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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: The way you described it was look it was the

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Speaker 2: times it was easy come, easy go, and as well,

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Speaker 2: he knew that his next job could be his last.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We've had this author on

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Speaker 1: before when he talked about his book on serial poisoner

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Speaker 1: doctor Thomas Neil Cream. Today, Dean Job tells us about

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Speaker 1: a different kind of criminal. A man known as the

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Speaker 1: Prince of Thieves. Arthur Berry stole from the rich and

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Speaker 1: the jazz age and then offered a detailed confession when

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Speaker 1: he was caught. How did he get away? With it

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Speaker 1: for so long. It's all in the book A Gentleman

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Speaker 1: and a Thief, The Daring Jewel Heists of a jazz

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Speaker 1: age rogue. Tell me where you think we should start

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Speaker 1: with this story. Do you feel like we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of information about Arthur Berry, who's the center of

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Speaker 1: your book.

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Speaker 2: Barry was born in Worcester, Massachusetts, factory town in central

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Speaker 2: Massachusetts and Irish extraction. Large family found it certainly when

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Speaker 2: he went looking for work as a young man. Given

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Speaker 2: he was known to a bed brushes with the law

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Speaker 2: and Worcester, he had trouble getting a job. There was

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Speaker 2: also some prejudice against Irish Americans. He sort of attributed

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Speaker 2: his life of crime to the fact that he looked

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Speaker 2: much older than his age, so he ended up getting

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Speaker 2: a job as a teenager, only thirteen or fourteen. Of

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Speaker 2: all things, he was a courier carrying suitcases full of

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Speaker 2: nitro glycerin to safecrackers, so he was seen as someone

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Speaker 2: who could pass as a student heading to college or

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Speaker 2: just an innocent young man. And this fellow who distilled

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Speaker 2: a nitro glycerin for safecrackers recruited him and that was

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Speaker 2: his entry into crime. He did some break ins and

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Speaker 2: was ultimately caught for some petty crimes and put in reformatory.

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Speaker 2: But his big break, I guess for one of a

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Speaker 2: better word, was the First World War. He enlisted and

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Speaker 2: became a medic, was known as a first aid man,

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Speaker 2: so he was sent overseas, and while his job was

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Speaker 2: to save lives, he was actually in the thick of

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Speaker 2: every battle. These first aid men had to risk their

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Speaker 2: lives to try to retrieve horribly wounded men from the battlefield.

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Speaker 2: He was gassed, he was shot, He was recommended for

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Speaker 2: a medal for bravery. He was a hero. He came

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Speaker 2: back a war hero, only to find that because his

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Speaker 2: return was delayed, he was kept overseas for almost a

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Speaker 2: year and an occupation of Germany. By the time he

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Speaker 2: got home he couldn't get a job. And that's when

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Speaker 2: ultimately he described making the decision how was he going

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Speaker 2: to make a living? And the only thing he knew

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Speaker 2: really was how to break the law. And he didn't

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Speaker 2: want to rob banks because he didn't want to have partners,

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Speaker 2: and he didn't want to use guns, and he didn't

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Speaker 2: want to hold up people in the street. And he

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Speaker 2: thought most elegant way to make money was simply be

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Speaker 2: a sneak thief break into their houses at night. No

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Speaker 2: one's hurt. He doesn't even have to confront his victims.

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Speaker 2: And that's ultimately what he not only started to do

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Speaker 2: but mastered.

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Speaker 1: Where did he lose sight of his moral compass? I'm

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Speaker 1: always interested in that answer. Is it that he grew

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Speaker 1: up around people like this and he didn't know anything differently?

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Speaker 1: I know we've kind of talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the lack of opportunity for him, but man, that just

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Speaker 1: seems like what happens to someone or to Arthur Berry,

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Speaker 1: to make them say it is okay to take from

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Speaker 1: people when it doesn't belong to me. Do you have

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Speaker 1: any idea?

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, because I deal with this in the book,

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Speaker 2: because at one point he says, a woman who can

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Speaker 2: walk around with a quarter of million dollars with a

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Speaker 2: pearls in her neck doesn't have to worry about where

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Speaker 2: her next meal is coming from. He was quite mercenary

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Speaker 2: abote it in the sense that he said, look, these

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Speaker 2: are rich people. The jewels are insured, often insured for

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Speaker 2: inflated prices. People are flaunting this wealth. I'm just going

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Speaker 2: to relieve them of it. And since he wasn't a

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Speaker 2: violent man, and since he wasn't, you know, his mo

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Speaker 2: was to not confront victims, you know, to sneak into

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Speaker 2: their houses. If he did end up in a bedroom

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Speaker 2: where there was someone by surprise somebody was there, or

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Speaker 2: he was interrupted mid robbery, he was very gentlemanly, very polite,

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Speaker 2: put them at ease, you know, just here for the jewels,

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Speaker 2: don't worry. So he was a different kind of criminal

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Speaker 2: in that sense. So his moral compass isn't quite the

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Speaker 2: same as a totally law abiding person, but he's got

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Speaker 2: some standards that keep him from tipping over into a

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Speaker 2: more violent, scary kind of crime. One thing I talk

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Speaker 2: about in the book is jewelry is the ultimate luxury item.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can have one hundred thousand dollars sports car,

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Speaker 2: but you can still drive it. But jewelry is just

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Speaker 2: something to be you know, you're blak. Is just something

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Speaker 2: to be displayed and fussed over, or it's the ultimate

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Speaker 2: way of displaying your wealth. And I think that says

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Speaker 2: something about the kind of warped but understandable code he had.

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Speaker 2: I'll just take things that people can definitely live without, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, when I spoke to the author about the Dallas,

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Speaker 1: Texas thief, and I sort of framed it as, did

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Speaker 1: he think of this as a victimless crime, like what

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Speaker 1: you're saying? Arthur Berry was saying, it's bling, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: you're showing this off, And she said, I know that

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Speaker 1: people will think that, except that her burglar stole some

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Speaker 1: very very sentimental items from people like that had been

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Speaker 1: in their family for hundreds of years. So it's not

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Speaker 1: all the showiness. It's the sentimental part of it. And

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Speaker 1: on top of that, it is the feeling of invasion

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Speaker 1: that somebody is sneaking around your house, which frankly is

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Speaker 1: my worst nightmare, somebody in the walls or someone sneaking

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Speaker 1: around the house, regardless of their intent so interested in

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Speaker 1: the cat burglar. But at the same time, it's also

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Speaker 1: just horrifying to think that someone could be around the

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Speaker 1: corner and you don't you don't know what their intention is,

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Speaker 1: even if it is just to steal and leave and

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Speaker 1: not hurt you.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, and there's certainly elements of that in Barry.

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Speaker 2: At times he was stealing sentimental items in some cases

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Speaker 2: just just throwing them away because they know they had

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Speaker 2: sentimental value, no value to him. And certainly there is

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Speaker 2: the intrusion, the violation of privacy, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't make light of that at all. That was a

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Speaker 2: definite element here. I mean sometimes he was and many

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Speaker 2: of his break ins he became known as the supper

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Speaker 2: time burglar or the dinner burglar, because people would be

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Speaker 2: even entertaining down below in their dining room and he's

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Speaker 2: going through their bedrooms. He morphed to having in a

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Speaker 2: car helpless carrying guns. He said he never wanted to

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Speaker 2: use them. He never did, and actually sometimes confronting people

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Speaker 2: in their bedrooms because one of the problems he had

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Speaker 2: as a dinner burglar is the jewels he was looking

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Speaker 2: for might be worn downstairs. He couldn't get access to them,

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Speaker 2: so there was that horrible violation of privacy. And as well,

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Speaker 2: he would often he was meticulous planner. He would get

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Speaker 2: up in a tree or break into an unoccupied estate

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Speaker 2: next door to some long island estate so he could

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Speaker 2: watch the comings and goings and get a sense of

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Speaker 2: when was the time to do his break in. So

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Speaker 2: very intrusive that way as well. But on the other

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Speaker 2: hand he was often identifying as targets because they were

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Speaker 2: women who were showing up in the society pages of

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Speaker 2: the newspapers. I mean he called society writers his on

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Speaker 2: winning accomplices, because he would see a photo of some

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Speaker 2: rich oilman's wife with her resplendent in her pearls, and

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Speaker 2: then he knew who to start finding out where they lived,

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Speaker 2: stake out their mansion, maybe crash a garden party as

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Speaker 2: a posing like a guest in a tuxedo, which he did,

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Speaker 2: and then he would wander the house and try to

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Speaker 2: get a sense of where the jewels might be when

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Speaker 2: he came back, and sometimes even leave windows open so

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Speaker 2: it would be easier to do.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties. And this is in New York.

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Speaker 1: What is the process for then fencing whatever jewelry you've stolen?

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Speaker 1: Is there like a route that a diamond ring would

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Speaker 1: take so that it was not identified and could go

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Speaker 1: on the black market somewhere?

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Speaker 2: He talked a bit about that. He talked about no

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Speaker 2: shortage of fences, and he talked about in detail of

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Speaker 2: the first time he went to a jeweler down on

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Speaker 2: the Bowery, which was known for underhand or underworld diamond

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Speaker 2: and gem exchange. And how easy it was to fence,

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Speaker 2: he said after years later, after he was caught, he said,

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Speaker 2: you know I had fences, so that would have taken

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Speaker 2: the Statue of Liberty off my hands, didn't matter how

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Speaker 2: hot or big it was. But a lot of his

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Speaker 2: loote he never explained exactly where it went, but it

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Speaker 2: was quite common for gems to end up in Antwerp,

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Speaker 2: where there was a huge diamond trade, but it was

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Speaker 2: affected by the war. New York really in these years

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Speaker 2: became one of the big centers of the diamond trade.

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Speaker 2: Barry once said that basically, if you want to find

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Speaker 2: out where my loot went, just look at some woman

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Speaker 2: wearing some fine diamond jewelry. It's probably been recut or

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Speaker 2: reset and it's probably something I already stole.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go set the scene for one of these

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Speaker 1: really good break ins. What's the one that you like

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Speaker 1: to dig into the most? I know, who are these

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Speaker 1: people and when do they leave? And how does he

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Speaker 1: get in? And all of that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there are so many. He robs a Wall Street

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Speaker 2: player named Jesse Livermore, who's a legendary make fortunes Lose

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Speaker 2: fortune guys of the era whose books on how to

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Speaker 2: play the stock market are still in print. He robs them.

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Speaker 2: He robs Jesse Donahue, who is the heiress of the

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Speaker 2: Woolworth five and dime chain and credibly one of the

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Speaker 2: wealthiest women in the United States. He robs her suite.

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Speaker 2: But I do think his most audacious robbery is in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty four, and it's during the visit of the

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Speaker 2: Prince of Wales, the future Edward the Eighth to Long Island,

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Speaker 2: which is a spectacle. He's supposed to be there vacationing

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Speaker 2: it's not an official visit. He's feted by all of

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Speaker 2: the rich families on Long Island, which coincidentally, of course,

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Speaker 2: is Barry's hunting ground. And Barry goes to an oilman's mansion,

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Speaker 2: an oilman named Cosden, who is hosting a party for

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Speaker 2: the Prince, and he goes there to scope out the

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Speaker 2: jewels because he figures royalties a good magnet for jewels,

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Speaker 2: and ends up meeting the Prince and taking him, believe

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Speaker 2: it or not, on a tour of Manhattan Speakeasi's that night.

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Speaker 2: So he befriends the Prince of Wales, and then a

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Speaker 2: few days later he comes back to the mansion and

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Speaker 2: steals jewels from the oilman and one of his guests,

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Speaker 2: who was Lady mount Batten. Because of the mount Batten's

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Speaker 2: the cousin of the Prince of Wales, we're staying in

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Speaker 2: the mansion. So he managed to rob royalties. This was

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Speaker 2: a huge international story. Tens of thousands of dollars worth

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Speaker 2: of jewelry swipe, a huge embarrassment in the midst of

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Speaker 2: this sort of semi official royal tour, and no one

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Speaker 2: knew who did it until ultimately, decades later he owned

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Speaker 2: up to it.

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Speaker 1: How did he not get caught? Actually, probably the better

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Speaker 1: question is how long was it before he got caught?

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Speaker 1: Was he just really that good or it sounds like

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Speaker 1: he might have had some close calls.

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Speaker 2: Well, he really was that good. He started about nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty and the next seven years. It's hard to get

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Speaker 2: an accurate figure. I was able to trace a lot

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Speaker 2: of his robberies from the press at the time, which

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Speaker 2: of course at that point wasn't tied to him. No

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Speaker 2: one knew he did it. In today's money, about sixty

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Speaker 2: million dollars worth of jules. He's only through fences, only

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Speaker 2: getting maybe ten percent of that. He was really that good.

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Speaker 2: He never left a fingerprint, always wore gloves. He would

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Speaker 2: borrow a ladder from the estate, from a garage or

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Speaker 2: the estate next door. Particularly planned his exit's, watched for

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Speaker 2: the comings and goings of security guards. Knew how close

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Speaker 2: the nearest train station was, because often he wouldn't drive away,

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Speaker 2: he would just go to the nearest train station, jump

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Speaker 2: on the train. He was operating in Long Long Island

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Speaker 2: and in Westchester County, where there were a lot of

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Speaker 2: estates of very wealthy New Yorkers. He knew the timetables

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Speaker 2: of the trains. He knew how close the nearest police

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Speaker 2: station was. He was able to estimate, Okay, if I'm

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Speaker 2: caught and there's a call, how much time do I have.

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Speaker 2: He was so good and so smart that, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons he was able to go so long.

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Speaker 1: At what point do you think the police in New

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Speaker 1: York are making the connection that you have some wealthy

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Speaker 1: people who are targeted, and we can talk about some

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Speaker 1: of those people in a little bit. How long does

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Speaker 1: it take for the police to make a connection when

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Speaker 1: the police, I know, are starting to deal with prohibition

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Speaker 1: and probably some organized and all of the immigrants coming

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Speaker 1: in and out of New York, and they're busy, But

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Speaker 1: do you think they've made this connection at some point?

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Speaker 2: Well, this was another aspect of how smart Barry was.

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Speaker 2: He targeted a lot of estates in Nassau County on

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Speaker 2: Long Island, everything from Wall Street big wigs to established

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Speaker 2: families like the Vanderbilts lived out there. No great Cops

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Speaker 2: and robbers story is complete without the cops. And there

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Speaker 2: is a fellow out there named Harold King who rises

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Speaker 2: to detective just as Barry is starting to rob all

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Speaker 2: these homes, and he knows there is a connection. He

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Speaker 2: knows there's somebody pulling these dinner time robberies, and he

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Speaker 2: always seems to be one step behind, but its very

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Speaker 2: clear he wants to catch this fellow. Barry is smart

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Speaker 2: when they finally, like, for instance, at one point, they

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Speaker 2: start putting patrol cars full of armed police out on

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Speaker 2: the roads of rural Nassau County around some of these

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Speaker 2: estates to try to catch him. He simply disappears, and

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Speaker 2: he surfaces in Westchester County north of New York, same

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Speaker 2: kind of layout and simply picks up where he left off,

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Speaker 2: and he becomes known as the latter thief in Westchester County,

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Speaker 2: and when the heat gets put on there, suddenly Nassau

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Speaker 2: County gets targeted again. And he only committed he committed

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Speaker 2: a major robbery at a hotel, the Plaza Hotel in

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Speaker 2: New York in nineteen twenty five, But otherwise I found

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Speaker 2: no evidence that he actually went into the city. So

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Speaker 2: he was dealing with smaller county police forces not as

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Speaker 2: well organized. That made it a little easier, I think

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Speaker 2: for him to keep one step ahead.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know, we talk about this with

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Speaker 1: modern cases, jurisdiction issues when counties don't talk, and certainly

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, you would definitely have that. What

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Speaker 1: about the media, are they picking up on anything. I

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Speaker 1: know this is happening in far flung areas in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: but this seems like a pretty sexy story for New

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Speaker 1: York City media.

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Speaker 2: Oh No, the newspapers covered his crimes. But as I said,

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Speaker 2: as I was doing my research, I had to piece

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Speaker 2: together from a confession and confessions he made of who

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Speaker 2: he robbed to then go back and find those those

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Speaker 2: crimes because of the stature of a lot of the victims. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the press coverage there was a lot of press coverage,

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Speaker 2: great interviews with victims who'd almost caught him. Some of

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Speaker 2: the victims shot at him, you know. So it was

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Speaker 2: a dangerous job he had taken on. The New York

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Speaker 2: Daily News feasted on this kind of any chance to

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Speaker 2: expose the upper crust of New York society. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of press coverage of his crimes.

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Speaker 2: But of course nobody knows. Sometimes they're linked together. But

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Speaker 2: as this shadowy Ladder burglar, and for a long time

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Speaker 2: the west Chest in Nassau County, authorities never put together

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Speaker 2: that they were all looking for the same person. It

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Speaker 2: was like there was a different burglar doing similar things

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Speaker 2: in the neighboring county.

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Speaker 1: Were burglaries unusual in this time period? Or was this

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Speaker 1: sort of part of the course for folks like the

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Speaker 1: Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers, the wealthier people. This is of

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Speaker 1: course before Adt and Brinks. But were burglary is something

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Speaker 1: that were unexpected in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 2: No, and Barry even had a way to circumvent guard

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Speaker 2: dogs and alarm systems. Guard dogs he would simply feed,

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Speaker 2: and plus he also had a pet dog. So the

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Speaker 2: dogs would smell his dog and be put at ease.

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Speaker 2: And this policeman, Harold King, would showed up at one

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Speaker 2: estate and the dogs were snarling at him, and he's like,

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Speaker 2: how could this burglar have done this? Another method Barry

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Speaker 2: used was he would dress up in overalls and go

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Speaker 2: to a door and fly us a card of the

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Speaker 2: security system and say we're here to do maintenance, and

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Speaker 2: then they would be allowed some servant would allow them

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Speaker 2: into the closet where all the very rudimentary burglar alarms

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Speaker 2: were and he'd simply take the main bell, bend back

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Speaker 2: the hammer that would hit it. Suddenly the alarms deactivated,

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Speaker 2: and he did that on several occasions. He also liked

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Speaker 2: when Pinkerton's or some of these other detective and alarm

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Speaker 2: firms of the time would post a sign. He was

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Speaker 2: always grateful for the warning that he would then have

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Speaker 2: to deal with an alarm system.

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Speaker 1: Did the Pinkertons ever enter into the story into your.

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Speaker 2: Book, Well, they do in the sense that they're involved

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Speaker 2: in a couple of the investigating a couple of the burglaries.

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Speaker 2: There are some other private detectives who become a nemesis

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Speaker 2: for Barry, but Oddly, one of the detectives, William Burns,

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Speaker 2: becomes involved because he his agencies looking into it, and

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Speaker 2: Barry tells the story that he spotted him driving by

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Speaker 2: one day. He recognized William Burns, who was quite famous.

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Speaker 2: He'd been head of a precursor of the FBI in

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Speaker 2: the Department of Justice briefly and was a well known figure.

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Speaker 2: So Barry followed him home, broke in and stole from

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Speaker 2: him back, almost as a lark, just to show he

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Speaker 2: could do it.

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Speaker 1: Was he not scared of being caught, or was he

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Speaker 1: just that sort of confident, or maybe he didn't care

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Speaker 1: because he knew at some point he would be caught.

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Speaker 2: Well, he cared, and that's why he took on an

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Speaker 2: accomplice because he started to you know, as there were

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Speaker 2: more and more crimes and he wasn't the only jewel

344
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Speaker 2: thief burglar of the era. He realized he could run

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Speaker 2: into a watchman who was walking at different rounds than

346
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Speaker 2: he caught in his planning, could be a dog he

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Speaker 2: couldn't do it, could be a homeowner who pulled a

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Speaker 2: gun on him and he had no time to react.

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Speaker 2: So he did realize it was a dangerous game and

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Speaker 2: the way he described that. Now, one thing we haven't

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Speaker 2: talked about is where a lot of this money went.

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Speaker 2: And Barry was a gambler.

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Speaker 1: I was wondering about his life. That was my next question.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about his personal life around all of this.

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Speaker 2: He was like one of these Broadway figures. I think,

356
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Speaker 2: like Nathan Detroit in Guys and Dolls. I mean, he

357
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 2: ran crap games, He ran current games, even ran his

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Speaker 2: own gambling club at one point under an assumed name.

359
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Speaker 2: For him, it was, you know, Broadway Chorus girls, gambling

360
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Speaker 2: high stakes, blowed tens of thousands of dollars in a night,

361
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Speaker 2: never think anything of it, and then go out and

362
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Speaker 2: steal more. And the way he described it was look,

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Speaker 2: it was the times. It was easy come, easy go.

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Speaker 2: And as well, he knew that his next job could

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Speaker 2: be his last, so it was live for the moment.

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Speaker 2: And this is why he's such a product of his time,

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Speaker 2: that whole generation that we know through the Great Gatsby

368
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 2: and other great works of the twenties. Anything goes, devil

369
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: may care ethos that pervaded the nineteen twenties because of

370
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Speaker 2: the horror of war, of the pandemic of the Spanish

371
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Speaker 2: flu pandemic. I mean, people realized how fragile life was,

372
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Speaker 2: and the times were good. There was plenty of money.

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Speaker 2: Barry knew how to get plenty of money, so he

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Speaker 2: lived accordingly.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think his experience in the war,

376
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Speaker 1: which sounds terrible, not surprisingly, how much do you think

377
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Speaker 1: that played into his life later on in this attitude.

378
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Speaker 1: I mean, is this maybe a little PTSD coming out

379
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Speaker 1: and that's what's happening or what do you think?

380
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Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean I think he certainly knew what

381
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Speaker 2: a gun could do, so that might have put him

382
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: on edge. I think he had endured a risk to

383
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: see this as a manageable risk, and again that would

384
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: maybe play into the care, the care and the planning.

385
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Speaker 2: I mean right down to the fact that he would

386
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Speaker 2: wait for a time nights when there was no moon

387
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Speaker 2: so it would be darker. And you know, I'm reading

388
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Speaker 2: this in the research and I'm thinking, well, is that true?

389
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Speaker 2: And then I looked at some of his long island crimes.

390
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 2: They were all a month apart on new moons. So yeah,

391
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Speaker 2: that's so this was the kind of care and planning

392
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Speaker 2: he took. I think he was scarred to some extent

393
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Speaker 2: by that. But I don't want to overdo that because

394
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 2: throughout his life interviews, he gave a memoir published decades

395
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: ago that he cooperated with just his own words. I mean,

396
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Speaker 2: you really get the sense of this fellow who was

397
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 2: a product of his time. It's like and even said,

398
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 2: you know it was the times, why not live? Well,

399
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: he didn't have a trust fund, he didn't have jewelry

400
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Speaker 2: unless he went out and stole it, and he he

401
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: wasn't playing the stock market, so he had to find

402
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: some way to get into this frenzy of easy money

403
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: that defined his time.

404
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: Well, I could be wrong, but my reading of the

405
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 1: other book you did about Doctor Cream, I could not

406
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: find anything redeemable about Doctor Cream. Did you find anything

407
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: that you felt like would be relatable to a reader

408
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: about Arthur Berry? Just based on saying sort of this

409
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: is a victimless crime and maybe trying to justify it

410
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: to himself a little bit, Do you feel like there

411
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: was anything redeemable? Did he do anything for anyone else

412
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Speaker 1: other than himself?

413
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Speaker 2: Well, this leads to where the story goes, because, Okay,

414
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: as good as it was to this point, what happens

415
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 2: after he's caught in nineteen twenty seven really gives a

416
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: measure of the man, because I maybe we should as

417
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: good a time as any to talk about that. In

418
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: the mid twenties, he meets a woman named Anna Blake,

419
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: a recent widow, and it suddenly becomes a love story.

420
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: Now it's pretty clear that she doesn't know what he

421
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: does for a living, and she's actually a political operative

422
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: in the Tammany Hall organization and she's quite well respected.

423
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: They get married. For two years they're married, all seems

424
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: to be going well. She doesn't pry into his business.

425
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: She thinks he makes his money gambling. But then in

426
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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven, he's caught and worse, Anna Blake is

427
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: caught with some small a small amount of jewelry that

428
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: Barry had stolen and given to her. So he confesses

429
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Speaker 2: to save her from being charged and goes to prison,

430
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Speaker 2: and he's facing twenty five years in prison. He even

431
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: says as he goes in, by then, you know we

432
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: won't have cars, we'll all be driving airplanes. Well that

433
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: that didn't happen, but a few years in. By nineteen

434
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: twenty nine, he's in some of the toughest prison is

435
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: a New York state and he finds out Anna has

436
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: cancer and he's afraid above all else that she's going

437
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: to die and he won't be there for So he

438
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: plans a prison break and he breaks out and gets

439
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: shot twice bus his ankle jumping off a wall, gets

440
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: out with four other guys and sparks one of the

441
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: bloodiest riots they've left, but one of the bloodiest riots

442
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: in New York prison history is sparked by this, and

443
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: it gives him some time to live with her as

444
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: a fugitive.

445
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: Ok. We have to go back and talk about this

446
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: in more detailed, Diana. So he is turned in by someone, Right.

447
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: He is stealing from people for about off and on

448
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: for seven years, right, and we're saying upwards of sixty

449
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: million dollars worth of jewels, and he has caught. Do

450
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: you from the confession? Now, I'm glad to know what

451
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: the sources from his confession. Did you get a sense

452
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: that this was a relief a little bit that he

453
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: was caught or was he devastated because of course you

454
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: know he has Anna.

455
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: Now, well, I don't think he was happy about it

456
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: because he knew he was going away for a long time. Yeah,

457
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: but he did the noble thing. He loved her so

458
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 2: much he did not want ertaint it by this, so

459
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: he made a deal with the District attorney in Nassau County.

460
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: He said, look, I'll tell you what I did, but

461
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: you got to let Anna go. And they were convinced

462
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: that she didn't know. And there was really good detailed

463
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: the police in the room when he confessed, and the

464
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: DA actually did accounts of this, and it was pretty

465
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: clear that she was beyond mortified and shocked when she

466
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: found out what he really did for a living. But

467
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: she stuck by him, so he never stood trial. He

468
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: pled guilty, was all over in a few minutes in

469
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: a courtroom, twenty five years a twenty five year sentence,

470
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: and he was looking at being well into his fifties

471
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: before he ever got out. And I was about eight

472
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: years older than him, so he knew that there was

473
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: no guarantee. She'd promised to wait for him, and she

474
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: did visit him in prison, but for the first few

475
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: years there was no way of knowing when the ordeal

476
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: would end.

477
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: Well, tell me a little bit about Anna nineteen twenties

478
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: and she's a political operative for Tammany Hall Democrats. That

479
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: number one seems like a surprising job. To me, but

480
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: maybe you can describe a little bit about what she did.

481
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: And number two, was she affected by everything that happened

482
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: once it was revealed she.

483
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 2: Was part of a new wave or a wave of

484
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: women who became involved in politics after women got the

485
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: vote in the early nineteen twenties, so they were able

486
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: to vote for the first time, and then in the

487
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty presidential election, so the political powers that be

488
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: recognized the power of women in politics, and Anna became

489
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: a pole captain. So she was responsible for several blocks

490
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: in southern part of Harlem. Her job was to be

491
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: the eyes and ears for the political boss if someone

492
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: had a problem, if somebody needed a job. And yeah,

493
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: I mean it was patronage and corruption. And she worked

494
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: for a fellow named Jimmy Hines, who a decade later

495
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: went to prison for racketeering and collusion with gangsters. But

496
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 2: this was all in the future. There's no evidence that

497
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: she was any more than a good, loyal, democratic porty functionary.

498
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: But how this affected her job, well, Jimmy Hines, of

499
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: all people, totally disowned her, even though she clearly worked

500
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: for him for years and then because of what's about

501
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: to happen, with Arthur Berry's return, she drops off the map,

502
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: so she stops doing that so she can be with him.

503
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: And of course she's under suspicion of knowing what Berry's

504
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: up to and where he might be after he escapes,

505
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: So that's kind of the end of her. But she

506
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: was fascinating because it was such a wonderful window into

507
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: the role of women in politics in the twenties. And

508
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: that's one thing I was really glad to do, was

509
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: to make her a full character in this. She hadn't

510
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: been in the bits that had been written about this,

511
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: but I found a tell all series she did for

512
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: King Features, one of these syndicated and full of photos

513
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: all about her background, how she reacted to all this.

514
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: It was just wonderful stuff, and it made her such

515
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: a big part of the story. And she was written

516
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: out of history so much that when I talked to

517
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: Barry's relatives, I mean some of them had never even

518
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: heard of her, and they never knew he was married.

519
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

520
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: So it was recovering her as a character. You know.

521
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: It's like I said, I started out telling a true

522
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: crime story and it turns into this tragic love story.

523
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: So she sort of disappears from the pages you know,

524
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 1: of history, and I think it's wonderful. I always try

525
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: to find good female characters in a story. We often

526
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: write about men committing crimes, and sometimes there against women,

527
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: and many times that there against women. And so when

528
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: we have someone there who is another character that you

529
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: can develop, particularly like what you did shining a light

530
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: on I did not know that women were becoming more

531
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: involved with politics in nineteen twenties New York. So that's

532
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: really fascinating. So let's pick back up with Arthur Barry.

533
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: He is sent where to prison once he pleads guilty

534
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: and takes the plea deal.

535
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: He's initially sent to sing Sing, the notorious prison on

536
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: the Hudson, and that actually is is it's the closest

537
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: major prison to New York City, so Anne is able

538
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: to visit him. But then he ends up sent to

539
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: Auburn in the Finger Legs area, much more distant, much

540
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: harder to get to, and and he's in there in

541
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine, when Anna well, he can tell her

542
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: health isn't good, and she doesn't want to tell him.

543
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: When he finally discovers she has cancer, you know, cancer,

544
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine you know, the prospects weren't good. I

545
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: don't know a lot of the details more than that,

546
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: really what kind or what intervention was taken. It's just

547
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: over the next number of years her health was precarious

548
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: at times. And this resolves Barry again, sort of like

549
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: a knight in shining armor, to decide he's going to

550
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: risk everything to be with her. He didn't care about

551
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: his freedom, He just wanted out to be with her.

552
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: Well, before we get to the way he gets out,

553
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: tell me about Sing Sing, because I've written about Auburn,

554
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: and we've also Paul Holds and I and Buried Moones

555
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: have tackled his story about Auburn State Prison. And I

556
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: will want to ask you some questions about what their

557
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: system was when Arthur Barry was there, because they had

558
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: an unusual system in the eighteen hundreds. But tell me

559
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: why Sing Sing when he was there, Why Sing Sing

560
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: was so notorious.

561
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: There was a warden called Laws who was there in

562
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: the twenties who was a real progressive ward and progressive

563
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: in penalogy. So the conditions weren't as die or as

564
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: draconian as they were in the nineteenth century, but the

565
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: facilities were, I mean Barry was in a three foot wide,

566
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 2: six foot deep stone lined coffin basically that passed as

567
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: a cello. There was moderate modernization underway, a new prison

568
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: was being built on the hill above the old one,

569
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: but Barry wasn't there for any of that, so he

570
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: was at the tail end of some of the worst

571
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: of it. And of course Sing Sing was the sight

572
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: of a death house and the electric chair, so you know,

573
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: he was there when some other notorious murderers were executed,

574
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: but he was only there for a couple of years.

575
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: But actually in his time there he became the protege

576
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: of a fellow named Chapin, who had been a newspaper

577
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: editor in New York who'd murdered his wife. And Chapin

578
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 2: became known as the Roseman of Sing Sing and because

579
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: he landscaped it and just took a desolate prison yard

580
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: and turned it into a garden worthy of the kind

581
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: of estates that Barry would have robbed. And so Berry

582
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: worked with him for a few years at Sing Sing

583
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: before his transfer. And Auburn was again very old institution.

584
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: We're talking nineteenth century constructions, so it was still a

585
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: pretty brutal. It was a really brutal place to be. Now.

586
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was like this in nineteen twenties,

587
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: but my third book actually was about Edward Ruloff, who

588
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: was in Auburn State prison in the eighteen forties, and

589
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: Paul Hols and I tackled a case about a black

590
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: man who was erroneously imprisoned for stealing a horse at

591
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: the exact same time that Edward Rulolf was there. And

592
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: for those two stories I was able to piece together

593
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: just horrific, what a draconian, terrible place. When both of

594
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: these men were there. They had the silent system where

595
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: every man got his own cell, but no one was

596
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: allowed to speak ever, or you were severely beaten, which

597
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff, as a scholar, loved, the man I think

598
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: it was Thomas Jennings hated. So it was the worst

599
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: of the worst. Do any of these things ring a

600
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: bell with you? For nineteen twenties when Arthur was there,

601
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: I know he was only there for a few years.

602
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 2: Right. The Auburn system, which is what it became known

603
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: as because it was pioneered there, is exactly as you've

604
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: described it. But by the nineteen twenties that was over

605
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: the men weren't wearing striped uniforms, they weren't walking in lockstep.

606
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: There was no rule of silence. But what they really

607
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 2: had was overcrowding. The prison was horribly overcrowded. Men were

608
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: sleeping in the hallways, and the facilities were a century

609
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: on a date. So it was just it was more

610
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: the conditions were bad. Any infraction of rules minor or

611
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 2: otherwise instant of exile to solitary confinement.

612
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: So tell me before his escape, how Arthur had spent

613
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: his time there. Was he doing work? Was he getting

614
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: along with everybody? Did you get an impression about how

615
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: he felt about Auburn?

616
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: Well, he he was the kind of guy I could

617
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 2: get along with anyone, you know, don't forget. I mean

618
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: he was he was charming enough to pass as some

619
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: kind of gentleman who had been invited to the party

620
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 2: of the rich and famous. So he was very adept

621
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: at that, you know, no sense that he didn't get

622
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 2: along with other people. He worked in the carpentry shop

623
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: at one point. Really his time in alle because at first,

624
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: because of the separation, it was really difficult for Anna

625
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: to visit as often, and the bigger concern became her

626
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 2: health started to make it hard for her to visit too.

627
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: He spent a lot of his time figuring out how

628
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: to get out of Auburn and enlisting a few men

629
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: to help them.

630
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: Well, let's go through that. Tell me, you know, and

631
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: in as much detail as you can, tell me what

632
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: ends up happening, what's the day like, and what is

633
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: his preparation like for this.

634
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: What very figured out was that there was a sort

635
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: of a built in vulnerability to the prison. A couple

636
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: of guards on a Sunday when the most guards we

637
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: hit the day off were between the inmates and the

638
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: armory where all the guns were stored in case there

639
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: was a breakout. So enlisting what was known as a trustee,

640
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: an inmate who was seen as not a threat and

641
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: not an escape threat, they got him to knock on

642
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: the door and he was allowed into this sort of

643
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: outer guard room, and then Barry and three of his

644
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: friends rush in and overpower the guards helped themselves to

645
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: some guns. So now they've got to get out. Whether

646
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 2: this was planned or not. One of the men went

647
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: to a balcony and the prison yard was full of

648
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 2: inmates who were just you know, enjoying stretching their legs

649
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: or playing pickup baseball or whatever in the yard, screams

650
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: at them, holds up a gun, screams at them, and says,

651
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 2: now it's your chance join us. So that's what sparked

652
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: the riot. Wow, Barry and his companions head for the

653
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: front gate. They use a guard as exactly where Barry's

654
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: standing was not clear, but he's part of the group.

655
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: They're using a guard as a human shield. The guards

656
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: on the wall are hesitant to take shots because they

657
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: can't tell friend from foe. Some of the inmates of

658
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 2: grab bits of yards uniforms. This all ends with Barry

659
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: trying to figure out whether to jump when he shot twice,

660
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 2: and the decisions made for him, and he goes over

661
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: the wall. He gets away, but I'll leave the rest

662
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: of that to your imagination. Do you read the book?

663
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: So he gets away, and then he ends up reuniting

664
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: with Anna, who is a long way away. I mean,

665
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: what is that travel like? To get from where Auburn

666
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: is to wherever she is?

667
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: He stole a car for part of it, took a train.

668
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: He was banged up, bleeding from being shot.

669
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 2: Nobody challenged him. He said he had a cover story

670
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: that he'd been in a barroom fight. I'm not clear

671
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: if he ever had to use it, but he got

672
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: back to New York and she had a place waiting

673
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: for him. He laid low there. They ended up in

674
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: New Jersey and ultimately in a rural part of New

675
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: Jersey where he thought he'd be safe. And for a

676
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 2: number of years, even though the police were watching Anna

677
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: figuring they could find Anna, they could find him, they

678
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: were able to sort of carry on some of the

679
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: Anna later described it as the best years of their lives.

680
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: Were you surprised that Anna was okay with this some

681
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: woman who is obviously progressive and working for Tammany at

682
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: the time, and her career is ruined by her husband,

683
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: and then you know, this happens. It just seems like

684
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: this is not part of her moral compass either.

685
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 2: Well, as I said, it's a love story. She never wavered,

686
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: she never wavered in her support. Wow. Yeah, she'd been

687
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: horribly betrayed. He lied to her, He put her in

688
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: jeopardy of going to prison. She forgave all that. The

689
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: depth of devotion is amazing, and the risks she was

690
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: willing to take, I mean, she could have been charge

691
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: as an accessory or harboring a fugitive after he got out.

692
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: The way she put it was, you know, anytime I

693
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: can spend with him, I'll do it. I'll do what

694
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: it takes. And I mean other than harboring a fugitive

695
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: her husband, I mean she didn't break the law otherwise.

696
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: I mean she was a you know, she didn't fundamentally

697
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 2: change from being a law abiding person. But she made

698
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: it clear that this was her priority, and he done

699
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: this for her, and she would do what she could

700
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: for him.

701
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: I'm curious did anybody else escape along with him, and

702
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: if so, what happened to those folks?

703
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: Well, the three more escaped, and within weeks or a

704
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: couple of months, they were all rounded up. And that

705
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: left Barry Yeah as the one who seemed to have

706
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: made a clean break of it. And just the speed

707
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: with which some of the other escapees were caught probably

708
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: reflected how well he planned not just the break in,

709
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: but what he would need when he get out, and

710
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: of course having Anna to help him.

711
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: Now give me the times here, So when does he

712
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: go into prison and when does he escape?

713
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: That timel like he goes in in the summer of

714
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven. He escapes in the summer of nineteen

715
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: twenty nine. So he's in Sing Sing and in Auburn

716
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: at that point for a little over.

717
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: Two years, and she has cancers starting in I'm assuming

718
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, and that's why he tries.

719
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: To leave exactly. Yeah, that's as best as I can determine.

720
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: This is why he escapes in nineteen twenty nine.

721
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 1: So he is reunited with her. They have wonderful years.

722
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: It sounds like together. When do things change for him

723
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: where we now have this confession He just my chance.

724
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: Is spotted, And part of what catches him is he's

725
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: a bit of a stranger in rural New Jersey at

726
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: a time when every citizen of New Jersey and policemen

727
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: and law enforcement official is looking for the Lindberg kidnapper,

728
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: and he gets on the radar that way, he's actually

729
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: accused of being the kidnapper, because of course he was

730
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 2: an expert break and enter artist. He never kidnapped anyone.

731
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: So there's a flurry of press attention saying is that

732
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: Lindbergh kidnapperr been caught, But that's ultimately how he was exposed.

733
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: But before he was arrested, they knew who he was,

734
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: but he got on the police radar. He was using

735
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: another name. He was calling himself Jim Toner, but ultimately

736
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: was arrested in nineteen thirty two sent back to prison.

737
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: So he was out for three years. And how was

738
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: Anna's health during this time?

739
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: At times, well, she sort of helped nurse him after

740
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 2: his gunshot wounds. She makes it clear that there were

741
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 2: times when she was so ill he had to do

742
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,479
Speaker 2: everything for her as they were living this life under

743
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,959
Speaker 2: the radar. But she came through that and she lived

744
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: till nineteen forty.

745
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

746
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: Again, I just don't know the details. There's not a

747
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: lot of d tale about what she had and how

748
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: she dealt with it. It sounds like most of the time

749
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: she was in pretty good health because, as I said,

750
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: she would later say, it was the best cheers of

751
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: their lives together.

752
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: Now, under what circumstances do we have Anna's side of

753
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: the story? You said she did she write a memoir

754
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: or something.

755
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, she did a syndicated series of features for one

756
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: of the syndicates, and so every week for seven or

757
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: eight weeks, there was a different aspect of her story

758
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: Their lives together. The headline was my life of love

759
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 2: and fear as the wife of the great jewel Thief,

760
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: something like that. It was the same headline every time,

761
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: and you know, full of photos of their lives together,

762
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: very candid stuff. It was material I saw nowhere else.

763
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: What motivated her money? They must have paid her a

764
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: lot of money for that.

765
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: I suggest that she probably was. I mean by then,

766
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the press had everything from her

767
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: fact she was older than Barry, to her looks, to

768
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: actual accusations that she was like a gangster's accomplice. She'd

769
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: endure it a lot from the press, so it must

770
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: have taken quite a bit for her to want to

771
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 2: tell her side. But I think it also speaks of

772
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: her courage and her determination that despite you know, the

773
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: way this can be twisted against her, that she defended

774
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: herself and Barry as well well.

775
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: I always think it's interesting when criminals write not Anna

776
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: but Barry, When criminals write up their story and you

777
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: know they're trying to take control of their narrative. What

778
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: do you think Arthur Berry's motivation was to write this

779
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: book or to be involved with this book. Do you

780
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: think that there was a narrative that he wanted to

781
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: control here.

782
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: This would be the one in the early six teasing

783
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: me the memoir. He wasn't really a memoir. It was

784
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: a journalist named Neil Hickey did the book, and it's

785
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: not really ghost written. It's based on extensive interviews with Barry. Well.

786
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: Barry tried to live down his past, and he actually

787
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 2: went back to his hometown of Worcester after his eventual release,

788
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 2: and that's where we get sort of the redemption arc

789
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: of the story. From then on, he's a model citizen.

790
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 2: He's elected by his fellow veterans as head of one

791
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: of the local veterans association. He's declared Veteran of the

792
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: Year in Worcester. At some point he had told his

793
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: story to a couple of feature writers. He appeared in

794
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: Life magazine, which described him in the mid nineteen fifties

795
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: as the greatest jewel thief who ever lived. And that's

796
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: how I discovered his story. I found that article, it's

797
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: digitized online, and I thought, this is a great story.

798
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 2: And then Neil Hickey did a couple of features for

799
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 2: him for a magazine and that led to the relationship

800
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,479
Speaker 2: where they expanded it into a book. So I think

801
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: by then he had proven himself to have lived it down,

802
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: to have lived down is past, and he comes out

803
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: of the he comes off as sort of this exotic

804
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: living embodiment of the nineteen twenties excess, you know. And

805
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 2: I think the fact that he never hurt anyone. I mean, yeah,

806
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: he broke out of prison, but he's the one who

807
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 2: got shot, right. I just think he made him this

808
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: kind of likable rogue. And so he goes on to

809
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 2: even being on Johnny Carson when the book's being promoted,

810
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: and Johnny Carson asking the question everyone always asked, you know,

811
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: what happened to the loot? He always insisted there was

812
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 2: no loot, He had no buried stash waiting for him

813
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: when he got out. There's no evidence he did. And

814
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: he's said he very candidly said, no, I blew it

815
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: all and I wish I'd saved it.

816
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: What do you think is the theme of your story?

817
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: What do you want people to walk away with by

818
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: the time they reached the very last page of the book.

819
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: Well, I hope they'll think of it as what it is,

820
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 2: which is an incredibly amazing romp through the nineteen twenties

821
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: and nineteen thirties. I hope they'll be engaged by his audacity,

822
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: his skill. You know, there's some bizarre, stranger than fiction

823
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: moments here that are absolutely true. But I also think

824
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: that in the true crime, especially historical true crime, can

825
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: do more than just this is what happened. It's what's

826
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: to tell us about the time. And Barry is such

827
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 2: a product of the time. You know, he even said himself,

828
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, I could have made a mint on Wall Street.

829
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 2: I was a smart guy, I knew my way around,

830
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 2: I was charming. I just picked a different kind of business.

831
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: But he was very much a product of that live

832
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 2: for the day, live in the moment attitude that pervades

833
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: the writings of Scott Fitzgerald, that pervaded the decade, and

834
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: his story then goes into the nineteen thirties, where suddenly

835
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: it's darker, sort of rollicking crooks like Barrier now replaced

836
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 2: by public enemies like Bonnie and Clyde and Dillinger, you know,

837
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 2: who are killing people. And the mood darkens, the economy darkns,

838
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: life darkens, and all of that excess of the nineteen

839
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: twenties is gone, all that luster, and people are paying

840
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: the price economically in their lives and so is Barry

841
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: because now he's in prison.

842
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime story, check out the

843
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

844
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

845
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

846
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Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

847
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

848
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

849
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

850
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

851
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

852
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,640
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853
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