WEBVTT - The 50-year Dungeons & Dragons Phenomenon Explained! 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:04.720 Now really. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.360 Really now, really well, and welcome to Really No Really, 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.960 with Jess Alexander and Peter Tilden, who invite you to 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.640 join the campaign, roll the D twenty, acquire experience points, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.680 and please your dungeon master by subscribing to our show. 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:21.239 And if that. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.880 Introduction left you lost and confused, then you've probably never 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.600 experienced the joys of Dungeons and Dragons, the legendary tabletop 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:34.240 role playing game featuring elves, dwarves, wizards, fighters, and legions 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.720 of dedicated fans. This worldwide phenomenon is currently celebrating its 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.440 fiftieth anniversary Really No Really. Over its five decades, the 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.199 game has been both hailed and vilified. It has been 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.160 the source of claims about satanic panic, and it's also 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.240 been featured on Netflix's Stranger Things and a feature film 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:53.479 starring Chris Pine. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:55.480 But what is this game really about? 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.000 And how can it be more popular than ever after 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.200 five decades? After much an from the self identified nerds 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.360 on our production staff, the guys bravely ventured into the 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.280 never explored realms of D and D with one of 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.520 the game's quintessential experts, John Peterson, who studies the history 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.199 of games especially tabletop role playing games. And so let's 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.400 Sally forth the Brave Adventurers. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:19.560 Here's Jason and Peter. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.920 So this episode. 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:31.640 Usually, in a really no really episode, one of us, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.280 as we hear about something, we you know, encounter something 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:41.760 that makes us go huh, really no, really really and so, 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.800 but usually one of us will then do some research. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.280 Usually I'm going to give it up. 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.120 You use research, so by the time we meet the guest, 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:56.440 you have at least a level of understanding, some knowledge 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.760 of the inner workings or the complexities of the thing 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:04.120 we're talking about. Way to start formulating questions to engage 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.480 and draw out the vital information. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.320 So is this really know really? The really no really 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.840 is Jason and I realized it's the fiftieth anniversary of 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.359 Dungeons and Drags, And. 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.960 The really know really is that we don't know. We 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:21.359 don't know. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.480 About this and so and then I start researching and 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:27.760 I didn't realize. I guess the one of the companies 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.320 that owned this previously was called the Wizards of something where. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.040 And I'm going, yeah, but you're just reading a line 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:34.680 because I'm trying to prep for both of us, And 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.919 I'm going, so the Wizards of SO and so release 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.440 the thing, and I'm going, who are the Wizards of So? 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:39.560 I know nothing. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:40.840 I don't know who they are. I don't know what 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.679 the thing is. I don't know what they released. I 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:44.400 don't know how they found it to release it to 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.320 begin with. Now, my son Gabe, actually my son knowing too, 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.520 but Gabe, it really plays this and our own David 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:57.160 Guggenheim is very into this. I've watched a little bit 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.640 and it seems to me, and I don't want to 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:04.880 be Jordan anyway, it seems like a bunch of people 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.640 just jerking. You know, I'm an amp, I'm a wizard, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.280 I'm a frog, I'm a okay, I'm gonna storm the castle, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:13.040 roll the dice. 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.000 You didn't make it, says who, says me. 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.919 I so, so, here's how I started this. 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.000 This was my introduction, says The first thing I asked 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:21.320 David Googenheim is how do you win? 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.600 And he goes, oh, you don't win, right, I gotta go, Yeah, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.720 I got I gotta go. You don't win. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:27.560 You're just it's not a game in the sense of 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.640 a game. It's not it's a lifestyle choice. It's a 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:32.359 I don't know what it is. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:34.480 It seems to be a game that you play for 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.840 all eternities, right, And I said to David, and. 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.200 Since prisoners on death row play it, you literally play 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:40.400 it to. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.640 Your dough by the way, yeah, David goes, you know, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:43.960 prisoners on death row play it. 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.000 I said, that's because there was a death right. They 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.360 got nothing else, thinking, how what are you doing in yourself? 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.000 I'm whittling a dice a die a twenty sided for 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.880 twelve years, right, So of course they're playing it. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.520 They'll play with it, honestly, by the way, we're being funny. 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.040 But I don't Maybe I would, Maybe if I understood it, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:01.800 I would enjoy it. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:06.400 Maybe our fantasy games. Let me just say I don't 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.680 get it. Let me just say what I see is 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.440 can you see the two of us sitting for four hours? 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.640 I like improv. I do improv. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.120 I play characters for a living, and you take me 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:18.920 to the groundlings on the best night. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:20.120 Thirty minutes in, I. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.000 Go, okay, got it, bode thout you for that's go home. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.800 It's the best improv I've ever seen. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:27.279 That sands and out. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:28.400 Not on death row. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:30.080 That's wrong. 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.920 I go, I'm dead and moving up. 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.640 And by the way, if you're in what's like a 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.640 tough prison, right now, K, you're right? 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:37.920 Sure? 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.720 Rikers? Hey did you hear Johnson Els? I mean does 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:41.440 that get you? 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.359 What does that get you? So let's say hi to 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.240 our guest. Let's welcome our guests, because. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.360 We were and I can't listen, we're making a lot 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:48.720 of fun. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.280 This guy is the real deal, and there's answers to this. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:57.080 We're making fun of us though, because obviously we're we're 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.000 fifty years later, apparently to the part you're celebrating f. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.279 Two years and we're going on, I'm still playing hearts 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.160 and the part cheesy, I. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:08.640 Didn't know broken the code on Monopola, right, So you 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:13.279 get who you're dealing with here. Yeah, okay, So we're 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:17.000 gonna meet John Peterson, who actually studies the history of 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.479 games in general, but especially tabletop role playing games and 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.120 war games, both of which is this. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.880 His first book has just been re released. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.720 It's called Playing at the World two E Volume one, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.640 The Invention of Dungeons and Dragons. It's been called the 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:34.440 history the first serious history of. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.080 The development of of D and T. 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.479 I'm going to use the lingo now D and D. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.839 He co authored the Hugo Award finalist Dungeons and Dragons 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.560 Art and Arcana, and the New York Times best selling 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.360 official Dungeons and Dragons cookbook Heroes Feast. 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.600 He's also worked on trivial pursuit Dungeons and Dragons Ultimate Edition. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:55.360 UH. 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.400 He's contributed to numerous academic anthologies and pop culture websites, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.000 alluding three things I've never heard of, Polygon fired, and 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:04.520 Boeing Boeing, I don't. 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:04.680 Live in. 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.120 They talk about alternate universes. There's one coming on to 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.640 our screen right now. So let's John to John Peterson. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.039 Hello John, shoot together one two three, Hello John. 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.240 Hello, Well, thanks for having me. 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.560 We're so delighted now. Already already I'm learning things. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:25.240 You ready for? 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.080 What my first observation that's going to be If you're 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.520 watching on YouTube and you can see the portal at 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.479 which we're looking at John, his home is nicer than mine. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.400 So already something is not right. Something's going wrong and 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:38.240 is not right. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.200 This guy is pretending he's a dwarf at the battlements. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.120 I'm trying to work for a living, and look what 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.080 he's got versus what I'm here with you. What's wrong 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:47.919 with this picture. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.320 So let me be clear doing D and D history, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:51.520 there is no money in it. 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:52.120 I promise. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:54.120 Congratulations. 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.800 Your parents must be thrilling exactly well. I must love 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.200 this on a level that's out of this world. 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:03.920 I am a bit of a fan, and I guess 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.960 some one of those people who feels like D and 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.440 D was one of the signature cultural innovations of the 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.200 late twentieth century and that it has led to so 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.400 may it's been so profoundly influential, and you know, not 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.680 maybe not the level of like the Internet or something, okay, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:22.960 but like in terms of its pervasive just depiction of 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.600 a new form of entertainment. Yes, D and D matters. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.440 So can you talk if you can encapsulate for people 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.280 like where it came from, how I know it are 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:32.480 going to be bored. So I don't want to go 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:32.880 too long. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.520 But people who don't know it, I'd love to be 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.320 impressed with the stars. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.440 Starts came, it's got It must have a terrific origin. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:40.920 The argent story of the guys who started, et cetera. 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.080 If you still it, yeah, I can. 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:43.320 So. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.760 Back in nineteen seventy four, there are two guys who 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.040 are Midwesterners who are really into war games. So you 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.040 got to kind of understand what wargames are to get 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.000 where D and D started. So, wargames are these conflict 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.760 simulation games where usually what you're doing is you're replaying 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.320 like one of the Great Battles of Napoleon, right, and 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.480 you imagine you're the commander and you can move around 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.680 little chits on a board, and could you win Waterloo 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:08.960 in a way that Napoleon couldn't write? 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:09.440 Sure? 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.080 And like so these guys are really into games like that. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.040 And you know, at around the same time, though, in 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:20.160 the nineteen sixties, Tolkien and sword and sorcery fiction in 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.800 particular started to become like profoundly popular, right, and there 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.720 was this like chocolate and peanut butter moment where people said, Okay, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.800 can we take this conflict simulation stuff, which is all 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.160 based on like mathematical models and rolling dice and figuring 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.800 out things like how good this kind of unit is 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.800 against that kind of unit and apply that to things 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:43.160 like orcs and ballrogs and entts and wizards and all 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.120 the things that would be familiar from Tolkien. Yeah, so 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.000 really look at it like it kind of started from 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.280 that and this began for Gary Gygax, one of the 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.679 two co creators, in nineteen seventy one, with a little 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.920 pamphlet he published that was called Chainmail, And this was 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.800 kind of the first book you could buy that had 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.080 like systems for how to be Gandolf, Like what you 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.400 know if you want to put him in a conflict 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:10.680 simulation context, Like how many hits could Gandalf take in 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.520 a fight before he dies? When he casts a spell? 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.600 You know, how many works will be slain by it? 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.280 Things like that, And this then gave birth to a 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.839 whole bunch of fascinating activities that started to bring things 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.120 from the army level down to the individual level, where 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.240 instead of really thinking about I'm commanding an army where 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.480 I'll have wizards and I'll have a bunch of you know, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.120 soldiers with swords and axes and bows and things like that, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.320 down to Okay, each of the players is going to 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.280 have an individual character, and this individual character might be 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.559 a wizard, and they'll have a name, and they'll have 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.320 a set of spells they can cast. And the individual 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.520 players then take on the roles of these characters and 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:59.480 pursue a story in which they adventure in a world. Famously, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.400 they go down into these dungeons that appear in the 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.360 name of the game, where they'll fight monsters and get 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.960 treasure and become more powerful as a result of it. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.920 And this was the birth of what we came to 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.960 call a role playing game. And role playing games become 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.360 just so such a big business, not just on the 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.440 table top, but they quickly kind of jumped into computers. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.120 At the time D and D came out in nineteen 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.880 seventy four, computer games are pretty rudimentary, right, but like 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.640 you know, by nineteen seventy five, there were already people 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.760 adapting D and D four computers and pretty much any 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.319 triple A game that you look at today. And these 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.040 are games that make you know, billions of dollars, right, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.880 that has that DNA in it all. It owes back 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.240 to that nineteen seventy four original set of rules in 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.319 which you got to play a character, be a protagonist, adventure, 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.920 get more powerful, and have a netpic quest. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.240 When did when did it did it take off like 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.120 immediately or was it a couple of years down the world? 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.760 Because I saw one of the things that exploded it 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.600 was satanism, witchcraft. Did the controversy explode. 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.520 It definitely it did, and I mean the controversy kind 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.319 of built gradually. But look at it like this, this 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.600 is a really small insular hobby. When it started, these 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.640 guys at this company called Tactical Studies Rules that published 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.000 D and D. Originally they originally printed like a thousand 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:23.800 copies of this and they weren't going to sure they 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.840 were going to sell those, right, And like it built 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.840 a little bit, like by nineteen seventy six seventy seven, 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.559 it penetrated into college campuses. It was becoming kind of 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.480 an underground thing. But then just one of these historical 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.439 accidents happened, which is in nineteen seventy nine, there was 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.800 a kid who was in East Lansing, Michigan. He was 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.560 a university student who disappeared. His name was James Dallas 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.800 Egbert the third, And when he disappeared from his college campus, 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.480 people deuilt this theory because they heard been playing this 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.160 bizarre game called Dungeons and Dragons that he had come 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.960 to believe the fantasy was real. That he had got 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.800 on down into the steam tunnels beneath the university and 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.720 was trying to like find orgs to killer something down there, 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.760 got lost, trapped, diluted, possibly died, and this led to 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:18.400 this huge mainstream press just sensationalless coverage that simultaneously demonized 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.760 the game and made it immensely popular the way that 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.360 like only a weird historical accident like that could. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.080 So, John, I just want to go back, because again, 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.240 please forgive me, I know so little about this if 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:32.240 I'm asking. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:34.960 Just banal, rudimentary questions. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.560 But it sounds like somebody came up with, Okay, here's 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.480 how we're gonna here's rules one through one hundred of 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.360 how if you want to play this game that's played. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.840 But it sounds like that those rules are very much 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.959 player generated in some ways as well, especially when I 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.560 watch people play it. And I'll give you the goofy example, 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.640 but it seems like I'm rubber, you're glue. Somebody goes, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.240 I'm rubber, your glue. Everything you say bounces off me 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.040 and sticks to you, and the guy who it sticks 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.120 to goes, yeah, but I cast a spell on me 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.079 so things don't stick. They actually become animated and they 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.360 attack your eyes. Oh yeah, well my eyes are protected 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.000 by advisor that I won one. And you go, okay, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.640 well this is just I'm just just trading a horse 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.000 bucky back and forth. I mean what a is the 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.440 game grown by the players who then generate variations on 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.440 how to do this, And if so, how does a 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.720 group of gamers or a dungeon master keep that sort 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.319 of playground version of conflict from happening. 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.120 Well, so you said the two keywords, they're dungeon master. 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.040 So you need to think about a game of D 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.760 and D like there are two classes of participants. There's 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.280 a dungeon master and then there are players. And the 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.160 dungeon master doesn't have like a character. The dungeon master's 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.600 job is to play the world. And moreover, the dungeon 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.880 master's job is to be the author already on what 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.240 is true about the system and about what what you 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.640 can and can't do. So a player says, I'm rubbing 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:10.439 your glue, the dungeon master is the one who says, well, no, 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:13.960 this is the army you're wearing, this is the equipment 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.920 you have, and this orc stabs you and you are 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.680 now dead, right, and so you need in these games, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.040 and in the computer version, of course, the computer plays 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.240 this role for you. Right, you don't really have a 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:28.760 dungeon master. The computer does the dungeon mastering, but like 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.280 the you know, the crux of the game is that 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.960 the players inhabit the characters, and the characters can attempt anything. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.200 This is a really crucial thing about it. Like anything 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.840 you could describe as a possible action, you can propose 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.920 it as what your character does, and it's then up 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.160 to the dungeon master to tell you what the result 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.520 of doing that will be, whether it's it's what you intended, 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.200 whether it's something you didn't intent. You're like, Okay, I'm 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.640 going to cast a grease spell. And my hope in 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.920 casting this grease spell in this room is that every 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.440 orc is You're going to be on slippery ground and 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.080 they're all going to fall down, and like this is 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:05.520 going to work and it's going to be great. The 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.000 dungeon master says, fantastic. But you forgot that there are 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.040 these fires on the side of the room, and in fact, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.640 you and the orcs and everybody you know is now 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.160 in this immense conflagation, right, so somebody keeps track of 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.040 the state of the world, and you know, the players 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.600 merely have the power to state their intentions. The dungeon 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.640 master has the power to say what happened? 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.560 Whose world are they looking at as a guide? 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.000 Well, so the dungeon master job is also to describe 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.240 the world. Think about this way, you know, they're kind 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.680 of sounding boards. The dungeon master and the player are 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:40.880 at the start of the game. The dungeon master says, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.400 this is the situation. So, Jason Peter, You've entered the 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:50.280 tavern and the two of you see in front of 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.320 you a shadowy figure who is sitting at a table, 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.120 and the map is laid out before him. What do 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:12.680 you do? Jason Peter, You've entered the tavern and the 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.400 two of you see in front of you a shadowy 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.240 figure who is sitting at a table, and the map 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.800 is laid out before him. What do you do? This 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.920 is the classic, you know, way that a situation might start, 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.200 right and in response to what do you do? Then, Jason, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.360 what do you do? You saw that figure? You don't 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.000 need to know anything more about this game than what 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.000 I've told you right now. You guys, walk into the tavern. 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.160 You see that shadowy figure at the map there, he's 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:37.240 got some gold coins on it. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:37.720 What do you do? 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.200 And I would say, I go over and ask the 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.840 stranger what he's looking at, and may I look. 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.960 As well precisely and we just continue from there. He 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.680 tells you this is a map, and you know. He 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.240 then says, if you're so interested, like I personally can't 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.760 go there because it's like super dangerous, but perhaps the 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.320 two of you would like to adventure there where. I 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.400 understand that there's a mountain of these coins available, and 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.880 there may be some sort of guardian or curse or 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.119 something like that. But I'm sure the two of you 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.360 can work that out once you look into it. Here's 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:08.320 where the places in the map. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.760 Go for it, John, But what okay? As soon as 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.520 you said that it's fascinating sitting there with the map 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:15.880 and some gold coins, what's my goal? What's my motivation? 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.600 You know? When I said to David Gringham, we're going 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:19.520 to bring him in a second, because he does play 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.399 this and he is somewhat expert at it. If I 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.320 don't know what my motivation is and there's no winning 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.560 and there's no I'm just getting points, why would I 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.960 engage If I don't know what direction where I want 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.440 to end up? How would I know where questions to 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.640 ask or where to go? You know, I may say back, 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.560 I want to watch other people interact with him first 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.760 and see if he's a threat. I don't know what 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.480 I'm doing because I don't know enough about what I'm 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:41.480 trying to accomplish. 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:43.640 Well, I'd be very wise for actually to sit back 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.440 and watch and figure out what's up with this guy 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.320 before you go up and incredulously believe his story. But 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.879 you did mention, you know, yeah, your job in a 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.000 game like this, the obvious goal is just to gain 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.359 more power. The obvious goal is to gain more treasure, 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.840 gain more power, advance, And the way to advance is 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.160 to adventure, and through adventuring you gain what are called 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.040 experience points, and if you gain certain experience points thresholds 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.240 for your character, you advance in level. And this concept, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.359 by the way, has become a kind of influential one, 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.840 like it's hard to play a computer game that does 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.600 not have some element of that in it, right where 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.240 through the more you apply kind of the better you prove. 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.000 And this, you know, experience and power then makes you 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.680 ready for you know, even greater adventurers to tackle even 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.320 greater adversaries. So that's the ostensible goal. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:31.560 Of the game. 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.080 I'm curious to not knowing details. But I want to 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.040 bring David in the second. All of a sudden, I 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.080 look at trigger warnings and stuff. This is a game 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.359 that was if you look at the culture fifty years 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.320 ago and think about what it was and how people spoke. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.119 Has the game dramatically changed to take that into acknowledgement. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.840 Yes, So in those fifty years there have been five 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.800 major editions of the game, and in each one you 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.400 can see kind of a you know, more and more inclusivity, 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.560 more and more roles for women. The original game had 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.560 very little as roles for women. It assumed sword and 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.400 sorcery heroes of the stamp of Conan or the kind 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.080 of you know, heroes you see in Tolkien right where 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.480 you know, this is very much a male dominated, male 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.399 centric world, like that started to e road, but you 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.879 were mentioning the Satanic elements. That's another good example. Like 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.040 there was a whole backlash against the game for its 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.480 opposed satanic content, and so they took out for a 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.520 time the words demon and devil, other words that were 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.880 viewed as being offensive potentially to fundamentalist Christians. Those were 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.159 later restored when that particular cultural issue was no longer 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.639