1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:01,520 Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 2: Molly Hemingway is a journalist, author, political commentator. She's the 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: editor in chief of The Federalist, which is a conservative 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: online magazine. She's probably best known the biggest audience as 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: a contributor on Fox News. She's known for a rather 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: insightful mind and a very astute ability to make a 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: point quickly, succinctly, directly, and that is a real skill 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: set that most people don't have. She's written multiple books, 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: Justice on Trial, The Cavanough Confirmation, and the Future of 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court, which I encourage you to read. It's 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: wonderful read. And yeah, anyway, so she sat down with 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: a student at Hillsdale College to talk about media bias 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: in America. And having heard this, you know, every week 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: we talk about what we're going to share with you 15 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: as the Saturday Podcast. We all agreed this met the test. 16 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: It's a long form that we can't play on the 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: air because it doesn't fit into our time segments that 18 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: we want to share with you. And we think that 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: our Saturday Podcast is a time when maybe you're cleaning 20 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: out the garage or rowing the grass, or sitting out 21 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: back having some ice tea, whatever that may be where 22 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: you're probably a little more open to a longer form 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: discussion that you may not be during the weekday when 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: you're rushing. Anyway, that's the plan, that's the programming strategy 25 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 2: behind this. We hope you like it. 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: Last time I saw you, I was staying in your basement. 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: Yes you were, and I was telling my roommates that 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 3: we were doing this conversation. I told them actually to 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: stop by AG's if they wanted to see you again. 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 4: They were asking, if you're going to stay in our house? 31 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: Right I did? 32 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 5: I will say, I mean I stayed with you because 33 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,919 Speaker 5: there was a housing shortage issue, correct, and you generously 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 5: took me in. 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: But I had a really great time. 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 5: Also, your house is ridiculously nice, much nicer than what 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 5: I was dealing with in college. 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 3: So yeah, we're kind of spoiled as college kids. But congratulations, 39 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 3: You're editor in chief is a Federalist. 40 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 4: How's that going? 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: It's going great. We just announced this a couple of 42 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: weeks ago. 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 5: I've been at the Federalists since we started in twenty 44 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 5: thirteen and have loved it and loved seeing what we've done, 45 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 5: and very excited to take the reins here. 46 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: What does your role as editor in chief look like, 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 3: because my understanding of editor in chief is maybe like 48 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: when I was in charge of my school newspaper, and 49 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 3: I feel like that's definitely different. 50 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: For the Federalists, it actually is probably the same. 51 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 5: I think there's like an editor's club where no matter 52 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 5: what it is, like you know, neighborhood newsletter or large publication, 53 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 5: you have some of the same things overseeing all the 54 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 5: other writers. And we have you know, staff writers, but 55 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 5: we also have quite a few contributors who are on 56 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 5: the outside just making sure we're covering all the important 57 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 5: things that should be covered. And that's particularly important in 58 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 5: our media environment where so many of the large media 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 5: outlets are just completely out to lunch or just worse 60 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 5: on how they report or characterize the news, how they 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 5: shape narratives, and it's just really important to not just 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 5: fight against that but but be aggressive in saying what 63 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 5: is actually important that's going on in the world, in 64 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 5: the country. 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: And so it's it's fun, but we never lack for work. 66 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: We're seeing today like such a divide in the media, 67 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: more of this like this left and this right kind 68 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: of competing against each other. Where do you think this 69 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 3: kind of began this divide where we have like left 70 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: leaning media and right leaning media. 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 5: So in this country, we actually used to have extremely 72 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 5: partisan media. If you read the newspapers at the time 73 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 5: of the founding and even for a long period after that, 74 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 5: they are extremely partisan. 75 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: They wear their bias on their sleeves. 76 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 5: And then we had this period of time in the 77 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 5: middle part of the previous century where we moved to 78 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 5: what a lot of people call the American model of journalism, 79 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 5: where you aim toward objectivity and you have just this 80 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 5: like voice of God with a shared set of facts, 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 5: and then people can make up their own mind. 82 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: About that shared set of facts. 83 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 5: And that was always more an ideal than reality, and 84 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 5: a lot of liberal advocacy actually got pushed through this model, 85 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 5: and it's just completely fallen a part in recent years, 86 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 5: as everybody with a pulse understands that the vast majority 87 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 5: of our corporate media has a hard left not just bias, 88 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 5: but propaganda approach to talking about really important things, you know, 89 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 5: global pandemics or you know, international affairs, or what's happening 90 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 5: in the country at any given time. 91 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: And the trust in today's media as kind of I 92 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 3: would say, it's not as trust. 93 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: Have you noticed that, I'm just a little bit. 94 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, where do you think this has really come from? 95 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: Yeah? 96 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 5: So it is off the charts bad for the corporate media. 97 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 5: Nobody really trusts them only like even their numbers aren't 98 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 5: great among democrat or or leftist readers. They are the 99 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 5: only ones who will report any amount of trust, and 100 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 5: that is purely a reflection of the fact that much 101 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 5: of the corporate media exists to advance their agenda. So 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 5: it's not really meaningful in any sense. But yeah, they've 103 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 5: completely lost the plot in recent years. 104 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: They went from some bias some extreme bias. 105 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 5: I always think it's funny that the first Republican president 106 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 5: to complain about bias was Dwight Eisenhower, who's been a 107 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 5: long complaint of the Republican Party and conservatives. 108 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: But in the last several years it's just become I mean, 109 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: just they have nothing. 110 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 5: They are there's so much embracing narrative pushing over reporting 111 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 5: of facts that there's nothing love. 112 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: What is the difference in reporting a narrative as opposed 113 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 3: to just reporting truth or facts? 114 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 5: So ideally you would be just whatever the thing is 115 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 5: that you're writing on, you'd be collecting facts and trying 116 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 5: to report them in a way that matched the scenario. 117 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 5: And what we've seen happen with our corporate media is 118 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 5: that they're not really interested in reporting facts. They're interested 119 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 5: in pushing a narrative. They want to push people into 120 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 5: doing something. Maybe it is accepting draconian lockdowns as a 121 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 5: response to the global pandemic. 122 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: So rather than just reporting honestly. 123 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 5: About what we know, what the rates of infection are, 124 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 5: what the rates of transmission are, they worry about how 125 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 5: reporting facts might affect their real goal, which is to 126 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 5: push lockdowns or to push a shutdown of the economy. 127 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 5: Have a certain political aim, and so they shape everything 128 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 5: to match the narrative rather than just letting the facts 129 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 5: go where they may. 130 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: And you saw that. I mean we've seen. 131 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 5: This for years, but particularly I think in response the 132 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 5: last couple of years with the global pandemic, there was 133 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 5: just an open acceptance of suppressing news for fear of 134 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 5: how it might affect political goals. 135 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: And that's very dangerous. 136 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 5: I mean, it's important that people you know, sometimes facts 137 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 5: are not fun to deal with, Like you take, for example, 138 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 5: the early days of the global pandemic, there was some 139 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 5: concern that maybe the Wuhan Institute of Virology had something 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 5: to do with the COVID nineteen and that was suppressed. 141 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 5: That was like violently suppressed. You couldn't talk about it, 142 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 5: and you could even be banned from social media. And 143 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 5: it would have been good to know that that was 144 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 5: a logical line of inquiry for foreign policy reasons, for 145 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 5: national security reasons, for health reasons. You know, who knows 146 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 5: who would have been saved, It might have affected vaccine development. 147 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 5: And yet it took like a year for that to 148 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 5: be allowed to be discussed. And that was all narrative 149 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 5: pushing instead of facts. 150 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 3: And so when we focus on the narrative, you mentioned 151 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: that it's like dangerous to the country. 152 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 4: In what ways? 153 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: Is it dangerous in so many ways? 154 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 5: Because now you think also of what happened to an 155 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 5: entire field public health professionals. 156 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: Which were largely held in. 157 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 5: High regard at the time this started. And you know, 158 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 5: I think people understand that public health professionals are like 159 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 5: anyone else, that you might believe something to be the 160 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 5: case and later you find out it's not true. But 161 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 5: because of the way that the media and public health 162 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 5: professionals work to kind of suppress information or to push narratives. 163 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 5: I think you've seen a decline of trust not just 164 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 5: in the media, but in the public health profession itself. So, 165 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 5: you know, this has been a very bad pandemic that 166 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 5: we've lived through. It's obviously taken many people's lives, it's 167 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 5: injured a lot of people, but it's not the worst 168 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 5: thing you could ever imagine happening. And if there were 169 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 5: something else unleashed upon the world that was even worse, 170 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 5: you can imagine that the last people you might trust 171 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 5: would be some of these same professionals that were so 172 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 5: wrong in the last couple of years. 173 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 3: Do you think today we value truth and like fact 174 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 3: reporting as opposed to people who reinforce our opinion. 175 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's human nature to want to have 176 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 5: your opinions reinforced. 177 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: I think studies have. 178 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 5: Shown that people very much flock to arguments that support 179 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 5: they're already held. 180 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: Biases, and that's just something that we all deal with, 181 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: even if we wish that we didn't. 182 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 5: And so we can personally work to combat that or 183 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 5: just make sure that we're not just accepting things because 184 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 5: it's what we want to believe is true by going 185 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 5: out of our way to seek out other viewpoints and 186 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 5: test our ideas against those viewpoints and just you know, 187 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 5: be well read. 188 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: Do you think it's possible to be completely objective in 189 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 3: journalism or is there always going to be a little 190 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: bit of that bias in there. 191 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 5: So when I was starting out, I was trained in 192 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 5: that ideal that you are aiming toward objectivity, and I 193 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 5: think it's a great way to be trained. You have 194 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 5: to work really hard to make sure that you are 195 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 5: looking at other viewpoints, including them, you know, questioning your assumptions, 196 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 5: and so I think that's important no matter what type 197 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 5: of journalists you are, you should always be thinking what 198 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 5: are the different arguments that are out there. 199 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: I'm not a huge believer in the. 200 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 5: Success of that American model of aiming toward objectivity. I 201 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 5: just saw how it didn't work and how it was 202 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 5: used to kind of. 203 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: I don't know it was. 204 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 5: It was something that made people feel like they were 205 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 5: doing something more than they were actually doing something. But 206 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 5: I still kind of prefer it to some of the 207 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 5: corruption that we've seen recently. Like I thought, I don't 208 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 5: know how much you remember what was going on in 209 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. 210 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: I was a freshman in high school that much. 211 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 5: But so that was the period where the media just 212 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 5: completely broken. They had been previously claiming that they were 213 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 5: nonpartisan and objective, and with the rise of the Republican 214 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 5: presidential primary with Donald Trump, they just completely broke and 215 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 5: they openly admitted that they felt that their job was 216 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 5: to interfere in the election, keep him from being elected, 217 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 5: you know, portray news in such a way so as 218 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 5: to decrease the chances of him being elected, not cover 219 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 5: news stories or cover and it just was really bad. 220 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 5: And I thought that after that effort failed in twenty sixteen, 221 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 5: that maybe they would return to this idea of pushing 222 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 5: facts instead of narratives, of not having everybody in the 223 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 5: newsroom be a crazy left winger, of promoting people who 224 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 5: weren't that way, firing people who were that way, you know. 225 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 5: I thought maybe it would be a big wake up call, 226 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 5: and instead they somehow got worse. I mean, twenty fifteen 227 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 5: twenty sixteen was less bad than the rest of that administration, 228 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 5: where they embraced this crazy conspiracy theory. 229 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: They pushed it. 230 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 5: They broke all of their own journalistic standards to push 231 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 5: out false, anonymously sourced stories, again pushing an agenda that 232 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 5: was not one that they should have been pushing, and 233 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 5: they just seem to be addicted to failure, and partly 234 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 5: because it's lucrative for them, like powerful forces, like this new. 235 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: Model of journalism. 236 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 5: I mean, Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post's it's a 237 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 5: good idea for him, as one of the world's wealthiest 238 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 5: and most powerful people, to be able to control a 239 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 5: major publication. All corporations kind of feel this way, and 240 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 5: so they don't care that they're hurting the country, maybe 241 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 5: even hurting the world. It's helping them in their bottom line, 242 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 5: and so they I don't see it changing anytime soon. 243 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: That's really bad news. 244 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 3: But yes, great, Well why did you really get into journalism? 245 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 3: Where did you first realize you want to get into journalism? 246 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 3: Was it because you can see it kind of going 247 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 3: down this path and we need people to kind of 248 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: oh combat that. 249 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a good question that I should probably have 250 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 5: a good answer too. But I guess I was interested 251 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 5: when I was younger. I think I started a school 252 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 5: newspaper in elementary school. 253 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: I was a yearbook editor. 254 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 5: For two years in high school, so I was interested 255 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 5: in it, but I knew I wanted to become an economist, 256 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 5: so I studied economics in school, and that's the road 257 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 5: that I thought I was going down. 258 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: And then I don't. 259 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 5: Really know exactly how it happened, except that everybody I 260 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 5: knew who I was friends with, they were journalists and 261 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 5: they really liked their jobs. They weren't paid that much, 262 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 5: but they really liked their jobs, and they enjoyed that 263 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 5: they could study different things and like cover this topic 264 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 5: one day and cover a different topic the next day, 265 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 5: and interview people. And I thought that it sounded fun, 266 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 5: and so I made a go of it. 267 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: And I loved it. 268 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 5: Like the first time I saw my byline, I was 269 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:57,239 Speaker 5: covering the FCC, you know, like the radio and recording industry, 270 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 5: and it was a totally boring story, but it was 271 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 5: my first byline, and I was totally hooked, and I 272 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 5: was like, this is what I'm gonna do. 273 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 4: Where was your first byline? 274 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: It was a publication called Radio and Records. 275 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 4: Oh cool. 276 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: You've always been pretty transparent about your faith. Have you 277 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: seen that affect your career or your reporting at all? 278 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 5: It's mostly helped, I can't. I mean, I'm maybe entirely helped. 279 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 5: So I think that some Lutheran and we have certain 280 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 5: things that just help us think through how to live 281 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 5: our lives, Like we have a strong views on vocation, 282 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 5: like you serve God by. 283 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: Serving your neighbor. 284 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 5: And you have different vocations, like you can be a daughter, 285 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 5: a wife, a mother, an editor, and you have different 286 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 5: roles in each vocation. And as a journalist, your job 287 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 5: is to serve others by telling factual things and bringing 288 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 5: people into a place where they might not have been 289 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 5: able to be before. You cover a congressional hearing, or 290 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 5: you cover an event to protest, and you get this 291 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 5: very special role to help other people, people who couldn't 292 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 5: otherwise know about it, And so I like that. 293 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: I like Also. 294 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 5: A commandment that I struggle with is putting the best 295 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 5: construction on what other people are saying. You know, we 296 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 5: teach that the commandment against bearing false witness is much 297 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 5: more than just not lying, but that you have to 298 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 5: really put the best construction on what other people are saying. 299 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 5: I obviously fail at that all the time, but I 300 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 5: like being reminded of that so that, you know, when 301 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 5: I want to go after someone, I think, well, what 302 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 5: were they trying to say? And can I articulate that 303 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 5: in a fair way and still critique it, but by 304 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 5: being as honest as I can be about what they're saying. 305 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 3: Do you think your faith has shaped your conservative values 306 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: or if that's led you kind of like down this 307 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: political and into your political beliefs at all. 308 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 5: My husband and I talk all the time about how 309 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 5: much the last few years have been very hard for 310 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 5: people in Washington, DC. 311 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: And I think that they make politics their religion. 312 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 5: It's everything for them, and power is everything for a 313 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 5: lot of people. And my husband's a journalist also, and 314 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 5: we love politics and we're really interested in it, but 315 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 5: the core of our lives is in our church and 316 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 5: our faith and like the higher things, eternal life, and 317 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 5: so what's happening in politics is so much less important 318 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 5: than our eternal salvation, and it gives us this balance 319 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 5: and perspective that I think helps you just not lose 320 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 5: your mind when things are a little bit in turmoil 321 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 5: around you. And that has been extremely helpful for us. 322 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: And being open about your faith and then also just 323 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: talking about politics, you face a lot of criticism. How 324 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: do you kind of handle that and not bend to 325 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: what these people are kind of like saying about you 326 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 3: or forcing you maybe try to do so. 327 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 5: I don't know I hear that, but I think actually 328 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 5: what I mostly received from people is just a profound 329 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 5: amount of gratitude. Like if you look in my email, 330 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 5: it's just full of people saying really nice things. And 331 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 5: I think it's about who do you want to be 332 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 5: liked by? And I remember when we started the Federalists, 333 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 5: someone said that we were dangerous because we didn't want 334 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 5: to be liked by the New York Times. And I 335 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 5: loved that because so many conservative media people, they're desperate 336 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 5: to get hired at the Atlantic, They're desperate to get 337 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 5: hired at the New York Times. I would I don't 338 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 5: even understand why you would want those things. I do 339 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 5: care about whether average Americans, who I think are the 340 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 5: backbone of this country, who have done so much and 341 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 5: never get represented in the media. I care what they think. 342 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 5: So I like who likes me, and I also like 343 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 5: who doesn't like me. 344 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 3: I understand, and I feel like the people that you're 345 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: looking to like you, those people that you talk about, 346 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: like the backbone of America. What's the best way for 347 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 3: like the average citizen to stay informed in today's political world. 348 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it takes a lot of effort. It 349 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 5: probably always took a lot of effort, but now, because 350 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 5: of what we were talking about, with the credibility of 351 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 5: the media being at an all time low, people are 352 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 5: aware that they can't trust some of the news sources 353 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 5: that they'd trusted previously, and so I think it was 354 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 5: just ortant to still get a wide, you know, wide 355 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 5: variety of inputs and make your do as much original 356 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 5: viewing of things as you can. Like, one thing that's 357 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 5: great about the Internet and everybody being the reporter is 358 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 5: you can you can kind of like watch a video 359 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 5: of a hearing yourself, or you can read an original 360 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 5: document yourself and make up your own mind about it. 361 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 5: And so for me personally, what I like to read, like, 362 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 5: the only real, big corporate media that I. 363 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: Read every day is the Wall Street Journal. Still like it. 364 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: It's not perfect, but I like it. 365 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 5: And then I use Real Clear Politics, which is a 366 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 5: website that kind of covers things from left, center and right, 367 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 5: kind of puts the best arguments forward from all perspectives, 368 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 5: and it updates regularly throughout the day. 369 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: So I love that. 370 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 5: And then I have like a highly curated social media 371 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 5: feed where people I trust I follow, and so I 372 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 5: think that's that's a good thing. 373 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: Find a voice you trust, find a voice who's. 374 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 5: Told difficult truths, you know, and just maybe keep listening 375 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 5: to them unless they give you a reason to stop. 376 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: Speaking of like biases, You've interviewed all types of people. 377 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: Do you prefer to interview someone who maybe agrees with 378 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: you politically or somebody who you kind of oppose in 379 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: a political way. 380 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 5: It's easier to interview people who you oppose, So I 381 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 5: would prefer that your questions just come naturally when you're thinking, like, 382 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 5: you know, they give you an answer and you just 383 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 5: instinctively think why that was a wrong answer, so you 384 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 5: can kind of navigate it better. It's harder to do 385 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 5: when you agree with someone. On the other hand, when 386 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 5: someone is, you know, more aligned with you, you kind 387 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 5: of can dig deeper in certain ways to flesh out 388 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 5: what's going on. But I'm not the world's best interviewer. 389 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 5: I've admitted that before. But I've gotten to interview really 390 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 5: high level people and it's you know, it's always. 391 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: It's always interesting. 392 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 5: But I find it like you have to have a 393 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 5: balance between going after the information that you came to 394 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 5: get you know you're you're usually there for a reason, 395 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 5: so letting the person that you're interviewing kind of have 396 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 5: a say in what they're gonna what they're going to 397 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 5: talk about. You know, I don't like just a completely 398 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 5: belligerent interview. I want to hear I want to really 399 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 5: come to understand what it is that they're thinking. 400 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 3: Well, you say you're not the best interviewer, but it's 401 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 3: like not every day that I get to ask you 402 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 3: for interviewing interviewing tips. 403 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 4: How do you prepare for an interview? 404 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 5: Oh, so I have interviewed. I mean, it's it's funny, 405 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 5: like I've done so many interviews now that usually I 406 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 5: just think about what it is that my my my 407 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 5: near goal is, which is a story where I probably 408 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 5: have a pretty good idea of what it is that 409 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 5: I want to find out and and just and just 410 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 5: I plot it out. 411 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: I practice like what I'm gonna what I'm going to ask. 412 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 5: But I also think like, if you can interview in person, 413 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 5: that is so much better than over the phone. And 414 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 5: during COVID times, I've had to do so much over 415 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 5: the phone, and you can't get a feel for what 416 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 5: how comfortable someone is or you know, when you're in person, 417 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 5: you can feel like, do they want to go deep here? 418 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 5: Do they want to you know? Did they pause in 419 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 5: a weird way and look at certain directions that you 420 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 5: know that they're thinking about something that you want to interrogate. 421 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 5: But I like to also just you know, if you 422 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 5: can interview someone in their office or in their home, 423 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 5: I love that because you get a little cues about 424 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 5: what's important to them, and you just can be more 425 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 5: comfortable with them by talking about like, oh, I see 426 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 5: that sports jersey, what's that about? 427 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 4: Yeah? 428 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 5: Or important well, and just kind of treat people as 429 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 5: people without without having to just be there for business. 430 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 5: But I think just as much research as you can 431 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 5: do beforehand so that you're not wasting time. 432 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: And I don't. 433 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: Know, so you've interviewed President Trump, who he's pretty high profile. 434 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 3: Do you have like a best Trump's story from like 435 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 3: that interview? 436 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 5: So I just want to first say that he is 437 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 5: the most difficult person in. 438 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: The world to interview. 439 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 5: I'd imagine, Yeah, I mean he's like you, you ask 440 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 5: him a question here, and he goes all the way 441 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 5: around before getting you know, and you're kind of trying 442 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 5: to bring him back to the thing. 443 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 4: That he does that. 444 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: I don't know. 445 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 5: He's a really interesting cat. I also think it's weird 446 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 5: because he's much nicer in person than he is. Like 447 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 5: on TV, he comes off like a total. 448 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah no, I understand, a taxionistic guy. 449 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 5: But then when you're in person with him, he's usually 450 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 5: just I don't know, he's much much more gentle. I 451 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 5: talked to this one reporter who said that most politicians 452 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 5: in public they're kissing babies and they're complimenting your wife, 453 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 5: and then in private they're just jerks. And then Trump 454 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 5: is the one who will insult your wife and like 455 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 5: attack the baby, but then in private be like, really 456 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 5: is sorry, but what was your question about, oh best 457 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 5: trum story. I don't know, he's just just from the 458 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 5: interview perspective. One thing that's interesting is he'll he has. 459 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: His own rules. 460 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 5: So you know, in journalism, you say this is on 461 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 5: the record, where it's on background, on background, So on 462 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 5: the record means you can use it totally un quote 463 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 5: the person, and on background means you can use the information, 464 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 5: but you can't tie it to the person that you're 465 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 5: talking to. And then off the record means it's more 466 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 5: like for your own context. You're not supposed to use it, 467 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 5: And then people come up with other things. They're funny, 468 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 5: like deep background, which is like, I really mean, don't. 469 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: Tie my name to it. But he'll say stuff like 470 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: this is off the record, but you can use it. 471 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: That's like what does that mean? 472 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 5: But in a weird way, like the more you're around him, 473 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 5: the more you understand exactly what he means. He means 474 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 5: that more like his background. I think, I hope it 475 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 5: hasn't been a problem yet those far. But so I've 476 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 5: interviewed him in the Oval Office, I've interviewed him elsewhere 477 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 5: in the White House. I've interviewed him at mar A 478 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 5: Lago several times, and he's just, you know, like I said, 479 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 5: you need a much more tenacious interviewer than I am 480 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 5: to have like a fully productive thing. But I've spent 481 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 5: a lot of time with him, and I find him 482 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 5: to be truly fascinating. He did teach me how to 483 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 5: take picture, which I think is funny. After one of 484 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 5: my interviews at mar A Lago for my book on 485 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 5: the twenty twenty election, I had realized, like I'd never 486 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 5: taken a picture of him, even though i'd you know, 487 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 5: I never had like, I had many opportunities, but I've 488 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 5: never done it. And so we're walking out of his 489 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 5: place and I said, well, you know, can I take 490 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: a picture of you? 491 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: And he said we Why don't we take one together? 492 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: And so we take a picture and his assistant shows 493 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: him the picture. 494 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 5: And he says, I don't like her, and I don't 495 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 5: like me, and he's like, let's move over here. So 496 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 5: we move over to this other location. We take it 497 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 5: and she shows him and he says, I like me. 498 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: I still don't like her. 499 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 5: And he's like, I'm gonna teach you how to take 500 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 5: a picture. And he gave me all these tips, like 501 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 5: you you look at what the background is, not just 502 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 5: the people who are in the picture. He's like, so 503 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 5: we want to have the background be this beautiful mar 504 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 5: A Lago estate, you know, with the grass, the green 505 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 5: grass below us whatever. And then he was teaching me 506 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 5: things like to turn to the side and put my 507 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 5: hand on my hip and like put. 508 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: My chin out, and so we take the picture. On 509 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: he says, you can. 510 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 5: Trust me, my wife's a supermodel. I was like, I 511 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 5: am aware that your wife is a supermodel. Yes, And 512 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 5: so his assistant shows him the picture, and he kind 513 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 5: of pauses and he says, well, there you go when 514 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 5: it was better. You know what, I was thinking, How 515 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 5: am I my age and none of my female friends 516 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 5: ever taught me how to take a picture, and the 517 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 5: former president of the United States is teaching me, like 518 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 5: really excellent tips on taking pictures. Like it just was 519 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 5: one of those like absurd moments, but was really funny. 520 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 5: And so now I'm still not great at taking pictures. 521 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 5: But every time I, you know, when someone does it, 522 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 5: I'm like, okay, wait, hold on, what did what did? 523 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: Okay? 524 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 3: Then I do you think interviewing different people like that 525 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 3: would be maybe the part you like the best about 526 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: your job? Or I guess what would be the favorite 527 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 3: part about it? 528 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: I don't know. 529 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 5: I will say so of all the people I've loved 530 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 5: interviewing presidents, I've had a few former presidents or current 531 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 5: or former presidents. 532 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: Senators. 533 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 5: I enjoy senators, but I really enjoy interviewing judges justices. 534 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 5: I think because they don't talk that much to the media, 535 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 5: they are very logical in their thinking. 536 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: It's just interesting. 537 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 5: That's the thing I've enjoyed most is covering federal judges 538 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 5: or other judges and just getting a better understanding of 539 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 5: their thinking. I think because I'm personally quite interested in 540 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 5: the law. 541 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: So yeah, when I first met you last spring, it 542 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 3: came to my advanced writing class, and the person I 543 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 3: look is like, does she have a wedding ring? 544 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 4: Because I'm interested in knowing. 545 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: How do you balance kind of like having a family 546 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: and a high profile journalism career poorly? 547 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 5: No, So my husband is the main person who got 548 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 5: me into journalism. We were friends at the time that 549 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 5: I followed him into journalism and taught me everything. 550 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: I know. 551 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 5: He's with me on everything, and so even to the 552 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 5: extent that I would love to not be working so much, 553 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 5: and he's always the one encouraging me to get out 554 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 5: there and do things. Having someone who's fully supportive and 555 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 5: a partner is really key having a clear understanding of 556 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 5: what's most important. So we both work from home, so 557 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 5: we're both very involved in our children's lives. We're very 558 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 5: involved in our church, and so it's just like natural 559 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 5: balance provided by just having people who love you and 560 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 5: are with you no matter what's going on politically. I mean, 561 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 5: even the fact that there are people I go to 562 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 5: church with who are wildly different political viewpoints, and we 563 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 5: all love each other, and we all work together, and 564 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 5: we're you know, doing the Octoberfest together or in the 565 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 5: church choir together, and it just reminds you of what's 566 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 5: actually important versus what people in DC think is important. 567 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 3: And this kind of builds off of that in a way. 568 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 3: Do you have advice for young people who are looking 569 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 3: to go into a career in journalism. 570 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a broad question. I don't know. 571 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: Can you narrow it down a little? 572 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 4: Yeah? 573 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 3: Sure, Okay, I'm going to be graduating. I'm twenty one 574 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 3: years old, and I ultimately would like to be in DC, 575 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: and I want to be a journalist coming out of Hillsdale. 576 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: What would be I guess a main takeaway for me 577 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 3: as I'm graduating and going out into that world. 578 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 579 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 5: So I think it's really weird because when I started 580 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 5: in journalism, it was a completely different path you had. 581 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it was kind of standard. 582 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 5: You start out at a local paper, like even if 583 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 5: you wanted to do TV journalism, to start at a 584 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 5: local TV outlet, and then you slowly worked your way 585 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 5: up into the bigger markets or you figured out what 586 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 5: your beat was going to be, and then you just 587 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 5: like drilled into that. You know, if you knew you 588 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 5: wanted to be a tech reporter for the rest of 589 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 5: your life, you could just kind of work. 590 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: Your way up that way. 591 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 5: And in the last twenty years, everything's kind of fallen apart. 592 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 5: There aren't many local media outlets, so there aren't like 593 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 5: ways to start local and then get bigger. I mean 594 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 5: you can still, but it's just so many fewer opportunities 595 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 5: on that front, but then so many more opportunities in 596 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 5: DC and New York. 597 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: With outlets that have particular perspectives. 598 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 5: And so I think just kind of accepting the reality 599 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 5: that's that's where we are now, Like there's no mainstream 600 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 5: journalism anymore. That's just gone. It's all left or right, 601 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 5: and that's just the fact. And some people like to 602 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 5: claim that they're mainstream, they're not. 603 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: They're left. 604 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 5: And just understanding like what it would mean if you 605 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 5: were to go into a left media outlet and what 606 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 5: it would be like or to go into a right 607 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 5: media outlet. And so I think that's one thing, just 608 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 5: understanding the reality of the of the environment. And then 609 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 5: the other thing I think is just like experiences everything 610 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 5: and don't worry about making a huge splash right away 611 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 5: until you really know have like mastered the writing or 612 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 5: mastered being on TV, and then you can kind of 613 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 5: like get a feel for everything and then go for 614 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 5: a big I mean, everyone's different. 615 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: Some people can make a splash right away. 616 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 5: But I think that I've seen a lot of people 617 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 5: really want to share their opinions very quickly out of college. 618 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 5: And you know, if you're a Hillsdale educated person, you 619 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: have well formed opinions. 620 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 1: I get it. 621 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 5: But there's something to be said for just humbling yourself 622 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 5: to the idea that other people might have something to 623 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 5: teach you for the next several years, and just learning 624 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 5: the craft, learning the trade, and then going for it. 625 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 3: So yesterday you emailed me and we were kind of 626 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: you're asking me if we were preparing for this, I guess, 627 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 3: And I asked you what you were wearing. You suggested 628 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: to me. I never answered, like a softball T shirt, 629 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: that we should wear softball's T shirts. I got you 630 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: a softball shirt. Oh, since I am on the softball team, 631 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 3: so I do this is like awesome. 632 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 4: If you've come back on campus. 633 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, we should just put them on right now, right. 634 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 4: I love it. 635 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: Great. 636 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 3: I did want to give you that, so use your sauce. 637 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 3: All team, this is my softball team. We actually I 638 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: had to tell access tomorrow while we're doing this today. 639 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: Well, thanks for making time. I really appreciate it. This 640 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 4: is awesome. 641 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: It's wonderful to get to hang out with you. 642 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 3: I have two requests. Yes, would you mind signing my 643 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: rigged book? And then, of course, also could we get 644 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: a photo. That's like, that's more of my parents' requests. 645 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: They were like, can you. 646 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: Oh, that's cool that you don't want to photo with me? 647 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 4: But no, I do like. 648 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast, please 649 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a 650 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest 651 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated 652 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: directly to the show at our email address, Michael at 653 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our 654 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: website Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and 655 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: Podcast is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding, 656 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: executive producer isch Had Nakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director. 657 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery, and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLean. 658 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our 659 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated 660 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not, 661 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the 662 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 2: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple 663 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally, 664 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp 665 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and 666 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide freecounciling.