Speaker 1: Now really.
Speaker 2: Really now, really well, and welcome to Really No Really,
Speaker 2: with Jess Alexander and Peter Tilden, who invite you to
Speaker 2: join the campaign, roll the D twenty, acquire experience points,
Speaker 2: and please your dungeon master by subscribing to our show.
Speaker 3: And if that.
Speaker 2: Introduction left you lost and confused, then you've probably never
Speaker 2: experienced the joys of Dungeons and Dragons, the legendary tabletop
Speaker 2: role playing game featuring elves, dwarves, wizards, fighters, and legions
Speaker 2: of dedicated fans. This worldwide phenomenon is currently celebrating its
Speaker 2: fiftieth anniversary Really No Really. Over its five decades, the
Speaker 2: game has been both hailed and vilified. It has been
Speaker 2: the source of claims about satanic panic, and it's also
Speaker 2: been featured on Netflix's Stranger Things and a feature film
Speaker 2: starring Chris Pine.
Speaker 3: But what is this game really about?
Speaker 2: And how can it be more popular than ever after
Speaker 2: five decades? After much an from the self identified nerds
Speaker 2: on our production staff, the guys bravely ventured into the
Speaker 2: never explored realms of D and D with one of
Speaker 2: the game's quintessential experts, John Peterson, who studies the history
Speaker 2: of games especially tabletop role playing games. And so let's
Speaker 2: Sally forth the Brave Adventurers.
Speaker 4: Here's Jason and Peter.
Speaker 5: So this episode.
Speaker 6: Usually, in a really no really episode, one of us,
Speaker 6: as we hear about something, we you know, encounter something
Speaker 6: that makes us go huh, really no, really really and so,
Speaker 6: but usually one of us will then do some research.
Speaker 4: Usually I'm going to give it up.
Speaker 6: You use research, so by the time we meet the guest,
Speaker 6: you have at least a level of understanding, some knowledge
Speaker 6: of the inner workings or the complexities of the thing
Speaker 6: we're talking about. Way to start formulating questions to engage
Speaker 6: and draw out the vital information.
Speaker 7: So is this really know really? The really no really
Speaker 7: is Jason and I realized it's the fiftieth anniversary of
Speaker 7: Dungeons and Drags, And.
Speaker 4: The really know really is that we don't know. We
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 7: About this and so and then I start researching and
Speaker 7: I didn't realize. I guess the one of the companies
Speaker 7: that owned this previously was called the Wizards of something where.
Speaker 7: And I'm going, yeah, but you're just reading a line
Speaker 7: because I'm trying to prep for both of us, And
Speaker 7: I'm going, so the Wizards of SO and so release
Speaker 7: the thing, and I'm going, who are the Wizards of So?
Speaker 5: I know nothing.
Speaker 6: I don't know who they are. I don't know what
Speaker 6: the thing is. I don't know what they released. I
Speaker 6: don't know how they found it to release it to
Speaker 6: begin with. Now, my son Gabe, actually my son knowing too,
Speaker 6: but Gabe, it really plays this and our own David
Speaker 6: Guggenheim is very into this. I've watched a little bit
Speaker 6: and it seems to me, and I don't want to
Speaker 6: be Jordan anyway, it seems like a bunch of people
Speaker 6: just jerking. You know, I'm an amp, I'm a wizard,
Speaker 6: I'm a frog, I'm a okay, I'm gonna storm the castle,
Speaker 6: roll the dice.
Speaker 4: You didn't make it, says who, says me.
Speaker 5: I so, so, here's how I started this.
Speaker 7: This was my introduction, says The first thing I asked
Speaker 7: David Googenheim is how do you win?
Speaker 5: And he goes, oh, you don't win, right, I gotta go, Yeah,
Speaker 5: I got I gotta go. You don't win.
Speaker 6: You're just it's not a game in the sense of
Speaker 6: a game. It's not it's a lifestyle choice. It's a
Speaker 6: I don't know what it is.
Speaker 7: It seems to be a game that you play for
Speaker 7: all eternities, right, And I said to David, and.
Speaker 4: Since prisoners on death row play it, you literally play
Speaker 4: it to.
Speaker 7: Your dough by the way, yeah, David goes, you know,
Speaker 7: prisoners on death row play it.
Speaker 5: I said, that's because there was a death right. They
Speaker 5: got nothing else, thinking, how what are you doing in yourself?
Speaker 7: I'm whittling a dice a die a twenty sided for
Speaker 7: twelve years, right, So of course they're playing it.
Speaker 6: They'll play with it, honestly, by the way, we're being funny.
Speaker 6: But I don't Maybe I would, Maybe if I understood it,
Speaker 6: I would enjoy it.
Speaker 7: Maybe our fantasy games. Let me just say I don't
Speaker 7: get it. Let me just say what I see is
Speaker 7: can you see the two of us sitting for four hours?
Speaker 4: I like improv. I do improv.
Speaker 6: I play characters for a living, and you take me
Speaker 6: to the groundlings on the best night.
Speaker 4: Thirty minutes in, I.
Speaker 6: Go, okay, got it, bode thout you for that's go home.
Speaker 7: It's the best improv I've ever seen.
Speaker 5: That sands and out.
Speaker 4: Not on death row.
Speaker 5: That's wrong.
Speaker 4: I go, I'm dead and moving up.
Speaker 7: And by the way, if you're in what's like a
Speaker 7: tough prison, right now, K, you're right?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 5: Rikers? Hey did you hear Johnson Els? I mean does
Speaker 5: that get you?
Speaker 7: What does that get you? So let's say hi to
Speaker 7: our guest. Let's welcome our guests, because.
Speaker 6: We were and I can't listen, we're making a lot
Speaker 6: of fun.
Speaker 4: This guy is the real deal, and there's answers to this.
Speaker 7: We're making fun of us though, because obviously we're we're
Speaker 7: fifty years later, apparently to the part you're celebrating f.
Speaker 6: Two years and we're going on, I'm still playing hearts
Speaker 6: and the part cheesy, I.
Speaker 7: Didn't know broken the code on Monopola, right, So you
Speaker 7: get who you're dealing with here. Yeah, okay, So we're
Speaker 7: gonna meet John Peterson, who actually studies the history of
Speaker 7: games in general, but especially tabletop role playing games and
Speaker 7: war games, both of which is this.
Speaker 4: His first book has just been re released.
Speaker 6: It's called Playing at the World two E Volume one,
Speaker 6: The Invention of Dungeons and Dragons. It's been called the
Speaker 6: history the first serious history of.
Speaker 4: The development of of D and T.
Speaker 6: I'm going to use the lingo now D and D.
Speaker 6: He co authored the Hugo Award finalist Dungeons and Dragons
Speaker 6: Art and Arcana, and the New York Times best selling
Speaker 6: official Dungeons and Dragons cookbook Heroes Feast.
Speaker 4: He's also worked on trivial pursuit Dungeons and Dragons Ultimate Edition.
Speaker 1: UH.
Speaker 6: He's contributed to numerous academic anthologies and pop culture websites,
Speaker 6: alluding three things I've never heard of, Polygon fired, and
Speaker 6: Boeing Boeing, I don't.
Speaker 4: Live in.
Speaker 6: They talk about alternate universes. There's one coming on to
Speaker 6: our screen right now. So let's John to John Peterson.
Speaker 7: Hello John, shoot together one two three, Hello John.
Speaker 8: Hello, Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 6: We're so delighted now. Already already I'm learning things.
Speaker 4: You ready for?
Speaker 6: What my first observation that's going to be If you're
Speaker 6: watching on YouTube and you can see the portal at
Speaker 6: which we're looking at John, his home is nicer than mine.
Speaker 4: So already something is not right. Something's going wrong and
Speaker 4: is not right.
Speaker 6: This guy is pretending he's a dwarf at the battlements.
Speaker 6: I'm trying to work for a living, and look what
Speaker 6: he's got versus what I'm here with you. What's wrong
Speaker 6: with this picture.
Speaker 8: So let me be clear doing D and D history,
Speaker 8: there is no money in it.
Speaker 4: I promise.
Speaker 5: Congratulations.
Speaker 7: Your parents must be thrilling exactly well. I must love
Speaker 7: this on a level that's out of this world.
Speaker 8: I am a bit of a fan, and I guess
Speaker 8: some one of those people who feels like D and
Speaker 8: D was one of the signature cultural innovations of the
Speaker 8: late twentieth century and that it has led to so
Speaker 8: may it's been so profoundly influential, and you know, not
Speaker 8: maybe not the level of like the Internet or something, okay,
Speaker 8: but like in terms of its pervasive just depiction of
Speaker 8: a new form of entertainment. Yes, D and D matters.
Speaker 5: So can you talk if you can encapsulate for people
Speaker 5: like where it came from, how I know it are
Speaker 5: going to be bored. So I don't want to go
Speaker 5: too long.
Speaker 7: But people who don't know it, I'd love to be
Speaker 7: impressed with the stars.
Speaker 4: Starts came, it's got It must have a terrific origin.
Speaker 5: The argent story of the guys who started, et cetera.
Speaker 8: If you still it, yeah, I can.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 8: Back in nineteen seventy four, there are two guys who
Speaker 8: are Midwesterners who are really into war games. So you
Speaker 8: got to kind of understand what wargames are to get
Speaker 8: where D and D started. So, wargames are these conflict
Speaker 8: simulation games where usually what you're doing is you're replaying
Speaker 8: like one of the Great Battles of Napoleon, right, and
Speaker 8: you imagine you're the commander and you can move around
Speaker 8: little chits on a board, and could you win Waterloo
Speaker 8: in a way that Napoleon couldn't write?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 8: And like so these guys are really into games like that.
Speaker 8: And you know, at around the same time, though, in
Speaker 8: the nineteen sixties, Tolkien and sword and sorcery fiction in
Speaker 8: particular started to become like profoundly popular, right, and there
Speaker 8: was this like chocolate and peanut butter moment where people said, Okay,
Speaker 8: can we take this conflict simulation stuff, which is all
Speaker 8: based on like mathematical models and rolling dice and figuring
Speaker 8: out things like how good this kind of unit is
Speaker 8: against that kind of unit and apply that to things
Speaker 8: like orcs and ballrogs and entts and wizards and all
Speaker 8: the things that would be familiar from Tolkien. Yeah, so
Speaker 8: really look at it like it kind of started from
Speaker 8: that and this began for Gary Gygax, one of the
Speaker 8: two co creators, in nineteen seventy one, with a little
Speaker 8: pamphlet he published that was called Chainmail, And this was
Speaker 8: kind of the first book you could buy that had
Speaker 8: like systems for how to be Gandolf, Like what you
Speaker 8: know if you want to put him in a conflict
Speaker 8: simulation context, Like how many hits could Gandalf take in
Speaker 8: a fight before he dies? When he casts a spell?
Speaker 8: You know, how many works will be slain by it?
Speaker 8: Things like that, And this then gave birth to a
Speaker 8: whole bunch of fascinating activities that started to bring things
Speaker 8: from the army level down to the individual level, where
Speaker 8: instead of really thinking about I'm commanding an army where
Speaker 8: I'll have wizards and I'll have a bunch of you know,
Speaker 8: soldiers with swords and axes and bows and things like that,
Speaker 8: down to Okay, each of the players is going to
Speaker 8: have an individual character, and this individual character might be
Speaker 8: a wizard, and they'll have a name, and they'll have
Speaker 8: a set of spells they can cast. And the individual
Speaker 8: players then take on the roles of these characters and
Speaker 8: pursue a story in which they adventure in a world. Famously,
Speaker 8: they go down into these dungeons that appear in the
Speaker 8: name of the game, where they'll fight monsters and get
Speaker 8: treasure and become more powerful as a result of it.
Speaker 8: And this was the birth of what we came to
Speaker 8: call a role playing game. And role playing games become
Speaker 8: just so such a big business, not just on the
Speaker 8: table top, but they quickly kind of jumped into computers.
Speaker 8: At the time D and D came out in nineteen
Speaker 8: seventy four, computer games are pretty rudimentary, right, but like
Speaker 8: you know, by nineteen seventy five, there were already people
Speaker 8: adapting D and D four computers and pretty much any
Speaker 8: triple A game that you look at today. And these
Speaker 8: are games that make you know, billions of dollars, right,
Speaker 8: that has that DNA in it all. It owes back
Speaker 8: to that nineteen seventy four original set of rules in
Speaker 8: which you got to play a character, be a protagonist, adventure,
Speaker 8: get more powerful, and have a netpic quest.
Speaker 7: When did when did it did it take off like
Speaker 7: immediately or was it a couple of years down the world?
Speaker 7: Because I saw one of the things that exploded it
Speaker 7: was satanism, witchcraft. Did the controversy explode.
Speaker 8: It definitely it did, and I mean the controversy kind
Speaker 8: of built gradually. But look at it like this, this
Speaker 8: is a really small insular hobby. When it started, these
Speaker 8: guys at this company called Tactical Studies Rules that published
Speaker 8: D and D. Originally they originally printed like a thousand
Speaker 8: copies of this and they weren't going to sure they
Speaker 8: were going to sell those, right, And like it built
Speaker 8: a little bit, like by nineteen seventy six seventy seven,
Speaker 8: it penetrated into college campuses. It was becoming kind of
Speaker 8: an underground thing. But then just one of these historical
Speaker 8: accidents happened, which is in nineteen seventy nine, there was
Speaker 8: a kid who was in East Lansing, Michigan. He was
Speaker 8: a university student who disappeared. His name was James Dallas
Speaker 8: Egbert the third, And when he disappeared from his college campus,
Speaker 8: people deuilt this theory because they heard been playing this
Speaker 8: bizarre game called Dungeons and Dragons that he had come
Speaker 8: to believe the fantasy was real. That he had got
Speaker 8: on down into the steam tunnels beneath the university and
Speaker 8: was trying to like find orgs to killer something down there,
Speaker 8: got lost, trapped, diluted, possibly died, and this led to
Speaker 8: this huge mainstream press just sensationalless coverage that simultaneously demonized
Speaker 8: the game and made it immensely popular the way that
Speaker 8: like only a weird historical accident like that could.
Speaker 6: So, John, I just want to go back, because again,
Speaker 6: please forgive me, I know so little about this if
Speaker 6: I'm asking.
Speaker 4: Just banal, rudimentary questions.
Speaker 6: But it sounds like somebody came up with, Okay, here's
Speaker 6: how we're gonna here's rules one through one hundred of
Speaker 6: how if you want to play this game that's played.
Speaker 6: But it sounds like that those rules are very much
Speaker 6: player generated in some ways as well, especially when I
Speaker 6: watch people play it. And I'll give you the goofy example,
Speaker 6: but it seems like I'm rubber, you're glue. Somebody goes,
Speaker 6: I'm rubber, your glue. Everything you say bounces off me
Speaker 6: and sticks to you, and the guy who it sticks
Speaker 6: to goes, yeah, but I cast a spell on me
Speaker 6: so things don't stick. They actually become animated and they
Speaker 6: attack your eyes. Oh yeah, well my eyes are protected
Speaker 6: by advisor that I won one. And you go, okay,
Speaker 6: well this is just I'm just just trading a horse
Speaker 6: bucky back and forth. I mean what a is the
Speaker 6: game grown by the players who then generate variations on
Speaker 6: how to do this, And if so, how does a
Speaker 6: group of gamers or a dungeon master keep that sort
Speaker 6: of playground version of conflict from happening.
Speaker 8: Well, so you said the two keywords, they're dungeon master.
Speaker 8: So you need to think about a game of D
Speaker 8: and D like there are two classes of participants. There's
Speaker 8: a dungeon master and then there are players. And the
Speaker 8: dungeon master doesn't have like a character. The dungeon master's
Speaker 8: job is to play the world. And moreover, the dungeon
Speaker 8: master's job is to be the author already on what
Speaker 8: is true about the system and about what what you
Speaker 8: can and can't do. So a player says, I'm rubbing
Speaker 8: your glue, the dungeon master is the one who says, well, no,
Speaker 8: this is the army you're wearing, this is the equipment
Speaker 8: you have, and this orc stabs you and you are
Speaker 8: now dead, right, and so you need in these games,
Speaker 8: and in the computer version, of course, the computer plays
Speaker 8: this role for you. Right, you don't really have a
Speaker 8: dungeon master. The computer does the dungeon mastering, but like
Speaker 8: the you know, the crux of the game is that
Speaker 8: the players inhabit the characters, and the characters can attempt anything.
Speaker 8: This is a really crucial thing about it. Like anything
Speaker 8: you could describe as a possible action, you can propose
Speaker 8: it as what your character does, and it's then up
Speaker 8: to the dungeon master to tell you what the result
Speaker 8: of doing that will be, whether it's it's what you intended,
Speaker 8: whether it's something you didn't intent. You're like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 8: going to cast a grease spell. And my hope in
Speaker 8: casting this grease spell in this room is that every
Speaker 8: orc is You're going to be on slippery ground and
Speaker 8: they're all going to fall down, and like this is
Speaker 8: going to work and it's going to be great. The
Speaker 8: dungeon master says, fantastic. But you forgot that there are
Speaker 8: these fires on the side of the room, and in fact,
Speaker 8: you and the orcs and everybody you know is now
Speaker 8: in this immense conflagation, right, so somebody keeps track of
Speaker 8: the state of the world, and you know, the players
Speaker 8: merely have the power to state their intentions. The dungeon
Speaker 8: master has the power to say what happened?
Speaker 5: Whose world are they looking at as a guide?
Speaker 8: Well, so the dungeon master job is also to describe
Speaker 8: the world. Think about this way, you know, they're kind
Speaker 8: of sounding boards. The dungeon master and the player are
Speaker 8: at the start of the game. The dungeon master says,
Speaker 8: this is the situation. So, Jason Peter, You've entered the
Speaker 8: tavern and the two of you see in front of
Speaker 8: you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table,
Speaker 8: and the map is laid out before him. What do
Speaker 8: you do? Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the
Speaker 8: two of you see in front of you a shadowy
Speaker 8: figure who is sitting at a table, and the map
Speaker 8: is laid out before him. What do you do? This
Speaker 8: is the classic, you know, way that a situation might start,
Speaker 8: right and in response to what do you do? Then, Jason,
Speaker 8: what do you do? You saw that figure? You don't
Speaker 8: need to know anything more about this game than what
Speaker 8: I've told you right now. You guys, walk into the tavern.
Speaker 8: You see that shadowy figure at the map there, he's
Speaker 8: got some gold coins on it.
Speaker 7: What do you do?
Speaker 6: And I would say, I go over and ask the
Speaker 6: stranger what he's looking at, and may I look.
Speaker 8: As well precisely and we just continue from there. He
Speaker 8: tells you this is a map, and you know. He
Speaker 8: then says, if you're so interested, like I personally can't
Speaker 8: go there because it's like super dangerous, but perhaps the
Speaker 8: two of you would like to adventure there where. I
Speaker 8: understand that there's a mountain of these coins available, and
Speaker 8: there may be some sort of guardian or curse or
Speaker 8: something like that. But I'm sure the two of you
Speaker 8: can work that out once you look into it. Here's
Speaker 8: where the places in the map.
Speaker 7: Go for it, John, But what okay? As soon as
Speaker 7: you said that it's fascinating sitting there with the map
Speaker 7: and some gold coins, what's my goal? What's my motivation?
Speaker 7: You know? When I said to David Gringham, we're going
Speaker 7: to bring him in a second, because he does play
Speaker 7: this and he is somewhat expert at it. If I
Speaker 7: don't know what my motivation is and there's no winning
Speaker 7: and there's no I'm just getting points, why would I
Speaker 7: engage If I don't know what direction where I want
Speaker 7: to end up? How would I know where questions to
Speaker 7: ask or where to go? You know, I may say back,
Speaker 7: I want to watch other people interact with him first
Speaker 7: and see if he's a threat. I don't know what
Speaker 7: I'm doing because I don't know enough about what I'm
Speaker 7: trying to accomplish.
Speaker 8: Well, I'd be very wise for actually to sit back
Speaker 8: and watch and figure out what's up with this guy
Speaker 8: before you go up and incredulously believe his story. But
Speaker 8: you did mention, you know, yeah, your job in a
Speaker 8: game like this, the obvious goal is just to gain
Speaker 8: more power. The obvious goal is to gain more treasure,
Speaker 8: gain more power, advance, And the way to advance is
Speaker 8: to adventure, and through adventuring you gain what are called
Speaker 8: experience points, and if you gain certain experience points thresholds
Speaker 8: for your character, you advance in level. And this concept,
Speaker 8: by the way, has become a kind of influential one,
Speaker 8: like it's hard to play a computer game that does
Speaker 8: not have some element of that in it, right where
Speaker 8: through the more you apply kind of the better you prove.
Speaker 8: And this, you know, experience and power then makes you
Speaker 8: ready for you know, even greater adventurers to tackle even
Speaker 8: greater adversaries. So that's the ostensible goal.
Speaker 4: Of the game.
Speaker 7: I'm curious to not knowing details. But I want to
Speaker 7: bring David in the second. All of a sudden, I
Speaker 7: look at trigger warnings and stuff. This is a game
Speaker 7: that was if you look at the culture fifty years
Speaker 7: ago and think about what it was and how people spoke.
Speaker 7: Has the game dramatically changed to take that into acknowledgement.
Speaker 8: Yes, So in those fifty years there have been five
Speaker 8: major editions of the game, and in each one you
Speaker 8: can see kind of a you know, more and more inclusivity,
Speaker 8: more and more roles for women. The original game had
Speaker 8: very little as roles for women. It assumed sword and
Speaker 8: sorcery heroes of the stamp of Conan or the kind
Speaker 8: of you know, heroes you see in Tolkien right where
Speaker 8: you know, this is very much a male dominated, male
Speaker 8: centric world, like that started to e road, but you
Speaker 8: were mentioning the Satanic elements. That's another good example. Like
Speaker 8: there was a whole backlash against the game for its
Speaker 8: opposed satanic content, and so they took out for a
Speaker 8: time the words demon and devil, other words that were
Speaker 8: viewed as being offensive potentially to fundamentalist Christians. Those were
Speaker 8: later restored when that particular cultural issue was no longer
Speaker 8: the most important one on people's minds. But if you
Speaker 8: look at the game today, yes, I mean Wizards of
Speaker 8: the Coast, who is the current publisher of the game,
Speaker 8: has made the game far more inclusive in terms of
Speaker 8: what roles are available to people of different races, different ability,
Speaker 8: different gender. And you know this, I think every generation
Speaker 8: has really reinvented D and D for itself, Right.
Speaker 4: John, I guess I should be asking my own child.
Speaker 6: But my son, Gabe often serves as a dungeon master.
Speaker 6: Should I therefore assume he has done a bunch of
Speaker 6: the reading and understood what the current parameters and guidelines are,
Speaker 6: or just would it not be unusual for five people
Speaker 6: to sit down and somebody going I'll be the dungeon
Speaker 6: master and not know what the hell he's talking about.
Speaker 6: But he's a creative guy and he goes yes to this,
Speaker 6: no to that.
Speaker 4: I mean, how does that happ So?
Speaker 8: Yeah? In short, probably, if he is successful, that is,
Speaker 8: if people come back and play with him again, he
Speaker 8: probably has some chops. He probably has at least enough
Speaker 8: understanding of the system that people feel like they're playing
Speaker 8: the game when they're playing with them. But it's also
Speaker 8: important understand it is a game that takes place in
Speaker 8: the dialogue, and like I said, really what the players
Speaker 8: mostly experience is that tavern scene I was describing for you, right,
Speaker 8: the dice come out when there's some kind of conflict
Speaker 8: that you know, you then want to consult tables. Well,
Speaker 8: what does it take to if I want to stab
Speaker 8: that guy in the back and surprise him. That'll be
Speaker 8: a diar roll, right, and then you need to go
Speaker 8: consult the right tables for that to figure out what happens.
Speaker 8: But you know, those are more exception cases, really, I think,
Speaker 8: than that pure conversation where the players again just kind
Speaker 8: of say what it is they want to try to do,
Speaker 8: and you know, a lot of things players suggest the
Speaker 8: system has no way to adjudicate. This has been true
Speaker 8: from the very start. It's also true today playing as
Speaker 8: you know, being a dungeon master, you need to be
Speaker 8: able to improvise when people propose they want to do
Speaker 8: something and the rules have no way of adjudicating it,
Speaker 8: or you don't feel like going and looking it up,
Speaker 8: you'll wing it and it works. I mean, it's one
Speaker 8: of the miraculous weird things about I don't know why
Speaker 8: it works. And I study this thing, right, But it
Speaker 8: just as long as players have that feeling that the
Speaker 8: dungeon master is making a considered decision about the world,
Speaker 8: then it works. You almost don't even know what or
Speaker 8: how that decision is.
Speaker 7: So you know what, John, let's say, let's welcome our
Speaker 7: favorite everybody everybody's favorite dungeon master, David Guggenheim.
Speaker 5: Who plays this every is this every Friday? This is
Speaker 5: way you go every Friday, right.
Speaker 3: Every Friday, every Friday?
Speaker 4: And Dren, how long is an average session?
Speaker 3: I would say three to four hours?
Speaker 1: Huh?
Speaker 7: Okay, are you enjoying this, David? This is your episode,
Speaker 7: my friend. You've got the guy on the expert. Anything
Speaker 7: you want to ask him to make your game enhancesd.
Speaker 9: No, I want to be a prey instantly, because in
Speaker 9: the twenty twenty four edition of five E, your grease
Speaker 9: is no longer flammable.
Speaker 8: Man over again.
Speaker 6: Thanks for tuning in everybody night. You're just gonna want
Speaker 6: the microphones run and we'll be back next week, just differently.
Speaker 8: My god, what the hell that book is even out yet?
Speaker 8: That you have one?
Speaker 3: And the right right, I know, here's.
Speaker 5: A question I just must say. I'm looking at David
Speaker 5: differently because if he knows them, yes, so for.
Speaker 4: Both of you, what what do you find?
Speaker 6: What makes how do I say this, what makes somebody
Speaker 6: so attracted to this game and so good in it?
Speaker 5: Is?
Speaker 6: Is it only really work for people who can abandon
Speaker 6: themselves to their imagination and get into this role of
Speaker 6: playing stuff? What what kind of people does it appeal to?
Speaker 6: And what kind of people does it not appeal to?
Speaker 9: David, I mean, well, yeah, no, I actually have an
Speaker 9: answer to that, and and and John correct me if
Speaker 9: you think I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: And that's I think links back to what you were saying. Peter.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 9: You know, this was a game that was created in
Speaker 9: seventy four and there's been a lot the changes now
Speaker 9: and this is something that wasn't in the twenty fourteen
Speaker 9: the current book until the new books come out very soon.
Speaker 9: A session zero where everybody who is going to play
Speaker 9: the game gets together and they're going to talk about
Speaker 9: the things that are going to be part of the game.
Speaker 9: That there will be like hey, there might be something
Speaker 9: that might be triggering or upsetting, and players would be
Speaker 9: able to say, you know what, I'd rather you not
Speaker 9: do that because that would take me to an unpleasant place,
Speaker 9: and the dungeon master would either say this is not
Speaker 9: the game for you, or the dungeon master, and I
Speaker 9: think this is probably more common, will alter the game
Speaker 9: for the people who are in the room or find
Speaker 9: a happy middle ground to make sure that it is fun,
Speaker 9: it is inclusive, and everybody.
Speaker 3: Feels like they're part of something together.
Speaker 8: Interesting telling you up leveling that a bit. I think
Speaker 8: what makes this game still appeal to us so much
Speaker 8: after so much so long has passed is that it
Speaker 8: is artisanal and really every group that gets to sit
Speaker 8: around the table gets to make their own story, right,
Speaker 8: and it's a story only they have to like, like
Speaker 8: it might not appeal to anybody else in the world.
Speaker 8: You get a group to sit around the table, each
Speaker 8: of them kind of has their creative input into it,
Speaker 8: and they get to have this custom experience just for them,
Speaker 8: and like that power, that creative power, and is something
Speaker 8: I think people, especially in our very digital age, like
Speaker 8: tap into and it's part of what's made the game
Speaker 8: so vital in the last ten years especially, is.
Speaker 7: Part of John is part of this and I hate
Speaker 7: to use this word, but I can't figure out the
Speaker 7: synonym for it. That is as effective. Is part of
Speaker 7: that that nerds really do rule the list one of years.
Speaker 7: If you look in the entertainment business Marvel, Look how
Speaker 7: big Marvel is, Look how big superhero movies are, Look
Speaker 7: how big comic book movies are. So this kind of
Speaker 7: makes sense that they would navigate this kind of thing
Speaker 7: because they want to be challenged.
Speaker 8: They would. And you know the fact that now with
Speaker 8: the Internet you can watch people play this game. You
Speaker 8: can watch these ten pole shows like Critical Role, where
Speaker 8: you know, very competent, funny, attractive people sit around and
Speaker 8: play the game. This is thing that has certainly inspired
Speaker 8: so many kids and the demographics of this. This is
Speaker 8: not old fogies who are the super fans of this
Speaker 8: at this point. This is a very young audience that
Speaker 8: has become attached to D and D and a big
Speaker 8: part of that, Yeah, they grew up with Game of Thrones,
Speaker 8: they grew up with the Peter Jackson Lord of the
Speaker 8: Rings adaptations. Fantasy is familiar to them in a way
Speaker 8: that it has not been for previous generations, Right, and John.
Speaker 6: Is it based on what you're saying, I would imagine
Speaker 6: unlike Clue where somebody goes no, Yeah, it comes sit down,
Speaker 6: you're you're professor Plumb. I can't, like if I'm visiting
Speaker 6: a friend in Ohio, I can't just sit in on
Speaker 6: their D and D session and job in like it's
Speaker 6: I come a part of the It sounds like the
Speaker 6: groups become sort of singular and it would be tricky
Speaker 6: to integrate a new player or a temporary player.
Speaker 8: Not not really, I mean it happens quite a bit.
Speaker 8: I've jumped into countless ongoing campeens as they call them,
Speaker 8: right where you know they'll just to sit in for
Speaker 8: a session for two and you know it requires maybe
Speaker 8: a little sleight of hand on the part of the
Speaker 8: dungeon masters to explain who this new person is and
Speaker 8: why you suddenly trust them. But it's definitely true that
Speaker 8: the best and the most emotionally satisfying games are ones
Speaker 8: where you do have, you know, a type group that
Speaker 8: kind of takes it from beginning to end, and those
Speaker 8: emotional journeys you experienced playing game like this, they stay
Speaker 8: with you and they're.
Speaker 6: One of the things that intrigued me about this when
Speaker 6: we were thinking about doing an episode was I had
Speaker 6: read that there were prisoners not only on death row,
Speaker 6: but prisoners that have been in solitary for extended periods
Speaker 6: of time, and part of their sanity is they find
Speaker 6: ways to play the game through.
Speaker 4: Messages that are passed back and forth.
Speaker 6: And I was reading this in the in the Sunday
Speaker 6: New York Times magazine about them a year ago, these
Speaker 6: very intricate games, and you know, you're talking about communities
Speaker 6: of these games. I would imagine that that is incredibly therapeutic.
Speaker 6: And well, I mean, in some ways, I'm wondering if
Speaker 6: playing a game like this in that kind of environment
Speaker 6: can actually evoke a change in the people that play
Speaker 6: it for some sort of societal good or their own
Speaker 6: personal growth.
Speaker 8: No, I mean, I think I remember the same article,
Speaker 8: and I'm familiar with a few other similar cases that
Speaker 8: people who really feel like D and D is what
Speaker 8: gave them a connection to a community when they were incarcerated,
Speaker 8: that they found their people and found some stability and
Speaker 8: a world that made sense to them in this horrible environment. Right.
Speaker 8: So there's academic research as well about this that you know,
Speaker 8: need to get into here. But like, you know, whatever
Speaker 8: it is about the game, you know, I'll say this,
Speaker 8: a lot of people charge it with being escapist. That
Speaker 8: you play this so you can kind of play a superhero, right,
Speaker 8: I may not be very successful in real life, but
Speaker 8: I'm going to go on and be this, you know,
Speaker 8: Garth Act the Invincible. You know, I guess my perspective
Speaker 8: on that is that there's no escape. Like all of
Speaker 8: our we're all real, and our experiences are inescapably real,
Speaker 8: and the experience of playing Garth Act the Invincible is
Speaker 8: not the same experience as being Garth Act the Invincible,
Speaker 8: and so it's a transformational experience. I mean, there was
Speaker 8: an early reviewer in around nineteen seventy nine, one of
Speaker 8: the first mainstream reviewers who looked at D and D
Speaker 8: you remark that, you know it may turn out to
Speaker 8: be one of the most exciting discoveries of your life
Speaker 8: when you start playing it.
Speaker 5: To Mivigant, just want to just want to say, Peter's
Speaker 5: out straggling for me.
Speaker 4: You know, the.
Speaker 8: Point of this is not to be the best. The
Speaker 8: point of this is to have these experiences that you
Speaker 8: would never have in real life, and to be able
Speaker 8: to explore parts of yourself and parts of reality that
Speaker 8: you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience.
Speaker 4: So John two things.
Speaker 6: If someone wanted to either get a better understanding of
Speaker 6: the game or try to find a way to jump
Speaker 6: into the experience of doing it.
Speaker 4: And you can touch your own book if you like.
Speaker 6: What's a good place to sort of get a better
Speaker 6: understanding of it and or begin an involvement. And the
Speaker 6: second part of that question is, since it's the fiftieth anniversary,
Speaker 6: if you could snap your fingers and imagine fifty years
Speaker 6: from now, how would you love to see the game evolve?
Speaker 8: So the second one's a tougher one. I'll go to
Speaker 8: the first one first. So in many towns they have
Speaker 8: what we call friendly local gaming stores, which are places
Speaker 8: you can find actual human beings so you can play
Speaker 8: with in person. A lot of them are looking for
Speaker 8: additional players for their campaigns, be more than happy to
Speaker 8: accommodate you and whatever your bizarre interests are that you
Speaker 8: want to add to their ongoing efforts online as well.
Speaker 8: I mean, if you just want to get started, of course,
Speaker 8: going and buying some books about this, you know, the
Speaker 8: core source books would be a good idea. As David mentioned,
Speaker 8: there's a major revision of them underway, like right now,
Speaker 8: and so there's going to be new editions of this
Speaker 8: coming out between now and I think March of next year,
Speaker 8: that they'd be a good place to start. But also
Speaker 8: just going to YouTube, like I said, or going to
Speaker 8: Twitch and finding an interesting group of people who are
Speaker 8: playing the game, telling stories, watching it, watch a campaign
Speaker 8: for at least a few episodes of it, get a
Speaker 8: sense of what it is, and I think you'll you'll
Speaker 8: figure out pretty quick whether it's for you or not.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Cool, And the second part, Yeah, any fantasies about what
Speaker 6: this could become or what you would enjoy seeing another
Speaker 6: evolution go.
Speaker 8: I mean, I think it's inevitable at this point that
Speaker 8: AI is going to play a huge part in how
Speaker 8: this game is going to evolve for the next decade, right,
Speaker 8: And you know, I think there are a lot of
Speaker 8: ways that AI could help make the traditional experience a
Speaker 8: richer one, just doing the math for you and keeping
Speaker 8: track of how many goblins you killed, things like that.
Speaker 8: These are kinds of things that AI can do without
Speaker 8: taking over the game for you. But let's face it,
Speaker 8: like there's going to be augmented reality versions of this
Speaker 8: that are going to have AI elements to them that
Speaker 8: are going to be like really bizarre, and I would
Speaker 8: love to play in those experiences. We'll have those in
Speaker 8: twenty years, in fifty years, we'll all be little brains
Speaker 8: in jars right like the Singularity will have happened. They'll
Speaker 8: be using us as batteries like in the Matrix, you know,
Speaker 8: and so I you know, when we're all on the Matrix,
Speaker 8: I'm sure we'll have some amazing.
Speaker 4: Amazing I'll see you then Matrix.
Speaker 7: Wait, I can't Jean, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 7: on and putting up with our stuff.
Speaker 6: And John, honestly, you know, we came into this going
Speaker 6: I don't know what this is. You've actually made it
Speaker 6: sound like an, if nothing else, a ton of fun
Speaker 6: and I can see why why people would get into this.
Speaker 6: It sounds like a really fun way to do what
Speaker 6: I get to do for a living sometimes, which is going,
Speaker 6: oh yeah, well what if I was this or what
Speaker 6: if these were my circumstances.
Speaker 7: So to create friendships with people in a way it's
Speaker 7: not linear we're going drinking at a bar and just
Speaker 7: hanging out. It's actually your participating in your improving and
Speaker 7: it's communal, you know, and and people are back again.
Speaker 7: It's a nice thing that people get out and play together,
Speaker 7: So thank you.
Speaker 8: I mean a lot of people play with their kids.
Speaker 8: You might want to try that.
Speaker 7: Not doing that, To do a six hundred page book
Speaker 7: is a major accomplishment, especially in a world when I'm
Speaker 7: sure when you're on these shows, everyone I've seen you
Speaker 7: on knows all of the stuff, so they would call
Speaker 7: you and things if you got it wrong. So congratulations
Speaker 7: on not getting it's the wrong.
Speaker 8: I mean, apparently the grease spell thing is fun. Thanks
Speaker 8: so much for having me pleasure.
Speaker 5: Thank you?
Speaker 7: So David, did that warm the cockles of your heart?
Speaker 7: Was that like a major thing? Listen does make a gift?
Speaker 7: This is a lout of a Christmas present, right it is?
Speaker 6: You know here there is another belt coming your way.
Speaker 3: I'd lack a dragon on it, maybe some flame. One
Speaker 3: of the things that.
Speaker 9: You hear most often if you're into the game is
Speaker 9: you run into people who don't understand the game, who
Speaker 9: like there's no winning, there's role playing that's sort of weird.
Speaker 3: What's a dungeon master?
Speaker 9: That sounds somewhat sinister and sexual in some sort of way.
Speaker 9: So I do like to evangelize to allow people to
Speaker 9: know that there is this game that is really more
Speaker 9: of a framework for people to come together, to have
Speaker 9: fun and to interact in ways that you normally couldn't.
Speaker 9: And I think while there isn't per se winning, there
Speaker 9: is feelings of accomplishment when you've taken down a dragon.
Speaker 5: So wait a minute, you eat pizza. I know it's
Speaker 5: Friday night.
Speaker 7: If you're driving home at eleven thirty, Yeah, you get
Speaker 7: a couple miles worth of kind of killed the dragon.
Speaker 5: And it was a good night. It feels real, right.
Speaker 9: It does feel good because you have some really sort
Speaker 9: of cool moments. And it's here's the thing, and Jason,
Speaker 9: I this hearkens back to I think what you were
Speaker 9: originally saying. And this is actually how I got into it.
Speaker 9: My son would do some stretches late at night, and
Speaker 9: while he's in his bed and I'm doing these stretches
Speaker 9: on him, and his sister was across the way. They
Speaker 9: would play this little game much like you were saying, yeah, right, oh,
Speaker 9: I do cast ice on you, and I froze you,
Speaker 9: and then I'm doing and my son basically always figured
Speaker 9: out a way to win, and she would end up
Speaker 9: crying and it made and I had never played D
Speaker 9: and D.
Speaker 3: This is how I actually got got.
Speaker 9: Into it, and I'm like, oh, so D and D
Speaker 9: is a way to introduce a rule set. My spell
Speaker 9: can do this, there's turns while also maintaining the creativity.
Speaker 9: You if you think of something more creative than the
Speaker 9: other guy, you might not need a spell, or you
Speaker 9: might not need a big sword or something like that.
Speaker 9: So it's dealing with creativity and a rule set that
Speaker 9: fairness and fun.
Speaker 4: So there you.
Speaker 7: Go, Producer Laurie, Now that you've seen this and you've
Speaker 7: heard about it, Jason, what do you what do you
Speaker 7: guess on a scale of one to ten, how apt
Speaker 7: Producer Laurie is to now get involved in a Dungeons
Speaker 7: and Dragons game?
Speaker 5: Zero to ten? What do you think?
Speaker 4: Are we are there negative numbers?
Speaker 7: I was just gonna say, I was going to check
Speaker 7: you with a minus seven, Lauri? Are we correct on
Speaker 7: a scale of minus five to ten? How after you now,
Speaker 7: if you've heard of the origins, how wonderful it is
Speaker 7: the group commitment, how you can grow, how you can
Speaker 7: be an orc there thing? What is your sense of
Speaker 7: the number in your head? As far as that you'll
Speaker 7: ever play this invited tonight to an introductory game.
Speaker 9: I don't know what to say.
Speaker 8: I have to say it makes no difference in any
Speaker 8: way whatever it is I'm against.
Speaker 1: I was going to say something really negative, but after
Speaker 1: hearing David talk about his children, oh yes it was,
Speaker 1: I have to say I will never play.
Speaker 5: She's still at a minus twenty, but.
Speaker 4: She has a positive to respect for it.
Speaker 5: They are just listening because I know Laurie. I love Laurie.
Speaker 7: But I'm thinking she's going this is fascinating. I would
Speaker 7: never get near one of these games in my entire life.
Speaker 7: I drive around the street and avoid the people playing it. Right,
Speaker 7: I would put a spin on this game. And all
Speaker 7: of a sudden, you have something for society.
Speaker 6: So instead of making a dungeons and dragon, you make
Speaker 6: it bridges and machines. And instead of saying, okay, you've
Speaker 6: entered a tavern, there's a mysterious stranger with a map
Speaker 6: in gold coins, I go, okay, you come to a ravine.
Speaker 6: On the other side of the ravine, there is a
Speaker 6: glowing emerald city.
Speaker 4: There is no bridge.
Speaker 6: You are you are a mathematician, you are a craftsman,
Speaker 6: you are a dreamer.
Speaker 4: What do you do?
Speaker 5: I just nodded off.
Speaker 7: I didn't hear it I didn't, he said, Well, you
Speaker 7: know what, everybody who plays the game, please thank thank
Speaker 7: you for putting up with us.
Speaker 4: Happy fifty of that of ours three obvious fifty.
Speaker 6: Dragons and dungeons and masters and players and dark giants
Speaker 6: and dwarves and elves and battlements and God bless you go.
Speaker 4: Enjoy.
Speaker 2: Now, as another episode of Really No Really comes to
Speaker 2: a close, I know you're wondering, what is the biggest
Speaker 2: single game of Dungeons and Dragons ever played? Well, I'll
Speaker 2: embark on that campaign in a moment, but first let's
Speaker 2: thank our.
Speaker 3: Guest to John Peterson.
Speaker 2: You can follow John on x where he is at
Speaker 2: doc etis that's d O C E T I S T,
Speaker 2: and on Facebook where he is playing at the world.
Speaker 2: Find all pertinent links in our show notes, our little
Speaker 2: show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and threads at
Speaker 2: really No Really Podcast, And of course you can share
Speaker 2: your thoughts and feedback with us online at reallynoreally dot com.
Speaker 2: Check out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe
Speaker 2: button and take that bell so you're updated when we
Speaker 2: release new videos and episodes.
Speaker 3: Which we do each Tuesday.
Speaker 2: So listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And Now, what
Speaker 2: was the single biggest game of D and D ever played?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: It took place in April of twenty twenty three at
Speaker 2: the Provo Town Center in Provo, Utah. In all, a
Speaker 2: total of one thousand, two hundred and twenty seven players
Speaker 2: simultaneously played a single game well seated at two hundred
Speaker 2: individual gaming tables. Each were playing one unified game which
Speaker 2: required dozens of dungeon masters, generals, runners.
Speaker 3: And of course a prints.
Speaker 2: It took four hours to complete the game, which is
Speaker 2: actually pretty short by D and D standards.
Speaker 1: Now Ray
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