WEBVTT - Michael McCarty 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:12.760 Welcome, welcome, welcome back mob left, that's FOD. My guest 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.760 today is a longtime friend Michael McCartin, who was the 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:21.840 chief Membership and Business Development officer her SO Camp. Michael, 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:24.919 how are you okay? So explain what's so canny is? 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.000 So can is simplistically the Canadian version of ask CAPPA 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.080 and bm I. So it's the performing rights organization in Canada. Uh, 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.760 it's also now involved in mechanical rights. But that's it's 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.960 it's origin. And it was formed from the merger of 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.080 KAPPAC and pro can which predecessors and they were literally 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.880 asked Captain B and my Canada. Okay, a little bit slower. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.800 So the acronym stands for I'm not even sure, to 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.120 be honest with you, it isn't a society, a society 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.319 of Canadian authors, uh, composers and music publishers, but it's 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.000 not really an acronymicist. Okay. So the word two yeah, 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.200 and how well, how long ago do they merge into one? 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.880 Something like that? And we'll caused that. Well, I think 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.280 it's just a realization that, um, it was inefficient to 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.840 have two different organizations. You know, the US is an 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.280 anomaly in the world. Right there there aren't many countries 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:16.840 in the world that have more than one p R. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.720 Oh so, uh it was inefficient and uh so I 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.120 mean needed scale and uh and get rid of duplication 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.160 of efforts. So they emerged and it's been a very 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.039 successful thing. Okay, So, since we're talking about a worldwide 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.039 business today, can you think of any other country that 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.680 has more than one performing rights organizations? I think Brazil 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:39.280 uh legendarily has about ten. Oh really, of course the 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.480 US now has four or five exactly we'll get into that. Okay, 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.280 what is the genesis of performing rights organizations? Were they 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.760 in lockstep with the developments in the US because the 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.960 law is not identical, but what is the development? Well, really, 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.480 another another substitute term was collective right. So really they've 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.960 started as collectives by uh for the rights owners typically 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.720 writers and publishers, and uh they knew that they needed 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.359 to aggregate their rights together to blanket licensed radio and 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.639 and other licensees. So it's really, you know, uh, parallel 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.440 to the development of radio and technology that they started. Okay, Now, 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.440 the big difference between the US and the rest of 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.760 the country is neighboring rights. Correct, Can you explain that 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.880 from my audience. Neighboring rights really is the existence of 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.960 the performing right in the master recording. So that means 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.360 when the master recording, when the recording is aired, broadcast, stream, whatever, 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.840 it earns royalties too because it's got its own copyright. UM. Neighboring. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.639 The nuances of why it's called neighboring rights, it's a 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.360 European term, but we don't have to get into but 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.440 that's basically what it is. We'll get into it if 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.119 you know it well. I don't know it that well. 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.360 So you stepped in the hole. Let's if you can 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.800 climb out of it. So basically the philosophy is the 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.799 prime right is the copyright of the song of the composition. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.440 Uh and uh, and neighboring neighboring right was refers to 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.440 sort of a secondary right or it's it's it's a 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.799 neighbor of it. I did not know that. I thought 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.280 it was neighboring right because the country to country they 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.200 were neighbors. I don't think so. Okay. So what we're 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:18.840 basically saying is when the record is played, a payment 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.239 goes to the copyright holder of the record right, and 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.080 it's so can you collect that correct. We we collected 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.520 for the composition, not the not the recording recording, Uh, 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.679 the sound exchange in the US, right, Uh, Canada RESOUND 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.800 which is a collection of other organizations and PPL in 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.560 the UK, etcetera. And um. Uh so it's all it's 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.160 it's it's a paralleled system that's very similar to the 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.640 to the copy I thought that in some countries they 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.440 were unified, but they they may be, but not. Okay, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.520 So actually sorry, we just formed a joint venture with 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:59.680 RESOUND to jointly licensed. Uh. What we call general licensing, 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.240 um is the bars, restaurants, hotels, that kind of thing. Um. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.080 So that's called in tandem. And so now you in 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.720 Canada you get one license if you own one of 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.120 those establishments, instead of having two parties coming at you. Okay, 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.880 let's assume I'm paying. How do you guys with up 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.960 the money? Uh, it's in relation to what what the 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:23.520 license fees or the tariffs are. Okay. Now this is 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.200 all controlled by the government in Canada. The government. Uh well, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.000 the government plays a serious role obviously creating the Copyright 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.480 Act in the first place. Um. Canada has the Copyright Board, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.840 which is a quasi judicial body that regulates copyright realty 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.839 rates and secondary terms. Um. It used to be that 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.280 all of our license fees were based on those those 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.760 we call them tariffs. It's you know, it's a court case. 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.400 You file it and you have hearings and evidence, et cetera. 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.880 But since the digital age particularly, we've tried to um 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.560 negotiate as many licenses license deals as we possibly can, 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.360 rather go to the court of the rateboard, the copyright board, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.320 because it's very long, time consuming, very expensive for everybody. Okay, 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.200 but are there terrorists that are established in case you 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.760 can't make a deal. Okay, we're there terrorists established for 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:14.000 streaming music services. There are tariffs, yeah, um, but again, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.080 virtually all of our licensee arrangements are are negotiated and 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.960 negotiated with the tariff in mind. But there's a lot 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.159 of elements that the tariff doesn't talk about, which which 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.160 are important to us, are important to the licensees. So 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.039 there's incentive to uh to uh to negotiate it. Not 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.200 the least of which is it sometimes takes so long 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:37.600 to get a tariff ruled on that the technology is 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.240 dead by the time the tariff is settled. So okay, 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:45.240 But just so I understand, they do establish standards. It's 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.960 just if you want to argue with those standards, you 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.240 would then go to court. Yeah, and increasingly it used 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:51.560 to be that we would go to go to the 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.880 Copyright Board file for a tariff, they would make a 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.400 decision and that would be it. Then then the next 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.680 phase was we have had existing tariffs, we'd say to 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.200 the parts, hey, let's instead of US file a revised 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:03.960 tariff or a new tariff, why don't we sit down 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.560 and negotiate it. And then most lately a lot of 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.240 times we don't even go to the board initially. We 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.560 just start the negotiations. The boards always a fallback if 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.000 we don't like the way the negotiations are going. Okay, 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.880 why don't you explain, because you're the expert, why there's 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:22.520 so many performing rights organizations in the United States? Well, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:24.599 I think you need somebody who knows more about the 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.000 US environment than me. But my understanding is, um, it 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.520 all started when ASCAP was declared UH a monopoly and 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.240 anti trust in the was authorities, I guess, and you 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.800 know my understanding of that is, um, basically, they went 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.719 on strike. They didn't like the rates at radio. They 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.560 pull the licenses. Radio didn't have the right to play 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.960 music anymore. So, uh, they push some buttons in the government. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.560 The government declared them in the monopoly and put them 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:56.120 on antitrust consent decree, and radio said, um, never again 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.600 will we rely on one source of repertoire, and so 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.599 they start a B M I okay, But recently this 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.279 has been a growing area. We have global we have 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.920 se sack Okay, what do you think accounts for let's 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.160 say I'm an act okay, other than as off company 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:18.080 which will say for a second, which only has a 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.800 lead acts signed to it, But to go to ce 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.720 SAC or another p r O, what do you think 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:29.040 the motivation would be? Well, look, the the downside of 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.840 having so many pierros in the US is that, um uh, 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:33.760 you know, there's so there's it's it's kind of a 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.200 dog's breakfast in some ways, and there's and there's a 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.840 it's a complexity and a lot of duplication, et cetera. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.640 The upside is this competition. And of course, you know 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.760 America is the land of competition. So if you look 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.120 at it as a glass half full, um, it gives 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.800 writers there's competition for writer's business and each one of 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.440 the p r os has their different pitch as to 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.760 why they think they're the best, and they make the 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.760 pitch and sometimes it's really a lot of times it's relationships. Sometimes, 0:07:57.920 --> 0:07:59.960 Uh you know, there's a business side of the pitch. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.760 Um it's uh, you know, I don't I just want 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.360 to speak for them, so I don't want to give 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.200 their individual pitches. But they've all got compelling pitches, and 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.960 they've all got great organizations and great people. Okay, would 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.080 be part of the pitch being that I can collect 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.120 better than the other people. You know, I've I've seen 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.400 every every element played, you know. I mean, I think 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.600 they all believe that they're they're the best collectors. They're 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.440 all believed that they do at the cleanest, the most 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.880 thorough they all believe that they have the best staff. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.400 It can help your career. Um, and um, you know 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.319 that's the that's the pitch. And and they're they're great organizations. 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.080 I mean you just think how how big they are 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.000 and how much money goes through them. Uh, they're you know, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.960 basically the biggest piros in the world. And uh, we 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.400 have great relationship with them all. Or what are the 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.280 main things that I was brought into so CAN. To 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.480 do is to um reverse the situation where over the 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.120 years are some of our members had a lot of 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.240 a lot of our high earning members had drifted away 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.600 and become members of ASKAP and b M I more 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.800 than any of them. And uh, you know, we set 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:03.920 out to reverse that because we want Canadians to be 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.640 members of so CAN. Uh. The reason I came to 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.000 so CAN was I thought it was a great opportunity 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.320 to be one of the two or three people with 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.400 my hand on the rudder of an organization. I thought 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.800 it was extremely important to the ecosystem in Canada, and um, 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.280 you know, I could see where the future was going, 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.000 and I wanted to try and help make sure that 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.800 the institutions thrived and survived. And uh one of the 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.720 main ways to do that was to get our members 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.120 back and make sure that new new Canadian artists and 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.559 writers were we're members of so CAN and wanted to 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.040 join so CAN. And it's done a pretty good job 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.640 so far, because you know, as you know, Canada's killing 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.520 it in music. Um To Toronto arguably is the hottest 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.000 music city in the world, and we have almost every 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.240 single person coming out of Canada. Now, okay, so what's 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.520 your pitch. Our pitch is um, just what we said earlier, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.840 which is, I think we think we're great collectors. We 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.080 think we have um, great opportunities when you're at least 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.520 started your career to help you connect the dots and 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.719 help connect you into the ecosystem. And we're complimentary to 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.679 publishers and labels and managers and agents. Okay, let's slow down. 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.520 Let's let's just take the top level. I'm a big act, 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.400 I'm Canadian act. I'm with b M I R as GAP. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.920 What's your pitch to them? Uh? What I just said, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.520 plus um, you make more money with us, all else 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.480 being equal, because we don't charge um for foreign income. 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.920 So are all the money coming from outside of Canada? 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.760 We don't commission Uh and okay, so b am I 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.120 and ask they all commission that? Yeah, okay, And well 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.120 how can SO can't get away without commissioning it. It's 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.360 just a decision that they made quite a while ago 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.960 as an attempt to try and convince people not to leave. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.040 And they said, you know, look at stay here and 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.600 we won't commission the money. So just the cost of 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.040 it is embedded in the costs of running, so can 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.480 we're one of the most efficient p r os in 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.000 the world and um, it's it's it's a lot less 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.319 costly to administer the foreign royalties and it is the 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.800 domestic one. So um and that is because well because um, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.560 uh the foreign p r O of all, we have 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.760 already done a lot of the work matching the you know, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:05.959 the repertoire and so that you know, we get statements 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.520 from them and it's it's easier to go through those 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.080 than to do all the original matching ourself. I mean, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.680 don't forget. I mean these days, an organization like ours 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.120 is we're tracking like two million performances a day now, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.760 so it's pretty it's pretty daunting. And so we think 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.959 that we're one of the most advanced in the world. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.240 And in doing all that and that, um, we have 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.000 high touch service. We have a whole team of people 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.040 who are assigned to UH two members and they have 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.800 a personal relationship with them. When we hear quite often 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.920 that people really appreciate that. And even if you're a 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.199 big star, your business manager really appreciates it. Okay, So 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.719 let's say you're collecting in Canada. People always say this, 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.800 Oh my record was played whatever, I didn't get paid? 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.280 How much is it digitized and accurate to what actually 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.240 is being played? So I tell you a funny story. Um, 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.480 I was on the board of so CAN for twenties. Wait, 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.520 so canon is own by who? It's a it's a 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.840 it's a for profit collective owned by its members, and 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.360 members are writers and publishers. Even though it's not for profit, 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.439 we we try and adopt a for profit mentality in 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.240 terms of, you know, not being a stay bureaucracy and 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.480 feeling like we have competition, et cetera. But so for 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.920 when when when BDS came along? A number of bds 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.520 is a service from Nielsen that listens to radio stations. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.239 The computers listen to radio stations that identify the recordings 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.240 audio finger putting lections, AM and UM. So when that 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.040 first came along, a number of number of from the 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.520 board said, hey, so CAN should adopt this because you know, 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.000 one of the main complaints you used to hear in 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.120 the from about PRS back then wherever whatever country or 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.760 that with everybody uses a survey system to figure out 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.319 what's being played in radio and how could that possibly 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.719 be accurate? So? Um, several years of discussion went on, 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.960 and investigations and and finally and there was nothing. There 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.960 was no obvious argument why we should do it because 0:12:57.960 --> 0:12:59.559 we're gonna we're gonna make any more money. It wasn't 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.000 gonna change the license fees coming from radio. It's gonna 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.200 cost a lot more money than the survey. It's going 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.800 to create a lot more data to handle. And the 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.880 only question was whether it was more accurate or not. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.839 And intuitively we all fet I thought it has to 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.280 be more accurate. So, um, we hired somebody to study 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.040 our survey. And this is back in the Yeah, yeah, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.079 hired somebody to study the survey, and um, they said 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.920 your survey is the most accurate in the world amongst 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.120 p r o s and that it's accurate within someone 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.600 you know that the statistics of it, and um, and 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.640 uh so the management is so kind at the time 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.959 said see, there's no reason to to the ghost. So 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.400 but a number of us, sort of the kind of 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.320 younger ones, said, you know what, this is the digital era. 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.280 The reason why we have to do it is because 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.840 it's stupid not to do it. And that's we said, Okay, 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.040 that's gonna think on BDS. And then for a year, 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.320 they ran BDS in parallel to the old survey, and 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.840 the number one thing they learned by doing that was 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:58.400 that the survey was incredibly accurate. Um now does it 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.120 miss onesies and twosies wants? Well, yeah, the surveys do. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.959 So the there is there's no question that the that 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.840 UM BDS and and that kind of type of audio 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.400 fingerprint technology and digital monitoring is more accurate. Um. But 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.520 it's really the long, super long tail. Okay, but it's 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.640 cheaper to do and and it also need the startup 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.320 costs were heavier. But actually to do it, it's yeah. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.000 And the number one thing that it did for so 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.520 CAN was they had to think about how to handle 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.480 the orders of magnitude greater amounts of data. So they 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:36.320 set up processes and technology to do that. That when 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.200 the digital era came along and you look around the 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.760 corner and oh my god, there's a tsunami of data coming. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.440 So can hat was already set up to handle it, 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.560 so unlike some of its peers around the world, So 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.600 that that was really the number one benefit of doing 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:54.160 that was unintentionally preparing let's go a little bit slower. 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.800 I'm a person, I have a song is played on radio? 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.760 Once is that tracked A I get to get paid? 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.400 It's uh yeah, it's track now get paid and I 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.240 will get paid, although one one place won't. We probably 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.080 isn't even a penny. Well on radio, no, it's approximately 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.760 a dollar. Let's let's let's say it's a dollar. Wait, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:18.880 one play is a dollar on radio? Yeah, it's really yeah, yeah, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.600 it's probably less than like seventy eight cents or something 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.600 like that, but it's yeah, okay. How do you then 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:31.160 extrapolate or do in terms of as you say, restaurants, cafes, etcetera. Yeah, 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.840 well those are those are harder, so you know, um 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.280 various um. That goes back to the sort of survey mentality, right, 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.160 so it's rough justice, it's approximations, and we we try 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.320 and figure out um uh well actually these days, some 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.440 of the music services that serve those places, they have 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.640 the data. Um, they know what's being performed, so we 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.440 get that data. In the cases where we don't have 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.480 the data, we try and figure out, Okay, this money 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.840 that we collect from those licensees has to be paid 0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.880 out as fairly as possible, as accurately as possible. We 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.000 have no data, so let's um, what data can we get. 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.520 We can figure out, well, you know, most of them 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.040 play popular music, so we'll take that music without their 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.520 license fees and we'll put them in the popular music 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.720 pools so that people who have music that's likely being 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:20.120 paid played get paid. But increasingly we're doing things like 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:24.360 um experimenting with putting uh you know Shazam BDS type 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.120 listening posts into into clubs. Uh. The d M world 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.200 and the DJ world are very concerned about accuracy, and 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.400 so we're working with them. We have what we uh 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.320 working with Pioneer, where their further Cubo service where they 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.720 have a they can produce a data stream of the 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.160 titles that would be that the DJ's playing. So Pioneer, 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.680 what was pioneers motivation? UM? I think they created a 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.320 thing called Cubo. I believe it was a social media platform, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880 and they wanted to know what was being played, say 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.160 in Lisbon, so that people dancing in London could see 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.040 on their phone what their friends were dancing to and 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.040 maybe requested that kind of thing. So they needed that 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.840 data stream. So we're really working really really hard to 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:05.720 try and make sure that there's data every single place 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.760 music is used we have a lot of big plans 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.119 in live because one of our biggest problems in the 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.800 same as all the pr os, is getting accurate set 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.360 lists from concerts, getting the artists to to to get 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.720 them to us. Some places in Europe the promoter is 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.119 required by law to produce the set list or not 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.119 in North America, so we have to figure out how 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.919 to get that set list. So, um, we're we have 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.919 a were first pr O in the world to have 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.040 a PI platform. So API is Application programming interface, so 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.639 it's basically how one platform talks to another and computers 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.159 talk and um. So we have a PI s basically 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.680 for every capability of our platform, including sending us your 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.119 concert stuff. So there's a We built up the APIs 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.120 and thinking that would be a third party marketplace would 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.520 spring up, that people would have services that they need 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:56.959 to connect with our platform. And sure enough a company 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:01.119 in Calgary came along called Mazuka and they what they 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.080 do is they connect all the parties in the live 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:08.800 music ecosystem managers uh to agents, UM, venues, promoters, et cetera. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.919 And they share digital assets about a tour, videos, posters, 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.159 uh whatever, the information on the tour and one of 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.840 the byproducts, of course, is everything we need to know 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.280 to pay a concert, except for the set list. So 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.439 they use our A p I s so that you 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.760 can using their at Mazooka app. You're an artist or manager, whatever, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:28.920 you can dial up your catalog out of our of 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.840 our database, create a set list and push a button 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.240 and send all the concert information to us, including the 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.040 set list. And that's really revolutionizing. How how we deal 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:43.400 with the live concerts and successful okay, and venue? Well, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.320 how do they How is that fee established percentage? Well, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.280 unconscious percentage of the box office? Box office is three 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.720 in Canada. It's a lot harder than that in some 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.560 of European territories and a lot lower than that in 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.880 the US. And right, so it's not a flat fee 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:02.080 in the US. Well, you know, of course, in our world, 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.160 as you start to peel back layers, it gets more 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.600 and more complex. And part of the reason for that 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.479 is that, especially in the Copyright Board era, every single 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.160 licensee thought that they're different and the rules shouldn't apply 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:15.960 to them. So they would go to the copyright Board, 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.440 and the Copyright Board said, okay, we'll make an exception 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.399 for you, and and then it just becomes very complex, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.520 but very simplistically, if you have a hard ticket, it's 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.240 three percent of the box office. Okay, let's assume I 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:32.280 sell my catalog like Mark is is buying up catalogs. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.760 How does that affect my soul? Can I saw Mark 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.240 last night? Actually? By the way, UM, it doesn't affect 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.240 it at all. We're do we pay whoever the owner 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.680 and uh an and or administrator is so um uh 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.120 if catalog changes hands, we just take the hose out 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.119 of one plug and put into another. So a writer 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.639 can sell hes rights. Uh, great question. So can is 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.800 historically um? Uh not allowed that? In the last few 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:03.720 year years, Um, we've liberalized that a lot because realized 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.120 that it's a different world now. Um, there's more information 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.360 that people have. It was sort of to protect writers from, 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.200 you know, bad deals. I guess that would be the 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:11.960 mentality that it was, And now I think it's a 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.360 much more sophisticated world. There's more information out there, there's 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.520 more advice you can get, there are more people wanting 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.520 to buy writers share, and so we have situations where 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.160 where we allow it some Every bureau around the world 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.640 has kind of a different mixture of of rules around that. 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.360 Let's go back to an earlier comment, why is Toronto 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:34.760 such an epicenter of music creativity? Great question. Um, Canada 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.080 has always produced a lot of talent. Um, as you know. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.320 And and uh, I think that the sort of perfect 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.159 storm that's happening in Toronto right now is a is 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:48.160 a functional a lot of things. I think that, UM, 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.800 the the support for Canadian culture that the government introduced 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.600 the number of years ago. In fact, this is the 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.240 fiftieth anniversary of the Canadian Content Regulations on radio um 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:03.000 profound effect on the ecosie them uh and uh, nowadays 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.040 we've got um uh if you look at the people 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:07.960 from Toronto are kind of killing it. So we've got Drake, 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.280 the Weekend, Lessia, karash On, Mendez, et cetera. Um, those 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.960 are the above the waterline. Part of the iceberg below 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.359 the waterline is actually to me a bigger story, and 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:19.520 that is all the producers, beat makers, co writers that 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.240 work with them, Like we have eighty members in the 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.399 greater Toronto area that are co writers and Drake and 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.359 Weekend Records not including Drake in the Weekend. And um 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.040 uh the reasons for that are, um, if you look 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.560 at all these people killing it. There's there's a number 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.800 of things that are have in common. One, they're disproportionately multicultural. 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.600 They are disproportionately immigrants or first generation children of immigrants. 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:47.199 It's a specifically in Canada, Toronto, Toronto. Yeah, uh, this 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.439 is well, as you know, Canada is a very multicultural 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.080 country exactly, but the real big clusters of that are 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.080 Toronto and Vancouver. Right, Well, don't I I had a 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.119 cab driver once in Toronto said there are more more ethnicities, 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.760 more cultures represented in Toronto than any other city in 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.399 the world. Yeah. I think there's like a hundred and 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:06.600 three languages or something. And and so these kids, Um uh, 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.320 so there's that. There's that. Um like, look the Weekend 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.000 for instance, a great example. He's an Ethiopian Canadian. He's 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.240 born in Canada as a mother, wasn't He's managed by 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.880 a Lebanese Canadian born in Lebanon and an Iranian Canadian 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.080 born in Iran. And uh, there's no better example in that. 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.000 Um we did, uh my my head of a and R. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.160 Rodney Murphy and i Ax years ago did a made 0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:31.440 a word cloud of the artists were talking about and 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.840 the beatmaker, co writer, producers and you put it up 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:38.720 in the screen, and um, it's remarkable how multicultural it is. 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.960 It's just it's really the okay, it is multicultural. Why 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:46.720 does the multiculturalism uh in gender's success. Um well, I 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:49.359 think that all the usual reasons why immigrant communities, you know, 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:51.280 have the drive, et cetera. But I think in this 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:53.560 case also part of it. One of the reasons for 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:55.960 the direction of the music, which is a big part 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:57.920 of why it's so successful, the direction being a course 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.480 hip hop, pop and and related music is because these 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.000 kids they grew up um uh, they want to reject 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.280 their parents music. Um. Their their their household is not 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.400 connected to the historic thread of Canadian culture, so rock 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.800 folk whatever that they're not getting that at home. Uh. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:16.639 And so they get exposed to the music of the 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.440 world coming through the major media through the and that's 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.440 generally American music, and it's generally hip hop. So they 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:24.520 kind of grew up in a in a more hip hop, 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:29.359 urban music centric environment than than the people they're if 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.560 their friends were and their neighbors were. Um. And then 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.880 another uh common thing is that they all make music 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.200 in the box. Of course that's on the in the computer. Um. 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.720 Live instruments play very little bit. Why is that, uh, 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.240 an advantage that Toronto has compared to the rest of 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:45.760 the world. I don't think it's advantage compared to the 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.520 rest of the world. But there's a huge beatmaking community 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.920 in Toronto, I think arguably I say two things that 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:54.600 are kind of bold that you know, maybe there's a 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.000 slightly exaggeration, but I don't really think so. UM Toronto 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.359 in many ways controls the sound of popular music in 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:01.120 the world today because of all the people were talking 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:05.560 about and success they have, UM and its indisputably the 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:08.159 beat making capital of the world, I think. And one 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:10.320 of the reasons for that is community. And it's a 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:13.800 community amongst the kids that are from these uh immigrant 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:15.800 families and they go and they live in those neighborhoods 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.720 or they live in the neighborhoods where um uh you know, 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:20.920 they're passing around mixed tapes and you know, in the 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:25.440 previous generation UM and UH. There's actually a guy named 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:29.480 rich Kid who UH was one of the early doctors 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:31.800 of what was then called Fruity Loops, which is a 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:35.120 digital platform to make music and now called fl Studios. 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:38.280 And and he was a real leader in getting other 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:40.919 kids on the platform and teaching them how to use it. 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.040 There's been a couple of organizations, one called the Beat 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.800 Toronto Beat Academy, which was started by two women who 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:51.240 saw these young kids around them that we're really talented, 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.200 but they might get lost in the street. And it's 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.600 kind of like, uh, people in the neighborhood starting a 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:57.399 soccer team or something. They started this thing called the 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:00.199 Toronto Beat Academy and they had beat battles. That was 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:02.960 the primary activity, and but it became a community where 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.680 they all shared. Probably ten years ago, so maybe maybe 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:09.720 a bit a bit longer and fat um uh. One 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:11.760 of the founders of it um was in the press 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:13.960 about three or four years ago, uh, and the headlines 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:16.200 were from homeless to Harvard. At one point she was 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:19.159 homeless and she ended up crowd funding herself to Harvard 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.320 and UM. So the way the Beat Academy got these 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.920 kids into international beat battles that gave them confidence um uh, 0:25:26.960 --> 0:25:30.520 you know, connecting to each other, some sort of structure. Uh. 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.080 They taught each other tricks, they won most of the 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:37.000 beat battles they entered. UM. And there was another organization 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:40.320 called the Remix Project, which is a project in the 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:43.760 Region Park area in Toronto, which is a challenging area 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:46.719 for kids, and it was intended to keep kids off 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:49.560 the street. And one of the programs there was was 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.680 a music program and actually some of Drake's people uh 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.240 early on started teaching there and so this became both 0:25:57.280 --> 0:26:01.680 these things became farm teams for beat makers and arguably 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.600 not to be clear, they get any government support. Um. 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.960 The Remix Project might have. Um, we've so candids helps 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:11.919 support these organizations with uh, you know, helping fly people 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.480 to beat battles and and that kind of thing, um, 0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:18.320 but largely no, but um, we'll give me back to 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:21.080 the government support connection a little while. Um. Anyway, So 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.240 that's one of the reasons why it's it's so huge. 0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:26.640 So we got you know, Frank Duke's boy one Noah 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:33.480 shebib uh murder beats uh. Dr McKinney, uh Wonda Girl, 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:35.640 one of the greatest female beat makers in the world. 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:39.240 She came from the Beat Academy. And you know it's 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.600 just because academy just like an after school program or 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:45.000 is it something where there's actually courses. No, No, it's 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:48.320 kind of like an informal after school program. Yeah. Yeah, 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:51.719 and uh. Um, so so you got that aspect. So 0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:56.160 that so you know, modern beat making became a really 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:58.280 big thing in Toronto. And of course you know, all 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:00.640 nothing happened if it wasn't for Drake, But I'll get 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:03.040 to that in a second. So you've got their disproportionately. 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:06.240 Immigrants are children. Immigrants make music in the box. Live 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:08.679 instruments play virtually no role in making the records, and 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:12.119 live they play like sort of a proper role. Um 0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:14.960 and uh. They all made it through the internet, either 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:17.360 they became popular with the public first and then got 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.080 signed to a deal or vice versa. But the Internet 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:23.359 played an incredibly important role. Don't forget the last two people. 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.320 In fact, I think the two biggest music success stories 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:32.200 on fine where Sean Mendez and Ruth b and um uh. 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.680 You know, so that's an indicator of how I don't 0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:36.600 know why it happened in Canada, not nowhere else, but 0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:40.840 it did. Um and uh. Then one of the most 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:43.160 important things is that this is one of the most 0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:45.240 mind blowing things to me and had a profound effect 0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:46.879 on how I think about the industry now. When I 0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:48.880 realized this about five years ago, I was talking again 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:51.800 to Rodney Murphy, my head of an arm. We're analyzing this, 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:54.840 this group of people, and then I realized not a 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:56.959 single one of them played a gig before they were famous. 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:01.200 And you know, especially a country like Canada where the 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.479 live you know, grinding out in the clubs and bars 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:07.560 was such a big part of of having a career 0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:11.280 and it just blew my mind when I realized that. 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:13.399 And when when when we first started saying this to 0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:15.640 people in the business, you have to wait, ripe the 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:19.080 brain matter off the wall and uh. But anyway, so 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:23.000 that those are all common characteristics, right, and um there 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:27.679 was a incredible um uh sort of boiling pot of 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.480 water of talent in hip hop and R and B 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:32.520 that was that was kind of bursting at the seams 0:28:32.520 --> 0:28:36.000 in Canada for probably ten years that couldn't get out 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.600 of the country because, um, the American industry would not 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:43.719 take that Canadian playing that music. Seriously. I spent a 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:46.000 lot of money in my publishing trying to develop that 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:49.520 scene and uh lost most of it. Um and had 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:51.800 a lot of support from my New York and l 0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:55.280 A compatriots, but they just didn't think that Canadian could 0:28:55.320 --> 0:28:57.200 ever do it. And then that manifests itself in a 0:28:57.240 --> 0:28:59.280 million million different ways. Either they said, well it's good, 0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:01.320 but it's Canadian, or it's not good, or but what 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:03.440 it really was. It's kind of like Nashville, you know that. Uh, 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:06.280 it's hard for nash people, Nashville people to imagine something 0:29:06.320 --> 0:29:10.040 from outside of Nashville working in Nashville. Um. And in 0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:12.160 spite this is in spite of the fact that you know, 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:14.040 the Brian Adams of the world and the guests who's 0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:15.800 the b t O s and the Rushes had broken 0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:20.240 through that barrier in rock music. But the barrier existed, 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:22.920 It really did. And then so somebody had to break 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.600 through in hip hop and R and B. So, um, 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:29.280 Drake existed. I think Drake exists because A he's make 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:32.160 a talented and incredibly smart guy, but b because of 0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:37.760 the TV show Degrassi. Uh and uh. That's a really 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:41.400 good example of the Canadian support system because there's Canaan 0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.080 content regulations in television as well. There's a grants just 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:48.120 explain with Canadian content in radio and television. You have 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:50.920 to play a minimum percentage of of your air time 0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:53.400 has to be Canadian content. Okay, let's just stop for 0:29:53.480 --> 0:30:03.080 one second. In the era of the internet. How important 0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:07.760 is that still on radio? Great question, because um, we're 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:11.160 that's okayn, We're really concerned about this because not so 0:30:11.240 --> 0:30:14.480 much about radio, because that's long settled in UM. But 0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:19.000 it really in many ways this regulation saved Canadian culture 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:23.800 because um, in the you know media eras in the fifties, fifties, 0:30:24.400 --> 0:30:29.160 early sixties, UM, Canadians were swamped with American media and 0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:32.120 it was very difficult for Canadian voice to be heard 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:34.360 unless you moved to United States and got a record 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:36.360 deal and became famous like a Gordon Lightfoot or nearly 0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:39.840 Young or something like that. And UM, so they created 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:43.880 the legislation and fact at that point, UM, Canada was 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.160 not a very confident country in terms of its own 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:52.920 identity and um uh, Canadian radio would not play you 0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:55.520 because you were Canadian. The guests Who was called the 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:57.520 Guests Who because they tried to put out an independent 0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:01.800 record and when the the independent label realized that if 0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:04.800 anybody guess their Canadian, they wouldn't play the record. So 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:07.640 they wrote guests Who questioned Mark on the label to 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:10.360 get the discocist the question to to guess it. Make 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:12.320 it turn into a contest and they thought that was 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:13.560 the name of the band, so they had to change 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:16.520 their name of the guest suit. That's how bad it was. Um. 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:19.520 And so uh, you know, you fast forward to now 0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:22.760 and and we have all this incredibly healthy ecosystem, very 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.240 much partly because of that Canaan content regulations. UM. But 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.560 um it's we think there's a real discover ability problem 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:31.760 in the digital area. So I'll get to that, back 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:33.360 that in the second. But with Degrassi, so there was 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:37.160 conconading content regulations on television as let's talk about the 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:41.040 development of Degrassi and how that happened with the government, etcetera. Yeah, 0:31:41.400 --> 0:31:44.760 So um it was created by um uh Lenna Skis 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:46.880 Skyler and her husband Steven Stone, who was a well 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.600 known music attorney, and um, they wanted to create a 0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:56.760 television show that um was uh positive role uh for 0:31:56.920 --> 0:32:00.520 kids and not the usual entertainment bs and talked about 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:02.760 real issues the kids really wanted to know about and 0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:05.040 talked about at school and and and counter to school. 0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:09.440 So um, there's a very healthy grant system to make 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:12.800 television programs in Canada. So they got some grants and 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:16.240 they just just just because I live in the US, obviously, 0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:19.240 you have these grant systems, you're supported by the government. 0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:23.040 How does the average Canadian feel about paying taxes to 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.840 support that? Um, I don't see or hear anybody's talking 0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:29.920 about that. I mean, certainly, when when the legislation first 0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:32.600 came in, the content legislation first came in, and then 0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.920 when the grant systems propped up popped up shortly after that, 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:37.760 there was a lot of people saying that. But they 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:40.400 take it for granted now that that that's what the 0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:42.640 system is. And and it's been a very just because 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:45.000 we live in the United States, this is being need about. 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:47.640 What is the top tax rate in Canada right now? 0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:50.120 Income tax? Well, I'm not an accountant, but it's more 0:32:50.120 --> 0:32:54.920 than it is more than. And also although Trudeau was 0:32:55.040 --> 0:33:00.320 just re elected, Uh, there is some conservative pushback and Canada, 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:03.080 what do you think that temperature of the country is 0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:07.520 right now? Well, you know, we obviously see what goes 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:12.400 on in US and UK, etcetera. And um, there's Uh, 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.200 there was a sort of a more conservative movement, as 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:17.760 you said, but and it resulted in in Justin Trudeau 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:21.840 having minority government. Um, so they didn't they didn't. It 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:24.560 wasn't a change in government, So you're probably with every 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.360 minority government, you're gonna see probably more governing from the middle. 0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:30.160 So there probably will be a swing towards more towards 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:32.000 the middle of Canada. But don't forget the left right 0:33:32.040 --> 0:33:35.200 in middle in Canada totally different than the US. Um. 0:33:35.320 --> 0:33:38.200 The US generally is I think a much more conservative 0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:40.800 country and and uh um, you know, some of our 0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:45.640 more left winging went left wing. Uh political leaders over 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:48.239 the generations might have been considered communists if they were 0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:50.320 in the United States, and some of the more right 0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:53.440 wing people would have considered being considered middle of the road, 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:57.320 you know. Um, But that's that's just a general just 0:33:57.320 --> 0:33:59.720 just before we get back to the grassy. The fact 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:03.880 that Canada is such a cultural impact around the world, 0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:09.879 has that ultimately affected the feeling that, uh or not 0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:14.360 that Canada is a second class environment? Right? So good question, 0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:17.280 So I can I can trace it certainly in my life. Um. 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:20.560 I traced the rise of of positive self identity and 0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:24.480 Canadians and national pride with the after Canaan content regulations 0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:27.200 came in. Before that, there was very few if no, 0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:30.400 there wasn't no music industry and there were very few 0:34:31.000 --> 0:34:33.680 artists that you could look up to as Canadians. There 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:36.960 were role models or that talked about Canadian things or whatever. 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:39.239 And again the ones that you you were aware of 0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:41.880 moved to the US and and came through the U 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:45.560 S system. And um, the existence of groups like the 0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:49.960 Tragically Hip, I think are is in incredible success story. 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:52.400 Even though they never really had a lot of success 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:55.839 outside of Canada, this level of success that had had 0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:59.440 inside the country was absolutely unprecedented. And really it doesn't 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:02.520 matter that they weren't that successful anywhere else, because um, 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:04.719 I don't want to underplay the success they did have, 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:08.000 but they weren't as nearly as anywhere else. And that's 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.400 that's an amazing thing because look at any other healthy 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.000 music ecosystem around the world, like Britain. We always talked 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:15.200 about all these great stars coming out of Britain, all 0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:17.160 the great music. Well if you actually live there for 0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:18.959 a little while to see all the stuff that doesn't 0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:23.520 get out right, and like the madness the syndrome right 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:26.640 from you know, decades ago, and you talk to Britain, 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:28.359 what do you mean you've never heard of madness? You know? 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:30.960 So same thing. And so I think that the existence 0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:34.719 of that kind of thing is as an indication of 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:38.160 a healthy music ecosystem, and Canada nerve used to have that. Okay, 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:41.040 one more thing used to be if someone made it. 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.400 You mentioned you know Neil Young, There's Joni Mitchell, Bryan Adams. 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:47.440 They would basically base themselves in the United States. Do 0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:50.719 you think that's changing? Yeah, although I think you go, 0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:53.279 you go, rid of your business needs you to go. Um. 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:55.439 And so you look at Drake. You know, he's got 0:35:55.440 --> 0:35:58.400 homes here, He's got homes you know, in in Toronto 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.360 still and a lot of them, you know, it's the 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:04.080 Canada is their emotional home now more than it ever 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:06.719 was before. And you look at Drake, how proud he 0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:10.400 is a Toronto and he's been multibillion dollars worth of 0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:15.160 ambassador branding for the for the city. Um. And that 0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:16.799 never used to happen before either, you know, I mean 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:20.920 people were before Canadian content sometimes in some way Canadians 0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.239 were kind of embarrassed to be Canadians. And then the 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.240 first wave was they weren't embarrassed anymore. But they're quietly proud, 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:29.360 and now they're very loudly proud. And that's been an 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:34.200 incredible development. And and it's absolutely guarantee you very much 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:37.960 driven by by Canadian artists emerging. Okay, so go back 0:36:37.960 --> 0:36:42.040 to the Grass. So the Grassy starts up, Drake's on it. 0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:44.560 Just to be clear, how many years is the Grassy run? Oh, 0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:47.680 I don't know, it's got to be fifteen. Anyway, Drake 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:50.279 wasn't on from the beginning. I'm not sure. I don't. 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:53.279 I don't think he was whatever. But um, so fast 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:55.760 forward to he leaves the show. It's my it's early, myself, 0:36:55.920 --> 0:36:58.520 let's stop it because it's important. It's like Trump. The 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:02.240 Grassy was not only popular in Canada, was distributed certainly 0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:06.120 in the United States, right, and nobody in Canada other 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:09.000 than people in the television business knew that it was 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.600 a success in the US. And um was it also 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:15.200 aired elsewhere? Oh yeah, all over the lot of countries 0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:17.239 around the world. Yeah, but it was on Nickelodeon here. 0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:21.880 I think that's so funny story when um uh, shortly 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:25.120 after Drake broke as an art music artist. Um, my 0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:27.040 wife and family and I were in l A visiting 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:29.200 with some people I used to work with here and 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:32.080 to two women that hadded families and they used to 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:35.680 work within their sisters and uh um uh. Their kids 0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:37.120 were younger than ours. And we're all sitting in this 0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:39.799 big family restaurant, big long table. Are my family on 0:37:39.800 --> 0:37:41.759 one side, there is on the other side. And the 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:44.960 kids were really quiet. They were not talking at all, 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:47.239 and they were just staring at us. And after a 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:49.600 few minutes it got kind of uncomfortable. And and then 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:52.319 the bravest one spoke up and said, you guys don't 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:56.359 sound Canadian. And we said, what do you mean. They said, 0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:59.200 you don't sound like those people in the grass And 0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:02.640 I said, oh, you watched a grassy and Selene their 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.160 mothers said, my friend Selene that their mother said, are 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:07.719 you nuts? This is the biggest thing amongst the teens 0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:10.200 and tweens down here, and nobody in the Canadian music 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:13.320 industry anyway knew that. And that's one of the reasons 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:16.200 why Drake was overlooked by the Canaan music business. Certainly, 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:17.920 one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made in my 0:38:18.000 --> 0:38:20.480 career was I could never, I can never. I'll never 0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:23.919 forget every week for a year in early my Space days, 0:38:24.440 --> 0:38:26.600 Barb Seten, who worked for me, you know very well, 0:38:26.640 --> 0:38:30.000 in Tanya Coglan and Mike Fox and UH, my staff 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:32.239 and my publish in Canada would sit around and we'd 0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:33.840 have an a R meeting and we would filter the 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:36.680 MySpace charts for Canada and Drake was number one and 0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:41.560 number two for a year and UM, but we didn't 0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:43.080 know why this was. I mean, listen to the music 0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:45.000 with that was pretty good, and you know, and and 0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:47.360 but we just didn understand the entire picture because we 0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:49.960 had no idea that he would had, you know, hundreds 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.800 of thousands of fans in America. So basically, his mixtapes 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:55.719 are blowing up in America and we didn't know that. 0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:57.920 And people who follow that stuff in the US, the 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.560 little Waynes and then the people in the industry saw 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:03.040 the happening and that was the That was the moment 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:06.799 when everything became possible for Canadian music because they didn't 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.360 care where he's from, because the American public was had spoken. 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.960 And so from that point on it has not only 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.080 has it not mattered that you're Canadian in those those genres, 0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:18.879 but now it's cool to be Canadian. UM. A couple 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:23.280 of years ago, UH, one of my publisher members, UM 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.040 who's runs a multinational in Toronto, the Toronto office the 0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:28.200 multinationalist sent we were talking about this very issue, and 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:30.920 he said, yeah, so and so the you know, the 0:39:30.960 --> 0:39:33.279 head of the us AT us off Creative Stuff just 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:36.840 called last week and said, we're signing this girl in 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:39.960 l A. Um looking at her bio material, turns out 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:42.160 she was raised in l A but born in Toronto. 0:39:42.440 --> 0:39:45.880 Would you mind if we said she's from Toronto? That 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:50.120 is really a switch. Let's mind blowing to Canadians, right 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.200 to think that that anybody would ever think it's cooler 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:54.160 to be from from Toronto than l a. But in 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:56.000 many ways it's true now, you know, at least, I 0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.879 mean what it is is is that Canadians, don't they 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:02.880 people growing up admiring Drake will now take it for 0:40:02.920 --> 0:40:04.960 granted that you can conquer the world and you can 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:06.720 do it from Toronto, and you can do it proudly 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.200 and there, and that you know, there's kids coming to 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:11.160 Toronto as tourists that want to stand in the street 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:13.279 corner that he talks about in his songs, just like 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:15.960 you know, used to happen to Canadians listening to American 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:19.560 songs right come in l A Okay before the Toronto. 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.200 See not that there always hasn't been a Toronto scene. 0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:26.400 The big scene was in Montreal. Broken social scene. What 0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:29.959 do you think cause that well, broken social scenes partly 0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:32.319 from Montreal. Well, I mean did Montreal see I don't 0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:35.200 want to make it about broken social Yeah, well Montreal's 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:38.000 tray will be vibrant city. That's one of the greatest 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:40.720 um places in the world to go to school, for instance, 0:40:41.239 --> 0:40:44.640 and so and and you know it's it's a very 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:49.120 European culture. That's the uh work to live culture more 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:52.160 than the work they live to work culture. So you know, 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:56.080 they take art seriously. Um, they take culture seriously. And um, 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:57.800 there's there would used to be a lot of clubs 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.000 and and and it's a big call ug town so 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.919 you get that that melting pot as well, and get 0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:07.640 arcade fire out of their for instance, right, um and um. 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:10.439 You know it's also kind of the Quebec music scene 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:12.520 is kind of her metrically sealed. It's sort of like 0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.880 almost like Nashville where um, or even in England in 0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:17.760 a way like I I look at those music scenes 0:41:17.760 --> 0:41:19.880 as places where you look at it as a sport. 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.160 You're in the stadium and the game is unfolding on 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:24.040 the field in front of it. You can understand the game. 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:26.400 You can see the prep with the ends of the box. Right, 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:29.719 So cabecs like that and US and and uh it's 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:33.040 um it's got a star system and um uh and 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:37.440 it's kind of it's never easy to get careers reving, 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.719 but it's probably easier there than some other places. To 0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:45.160 what degree do you believe Canadian social safety net boost 0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:50.880 music development? What's huge? Because um uh you know of 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:53.839 Canadian content and the government grant supports and other other 0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:58.399 other encouragement of the arts. Um and uh, that's all 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:00.920 tied to the same mentality, right, and you know your 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:02.799 Canadian musician doesn't have to worry about going to the 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:06.279 hospital and if it's going to bankrupt them. Uh, you 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:08.960 know which is you know a huge thing. Let's say 0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.680 I'm a I'm a twenty two year old person making 0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:14.640 beats in Canada. Can I get money from the government 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:18.640 just to live? Uh, They'll give you a check to live, 0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:23.160 but um, you can You've got organizations like factor forgetting 0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:26.360 music organizations. I'm not even in the music business. To 0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.560 what degree you know you don't get paid by the governments. 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.680 That's what squee is their welfare well, it's like welfare 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:35.480 like there is anywhere. But our musicians living on welfare 0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:38.000 these days not so much now because there's a lot 0:42:38.000 --> 0:42:41.279 of employment. You know, it's it's a healthy economy people have. 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:44.319 It's a gig economy. So people they'll have a day 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.280 gig and you know, and they uh spend their evenings 0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:50.920 and weekends banging away at their at their art and 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:54.080 eventually I could give up the day gig if they're lucky. Okay, 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:58.879 Vancouver was historically a rock town. Is that still true Vancouver? Um, 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:01.760 there's a lot of people talked about the Vancouver music scene. UM. 0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:04.840 In some ways people say it's dead. Um, certainly the 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:07.600 rock side of it because the club scene has disappeared 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:12.120 a lot. UM. But you know, we had so canon 0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:15.440 in our in our staff. We truly believe that, UM, 0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:18.279 Vancouver could be the next biggest place because again you 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:21.200 talk about multicultural it's amazing and we just think that 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:24.280 people aren't fishing in the right ponds and we're making 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:26.879 big strides and making connections in the you know, South 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:30.680 Asian communities and uh places where you know there's somebody 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:33.200 in their bedroom that's making something incredible, and UM, we 0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:35.040 just got it. They're not connected to the business because 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:37.839 they're growing up not knowing. Right, Okay, the story and 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:40.120 you were part of it. The story twenty years ago, 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:44.279 years ago was how publishers were starting acts and then 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:47.200 they graduated to the labels. To what degree is so 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:50.759 can involve in development and what place in the game. 0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:53.960 So twenty three years ago, if you set out to 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:57.040 be a creator, music, creator, artist, writer, um, one of 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.080 the first two or three thoughts that came into your 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:00.960 brain was, oh, I gotta joined so can or if 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.200 the America asked CAMP B M I or pr S 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:05.000 in England. One of the reasons for that you see 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:07.279 it on record credits and you wouldn't necessarily know what 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:10.600 it is, but you see it relationships in relationship to 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:13.120 being a pro. So I got to join that. And 0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:15.640 just to be clear, if I'm an American, can I 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:19.759 join so can? Uh? There's no rules, but we we 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:22.480 do not We don't want our members to leave and 0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:24.080 become members of the U s p r os and 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:26.799 so therefore, and we don't want to sign people that 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:27.960 the U s p r O S would want to 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:30.759 sign in their own countries. So and I could do 0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:32.919 it if I wanted to. There's no law that says 0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:37.640 you can't. Um, but we we we respect their Okay, 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:39.960 So I go back to your point. Yeah, so, um, 0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:43.560 what was my point? You're talking about Vancouver, right, Yeah, 0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:46.880 so you're talking about development of acts, right, so me 0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:50.040 thirty years ago we left it right, So when you 0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:53.279 first started out years ago, you thought of joining. So 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:56.959 I can ask my whatever, um we're trying to do now, 0:44:57.560 --> 0:44:59.680 is trying to get that little logo back in the 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:02.000 brain of somebody who was sitting in their bedroom and 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:03.520 they're fourteen years old and saying I think I want 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.640 to make music because there's a lawful lot of other 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:08.239 logos crowding it out. Okay, in the digital era, how 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.080 do you get that logo? See? Yeah, so um uh, 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:13.120 we want to treat We want to implant the thought 0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:17.560 that your career starts here. Right. So, um, we have 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:19.480 what we call the new member value gap, which we 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.000 identified which is okay, if I joined, so can uh, 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:25.879 what what do I get? And well, you get royalties? Yeah, 0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:28.279 but I don't have any music ding royalties yet? Right, 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:30.279 So so you get joined, so can even though you 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:33.160 don't have a record out? Yeah, yeah, we have five 0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:34.800 or six thousand people you're joining. We have about a 0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:38.520 hundred and sixty thousand members and UM, so we try 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:40.839 and create programs to UM. We look at as it's 0:45:40.880 --> 0:45:42.680 like ecosystem. It's a pond. We want to be the 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:45.080 sunshine in the pond. We want to you know, there 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:47.960 to be more planked than you know, more guppies and 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.080 that kind of thing. And so uh, it's it's a 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.439 less targeted than a than a publishing company or record 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:56.720 label would do it. UM. You know, we have program 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.520 we have it. For instance, we have an educational program 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:03.040 called Cooking Beats where we have a famous beat maker 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:05.240 will set on the stage and it's like the motif 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:07.200 of a cooking show on TV. Instead of the cameras 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.160 and the ceiling looking down in the stove, we have 0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:11.880 their laptop, laptop hooked up to a giant screen and 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:14.120 they tear apart one of their famous beats and then 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:16.920 we'll trought to set a community music week or conferences 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:20.480 like that, and and they're very very popular. Kids love it. Uh, 0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:22.000 you know that gets the brand own, it gets it 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:26.440 educates people. We have song camps. Now, how about literally 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.360 giving an act money to develop or literally trying to 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:34.239 make in roads in a label or a publisher. So, um, 0:46:34.280 --> 0:46:36.520 you know, again we're complimentary to what the publishers and 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.640 labels do. We think we're at the stage pre when, 0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:42.080 prior to when people are ready for them. So if 0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:44.560 we can do something to keep somebody alive for another year, 0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:48.120 get them to a showcase, uh, get into a song camp, 0:46:48.400 --> 0:46:50.680 get some craft development, and get them some confidence. When 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.719 we have a song camp, the number one thing that 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:56.480 comes out of it is self confidence. Yeah. You know, 0:46:56.760 --> 0:46:59.400 every camp usually yields one song that gets cut or something, 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:02.480 but it's kind of they're always sequestered and people are 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:04.520 living together for a week and they come out of 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:06.480 it feeling like they just had a week's worth of 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:08.879 incredible group therapy. You know that they did make them 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:10.520 make the right choice in their life and they and 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:12.520 they have now a group of people that that they 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:14.799 know that think like them and et cetera. And so 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:19.040 just the boost of self confidence, um, keeps them alive 0:47:19.080 --> 0:47:21.320 and and and and and working at their craft for 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:24.399 another year and then they're ready to get a record 0:47:24.440 --> 0:47:29.080 deal or a publishing deal. Okay, So people thought hip 0:47:29.120 --> 0:47:31.960 hop would die and today they would say it's like 0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.840 rock and roll it's forever, but rock and roll seems 0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:38.000 to have died. So as someone who's a big observer 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:41.759 of the scene certainly where it's happening, you know, what 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:46.600 is the runway, what is the roadmap into the future. Well, 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:50.560 it's somewhat controversial when I say this, and I don't 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:53.000 say it because I wanted to be this way, but 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:56.280 this is my own personal opinion of what the future holds. 0:47:56.520 --> 0:47:59.120 Is that I think that the guitar is dead and 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:02.040 rock is dead. Uh, And then that's an exaggeration. They're 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:03.759 not dead, they're never going away, but they're never going 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:08.839 to be the primary yeah, like jazz um. And one 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:11.319 of the reasons for that is that's the unstoppable march 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:15.880 of technology, in the unstoppable march of the democratization of music, 0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:20.279 the democratization of the making and music. So look back, 0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:25.120 say um electric guitar wasn't was a great example itself 0:48:25.280 --> 0:48:29.160 of of incredible democratization the creation of music. And so 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:31.320 before that you had big band era. You had to 0:48:31.440 --> 0:48:35.200 bus loads full of really sophisticated people could read music, 0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:39.120 write music, and we're well trained their instruments, and they 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:41.200 can only record if they went into a thing called 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:44.040 a studio owned by a record label, and um, that 0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:48.319 was a very elite, closed group of people. Uh. Then 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:51.040 an electric guitar comes along and say, Buddy Holly's hands right, 0:48:51.200 --> 0:48:54.640 three chords, just not doesn't know how to play his 0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:57.600 guitar like a you know, famous traumpa player of Benny 0:48:57.600 --> 0:48:59.560 Goodman knew how to play his clarinet or whatever. He 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:02.360 wasn't trying. He just knew three chords. And he recorded 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:06.480 in a garage, which is also democratization of recording. Where 0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:10.520 is you know, um, what's his name, Norma Petty? Yeah, yeah, 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:13.040 this producer probably bought used gear from one of those 0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:15.120 big New York studios that you couldn't get into anymore 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:17.080 and and put it in his garage and and that 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:19.480 was you didn't they didn't need permission from anybody, And 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:21.320 they went toured with three guys at the station wagon, 0:49:22.520 --> 0:49:26.600 hugely forward, you know, sampling, same thing, right. So I 0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:30.400 think that, um, that march of technology that democratizes creation 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:33.040 of music is unstoppable, and and it puts creation of 0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:35.240 music in the hands of people who don't have any training, 0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:39.080 and every generation, people who are most interested in making 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:41.720 music pick up the tools of their generation, which today 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:45.200 is a laptop or a phone. Um and uh, and 0:49:45.280 --> 0:49:47.160 starts to make music with those tools, and the very 0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:49.680 best of them, in the most motivated and driven, you know, 0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:53.680 end up becoming successful and make a difference, and that 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:57.160 becomes their generations music. That's what's happening now. And I 0:49:57.200 --> 0:50:01.239 think personally the next wave of the democratization of the 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:04.360 creation of music is artificial intelligence, because I think I 0:50:04.360 --> 0:50:07.160 think the the future of creation of music will be 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:12.400 how people humans create art by mucking with the technology 0:50:12.880 --> 0:50:18.720 a little bit deeper. So some examples. UM I started 0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:21.680 as a recording engineer and UM, I watched the introduction 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:24.960 of the drum machine, and uh. First of all, drummers, 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:27.480 of course were horrified, and they had every excuse in 0:50:27.520 --> 0:50:29.719 the world. Why was no good, It didn't feel like 0:50:29.760 --> 0:50:31.759 a human blah blah blah. And of course people try 0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:35.200 to use it to make it sound real. And and 0:50:35.239 --> 0:50:38.360 then the smart drummers said, well, they bought one and 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:41.359 they became a percussion solutionist instead of a drummer, and 0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.520 they still had the same producers would hire them, and 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:46.080 now they hire them to make that drum machine thing. 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:50.160 And then um, eventually people started using a drum machine, 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:53.719 uh in ways that people couldn't play drums, to take 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:56.319 a high hat and go you know that kind of thing, 0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:58.880 and and so that's what it got its real value 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:01.440 because it's doing something in the person can't do. Then 0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:03.279 I watched the sampler come in the fair Light, was 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:07.000 the first commercial digital sampler, and um, I remember the 0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:09.600 very first reaction people was always, although now we don't 0:51:09.600 --> 0:51:11.680 have to hire a cello player, I can sample a 0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:14.160 cello and played on the keyboard. And then I attributed 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:16.080 to may not be true, but I personally in my 0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:20.879 life attribute the breakthrough commercial breakthrough of the art of 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:24.600 using a sampler was owner of Lonely Heart by Yes, 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:28.600 Trevor Horne produced it. And I remember where I was 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:30.440 when I first heard. I was driving along the freeway 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:33.080 in Toronto and I had to pull over because I 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:35.479 couldn't believe what I was hearing. I'd never heard anything 0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:37.040 like it. And of course what he did instead of 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:40.319 trying to emulate something real, he said, gee, I won 0:51:40.400 --> 0:51:42.600 if we put the entire Lenon Symphia orchestra on on 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:46.919 each key and then went, you know, but right, and 0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:51.000 he created something that humans couldn't do, so I think 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:53.840 that that's the same thing with artificial intelligence. Another example 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.960 of technology like that would be the auto tune. So 0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:59.239 the guy invented auto tune, I've read interviews with him. 0:51:59.280 --> 0:52:02.759 He invented auto tune to tune vocals um And yet 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.800 you know, the breakthrough for auto tune was the share 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:08.520 record and I believe and the guys were in the 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:11.839 studio I'm sure with her and they said, oh, it's 0:52:11.880 --> 0:52:13.319 she's slightly out of tune. How what do we do. 0:52:13.400 --> 0:52:15.360 I've heard this new thing called auto tune. Let's go 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:17.279 rent it. They rented it, They plug it in, and 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:18.319 what do you do when you plug it in a 0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:19.640 piece of gear For the first time, you turn it 0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:21.399 all the way left and then all the way right. 0:52:21.440 --> 0:52:22.759 And when they turned it all the way right, it 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:27.080 went and invented that over auto tune sound. And then 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:29.480 the next wave of music I remember seeing was I 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:31.600 think we might have been Farrell or one of those producers, 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:33.880 and maybe a timble in Farrell. When the height of 0:52:33.920 --> 0:52:37.480 when auto tune first came in widely, they said, even 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:39.839 if it's in tune, I auto tune it because that's 0:52:39.880 --> 0:52:42.600 the sound of music today. And now You've got kids 0:52:42.600 --> 0:52:45.400 growing up who were one of us to be singers, 0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:47.960 and they're listening to auto tune records and they naturally 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:51.520 sound like their auto tune. So all you look at 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:53.920 all those kind of developments, and then I think it's 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:57.160 really easy to look at artificial intelligence. Okay, that's certainly 0:52:57.160 --> 0:53:03.960 democratizes creating music because anybody un initiated describe what artificial 0:53:04.000 --> 0:53:06.920 intelligence is and how it would apply in the music business. 0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:11.440 I'm not intelligent enough to aren't describe artificial intelligence, but 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:15.760 you know, it's you program the computer to the point 0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:19.319 where it can imitate human behavior and then hopefully go 0:53:19.400 --> 0:53:24.680 a little step. Well yeah, and uh and some machine 0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:27.560 learning is another another term for it. So there's already 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:31.200 platforms out there that make music that um that either 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:34.680 have no intervention from a person or you you interact 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:36.600 with it in different ways like you type in purple 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:40.640 or something and um uh, so that I think that's 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:43.080 the future right now. Way, just to be clear, because 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:46.920 based on all your things, you've said, there's a technology 0:53:47.000 --> 0:53:51.360 and the human plays with the technology. Do you believe 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:56.560 that ultimately AI will create its own music or what 0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:59.520 the human will do with the tools of a the 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:02.960 letter so well. First of all, AI is making music 0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:07.000 right now. But again, just like those examples I gave, um, 0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:13.200 they're using people are expecting regular sounding music to come 0:54:13.200 --> 0:54:15.600 out of it, and people are saying, well, it's not 0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:17.239 very good, or it's not you know, it's there's no 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.759 soul or whatever. But I think what's gonna happen is 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:22.560 that somebody will interact with it and come up with 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:24.600 something the equivalent of taking the high hat and going 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:28.240 They'll do that with words, they'll do with melodies, they'll combine, 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.560 you know, um, different strains of music that people have 0:54:31.719 --> 0:54:33.319 never done before. They'll do it in a way you 0:54:33.360 --> 0:54:35.440 can't before, and they'll do it without any knowledge of 0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:39.480 how to do that because they're just interacting computer. Okay, 0:54:39.600 --> 0:54:43.000 how comes certain sounds have their window and faith Like 0:54:43.040 --> 0:54:46.880 in the late seventies it was the syndrome, right, but 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:50.319 the fake hand clap of the t R O eight 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:53.200 O eight lives on. Why do you think that is? 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:56.600 I have no idea, I mean doing what I hear that, 0:54:56.600 --> 0:55:00.759 I go remember that two. So it immediately makes it 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:03.600 me feel like these people are not testing the limits, 0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:06.400 which brings me to the next question. Irrelevant of what 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:09.880 instruments or how this music is created right now, A 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:13.520 lot of the popular music's lacks melody. Do you believe 0:55:13.560 --> 0:55:18.279 melody will come back? Well, I don't even say it. 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:21.520 I don't even think it lacks melody today. I think that, Um, 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:24.879 you know, it's really easy to say, oh, today's music 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.839 sucks in whatever way, either that sucks generally or that 0:55:27.920 --> 0:55:29.719 has no melody or whatever, and I think that we 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:32.320 have no perspective on it. I think that every generation 0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:35.799 has always said that about the following generation's music. Um, 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:38.920 I hear lots of melody cooks on record. Generally there 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:41.719 are somebody a featured singer and a rap record or there, 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:44.439 or there are an instrumental part. But I hear lots 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:47.200 of melodies. There's no question that records today, the production 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:51.120 it forms more of the of the core of the 0:55:51.600 --> 0:55:54.239 of the record than in the in the past. But 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:56.839 again that that's just a um, the march of time. 0:55:56.920 --> 0:55:59.560 That's progress. I mean that there's more technology involved with 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:01.239 making a Well, I would say a lot of the 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:06.759 be driven records, melody is secondary, tertiary or there at all. 0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:09.600 So just like the same thing. You know, there's a 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:13.480 steampunk movement which drives me nuts, but one would anticipate 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:16.120 it somewhere down the line. There's gonna just like with vinyl, 0:56:16.160 --> 0:56:21.279 which is really amplified beyond the reality. Don't get me 0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:23.960 started exactly, We're on the same page, it sounds like. 0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:27.960 But the UM there will be people who would probably 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:32.120 return to acoustic instruments just as a reaction. Yeah, there's 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:34.640 no question the pendulum always swings. But I think that 0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:43.279 the real instrument backlash will be upward peaks of downward curve. Okay, 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:48.960 so do you anticipate any changes imminently? I think that, 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:52.160 you know, the next few years, whether it's two, three, five, 0:56:52.200 --> 0:56:55.920 we're gonna see UM great records come out that have 0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:58.480 astonishing things about them. They are there because of the 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:00.719 AI and have with the way the person screw with it. Again, 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:03.160 I can't, you know, I'm not smart enough to involved 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:07.399 in enough to imagine exactly what it is. But very simplistically, 0:57:07.480 --> 0:57:10.760 you know you're gonna get somebody who takes Bob Dylan 0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:14.120 a lyric program and turns Bob Dylan to ten, takes 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:16.800 a melody program and turns you know, McCartney to minus 0:57:16.880 --> 0:57:20.200 five and hooks up the digital of delay in a 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:22.200 phaser between them or something. You know, that's a very 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:25.600 uber simplistic way of describe. You believe that's within the 0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:28.680 next two or three years. I think two to five years. Okay, 0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:32.280 let's talk. Spotify is the dominant player in streaming music, 0:57:32.360 --> 0:57:36.040 even eclipses YouTube at this point. Uh. But if you 0:57:36.120 --> 0:57:40.000 look at the Spotify Top fifty, unlike if people who 0:57:40.000 --> 0:57:42.760 grew up in the air of Top forty radio, it 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:46.360 is pretty monochronistic, if that's even a word, monochrome, and 0:57:46.400 --> 0:57:49.720 then it's all basically hip hop, maybe a little pop 0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:53.520 thrown in. This is a unique thing because there used 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:56.360 to always be a filter saying no, we're gonna put 0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:59.120 in these other elements. And to agree there's radio radio 0:57:59.200 --> 0:58:02.600 to a great degree replicates that. To what degree is 0:58:02.680 --> 0:58:05.680 that evidence of what people really want? Or do we 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:08.960 need an opportunity for other styles of music. That's a 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:11.520 great question. And I sort of alluded to it earlier 0:58:11.560 --> 0:58:16.439 that we're concerned about that when it comes to say 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:20.440 the existence of Canadian content, right, UM are very early 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:22.479 on in our studies. We're going to refine our data, 0:58:22.560 --> 0:58:26.040 but our data is showing that, um, the consumption of 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:31.600 Canadian music by Canadians is disturbingly low in the in 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:35.600 the digital space compared to the traditional broadcast media. And 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:40.080 if that's the case, um our next thinking is that 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:42.200 it must be a discover ability issue, because there's no 0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:45.520 availability issue. Everybody's got the music on those platforms. And 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:50.640 an example of and so basically they're unintentionally biased, perhaps 0:58:50.800 --> 0:58:55.720 in favor of of cultures from large countries or large populations, 0:58:55.920 --> 0:58:58.480 or you know, certain genres of music or whatever. It's 0:58:58.600 --> 0:59:02.360 it's an unintentional and biased and um a good example 0:59:02.440 --> 0:59:04.320 that would be you know, the it was that Martina 0:59:04.400 --> 0:59:06.760 McBride into last year since she tried to create an 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:10.400 automated playlist and she seated it with a Rebend McEntire 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:13.640 track or something like that, and then uh, nineteen of 0:59:13.720 --> 0:59:16.720 the other tracks that were automatically generated for we're all men. 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:21.760 Uh you know so, and these aren't There's nothing evil 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:24.360 about all this stuff. These are an unintended consequences of 0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:27.880 the mecha describing mechanisms. And I think these these platforms 0:59:27.920 --> 0:59:31.760 genuinely a want to make music as discoverable as possible 0:59:32.240 --> 0:59:34.360 and and and please the customer that way, and be 0:59:34.560 --> 0:59:37.400 they want to localize their products for different territories and 0:59:37.400 --> 0:59:40.480 different cultures. I just think that we're not there yet 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:43.160 to the point where it's done done well enough. And 0:59:43.280 --> 0:59:45.200 uh so that's a concern of ours in terms of 0:59:45.200 --> 0:59:48.200 Canadian content. But if you could insert any subgenre or 0:59:48.240 --> 0:59:51.520 small genre or of music there that I think everybody 0:59:51.560 --> 1:00:02.520 should be as concerned. Uh, because um of what you're saying. Okay, 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:05.920 you started out as a drummer. Okay, drummer. When did 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:09.600 you start playing drums? It was about five. My dad 1:00:09.680 --> 1:00:11.600 was an amateur drummer and he your father, and so 1:00:11.640 --> 1:00:14.120 it's in the family. Yeah. He was a big jazz fan. 1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:18.200 Uh and um uh. He would played in little jazz 1:00:18.240 --> 1:00:21.720 combos and um. And he actually taught me how to 1:00:21.760 --> 1:00:24.280 listen to records. We'd sit around on a Saturday afternoon 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:25.840 and you'd have a beer and from in front of 1:00:25.840 --> 1:00:28.400 the big gold console stereo that's as big as a couch, 1:00:28.720 --> 1:00:30.800 and he'd be listening to you know, Benny Goodman and 1:00:30.840 --> 1:00:33.840 Count Basie and all those people, and uh, he'd say, 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:36.200 listen to this, listen that secks, so listen to how 1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:38.960 that got drummer did this? And uh so that really 1:00:39.000 --> 1:00:41.919 got me both intrigued and and interested and be able 1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:44.280 to listen, right and uh. And then I played in 1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:46.440 a town marching band that my dad was involved with 1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:47.920 to keep the kids off the street. We had no 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:50.440 music in schools. But I was the youngest kid ever 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:53.120 in the band. And I would we'd be on the 1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:56.120 march and I'd be playing the symbols and um, I 1:00:56.160 --> 1:00:58.880 would hit them so hard that they they'd stick like 1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:02.439 a suction cup, but to go clang, clank. And then 1:01:02.480 --> 1:01:04.280 so the leader of the band would mark time and 1:01:04.440 --> 1:01:06.400 make for the band to catch up, and he'd take 1:01:06.480 --> 1:01:08.000 them out of my hands and unstick them and hand 1:01:08.040 --> 1:01:11.720 them back to me. And then we also played uh. 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.200 Concert was a concert band to like forty kids, right. 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.880 You know, I was probably ten when I joined, but 1:01:16.880 --> 1:01:20.120 there was maybe the oldest seventeen eighteen. And um, the 1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:22.400 leader of the band, his name is Frank Banks, was 1:01:22.480 --> 1:01:24.880 really a progressive guy and he and he was trying 1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:26.520 to keep the kids interested in and this is the 1:01:26.520 --> 1:01:29.040 air at rock era. So he did an arrangement of 1:01:29.080 --> 1:01:31.240 Tommy's overture that we were playing in this you know 1:01:31.320 --> 1:01:34.320 forty person Bank. Yeah, and then and then he let 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:37.200 myself and the other drummer bring our drum kids in 1:01:37.280 --> 1:01:40.640 and we did dueling in a god at avita solos 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:45.800 in the middle of this you know, horn orchestra, um. Yeah, 1:01:45.840 --> 1:01:48.160 and then you know bands and everything. But I wanted 1:01:48.240 --> 1:01:51.200 to be um. I didn't think you could you could. 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:53.000 I didn't think you could be from my town and 1:01:53.000 --> 1:01:54.840 and and and be successful in me it's just to 1:01:54.960 --> 1:01:58.360 be from my audience. Where was your it's called Lindsay 1:01:58.400 --> 1:01:59.840 was about an hour and a half from northeast to 1:01:59.840 --> 1:02:02.600 tron On and uh and in the entire existence of 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:05.920 the town, nobody ever made anything out of being a 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:11.880 music career. And talk about Canadian content impact um uh. 1:02:12.000 --> 1:02:14.040 At our work show that's coming up in the end 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:17.920 of March, um, we're probably there's probably half a dozen 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:21.080 or more awards going to people from the area of 1:02:21.080 --> 1:02:24.200 my town. Okay, so you're growing up, Are you like 1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:27.360 a music fanatic, buying the records, listening to the radio 1:02:27.480 --> 1:02:29.480 or is just one thing that you do? No? No, 1:02:29.600 --> 1:02:32.880 I was fanatical about it, and I was fanatical about records. 1:02:32.960 --> 1:02:36.000 I was. I just mesmerized by what I called my 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:38.240 magic records. And everybody's got them in their life. There's 1:02:38.320 --> 1:02:41.640 those records that you know when your girlfriend leaves your 1:02:41.680 --> 1:02:44.000 something that saves your life by listening to it, or 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:46.280 just takes you to another world transport you and I 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:48.920 had records like that, and and what would you remember 1:02:48.960 --> 1:02:52.080 a couple of those records? Um, well, certainly Dark Side 1:02:52.120 --> 1:02:55.520 of the Moon uh. And in fact that record um 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:58.240 and the guests who I get that the minute, but 1:02:58.520 --> 1:02:59.880 they guess who to me are the big bang a 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:03.439 Canadian music and and and before them you didn't think 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:05.000 that you could be Canadian and you could do this. 1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:08.640 And after them, they made people realize that you could 1:03:08.640 --> 1:03:11.400 be Canadian, you could have world success and and and 1:03:11.480 --> 1:03:13.520 not have to move to the US. And even in 1:03:13.560 --> 1:03:16.800 my life, bigger story was behind the scenes, you could 1:03:16.840 --> 1:03:18.720 do that. And Jack Ridgards and the guy who discovered 1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:21.240 and produced them, became sort of my hero. And I 1:03:21.280 --> 1:03:23.760 wanted to Uh. I wanted to find him because I 1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:25.920 wanted to find what the secret of making a magic 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:28.840 record was. And so I was in the technology and 1:03:28.840 --> 1:03:31.000 electronics and and when you know, you're the era of 1:03:31.080 --> 1:03:33.680 Pink Floyd and all the flying echoes and things like that, 1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:35.680 and I thought, Okay, it's technology that's the secret to 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:39.640 making a magic record. And so I wanted to become 1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:42.280 a recording engineer, and um, I wanted to thought you 1:03:42.320 --> 1:03:44.080 could must be a school for it, because you look 1:03:44.120 --> 1:03:45.680 at a picture of a recording console, it was a 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:48.440 thousand knobs on it. And there wasn't any schools in 1:03:48.480 --> 1:03:50.440 the world. And I looked for two years and finally 1:03:50.440 --> 1:03:53.400 the first world's first credited chorus for recording engineering record 1:03:53.480 --> 1:03:56.480 record production sprung up in London, Ontario, Canada, called Music 1:03:56.560 --> 1:03:59.400 Industry Arts at Fanshaw College, and I found it. It 1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:01.720 was amazing moment in my life when I realized there 1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:06.040 is a school and my goal was to find the school, 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.080 get into school, graduate, find Jack Richardson and go work 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:11.880 for him. And that's exactly what happened. Okay, how long 1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:13.720 were we in the school? Three years? How did you 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:16.560 find Jack Richardson? Um? He came down to the guest 1:04:16.600 --> 1:04:19.560 lecture one day because his son, Garth was a new 1:04:19.600 --> 1:04:21.040 student in the first year and I was in my 1:04:21.080 --> 1:04:23.480 third year, and I thought, this is it. My heroes 1:04:23.560 --> 1:04:26.720 come I this is my day. And I basically falled 1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:29.080 him around like a puppy dog and basically hung onto 1:04:29.080 --> 1:04:31.000 his ankle, wouldn't let go all day, and finally at 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:32.680 the end of the day, he turned his son and 1:04:32.680 --> 1:04:36.240 he said, who's that kid? And uh Karth said, well, 1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:40.080 he's actually the number one student in the school. And 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:43.000 he said and and he said, he's not crazy, he 1:04:43.080 --> 1:04:46.080 just thinks he's said you're just his hero. So Jack 1:04:46.120 --> 1:04:48.560 turned him and say, if you're ever in Toronto sometime, 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:54.360 give me a call and come into the studio. Yeah, exactly. 1:04:54.600 --> 1:04:57.040 And they basically never left. And I graduated and he 1:04:57.280 --> 1:04:59.800 got an internship. Didn't call it that then, but he 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.440 and he's hired me for the summer. And when I graduated, 1:05:02.440 --> 1:05:06.400 and the very very first day, my other hero was 1:05:06.440 --> 1:05:09.800 bob Ezman and the very very first day was bob 1:05:09.840 --> 1:05:12.600 Ezman session. So it was like, what was your role 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:17.280 was in turn? Okay? And you remember what the session was? Uh? 1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:21.680 Tim Curry her picture Schaces first solo record. Okay, So 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:24.360 how did you graduate? Up the ladder in the studio? 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:27.200 Because I had been to school and and I was 1:05:27.240 --> 1:05:29.280 in the first generation of people had been to school, 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:33.640 nobody knew what I knew and U uh. One day 1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:37.080 Jack was producing a vocal and the head engineer UM 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:40.640 couldn't for some reason, couldn't get sound working and Jack 1:05:40.760 --> 1:05:42.600 and the and the singer got up pretty upset of 1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:45.760 chorus after about five minutes of no sound, and uh 1:05:46.240 --> 1:05:48.320 singer said, I'm going to get a coffee and and 1:05:48.640 --> 1:05:50.720 Jack turned to the engineer said I'm gonna get a 1:05:50.720 --> 1:05:52.360 coffee too, And if when I come back, if it's 1:05:52.400 --> 1:05:55.520 not happening, you're done that kind of thing, right, So 1:05:55.600 --> 1:05:58.360 he was just shaking, right. And because I knew how 1:05:58.360 --> 1:05:59.640 to work the board. I knew how to work the 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.200 board because when I was hanging out there before they 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:04.360 hired me, I would talk to the maintenance guy and 1:06:04.360 --> 1:06:06.800 he would give me a photocopy of the schematic of 1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:09.120 the board and then a photocopy of the front page 1:06:09.160 --> 1:06:11.800 of the manual. So I built a life size cardboard 1:06:11.800 --> 1:06:14.120 cutout of the board when I was in school, and 1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:16.800 I used to pretend to work it was sitting in bed. 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:18.960 So by time I started there as a gopher, I 1:06:19.040 --> 1:06:20.600 knew how to work the board, eve though I've never 1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:22.360 touched it. What kind of board did they have? There's 1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:26.320 a highly modified auditronics And what was the name of 1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:29.800 the studio then Nimbus nine. Yeah, so um, anyway, so 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.200 they I knew what was I knew why the guy 1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:33.560 would couldn't get the sound, but I didn't want to 1:06:33.560 --> 1:06:35.200 embarrass them in front of Jack. And so as soon 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:37.000 as Jack left the control and I said, Jim, try 1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:38.560 the red button over there, and he looked at me like, 1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:39.840 who do you? Who are you? What do you know? 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:42.760 And uh, Finally, just before Jack came in, and he 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:44.640 knew he had nothing else to lose, so he tried 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:46.480 the red button in the sound came on right. So 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:49.680 from that moment on, they trusted me to do things. 1:06:49.720 --> 1:06:53.920 And then I happened to be lucky enough to be 1:06:54.000 --> 1:06:57.600 asked to engineer a demo for a band called the 1:06:57.680 --> 1:07:01.480 Kings because they're managers. Life was a receptionist in the 1:07:01.520 --> 1:07:04.240 studio and she talked Jack into give him the band downtime, 1:07:04.320 --> 1:07:06.240 free time, but he said, only if you can get 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:08.320 one of the guys to engineer it. And nobody wanted 1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:10.440 to do it, and again I said I'll do it, 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:12.240 and they looked at me. He said, you you don't 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:13.640 know how to do anything, and I said no, I 1:07:13.640 --> 1:07:16.160 went to school, remember, And they had no choice. They 1:07:16.160 --> 1:07:17.800 had how long have you been working there at that? 1:07:18.440 --> 1:07:21.040 Three or four months? Maybe six months? And um, and 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:22.640 so they said, well, I. I I guess it's the only 1:07:22.760 --> 1:07:24.320 the only choice. So they let me go in that 1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:26.880 weekend and I worked with this band and and they 1:07:27.160 --> 1:07:29.120 went off to try and get a record deal. And 1:07:29.160 --> 1:07:31.640 about six nine months later they couldn't get a record deal, 1:07:31.680 --> 1:07:33.840 but they came to the father they got guitar player's 1:07:33.880 --> 1:07:36.040 father had died left him a lot of money, so 1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:38.480 they said, we want to make an independent record and uh, 1:07:38.520 --> 1:07:40.480 we would have blockbooked the studio for a month. We 1:07:40.520 --> 1:07:42.840 want Mike to engineer and produce it, and they said, 1:07:42.840 --> 1:07:45.920 but he's only ever done your demo. And then we 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:49.440 also said, um, nobody's ever had any success with independent records. 1:07:49.560 --> 1:07:53.280 This is nineteen eighty let's say anyone and m and 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:55.919 we tried to talk about of it, and they finally said, look, 1:07:55.920 --> 1:07:57.600 we're trying to block book your studio for a month. 1:07:57.640 --> 1:08:00.200 Do you want the business or not? So they said, yeah, 1:08:00.200 --> 1:08:01.560 you can do it, but Mike has to work with 1:08:01.720 --> 1:08:04.520 the other engineer named Ringo Ringo Hersina, who was how 1:08:04.560 --> 1:08:06.880 many rooms were there in the studio just one, but 1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:09.360 actually that factors into the rest of the story. So 1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:11.800 we we so Ringo and I the next day started 1:08:11.840 --> 1:08:13.920 making this record with this band called the Kings, and uh, 1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:17.000 you know, thirty days go by and we make the record, 1:08:17.160 --> 1:08:19.360 and we're starting to do rough mixes and and and 1:08:19.360 --> 1:08:21.559 they had a new song was actually two songs and 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:24.639 one it's called this beat goes on and switch right 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:27.960 and and they had. But but in our really triumphant 1:08:28.040 --> 1:08:30.160 moment during the making the record was figuring how to 1:08:30.160 --> 1:08:33.599 connect the two songs because it recorded separately, right, and 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:36.280 they were so much Why did you decide to connect them? Well? 1:08:36.400 --> 1:08:39.000 That they did that was that was the bands and 1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:41.080 and there and one of the managers was I thought 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:43.519 was an r and our genius. They had decided to 1:08:43.520 --> 1:08:45.320 do this, and they had they had realized by playing 1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:47.920 it live that they didn't work very well independentalty. But 1:08:47.960 --> 1:08:50.120 you put them two together. And that was one of 1:08:50.120 --> 1:08:53.760 the biggest lessons I learned about hit songs was from this, 1:08:53.800 --> 1:08:55.920 because I asked the manager, I said, why did you 1:08:55.920 --> 1:08:57.519 guys know that this was the only way it works? 1:08:57.520 --> 1:09:00.400 You said, very simple. Hit records are rhythm melody hooks. 1:09:00.720 --> 1:09:02.240 One of them's got the melody hook, the other has 1:09:02.240 --> 1:09:05.080 got the rhythm hook, you know, and that kind of thing. Right. So, anyway, 1:09:05.280 --> 1:09:08.519 we were had the rough mixes together and Bob, I 1:09:08.560 --> 1:09:10.160 know he got the credit on the record. I bought 1:09:10.200 --> 1:09:13.200 the record. Yeah, well he so he came around, uh, 1:09:13.720 --> 1:09:15.960 trying to measure. He was thinking of buying the place, 1:09:16.120 --> 1:09:18.000 and he was measuring one of the rooms to see 1:09:18.040 --> 1:09:20.720 if you could build a second room, second studio. And 1:09:20.720 --> 1:09:22.519 when the band heard the Bob was there, they said, oh, 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:24.080 you got to bring him in and hear the stuff, 1:09:24.120 --> 1:09:26.240 and and Ringo and I said, on, I don't know, 1:09:26.360 --> 1:09:28.240 you know, he doesn't probably want to hear this stuff. 1:09:28.240 --> 1:09:30.080 And Ringoes and said, you know, he hasn't worked with 1:09:30.080 --> 1:09:32.439 an unknown band since Alice Cooper. And we've tried all 1:09:32.439 --> 1:09:34.719 these excuses. We didn't want to bother Bob. And finally 1:09:35.000 --> 1:09:38.200 the manager said, inter just me to him. So okay, 1:09:38.200 --> 1:09:39.880 so we go introduced them and then they talked for 1:09:39.920 --> 1:09:41.840 a while and and he brings Bob back in the 1:09:41.840 --> 1:09:44.240 control room. Bob says, let me hear it. So he pressed. 1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:46.120 We pressed playing on the tape, and the first thing 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:47.920 he hears is this. He goes on switching the guide. 1:09:48.160 --> 1:09:49.840 He stops it at the end and he says, there's 1:09:49.840 --> 1:09:51.800 a hit record. I'm gonna get you guys a record deal. 1:09:52.960 --> 1:09:55.400 Seven days later, he had them to deal with Electric Records, 1:09:55.720 --> 1:09:58.720 and he came in the in the studio waving a 1:09:58.880 --> 1:10:01.880 telex or something and uh saying, great news. You know, 1:10:01.880 --> 1:10:04.400 We've got the record deal, and I'm gonna produce and 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:07.400 reproduce the record. And Ringo and I sat during it, 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:10.879 where does that leave us? And Bob looked at us like, oh, 1:10:10.960 --> 1:10:14.600 you guys are gonna engineer an associate produce. We said, okay, fantastic, 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:16.679 and so we just the next day we started remaking 1:10:16.720 --> 1:10:19.680 the same album. Did he remake it from scratch? Oh? Yeah? 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:22.440 And and and and you know, it was an incredible 1:10:22.600 --> 1:10:28.080 example of Bob's genius because he made some subtle changes that, 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:31.080 in my opinion, made a huge, huge difference and and 1:10:31.360 --> 1:10:34.640 um uh so it was good. But although that was 1:10:34.680 --> 1:10:38.840 the punk era and um, and the band was not 1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:41.439 really a punk band, but they were trying to adopt 1:10:41.520 --> 1:10:43.920 a few the ethics of punk, and Bob was really 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.720 into punk, and and he decided that he didn't want 1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:49.680 to uh spend any time making getting the sounds, so 1:10:50.439 --> 1:10:52.800 um it was basically, you know, put the microphones up 1:10:52.840 --> 1:10:54.479 in a roll tape kind of thing. And and to 1:10:54.560 --> 1:10:56.200 this day I figured I might have still been an 1:10:56.200 --> 1:10:58.200 engineer if they would have given us time to get 1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:01.200 better sounds. But I don't know that record was a hit, 1:11:01.200 --> 1:11:03.720 at least in Los Angeles. How come they could never 1:11:03.800 --> 1:11:06.760 follow it up? Why? Why do most people not follow 1:11:06.800 --> 1:11:09.200 it up? Because it's lightning, you know? I guess they 1:11:09.240 --> 1:11:11.720 Also they kicked the manager out of the out of 1:11:11.760 --> 1:11:14.320 the whole situation, and UM and I really felt that 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:18.000 he was an incredibly important part of the of the 1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:21.240 creative dynamic of the band. And so after I left 1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:24.960 working for Jack Richardson and then left after we left 1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:27.960 working for Bob too, UM, I went back and found 1:11:27.960 --> 1:11:29.760 that guy and we started our own company. We called 1:11:29.760 --> 1:11:35.080 ourselves the Producers. Uh. Inspired by the movie and UM 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:37.360 went around finding bands, take him a studio and make 1:11:37.400 --> 1:11:40.599 records and UM UH did a lot of great stuff, 1:11:40.640 --> 1:11:44.760 but couldn't get arrested. And eventually, UH Frank Davies was 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:48.160 running a TV Canada offered me a job as created 1:11:48.160 --> 1:11:51.920 person there. Okay, let's go back. So what was your 1:11:51.960 --> 1:11:54.799 How long were you an engineer after that King's record? 1:11:55.240 --> 1:11:57.360 A couple of years, I guess. And you worked with 1:11:57.400 --> 1:12:00.360 Bob Yeah, yeah, I worked with him on the next 1:12:00.479 --> 1:12:04.240 King's record and then Kiss record the elder. So you 1:12:04.280 --> 1:12:07.360 were Bob's guy, one of them. Yeah, right, how did 1:12:07.400 --> 1:12:11.760 it end for you? Um? So you know, when you're 1:12:11.760 --> 1:12:15.519 working a studio, it's twenty four hours a day, seven 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:18.120 days a week, thirty days a month, right, And UM, 1:12:18.520 --> 1:12:20.880 I had treated my schooling that way. So three years 1:12:20.880 --> 1:12:25.600 of seven school, uh, probably three years seven in the 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:28.479 studio and I was about at the end of my 1:12:28.600 --> 1:12:31.559 rope and I didn't really realize it. And um, and 1:12:31.880 --> 1:12:35.479 Bob had taken for some reason, I guess with the 1:12:35.520 --> 1:12:37.960 timing of the Kings or the or the Kiss was 1:12:38.360 --> 1:12:39.640 working out the way it was supposed to be, and 1:12:39.640 --> 1:12:41.880 we had to do both records at once basically, so 1:12:41.920 --> 1:12:43.960 he had we do two weeks with Kiss, two weeks 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:46.360 with Kings too. Was Kissed Kings and it was just 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:49.880 driving me crazy. And finally, uh, um, one day Bob 1:12:49.960 --> 1:12:52.920 was really late for the studio and UM, we got 1:12:52.920 --> 1:12:55.320 tired of waiting for him because we had decided that 1:12:55.360 --> 1:12:57.519 if we had worked ahead, he might not like it, 1:12:57.680 --> 1:13:00.679 and uh, we be working for nothing and if and 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:03.160 so W do W that we decided not to decided 1:13:03.280 --> 1:13:06.719 to go out to dinner and uh, soon after we left, 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.880 he arrived and uh he was upset that we weren't there, 1:13:10.240 --> 1:13:12.599 and so we got back to the studio. He said, Okay, 1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:14.800 just because you guys have done this, we're gonna have 1:13:14.840 --> 1:13:16.280 to work the weekend. And that was gonna be the 1:13:16.280 --> 1:13:19.320 first weekend I'd had off in months. And somebody said 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:22.280 work the weekend. It literally heard of spring my brain 1:13:22.320 --> 1:13:25.920 go boing. I turned around and walked out the door. Uh. 1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:28.360 The studio was the edge of in the edge of Toronto. Um. 1:13:28.400 --> 1:13:30.720 I walked in the countryside for probably two hours. Bob 1:13:30.760 --> 1:13:32.840 and his wife and it was just getting dark. They 1:13:32.880 --> 1:13:36.200 came in looking for me. People thought I'd like jumped 1:13:36.200 --> 1:13:39.559 in the river or something, and uh uh I turned 1:13:39.560 --> 1:13:41.320 down the offer to drive me back to the studio. 1:13:41.400 --> 1:13:43.240 I got back to the studio, I went in and 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:45.559 tacked up a sign on the wall said gone fishing. 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:48.719 And a friend of mine worked for a wholesale travel agency, 1:13:48.720 --> 1:13:50.080 and I said, caled her and said get me on 1:13:50.080 --> 1:13:52.240 the beach tomorrow. So I went to the Bahamas for 1:13:52.240 --> 1:13:54.120 a couple of weeks and two or three weeks and 1:13:54.439 --> 1:13:56.920 sat of the beach, just staring at the beach. During 1:13:56.960 --> 1:14:00.280 an that was the end. No, what happened was I 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:03.120 met a Rastafarian. Uh, this is a true story. I 1:14:03.160 --> 1:14:05.960 met a Rastafarian on the beach and u and started 1:14:05.960 --> 1:14:08.200 smoking joints with him, and he said, uh, you know 1:14:08.200 --> 1:14:11.320 what your problem is. I don't want to take the accent, 1:14:11.360 --> 1:14:13.599 but he said, your problem is you've spent too much 1:14:13.720 --> 1:14:18.280 time working on your career and basically, give you've atrophied 1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:21.200 as a person, like a three legged stool. You know, 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:24.160 you've got the physical mental and uh and and and 1:14:24.200 --> 1:14:27.800 spiritual legs and a couple of have fallen are short, 1:14:27.840 --> 1:14:30.720 you've fallen over. So I thought that's a great thing. 1:14:30.800 --> 1:14:32.280 So I came back and I didn't care about my 1:14:32.320 --> 1:14:35.200 career for a while. And uh then kind of stuff 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:37.760 started to happen, and I found got the partner with 1:14:37.800 --> 1:14:40.280 that producer with the Manka. But when you came back, 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:43.400 you didn't work in the studio anymore. Did nothing for 1:14:43.439 --> 1:14:45.000 a while. And then and found my partner and we 1:14:45.040 --> 1:14:47.400 found and we started, um, you know, finding gods in 1:14:47.439 --> 1:14:50.680 the studio. But when you walked for good, they were 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:53.360 cool with that. Today the people are lining up to work. Yeah, 1:14:53.880 --> 1:14:56.360 Bob was incredibly understanding about it. I mean, you know, 1:14:56.439 --> 1:14:58.360 he knows the pressures of all that stuff, and and 1:14:58.600 --> 1:15:01.839 so you know, I I learned more about balancing myself. 1:15:01.880 --> 1:15:03.760 I think, you know, with that and and it's I 1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:05.960 think that's a good, good lesson for anybody's life. You know. 1:15:06.040 --> 1:15:09.519 So you go to work for a TV publisher, how 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:12.280 do you end up running E M my music Publishing Canada? 1:15:12.520 --> 1:15:15.040 I was so I was really lucky that. Um Uh. 1:15:15.080 --> 1:15:17.800 Shortly after I got there, um I met with one 1:15:17.840 --> 1:15:20.639 of the writers of a band called Toronto that had 1:15:20.680 --> 1:15:24.160 been signed there and at a TV Canada and it 1:15:24.200 --> 1:15:27.480 was it was the biggest outlet for Canadian talent. Um. 1:15:27.760 --> 1:15:30.600 They had Aldo Nova, they had Eddie Schwartzer wrote me 1:15:30.840 --> 1:15:33.320 Hip Hippie with your best shot. Um they had a 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:38.320 big had chili whack um a lot of success. And 1:15:38.320 --> 1:15:40.320 they had this band called Toronto that was on Solid 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:44.280 Gold Records and Neil Dixon's label, and um uh, the 1:15:44.400 --> 1:15:47.040 good Brian Allen, the guitar player me and writer called 1:15:47.080 --> 1:15:49.040 me up and he said, you know, our deal is 1:15:49.120 --> 1:15:51.160 up with you guys, and you only published the stuff 1:15:51.160 --> 1:15:52.799 that was on our records, and I have some stuff 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:54.240 that wasn't on the record. I don't know if you 1:15:54.280 --> 1:15:55.920 want to hear it? I said yeah, sure. So he 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:57.680 came in and played me a bunch of demos and 1:15:57.720 --> 1:15:59.400 one of them was a song called what About Love 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:02.200 and it was a little cassette port of studio demo 1:16:02.400 --> 1:16:04.880 and I said, wow, that's a great song. I've only 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:07.080 been on the job for about a month. I already 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:09.000 know that I can't sell that song with with that 1:16:09.040 --> 1:16:12.519 bat of a demo. And uh, then he called me 1:16:12.560 --> 1:16:15.559 a week later, so I found Uh. We actually tried 1:16:15.600 --> 1:16:17.920 to record it on the album the Jim Valence produced 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:20.640 for us, and Jim Valence co wrote it and I 1:16:20.720 --> 1:16:22.200 got left off the last minute, so I have a 1:16:22.240 --> 1:16:25.200 rough mix of the produced version one it here. I said, yeah, sure, 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:26.559 so I brought it in. It was just I thought 1:16:26.560 --> 1:16:28.960 it was a total smash. Got it to Don Gerson, 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:31.200 who was ahead of in our capitol, who wanted songs 1:16:31.200 --> 1:16:34.320 for Heart, and UM he picked it for Heart and 1:16:34.400 --> 1:16:36.599 they had a giant hit with it and basically resurrected 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:39.559 a career, and um gave me a career in music 1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:41.400 publishing because all of a sudden, now I had I 1:16:41.439 --> 1:16:43.760 scored a big goal, right And that was right before 1:16:43.760 --> 1:16:47.760 Michael Jackson bought the company. Just stop there that the 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:51.040 original rough mix. How close was that to the finished 1:16:51.080 --> 1:16:54.560 hard version? Unbelievably close. It was my first lesson in 1:16:54.600 --> 1:16:57.240 that almost every nine times out of ten, when somebody 1:16:57.479 --> 1:16:59.880 uh gets a demo and and and and cuts a 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:02.720 record of it, it's it's just like the demo. And 1:17:02.800 --> 1:17:05.320 that's a big lesson for me and publishing in some 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:08.920 song plugging is that nobody has any imagination, right, Okay, 1:17:08.920 --> 1:17:12.240 So Michael Jackson then buys the label, but he buys 1:17:12.240 --> 1:17:15.559 it to get the get the songs and fires everybody 1:17:15.600 --> 1:17:18.880 in the world. Um. And just as we're turning out 1:17:18.880 --> 1:17:21.800 the lights, I got a call from a journalist music 1:17:21.840 --> 1:17:24.479 journalist named Nick Cruen who worked for a Maga trick 1:17:24.600 --> 1:17:28.160 Natie mag trade magazine called the record David Farrell and 1:17:28.479 --> 1:17:30.760 David now has f y I music, which you've probously seen, 1:17:31.360 --> 1:17:34.360 remember the record and uh, And he had assigned Nick 1:17:34.400 --> 1:17:36.320 the job of trying to get somebody in a TV 1:17:36.680 --> 1:17:39.040 to talk about the fact that everybody's losing their jobs. 1:17:39.520 --> 1:17:40.960 And he called me up and he said, you're my 1:17:41.040 --> 1:17:42.760 last chance. You're the lowest guy in the poll in 1:17:42.760 --> 1:17:45.240 the world. And I've tried to get everybody talking, nobody 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:47.880 will and so I had this vision that if I 1:17:47.920 --> 1:17:49.000 was going to go down, I might as well go 1:17:49.040 --> 1:17:51.599 down in flames. And I thought, well, I'll just be honest, 1:17:51.760 --> 1:17:54.240 and that I actually honest to God. Had a vision 1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:57.040 of a Star Trek episode where um, they were lost 1:17:57.040 --> 1:17:59.160 in space and they and they couldn't get a hold 1:17:59.160 --> 1:18:01.559 of anybody, and there was a ship passing a few 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:04.519 light years away, so to get its attention, Spock jettison 1:18:04.560 --> 1:18:06.519 to the last bit of anti matter and blew it up. 1:18:06.560 --> 1:18:08.720 In of course, the explosion caused the ship to come 1:18:08.760 --> 1:18:10.559 and find them and save them. So I thought, I'm 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:15.040 gonna create an explosion, So I I said, you know that, 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:16.880 how I talked about how important a TV had been 1:18:16.920 --> 1:18:19.479 to h to Canadian talent and getting an outlet to 1:18:19.520 --> 1:18:21.800 the world, And um, Michael Jackson was just going to 1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:24.920 mothball the whole thing. And he presents an image of 1:18:24.960 --> 1:18:27.040 being a caring religious person. He just turns out to 1:18:27.040 --> 1:18:30.040 be another ruthless muggul. So he printed it and everything 1:18:30.080 --> 1:18:32.280 and never thought anything else of it, And um went 1:18:32.320 --> 1:18:34.040 off of my were Mary Wade and I actually got 1:18:34.040 --> 1:18:37.920 a job at Attic Records, uh Elamaire's company doing A 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:41.800 and R and UM. Unbeknownst to me, this got picked 1:18:41.840 --> 1:18:43.599 up by an American wire service, and I was being 1:18:43.680 --> 1:18:46.519 quoted on radio stations and newspapers, calling Michael Jackson and 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:51.040 Ruthless Mugu and also unbeknownst to me, he was reading 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:52.760 all this should be making a commitment to all these 1:18:52.800 --> 1:18:55.360 writers and things, and and they go, okay, what do 1:18:55.400 --> 1:18:58.200 you want to do? And what Branco told me was 1:18:58.240 --> 1:19:01.240 that he said find this guy and how room. So 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:04.160 I'm working for Almayer and I get a call from 1:19:04.160 --> 1:19:07.599 the head of CBS Songs in Canada because CBS Songs 1:19:07.920 --> 1:19:10.320 had had the adminised administration of it, and he said, 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:12.120 there's an airport. There's a plane ticket at the airport 1:19:12.160 --> 1:19:14.360 for you're going to New York to talk to the 1:19:14.360 --> 1:19:17.040 head of CBS Songs. I said, okay, So I went 1:19:17.080 --> 1:19:20.320 to the airport and got it picked up by a 1:19:20.320 --> 1:19:22.639 car at Lagority and they took me to see Mike's 1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:27.080 Stewart and Harvey Shapiro iran CBS Songs and and they 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:31.439 said Michael Jackson's read your comments and then just stared 1:19:31.479 --> 1:19:33.760 at me. And I thought I was getting up with 1:19:33.760 --> 1:19:37.000 the Hudson River. And finally I just I looked up, 1:19:37.000 --> 1:19:38.680 I looked down and left right, and I just you know, 1:19:38.720 --> 1:19:41.519 it was really really awkward. And so finally Mike Stewart goes, 1:19:41.840 --> 1:19:43.439 he wants to give you a chance to put up 1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:48.320 a shut up and uh, he said, So I said okay, 1:19:48.360 --> 1:19:50.599 And he said, all right, so go back to Canada 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:54.080 and uh work for CBS songs. So that was that 1:19:54.120 --> 1:19:56.519 was the negotiation that I went back to downstairs, got 1:19:56.560 --> 1:19:58.000 in the car that was waiting for me, went back 1:19:58.000 --> 1:20:03.080 to the airport, and and what did you tell Al Mayor? Um? 1:20:03.120 --> 1:20:06.280 I don want to embarrass him, so uh, but but 1:20:06.400 --> 1:20:10.360 I'll h had actually said to me, I don't want 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:12.280 you to take this job, just waiting for a job 1:20:12.320 --> 1:20:15.240 from Major to come along, right, And and there was 1:20:16.240 --> 1:20:18.240 some things about the job that I didn't think we're 1:20:18.960 --> 1:20:22.360 as advertised and and and um, so I didn't feel 1:20:22.360 --> 1:20:25.080 so bad about it other than I did feel bad 1:20:25.120 --> 1:20:26.960 about it, but I felt like it wasn't what I 1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:30.240 thought it was gonna be. Right, And and so I said, well, 1:20:30.280 --> 1:20:31.519 you don't have to you don't have to pay me 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:35.439 for the week I've been here. And he said Okay, okay, 1:20:35.439 --> 1:20:37.960 so you gotta work for CBS. How does that morph 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:41.480 in the E M R sp K bought it? And um, 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:43.880 by this time, you know, I'm doing pretty well as 1:20:43.880 --> 1:20:46.639 a song plugger. I'm getting songs and Joe Cocker records 1:20:46.680 --> 1:20:50.120 and things like that. And uh um, I guess Marty Bander, 1:20:50.240 --> 1:20:53.680 Charles Koppelman and Steven swid were doing their due diligence 1:20:53.720 --> 1:20:56.120 on the office and they had me condend to New 1:20:56.200 --> 1:20:58.439 York and meet them, and I think I gave a 1:20:58.439 --> 1:21:02.519 pretty passionate pitch about Canadian music and and how the 1:21:03.360 --> 1:21:06.160 how the future could be and how um you know 1:21:06.200 --> 1:21:08.520 this government support and all this kind of thing, and 1:21:08.520 --> 1:21:10.720 and they so they seemed to like me, and they 1:21:10.720 --> 1:21:14.280 empowered me, and and then actually moved me to l A. 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.800 So mid eighties, UM, my wife Sam and I and 1:21:17.880 --> 1:21:20.600 my oldest, my then only child, t J packed up 1:21:20.600 --> 1:21:24.360 and moved to l A and worked for EM Despicat 1:21:24.400 --> 1:21:26.280 down here initially, and then they sold the E M. 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:29.640 I became M I and uh um. While that was 1:21:29.680 --> 1:21:32.120 down here. Um, one of the things that did was 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:35.160 he introduced me to Charles Koppleman and Marty Bander and 1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:38.519 induced me to Artie Mogul. You must know, Artie the biggest, 1:21:38.760 --> 1:21:41.880 most unforgettable character I've ever met in my life inside 1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:46.879 or outside the business. Brooklyn Street hustler, you know, gambling addiction. 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:50.599 Uh he was the Forest Gump of the music business 1:21:50.680 --> 1:21:54.160 right where almost anybody you wanted to name that was huge. 1:21:54.200 --> 1:21:56.240 He had some sort of association with them or the 1:21:56.280 --> 1:22:00.720 deal or whatever. Right And um so he said, Uh, okay, kid, 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:03.400 who do you want to meet? And I said Richard Perry, 1:22:03.640 --> 1:22:06.759 as I was fascinated by producers, and uh so he 1:22:06.520 --> 1:22:09.280 he literally picked up the phone and dialed his number 1:22:09.280 --> 1:22:13.479 from memory and Richard answered and already said Richard, already 1:22:13.600 --> 1:22:16.639 lunch the Dome tomorrow and then hung up and uh 1:22:17.120 --> 1:22:19.360 dome was right next to our offices. And uh so 1:22:19.400 --> 1:22:21.000 the next day we're walking over there, and he said, 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:23.200 we have to think of some excuse when we're meeting 1:22:23.320 --> 1:22:24.960 Richard Perry. He doesn't want to meet you're you're just 1:22:24.960 --> 1:22:27.920 a schmuck from Canada. And so he said. At this time, 1:22:27.960 --> 1:22:29.760 we was right after we had Tracy Chapman was a 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:32.519 big case of success story, and all the labels wanted 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:34.559 to have a production deal with That's b k so 1:22:34.600 --> 1:22:37.600 he said, um, we'll we'll tell him we need some 1:22:37.640 --> 1:22:40.519 acts for the production company. So we sit down and 1:22:40.640 --> 1:22:42.360 having lunch and he's telling us the different things he's 1:22:42.360 --> 1:22:44.200 working on, and none of them seemed that interesting. And 1:22:44.200 --> 1:22:47.080 then he could tell he wasn't getting a spark from us, 1:22:47.080 --> 1:22:49.280 and so he kind of like reached down into the 1:22:50.000 --> 1:22:52.439 bottom of his mental bag and said, well, it's one 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:54.519 of the things that when working on it's the Daughters 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:58.960 of Wilson of but beach boys and mamas and papas as. 1:22:59.000 --> 1:23:00.200 So as he said that, he could tell all they 1:23:00.200 --> 1:23:02.280 got a big rise from. Marty and I were looking 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:05.479 each other eyes bugging out, and so he switches in 1:23:05.560 --> 1:23:10.240 the uber sales pitch mode. So already slammed the table 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:12.800 and he said, we want them. And then the entire 1:23:12.840 --> 1:23:14.800 restaurant went silent, like you see in the movies, right, 1:23:14.800 --> 1:23:17.479 and everybody's staring at us. And I said, Alartiy shouldn't 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:21.120 listen to some music first. He said, no, we want them, 1:23:21.160 --> 1:23:23.200 and I said already, and we gotta listen to some music, 1:23:23.240 --> 1:23:25.240 and he's all right, sending over some music. So we 1:23:25.280 --> 1:23:27.160 go back to the office. An hour later, a messenger 1:23:27.320 --> 1:23:29.040 rise at the cassette. We put it in. The very 1:23:29.040 --> 1:23:31.400 first song of the cassette is hold On, and we 1:23:31.439 --> 1:23:33.040 look at each other we go, I can't believe it. 1:23:35.320 --> 1:23:38.160 So we said it to Charles Coppelman and the next 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:39.760 morning he calls from his car on the way and 1:23:39.760 --> 1:23:42.080 he said, this is amazing. I'm going to sign them. 1:23:42.200 --> 1:23:44.840 So again, we had all these output deals, right, had 1:23:44.920 --> 1:23:47.479 production deals with all the different labels, and we had 1:23:47.520 --> 1:23:49.400 to hand them. We had to pitch them certain number 1:23:49.400 --> 1:23:51.559 of acts a year. So Arty says, watch this kid, 1:23:51.560 --> 1:23:53.439 I'm gonna get the biggest record deal for a new 1:23:53.520 --> 1:23:56.200 artist the history of mankind. So we've got to go 1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:58.360 to dinner with all the heads of all the labels 1:23:58.439 --> 1:24:01.600 and and uh, and we'll Phillips and uh watched the 1:24:01.720 --> 1:24:04.040 wind up and he wound it up to six hundred 1:24:04.080 --> 1:24:08.000 fifty dollars for the first record. And then bang, SPK 1:24:08.240 --> 1:24:13.439 is sold and now it's SPK Records, and uh, Charles, 1:24:13.520 --> 1:24:16.160 I'm in already's office when day Charles called and he said, 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:18.559 I got good news and bad news. The good news 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:20.760 is we want the girls for SPK Records. The bad 1:24:20.800 --> 1:24:22.920 news is we're not paying them six hundred fifty grand 1:24:22.920 --> 1:24:25.559 and you have to tell them. He said, watch this, kid, 1:24:25.600 --> 1:24:30.280 I'm gonna wind it down. Only already could have done this, 1:24:30.720 --> 1:24:33.160 and and but what he did was promised them that 1:24:33.320 --> 1:24:36.080 SPK will stop at nothing to make the record successful. 1:24:36.080 --> 1:24:37.920 And of course that's what was the case. Now were 1:24:37.920 --> 1:24:40.360 you at the first SPK convention in the desert when 1:24:40.360 --> 1:24:47.320 they debuted? Yeah, I was there with Hysteric and Michelle Phillips, etcetera. Okay, 1:24:47.479 --> 1:24:50.240 how come Glenn Ballard ended up producing the record because 1:24:50.520 --> 1:24:54.720 um uh Richard to develop the group had brought in 1:24:54.800 --> 1:24:56.560 Glenn to do the demos, and so Glenn and co 1:24:56.720 --> 1:24:59.599 written everything and produced the demos. The demo hold On 1:24:59.760 --> 1:25:03.840 was phenomenal, you know. Okay, so it ends with an 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:07.760 E M. I. Ultimately when there's another corporate transition and 1:25:07.800 --> 1:25:10.080 then you go to work for only and now you're 1:25:10.080 --> 1:25:12.599 so kept. Who are you? Are you as a drummer, 1:25:12.800 --> 1:25:18.040 a recording engineer, a publisher, a guy on performing end 1:25:18.040 --> 1:25:20.760 of it performance rights. I'm a guy who was a 1:25:21.040 --> 1:25:23.320 whole career was in search of the secret of making 1:25:23.320 --> 1:25:25.679 a magic record, and one day I found I figured 1:25:25.720 --> 1:25:28.880 it out and it wasn't um anything. The technology was 1:25:28.960 --> 1:25:32.559 doing it wasn't anything about guiding the performance. It was 1:25:32.600 --> 1:25:35.400 about what they were singing. It was the song that's 1:25:35.520 --> 1:25:38.559 secret to making a magic record. And so I'm a 1:25:38.560 --> 1:25:42.680 song person and I had a incredibly fortunate to to 1:25:42.880 --> 1:25:46.160 exercise that love of song and songwriting as a publisher, 1:25:46.200 --> 1:25:48.519 and now I'm doing that as a as a you know, 1:25:49.080 --> 1:25:53.320 chief membership officer at so can UM. We're protecting writers, 1:25:53.360 --> 1:25:57.840 protecting their rights, getting them paid, We're stimulating their creativity. 1:25:58.200 --> 1:26:00.840 It's all the stuff that i've i've already has ever done. Okay, 1:26:00.920 --> 1:26:04.599 are you as excited about music today as you were 1:26:04.640 --> 1:26:07.400 back then? Yeah? I think I think that, Like I 1:26:07.400 --> 1:26:09.559 said earlier, I think every generation picks up the tools 1:26:09.560 --> 1:26:11.559 of a generation and starts making music. But one can 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:15.280 argue that certainly in the sixties and seventies music drove 1:26:15.320 --> 1:26:18.000 the culture. There was music and radio. Certainly, for the 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:22.040 last twenty five years there's been technology, and as big 1:26:22.080 --> 1:26:25.200 as music is, I will argue that technology drove the culture. 1:26:25.880 --> 1:26:29.320 What is music's place going forward? Well, you know, you know, 1:26:29.360 --> 1:26:32.160 of course, I've I've seen you. You're right that a lot, 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:34.200 and I agree to a large degree. Although, by the 1:26:34.200 --> 1:26:36.080 way I said to Dug the engineer. When I came 1:26:36.080 --> 1:26:37.800 here today, I feel like I'm in the Abbey Road 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:41.880 of podcasting because you know, to me, this is not 1:26:41.960 --> 1:26:44.439 about me, this is about you, because I'm so inspired 1:26:44.439 --> 1:26:46.599 by everything you're right, and and I listened to every 1:26:46.600 --> 1:26:54.559 one of your podcasts. But okay, okay, but um, you know, yes, 1:26:54.600 --> 1:26:57.200 I think that more kids grow up today idolizing tech 1:26:57.320 --> 1:27:01.160 entrepreneurs and want to be an tech entrepreneur. Probably then idolize, 1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:03.720 you know, so called rock stars and want to be 1:27:03.840 --> 1:27:06.720 so called rock stars. But I also think that you know, 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:12.120 the historically, the people of our generation, uh and and 1:27:12.400 --> 1:27:15.120 the music that we're we're into. It's easy for us 1:27:15.200 --> 1:27:17.679 to say that music is not driving the culture anymore. 1:27:17.760 --> 1:27:19.880 But I don't know if you could say that if 1:27:19.880 --> 1:27:22.519 you're a hip hop fan, you know, and if you know, 1:27:22.720 --> 1:27:25.479 I would say, with hip hop, and this is not 1:27:25.520 --> 1:27:28.360 only about hip hop. To the people it's important to 1:27:28.640 --> 1:27:32.760 it's huge. But prior to the last fifteen years, last 1:27:32.760 --> 1:27:36.520 ten years, if you were as big as Drake, everybody 1:27:36.520 --> 1:27:38.559 in America knew Year's songs. This is not a reflection 1:27:38.600 --> 1:27:41.240 on Drake. It's just a reflection on society. And it's 1:27:41.240 --> 1:27:43.960 not only music, it's hard to get that level of 1:27:44.000 --> 1:27:47.080 mind share, and I don't believe the business is adjusted. 1:27:47.479 --> 1:27:49.919 And what I also believe is the result of that. However, 1:27:50.439 --> 1:27:53.400 much of the mind share of music hip hop gets. 1:27:54.439 --> 1:27:56.880 The press and the major labels are focusing only on 1:27:56.920 --> 1:27:59.280 that as if it were the last century, when all 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:02.280 these other things who that may never graduate to that 1:28:02.400 --> 1:28:05.960 level have a greater impact, impact or more self sustaining 1:28:06.000 --> 1:28:08.200 than ever. No, I don't disagree with that. I mean, 1:28:08.240 --> 1:28:10.479 the amount of noise out there is incredible and and 1:28:10.520 --> 1:28:12.360 as you say, if you're inside the bubble, you think 1:28:12.400 --> 1:28:14.920 that something everybody knows about something and they and they 1:28:14.960 --> 1:28:17.519 don't really right. But in terms of the influence, mean, 1:28:17.520 --> 1:28:20.680 look at the influence of hip hop's head on fashion. Absolutely, 1:28:20.680 --> 1:28:22.640 but it's a language, yeah, but a little long in 1:28:22.680 --> 1:28:26.479 the tooth, yeah, for sure. You look at the opinion 1:28:26.520 --> 1:28:28.120 of always swings and that there's going to be something 1:28:28.160 --> 1:28:31.760 that that that replaces the So the interesting thing is twofold. 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:34.640 We we lived through so many ears. Let's just call 1:28:34.640 --> 1:28:37.000 it the MTV era, and it was to a degree 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:40.400 driven by MTV, where they promote one thing and then 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:43.080 that would be over. The sound would change completely and 1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:46.000 certainly since the beginning of the century, the sound has 1:28:46.040 --> 1:28:49.599 been hip hop. Okay, not that it hasn't evolved. So 1:28:49.720 --> 1:28:52.200 for those of us who lived through the previous decades, 1:28:52.960 --> 1:28:55.960 we constantly expected something to else to come along, and 1:28:56.000 --> 1:28:59.280 it has not happened. Not granted, hip hop embrace the 1:28:59.280 --> 1:29:01.840 Internet long but for every other genre, if the other 1:29:01.840 --> 1:29:05.040 genres have, you've been embraced there. But speaking of hip hop, 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:08.400 one thing you've maintained, and we've talked a lot about, 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:12.360 is you believe with songwritings. Yesen's but you also believe 1:29:12.400 --> 1:29:16.320 it's about collaboration. Okay, and certainly that's what hip hop is. 1:29:16.600 --> 1:29:19.960 Why don't you tell my audience your beliefs about collaboration. Well, 1:29:20.000 --> 1:29:23.080 I always I always write your nasty note every time 1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:26.920 you should on collaboration. Uh, you know the the the 1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:30.920 knock on collaboration is it's committee songwriting, right. Well, that well, 1:29:31.280 --> 1:29:32.920 it's one thing to have too songwriters, the other thing 1:29:32.960 --> 1:29:36.479 to have nineteen Yeah. Well, look that that could be overboard. 1:29:36.479 --> 1:29:39.120 But often sometimes that's because there's there's samples in corporate 1:29:39.240 --> 1:29:42.080 and I'm talking about how many people are in the room. Well, 1:29:42.360 --> 1:29:44.800 like I think about this a lot and for one thing, 1:29:45.240 --> 1:29:47.320 and maybe they go overboard. Now. I mean, there's a 1:29:47.360 --> 1:29:49.120 joke that people say, if you deliver pizza to the 1:29:49.120 --> 1:29:52.559 session and you get to UM. But on the other hand, 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:56.560 if you take the Motown era, right, which you know, 1:29:57.000 --> 1:30:00.679 my one of my mentors, but Marty Bander, used to say, 1:30:01.160 --> 1:30:04.320 arguably was the greatest era, uh you know, or the 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:08.040 greatest the most successful UM creative music scene in history. 1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:10.960 And there's a lot to be said about that. Um. 1:30:11.000 --> 1:30:13.920 You know, you had great records where UM would ended 1:30:14.000 --> 1:30:15.800 up being the biggest hook in the record was a 1:30:15.840 --> 1:30:17.800 guitar part that the guitar player made up in the 1:30:17.800 --> 1:30:20.479 studio as they're recording it. And a lot of times 1:30:20.479 --> 1:30:23.160 they never got in your writing credit, right, So you know, 1:30:23.200 --> 1:30:25.120 maybe the pendulum was too far that way. Maybe it's 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:26.600 gone too far the other way. But at least there 1:30:26.640 --> 1:30:29.720 are people are being inclusive as to people, you know, 1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:34.320 who's important in the making of the record. UM. But 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:36.680 I will I will stop there though. But the differences, 1:30:37.000 --> 1:30:40.920 especially those records, they were essentially cut live, whereas today 1:30:41.160 --> 1:30:43.080 many of the hit records are. We worked and we 1:30:43.160 --> 1:30:46.000 worked every other people polishing it to try to make 1:30:46.040 --> 1:30:48.920 it a hit record. Well, I think that, Well, look, 1:30:48.960 --> 1:30:51.320 who knows what goes through the minds of everybody when 1:30:51.360 --> 1:30:54.320 they're doing this. I think it's there's always the gamut 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:57.320 from people sitting down to make a hit record for 1:30:57.400 --> 1:30:58.960 all the way from that to people are sitting down 1:30:59.000 --> 1:31:01.000 to make great music and it happens to be a hit. 1:31:01.080 --> 1:31:03.840 So whichever way, I think that people are just trying 1:31:03.840 --> 1:31:06.200 to have be great, and they're trying to make great music, 1:31:06.200 --> 1:31:07.320 and they're trying to make a lot of money at 1:31:07.320 --> 1:31:11.599 the same time. Um, most great music, to me has 1:31:11.640 --> 1:31:14.120 been the result of collaboration of one sort of another, 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:16.479 whether it's co writing or not writing. Look The Who, 1:31:16.520 --> 1:31:19.560 for instance, probably a great example, right. I can't imagine 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:22.959 Pete Townsend having a successful career as a singer songwriter 1:31:23.040 --> 1:31:25.840 if he hadn't been in The Who. Can't imagine Roger 1:31:25.920 --> 1:31:28.519 Dalter having a successful career as an artist if he 1:31:28.560 --> 1:31:31.479 wasn't in The Who. And back in those days, um, 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:33.720 the first rung in the ladder was so high that 1:31:33.800 --> 1:31:35.760 you couldn't get to it. You had to try to 1:31:36.080 --> 1:31:38.599 scheme how to get to that first rung. And so 1:31:38.760 --> 1:31:41.040 you know, the visual metaphor would be well, one of 1:31:41.320 --> 1:31:43.560 this group of people get down in all fours and 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:46.120 I'm gonna stand on their back, and then somebody can 1:31:46.160 --> 1:31:48.559 stand on my shoulders and they can grab the first rung. 1:31:49.000 --> 1:31:52.800 And so they coalesced into self organized groups of people 1:31:52.840 --> 1:31:54.720 to make something that was better than any one of 1:31:54.720 --> 1:31:56.800 them could do. The whole was great than some of 1:31:56.840 --> 1:31:59.720 the parts. And that's what I think all collaborations are. So, 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:02.960 whether so whether it's songwriting, whether it's uh, you know, okay, 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:05.559 well we haven't discussed it quite this deep before, or 1:32:05.560 --> 1:32:08.559 maybe I haven't gotten it, And I certainly agree with 1:32:08.600 --> 1:32:13.439 that overall philosophy. Let's just say the song now, let's 1:32:14.000 --> 1:32:16.400 of course the point being was the lick part of 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:19.439 the song? Whatever? But literally, as a publisher, I guess 1:32:19.439 --> 1:32:21.439 they're coming in with demonos. They come in with a song. 1:32:22.200 --> 1:32:25.599 Do you believe that there are multiple people in the room, 1:32:25.680 --> 1:32:28.800 let's just say even two or three, it's better than 1:32:28.840 --> 1:32:31.760 having one. Well, if it's the right dynamic, sure, you 1:32:31.760 --> 1:32:33.719 know you have you can't have somebody who's a bullying 1:32:33.800 --> 1:32:35.000 you can't have. You have to have. There has to 1:32:35.040 --> 1:32:37.360 be an OD tour, has to be an O tour. 1:32:37.360 --> 1:32:39.639 And then whether that's the artist themselves, which in case, 1:32:39.720 --> 1:32:41.519 in the case of most of these people were talking about, 1:32:41.520 --> 1:32:45.440 I think it's the artist that's the tour who's you know, um, 1:32:45.439 --> 1:32:48.080 But somebody has to be the creative brain. It's like 1:32:48.120 --> 1:32:50.680 a movie that movies have hundreds of people working on them, 1:32:50.840 --> 1:32:52.599 but you will go to see a Quentin Tarantino movie, 1:32:52.600 --> 1:32:54.240 you know whose movie it is, even though he's got 1:32:54.280 --> 1:32:56.760 a several hundred people working in the movie. Right. So 1:32:56.800 --> 1:32:58.800 I think the most all the great music out there 1:32:58.840 --> 1:33:02.240 has that person. And they're and if they're if they're 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:04.799 doing their job right, they're bringing in ideas from everybody, 1:33:04.840 --> 1:33:07.360 and they're they're rejecting the shitty ones and they're accepting 1:33:07.360 --> 1:33:08.880 the great ones, or you're they're rejecting the ones that 1:33:08.920 --> 1:33:11.559 will fit their vision and they're and they're accepting the 1:33:11.560 --> 1:33:14.120 great ones. And uh um. So how could you have 1:33:14.160 --> 1:33:16.080 too many good ideas? I don't think you can. And 1:33:16.120 --> 1:33:19.760 I think it takes it's very very, very very rare. 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:22.639 You have one human being who has enough great ideas 1:33:23.080 --> 1:33:26.679 and is a good enough I meanipulating all the elements 1:33:26.680 --> 1:33:29.799 of music themselves and can sing or wrap it themselves. 1:33:29.920 --> 1:33:32.160 How many human beings in the face of the earth. 1:33:32.200 --> 1:33:33.759 Are that good? They can do it all by themself, 1:33:33.800 --> 1:33:37.519 not not not many prints Todd Roun, Grant, etcetera. Okay, 1:33:37.680 --> 1:33:41.400 so here you are, You've had a storied career. What's 1:33:41.439 --> 1:33:45.160 your personal dream and your time left? I'm talking about 1:33:45.160 --> 1:33:50.840 business ones which may INTERESTCT with personal Um, yeah, that's 1:33:50.840 --> 1:33:53.479 a good question. UM, I just want to keep doing. 1:33:53.520 --> 1:33:57.280 What I'm doing was just to help inspire, help um 1:33:57.640 --> 1:34:02.320 protect uh and songwriters and and and have create environments 1:34:02.320 --> 1:34:05.559 where they can succeed. And I think, UM, I want 1:34:05.560 --> 1:34:07.479 to see so Can continue with the path it is, 1:34:07.760 --> 1:34:10.559 which is becoming a globally competitive p r oh because 1:34:11.040 --> 1:34:12.800 in the world, that's you know, going back to why 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:14.160 did I go to so canus? Because I wanted to 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:17.519 see it become globally competitive, because um, all the new 1:34:17.560 --> 1:34:19.720 licensees are the most powerful companies in the history of 1:34:19.720 --> 1:34:23.200 the world. And UM, sooner or later you're gonna get 1:34:23.200 --> 1:34:25.120 completely lost and nobody will talk to you if you're 1:34:25.120 --> 1:34:27.960 not of a certain size, not a certain body of 1:34:27.960 --> 1:34:31.599 repertoire that they need certain capability with the back office. 1:34:31.960 --> 1:34:33.720 So so Can's on that path, and I want to 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:36.439 help it continue in that path. Um and UH. I 1:34:36.479 --> 1:34:38.679 just want to, you know, as I said, help people 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:41.000 make get from pointing to point B. And I've always 1:34:41.000 --> 1:34:43.880 been most interested in working with people who had nothing 1:34:43.920 --> 1:34:47.160 going on career wise and helping them have a career. 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:49.519 That I was interested in in finding people who had 1:34:49.520 --> 1:34:51.040 a career going on and helping them get to the 1:34:51.040 --> 1:34:53.200 next level. It's it's okay, who was someone you worked 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:57.160 with well, you thought had it didn't make it? Um 1:34:57.479 --> 1:35:00.360 multiple depends on the definition that didn't make it was 1:35:00.439 --> 1:35:03.040 not did not turn out to be financially successful, have 1:35:03.080 --> 1:35:06.040 a sustained career, and the people paying attention didn't know 1:35:06.040 --> 1:35:10.720 who they were, um I was My answer is going 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:14.200 to be not um not as dire straits as you're 1:35:14.240 --> 1:35:17.719 just described, but somebody who didn't get their due commercially 1:35:17.720 --> 1:35:21.920 would be a stero um. Those of you that that 1:35:22.000 --> 1:35:24.000 have I ever heard of her, No, how incredibly talented 1:35:24.040 --> 1:35:25.840 she is and she still still works in the business, 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:28.360 and she's a great person and has um um you know, 1:35:28.360 --> 1:35:30.280 a lot of good stuff going on, but she should 1:35:30.280 --> 1:35:33.600 have been a super duperstar and uh um uh. And 1:35:33.640 --> 1:35:34.920 I think that's just one of the things. But the 1:35:35.240 --> 1:35:39.000 gods didn't let it happen. Her her original collaborator, DC 1:35:39.080 --> 1:35:42.640 McKinney has gone on to become uh one of the 1:35:42.640 --> 1:35:46.040 most important influential, you know, producers in the in the world. 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:48.040 And he was a big part of the Weekend. Uh 1:35:48.280 --> 1:35:50.920 sound when the Weekend came out. Um, but she's just 1:35:51.000 --> 1:35:54.439 mega talented. Um. Look, I don't I don't know. Uh. 1:35:54.600 --> 1:35:57.000 Even though I've had a career where, you know, my 1:35:57.080 --> 1:35:59.639 job was the green light things, I really honestly don't 1:35:59.680 --> 1:36:02.040 really know how why some things work and why they 1:36:02.080 --> 1:36:05.000 don't right. Uh, I'm fascinated by it, like I always studied, 1:36:05.040 --> 1:36:07.439 tried to study green light stories and other industries to 1:36:07.439 --> 1:36:09.880 try and apply it to me, you know. But I mean, 1:36:10.320 --> 1:36:12.080 I think the two greatest green light stories in the 1:36:12.120 --> 1:36:14.320 history of the entertainment business for George Martin signing the 1:36:14.320 --> 1:36:18.040 Beatles and UH twenty century Fox Ellen Ladd Jr. Or 1:36:18.080 --> 1:36:21.400 Giving the green light to Star Wars, and they're both 1:36:22.040 --> 1:36:25.120 followed the exact same thing, which is they just had 1:36:25.120 --> 1:36:26.960 a gut feeling about the people and standing in front 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:31.040 of them, and there was no science, no math, no data, um, 1:36:31.200 --> 1:36:35.559 no thinking, just uh. In the case of of Star Wars, 1:36:35.600 --> 1:36:40.240 alliad Jr. Uh after um um George Lucas has been 1:36:40.240 --> 1:36:43.439 turned down by every movie studio. And after he presented 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:47.160 his treatment and his pitch to Ellen Jr. Ellen Jr. Said, Uh, 1:36:47.479 --> 1:36:49.280 I haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about, 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:51.519 but you're the guy who made her made American graffiti 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:53.880 and that's good enough for me. And I was lucky 1:36:53.960 --> 1:36:56.519 enough to meet George Martin a number of years before 1:36:56.520 --> 1:36:58.799 he died, and I asked him about, you know, the Beatles, 1:36:58.800 --> 1:37:00.800 and I said, look, I've read every single thing you've 1:37:00.840 --> 1:37:03.160 ever written, every interview you've ever done, but I gotta know, 1:37:03.439 --> 1:37:05.160 standing in front of you, what was going on in 1:37:05.200 --> 1:37:07.160 your in your head, your heart, and your gut. And 1:37:07.200 --> 1:37:12.599 you made that decision. And he said, uh, there's three things. Three. 1:37:12.600 --> 1:37:14.960 He had three reactions. His first reaction was that he 1:37:15.000 --> 1:37:17.800 thought they were pretty crappy band. His second reaction was 1:37:17.840 --> 1:37:20.240 there's no evidence they could write songs. But a third 1:37:20.240 --> 1:37:22.760 reaction was when they walked in the room together, they 1:37:22.760 --> 1:37:25.360 had so much overwhelming charisma that he felt like they 1:37:25.439 --> 1:37:29.040 changed the molecules in the room, right, And um, I 1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:31.080 think that's you know, that's sort of what it's about. 1:37:31.120 --> 1:37:33.559 And uh, that's a that's a fun part about what 1:37:33.600 --> 1:37:35.080 we do too is that you just never really know. 1:37:35.160 --> 1:37:38.480 And okay, who you most proud of being a midwife 1:37:38.560 --> 1:37:41.680 to success of Um, there'd be several some forty one 1:37:41.720 --> 1:37:45.439 would be one of them. Um uh we again in 1:37:45.479 --> 1:37:47.240 my publishing. We signed them when they were still in 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:51.200 high school and they they were brought to our attention 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:53.880 by getting Mark, guy named Marx Costanzo, who was from 1:37:53.880 --> 1:37:55.960 a group called Len and they had a hit with 1:37:56.000 --> 1:37:59.559 still My Sunshine Love that record. In fact, Mark would 1:37:59.600 --> 1:38:02.040 be another one because Mark was Lynn was a group 1:38:02.080 --> 1:38:05.080 that uh um, they had a um it was a 1:38:05.080 --> 1:38:07.439 brother and sister market Sharon and and and the number 1:38:07.479 --> 1:38:09.600 of other people, and they had this reputation but I 1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:12.240 didn't know they had a reputation of being impossible to 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:14.720 deal with. And in fact, when I just when I 1:38:14.720 --> 1:38:16.759 signed them, I got calls from all the record people 1:38:16.760 --> 1:38:19.240 in Toronto who said, we heard you just signed Lynn. 1:38:19.280 --> 1:38:21.360 And he said, yeah, why and they said I kicked 1:38:21.360 --> 1:38:24.200 that guy out of my office, you know, and uh 1:38:24.320 --> 1:38:26.519 so to deal with them and then to help nurture 1:38:26.600 --> 1:38:29.000 that through um, okay, talk him. They could never follow 1:38:29.000 --> 1:38:32.040 that up. Uh it's lightning, you know how many how 1:38:32.640 --> 1:38:35.719 hit by lightning. I mean, uh, and where are they today, 1:38:35.760 --> 1:38:38.519 the brother and sister. Um, Well, Mark still is in 1:38:38.560 --> 1:38:40.320 the business and he's it spends a lot of time 1:38:40.320 --> 1:38:43.000 in Nashville developing a creative scene around him and down there. 1:38:43.000 --> 1:38:45.639 I'm sure he's going to break through with it very soon. Um. Still, 1:38:45.720 --> 1:38:48.640 my sunshine had half a dozen unbelievable sinks in the 1:38:48.720 --> 1:38:50.680 last couple of years. Uh, so I think he's doing 1:38:50.680 --> 1:38:53.160 pretty well off of it. Um. But some forty one 1:38:53.200 --> 1:38:55.679 was cool because so he kept saying to us, there's 1:38:55.720 --> 1:38:59.000 this group that his friend Greg Norri had befriended, and 1:38:59.040 --> 1:39:00.880 we got to hear them. When we say, okay, how 1:39:00.880 --> 1:39:02.439 do we hear them? Well, they don't play any gigs 1:39:02.520 --> 1:39:05.439 during Stone High School. Well did you have a demo? No, 1:39:05.560 --> 1:39:07.720 and have a demo. So, after a lot of back 1:39:07.720 --> 1:39:09.720 and forth, we dectarted to go to their basement in 1:39:09.920 --> 1:39:13.160 a suburb of Rontical a Jackson and Derek Wilby's basement 1:39:13.240 --> 1:39:15.400 and uh we went down and heard them played two 1:39:15.479 --> 1:39:17.479 or three songs and we said, this is amazing, you're 1:39:17.520 --> 1:39:21.519 signed and um. And then what happened was Greg Norri, 1:39:21.600 --> 1:39:23.800 who was from a band called Trouble Chargers was the 1:39:23.840 --> 1:39:27.479 connections between Mark and the band. Uh. Greg thought he 1:39:27.520 --> 1:39:30.559 was the manager and he came back off the road 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:35.280 and found his band now had a publishing deal and 1:39:34.760 --> 1:39:37.240 um and uh he and Mark had a bit of 1:39:37.280 --> 1:39:39.000 an argument about it. So Mark left the scene. And 1:39:39.040 --> 1:39:41.920 then so we strategized with Greg what to do. We said, well, 1:39:41.920 --> 1:39:44.320 since they never really played any gigs, they need to 1:39:44.320 --> 1:39:46.200 play gigs in order to play gigs. Didn't meet an 1:39:46.240 --> 1:39:48.439 independent record, so let's make an independent record. So they 1:39:48.479 --> 1:39:51.000 got some factor money, one of support systems. We put 1:39:51.000 --> 1:39:54.280 in some money, made a record and which we liked 1:39:54.320 --> 1:39:56.200 it so much we decided to change the strategy a 1:39:56.360 --> 1:39:58.439 right to the shop a record deal for them, and 1:39:58.560 --> 1:40:01.320 everybody in North America turned them down except for an 1:40:01.360 --> 1:40:04.960 independent label from Montreal called Aquarius Records. They didn't want 1:40:04.960 --> 1:40:07.080 to sign to Aquarius for the world, so they kept 1:40:07.120 --> 1:40:09.559 that interested in the back pocket. And then we kind 1:40:09.560 --> 1:40:11.479 of just stumbled along for a long time, and we 1:40:11.560 --> 1:40:14.559 got all got really dejected, and finally the band came 1:40:14.600 --> 1:40:16.000 to us and said, we think we know what the 1:40:16.040 --> 1:40:18.120 problem is, and we said, what's the problem. They said, 1:40:18.880 --> 1:40:20.680 everybody just listens to our demo and they think we 1:40:20.720 --> 1:40:23.439 sound like Link one Nity two. They don't understand what 1:40:23.560 --> 1:40:26.240 characters we are, so we have to present that dimension. 1:40:26.760 --> 1:40:28.519 That's pretty smart. What do you want to do about that? 1:40:28.560 --> 1:40:31.000 While we want to make an independent ePK. And they 1:40:31.080 --> 1:40:35.200 used to uh yeah, they were the kind of kids 1:40:35.200 --> 1:40:37.000 that had at those days of camcorders. They had a 1:40:37.000 --> 1:40:40.040 camcorder welded to their forehead wherever they went. They made 1:40:40.040 --> 1:40:42.360 all this footage we would now called jackass type footage, 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:44.439 but it didn't exist in and and these guys would 1:40:44.439 --> 1:40:47.679 have been monsters on YouTube if if it had existed 1:40:47.720 --> 1:40:49.880 them And so anyway, they took all that jackass type 1:40:49.880 --> 1:40:52.479 footage they added together in a seven minute masterpiece that 1:40:52.600 --> 1:40:54.519 was to this day probably the funniest thing I've ever 1:40:54.520 --> 1:40:56.479 seen in my entire life. So we got that to 1:40:56.479 --> 1:40:59.720 the labels and everybody changed turned around because of the 1:40:59.720 --> 1:41:02.360 rest in the band. They now understood that their characters. 1:41:02.680 --> 1:41:06.360 Remember one time, Lee Lust and our guy from Electro 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:09.760 came today. So he was a great guy. So he 1:41:09.800 --> 1:41:11.240 came to Toronto. He was the first day and our 1:41:11.280 --> 1:41:13.479 guy that flew to the Toronto just to meet the band. 1:41:13.479 --> 1:41:15.200 And so I told them, I said, listen, guys, where 1:41:15.280 --> 1:41:17.840 this guy's coming in. We're gonna go to dinner selfishly. 1:41:17.840 --> 1:41:20.719 It's going to be near my house. It's an Italian restaurant. 1:41:20.720 --> 1:41:22.800 It's a little bit she she and I was just 1:41:22.880 --> 1:41:25.040 kind of beating around the bush and then they go, 1:41:25.240 --> 1:41:27.240 you mean you want us to not dress like slobs? 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:29.680 And said, well, yeah, if you could, no problem. So 1:41:29.720 --> 1:41:31.920 the next day I picked Lee up the airport. We 1:41:31.960 --> 1:41:34.439 go to this restaurant, Italian restaurant, my neighborhood, and we're 1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:36.400 waiting and waiting, waiting and finding the band shows up. 1:41:36.439 --> 1:41:37.880 You could tell they showed up because it was a 1:41:37.880 --> 1:41:40.160 commotion at the front door. And they had gone to 1:41:40.200 --> 1:41:42.760 the good Will store and bought these like mafia don 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:46.360 junior suits, pinstriped suits and that trench coats. And they 1:41:46.400 --> 1:41:49.200 walk into this Italian restaurant that dressed like mafia dons 1:41:49.520 --> 1:41:52.200 with the trench coats hanging off their shoulders, and the 1:41:52.720 --> 1:41:54.760 everybody in the restaurant just stopped what they're doing to 1:41:54.840 --> 1:41:57.639 stare at them. They and there was a big commotion. 1:41:57.760 --> 1:42:00.240 Then the maitre d like took their jackets and them 1:42:00.320 --> 1:42:02.000 up and they sit down and then what do they do. 1:42:02.040 --> 1:42:04.240 They reached into their suit jackets and they pull out 1:42:04.320 --> 1:42:07.640 toy gun and put them on the table and the 1:42:07.640 --> 1:42:11.360 waiter almost dropped entirely a tray of drinks. It was 1:42:11.400 --> 1:42:12.800 the funniest thing I've ever seen, you know. And that's 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:15.519 the kind of guys that that was pretty satisfying to see. 1:42:15.560 --> 1:42:17.599 That happened in the lens thing. And in three days, Grace, 1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:20.479 I suppose would be another one because they learned how 1:42:20.479 --> 1:42:23.400 to write songs in my office. Um. Gavin Brown was 1:42:23.439 --> 1:42:25.840 the writer producer that I had signed, and uh, we 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:27.599 had a new studio that we built in the office 1:42:27.640 --> 1:42:29.599 and he said, like, found this band, there's nothing worth 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:31.600 listening to him, I want to take them in to 1:42:31.640 --> 1:42:33.200 see what we come up with. That said okay, sure, 1:42:33.280 --> 1:42:35.120 So it took him in the studio and they had 1:42:35.120 --> 1:42:36.559 they had like a sound and a vibe, but they 1:42:36.560 --> 1:42:38.800 didn't really have a you know, great strong songs. And 1:42:38.840 --> 1:42:41.560 so every day they would emerge from the studio that 1:42:41.640 --> 1:42:43.320 come my office, play me the songs and I said 1:42:43.439 --> 1:42:45.880 it's okay, And they looked dejected. And they go back 1:42:45.880 --> 1:42:47.240 in the room with Gavin the next day and you 1:42:47.240 --> 1:42:48.880 can see the look in Gavin's face that he was 1:42:48.920 --> 1:42:51.120 trying to tell them they weren't ready yet either, And 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:53.599 eventually it came in with something that was really good, 1:42:53.640 --> 1:42:55.720 and I said, wow, that chorus is amazing, and they 1:42:55.720 --> 1:42:57.880 started high fiving each other and I said it'd be 1:42:57.880 --> 1:43:00.000 good enough to be a verse and they said, well, 1:43:00.000 --> 1:43:01.680 what do you mean. I said, well, it's good enough 1:43:01.720 --> 1:43:03.320 to be a verse. Now you gotta write a great 1:43:03.360 --> 1:43:05.960 chorus that's even better than that. And they said it 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:10.360 has to be that good and I said yeah, and Bob, 1:43:10.720 --> 1:43:13.360 I'll never ever forget this. You could see the lightning 1:43:13.360 --> 1:43:16.160 bolts go from between person to person, and from their 1:43:16.200 --> 1:43:18.919 eyes you could just feel the energy in the room 1:43:18.960 --> 1:43:22.920 that the switch had been flipped. The next day they 1:43:22.920 --> 1:43:24.640 went in the studio with Gavin and they wrote I 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:26.519 Hate Everything about You, which is the deal that got 1:43:26.560 --> 1:43:28.400 them the record deal song and got them the record deal, 1:43:28.640 --> 1:43:31.080 made their career happen to this day. They just they 1:43:31.120 --> 1:43:33.439 broke last year. They broke the record of Val van 1:43:33.520 --> 1:43:36.759 Halen had I think fourteen number one rock records in America. 1:43:36.800 --> 1:43:39.880 They got sixteen now and it's all driven by the 1:43:39.880 --> 1:43:43.839 song because they got the whole songwriting thing right. Michael 1:43:43.840 --> 1:43:47.120 has has been wonderful. We got great insight into Canada 1:43:47.200 --> 1:43:50.759 your career. They more the plum, but for now we're done. Alright, 1:43:50.760 --> 1:44:00.080 well thanks, okay, until next time. This is Bob s