Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes,
Speaker 1: the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into
Speaker 1: segments and topics that originally aired on The Daily Show.
Speaker 1: This is the best way to explain this podcast. Okay, Look,
Speaker 1: the Daily Show is the club. You're already in the club.
Speaker 1: You got in the club. But this podcast is the
Speaker 1: VIP section. Members only. You get a chair, you get
Speaker 1: a bottle with a sparkler coming out of it, You
Speaker 1: get yourself a little bit of a Norduv, you get
Speaker 1: your own personal bouncer, and inside that VIP area, we
Speaker 1: give you a deeper scoop on all of your favorite episodes. Today,
Speaker 1: we are talking about a topic that Trevor covered earlier
Speaker 1: this year when former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores
Speaker 1: sued the NFL after being on the receiving end of
Speaker 1: What he accused is the Dolphins have been discriminatory hiring practices.
Speaker 1: Give it a clip.
Speaker 2: For a long time, blackhead coaches in the NFL were
Speaker 2: just not a thing.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: In fact, between nineteen twenty six and nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 2: there were zero black coaches, nada.
Speaker 3: Yeah, during that sixty.
Speaker 2: Year period, it was easier to find a black person
Speaker 2: in space than coaching in the NFL. And finally, in
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, Johnny Cochrane, yes, the OJ guy.
Speaker 2: I guess he was rarely into football. He threatened to
Speaker 2: sue the league if it didn't get its act together,
Speaker 2: and so the NFL created something called the Rooney Rule,
Speaker 2: which said that at any time that there is an
Speaker 2: opening for a new coach, at least one minority candidate
Speaker 2: has to be interviewed for the job. Which is cool,
Speaker 2: but now Brian Flores is saying that these interviews he's
Speaker 2: getting they aren't real. These teams are just going through
Speaker 2: the motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule. And honestly, if
Speaker 2: you're going to make someone come to a bullshit interview,
Speaker 2: the least you can do is let them know ahead
Speaker 2: of time. Let them know this is a bullshit interview,
Speaker 2: because that way they can have some fun with it.
Speaker 2: You know, think how dopa would be to get to
Speaker 2: the interview knowing you're not going to get the job.
Speaker 2: Then you can give bullshit interviews. Oh, what would you
Speaker 2: say is your biggest weakness? I'm definitely afraid of footballs,
Speaker 2: and I also don't know what footballs is now. Look,
Speaker 2: we don't know for certain why Brian Flores didn't get
Speaker 2: these jobs, but it's clear that the Rooney Rule, despite
Speaker 2: its good intentions, has done nothing to solve the NFL's
Speaker 2: black coaching problem.
Speaker 1: All right, we are some great guests that are going
Speaker 1: to be on this show to help me dissect us
Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm here right now with CBS Morning's
Speaker 1: co host Nate Burleson. Nate, how you doing, brother.
Speaker 3: I'm good man, I'm excited to be on this podcast.
Speaker 3: And listen. I'm behind the velvet rope. I got the
Speaker 3: bottles with sparklers. This is the club. They already got
Speaker 3: in the club. Now this is the VIP So thank
Speaker 3: you for inviting me into the VIP section.
Speaker 1: You don't get too excited. I know you're drinking Top
Speaker 1: Chef vodka, but it's really slowly. It's not we switched
Speaker 1: out that great.
Speaker 3: It's water, damn.
Speaker 1: Also a little later in the program, someone else with
Speaker 1: ties to the NFL. We'll be joined by former coach
Speaker 1: for the New York Jets and the NFL's first black
Speaker 1: woman coach, collect v Smith. We'll talk with Collette a
Speaker 1: little bit later about her journey through the league and
Speaker 1: her perception of race relations. But Nate, I want to
Speaker 1: start with you. Now, you did some time over there
Speaker 1: in the league, as I understand, play a little football,
Speaker 1: put a little football, defending a little football. Now, seventy
Speaker 1: percent of the players in the NFL are black, yet
Speaker 1: they're currently only three black head coaches. There are no
Speaker 1: black owners. Shout out to Byron Allen. I know you
Speaker 1: try and you're scraping together that Weather Channel money. You're
Speaker 1: trying to buy the brocker who you know by a
Speaker 1: whole channel hot whole Weather Channel. Know they was for sale.
Speaker 1: That brother dropped down three hundred million like it wasn't shit. Facts,
Speaker 1: But can you help explained the disparity in the league,
Speaker 1: you know, Nate, between the amount of black players versus
Speaker 1: black head coaches and owners, because you don't see that
Speaker 1: in the NBA, You definitely don't see that. It's there
Speaker 1: have been and there is a legacy of black managers
Speaker 1: on a regular basis through numerous baseball teams. But in
Speaker 1: the NFL the disparity is huge. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that is?
Speaker 3: You know, it's frustrating because you know, this is one
Speaker 3: hundred years of us fighting the same fight, and I'm
Speaker 3: not exaggerating that point. You have to take this back
Speaker 3: to early nineteen twenties. If you're not familiar with the
Speaker 3: name Fritz Pollard, you should be. You just type his
Speaker 3: name in you'll learn a lot about the origins of
Speaker 3: African Americans trying to fight their way into this league
Speaker 3: and put their foots down. You know, he had like
Speaker 3: a herculean effort into opening the door. Fritz Pollard was
Speaker 3: the first African American to be a black quarterback in
Speaker 3: the league, be a black head coach in the league.
Speaker 3: This was before it was segregated. And then he went
Speaker 3: on to basically do his version of the neg League
Speaker 3: for football. If you're familiar with the Chicago Blackhawks and
Speaker 3: the Brown Bombers, and then the league reintegrated. That was
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty. Now fast forward.
Speaker 1: To this is pre twenty segregation.
Speaker 3: You feel me, you feel me. So this was nineteen
Speaker 3: twenty when it was a lot different to be a
Speaker 3: black man, not just on the football field. We're just
Speaker 3: talking about in America. So he was fighting all types
Speaker 3: of fights. And then you had the segregation, the reintegration,
Speaker 3: and then football players being dominant on the field not
Speaker 3: being allowed in the front office. But before we get
Speaker 3: to that step, we have to think about the perception
Speaker 3: of the black man in the NFL. There was a
Speaker 3: time where they didn't think a black man was confident
Speaker 3: enough to be a quarterback in this league, and they
Speaker 3: had to play every other position because we weren't smart
Speaker 3: enough in the eyes of some. We have to fight
Speaker 3: that fight, and then black players, people that were in
Speaker 3: love with this game, raised their hand and say, you
Speaker 3: know what, I believe I can coach much more than
Speaker 3: just a position. I can coach an NFL team. The
Speaker 3: reason I wanted to give all that background because as
Speaker 3: a player, I didn't even realize that when I was
Speaker 3: drafted in O three. When I was drafted in OLD three,
Speaker 3: I was just happy to be there. I'm a young
Speaker 3: twenty one year old and I'm sitting there trying to
Speaker 3: figure out how to establish myself as a pro and
Speaker 3: then have the longest lasting career I can. But it
Speaker 3: kind of reminds me of you ever seen the movie
Speaker 3: Pleasantville with Toby maguire and he's in this.
Speaker 1: New world and white, yeah, yep.
Speaker 3: And then everything made sense when the color appeared. There's
Speaker 3: a lot of parallels to that in Double Chandras, But
Speaker 3: same thing for me. I got in the league and
Speaker 3: it was black and white play as long as you
Speaker 3: can make the money. And then when I started paying
Speaker 3: attention to the quote unquote color like in the movie,
Speaker 3: it hit me. I'm looking at all of these black
Speaker 3: dudes running around putting their life on the line, and
Speaker 3: then all these black players that go into coaching positions
Speaker 3: that are assistant coaches, that are helping out that our
Speaker 3: assistance to the head coaches. But the lack of representation
Speaker 3: when it comes to head coaching jobs, it just wasn't there.
Speaker 3: And then simultaneously an O three, the Rooney Rule came
Speaker 3: and now you think, all right, cool, the Ruoney rule
Speaker 3: is here, which means, in other words, you gotta make
Speaker 3: sure you interview some candidates of color before you hire
Speaker 3: the person that you want to be your head coach.
Speaker 1: Make sure you talk to a couple of blacks, beady
Speaker 1: go hire.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I thought that this was going to be
Speaker 3: a significant change, and this would be a shift, but
Speaker 3: it wasn't. Yes, there were more African Americans being interviewed
Speaker 3: and brought into the facility, but like we saw in
Speaker 3: decades prior these owners, these gms, they were hiring who
Speaker 3: they want to hire. Now, let me be honest, I
Speaker 3: have to be transparent in this. As a guy who
Speaker 3: has owned the restaurant and launched businesses, I also understand
Speaker 3: when you own something, put your heart into something, and
Speaker 3: it's your business, whether it's financial or it's a hobby,
Speaker 3: you can't hire whoever you want. But when the representation
Speaker 3: of African Americans on the field is as large as
Speaker 3: seventy plus percent, you can't help but to be frustrated
Speaker 3: with how you see smart, smart players that are capable
Speaker 3: and then they just get rejected year after year after year.
Speaker 3: And I've known players that I played with, players that
Speaker 3: I played against that have been knocking on the doors
Speaker 3: for trying to be an head coach and just denied. So, yes,
Speaker 3: has there been changed? Of course, have we seen more
Speaker 3: head coaches? Of course, I mean how could we not.
Speaker 3: The years progress, more black coaches are hired and fired.
Speaker 3: But at the rate that we want opportunities to happen
Speaker 3: for black coaches, we have a long way to go.
Speaker 1: Okay, So then to that point, then how has the
Speaker 1: Rooney rule hurt aspiring head black coaches? Because when you
Speaker 1: look at let's just go with Kansas City. We're talking
Speaker 1: modern era NFL and the homemaker Eric b Enemy who
Speaker 1: has been an assistant to Andy Reid, and that.
Speaker 3: One of the best offenses in NFL history.
Speaker 1: Year after year after year. They've gone to two straight
Speaker 1: Super Bowls, lost when they should have won that second one.
Speaker 1: But nonetheless, if.
Speaker 3: He contributes, you got to add that he contributes the
Speaker 3: offensive game plan and play calling. He's not just a
Speaker 3: face on the sideline reading a paper.
Speaker 1: Correct. Andy Reid trusts Eric there to make these calls.
Speaker 1: Are so his name was not at the top of
Speaker 1: a lot of teams lists when it came time to
Speaker 1: look for head coaches after that second Super Bowl appearance.
Speaker 1: Do you think that the Rooney rule for someone And
Speaker 1: we're not talking specifically about a brother like Eric, but
Speaker 1: do you think he just should just how many black
Speaker 1: coaches right now? Just go man, Just let me just
Speaker 1: stay where I'm at. I'm not even gonna go out
Speaker 1: there and have y'all making me look like a fool,
Speaker 1: getting my hopes up, making me think you're gonna hire me,
Speaker 1: because how much has the Rooney rule created false hope
Speaker 1: in black camp eight? Thus, keeping them from even going
Speaker 1: in for the interview, thus forcing the team trying to
Speaker 1: meet the Rooney ruel requirements to just scrape up any
Speaker 1: neat road they can find. Au You good at Madden, Right,
Speaker 1: you want to get me the head coach, Come on
Speaker 1: in an interview real quick for the head coach. Get
Speaker 1: the hell out of here.
Speaker 3: You played two in touch resis right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Has the Rooney rule demoralized the hopes of black
Speaker 1: coaches that are qualified?
Speaker 3: You know, Roy, you make some valid points because Eric
Speaker 3: Binemy is one of those coaches. Every single season, every
Speaker 3: single offseason, I'm asking why isn't he a head coach?
Speaker 3: I can't believe it. I'm asking people that are in
Speaker 3: the business, like, what's the deal, Like, don't tell me
Speaker 3: about who he is as a person, or he's tough
Speaker 3: to get along with. Man, I've seen some jerks, I've
Speaker 3: seen some nice guys. I've seen everybody in between get hired.
Speaker 3: You're telling me one of the greatest minds that we've
Speaker 3: seen over the last decade can't land a head coaching job.
Speaker 3: When I'm seeing guys that are less qualified go there
Speaker 3: and stumble their way through a few seasons and then
Speaker 3: get fired. It's frustrating, but you're right.
Speaker 1: Though, the lions of a coach. You ne a coach
Speaker 1: before listen, not Hayton not. I'm just saying, of course,
Speaker 1: of course. Now here's the thing. You make a point
Speaker 1: about the Ruiney rule.
Speaker 3: As as we look at it, it was supposed to
Speaker 3: be something that balanced things out right. It gave us
Speaker 3: an even playing field, as we say in sports. But
Speaker 3: if I'm Eric b Enemy and I'm getting paid a
Speaker 3: decent coin, not as much as he is a head coach,
Speaker 3: I have a guy like Andy Reid, and shout out
Speaker 3: to Andy Reid, like other coaches out there who have
Speaker 3: been at the forefront of hiring men of color, even
Speaker 3: women in their organizations.
Speaker 1: Shout out, Bruce arians down to Tampa Bay. He left
Speaker 1: Tampa Bay black as hell.
Speaker 3: He ain't lying, Bruce real blue.
Speaker 1: One and Super Bowl A go he go, Todd Bowles
Speaker 1: and here you go Byron left with y'all handle this negros.
Speaker 3: Ain't lying. That's Bruce Almighty right there. Bruce is actually
Speaker 3: like skin. I don't know if you knew that, but
Speaker 3: so for for me, you look at Eric b Enemy
Speaker 3: and if he's looking at the landscape, openings. He's probably
Speaker 3: thinking to himself, I'm not going to go in there
Speaker 3: as a token. Have you looked me in my face,
Speaker 3: pat me on my back, tell me how good I've done,
Speaker 3: and then as soon as I walk away, you make
Speaker 3: a decision that we all knew you were going to make.
Speaker 3: And that's what Brian Flora said. Brian Floyd said that,
Speaker 3: you know, that's what this has become, even though he
Speaker 3: was afforded an opportunity and he felt like he was
Speaker 3: shorted in that opportunity because of a lot of things
Speaker 3: that happened in Miami. But he's saying, that's what this
Speaker 3: has become. As much as we wanted this Rooney rule
Speaker 3: to work, there are organizations that bring in an African
Speaker 3: American candidate just so they can check the box because
Speaker 3: they already have who they want in mind.
Speaker 1: What is the league done or has the league done
Speaker 1: enough in your opinion to try and punish owners for
Speaker 1: not taking the Rooney rules seriously? And if not, what
Speaker 1: are some other ways that we can hold owners accountable?
Speaker 1: Because you know, Stephen Ross, the owner of the Dolphins,
Speaker 1: he was only find one point five million dollars, you know, right,
Speaker 1: and he suspended him for a short time, you know,
Speaker 1: for trying to pay a black coach, you know, Florida
Speaker 1: to lose game. We need to lose games so we
Speaker 1: can get draft picks. And that's really more of a
Speaker 1: competition fine. In punishment, that's more of a you know,
Speaker 1: you're breaking the rules type thing. You know, it's let
Speaker 1: that punishment was rooted less and lack of diversity. But
Speaker 1: I think this is an issue that extends beyond the NFL.
Speaker 1: Bro how do you adjudicate diversity?
Speaker 3: It's tough. How do you It's like, how do you
Speaker 3: tax the wealthy? You know, how do you penalize individuals
Speaker 3: that own these teams. Some in it for the right reasons.
Speaker 3: They love football, they want their organization to go down
Speaker 3: as a dynasty. Others who own teams as hobbies. This
Speaker 3: is just another business. So you're finding an owner for
Speaker 3: not meeting the qualifications of this Rooney rule, and you
Speaker 3: tell them they can't be at the facility for a
Speaker 3: few weeks in the offseason. Then they'll go hang out
Speaker 3: and kick it on their yacht and then come back
Speaker 3: and get ready for a new season. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: there's something you can necessarily do to the owners because
Speaker 3: when you're talking about fines, I can't even quantify it.
Speaker 3: You know, if you're finding a billionaire a million dollars,
Speaker 3: is that hurting his pockets? I think we all collectively
Speaker 3: can answer that. On the flip side, I think what
Speaker 3: the league has done and can continue to do more
Speaker 3: of is highlighting the candidates and telling the stories of
Speaker 3: these candidates, because whenever a head coach was hired back
Speaker 3: when I was playing, it was like this story. Oh man,
Speaker 3: this this new young offensive mind. He comes from the
Speaker 3: tree of the West Coast offense. And here's his father
Speaker 3: who coached here, and he was part of the staff
Speaker 3: that won the Super Bowl, and they branched off to
Speaker 3: all these different and by the time this guy walks
Speaker 3: in the building, I'm like, damn, I know this dude's
Speaker 3: whole story.
Speaker 1: I'm a Fan's don't Ryan Rex Ryan exactly.
Speaker 3: We don't do that enough for these African American and
Speaker 3: candidates of color, Like, you don't even know these stories.
Speaker 3: You know, you can't. You can't tell me much about
Speaker 3: Byron Leftwich aside from the fact that he played in
Speaker 3: the league and he was a quarterback with a big arm,
Speaker 3: and now he's helping Tom Brady down in Tampa as
Speaker 3: a coach, But what's the story behind him? Like, tell
Speaker 3: his story. So I know the fans understand who loved football,
Speaker 3: but these owners need to understand. Don't just go with
Speaker 3: the higher that makes you comfortable, go with the higher
Speaker 3: that is most qualified. There's a big difference.
Speaker 1: And I think also, you know, not just going with
Speaker 1: the higher that's the most qualified, but sticking with them
Speaker 1: and giving them time to get the system and the
Speaker 1: personnel in place, which the Houston Texas didn't do. And
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about that after the taxes. We're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about the raw deal that the Houston Texas gat.
Speaker 1: You got that black coach and then you reign his ass.
Speaker 1: This is man, I'm getting upset. This is beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: Would be right back, Welcome back to Beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: We are talking football and the lack of diversity at
Speaker 1: the head coaching and the ownership front office areas with
Speaker 1: the Nate Burleson. After this break, we're also going to
Speaker 1: talk with the first black woman to be on the
Speaker 1: coaching staff of the NFL team. She is collect v Smith.
Speaker 1: But first, Nate, we've already talked about teams who's scared
Speaker 1: to hire or they have no intention of hiring a
Speaker 1: black coach. But let's talk about what happens when a
Speaker 1: black coach gets put in the game. Now that's the
Speaker 1: Southern talk right there. I know some from it could
Speaker 1: not coach the courch courch the Houston Texans, they scoop
Speaker 1: up David Keully, black man. And and of course that's
Speaker 1: the other thing when a black man gets hired. Boy,
Speaker 1: the press releases, get the flying board, look at the
Speaker 1: NFL and diversity, and we're doing it. And we've ended
Speaker 1: racism with this higher one season four and thirteen, and
Speaker 1: he was let go by the Texans for what was
Speaker 1: called quote philosophical differences. How do you feel about the
Speaker 1: recent conversations around black coaches being scapegoaded for lackluster pertion?
Speaker 1: And do you think that they are given the same
Speaker 1: amount of runway? Yeah, you know, I'm just being honest.
Speaker 1: Are they given the same amount of runway as white
Speaker 1: coaches to have time to get things right?
Speaker 3: In my time in the NFL? The answers, No, I
Speaker 3: don't think so, just because of what I've seen. You
Speaker 3: gave one example, and of course they did hire Lovey
Speaker 3: Smith another black coach who's been in the system. So
Speaker 3: I even though I want everybody to get paid and
Speaker 3: Lovey Smith is a guy that players have spoke highly about,
Speaker 3: so I have nothing bad to say about him, but
Speaker 3: I do like fresh blood, so you know, seeing him
Speaker 3: get hired is great, but I would love the next
Speaker 3: generation of coaches to come behind him. I'll give you
Speaker 3: another one. Steve Wilkes was hired by the Arizona Cardinals
Speaker 3: and he was fired after one season. I remember that
Speaker 3: because it was a big deal. I'm like, Okay, the
Speaker 3: Cardinals got a new coach, Okay, Steve Wilks, all right,
Speaker 3: and then they go three and thirteen. I believe. Now
Speaker 3: three and thirteen is not a good record. We get that,
Speaker 3: But what are you supposed to do. How are you
Speaker 3: supposed to turn around a squad in one year? How
Speaker 3: are you supposed to fix things in one year? How
Speaker 3: are you supposed to, for the example, in Houston, change
Speaker 3: the quote unquote culture. That is the philosophy of football
Speaker 3: in organization, if you only have one year. There has
Speaker 3: never been this, this meteoric turnaround in one season when
Speaker 3: a coach is working with all of the drama that
Speaker 3: we've seen some of these coaches work with. Now, this
Speaker 3: isn't woe is me? All right? These coaches, they they
Speaker 3: walk away with a little chunk of change. But I
Speaker 3: want to see coaches have the same amount of time
Speaker 3: to turn things around as some of these white coaches.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that hasn't been done, you know,
Speaker 3: because a lot of people are saying, what about Marvin Lewis.
Speaker 3: Marvin Lewis was he was out in Cincinnati forever and
Speaker 3: they didn't go to the playoff. They didn't want a
Speaker 3: playoff game? Like what about Marvin? And it's like, I
Speaker 3: just with there's but there's always any there's an example.
Speaker 3: There's always an example to point to. But you can't
Speaker 3: point to one coach and say see, like here you are.
Speaker 3: It's like somebody saying, see I got a black friend
Speaker 3: that coaches. You know, it works.
Speaker 1: I think you also have to have a patient and
Speaker 1: tolerant ownership, which is what I think the Brown family
Speaker 1: in Cincinnati exhibited in showing that they are not here
Speaker 1: to just oh, one bad season, get your ass on,
Speaker 1: because it's not like the NFL. It's not like college
Speaker 1: football where you lose two years in a row, like
Speaker 1: all right, dog, the fans are turning on us to
Speaker 1: the NFL fans. Are the NFL fans. Here's an off
Speaker 1: the wall question. Do you think the high expectations of
Speaker 1: black coaches as soon as they come into the league
Speaker 1: is set because Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl in
Speaker 1: his second year with the Steelers. Then Mike Tomlin for
Speaker 1: the next fifteen seasons, for fifteen seasons, has not had
Speaker 1: a losing season. Do you think it's Mike Tomlin's fault
Speaker 1: for being too good? Mike Tomlin, are you listening to
Speaker 1: me right now? Listen, Mike Tomlin, we need you to lose, Okay,
Speaker 1: we need you to go. We need you to go
Speaker 1: two and fifteen the next three years in a row
Speaker 1: for do it for black people. Mike Tomlin.
Speaker 3: Okay, he said the bar too heart, he said the
Speaker 3: bar too hot. Listen, and he get up there, he
Speaker 3: gets the saying in words were like, listen, you don't
Speaker 3: want to paint the team with the brush. I call
Speaker 3: him Baraco Tomlin because he go out there and win
Speaker 3: them games and then he'll talk to eight. Listen, they
Speaker 3: might have a bad game after you get there and
Speaker 3: listen to me, like you know what he alright, I'm
Speaker 3: good with Stelis.
Speaker 1: But Tomlin has done something and I'm joking, of course.
Speaker 3: He's done something very special. Yeah, you have to get
Speaker 3: him credit.
Speaker 1: Stop tweeting me still, this fan, I know you're better
Speaker 1: tweeting because I'm gonna give Tomlin the props because he
Speaker 1: picked up Brian Flores after the Miami fiasco and said, hey, brother,
Speaker 1: come be on my staff, come join us. How much
Speaker 1: when we talk about diversifying and creating more of these
Speaker 1: qualified you know applicants, And we spoke last break about
Speaker 1: what Bruce Arians was doing in Tampa with Todd Bowles
Speaker 1: being dot and Bowles was a former coach of the
Speaker 1: Jets and things didn't go right for him when he
Speaker 1: was coaching the Jets, and you have Byron left with
Speaker 1: in that system. How much of changing the culture at
Speaker 1: the head coaching position requires diversifying the offensive staff positions
Speaker 1: as well, Like because Andy Reid blackened up his staff,
Speaker 1: Aaron Arians blackened up his staff, Tomlins insulated with a
Speaker 1: couple other you know and Flores isn't the only one.
Speaker 1: How much of that is part of the solution to
Speaker 1: this issue.
Speaker 3: I think that's a huge part of it because head
Speaker 3: coaches have so much influence because when a head coach
Speaker 3: is successful, you listen to what they say about the
Speaker 3: ex's and o's. Bruce Arians can stand up in front
Speaker 3: of the media and say, I would like to shout
Speaker 3: out my special teams coach, my defensive coordinator, and my
Speaker 3: offensive coordinator that are all black, three black coordinators for
Speaker 3: his squad and say, these guys are the main reason
Speaker 3: why we are successful. And immediately, as fans, as people
Speaker 3: who sit outside the game, your eyes turn to those coaches.
Speaker 3: We start paying attention to left, which more than ever before.
Speaker 3: We start looking at bulls and say, you know what,
Speaker 3: he's pretty damn good. Maybe we gave him a raw
Speaker 3: deal when he was coaching for the Jets. We start
Speaker 3: looking at these coaches in a different light, and it
Speaker 3: is up to these head coaches that are in these
Speaker 3: positions to bring up and highlight these candidates of color.
Speaker 3: So you know, I hope that what we see over
Speaker 3: the next handful of years will change. It's funny, though, Roy,
Speaker 3: because every time the season nears and end, we hear
Speaker 3: about these young black coaches. A lot of the former
Speaker 3: players who are tremendous coordinators defensive side of the ball,
Speaker 3: off in side of the ball, and we're like, oh,
Speaker 3: we got some good candidates, maybe let's go seven or eleven,
Speaker 3: and we crap out and we're sitting back where we started,
Speaker 3: and it's only three or four coaches that get hired
Speaker 3: the most. But I do feel like there is there
Speaker 3: is a shift coming. And I'm not being this this
Speaker 3: eternal optimist because I played in the league and I'm
Speaker 3: working for the machine. One thing I pride myself on
Speaker 3: is being honest, even if it's with my former employee,
Speaker 3: the NFL. But I do feel like change is coming.
Speaker 3: But well, let me ask you this because I'm a fan.
Speaker 3: Like I told you the first time we met a
Speaker 3: while ago, I'm a fan of you. I'm a fan
Speaker 3: of the genre. I'm a fan of comedy and general
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan of stand up stand up. Not
Speaker 3: saying that there hasn't been discrimination or racism or even segregation.
Speaker 3: We know the history of where it was and where
Speaker 3: it is now. But I feel like, and correct me
Speaker 3: if I'm wrong. If you're good and you grind and
Speaker 3: you improve, you can make enough noise to where the
Speaker 3: opportunities come undeniable, and you be f an undeniable. But
Speaker 3: in football you can be be enemy Eric, be enemy,
Speaker 3: be under and still not get an opportunity. Is there
Speaker 3: a parallel when it comes to comedy in sports? Or
Speaker 3: is comedy? Is comedy changed? Is the game changed for comedy?
Speaker 1: Social media created a new democracy that allowed for places
Speaker 1: for artists who don't necessarily get the same mainstream exposure.
Speaker 1: Like if we're gonna go big picture, we could make
Speaker 1: the argument that Bernie Mack was denied for a very
Speaker 1: long time until Kings of Comedy and Spike Lee came along,
Speaker 1: and then even to a degree Bernie had to draft
Speaker 1: off of Steve Harvey sitcom success and do Hubley sitcom
Speaker 1: success and said, being on Steve sitcom for white execs
Speaker 1: to go, what about that fourth one over there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what about the dark.
Speaker 1: Sk He got a show in him. And even then
Speaker 1: it took Larry Willmore, who was a vouch for and
Speaker 1: bonafid Hollywood writer at that time, for him to pair
Speaker 1: it with Bernie and create what we know is the
Speaker 1: Bernie mac Show. So you know, that's kind of the
Speaker 1: approach of being denied but getting but getting an assist
Speaker 1: or someone else having to go no trust us Bernie's
Speaker 1: the guy versus when you look modern age, I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, probably one of the quickest equivalencies I would
Speaker 1: make would be the eighty five South show, which a
Speaker 1: lot of people listening to us right now don't know
Speaker 1: about what these brothers do. Television, broadcast numbers on YouTube
Speaker 1: or the try guys will get there.
Speaker 3: But these shows and they tour, and they toured the country.
Speaker 1: Correct and so, and they sell twenty five hundred, three
Speaker 1: thirty five hundred seats eighty five South and they have
Speaker 1: not had any mainstream television exposure except for wiling out
Speaker 1: with Nick Cannon. Right, So, if you are good enough,
Speaker 1: the people choose in entertainment, if anything, entertainment is set
Speaker 1: up where the people have more power than the ownership.
Speaker 1: In the I have an audience, you can't deny me.
Speaker 1: In fact, you want me more because you think my
Speaker 1: audience is going to now come to your network. So
Speaker 1: there is a worth in that, Whereas in sports the
Speaker 1: fans are the most powerless because the ownership knows that
Speaker 1: the fans will watch regardless. The NFL knows that they
Speaker 1: know that regardless of what you do, you just you
Speaker 1: might not watch the whole game. All right, you might
Speaker 1: check in on highlights, but when we get that good
Speaker 1: free agent signing, your ass gonna be back. And there's
Speaker 1: a lot of morality. There's a lot of things that
Speaker 1: teams do that where you can question the morality versus
Speaker 1: trying to win. Be it racism or be it just
Speaker 1: like you signed this player that committed that crime or
Speaker 1: did that thing, how dare you? But people still rock
Speaker 1: with that team because they know the fans will be there,
Speaker 1: especially if they win, especially if they win. Television and
Speaker 1: movies is different, bro, because if I got an audience,
Speaker 1: low key, I don't need.
Speaker 3: You, you need me.
Speaker 1: And that's why you see a lot of social media
Speaker 1: stars who get cast and a lot of mainstream stuff
Speaker 1: because they need that. The studios need access to their
Speaker 1: audience and to their reach and the things that they do,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I think that, you know, to
Speaker 1: a degree, there's still a lot of racism and not
Speaker 1: a lot of black decision makers at the top of
Speaker 1: a lot of these entertainment structures. But at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I think that I have way more
Speaker 1: of a chance of getting put on and getting diverse
Speaker 1: and getting diversified. Is ray made away for herself. Quinta
Speaker 1: Brunton made away for herself, you know which, oddly enough,
Speaker 1: both of those women also still have ties back to
Speaker 1: Larry Wilmore. But in terms of creating an audience and
Speaker 1: a buzz for herself, those two women were self made
Speaker 1: and they just woke up every day with a camera
Speaker 1: with whatever lights they could afford at the time and
Speaker 1: created content until people started rocking with them. And so
Speaker 1: it's tough. It's like, at least, I put this way,
Speaker 1: entertainer has an advantage over a black coach. I can
Speaker 1: at least get myself to second base without a vouch.
Speaker 3: Now you're preaching, You're preaching, and listen. You opened up
Speaker 3: you know this podcast today's episode by mentioning the lack
Speaker 3: of not just black head coaches, but then went on
Speaker 3: to say no ownership. I mean there's also there's also
Speaker 3: this this like glaring, like bolded font that you see
Speaker 3: when you realize there are no black owners in the NFL.
Speaker 3: When I know that there's wealthy black men and black
Speaker 3: men and women excuse me, black men and women that
Speaker 3: want to be majority owners. I'm not saying mean correct
Speaker 3: that I know there might be minority owners, but majority owners,
Speaker 3: and I think there also needs to be more of
Speaker 3: that because listen, the only way you shake some of
Speaker 3: these very low the phrases that people throw around, like
Speaker 3: the good Old Boys Club, the only way that professional
Speaker 3: sports can shake that is by diversifying yourself. And if
Speaker 3: you're looking at the numbers, we've seen the studies diversification
Speaker 3: when it comes to the corporate infrastructure oftentimes breeds more success.
Speaker 3: So I know that the bottom line is to sell
Speaker 3: tickets right and have good football, and then you got
Speaker 3: to get the merchandise off and you want this organization
Speaker 3: to go from being what the Cowboys used to be
Speaker 3: to a four or five six billion dollar brand. Okay,
Speaker 3: diversify your product and I guarantee these organizations will see
Speaker 3: more success than they've ever seen.
Speaker 1: How much here's an off the wall question, and I
Speaker 1: think it's from a political standpoint where we're eventually headed
Speaker 1: as a people when it comes to race and identity
Speaker 1: as the next generation of people and mixed race people
Speaker 1: and bipops, et cetera start matriculating into you know, their
Speaker 1: adult lives. The coach for the Dolphins, Michael McDaniel, who
Speaker 1: was one of three head coaches that are black in
Speaker 1: the league. He got Lovey in Houston, you got Mike Tomlin.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, well, you say Baraco Tomlin, Baraco Tomlin and
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and Michael McDaniel. And Michael McDaniel has a black father,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't necessarily choose to identify as black. He
Speaker 1: doesn't deny it, but he out black and black college.
Speaker 1: You gotta put gravy and I like biscuit to that,
Speaker 1: like he's not black in that.
Speaker 3: It would be a little odd though, if he hasn't
Speaker 3: been doing his whole life and a reporter asked a question,
Speaker 3: he's like, my brother, good question, all.
Speaker 1: Right, but he is. He does check the boxes per
Speaker 1: the Rooney rule. And no, I'm not I'm not I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not dumping on him. What I'm what I'm what.
Speaker 1: The question I'm getting at is how black? Does that
Speaker 1: even matter in terms of the league is pushing his
Speaker 1: identity more than he's pushing it himself. But grind, do
Speaker 1: you think the league chooses to do that?
Speaker 3: I think we know the answer to that. The league
Speaker 3: choose to do that is because it's it's another box checked.
Speaker 3: And Mike McDaniel, you know, he's an individual that didn't
Speaker 3: lean on that throughout his coaching career. It wasn't like
Speaker 3: hey yo man, you know, it's like what was that movie?
Speaker 3: A soul man. He's not moving around like hey hey you.
Speaker 1: Hey my brother?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. But and Mike McDaniel is just a guy
Speaker 3: that that's grinded. He's grinding more than more than his race,
Speaker 3: checking the box. He is a recipient of that tree
Speaker 3: that I was talking about earlier. You have to think
Speaker 3: about uh Al Shanahan who coaches the Niners, Sean McVay,
Speaker 3: who coaches the Rams, and Mike McDaniel were all on
Speaker 3: the same staff in Washington. They were part of this
Speaker 3: this group that saw some offensive success and then organizations
Speaker 3: were like, okay, that was a really good offense. Let
Speaker 3: me pluck from that staff. And it just so happened
Speaker 3: that on that staff we're three very intelligent, young, offensive
Speaker 3: minded white coaches. They can't help the color of their skin,
Speaker 3: they can't help the system they were in, and they
Speaker 3: for damn sure aren't gonna apologize for having a successful offense.
Speaker 3: The difference is there should be more eyes on successful
Speaker 3: offenses that are loaded with African American coaches as well.
Speaker 1: Where do we and this is the last question. I know,
Speaker 1: I know we have to get you out of here,
Speaker 1: and we got to talk to all good brother in
Speaker 1: the world. This is a question. That's where I'm trying
Speaker 1: to figure out. To listen, I'm trying to help you
Speaker 1: keep your job. Like every every question I ask you,
Speaker 1: I'm ready head, I'm going make sure Nate can keep
Speaker 1: his job, make sure Nate keeps getting invited to NFL
Speaker 1: honors during pro both.
Speaker 3: I'm good, I'm good, ask away, bro, be honest, I
Speaker 3: got you.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get to the importance of how having
Speaker 1: a black head coach, or having black coaches period on
Speaker 1: your staff makes your team better in a league with
Speaker 1: majority black players. Yeah, when you were playing, how much more?
Speaker 1: And this goes back to college too. We can go
Speaker 1: all the way back to the age just here to
Speaker 1: just talk about your time in the NFL. Just as
Speaker 1: a footwall. Let's go back to Pop Warner all the
Speaker 1: way to CEFL with you. Did you feel a different
Speaker 1: connection when you had black coaches in any capacity on
Speaker 1: the staff. Was there a different as a black player,
Speaker 1: Was there a different connection. Was there anything that resonated
Speaker 1: for you in that time?
Speaker 3: Of course, Listen, representation matters on every level. When you
Speaker 3: walk in and you see somebody that looks like you,
Speaker 3: there's a comfort level there that you immediately embrace. You know,
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that every black coach is going to
Speaker 3: identify with every black player. I mean, there's some black
Speaker 3: coaches who didn't come from struggle, and they're not going
Speaker 3: to be able to talk to a kid that was
Speaker 3: raised in a house full of six brothers and sisters
Speaker 3: and they were on welfare. Maybe a black coach that
Speaker 3: was raised in bel there won't be able to talk
Speaker 3: to that kid in the way that he needs to.
Speaker 3: Maybe there's a white coach that struggled and grew up
Speaker 3: in harsh conditions and might be able to talk to
Speaker 3: that black kid a little bit more intimately. But when
Speaker 3: you have representation of African American coaches on your staff
Speaker 3: in the team, when you sit in that locker room
Speaker 3: and you're taking your cleats off and you look around
Speaker 3: and you see a sea of black people sprinkled in
Speaker 3: with some white players, you would hope that your staff
Speaker 3: also reflects that one because you feel like it's only fair.
Speaker 3: I mean, the odds are that all of these black
Speaker 3: players that love the game so much that literally put
Speaker 3: all their eggs in this basket. Once that basket was empty,
Speaker 3: went and got some more football legs to put it in.
Speaker 3: And then once they retire, they went and got them
Speaker 3: retirement football leagues to put it in that same basket.
Speaker 3: These same players are some of the most beautiful I'm
Speaker 3: talking about Russell Crowe, beautiful minds that could coach at
Speaker 3: the next level. So we when we don't see that,
Speaker 3: we're like, all right, so we're good enough to go
Speaker 3: out here and get paid to play, but we're not
Speaker 3: good enough to get paid to lead. So's there lies
Speaker 3: the resentment and anger. But when you do have that,
Speaker 3: it's just different. Like you can walk upstairs and I
Speaker 3: can talk to a white coach and we can sit
Speaker 3: there and chop it up about anything, and I might
Speaker 3: have something that might be a little bit more personal.
Speaker 3: And I can go out his office and walk to
Speaker 3: a coach like Sean Jefferson who was my receiver's coach,
Speaker 3: black former player who is still coaching the league, and
Speaker 3: I can walk in his office and have a completely
Speaker 3: different conversation because there's that connection. Coaches that understand that,
Speaker 3: and they diversify their staff, there's less friction, there's more cohesiveness,
Speaker 3: there's less issues off the field, because it's one thing
Speaker 3: for you know, let me, let me keep it all
Speaker 3: the way one hundred. It's one thing for a coach
Speaker 3: to look at a young black player who never had
Speaker 3: money and tell him what he should be doing, how
Speaker 3: he should be moving, how he should be acting. Another
Speaker 3: thing for a black man to talk to a young
Speaker 3: black man who might not have necessarily had an older
Speaker 3: brother or father figure or someone to speak encouragement, intelligence,
Speaker 3: to speak great vibrations into this man's life. It's different
Speaker 3: when a black coach does that. Like I've had those
Speaker 3: moments where a black coach will walk in after something
Speaker 3: that happening over the weekend and he'd be like, hey, listen, listen, man, close,
Speaker 3: close them books up. We'll watch filming a little bit,
Speaker 3: and y'all better type up. You see what happened this weekend.
Speaker 3: See oh boy wilding out there in the streets. He's done.
Speaker 3: He's done that contract that he thought he was gonna get.
Speaker 3: No more, mark my worst. He will never play again.
Speaker 3: So if y'all at the round and fumble this bag
Speaker 3: like we tell you not to fumble of football. You'll
Speaker 3: be sitting at home at your mama house. So don't
Speaker 3: walk around here with your chest out and your chin
Speaker 3: up thinking you God's gift to football. Because the game
Speaker 3: was here before you, it will continue while you're here,
Speaker 3: and for damn, sure's gonna continue afterwards. That's different when
Speaker 3: you look in at someone that almost looks like a
Speaker 3: mirror reflection. So that's to answer your question a very
Speaker 3: long winded way. That's why it's important to have that representation.
Speaker 3: And you see you see that, Like, I'm not saying
Speaker 3: that that Tampa doesn't have any issues, but Tampa got
Speaker 3: a lot of black coaches. I don't see Tampa Bay
Speaker 3: Buccaneers wilding out. Now there's also leadership Bruce Arians and
Speaker 3: there's Tom Brady who comes in as a veteran. He's
Speaker 3: been there, done that, of want some Super bowls. Tom
Speaker 3: could tell people like, look at the way we do it.
Speaker 3: The way we win it is we tien up in
Speaker 3: all areas on and off the field. Okay, cool, But
Speaker 3: it's also like it's just different when you when you
Speaker 3: see people that look like you speaking life into you.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, well, I respect that. Also, you know, Tom
Speaker 1: Brady dedicated. He gave up his marriage.
Speaker 3: Okay, listen, they working it out. They working it out.
Speaker 3: That's what we heard. Word on the street.
Speaker 1: We Nate bros. And thank you so much. We love
Speaker 1: you every morning on CBS Mornings. It's the best of
Speaker 1: everybody over there, Gale and everybody else and the homie Blad,
Speaker 1: everybody over there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell Blad and Gail and Tony
Speaker 3: you said, what's up? And listen. Before you get me
Speaker 3: out of here, I just want to say I appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Been a fan of yours for a long time. I
Speaker 3: know you have been doing this for decades and a
Speaker 3: lot of the work that you have done not everybody sees.
Speaker 3: But you are one of the leaders. Not just in
Speaker 3: a comedic space, but I've seen you grow into this
Speaker 3: businessman who works in front of the camera and behind it.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if you get your flowers a lot,
Speaker 3: but you deserve it, man, you deserve it. Any time
Speaker 3: I see your name or hear your voice, my ears
Speaker 3: perk up, man, because I know you're either going to
Speaker 3: be dropping knowledge are you gonna have me in tears?
Speaker 3: And that's quite the combination.
Speaker 1: Brother. Thank you so much for that, and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you for coming and going beyond the scenes with us,
Speaker 1: no doubt. Let me get some free NFL tickets.
Speaker 3: I got you. Tell me the game. I got you, Dolphin,
Speaker 3: Tell me the game.
Speaker 1: Dolphins just came to New York. Damn. Never mind next season.
Speaker 1: After the break, we will speak with Collect V. Smith,
Speaker 1: who was the first black woman coach in the NFL
Speaker 1: during her time with the New York Jets. We'll talk
Speaker 1: with her after the break. We'll be right back beyond
Speaker 1: the scenes. We are back now. We are still talking
Speaker 1: about black coaches in the NFL. Joining me now is
Speaker 1: a former coach for the New York Jets. And you
Speaker 1: know the way the Jets looking these days, she might
Speaker 1: need to go on go back talk to them a
Speaker 1: little bit. But more importantly, she was the first black
Speaker 1: female coach in the NFL. Collect V. Smith, Court Smith,
Speaker 1: how you doing today?
Speaker 4: What's happening in roy Wood is nice to see, I'm
Speaker 4: doing good.
Speaker 1: Now? Is the job occupation of coach like president, where
Speaker 1: even when you're not doing it no more, you are
Speaker 1: still coach.
Speaker 4: And you absolutely nobody wants to come to my house
Speaker 4: to watch football because I'm pausing muting, freezing the frame,
Speaker 4: checking out the alignment, that foot positioning, and people get mad,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, you could leave my house. It's fine.
Speaker 1: Why are you having a tape session in the middle
Speaker 1: of a Super Bowl party? Coach? That's not how you're
Speaker 1: supposed to watch football, it is that what did your
Speaker 1: ass need to go in another room? Like Peyton Manning
Speaker 1: and them, you need to have a separate Manning cast
Speaker 1: the rest of us.
Speaker 4: I take notes. I send notes to my former players
Speaker 4: wherever they are with the Bears, the Seahawks. I'm like,
Speaker 4: I was watching your game. Here's what you did wrong,
Speaker 4: Here's what you did right. I can't help myself.
Speaker 1: So at that time, you were one of one, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of becoming the first black female coach to
Speaker 1: be in the NFL ranks? How did you get there?
Speaker 1: But more importantly, did you ever realize how much of
Speaker 1: a unicorn you were while you were setting down this path?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 4: I never I never thought about that I might have
Speaker 4: been a unicorn in this arena. For me, I just
Speaker 4: loved football, and I started playing football when I was
Speaker 4: forty two years old. Professionally at least, you know, I
Speaker 4: played with the boys in the street when I was
Speaker 4: a kid. But I wasn't allowed to play organized football.
Speaker 4: With Pop Warner, how absurd is that?
Speaker 1: So for instance, and Pop warners an age with the
Speaker 1: girls are bigger than the boys.
Speaker 4: That part we outgrow boys in the early stages. You're right,
Speaker 4: but I wasn't allowed to play organized so being a
Speaker 4: coach in the NFL was not a dream. How could
Speaker 4: I have that dream? That dream was stolen from me. So,
Speaker 4: you know, Billy Jen King, Billy Chin King was the
Speaker 4: one that brought it to my attention that I was
Speaker 4: the first black woman to coach NFL history, and I
Speaker 4: looked at him like she was crazy.
Speaker 1: So you started playing organized ball at forty two? First off,
Speaker 1: what leagues are going on for forty two year old women? Where?
Speaker 1: What was this? How did that? Because I love football?
Speaker 1: I watched that video game football. They showing the weird
Speaker 1: video game channel. It's like watching people play.
Speaker 4: Oh that's so dope. It is fly, that's fly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But it's not necessarily a league for women in their forties.
Speaker 4: It's just a league for women so eighteen and older.
Speaker 4: And there is no cutoff. So if you're capable physically
Speaker 4: capable to do this, and you make the tryouts, you're in.
Speaker 4: So I was the old check on the team.
Speaker 1: So you play, you leave, and then at that point,
Speaker 1: is it the traditional post playing trajectory that you had
Speaker 1: the same as the men where you played organ and
Speaker 1: then you find your way into different organizations. Did you
Speaker 1: know any of the women that were coaching in the
Speaker 1: league at the time, Like, just just set up the
Speaker 1: bread crumbs of how you end up in the office
Speaker 1: of the New York Jets and then going to you
Speaker 1: you're hired.
Speaker 4: So when I started playing football professionally, I wasn't a
Speaker 4: great player, but I was a great scholar of the game.
Speaker 4: So I had more bench time than I did on
Speaker 4: field time. But I was watching film, and I was
Speaker 4: studying our opponents, and I was reading the playbook and
Speaker 4: asking questions. And so eventually, when I retired from playing
Speaker 4: women's pro football, I went into coaching my women's team,
Speaker 4: which was scary as hell, but wow, I was because
Speaker 4: my teammates, my peers, these are players that play better
Speaker 4: than me. But I knew what to do in my brain.
Speaker 4: My body was like, we ain't having that, you know.
Speaker 4: So it was scary to go from your girl like
Speaker 4: what up, homie to Okay, I need two lines right now.
Speaker 4: We're working on w drills recovering deep paths today. Line up.
Speaker 4: That was hard to do, so eventually I made that happen.
Speaker 4: It was a hard transition, but I was up for
Speaker 4: the challenge. Eventually, my women's team had made me the
Speaker 4: executive director over marketing, PR events, all of this stuff. So,
Speaker 4: being a Jets fan, a lifelong tired Jets fan, I
Speaker 4: reached out to the New York Jets to say, hey,
Speaker 4: look we need some help over here were your sisters,
Speaker 4: what's up? And I probably wore them out, like I
Speaker 4: was calling, calling, calling, calling, and I believe they were
Speaker 4: just like, let me just call this chick back, because
Speaker 4: she gonna keep calling if we don't just give her
Speaker 4: a call. But when they called me, we were cool.
Speaker 4: They loved me rightfully. So and I got invited to
Speaker 4: a Jets practice, and at Roy at that time was like,
Speaker 4: I'm busy, I'm doing real estate, I'm doing football, I'm coaching,
Speaker 4: I'm doing the marketing. I don't got time of this.
Speaker 4: Then when I thought about it, I said I could
Speaker 4: learn from NFL coaches so I could bring that high
Speaker 4: level of coaching skills back to my women. So I went.
Speaker 4: But what ended up happening was I met the then
Speaker 4: head coach of the New York Jets, coach Todd Bowles,
Speaker 4: one of the very few black men that are in
Speaker 4: head coach positions, and he and I talked, shot.
Speaker 1: He's in Tampa Bay now.
Speaker 4: Yes, and he's got his championship ring.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But so I got hired directly through him. I didn't
Speaker 4: come through a program. I didn't come from anybody's you know,
Speaker 4: from the Rooney rule.
Speaker 1: Or the Bill Watson, the initiative.
Speaker 4: Right. I came in because I had a jackhammer, you know,
Speaker 4: And I just came banging on in and we talked
Speaker 4: shop and he realized I was serious about this and
Speaker 4: I knew my stuff, so he gave me a shot.
Speaker 1: Okay. But then, being that you didn't come through those
Speaker 1: traditional avenues of hire or the let's just call it
Speaker 1: the affirmative action highway for lack of a better phrase,
Speaker 1: did that gain you more respect or less respect from
Speaker 1: the other players and coaches while you were within the
Speaker 1: Jets organization? Like how much how you were hired? Bowles
Speaker 1: brought you in so to a degree that protects you
Speaker 1: because people have to trust you based on his pedigree. Correct,
Speaker 1: But when Bowles ain't around, everybody knows that the energy
Speaker 1: can sometimes shift. So how respected were you within the
Speaker 1: organization amongst the other players and coaches because you're the
Speaker 1: first black woman to be on an NFL sideline like
Speaker 1: this is not this is new for them too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. You know, I came in. All of the
Speaker 4: players gave me the utmost respect, and I don't think
Speaker 4: anybody knew per se that I didn't come in through
Speaker 4: a program that I was hired directly through their head coach.
Speaker 4: That wasn't talked about if it was, I wasn't in
Speaker 4: that room, run that phone call. But the players were great.
Speaker 4: You know, to be very clear here, there's always going
Speaker 4: to be one sucker. One guy is hard to deal with,
Speaker 4: and I had one. He was a coach and he
Speaker 4: did not make my life comfortable by any means, and
Speaker 4: he let me know it, and that was challenging.
Speaker 1: Do you think how much of that was based on
Speaker 1: you snuck in because you're a woman or just because
Speaker 1: you're one, like you didn't go through what I consider
Speaker 1: it be the proper trajectory, or was it strictly flat
Speaker 1: out you're a woman. I don't care what you know.
Speaker 1: I don't care how cool your schemes are and what
Speaker 1: plays you draw up. You need to be in the kitchen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, I really don't know why. I
Speaker 4: believe it's because who she thinks she is. And when
Speaker 4: I tell you our very first conversation with this particular coach,
Speaker 4: he looked at me. I never forget he was sitting
Speaker 4: there at his desk like this, and I walked in
Speaker 4: excited and I was like, I know where you played,
Speaker 4: I know where you coach, I know where you're scouted.
Speaker 4: I've been following you. I did my research. And he
Speaker 4: looked at me and then he turned back to the
Speaker 4: computer like I wasn't even there. And I backpedal. So
Speaker 4: if anybody knows anything about football, playing a defensive back,
Speaker 4: that's what I played and coached. I back pedaled out
Speaker 4: the office, Like what intarnation is going on? I'm thinking
Speaker 4: I'm getting hazed or this is a joke. Yeah, he
Speaker 4: kept it going, He kept it going.
Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit just in terms of
Speaker 1: persevering through that and being a woman in that space,
Speaker 1: because like, if there's people like that within an organization.
Speaker 1: Then there have to be people like that in theory
Speaker 1: somewhere in the front offices, which means there has to
Speaker 1: be people like that on high in New York at
Speaker 1: the NFL, at the league office level. So like when
Speaker 1: we look at the Rooney rul. We were talking earlier
Speaker 1: than Nate about the Rooney Rule, Like, you know, do
Speaker 1: you think that's still effective in terms of figuring out
Speaker 1: a way to create a diversity pipeline into the NFL?
Speaker 1: Or have teams figured out a way around it? Like
Speaker 1: they kind of like kind of like what the Brian
Speaker 1: flore Is Dolphins lawsuit where you interviewed me but you
Speaker 1: already knew who you was going to hire and you
Speaker 1: just brought me in on a dummy run. Like it's
Speaker 1: the Rooney rule still doing anything to fix the problems.
Speaker 4: I think without the Rooney Rule, we'd have less minorities
Speaker 4: in the NFL. I think there should be more. But
Speaker 4: I think that people have learned the loopholes around the
Speaker 4: Rooney Rule, you know, I mean, it's disgusting what goes on,
Speaker 4: But what happens is it's a good old boys club, right,
Speaker 4: It's a good old boys club. I know you from
Speaker 4: LSU or from Oklahoma State or the Ohio state, or
Speaker 4: you're my child hood friend or right, and that part
Speaker 4: of nepotism.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: I'm happy the Rooney rule is there, but I don't
Speaker 4: think it's being utilized completely the right way.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: And so we're always on a continuous When I say we,
Speaker 4: I mean black folks. We're always trying to prove ourselves
Speaker 4: all the time. There are some skilled as coaches that
Speaker 4: need to be in head coach positions, right, but we
Speaker 4: have more work to do. You know, we can't micromanage
Speaker 4: everybody at the end of the day. You know, a franchise,
Speaker 4: a particular team should have some kind of right to
Speaker 4: how they handle their team, but you have to abide
Speaker 4: by these rules, so they're finding loopholes.
Speaker 1: How much you know, and again, your situation was a
Speaker 1: little different on how you got in with the Jets,
Speaker 1: But how much does the ruining rule also create a
Speaker 1: traumatic experience for the black of women candidates for these
Speaker 1: jobs by giving them false hope and then having it dashed.
Speaker 1: Does that make it worse for black and women candidates
Speaker 1: trying to enter into the league.
Speaker 4: No, that's life. That's what we've experienced. Our whole life, right,
Speaker 4: whether it be corporate level. I know that firsthand. You
Speaker 4: know I could come in more qualified than the next
Speaker 4: person for a corporate job in your in Manhattan, and
Speaker 4: I don't get the job, and I find out who did,
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm more qualified than she is. So this
Speaker 4: is not I'm not new to that game. Probably most
Speaker 4: of us are not new to that game. I think
Speaker 4: just having our foot in the door can't actually bring
Speaker 4: us more hope. Like I was close, so I'm gonna
Speaker 4: keep pounding.
Speaker 1: Okay, But then to that point, does it because based
Speaker 1: on what you said, what you said an assistant coach
Speaker 1: at the Jets giving you the ice grill, even though
Speaker 1: you were qualified, even though you came in baptized with
Speaker 1: the blessings of his boss. Does this new rule? So
Speaker 1: the NFL got new rule right where all thirty two
Speaker 1: teams you got to either have a female or a
Speaker 1: person of color as an offensive assistant. This is mandated diversity.
Speaker 1: Those candidates who are hired based on that mandate. Of course,
Speaker 1: it increases the number of coaching opportunities, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: like you can build your way up, But does that
Speaker 1: force them into a hostile work environment? Is it a
Speaker 1: good way to increase numbers.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a great way to increase numbers.
Speaker 4: But listen, it's a roll of the dice.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I could be mandated to be hired by the Rooney rule. Okay,
Speaker 4: by the mandate. I'm in here, and you don't like that.
Speaker 4: But I'm going to come in here and work my
Speaker 4: butt off and you're going to see why I'm here.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: It's just fair. It's just completely fair. And so, I mean,
Speaker 4: I don't think anything scares us.
Speaker 3: What.
Speaker 4: I don't think about the future like that when it
Speaker 4: comes to well, it might be hostile and might not
Speaker 4: be this coach that was wrong to me. I'll tell
Speaker 4: you something, Roy. My dad and I would speak on
Speaker 4: the phone every night and say, hey, how was it?
Speaker 4: He would ask me, how was it today? I'm like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, it's great. I love it.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 4: I love it and I love it more. But there's
Speaker 4: this one jerk. And after a few days of this,
Speaker 4: or a week or two of this, my dad was like,
Speaker 4: why don't you speak to you know, why don't you
Speaker 4: tell bowls? And I said, I'm the only woman coach
Speaker 4: up in here. I'm not about to be like, he's
Speaker 4: not treating me nice. I'm not gonna be that jick.
Speaker 4: So I just dealt with it the best I could.
Speaker 4: Coach Bowls knew nothing about it. Other coaches saw the
Speaker 4: way he would treat me. These players saw it, you know,
Speaker 4: and it wasn't like he was he was saying anything
Speaker 4: nasty to me. His look alone was almost like shut up.
Speaker 4: Or if I was coaching, he would walk in and
Speaker 4: roy and give me a look.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, do you think that I
Speaker 1: think I know the answer to this question. But if
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that, I know our listeners are thinking this.
Speaker 1: So I got to ask you what responsibility, if any,
Speaker 1: do the other staffers have to making sure that diversity
Speaker 1: hires are treated with some degree of respect or is
Speaker 1: it not the responsibility to go around and police every
Speaker 1: meaning within the organization as.
Speaker 4: A human being. I think everybody has a responsibility to
Speaker 4: check that right. But then as a coach, we don't
Speaker 4: have time to be born about outside things that are
Speaker 4: actually inside. But we're getting our job done. So the
Speaker 4: other coaches that saw it, that may have seen it,
Speaker 4: they would look like him, and then we would do
Speaker 4: some strategizing on special teams. So you know, everybody was
Speaker 4: just trying to stay dedicated to the game plan at hand,
Speaker 4: and that was to have the best team and create
Speaker 4: the best players that we can get.
Speaker 1: So by solving the problem, it almost creates a distraction
Speaker 1: to a degree, correct within the organization. Yeah, well, there
Speaker 1: has been some degree of progress. Last in the league
Speaker 1: we had six women coaches. This year there's fifteen. Are
Speaker 1: you happy with the increase in women coaches since you
Speaker 1: became a coach? But more importantly is what's happening now
Speaker 1: with the thirty two team mandate? Is that the best
Speaker 1: way to achieve diversity in the league.
Speaker 4: Listen, any way to get us in there is the
Speaker 4: best way. Otherwise we wouldn't have been right. So listen,
Speaker 4: if I had my way, I would drive up with
Speaker 4: a van fill filled with serious women coaches, and I
Speaker 4: drive to every team, every franchise team, and say here
Speaker 4: you got to bye.
Speaker 1: And I did not drive to the next team a
Speaker 1: newspaper delivery. You're just throwing just throwing women out the
Speaker 1: window like a news So then let's let's let's end here.
Speaker 1: Why why is it important for the NFL to hold
Speaker 1: the team owners accountable? You know, to the diversity and
Speaker 1: inclusion regulations that they put in place, because you can
Speaker 1: have all these regulations, but if ownership gonna work around,
Speaker 1: and what the hell are we accomplishing? Like when you
Speaker 1: look at like and I know this isn't apples to apples,
Speaker 1: when you look at what's happening in the NBA with
Speaker 1: the Phoenix signs and you have an owner that is
Speaker 1: now being forced to sell his team on some Donald
Speaker 1: Sterling La Clippers esque. We found racism in the documents,
Speaker 1: and then the John Gruden being forced to resign from
Speaker 1: the Las Vegas Raiders because we found racism in the
Speaker 1: document and then the Washington Commanders right being rumored to
Speaker 1: have a bunch of nonsense being going on behind the
Speaker 1: scenes that's rooted in a lot of racism and discrimination.
Speaker 1: So you know, how important is it that the league
Speaker 1: do what they need to do to make sure that
Speaker 1: the owners are held accountable.
Speaker 4: Vitally vitally important. And I'm down with that life. I'm
Speaker 4: down with it because if we don't get it checked,
Speaker 4: if the NFL league as a whole does not check
Speaker 4: these owners, these team owners, it will just keep happening
Speaker 4: and we'll be nowhere further in twenty years than we
Speaker 4: were fifty years ago. So that's progress to me. I'm excited. Listen,
Speaker 4: I'm extremely proud of what the NFL is trying to
Speaker 4: do to make positive change within this league for diversity
Speaker 4: and inclusion.
Speaker 1: I lied one more question. Do you think the fans care?
Speaker 1: Do you think they know or care about the imbalanced
Speaker 1: ratio between coaches and players?
Speaker 4: Not all the fans give a crap. Not all of
Speaker 4: them give a crap. They just want to see their
Speaker 4: team win. But I tell you this, the black fans care,
Speaker 4: and the women care. And if you think about this,
Speaker 4: women make up. Damn there fifty percent of viewership purchasing
Speaker 4: of apparel paraphernalia. So they better treat us right. And listen,
Speaker 4: if we were all to get together, we be in
Speaker 4: the minority. We ain't, I said, ain't. We ain't the minority.
Speaker 4: Let's be very clear about that.
Speaker 1: So y'all are the fiscal majority. But when it comes
Speaker 1: to staff, and y'all two percent? Hell up, right, So
Speaker 1: we've hired our one woman. Perhaps you would like to
Speaker 1: be a lowly paid cheerleader for seventy five dollars a game.
Speaker 4: That's a damn shame. They're athletes.
Speaker 1: And while we're talking about the cheerleaders, I don't care.
Speaker 4: Look, put some clothes on them chicks.
Speaker 1: Okay, now hang on, now, you slow down.
Speaker 3: Now, I was with you.
Speaker 1: Now, look, I've been with you this whole conversation. You're
Speaker 1: starting to lose me. Okay, but listen.
Speaker 4: If that's the case, I would love to see the
Speaker 4: players walking around or run around the field in the jockstrap. Okay,
Speaker 4: we don't do that. Put some clothes on those women.
Speaker 1: Oh goodness. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 1: And let's not think the next time we see each
Speaker 1: other at the Knicks game from now.
Speaker 3: Please, I'll see you this here, please yes.
Speaker 1: Say collect V Smith? Excuse me? Coach always once a coach,
Speaker 1: always a coach, always collect V Smith. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for going beyond the scenes with us today. Thank you,
Speaker 1: of course, and also thank you to the homing Nate
Speaker 1: and thank you the listener for going beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: We'll see you later. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond
Speaker 1: the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Explore more shows from the Daily
Speaker 1: Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show.
Speaker 3: Wherever you get your podcast. Watch The Daily Show week
Speaker 3: nights at eleven.
Speaker 2: Ten Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime
Speaker 2: on Fairmount Plus.
Speaker 1: This has been a Comedy Central podcast