WEBVTT - Ep. 380: Chopping Up A Buffalo With Clovis Points 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening un podcast. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:23.360 You can't predict anything presented by First like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.880 versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:35.880 for every hunt. First Light, Go Farther, stay longer, real quick. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:37.919 A couple of things we want to announce here. So 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.760 if you've watched me Eater and followed our stuff, you've 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.280 you've obviously my friend Kimmy Werner around uh spear fisher 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.680 woman from Hawaii. I love her to death. We're doing 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.040 a series with her spear Chef, so Jimmy's own Spearfish 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.080 and show. I'm on one in the Bahamas and holy 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.040 ship that we have a good time. I got some 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.920 just really cool just everything about it, and I was 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.240 like it was a dream, amazing footage. My kids were 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.520 mesmerized by when I watched it with him, just all 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.960 the beautiful underwater stuff. So episode one came out a 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:13.080 few days ago. Check that out. Also, our hate to 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.240 call our former co host, but it used to be 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.840 Yanni was on like on this show. Yanni was on 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.679 every episode. This is back when Yanni produced Uh, Yanni 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.319 needs to produce our TV show. We were always together, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.600 like we always say, nuts on a dog. Uh, Yanni 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.080 was on every episode. Yanni like missed one episode in 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.119 years of recording. But he's going on. He's gone. He's 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.600 got his own stuff. He does his own show, runs 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.520 his own program um. He is launching a new podcast 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.840 which is called which is our gear Talk Podcast, which 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.480 is Yanni a collaborative project between our very own Yanni 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.440 would tell us and Jordan's bud what we're gonna do 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.559 on our gear Talk podcast where they just talk about 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.880 all things gear, arguments about gear, what's coming out, what 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.960 they like, how they packed everything from gear World, deep 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.440 dives on certain gear items, history on gear and how 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.440 it came to be the way it is. You can 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.200 go on over and pick that show up and subscribe 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:10.560 to it and it will be served to you on 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:20.560 its own feed. Gear Talk Podcast. All right, you know 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.640 what's annoying. It's yesterday. My wife comes in the house. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.200 First thing out of her mouth, I heard you heard 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:33.280 you don't have a very good grip strength. First thing 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.160 that that was the So she ran into a couple 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.000 of guys before she saw me. That was her number 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:43.640 one takeaway from our day. It's just something you can 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.600 work on. Maybe you know I'm holding it's a Jamaar 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:54.639 plus by Samson's Preston and tell us about this thing, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.240 tell us why you have this, and then we'll get 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.400 into greater detail. Yeah. So that's a device that allows 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.200 us to measure the strength of your grip. And we 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.680 have another one in the box there for pinch strength. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.200 And what we want to do when we do tests 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.800 involving cutting, we're really interested in understanding the tools and 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.320 not so much the butcher using the tools, and so 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.320 we measure the strength of butchers and their grip strength 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.480 and their pin strength, so we can control for that 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.600 in our tests. So if we're looking at two different tools, 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.520 we want to make sure that the difference we see 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.200 is not due to different butchers, but because of the 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.200 two different tools. And what's the highest score you've ever 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.960 seen throwing on this? It might have been yesterday really 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:45.320 with John I think you got into the sixties. He 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.400 just edged Clay and I out. Everybody introduced themselves Real 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.800 Quick Spencer, Spencer new are Thy host media Trivia. I 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.320 was part of the experiment yesterday. I'm met in air 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.840 and I'm an archaeologist at Kent State University. Yeah, Clay 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.360 nwcom here. Yeah, I was a part of the big 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.160 fiasco we had yesterday too. I guess we're gonna tell 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.200 about that. I wasn't sure if we were. Oh, we'll 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.320 get into that, okay, But I want to settled. I 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.840 want to explain something about my low score. Ye. Dave Meltzer, 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.880 archaeologist SMBU in Dallas, John Hayes from Hayes Tax from 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.960 the studio, and I also took part in the experiment yesterday. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.479 Why do you got? Why do why are you sometimes 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.440 an anthropologist and sometimes an archaeologist. Well, so archaeology is 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:35.120 within anthropology, and so yeah, my degrees are Actually there's 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.400 a flow chart. Yeah. Well, there's four subdisciplines, is what 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:44.640 there is. Archaeology, biological anthropology, linguistics, and socio cultural anthropology 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.080 all live under I'll live under the umbrella of anthropology. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.919 We're all studying humans in one form or another. Is 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.799 it agreed upon that those are like the four subdisciplines 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.200 of anthropology traditionally? Yeah? Absolutely. Could you go through those again? 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.960 Our theology, which is what Mett and I do. We 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.040 study people in the past. Biological anthropology which looks at 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.920 human variation human evolution from a physical biological point of view. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:16.839 Linguistics study language, and socio cultural is looking at culture 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:23.440 societies around the world. M I had no idea. Archaeology 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:29.320 is the cool one though. All archaeologists are anthropologists, but 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.640 not all anthropologists are archaeologist. That's exactly right, Okay, So anyhow, 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.720 here's the important part of this whole thing. We had 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.120 to measure grip strength yesterday because we we'll get into 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.719 greater details. We butchered an entire buffalo yesterday, fresh dead, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.640 using stone tools, one of which is laying in front 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:57.080 of us right now in my hands are full. I 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.040 didn't know how bad it was, so I took a shower, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:07.360 m battered, yes, full of cuts. Yeah, and I'm gonna 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.800 get ahead of ourselves for second. To address this one issue. 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.919 Archaeological sites, really old Clovis sites, you guys, find what 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.479 one might deduce would be a knife made from a 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.559 flake that is sharp all the way around it. Yeah, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:28.200 all the time. But the Neanderthals are smart and they 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.640 knew to make a dull side for your finger. Well 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.200 in the Middle Paleolithic sort of the time of the Neanderthals. Yeah, 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.320 they would do what's called backing, and they would chip 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.360 away one side to to make it dull such that 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.479 they could rest their hand on it. We don't really 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:48.640 see that in on Clovis flakes, um, but they might 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.200 have been using some sort of leather to protect their 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.200 hands or something. M hmm. It's gonna eventually emerge that 0:06:55.360 --> 0:07:01.440 the Neanderthals had phones and stuff. One because every day 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.839 there's a thing we've talked. Every day there's a thing like, oh, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.000 it turns out they were gentle artists, you know, And 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.160 it turns out they right, they just get like smarter smarter. Well, 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.000 I mean, we were able to interbreed with them, so 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.520 they're still alive and in some sense, I think in 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:25.160 about two to of human DNA human genomes, because ste 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.640 doesn't have too much. I came in low, which couldn't 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.840 explain my little grips, right, I came in sub. I 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:39.480 came in like subpar on Neanderthal Uh okay, So we 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.119 had to do grip strength and I had to go first, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.960 so I didn't have a technique, and then I was 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:51.080 kind of going for like a long right, a long 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:56.520 sustained grip and then John got though. Mr high score 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.320 here just got up and did just like an explosive 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:05.560 scrash explow some spam them strength. You've used his technique 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:11.280 and we'll test it again. A lift that up? Okay, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.040 got you got into the sixties. Now what number would 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.920 you be satisfied at? Like forties? What number would you 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.800 be satisfied with? This time? The strongest grip in the room. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.800 So you want to you want to hit seventy. So 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.480 you're gonna have to hit test before you do it. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.760 And you were doing it on the third notch, third notch, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:37.040 So I was pretty low yesterday, the lowest. How did 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:41.560 you throw up sixty nine on this? Okay, ready, now 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.199 you're gonna hear you see some things you might not 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.920 want to test again because if you wait too long. 0:08:49.320 --> 0:09:03.360 Yeah zero, that's not the sound of redemption. Okay, ready, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:15.640 yeah damnit zo set and my hands all caught up 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.960 from the flint plates. All right, here we go, So 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.520 try reset and then really hit test and then it'll 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:28.080 it'll go cool. Wait, you're testing your right hand, which 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.520 is not your dominant hand. Well, that's part of the problem. 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:31.959 I didn't want to get I don't know how much 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.080 people want to hear about it. But I'm I'm I 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.000 used to be ambidexterous as a kid, so I settled 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.280 in on some things I do, laugh some things I 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.120 do right, So you'd really want to, in all fairness, 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.800 you'd really want to measure both my hands and make 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:52.600 an average well know, because I make it lower. Do 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.400 reset and test real quick, really pushing test all right? 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:06.959 So ah huh six now you hit spencer. Man, we're 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.880 doing it in the place you did you good yesterday? 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:18.400 Didn't see That's the thing, man, if that machine was 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.640 any good, you'd enter your age in and it'd like 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:32.800 palibrate like handicaps. Bison doesn't care how you prolonged. All right, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.760 I'm gonna stand up. Is it ready to go? So 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.000 you guys, you guys didn't stand up to hit it, 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.000 just hit tests reset and and then tests reset and 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:51.559 then test okay, reset and then test okay fifty nine 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:57.959 point six. I'm gonna make you guys feel real good 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:04.280 right now. Hold on, you felt you came in hotter yesterday? 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:18.520 Sixty two two? Who dialing the chords in and stuff? 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:29.240 Training my whole life apparently, Yeah, just squeeze it and 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:40.920 you make a girl you got a growl. Well, if 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:45.320 you hit him with two fists, it'll count sixty. I'm 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:51.760 gonna pass this on to my John. Here comes the one. 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.640 Oh yeah, yeah, sixty one. So you didn't you didn't 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:02.679 do as good as you did yesterday. You're come on, 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:08.880 John seven, strongest man in the room. See, I don't 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:14.440 trust this machine. Now, how could my group have gotten 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.240 so much stronger overnight? It's hey, I think it's a 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.520 lot about technique, I really do. I'll hand that back 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.160 to you. And what other industries use that, because, no 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.559 doubt they don't make that for archaeologists. So physical therapy, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.439 uh in doctors and stuff they'll use to see how 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.680 people's hands are improving if they were injured. Ergonomics as well, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.040 so just designing knife handles or steering wheels or all 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.199 that sort of stuff that you need to grip. That's 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.840 what this kind of machine is for. And you guys 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:45.720 have a pinch tester too. We have a pinch tester 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.200 and everyone hates the pinch tester because it's awkward. Yeah, 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.280 it's real awkward. What other kind of when you're doing studies? 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.040 What other kind of do you ever have? Anything we 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.280 need to like bite strength or anything like that, or 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.520 we've never done bite strength it. Um. That would actually 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:06.480 be interesting because Neanderthal teeth are worn down because they 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.440 used their mouths as almost a third hand to grip stuff. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:12.760 And so we can when we look at the indertal 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.400 teeth and skeletons. Uh, all of their front teeth are 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.160 just completely gone because they're holding you know, leather or 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.880 meat in their teeth, holding the other part of it 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.400 in their hand, and then they've got a knife in 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.240 their free hand to cut. So bite strength with the indertals, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.920 are you deducing that all based upon toothwaar? Yeah, toothwar 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.520 already all have some video. Oh no, no video. The 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.880 thing about me is I'm a Neanderthal and this is 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:46.640 my uh, here's no very interesting. Here's a no thing 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:48.760 we talked about yesterday that I wanted to get your 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.360 feedback on, and you'd heard of it, but I want 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.440 to hear more of how you guys have heard of it. Um. 0:13:54.520 --> 0:14:00.200 We recently had a Coronado expedition expert on and she 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.400 had found a number of she'd found a number of 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:07.480 Coronado sites in the US that in preparation for that 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.160 interview I was reading, Um, I can't remember a guy's name. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.640 He's kind of he's frustrating to read. But he wrote Coronado, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.200 Night of the Pueblos and plane Planes. Yeah, classic volume. Yeah, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:25.160 irritating author. It was, yeah, yeah, it's just like he 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:31.040 really uh went he went out of his way to 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.080 be like, well, you see, it wasn't that unusual to 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.000 come into a village and cut everybody's hand off. You know, 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.760 this is you gotta remember the times, right, You're like, 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:48.760 that seems a little excessive even accounting for the times. However, um, 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.440 and there were many chroniclers of the expedition who later, 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.080 you know, it's hard to keep track of who. You know, 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:56.840 some guy twenty years later he's like, oh and I 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.000 remember this, and anyhow you can put together a pretty 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.280 good idea of what went on. But um, of of 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.160 little interest to Coronado experts, but of interest to me. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.560 As they encounter some bison hunters in the if I 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.680 remember right, they were on the Yano Esticado the Texas Payhandle, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.920 and they encounter some bison hunters and they are they 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:25.320 have dogs. It's pre horse. They have dogs. Um. They 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:33.680 had had no personal contact with Europeans. They remarked. The 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:39.000 Coronado people remarked on how un blown away they were. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.200 They asked them, what are you? And then they had 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.760 described how they would when they're skinning bison. They would 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:50.480 sharpen stone tools with their teeth. I had never heard that, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.120 But you've seen and heard of that. Yeah, I mean 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.720 I've there's all sorts of interesting and unique ways to 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.280 re sharpened tools or to make tools, and yeah, you 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.840 can do it, especially on really thin edges. Um does 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.280 that that's got to show up in the on the 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.080 dental ware of someone. I suppose it just depends on 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.440 how often you do it. Um. But what do they 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.640 even mean by sharpened tools of your teeth? Well, I mean, 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.280 we got a flake right here I can demonstrate now. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.440 But uh, you know, when you've got an edge that's 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:25.040 fairly thin, if you just can basically just push off 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.880 a couple of flakes with your teeth, just pushing off 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:33.000 those tiny little chips will resharpen that edge and your 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.640 mouth like you but then you're imagine you're using your 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.760 eye teeth, but then your mouth is full of well 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.080 I think in the past people would have been used 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.760 to having stuff in their food, and we don't see 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.600 like teeth getting worn down. Well, a couple of thoughts. 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.320 One is that you ought to see probably micro cracks 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.720 and the enamel if somebody is doing that on a 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.240 regular basis. The other thing is is that when you 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.080 have groups that are in areas well. For one thing, 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.960 farmers who are grinding corn and and matats, all sorts 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.919 of mineral matter gets in their food, in their corn, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.879 and it does tend to wear down the molars in 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.240 the back hunter gatherers um that lived on the planes 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.359 during the Middle Holo scene, when you had just a 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:18.000 whole lot of dust blowing, heavily worn teeth as well 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:19.639 for the same reason, right, you just got a lot 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.600 of grit in the diet. We were talking yesterday a 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.800 little bit about um this is also sort of on 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.119 the edge of our primary activity yesterday, but we were talking, 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.760 we were making jokes about that, like me at forty eight, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.600 I probably wouldn't have been there. And I know you said, 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:43.440 like as like the Clovis people's and you said, I 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.320 guess rightfully. So he said, we don't know because there's 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.800 not enough. You know, you don't have a bunch of 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.280 skeletons laying around to determine, to accurately determine like where 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.399 the holes are in sort of the age demographics. But 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.760 what are what are some thoughts on hunter gatherer life expectancies. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.159 Probably in the forties would be my guess, what is 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:08.480 happening to them? Just a lifetime of um being out 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.320 all the time, having to uh hunt for your meals, 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.080 track down those bison. Those bison that way a hell 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:17.280 of a lot more than the one that we were 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.560 butchering yesterday, even though we were butchering a fairly large animal. Right, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.399 so you think it was it would have been like 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:30.359 a no medical care, Yeah, right, good point. Things that 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:37.200 would be like appendicitis, appendicitis, tooth infection, abscess too abscessed tooth. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.520 There you go. Um, so any number of things. Which 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.480 is not to say that they were unaware of or 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.840 lack knowledge of medicinal plants. I mean, one of the 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.520 things that's really striking is that a lot of the 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.120 medicinal plants that we are discovering today we're already known 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.640 ethnographically uh and could have been known for a very 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:00.320 very long time. So while they were quite capable, um, 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.200 there were probably things medical emergencies that would have been 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.520 simply beyond their ability. I guess it would have been 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.000 almost a statistical issue too, that by the time you 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.520 were in your mid forties or whenever, it's just time 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.080 for something bad to happen, you know what I mean. 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:21.119 It's just the amount of exposure to physical risk of 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.720 hunting these big animals, crossing rivers, falling off cliffs. Right, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.800 Disease just just random things, random things, um that you 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.840 just came on suddenly and you just couldn't cope for 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.360 any number of reasons, right. I mean, we live very 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.919 cushioned lives and we've got lots of fail safe and 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.160 backup systems. There were no backup systems. Is there any 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:47.479 way to guess with with ice age hunters? Is there 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.520 any way to guess when, like what what was a 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:57.359 peak reproductive age for females? Uh? I do not know 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.160 the answer to that. But actually, let me add one 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.080 thing to what I was just saying about how tough 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.359 life was. One of the things that's come out of 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.359 the recent genomic evidence, the DNA evidence, is that between 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.920 about sixteen thousand and about thirteen thousand years ago, there 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:19.520 was a sixtyfold increase in population of people in the Americas. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.600 So what that's telling you is that when they got 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.280 into this new continent, actually things were pretty darn good. Now. 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760 I don't know what the start value was, you know, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.959 was it a hundred people and you know multiply that 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.680 or was it a thousand people? But the fact that 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.639 that population increased so rapidly in such a relatively short 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.000 period of time tells you that they were actually quite 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.399 successful at moving into this new environment. Obviously, things are 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.400 going to plateau, and again you still have those sort 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.600 of random events that will come after a lifetime of 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:54.960 hard living, but overall, the population was really quite successful. 0:20:55.720 --> 0:21:02.000 The there's a new book uh coming out by a 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:07.120 historian named Dan Flores, and he has a chapter um 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:11.080 called Clovincia the Beautiful, and he has a chapter about 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.679 a little bit about what's known about Clovis and then 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.280 speculations about Clovis and the mysteries of Clovis. And in 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:24.960 there he has a observation that that, you know, a 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:30.200 theory that I had considered, um, when looking at how 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.720 quickly the Clovis hunters seem to have been able to 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.560 colonize new country, you could you bring up this idea 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:39.679 of why and then I've read what people would say. 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:41.600 You know, you can't rule out that there was an 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:45.879 element of curiosity. Um. Oftentimes you'll see huge migrations of 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:50.240 people that are propelled by hunger, propelled by warfare and um, 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:52.920 and you know, and there's not correct me if I'm wrong, 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.480 there's not like evidence of it being warfare propelling the thing. 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.399 And he brings up he he talks about these various 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:05.280 cases of of known times in the more recent historic 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:12.840 record where people have stumbled upon islands say that had 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.080 never had humans on them. And and so like the 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.240 whalers in from the eight hundreds who would land on 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.359 these islands and there's no human record on the islands, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.399 and they would talk about literally walking up in and 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:33.480 lifting birds, plucking birds like fruit from trees, or just 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.440 being able to walk up, you know, with tortoises, you 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.720 walk up and simply load them onto the boat. Um. 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.440 Animals that couldn't even comprehend what they were. And then 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.440 you look at a place where you go to Yellowstone Park, 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.800 where it hasn't been there that you've had a hundred 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:56.320 year a hundred plus year absence of human hunting on 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.600 that landscape. So only that's only one years of an 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.400 absence human honey, because not very long. But you can 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:08.800 get remarkably close to wildlife there that is not used 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:11.280 to human predation. And he throws out this idea that 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.960 perhaps what propelled you along really quickly is the minute 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:20.320 something got hard and you went a few miles yonder 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.879 there were animals that had never seen a human predator before. 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.439 Just keep chasing the dumb ones, and so yeah, like 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.359 why is you do? You hunt for your while in 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:31.159 a place for a while, and ship gets kind of like, 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.360 I don't about these guys walking up to me anymore. 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.800 Bump along, and then you're back into a place where 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:39.920 you can just have it pretty easy. And that might 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:45.679 explain like why you sped through the continent so quick thoughts, Well, 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:47.680 a couple of things. I mean, one is is that 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.480 these are animals. You're coming into a continent where animals 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:54.080 have been dealing with some pretty substantial predators for a 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.240 very long time. Right, Mamiths and mastodons have dealt with 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.359 giant short faced bear, saber tooth cats and the like. 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:07.280 They're not completely asleep at the evolutionary switch, right, Um, 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.880 they know how to deal with predators and they learned 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:15.320 really quickly. Okay, Uh, would that have work for people? Yeah? 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.639 I mean I suppose the first person in UM is 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:21.280 going to have that advantage. Is that going to pull 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:26.760 people from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego? Probably not. Is 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.560 that going to have some sort of local payoff? Well? Yeah? Possibly. 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.399 Resource depression always sets in right as soon as you 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.440 start hunting. The first day of hunting season. The first 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.440 gun that goes off, where are all the elk? Right? 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:43.640 They're gone? Um? And in the bugle in the bugling 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:47.200 of the bulls seems to wrap up in a real herd. Yeah. Yeah, 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.000 so animals respond pretty quickly. Um. But back to what 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:54.000 you said at the outset about curiosity. I mean, one 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:56.479 of the things about curiosity is that it's actually an 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.800 adaptive strategy. And I probably he said this on this 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.280 show before, but basically, for hunter gatherers is your insurance 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:06.840 is not knowing what's going on and available where you are. 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.320 It's knowing where you go next when things get bad, right, 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.560 And so by continually kind of looking over the next 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.440 hill and just seeing what's out there and knowing where 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.880 you can go gives you that advantage. So that curiosity 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:22.960 actually has a built in adaptive function that works really 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.920 well for people on a on a completely unknown new landscape. 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.280 So instead of saying he was curious about what was 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:32.280 over there, he was scouting. Absolutely absolutely. And you know, 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:34.800 you got a band, you've got a bunch of teenage 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.240 boys or girls, just say why don't you going to 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:40.080 walk about? Go look over that hill, see what's in 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.880 that next valley, and come back. You know. The other 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:46.040 thing is these people weren't looking for a place to 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:49.159 settle down. I mean, these were these were They weren't 0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:53.680 sedentary agricultural people trying to find the most beautiful valley 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:57.040 in North America to raise their family, to build a 0:25:57.040 --> 0:26:01.399 log cabin. Now that's it's absolutely right, Clay and and 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:05.040 but at the same time, they're not like sort of 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.439 fur trappers, you know, going into the Rockies in the 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:10.439 nineteenth century, where they're just you know, coming in grabbing 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:13.080 resources and going back out again. They do have to 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:16.080