: I cannot express to you how much weather changes my mood. 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if I am the only one. I'm 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: surely not, because there is a thing called seasonal depression. 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: But my god, I need sunshine. I need blue skies, 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: I need birds chirping, because just dealing with this consistent doom, 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: scrolling headlines of death and despair and just the grifters 9 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: getting away with everything, you need something, you know, and 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: nature is my thing. So happy, happy spring that we're 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: beginning to see here in New York, and I hope 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: where you are, folks. I'm really excited about the conversation 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: that I'm bringing to today by author Mark Renk, who 14 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: is the author of the book The Random Factor, how 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: chance and luck profoundly shape our lives and the world 16 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: around us. I love this conversation because one of my 17 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: favorite movies, which we discuss briefly in this episode, is 18 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: Sliding Doors. It is a nineteen nineties classic with Gwyneth 19 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: Paltrow set in London, and you know their metro has 20 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: sliding doors as do most. And the movie shapes up 21 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: with her character making the train, and you follow that story, 22 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: and her character missing the train, and you follow that story. 23 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: And there are all of these moments that we have 24 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: every day in our lives that if something were to 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: have changed, we would not have met said person, talk 26 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: to a person, you know, the course of our lives shift. 27 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: And I think about that as it pertains to our 28 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: justice system, as it pertains to our education system. Think 29 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: about it, you know, I think about having had some 30 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: of the professors and teachers that I had in middle 31 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: school and high school and college. In some cases, if 32 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: I had had and this is you know, a personal one, 33 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: which is the only regret that I truly truly have 34 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: in my life thus far, because I try to live 35 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: a life where I don't have regrets and I can 36 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: see the lessons and the learnings from the decisions that 37 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: I've made, even if they have resulted in you know, 38 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: grief and trauma, because it is unavoidable if we are 39 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: really living life. But I had a professor in college. 40 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: And if you've been listening to me for years now, 41 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: you've heard this story. I'm declared political science major, and 42 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: my plan had always been to go from undergrad to 43 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: law school. I'd always wanted to be a lawyer. And 44 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: one of my political science professors, during his office hours, 45 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: told me that I wasn't smart enough to go to 46 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: law school. And you imagine this as this older white 47 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: man telling a young black woman who is still a teenager. 48 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: I think I was maybe like eighteen or nineteen at 49 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: the time, that I'm not smart enough to go to 50 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: law school. And that was a really defining moment in 51 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: my life and would be in my career because I 52 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: didn't go. I would again think about it when I 53 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: was in my mid twenties in my first job as 54 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a lobbyist, and everyone in you know, my office, was 55 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: a lawyer. We were all making the same money, except 56 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: I didn't have the law school debt. And I'd ask 57 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: my boss at that time, you know, do you think 58 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: you know? I keep him in and hawing about whether 59 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: or not I should go to law school, and he 60 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: was just like, Danielle, I'm going to tell you something. Honestly, 61 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: if law school were free, I would tell you to 62 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: go right now, just for the sheer knowledge of it. 63 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: I think that you would enjoy it. But the fact 64 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: is that the trajectory that you're on and lobbying and 65 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: working on the hill and bah blah like it. You know, 66 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: will just incur a lot of debt if you don't 67 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: plan on going to a firm and essentially dedicating the 68 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: next five to ten years to kind of paying off 69 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: the debt that you're going to incur. And I think 70 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: you would be miserable working at a firm. And it 71 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: was those sliding door moments in my life that kind 72 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: of set my life in the direction and my profession 73 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: in the direction that it went in. I talk to 74 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: lawyers all the time. I engage, you know, with legal 75 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: analysts and you know, and legal scholars and all of 76 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: those things. And it is the one regret that I 77 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: had that what would have happened if I had had 78 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: a different professor in college on that day that said 79 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: I think that you should go. I think it's going 80 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: to take a lot of work and effort, but like, 81 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: we need more minds like yours. Right, where would I 82 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: have ended up? What would I have done? Who would 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: I have become? And I think about that often. And 84 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: so this book by Mark Rang is really just interesting. 85 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: I think that it has us kind of take a 86 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: pause and think about our lives and think about the 87 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: trajectory that we've been on, whether we've made different pivots 88 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: and pauses and missteps and what have you, but how 89 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: it really does shape and change our lives. So that 90 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: conversation is coming up next, folks. I am very happy 91 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: to welcome back to wok Affi Daily, Mark Robert Renk, 92 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: who is the Herbert S. Hadley Professor of Social Welfare 93 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: at Washington University in Saint Louis and is the author 94 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: of the new book The Random Factor, How chance and 95 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: luck profoundly shape our lives and the world around us. Mark, 96 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: I think that the idea of randomness and chance is 97 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: so interesting to me. I was just saying to you 98 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: that one of my favorite movies from the nineties is 99 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: Sliding Doors with Gyneth Paltrow. And for folks who who 100 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: may or may not have ever seen it, you know, 101 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: it's a two track story of what happens when you know, 102 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: this character gets on the train versus missus the train 103 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: and how her life is completely different, and then we 104 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: as the audience realize which is real and what really 105 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: happened on that day with the train And talk to 106 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: us about this book. Your new book, and this idea 107 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: of randomness and how it plays against I guess our 108 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: thought in this country, at least what we've been indoctrinated 109 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: into thinking about as rugged individualism, and this idea of 110 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: pulling ourselves up and how that's counter to randomness and luck. 111 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, first of all, it's great to be with 112 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: you Danielle again. And yeah, that movie is one of 113 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: my favorites, and it really kind of exemplifies what the 114 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: book is about. So I, you know, a lot of 115 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: my prior work has been on issues of poverty and 116 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: inequality and things like that. But in an earlier book 117 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: on the American Dream, I interviewed a lot of different 118 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: people and sort of delved into their lives and how 119 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: their lives played out. And one of the things that 120 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 2: I hadn't anticipated was that so many people mentioned, you know, well, 121 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: if this hadn't happened, if that had, if this chance 122 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: kind of event, if I hadn't had that telephone call 123 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: or missed it or whatever it was, my life would 124 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: be really, really different. And I started looking around, and 125 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: there really hasn't been a lot written in the at 126 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: least of the social sciences on the role the chance 127 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: and luck and randomness play. So that's how I got 128 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: kind of involved in this, and it's just a fascinating subject. 129 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: And as you point out, I think we, particularly as 130 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: a Americans, tend to downplay the role of chance and luck. 131 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: You know, we we do it on our own, the 132 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: rugged individualist, you know, we have control of our destiny. Well, 133 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: you know what, it's it's not that simple. There's a 134 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: lot of randomness and chance things that affect our lives. 135 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: And so that's what the book really kind of plays 136 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: out in many different ways. So, you know, the first 137 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: part of the book is looking at kind of the 138 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: world around us and how history and natural science have 139 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 2: been shaped by that. Middle part of the book kind 140 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: of focuses on our lives and how they have been 141 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: shaped by chance and luck, And the last part of 142 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: the book talks about what we can learn from this 143 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: of living in a random world, what lessons can we learn, 144 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: which is which I think is also really interesting. 145 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: Because I think that this idea that I think even 146 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: just the idea of their being destiny right, of their 147 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: being universal unknowns right, and the fact that things sort 148 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: of just happen, right, and if they sort of just happened, 149 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: I think that that means for some people, then we're 150 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: not in control, right, Like we're not in control of 151 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: our destiny. It's all been pre written, right. But I 152 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: think that what you're discussing here is the fact that 153 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we even understand as our norm. 154 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: Let the one of the examples that you give is 155 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: around like penicillin, right, and the fact that how is 156 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: that discovered by accident? Right of leaving a Petri dish 157 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: out right and then figuring out what happened the next day. 158 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: And so this idea that randomness doesn't necessarily mean well, 159 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: I guess let me ask you this, Does randomness mean 160 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: that we're just not in control? Right in the in 161 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: the extreme sense of the thing, like I might as 162 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: well just lay down on the couch because everything is 163 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: already written. 164 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: Right right? 165 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: How do those two things play? 166 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, great question. So I think there's two ways 167 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: to think about that. One is that, yes, there's a 168 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: lot of randomness and chance that occurs in individuals' lives. 169 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: But the other side of that is what do you 170 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 2: do when a chance event happens to you? What do 171 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: you do when something lucky or unlucky? What is your 172 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 2: response to it, So it's not simply a fata complete. 173 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: I mean, there are lots of things we have no 174 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: control over, but we do have control over how we 175 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: respond to those things, So there's an interaction that's going on. 176 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: The Other thing that I talk about in the book is, 177 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: you know, I'm a sociologist by training, and so you know, 178 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: sociologists look at the role of social class and race 179 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: and gender and the effects that those have on our lives. 180 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 2: And those are all you know, absolutely those have a 181 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: strong effect. But the way that I describe it is 182 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: think of those as strong currents that are pushing our 183 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: lives in certain directions. But within those currents are all 184 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 2: kinds of ripples of randomness and ripples of chance. And 185 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: that's the way to think about how some of these 186 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: larger forces come fine with randomness to have an effect 187 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: in our lives. So it's not simply one or the other, 188 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: it's really both working together. And I think that's an 189 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 2: interesting way again to think about this. 190 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I think that what happens is 191 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: when we have conversations about destiny, about randomness, right about luck, 192 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: is that it is a lot more layered than people think. 193 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: It isn't as black and white. And I want to 194 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: get into the conversation around why you say that those 195 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: that happen to be in lower economic classes or status 196 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: like are seemingly more affected by quote unquote bad luck 197 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: than others. So let unpack that for us. 198 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's again a great question. And so so what 199 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: I talk about is that certain events that are chance 200 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: and random can have different implications depending on where you are, 201 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 2: for example, in terms of your social class, your economics 202 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: sort of well being. So folks that are you know, 203 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: lower income or in poverty, certain events, random events, for example, 204 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: just say your car breaks down, it's going to have 205 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: much more of a profound influence than it will for 206 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: somebody that has a lot of money. And this is 207 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: another interesting component I think in this book, which says 208 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 2: that chance and luck can actually exacerbate inequalities. You know, 209 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: Billy Holliday had the famous you know the song God 210 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: Bless the Child where where she said them that's God 211 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: shall get them, that's not shall lose. So the Bible says, 212 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 2: and it's still is news. And the idea is that 213 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: if you have advantages, probably you're going to have more 214 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: good breaks than if you don't have advantages where you're 215 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: going to have more bad breaks. And in this way, 216 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: chance and luck can widen the inequalities that we find 217 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 2: in society. And that's a really I think again, that's 218 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: a really interesting way to think about a lot of 219 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: people don't talk about that at all. So so that's 220 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: a way in which a chance event can have very 221 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: different implications depending on where you are sort of in 222 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: the social structure, you know. 223 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: And it's interesting when you use like kind of this 224 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: idea of let's say you know a car breaking down, right, 225 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: which is you know, don't necessarily know when that's going 226 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: to happen. Or let's say you're getting it, you get 227 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: a flat tire, right, Well, if I'm driving and I 228 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: get a flat tire, but I'm not a wage worker, right, 229 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: so I'm able to call in and say, hey, I'm 230 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: not going to make it into the office today. You know, 231 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: I had this happen, it is more likely, I guess. 232 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: The question is is it more likely then that because 233 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: you're at a higher economic status, there's a bit you 234 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: have more control in some sense right of how you're 235 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: perceived and how a situation will be taken, where it 236 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: can be still an inconvenience, but not catastrophic. 237 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: Right, That's exactly right. So in other words, think of 238 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: it as having the person with more resources, it just 239 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: has more leeway in terms of dealing with that chance event. 240 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: Whereas if you are right living on the edge and 241 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: you're you know, a wage worker and you've got to 242 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: get into work and this happens to you, it can 243 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: be catastrophic. You can lose your job. You know, that 244 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: might be it. And so again the same event, the 245 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: flat tire, but playing out very differently. Another example that 246 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: I give in the book is coming down with a 247 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: medical diagnosis of say cancer or something like that, you know, 248 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: which is you know, certainly awful. But if you have 249 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: the resources, you probably got an earlier diagnosis, you probably 250 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: have access to more healthcare resources. Then if you're in 251 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: poverty where you might not have that, And so the 252 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: same event plays out different The same chance event plays 253 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: out differently. We know that actually a lot of cancers 254 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: are simply random. It's random mutation. You know, there's an 255 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: environmental effect and there's a genetic effect, but there's also 256 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: very much of a random effect. 257 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: There, you know. I also think about homelessness, right, I 258 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: think about homelessness in the sense that you have the 259 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: people that will say, well, I'm not going to give 260 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: my hard earned money to this homeless person on the 261 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: street over here with a sign they need to quote 262 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: unquote get a job. But the way in which our 263 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: system is set up is that you need to have 264 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: a phone number, you need to have an address, you 265 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: need to have all of these proofs of identity right 266 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: in order to even be considered. And so again, if 267 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: you have had the unfortunate luck right of losing housing 268 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: and you're in and out of shelters or on the street, 269 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: the idea that you're going to be able to pick 270 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: yourself up and move into a different economic station is 271 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: almost nonexistent. 272 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: Right, And this gets back to sort of your original 273 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: point about rugged individualism that we think of. You know, well, 274 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 2: just anybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and 275 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: so on and so forth. And what you're pointing out is, no, 276 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: that's not necessarily the case. That you know, depending on 277 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: where you are in society, there's a lot of forces 278 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: and factors that may be working against you and make 279 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: it much more difficult. You know, one of the things 280 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: I talk about in earlier work on poverty is. I 281 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 2: give the example of sort of an altered game of monopoly. 282 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: So we often think about you know, let's imagine there's 283 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: three players. They all start out with fifteen hundred dollars. 284 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: They you know, who's going to win and lose. Well, 285 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: there's going to be some luck involved the roll of 286 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: the dice and some skill involved. Okay, but now let's 287 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: imagine an altered game of monopoly, which I would say 288 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: is much more of the way the United States operates 289 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: in other countries. Player one starts out with five thousand dollars, 290 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: player two with fifteen hundred, and player three with two 291 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty dollars, and maybe player one has some 292 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 2: properties too. Well, we're still going to have the same rules, 293 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: we're still going to roll the dice, but given those 294 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: prior advantages, player one is going to win almost all 295 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 2: of the games because it's just stacked against players two 296 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 2: and three. And that's really the reality. So again, you've 297 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: got chance in luck playing out, but the implications are 298 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: much different. 299 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: I mean, you just laid out like that's the difference 300 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: between equality and equity. Right reading about that, I'm I'm like, 301 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: that's like, that's that's it. Right there, which is equality. 302 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: Is like, well, we all will have the same chance 303 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: to roll the dice, right, isn't that Isn't that fair? Well, 304 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: it's like, well no, because we are all starting in 305 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: a different place with more or less amounts of money. 306 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: So what difference does it make if we have the 307 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: same chance to roll the dice if we're actually not 308 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: starting in the same place. 309 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 2: Right, It's so funny, you should say, because I just 310 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: like an hour ago, is reading an article about equity 311 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 2: and equality. It is so funny. But that's exactly right. 312 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 2: I mean, this is a good example of that of 313 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: that equality and equity are quite different in this context. 314 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I you know, I think about it too. 315 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: And let me ask you this. You know, because you're 316 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: in a in a in a university setting. You know, 317 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: we're looking at right now at tax on diversity, equity 318 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: and inclusion, right that are that are coming in and 319 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: they're in they're targeting universities, and they're targeting you know, 320 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: thought centers and intellectualism, which is what universities and colleges 321 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 1: are supposed to be. And the idea around diversity, equity 322 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: and inclusion is just that to create more inclusion, to 323 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: create more opportunity from those that have been barred from 324 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: admission into into different universities and colleges, into different industries 325 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: of employment, and creating some way, right, some path forward 326 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: of equity, and it not just being about the roll 327 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: of the dice. We need to be more intentional about 328 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: who has been included and excluded. How does it How 329 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: does this randomness right and this idea of you know, 330 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: of D and I and where we are with the 331 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: pushback kind of play into how policies are created again 332 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: around this rugged individual like, oh, everyone should be able 333 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: to quote unquote pull themselves up, but we know factually 334 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: that that is not the case. 335 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: Right, And so here's here's an interesting sort of angle 336 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: on this, and that is, you know, we've been talking 337 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: about rugged individualism. The other thing that that America has 338 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 2: really put a strong emphasis on is the idea that 339 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: we are a meritocracy, that you get what you deserve. 340 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: And in the book I talk about there's some really 341 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: interesting analysis that show that those who have extreme wealth 342 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: as well as those who experience poverty, there's a lot 343 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 2: of luck in Now that's not to say that, you know, 344 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: hard work and individualism aren't important, but for those who 345 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: really make it. There's a strong luck component. For example, 346 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: think about the entertainment industry. If don't to anybody there, 347 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 2: they will always tell you if I hadn't gotten that break, 348 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be where I am today. And that's just 349 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: sort of a little example of that. So, you know, 350 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: we think, well, we live in a meritocracy and people 351 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: get what they deserve. Well, you know what, with chance 352 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: and luck, people don't always get what they deserve. Maybe 353 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: they get more than they deserve, or maybe they don't 354 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: get what they should deserve. And so, in going back 355 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: to your point about policy and thinking about policies, one 356 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 2: of the things that this injects into the discussion is 357 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: the idea of the importance of a social safety net 358 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: and social insurance because what happens. You know, this is 359 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: my work on poverty, which shows that most Americans will 360 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: experience poverty at some point in their lives. And people say, 361 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: how can that be. The reason is, over thirty or 362 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: forty years, things happen to people out of the blue, 363 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: losing a job, getting sick, a family splitting up. And 364 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: when those things happen in the United States, there's not 365 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: a lot to protect people from poverty. So one of 366 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: the things that I one of the big arguments I 367 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,360 Speaker 2: make is that because of chance and luck, and particularly 368 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: bad luck, we should think about having a robust social 369 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: safety net to protect people when these things happen. And 370 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: European countries do a much better job of that than 371 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: we do in the United States. 372 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: You know, And I think about it too as you're saying, 373 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: that's what just popped into my mind, right, which was 374 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: a social experiment in and of itself, is COVID, right Lee. 375 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: So here we have this global health pandemic hits every 376 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: single continent, hits you know, every single person in a 377 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: different way. But those again who had the privilege and 378 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: the ability and the economic status to be able to 379 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: work from home versus those whose work were quired them 380 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: to be in person, to put themselves in harms way 381 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: for folks who had maybe some cushion in terms of 382 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: the ability that if they were to lose their job, 383 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: they weren't going to lose their homes. Or we saw 384 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: food lines right in communities and in neighborhoods that we 385 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: never even knew had food pantries, right, And so again 386 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: it was this randomness to some extent of this global 387 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: health pandemic, but how it hit. We couldn't look away 388 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: and say that people didn't need help, like, oh, you 389 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: were getting what you deserved in terms of the outcome here. 390 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: Right right, right, No, that's a great example. It's like, yeah, 391 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: nobody deserved what happened with COVID and that was a 392 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 2: very and again it was actually very random. There was 393 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: a mutation, you know, it started in the fish market 394 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: in China and stuff like that and spread, but the 395 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: impact that that had was very It had a very 396 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: different impact depending on where you were again in society. 397 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: So again it's another example, and it's example of things. 398 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: Bad things can happen out of the blue, and what 399 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: we should think about is, Okay, why don't we put 400 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: some things in place to protect people. That's the whole idea, 401 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: For example, of insurance. This is why you buy home 402 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: insurance or automobile insurance. You don't think I'm going to 403 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: have an accident tomorrow, but you do think I might 404 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: have an accident at some point. My homemate burned down, 405 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: and I want to have protection if that should happen. 406 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: And that's the same idea of a social safety net 407 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: and having kind of a robust social safety net. 408 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: How do you think that we go about and I 409 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: feel like this happens probably every presidential election cycle, but 410 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: particularly this one, where you have Republicans, for instance, talking 411 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: about taking away social safety nets, talking about letting, you know, 412 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: folks essentially roll the dice on their life and if it, 413 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you're not wealthy, then go with God. Right. 414 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: But it's this idea that again, people get what they deserve. 415 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: So if you are poor, that is of your own doing. 416 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: It's not the government's quote unquote responsibility to do anything 417 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: for you. And then again on the flip side of that, 418 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: if you are wealthy, well then you must be a genius, 419 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: right and you you know what I'm saying, and so 420 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: and and celebrated in that way, and we equate that 421 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: wealth with celebrity and celebration the way that we equate 422 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 1: poverty with you know, damnation and you know and pity. 423 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean absolutely. You know, I've we talked 424 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: earlier about you know, I've done a lot of work 425 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 2: on poverty and inequality and the whole idea of you know, 426 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: deservedness underlies the whole issue of poverty, as it does 427 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: with wealth. I mean, there's no question about it. And 428 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: that's why this goes counter to that story. This is saying, 429 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 2: you know what, it's not simply a meritocracy and people 430 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: get what they deserve. There's a lot of randomness involved. 431 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: And you know, just as an example, I've talked to 432 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: hundreds of people. You know, I'm pretty dire economic straits, 433 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: and to say that, you know, they deserve what happened 434 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: to them is ridiculous. These are folks that work just 435 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: as hard as me or you or anybody else. They 436 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: want the best for their family and their kids. But 437 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 2: they were dealt a bad hand. They got a bad hand. 438 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: And you know, it's not to say that. Of course, 439 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: there is such a thing as as agency and motivation 440 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: and all that stuff, but we need to put it 441 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: into this wider context. And that's that. I just think 442 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: that's so important. So, but you're exactly right. I mean, 443 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 2: there's this story of you know, well, folks that you 444 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: know are poor deserve it, and folks that are wealthy 445 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: deserve it too. And therefore the position that comes from 446 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: that is, well, then we don't need to have social 447 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: policies to address this because it's your own problem, it's 448 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 2: not mine. 449 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: Right, And I think that that again it goes back 450 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: to the top about rugged individualism versus the responsibility of community. 451 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: Right that if I can put the onus on you 452 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: to make your to make your life better, then I 453 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: don't take I don't have any shared responsibility and how 454 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: your life turns. 455 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 2: Out exactly that's exactly right. So it's it relieves me 456 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 2: of any responsibility. Look, it's your problem, not mine, and 457 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 2: therefore I don't need to pay taxes to support you. 458 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 2: So that's the other thing, you know, And again this 459 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: is this is not the reality. Like I'm into. I'm 460 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 2: into sort of research and evidence, and I can tell 461 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: you that is not the reality of the situation. 462 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, well, Mark, what are your hopes for the 463 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: random factor and what folks take away from your new book? 464 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I hope it does exceedingly well, yes, 465 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: let's keep our fingers crossed. And yeah, you know, I 466 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: think the message you know what I said at the 467 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: very beginning, it's sort of at the end of the book. 468 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 2: I have a couple chapters where I stop and I say, well, okay, 469 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: if you have this idea that there's a lot of randomness, 470 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: what can we learn from this, How can we better 471 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: ourselves as a result, you know, And there's many example 472 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 2: sort of lessons like you but one is just to 473 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: have more empathy towards folks and to realize, you know, 474 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: there but for the grace of God go I also 475 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: to have a bit of humility, like you know, maybe 476 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: I had some good breaks and I should be kind 477 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: of humble about that. And as instead of saying, well, 478 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: I deserve everything I get. So I think there's there's 479 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: there's a lot of really interesting components there, and I 480 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 2: hope folks, you know, pick up on this. And I 481 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: must say, I think it's a great read. I think 482 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 2: it's it's so fascinating and people I think will really 483 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: enjoy it. 484 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: I love it, folks. The book is the random factor, 485 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: how chance and luck profoundly shape our lives and the 486 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: world around us. It is out now. Mark, always a 487 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: great conversation when you come, always always getting me thinking 488 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: and in different ways. So I hope that you'll you'll 489 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: come back again soon. 490 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: I'd love to come back, Danyelle. And my last words 491 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: of wisdom are to count your lucky stars. 492 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 3: Very I love that. 493 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, Dear friends on woke 494 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: app as always Power to the people and to all 495 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: the people. Power, Get woke and stay woke as fuck.